2006 Anvil SuperMaster pros and cons

[walawalaoxenfree]

There's a 2006 Anvil SuperMaster jig for sale locally.
I am tempted even though I'd only use it, very occasionally,  for brazing.
Any recommendations? Pros and Cons?

Amir Avitzur
R"G  Israel

[Anthony Pappalardo]

As someone, a hobbyist, who has built one frame, with plans for more, I'd say buy it if it's affordable. I know that a frame can be built freehand, but I know that if I attempted to do it that way I'd be fumbling around trying to get everything aligned.

I shopped around for a 2^nd hand frame jig for quite some time before finally buying an Acadamy Tools LCFF, which is a perfectly serviceable jig, but not near the jig that the Anvil looks to be. 

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Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 12:15 PM
To: Framebuilders <frameb...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Frame] 2006 Anvil SuperMaster pros and cons

 

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[Mark Bulgier]

Sorry, zero experience with them, I hope someone who's actually used one will chime in.  But they're very much oriented towards welding.  This may not be any problem at all for brazing, but look for things like, does flux getting on the jig mess it up at all?  

I assume the jig on offer is plumbed for argon, hopefully all that can be removed to get it out of your way.  Maybe another Anvil user or TIG framebuilder would even buy it from you.

The offset of the frame centerplane from the jig surface is much larger than I'm used to.  That has advantages for access to all sides, but it makes the jig take up more space in the shop. Anyone know, can those projections, out from the jig surface that hold the frame, be removed when not in use?  Not an issue if your shop space is large or if the jig is being used frequently.

If your shop is small and/or jigging frames is something you rarely do, then I'd prefer a good flat surface and some easily movable fixtures to hold tubes above the surface.  Easy to put 'em away in a box between frames, and then your flat surface is useful for general fabricating tasks.  Fixtures that just lay on the surface by gravity are not good for production, too slow and not repeatable, but they are so much cheaper than a dedicated jig.  The extra setup time they require might be acceptable if you're just building one frame, or one every blue moon, presumably not in a hurry or to a price point.  You can get someone like Alex Meade to make them for you, or make them yourself.  You have some machine tools, or access to them, don't you Amir?

For a first frame or the first dozen even, the "jig" could be just commercially-available V-blocks laid on a flat table.  Pick one tube diameter as your basis and shim up the V-blocks for any smaller tubes.  Run a tube of your basis size through the head tube with reducers.  

Using traditional steel sizes as example, 

1-1/8" DT and ST could just lay in the V-blocks.  

1" TT would need  .062" shims under its V-blocks

For the HT, make reducers that shim the ID of the HT to fit a 1-1/8" bar (I'd use solid steel bar for weight, holds everything down better).

Building this way it's advisable to make a couple subassemblies, usually the DT/HT joint (the "hockey stick"), and the ST/BB joint.  These can be tacked or pinned and checked for alignment and correct angle, taking away the need for the jig to hold them that way.  Some guys even braze the hockey stick completely before putting it in the jig, which has advantages.  Even the great Nagasawa made his frames that way, good enough to win countless Keirins and World Championships.  Maybe still does?  My info on him is old, dunno what he's doing these days.  

I wouldn't completely braze the ST to the BB myself, makes fitting the DT harder, but maybe someone likes it that way.  I'd just tack.  Checking the alignment can be done with a "stick with a nail thru it", laid on one face of the BB shell, set the pointer to touch the tube out at the top end, then compare to the other side.  Good solid tack once it's aligned, so it won't move while fitting the DT.

I'll not get into how to put the rears on, but that's just a couple more pieces of cheaply-made kit.  As a professional, I preferred putting on the rears at the same time, so the BB shell was completely brazed in one go.  But for a small-scale builder or hobbyist, it makes sense to put the rears on after the main triangle is brazed.

If you don't have your flat surface yet, I'd look for one in cast iron (ideally) or steel, so you can use magnets to hold the V-blocks in position.  Another option is to just put heavy things on the tubes to hold them down.  Check out the Bicycle Brothers video of the Jack Taylor shop to see them doing that.  They made, I dunno probably thousands of frames that way.

Remember that tubes are not straight, so laying them in V-blocks means the ends may not be in the same plane.  Best to roll the tubes on the table to mark the high spot before mitering, to keep the wow in-plane.  Better jigs only hold the tubes by their ends, so you can let the wow go wherever it wants without affecting alignment.  But that's only a real advantage to someone in a hurry.

Mark B in Seattle

[tnort...@gmail.com]

Mark,

That was a great reply. Just primed my second frame and I used your method. As a woodworker I have a large shaper table that works great.

Tom

 NE Ohio

[Alex Llama]

To piggyback off of what Mark said, V-blocks are a great, cheap starting point. I found it worthwhile to buy cheap toggle clamps from Harbor Freight (https://www.harborfreight.com/500-lb-horizontal-toggle-clamp-96233.html), and bolt them to the V-blocks to hold tubes in place - it helps a lot since you end up scooching everything around a bit to get things to line up.

If you want to avoid the shimming; you can get matched sets of V-blocks and position them with the V facing to the side rather than up - that puts the center-line of each block within the same plane (assuming, of course, that the V of each block is at the same height when placed on its side), so you don't have to bother with shimming regardless of tube diameter. Pretty sure I came across that trick on Velocipedesalon. Either way ... any route you go with the V-blocks & a surface plate, it's a good idea to take your time and check, re-check, and re-re-check everything with a surface gauge, angle gauge, etc.

Cheers,

Alex

[Mark Bulgier]

Alex Llama wrote

"To piggyback off of what Mark said, V-blocks are a great, cheap starting point. I found it worthwhile to buy cheap toggle clamps from Harbor Freight (https://www.harborfreight.com/500-lb-horizontal-toggle-clamp-96233.html), and bolt them to the V-blocks to hold tubes in place."

I think my V-blocks are too hard to drill for bolting on toggle clamps.  I haven't tried drilling them, but I think they're kinda hard. (Super scientific jargon there I know.)  I could buy softer ones but I like my Brown & Sharpe antiques.  Clamping the tubes in hasn't seemed necessary.

(random photo from GIS, not my actual blocks)

They do have those slip-on screw clamps to hold the tube, but I end up taking the tubes out and putting them back in enough times that I don't bother with the clamps, they slow me down more than they help.  I'm more likely to just lay a random piece of scrap steel on the tubes to weight them down.  Not very professional-looking but I git 'er done.  You don't need to hold the tubes down while trial-fitting, only when it's time to actually tack or pin the joints.

"If you want to avoid the shimming; you can get matched sets of V-blocks and position them with the V facing to the side rather than up" 

My V-blocks aren't tall enough when laid on their side, for the bottom bracket shell to clear the table. Plus then the tube falls out, since I don't have toggle clamps!  Bigger, heavier V-blocks would definitely help, but I don't want to buy all new ones, I have a lot of these B&S, all matching.

I have pieces of  1/16" stainless cut into pieces the right size to go under V-blocks.  On a  typical frame with the TT smaller than the DT by 1/8", you only need 2 shims, for the 2 blocks under the TT.  I glue them on with Loctite so the shims move with the V-blocks.  If I had a 1-1/4" DT with a 1" TT (not likely), I could just double up the shims.  Remember to "ring" them together like Jo blocks to get that last tenth of accuracy! <jk>

One more bit of advice that a newby might find helpful: to keep your blocks for flopping around, get those right-angle magnets that turn off and on.  Regular right-angle welder's magnets are helpful too, but I'm fond of "Adjust-O" magnets. (I bet they were pleased with themselves when they thought up that name, eh?)  Being able to turn them off is nice, for precise positioning, and to clean off any steel chips that stick to them.  

Mark B