Brass/carbon brush & insulated ring assembly for routing power through the fork & head tube

[John Clay]

Does anyone have photos of the components & methods used to accomplish that?

Is the frame used as one conductor, or are these nifty brush contacts two conductor affairs?

Thanks,
John Clay

[Hubert d'Autremont]

Hi John, 

There are some good pictures on this fellow's flickr. No personal connection. https://www.flickr.com/photos/83311771@N04/12978922415/

Though what I am unclear of is how the circuit is completed. I assume this works because the headset is steel, but i assume he might be using some sort of insulating adhesive. Not really sure but I have been hoping to figure this whole system out as well with a sealed bearing headset. 

The other issue I see is how little room you have to work due to the crown race. I've thought about reversing this so you have a ring inside the headtube. The main concern being repairability and ruggedness of the system. You definitily wouldn't want something coming apart and binding the steering...

Hubert

[Hahn Rossman]

Hubert
That is done like hirose or toei where the ring is on the steer tube,rather than pressed into the head tube. It's exactly backwards to the way herse did it, and smarter IMO.  The steer tube has a much smaller hole drilled in it.  The part in the vent hole needs to connect to a wire in the downtube.

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[Hubert d'Autremont]

Hahn,

I've seen tge toei style super clean, but

without a steel headset it would still need an extra wire. 

Hubert

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Hubert d'Autremont
802.598.0406

[Mark Bulgier]

Hubert d'Autremont wrote:

> I've seen the Toei style super clean, but

> without a steel headset it would still need an extra wire. 

 

Not sure what you’re saying, wouldn’t aluminum also conduct just fine?  Change that to “a conducting headset” and we’re in agreement.

 

I know of a couple headsets that had plastic cups, no longer on the market that I know of.  And I suppose there are ceramic balls, but surely those are rarely used, no? Anyone using the frame for ground could just forego the ceramic balls, not a great tragedy…  Finally, I think I heard of some Shimano headsets that had some sort of plastic insulator between the cup and the bearing race, though I never saw that with my own eyes.

 

Checking the headset for electrical continuity before installing is a quick’n’easy step, and most headsets will pass, so that isn’t a reason not to do this.

 

Mark Bulgier

Seattle

 

 

 

[M-gineering]

The brakecable will also carry current, unless the lever housing or the
bars are plastic. Anodized aluminium insulates, but then the layer has
to be perfect and undamaged.

Don't use a system like this with a battery and direct current, that
could damage the bearings

--

mvg

Marten Gerritsen
Kiel Windeweer
Netherlands

[Hahn Rossman]

Hubert

I've had problems with nicely anodized (CK) headsets. If you remove it where the cup is pressed in it works fine. The Miche headsets I mostly use have clear anod that doesn't cause any problems. You could of course make two of the plunger things and have one touch the insulated ring and the other bear directly on th esteer tube?

Hahn

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[John Clay]

Thanks everybody. My search for the component hardware hasn't turned up all of the necessary hardware yet....where do you guys get it?

Philosophically I like the idea of a set for each wire but with headsets that don't have other impediments do you have no intermittent hi resistance episodes through the bearings? I haven't heard of any but the question comes to mind.

Thanks,
John

[Hubert d'Autremont]

Mark, 

agreed "non conducting headset. 

I primarily use CK headsets and have always had a problem with conductivity. Hahn, good point about the removing some anodizing, I will definitely give it a try. 

The other issue though is that the copper foil has to be connected with a non conductive adhesive, correct? 

John I think all the parts for this could easily be made with a lathe. 

Hubert

[Greg Christensen]

I know electric motors suffer from what is called "electrically induced bearing damage"  when current passes through the bearings and creates pits causing the bearing to fail prematurely.  Does anyone know if this is a problem with this system being discussed?

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Greg Christensen
South Dakota School of Mines and Technology
501 East Saint Joseph Street
Rapid City SD 57701

[Eric Keller]

it might be, but it's trivial to replace the bearings on a headset nowadays. Motors see a lot more hours, current and voltage than this.

[Mark Bulgier]

Thanks to those who reminded me that good anodizing is an insulator.  I knew that but I didn’t think it through.

 

Marten mentioned the rear brake cable, which I thought was brilliant, and we can add both derailleur cables too if the controls are on the handlebar.  But those parts are often plastic nowadays, and even an all-metal lever is probably anodized. 

 

I suppose with carbon-composite levers you could run a little grounding wire through the inside of the lever from the brake cable to the steel clamp that attaches the lever to the handlebar…  (Assuming you aren’t using carbon handlebars.)

 

Nah, removing a little ano from the headset where it goes in the frame is easier and probably more reliable.  But keep the brake cable method in the back of your mind in case someday you need to use a completely non-conducting headset for some reason.

 

Do hydraulic disk brakes provide electrical continuity?  I sometimes see a metal mesh over hydro cables, or what looks like the signs of metal mesh showing through the vinyl outer cover, but I don’t know how they’re made.  Hydro disks for the road are probably the next trend, though maybe not on the same bikes that have internal wiring for lights.

 

Mark Bulgier

Seattle

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[Brendon Potts]

I'm super excited to see a discussion on this because it's been something I've wanted to do for a long time, but I haven't really found a way that seems completely solid.  I have found a place to get a good selection of carbon brushes, if you end up going that way. It seems to me that relying on the headset to be a good conductor might not be the best idea.  I don't really have a clue about the conductivity of various kinds of grease, but I wonder if that couldn't have some, maybe small, effect on how the system works.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I can’t speak about the types of internal contacts that are being talked about but I have serviced and installed countless generator systems that use the frame and head set as a return loop. Even with loosely adjusted headsets the lights work. I’m sure the balls and cups were steel every time and the greases likely the typical white lithiums or basic brown auto stuff with a possible green Phill or red Bullshot in there. Andy.

 

Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY USA

 

From: Brendon Potts

Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 12:55 PM

To: frameb...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Frame] Re: Brass/carbon brush & insulated ring assembly for routing power through the fork & head tube

 

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[Eric Nichols]

A two-conductor solution would be most useful for the popular Secula Plus taillight, which reportedly won't work with an unwired ground path.

Eric Nichols

[M-gineering]

On 3/13/2015 2:01 AM, Eric Nichols wrote:
> A two-conductor solution would be most useful for the popular Secula Plus taillight, which reportedly won't work with an unwired ground path.
>
> Eric Nichols
>

Lots of current rearlights are not ground to mass, as it is more
reliable to use a two wire set-up. As lights or hubs could still make a
ground, this removes the possibilty of introducing a short circuit if
you swap the leads.

Nothing to stop you from making your own ground connection at the
mudgueard though, but it might be less reliable in real world conditions
with oxidizing bolts etc, the reason we went for twin leads

[John Clay]

Thanks for the brush information Brendon. I hadn't run into that supplier. I Have a crash damaged frame/fork that will be helpful in sorting things out.

That BQ hasn't reported bearing circuit path problems suggest it isn't an issue, it just seemed like a "dirty" connection to me.The bearing problems in motors that I'm familiar with involve induced high voltage/short rise time transients generated by the khz switching frequencies of the power transistors in the inverter section of variable frequency drives.

Has anyone here used those (Brendon's link) brushes, or similar? I suppose that the HT would be threaded for plastic brush holders, or perhaps just use epoxy. Ideas, experience or observations would be helpful.

Foil is available. I guess the lead would be soldered to a tab before mounting (or bedding of that portion) below the brush track, then bedded in an insulative adhesive with the wire passing through a hole on the neutral axis (wheel straight ahead orientation). Though in Herse's day I wonder what would have been used; "better living through chemistry" was in its infancy.

Thanks,

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[John Clay]

Hubert,

I am seriously brain dead this morning.....or maybe this week! Thank you for the link!

If anyone has other, favorite brush suppliers they'd be willing to share....

Is this what getting old is all about? If so, it's for the birds.

Now, coffee....but where did I put it?

Cheers,

John

[Eric Nichols]

Another place to look for design ideas would be the horn contacts in older automobiles. The operating environment is similar: slow movements over a limited arc. These tend to be spring-loaded brass buttons running against a contact ring.

Carbon brushes in electric motors are designed to operate in a much different environment.

Eric

[John Clay]

Thanks Eric. I was using "carbon" operationally, not literally; should have said "conductive".

In any event, someone has pretty much the perfect capsule sitting on their shelves. I'd like to know who.

Hubert's link shows a single wire, large tolerance arrangement. I'll go that route if nothing better comes up but I'd love to find a tiny, 2-brush assembly. I'll keep looking. Y'all please let me know what else you find.....or already know.

Thanks,
John

[John Clay]

Though brass brush on brass foil might be rougher on the foil than carbon brush on brass foil. I have more searching and tech info to get, sort through.
John

[John Clay]

Thanks for the link Brendon.

This has been languishing but now that I'm working on a new frame for myself ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674615273680 ) I decided to take a stab at a carbon brush unit. I just called Arrowhead electric (Brian) and ordered a BH11570S holder with brush and cap. It looks workable but I'll have to find out the hard way. My intent is to make a receptacle for the holder on the backside of the HT, residing in the DT. If all of that works out then I'll move on to an insulated ring on the steerer. That shouldn't be difficult but somehow I think that getting the right brush & holder assembly might be tricky.

In the mean time, if anyone has come up with a workable solution and is willing to identify the components, please enlighten us! I'll certainly let the list know how my efforts go.

[John Clay]

Subsequent to ordering a carbon brush/holder/spring assembly I stumbled onto this (thank you Jim Langley):

http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/ReneHerseBicycle.html

Scroll to the bottom; the last three photos tell the story. Clever and low tech! Can any of you who have implemented this device identify the brush and ring you used? I can get there on my own but it sure would speed things up if I knew exactly which pieces work.

The approach I intended to use, and will still prototype, is the inverse of the Herse approach: brush in the downtube, ring on the steerer. But the Herse approach is very slick and I may give it a try.

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[tomm]

Going with a true replica aside, it's a DC system using the frame for ground the wire is positive, so, why not just use a loose wire & connectors?

Just seems a lot of work and in a wet climate what begs the question for me, most likely because it's drizzly, melting light snow here.

cheers,
tom

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 5:24:45 AM UTC-8, John Clay wrote:

[M-gineering]

On 12/9/2016 7:52 PM, tomm wrote:
> Going with a true replica aside, it's a DC system

With a dynamo DC is very unlikely.

[tomm]

Right and if you'd go too fast they'd blow the light bulb so people began putting zener diodes in them for that ... pulsed DC.

still wet here,
tom

[Mark Bulgier]

John Clay wrote:
> Subsequent to ordering a carbon brush/holder/spring assembly I stumbled onto this
> (thank you Jim Langley):
> http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/ReneHerseBicycle.html

> The approach I intended to use, and will still prototype, is the inverse of the
> Herse approach: brush in the downtube, ring on the steerer.

Herse steerers didn't break at the hole that I know of, but I still like the way you propose (the "Hirose way"*) for putting a smaller hole in the steerer. Just big enough for the single-conductor wire.

Maybe put the hole in the side of the steerer too, to be on the neutral axis in fore-aft bending.

Another small advantage: you don't need the spoke hole for holding the sprung brush from moving while you assemble it. The Hirose-style sprung brush only has to deal with the outside of the steerer, which is free of obstructions; assembly and disassembly should be easy.

*In case you don't know, I'm just calling this the Hirose way because Japanese framebuilder Hirose has a video on YouTube showing how to make it. I don't know who invented it.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[John Clay]

I didn't know about the parallel thread, here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/internet-bob/Xp9E5ewybBQ

Yes to the steerer hole neutral axis placement regardless of method (Herse or Hirose), but doubly so for the Herse.

I'm looking for the Hirose video...no luck yet. If you have the link.....

The thin slip ring material (Hirose method) looks to be tricky wrt crown race installation. I'm guessing that a brass brush might damage such thin material, rendering carbon a better choice.

Right now Herse feels easier.

• Might be able to use thin wall copper water pipe for slip ring material on the HT ID. That would make a brass brush seem more acceptable than if used on the thinner material required of Hirose method. It would also make the material readily available.
  
• The wooden plug as brush holder seems pretty doable. Hahn alluded to a different brush holding method in the steerer but I can't suss it from the photo. Was a cylindrical brush holder brazed inside?  https://12237664974819460210.googlegroups.com/attach/efb6d9d107414/DSC_0595.JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG85GlqKlKEEHa2GmC2E8f-ymWKs_P4B8w08iXYkQM_4GB29JDU6xB7gFqbxxuhpnTzgaQOrZkpvzczEawt37Cj3W2ABClIYaj3Uc86E6lFSylVrrc
• It wouldn't be difficult to come up with plastic insulator for the brush.
  

It's definitely a fiddly detail and a suitable, weather proof, easily separated connector coupled with outside routing has it's attractions.

Thanks for the input.
John

[Nestor Czernysz]

Definitely have wanted to do this.
I have a question somewhat pertaining to this. What tubing do you use for internal lighting wire routing in fork
blades in particular.
I had some nickel 200 1/8 o.d. .020" wall thickness. I'm out. Any recommendations? Suppliers?

Thank you.

[James Swan]

Hi Nestor,

I’ve only done this once, and I (foolishly) did it after the fork was totally built; but that’s another story.

This is the supplier and product that I used.

On Line Metals - 0.125” OD, .028” wall, T316 stainless steel seamless tubing

<http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=14817&step=4&showunits=inches&id=902&top_cat=1>


Also highly recommended is the “Premium 22AWG" wire from Velo-Lumino:

<http://www.velolumino.com/installation-hardware22.html>


Jamie Swan
H: 631-754-1457
C: 516-238-6782
W: 516-403-5945
http://www.jamieswan.net
http://www.limws.org
http://www.liatca.org
http://www.wattscampbell.org
http://www.webb.edu

[Nestor Czernysz]

Thanks Jamie.
Velolumino is great. Got some of that wire.
I was thinking this, because it's annealed.
http://www.componentsupplycompany.com/product_pages/stainless-steel-annealed-tubing.html

[James Swan]

I don’t have a horse in the race, but the stuff that I got was quite ductile. You could easily bend it around like soft copper tubing.

Jamie Swan

H: 631-754-1457
C: 516-238-6782
W: 516-403-5945
http://www.jamieswan.net

http://www.limws.org
http://www.liatca.org
http://www.wattscampbell.org
http://www.webb.edu

[Nestor Czernysz]

Thank you.

[John Clay]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674059450424

I'm attempting to use a commercial brush assembly. 0.010" copper shim stock is on the way. Mock-up in 0.020" paper with PVC insulated stranded copper wire, 24 ga if I remember correctly, allows the lower headset bearing race to slide down to the boss.

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[John Clay]

Jamie,

Aside from losing 0.008" in ID is there any reason not to use copper tubing, like this: https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=18326&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1288&top_cat=87

It's less expensive, easy to shape. Trickier to silver braze onto the relatively large mass of the fork blade? And does that 0.008" ID loss matter with the Velolimino wire you suggest? I have some 50N and can do the SS.

[Jon Norstog]

John, list:

Copper and bronze/brass you can solder to steel with plumber's solder.  It's not strong enough for frame joints but is just fine for sticking metal things together that aren't subject to huge forces.  No lead! 

jn

"Thursday"

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[Alistair Spence]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:40 AM, John Clay <nice.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm wondering about the fatigue life of the copper, Vs. the stainless? Not saying you shouldn't use the copper, because I don't know, just wondering if that might be an area of concern?

I recall a thread years ago where it was mentioned that brass tubing carrying brake housing in a top tube had cracked. The builder switched to stainless and never had the problem again.

Alistair. 

[Eric Keller]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Alistair Spence <alspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering about the fatigue life of the copper, Vs. the stainless? Not
> saying you shouldn't use the copper, because I don't know, just wondering if
> that might be an area of concern?

I got some welded stainless tubing from McMaster that I plan on using
for this. I don't remember it being that expensive. I'm pretty sure
copper is a much worse material for running wires if it is of any
length.

This discussion led me to think about the slip ring on the steerer.
Looks like it might be possible to adapt a 1" copper plumbing coupler.
Never tried to machine copper though, and it will end up being very
thin.

[John Clay]

Then stainless it is. Thanks Alistair! 

Sent from my iPad

[Mark Bulgier]

Alistair Spence wrote

> I recall a thread years ago where it was mentioned that brass tubing carrying brake housing in
> a top tube had cracked. The builder switched to stainless and never had the problem again.

Hmm, I wonder what happened there? We built thousands of Davidsons with brass guide tubes for the rear brake cable inside the TT, don't recall a single one cracking. I was only there for 10 years though, and might not have heard about it if some broke after I was gone.

I still have two Davidsons with those brass tubes myself, going strong at ~25 years old, but that's a small sample size. At least it shows that cracking isn't inevitable, not in the first 25 years anyway.

I'd like to chalk it up to skill, but we had some slightly inept apprentices at times (I think Alistair knows who I'm talking about), and doing the TT internal routing was one of the tasks a low guy on the totem pole would do sometimes. I think our system was pretty foolproof.

Oh I just re-read what Alistair wrote (yes I should have read it more carefully the first time!) and I see he mentions carrying housing. Our brass tube was just 4 mm diameter and carried the cable, not the housing. The brass tube ran between two housing stops. I like that system better, never actually have run housing all the way through the TT, so I don't have any advice on that.

Never mind!

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[M-gineering]

On 12/20/2016 7:14 AM, Mark Bulgier wrote:never actually have run

housing all the way through
> the TT, so I don't have any advice on that.

My advice is don't, either it rattles, or with less clearance the cable
will rust solid

[John Clay]

The latest photos of my headtube mounted carbon brush assembly efforts are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674059450424

The brush had a rectangular cross section throughout; I filed it to produce a round cross section for about half its length. I had to reduce the diameter of the spring retaining disk on the spring end (as opposed to the brush end) in order to make it fit inside the threaded cap and yield reasonable brush stroke. I also added a brush retaining disk to the brush holder capsule; that was made by soldering a piece of brass sheet to the brush end of the holder, dressing it round on the OD and drilling a hole just large enough for the round portion of the brush to go through. The assembly has about 2mm of travel. Placement of the capsule holder on the HT is critical for assembly and also required some sculpting; lug choice will bear on this detail. One could braze it up with the lug installed as Mr. Hirose appeared to do. An insulated tail light conductor was soldered to the threaded cap. I used 0.015" copper sheet for the slip ring and my epoxy paint primer has been shown to provide good insulation. I think Mr. Hirose's single strand copper winding approach looks attractive though. Some other details need to be worked out but much progress has been made. All of that said, this approach to delivering power to the tail light is a heck of a lot of work. Honestly I don't see it as being remotely close to worthy of the effort as compared to using exposed routing and a suitable connector at the fork/HT location. It's holding up my current frame build when a single external connector would do the job and probably be (I'm guessing here) more robust in field conditions. I'm not sure I'll complete this exercise; I just don't see this as preferable to a connector or anywhere near being worth the effort regardless of how slick it is.

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[John Clay]

It's a new week and I feel refreshed; I'ce decided to complete the prototype. Then I'll decide whether or not to add it to this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674615273680

John

[John Clay]

The bike needs paint and a front rack before it's on the road but the slip-ring/brush assembly is finished, functioning and very sweet. A little bit of information here:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/35700856632/in/dateposted-public/

John Clay
Tallahassee, Florida

[David Parsons]

So the brush insert is fitted from the DT side and then you brazed the DT into place around it, or am I completely misreading your photo series?

[John Clay]

Yes, that's right.