Which frame jig?

[OldPueblo]

Question is simple.

You can buy any top of the line, manufactured frame jig on the market.

Which one do (or did) you choose, and why?

Looking for input as to the strengths and weaknesses of the various options out there.

Thanks guys!

[Doug Fattic]

It would be helpful if we knew a little more about how you design your frames and what kind of joining method you plan on using.  All fixtures don't have every function.  For example they may or may not have calibrations to indicate angles or lengths.  I like a fixture that has something to represent the center of the front wheel to measure from to where the bottom of the head tube should be.  Others estimate where it should be using trigonometry.  I can design a frame right on the fixtures I have made while others use full scale drawings or BikeCad and transfer those numbers over to their jig.  

If one is tig or fillet brazing into a bottom bracket shell, that requires a different type of fixture than if one is only using lugs.  I can build an accurate rear triangle (meaning the rear wheel is right in the center) with a true wheel, a straight edge and a simple T tool to hold the chain stays at the right angle to the bb.  Even some expensive fixtures can't do that repeatedly.  It will take me extra time however to do it my jigless way.  So the speed at which one wishes to build is an issue in what fixture works best.  And then that gets us into build philosophies.  So I am not sure your question is really a simple one.  

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan

[Andrew R Stewart]

Doug makes some good comments and I’ll add my own here-

 

I have a HJ Universal jig and I like it’s ability to be used for stems, forks and less then standard frames in general. It’s slow to set up (for me at least) and access to the joints isn’t the best. It does allow a rear canti boss attachment tool to attach to the jig. The protractor while is cumbersome is also nice to use as a reference tool on more then just the seat tube angle.

 

I have played with Doug’s sizing jig and do like it too. But it’s huge and also cumbersome. But it allows designing using the actual bike components (like seats on posts) and this is a great aid for the newbies who don’t yet have an eye for design yet. One issue is the large number of little pieces. It is best used sitting on a surface plate or table.

 

Which is what I would get before a jig anyway. I’ll repeat. Get a flat surface first. No jig will insure a straight frame.

 

I have played with a couple of Anvils and I am impressed at their construction. If you’re tigging the built in plumbing is neat. I would get a stand/roll around holder given the size and weight of these jigs. I don’t think I would suggest an Anvil for someone who miters to fit (by hand) or doesn’t design on a computer as the set up seems to me based on trig numbers.

 

The Hydra (Bike machine?) is very solid and massive. I wish I spent more time working with this jig but I haven’t so have little to say.

 

The Bringheli is quite affordable compared to most others. Not the easiest to set up as changing one aspect effects others. Also not the quickest to install and remove tubes from. There are a number of mods offered by others for this jig. I do use Joe’s fork jig and am happy with it despite the crude look. Joe’s stuff are the most common jigs found for sale used. I suspect more because of newbies choosing them for the low cost then decide later to move on from building.

 

There are a number of keel jigs out there. Great access to the frame on both sides. Using a steerer axis as a member the front end can be easy to visualize. Top tube support is usually lacking so tig of fillet will need some home made TT supporting methods. I just never felt right about this form of fixturing, everything runs up off a beam. Seems to me that building a non straight frame would be easy, but as I said the jig doesn’t insure a straight frame anyway.

 

The jig that I would very much look at if $ was no object is the Sputnik. His stuff is really well designed and attention to detail is great. (I just made some braze on fixtures that copy his). Jeff offers a nearly complete series of tools for jigging and mitering. The little I’ve played with his stuff has left me wanting it.

 

I look forward to more experienced builders adding their opinions about the actual jigs. But I’ll again reinforce Doug’s comments about one’s building and designing manor impacts which tools work best for them. Andy.

 

Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY USA

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[Jon Norstog]

I'm still using my old HJ Universal Jig, which I bought, with extras, years ago for $900.   It was never meant for 2" or "mid" bottom brackets, or shells much wider than 83mm.  Ditto for 20" BMX frames, with BB rise instead of drop.  Wide-spaced seatstays won't build up in-jig.  Had to do some strategic grinding to make it work for a machined headtube, and a tapered headtube is out of the question.  I've made adapters for 150mm axle spacing and had them made for mid and Spanish BB shells and for certain axle spacings.  You can not do a full-circle braze on a BB or ST joint because of lack of access.

The jig is fiddly and slow but it is accurate - its best feature is that it keeps all the frame tubes in a single plane.  It is good for making forks and has a pretty decent feature for canti bosses, etc.  You have to use your brain to get the most out of it, but that is true of most jigs. 

I thought I wanted and Anvil, but after using one realized that unless my miters were dead-on, .0001" perfect, the frame tubes could easily get out of plane.  

I guess I'll stick with what I'm used to.

jn

"Thursday"

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[John Caletti]

ANVIL

Fast, accurate, adaptable, very well made, easy to set up.

I love it.

I haven’t used the Sputnik fixture, but seems that if I didn’t get the Anvil for some reason, that would be a great option also. 

John Caletti

Caletti Cycles

www.caletticycles.com

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[gerald...@gmail.com]

If you are looking for a jig that is simple and flexible to use, look at the Brew frame jig.  Very reasonably priced, ample space in and around joints. I would say only draw back is lack of top tube support, but all other contact points are very solid.

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:12:17 AM UTC-5, OldPueblo wrote:

[David Bohm]

I think the OP was interested in professional “top of the line” fixtures.

 

Of course there are many other great ones all across the spectrum but certain ones just are not as capable as others.

 

I have had direct experience with the Brew frame jig and although capable the two most important things for me is ease of setup and the inability to make mistakes of which I am very capable.

 

Fixtures without location/witness marks are an example of that.  I have used bevel protractors/scales and when tired or just being stupid have miss-read them multiple times.

 

Here is a video of the Brew fixture setup.

 

https://vimeo.com/88553149

 

Compare that to either the Anvil or Sputnik which can be done in one minute or less and are absolutely dead-on with little thought or the possibility of error and the differences are clear.

 

All the best,

 

Dave Bohm

Bohemian Bicycles

http://www.framebuildingschool.com

 

 

From: frameb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:frameb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of gerald...@gmail.com

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 5:03 AM
To: Framebuilders

Subject: [Frame] Re: Which frame jig?

If you are looking for a jig that is simple and flexible to use, look at the Brew frame jig.  Very reasonably priced, ample space in and around joints. I would say only draw back is lack of top tube support, but all other contact points are very solid.

 

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:12:17 AM UTC-5, OldPueblo wrote:

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[Cliff McLeroy]

I watched the video for the Brew jig and thought it was a bit crude but simple and perhaps economical. I was surprised it goes for $1700. I know this is a low demand item but this seems pricey. I've been wanting a real jig the whole time I've been building but I've managed to build 10 frames fairly straight either jigless or with crude jigs of my own construction. 

-Cliff

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:12:17 AM UTC-5, OldPueblo wrote:

[Andrew R Stewart]

Cliff- If the Bringhneli price list is current, at $1500 his jig seems to me to be a better value. Not just lower cost but looks to have more stable support of various elements. I know of a few who have modded their Biringheli jigs with easier tube and axle holding designs and some scales added. IIRC Velocipede Salon had a rather lengthy thtread on this. I have his fork jig, bought used, which I have been happy with. Andy.

 

Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY USA

 

From: Cliff McLeroy

Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 2:16 PM

To: Framebuilders

Subject: [Frame] Re: Which frame jig?

 

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[Cliff McLeroy]

Thanks Andy. Just looking at the small image, the Bringheli looks like a better value. The Brew seemed to be crude but potential great for an amateur or low volume builder until I saw the price.

-Cliff

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[pe...@obikeco.com]

I have an Sputnik and a brew jig.

They are very much different beasts. Jeff buckholtz is one of the best tool makers out here and are designed to allow for precise repeatability. His jig (the Sputnik) follows that process. Quick to set up, accurate, and well thought out. I have some other fixtures of jeff's as well. I'd say i personally would like a little bit more working room on the plate side but it's not a real issue. It's also a shitbrick, once you lock it down your are hard pressed to knock anything out of whack if you bump into it. Jeff can also make any kind of custom features you want on it. The brew jig is in fact crude. It definitely works and works well considering it's simplicity and cost. I have made and am still making lots of mods to it. My biggest issue with it was not having any locators on it and it isn't super ridged. you sort of have to figure out your setup process which for me was to start at my head angle and "y" location or I have started by making my BB seattube union then working off that. The BB post and dropout fixturing doesn't lock down super stuff so if you bump it, things can shift. It is nice that it is purgable and super versatile though. I don't thing joes fixture is purgable, which may or may not be important for you.

Lastly, while you can braze on the Sputnik it would be wise to let Jeff know that when you have him make it. He uses some derlin parts as offsets or locators that I'm sure he'd make in metal if you were to do more brazing. (I have braze some in the sputnik but my derlin bits took a beating and I pulled a lot of the purge pieces out so as not to over heat then as well) I got the brew jig first and have since dedicated that as my brazing fixture since is all metal bits and it's not as critical on that fixture if you get flux and stuff on it.

I have also used the old arctos jigs which was a long long time ago but remembered it was a very capable rigid and super accessible jig. I can't remember who took over the torch on thema few years back but they were at either sac or Denver nahbs a bit ago.

Hopefully that is helpful.

[Andy Newlands]

Howdy,
One more frame jig to look at and one I have in my Strawberry workshop used for brazing and that is the Marchetti no. ML301/G. If interested, go to www.marchettispa.it and under Products click on "high-end dept. frames" and then ML301. There is a photo and a video.
Cheers,
Andy Newlands
www.strawberrybicycle.com
www.torchandfile.com
www.oregonframebuilders.org
www.handmadebikeandbeerfestival.com
ps. For further info contact Ms. Monica Marchetti at in...@marchettispa.it.

[amax...@yahoo.com]

Cliff, I'm selling my Bringheli if you're interested. Are you located anywhere near Austin, Tx? 

Andrew 

Sent from myMail for iOS

Thursday, December 1, 2016, 12:14 PM -0600 from Cliff McLeroy <karl...@hotmail.com>:

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[Tom T]

Andy,

What's the Marchetti Jig go for these days?

Thanks! 

[Andrew R Stewart]

Tom- If you have to ask... Andy (the other smaller Andy)

 

Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY USA

[Andy Newlands]

Howdy Tom,

Ms. Monica Marchetti can help.  in...@marchettispa.it.  

Cheers,

Andy

[John Clay]

To the OP: Doug Fattic's post is worth your attention if looking to purchase and use; or is there a different goal, like producing an improved fixture? A brain dump of the rationale behind everybody's choice is maybe a bit much to ask in a vacuum.

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL