Nickel-Silver and stainless

[Olivier Alonzo]

Hello all,
I'm wondering if anyone has experience using Nickel-Silver (RBCuZn-D)
for brazing stainless steel. I tried it on 304 tubing to make a rack
and it is hard to work with. It wets the parent but then barely flows
unless you back off the flame and wait. When adding filler it tends
jump a gap to join the present puddle. I'm using GasFlux rod and "B"
paste flux. I also tried a Bernzomatic rod with the same results.

I realize stainless conducts heat differently and oxidizes quickly,
but I've had success with silver filler (50N) on SS. The Ni-Silver
work fine on 4130 steel. I usually work with brass filler on steel.

Hoping someone has a tip? I know some people use Ni-Silver for fillet-
brazing SS frames or on SS lugs so I must be missing something...

Olivier,
Toronto

[wade barocsi]

Hi Olivier,

Nickel Silver works fine on 304 with the right flux.
We have a specialty flux for this purpose. Please give us a call if
you would like to talk about it.
This flux is not yet on our website, but it is in stock.

Thank you,
Wade Barocsi
CycleDesignUSA.com
(203)654-6230

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Framebuilders" group.
>
> Searchable archives for this group can be found at http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders (recent content) and http://search.bikelist.org (older content).
>
> To post to this group, send email to frameb...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> framebuilder...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders?hl=en

[Fred Parr]

"NAH"

 

Wade listen up those so-called chinese "glumpese" so-called nic-silver crap rods are not even close for bikeracks or any other part of a bike>>

 

I have correct rods and flux--- you don't so lay off?

 

PS any license to to sell my formulated products has expired .

Trade names remain property of Georgine Piper and F Parr

 

Web interest and distrubution can be used only by CycleDesignUSA

 

 

Any questions should be addresed to F Parr 520-364-1334

 

Quality is first and foremost you have my name on that now and forever

[Arthur Marks]

One further example that doing business with Fred Parr is always an
esteemed pleasure (rolling my eyes). Sorry to be a lemon, but I
really get sick of his (often incoherent) nonsense on this forum.
-Arthur

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Fred Parr <cycledes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "NAH"

[Daniel J Niedziocha]

I have had the same experience as Olivier using nickel silver and
stainless. Supposedly it works, but ive never had great success with
it. Gave up on it! I could get it to wet and build small fillets on
stainless (racks) but its just not very forgiving. I'm curious about
the flux, and how much of a difference it would actually make.

Dan N

[Fred Parr]

guys listen up,

I spent decades as a formula engineer and provided the brand "Fillet Pro"  for SS joining made by a USA mill with no issues.

So-Called nic-silver is offered for hard face and joining use but has zero enduse or quality for finer work like bicycles.

Both Wade an I have systems of flux and micro fine compatable rods to do these operations with?

 

They are made to do exactly what you are doing, by us and not some guess and by golly solution.

 

I retain those formulas that became concluded by use by active framebuilders in real time.

 

Experiment if you wish, but I have already been there and made adjustments to formulas to create workable systems.

 

As simple as asking what should I use? Bad rod nah, bad flux nah, use the correct system and no worries.

 

Freddy

520-364-1334 

[Alex Wetmore]

I tried it and had similar experiences to yours. I found that there is a very small temperature window where it will melt out into the stainless before you scorch the flux. I haven't tried it again since getting a gasfluxer, I bet that would help.

I ended up only using it for the most structural joints, and using 45% silver for the less structural ones because it was much easier to work with. If I were doing another one of these racks I'd use fillet pro.

On the other hand if you get really good with nickle-silver on stainless it'll probably make you a great brass on steel fillet brazer.

There are photos here, including some terrible ones of the nickle silver work:
http://alexandchristine.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Racks/Cycle-Truck-Rack-in-Stainless/9994414_s4r9Vp#!i=683467566&k=TxGWy

I'm better at brazing now, but expect that I'd still find this filler hard to work with.

alex
________________________________________
From: frameb...@googlegroups.com [frameb...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Olivier Alonzo [olivier...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:09 AM
To: Framebuilders
Subject: [Frame] Nickel-Silver and stainless

Olivier,
Toronto

--

[Fred Parr]

Thanx Alex,

I knew these issues since way back when and have tried to make a workover solution affardable for them.

To engineer and provide is a wait and see with no profit portion to our groups of our love

[jon norstog]

Alex, list:

"Nickel silver" covers a lot of territory.  So does "stainless"  I had pretty good lick using Harris 15 on Revere ware pots.  It was file-hard.  Welco 17 files like brass but doesn't stick to some stainless steels very well - doesn't "wet" and flow.  Fillet pro might be good, it's formulated for joining structural-grade stainless, and I've seen other people get good results with it.

jn

"Thursday"

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

[Olivier Alonzo]

Thanks all. My joints didn't look great either. Lumpy and hard to flow
or build up. I didn't overheat once I adjusted my technique, seeing
little burned flux or oxidation. Well it did happen during practice
and in that case the filler stopped dead.

I just found an archived post of yours Alex saying a (discontinued)
GasFlux white paste worked great. So that must be it? It seems
Aufhauser has a SS specific flux ("flux17") too. I also found some
pics of superb Ni-Silver filleted joints by Dave Anderson, the flux
looks different.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/colossi-factory-tour-shenzhen-china-18595.html

We'll see how it goes.

Olivier

On Jan 17, 3:28 pm, Alex Wetmore <a...@phred.org> wrote:
> I tried it and had similar experiences to yours.  I found that there is a very small temperature window where it will melt out into the stainless before you scorch the flux.  I haven't tried it again since getting a gasfluxer, I bet that would help.
>
> I ended up only using it for the most structural joints, and using 45% silver for the less structural ones because it was much easier to work with.  If I were doing another one of these racks I'd use fillet pro.
>
> On the other hand if you get really good with nickle-silver on stainless it'll probably make you a great brass on steel fillet brazer.
>

> There are photos here, including some terrible ones of the nickle silver work:http://alexandchristine.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Racks/Cycle-Truck-Rack-i...

>
> I'm better at brazing now, but expect that I'd still find this filler hard to work with.
>
> alex
> ________________________________________

> From: frameb...@googlegroups.com [frameb...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Olivier Alonzo [olivier.alo...@gmail.com]

> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:09 AM
> To: Framebuilders
> Subject: [Frame] Nickel-Silver and stainless
>
> Hello all,
> I'm wondering if anyone has experience using Nickel-Silver (RBCuZn-D)
> for brazing stainless steel. I tried it on 304 tubing to make a rack
> and it is hard to work with. It wets the parent but then barely flows
> unless you back off the flame and wait. When adding filler it tends
> jump a gap to join the present puddle. I'm using GasFlux rod and "B"
> paste flux. I also tried a Bernzomatic rod with the same results.
>
> I realize stainless conducts heat differently and oxidizes quickly,
> but I've had success with silver filler (50N) on SS. The Ni-Silver
> work fine on 4130 steel. I usually work with brass filler on steel.
>
> Hoping someone has a tip? I know some people use Ni-Silver for fillet-
> brazing SS frames or on SS lugs so I must be missing something...
>
> Olivier,
> Toronto
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Framebuilders" group.
>

> Searchable archives for this group can be found athttp://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders(recent content) andhttp://search.bikelist.org(older content).

[Fred Parr]

Nah again, not even in the ball park>>

Rude and crude

And Fillet Pro is only one solution where there are many, a Gas Fluxer retards flow on SS so it is ruled out, it seems to work but adhesion of the joiner alloy is retarded and incomplete, the altife element in the flux Branded as SS Light allows distribution of complete eutectic silver bearing alloy filler to adhere and create a structural mass.

 

So-Called nic-sil rods have no silver in them and do not react to a point of adhesion on SS without a loss of the intended eutectic temp.

 

Boron additives increase temp needed but create a circus of alloy filler lay down and require more temp to finish.

 

Nickel / Bronze ratio must be very low to suceed at all.

 

Common offerings will not work well and are not an option for fine bicycle work, period.

 

I have a few lbs of nic/silver made to my specs in 1973 while working with G.P. Wilson that can join SS with almost the quality of "FilletPro" and without the silver.

 

However on todays market it would cost more than a silver solution.

 

Cost of these materials is the only restriction for having them here for all of us to use.

If I was a rich man I would make them all and give them out freely.

 

Best case is use "Fillet Pro" but even plain bronze can work under skilled hands and a really active flux, so you choose?

 

 

Searchable archives for this group can be found at http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders (recent content) and http://search.bikelist.org (older content).

[Dave Anderson]

Well.....This is unfortunate...."rude and crude" Freddy? "Not even in the ball park" Freddy? Really? 

I've stayed out of this because I didn't have a dog in the fight, but now, I guess, unfortunately, I do. In short, Freddy, you are wrong.  Nickel silver, as the filler referenced is commonly called, works well in certain stainless on stainless applications, and is the only filler to use, in my opinion, for some applications. Freddy, as you may recall, we discussed this before once over the phone. As you know, I related to you my experience with silver based fillers on martinsitic stainless steels and the related risks of Interfacial corrosion in certain circumstances, and you agreed. I've worked with stainless for years and have probably built as many bikes as anyone, out of the material, especially with respect to lugged bikes, and have also consulted with a metallurgist about related issues and processes. As a result, I have a pretty good idea of what works. If you think my work is shit, then so be it, but for those that don't, please know that I use silver bearing alloys for lugs and Nickel silver for stuff like bridges and canti bosses. It works VERY well and has the benefit of staying clean and shiny for a long time, whereas silver tarnishes in a manner of hours. 

To give you an example of what works for me, if anyone is interested, that is, see this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/5938968358/in/set-72157627197497120 The seat lug was brazed with silver and the seat stays were attached with Nickel Silver.....and before anyone says anything about the small fillet, please know that this was ring brazed from the inside with a good deal of filler and has a substantial fillet on the inside. Here is another example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/6373013761/in/set-72157628073038133 Here is an example of a bridge and rack bosses: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/6307129803/in/set-72157628039779644/ , and Canti bosses, rack bosses and seat stays: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/5562983222/in/set-72157626360131104  All brazed with Nickel Silver. Test joints have confirmed that these types of stainless on stainless joints age better and are stronger than similar ones brazed with a silver bearing filler. As always, your mileage may vary and so I recommend doing your own testing as well.

I probably wouldn't fillet braze a whole stainless bike with nickel silver, but I wouldn't use a silver bearing alloy either, unless its painted, because I don't like how silver fillets tarnish...but then, that's me. The same would go for a stainless rack, if it will not see paint, I would TIG it or use nickel silver.

What's sad is that with the exception of the small amount of Nickel Silver rod and flux that I use, all of the brazing products that I have used in recent years have been Cycledesign products, and I have often recommended them to others. That, of course, will now change....The truth of the matter is that there are other products out there that work well, many of which are less expensive.

And for the record, both the rod and flux that I use for Nickel silver are of excellent quality and made in the US.

Sorry for such a long response everyone! (You should have seen the first draft!) :-)

Sincerely,

Dave

David Anderson
Anderson Custom Bicycles
www.andersoncustombicycles.com
dand...@andersonbikes.com
651-324-0095

[Fred Parr]

The rude facts are much more heat was required and the count of contact adhesions is less than 10% of a joint done properly.

Sure it looks good from the freeway and may last, but it is flawed from the condition it leaves.

 

This issue was tested-proven-and concluded over four decades ago using professional aircraft plant process investigation.

 

Further re-investigation and re-formulations have been obtained at a cost of more than $130,000 US dollars and done by three US wire mills since 2001 with the same conclusions, Nickel Bronze requires excess heat and remains unbonded but appears fully bonded.

The industry word is "Scabousis" .

 

This issue was re-addressed in 2011 when I asked about using the original formula of "Welco 17" to defray costs to help builders.

At that time a conclusion was that even using and promoting 17 with a point of silver in it as was first offered could not meet insurable adhesion and as the provider I would be liable for failure.

 

Cost drives people to accept less than the best, I however will remain in Howards mind set, Zero Defect was the way and only way at Hughes...

 

My portion of providing these so-called products has been done at enormous cost in dollars and time, no stone was left to subjective ruling and the objectives were and will continue to be tested for security and potentials then beta tested well prior to any possible offer for sale.

 

D Anderson falls into the catagory of high skill and may very well be able to exceed the norm with products not intended for uses?

 

What about others? Most will not?

 

As for asking some engineer about migrations in metal, DAH? that is what I do and so did my father and his father before him.

 

My personal quest to provide superior products at my personal cost is not for any business intentions and never was, it is and if allowed to continue is to provide the highest advantage to builders to excel in their craft.

 

Truth not fiction what you see is not what you get when brazing is employed and each joint is the product of the operator and is not ever going to be an exact match from another operator.

 

Lastly Nickel Bronze rods offered in retail supply store vary so that factor alone is risky.

 

In 2009 the last usable product offered that could pass muster was discontinued from production and is no long available except from nos stocks.

 

Almost all usable correct products are vanishing and being replaced by overseas mills to defray costs even US companies hide the sources but the quality tells the tale.

 

I don't sell products and for a short time I sold at cost to help build up the number of builders out there, I have donated urgent fixes to master builders in trouble and to novice builders as well, each and everyday since Don Walker and I suggested a National level showplace for all the meet and show has cost me in cash and time and required my filing a bankruptcy in 2009 to deal with massive hidden engineering costs.

 

I did and have done only since I believe we should have first rate quality and anyone should be able to gain enough skill to build for themselves.

 

For the record

I don't like cast lugs as offered either and I don't like the ungoing deceptions of those that provide tubing and lugs out there.

 

Taking advantage of the captive market is normal for them.

 

Back to Nickel (silver) Bronze in my opinion the source is critical and most of it sitting on shelves is not of any use, I suggest relying on Henry Folson at henryjames dot com for a quality version that is trust worthy. All related products can be trusted from them. Including his versions of cast lugs.

 

Anyone attempting to play that cuts cost on joiner materials is foolish.

 

So Silver is up in price--so what?

I don't get any of that price the brokers do, I am a victim just like all are.

 

AS for SS tubing made for bicycles? Nah, much more can be done and current offerings don't blow my kilt up much.

 

I am sorry if Anderson is off in some smoke over my comments, oh well? I know exactly what I am doing and don't chat about mystery issues with some other engineer to source subjective conclusions to validate guess and by golly.

 

I use industry std methods and they are followed by industry certification and all products related are certified for the specific uses that are advertized.

 

I can't waste any more tme of the readers on these lists with attacks on my methods and formulas, all are proven and remain superior so what and why bother.

 

If it works for you, do it but promoting without a shred of valid baseline is silly? So it looks good from the freeway so what? I think it means you have too much spare time?

 

I will endorse the use nos All-State 11 or Welco 17 nos that is not some heat number replacement which is how industry id's filler/joiner alloys.

 

OK?

[Suzy]

On 18 January 2012 12:55, Fred Parr <cycledes...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

For the record

I don't like cast lugs as offered either and I don't like the ungoing deceptions of those that provide tubing and lugs out there.

Why so?  IME well cast lugs are a joy to use, and make for a really nice frame.

 

--
Suzy Jackson
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com
http://suzyj.blogspot.com

[Fred Parr]

Hi Suzy,

can't take time to answer that right now, but as far as Anderson, guess what, I spoke with him and he is using by choice the correct fluxes and rods which are not common stock in most retail venues that in fact have become filled with generics.

 

Beware of labels, the contents may barely meet specs and be contaminated by use of recycled ingredients.

 

Cast lugs look great but since Henry I have only seen styles not precision?

Style is?

 

Don't need any lugs never did since our grandparents were kids, OOPS

 

That is just me, not important unless some large gap needs to be filled and then I know what formula makes up the gap.

 

For the record, my pal Henry pulled off the single most important production of the 20th century and nothing out there has been better since.

Let the Lads and Lassies go play and fancy, good is good and they find that out.

 

If I had to provide a record machine fully lugged for a star I would depend on Henry for the best possible build up parts for pure speed.

 

Speed Lass, not fancy never fancy over here?

 

Much Love Freddy

[Fred Parr]

How about answering Oliver with a straight answer, there is no reason the two products he is trying to use won't work?

Using a more active flux is possible of course but the Gas Flux products should be just fine, I have used them with no problems and so have hundreds of other people.

Remedy is not indicated, somewhere there is a step not being done or something?

Sure we could send him another and higher quality rod and flux but it won't be noticable in flow if he isn't getting flow with the gasflux products?

 

There are at least twenty flux formulas commonly sold that do work with nickel bronze and SS I can't imagine that Oliver is not getting it to work, best to keep doing test joints until the heat issues come into his control with those products.

 

After chatting with Dave Anderson last night, and we compared notes on SS joining and quickly found that we were on the same page and had adopted exactly the same products and methods and the only tidbit that I have is a couple of extra additives in my custom but otherwise he is using the same basic formula and has for sometime.

 

Those formulas all came from the same roots and are industry std for SS and used in countless venues.

 

But I take issue with what is a task that has been done for decades with the products Oliver has, and it should work?

 

Sorry that I can't run over to Oliver's side and fix whatever is wrong but I don't think trying one of my fluxes "Yet" ? is the solution, Henry swears by those products and I hope he chimes in with a workaround...

 

next step would be call him on the phone and ask if he can recognize the problem first?

 

Thanks Freddy

[Olivier Alonzo]

A little update. I got my hands on Cycle Design's flux, and it made
the difference. I tried it on 304 stainless, 3/8x0.035 & Gasflux rod.
The flow was still a bit finicky compared to what I'm used to
(practice will help), but I was able to drawn the filler around with
the flame and built nice fillets. The flux didn't soak off easily like
the Gasflux B in warm water (W. Barocsi didn't have that issue, hotter
water could help), but the flux residues were flaky and easily brushed
off with a wire wheel or AO cloth. Looking for forward to building SS
racks with Nickel-Silver!

[Alistair Spence]

The only time I worked with nickel silver was by accident. I was
building a couple of stems and when the brazing began I grabbed a
couple of rods of nickel silver that I had lying around. A friend of
mine had given them to me for experimental purposes and I had (rather
stupidly) decided to store them next to my regular C-04 rods.

So anyway, I'm brazing away and things are going ok, but I just
couldn't get things to flow like they normally do. There was also more
sputtering happening as the rod melted into the puddle. I was getting
the job done but it was requiring more heat and a more deliberate
manipulation of the torch. The filler wouldn't flow unless I really
forced it to.
I ended up doing about half the brazing on each stem before I figured
out what was going on. At which point I switched back to nickel bronze
C-04 rod.

I use the Gasflux type B-4 flux (it's white instead of blue). I don't
know if that had any bearing on how the nickel silver rod flowed, but
I mention it just in case. It soaked off without issue in hot water.

The nickel silver fillets were harder to clean up. Both because I
didn't/couldn't lay the fillets as nicely as I can with a nickel
bronze rod, and because the resulting fillet is harder, more resistant
to filing.
I've been riding the stems for a couple of years. They'e held up just
fine but I wouldn't choose to use the nickel silver rod again if I had
another joining option that was viable.

Alistair Spence.
Seattle, WA.

[Boedie]

I just want to say, "Freddy, you're the best!" And I mean that. Thanks
for all you have done. My story to relate to this topic is one time,
many, many years ago, I brazed some stainless dropouts using standard
brass Gasflux rod. I didn't know any better. The brass didn't flow
real well as you can imagine. However, that singlespeed townie (with
disc brakes) has hauled many heavy loads over many a steep hill. For
this reason, I'll never be able to get rid of the bike. It's like an
ongoing experiment.
Chris

> > Searchable archives for this group can be found athttp://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders(recent content) andhttp://search.bikelist.org(older content).