TIG cups?
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Truls Erik Johnsen
Oct 22, 2014, 6:42:06 AM10/22/14
to Framebuilders
Hi guys,
Any exprience with the cups from Dogfab and Toxicfab cups out there?
http://www.dogfab.com/Cup_Kits_and_Pricing.html
http://www.radweldingsupplies.com/
I'm intrigued by the pyrex cups from Dogfab, but it might be just my
inexperience when it comes to TIG talking.
Truls
Any exprience with the cups from Dogfab and Toxicfab cups out there?
http://www.dogfab.com/Cup_Kits_and_Pricing.html
http://www.radweldingsupplies.com/
I'm intrigued by the pyrex cups from Dogfab, but it might be just my
inexperience when it comes to TIG talking.
Truls
Mathias Scherer
Oct 22, 2014, 9:21:13 AM10/22/14
to Truls Erik Johnsen, Framebuilders
Hi Truls,
I've tried a number of cups plus a few homemade things. These here
http://schweisstech24.de/popup_images/WIG--Jumbo-Gaslinse-2-4-mm-SR-9-20-Nr-
-45V64S_164_1.jpg
Are pretty much the standard stuff, easy to get, cheap, and they do the job
even with Ti. I'm not so sure about the lens on the very left, I had the arc
jumping to from the tungsten to the metall sieve or whatever this is called.
The longer cups work really well though, at least for me. The larger the cup
the better. With the seatstay-seattube cluster you want a bit of stockout of
the tungsten.
Looking forward to hearing other experiences.
Cheers,
M.
Am 22.10.2014 12:42 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
<t.e.j...@gmail.com>:
--
Mathias Scherer
Ludwig & Scherer GmbH
Wintringerstrasse 19
66271 Kleinblittersdorf
Geschäftsführer Mathias Scherer
I've tried a number of cups plus a few homemade things. These here
http://schweisstech24.de/popup_images/WIG--Jumbo-Gaslinse-2-4-mm-SR-9-20-Nr-
-45V64S_164_1.jpg
Are pretty much the standard stuff, easy to get, cheap, and they do the job
even with Ti. I'm not so sure about the lens on the very left, I had the arc
jumping to from the tungsten to the metall sieve or whatever this is called.
The longer cups work really well though, at least for me. The larger the cup
the better. With the seatstay-seattube cluster you want a bit of stockout of
the tungsten.
Looking forward to hearing other experiences.
Cheers,
M.
Am 22.10.2014 12:42 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
<t.e.j...@gmail.com>:
Mathias Scherer
Ludwig & Scherer GmbH
Wintringerstrasse 19
66271 Kleinblittersdorf
Geschäftsführer Mathias Scherer
Ari Rosenzweig
Oct 22, 2014, 4:50:46 PM10/22/14
to Mathias Scherer, Truls Erik Johnsen, Framebuilders
Truls and Mathias,
I have tried the pyrex from ck and the “monster cup” from arc-zone, but didn’t manage to get as good results as with the TIKA from UBI: http://www.bikeschool.com/store/?item_id=UB-TIKA&d=single
But maybe that’s just me not using the optimal flow settings. All of these cups are supposedly intended for titanium, where it’s critical to have complete gas coverage and loads of argon flowing.
I use the more standard size 10 cup with gas lens collet when welding steel. They work fine for me, gives me clean welds and saves a bit on argon compared to the big ones.
Rody @ groovycycleworks generously put up this video demonstrating how to make your own nozzle/cup/collet titanium capable combo. I haven’t tried it yet though.
Ari
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Sean Chaney
Oct 22, 2014, 7:19:38 PM10/22/14
to Ari Rosenzweig, Mathias Scherer, Truls Erik Johnsen, Framebuilders
The Tika cups sold by UBI are pretty great and a friend tells me that the cups made by Brad Bingham are even better. Both are expensive enough that you'll REALLY regret letting one hit anything hard though. If you're not welding titanium odds are pretty good that you don't need that much coverage. They use quite a bit of argon at about 35-45 cfh depending on stick out.
You get get about 90% there on ti with a $9 #12 cup and a big gas lens at around 20cfh and for steel I'm sure you can use much less without introducing any ill effects to the finished frame.
Mathias Scherer
Oct 23, 2014, 12:56:49 AM10/23/14
to Ari Rosenzweig, Truls Erik Johnsen, Framebuilders
Hi Ari,
I have tried the Tika, and it does indeed work very well. What I didn’t like was availability over here (which means I have to stock some 300 USD worth of cups to make sure work does not get interupted by me dropping the torch to the floor or anything like that), and the fact that the collets wore out after a while. I could see a ring around the chamfer where the back cap presses after screwing in after some time of use and for some reason that caused increasing contaminations in the weld. To be honest I never dropped or broke any of these cups and only wore out three of the collets (which can be bought separately) over the years though. My reason for changing to the standard cup was easier availability over here, plus it works well enough if your speed of welding is ok because once you go fast enough you dump less heat into the weld and the shielding is perfectly ok then.
http://fireflybicycles.com/1112
Check the link here and you’ll unfortunately not find my welding, but welds by Tyler Evans of Firefly, whom I consider a very good welder indeed. When scrolling down you’ll also see a picture of the torch setup he’s using.
I’ve also build some of cups to Rody’s design. Maybe I went wrong somewhere, but I found the result to be inferior to the standard size 12 cup. It’s not a big thing to make these, neither is it epensive, so by all means go ahead, build one and make up your own mind.
I have tried the Tika, and it does indeed work very well. What I didn’t like was availability over here (which means I have to stock some 300 USD worth of cups to make sure work does not get interupted by me dropping the torch to the floor or anything like that), and the fact that the collets wore out after a while. I could see a ring around the chamfer where the back cap presses after screwing in after some time of use and for some reason that caused increasing contaminations in the weld. To be honest I never dropped or broke any of these cups and only wore out three of the collets (which can be bought separately) over the years though. My reason for changing to the standard cup was easier availability over here, plus it works well enough if your speed of welding is ok because once you go fast enough you dump less heat into the weld and the shielding is perfectly ok then.
http://fireflybicycles.com/1112
Check the link here and you’ll unfortunately not find my welding, but welds by Tyler Evans of Firefly, whom I consider a very good welder indeed. When scrolling down you’ll also see a picture of the torch setup he’s using.
I’ve also build some of cups to Rody’s design. Maybe I went wrong somewhere, but I found the result to be inferior to the standard size 12 cup. It’s not a big thing to make these, neither is it epensive, so by all means go ahead, build one and make up your own mind.
Am 22.10.2014 22:50 Uhr schrieb "Ari Rosenzweig" unter <ma...@aricycles.com>:
Truls and Mathias,
I have tried the pyrex from ck and the “monster cup” from arc-zone, but didn’t manage to get as good results as with the TIKA from UBI: http://www.bikeschool.com/store/?item_id=UB-TIKA&d=single <http://www.bikeschool.com/store/?item_id=UB-TIKA&d=single>
Mathias Scherer
Oct 23, 2014, 12:58:28 AM10/23/14
to Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Truls Erik Johnsen, Framebuilders
Hi Sean,
Do you have a source for the Brad Bingham cups?
Thank you,
M.
Do you have a source for the Brad Bingham cups?
Thank you,
M.
Am 23.10.2014 1:19 Uhr schrieb "Sean Chaney" unter <vertig...@gmail.com>:
The Tika cups sold by UBI are pretty great and a friend tells me that the cups made by Brad Bingham are even better. Both are expensive enough that you'll REALLY regret letting one hit anything hard though. If you're not welding titanium odds are pretty good that you don't need that much coverage. They use quite a bit of argon at about 35-45 cfh depending on stick out.
You get get about 90% there on ti with a $9 #12 cup and a big gas lens at around 20cfh and for steel I'm sure you can use much less without introducing any ill effects to the finished frame.
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Ari Rosenzweig <ma...@aricycles.com> wrote:
Truls and Mathias,
I have tried the pyrex from ck and the “monster cup” from arc-zone, but didn’t manage to get as good results as with the TIKA from UBI: http://www.bikeschool.com/store/?item_id=UB-TIKA&d=single <http://www.bikeschool.com/store/?item_id=UB-TIKA&d=single>
Truls Erik Johnsen
Oct 23, 2014, 3:38:05 AM10/23/14
to Mathias Scherer, Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Framebuilders
Could'nt find cups, but found some nice pictures of the Kent Eriksen
workshop that I have'nt seen earlier:
http://stevetilford.com/2014/07/31/kent-eriksen/
http://fat-bike.com/2014/02/eriksen-husky-titanium-fatbike/
Truls
workshop that I have'nt seen earlier:
http://stevetilford.com/2014/07/31/kent-eriksen/
http://fat-bike.com/2014/02/eriksen-husky-titanium-fatbike/
Truls
Mathias Scherer
Oct 23, 2014, 3:59:22 AM10/23/14
to Truls Erik Johnsen, Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Framebuilders
Hi Truls,
Thanks for sharing these. That sort of brings me back to my own question
about manipulating chainstays. I'd certinaly like to see the tools these
stay were done with. They look great,
Cheers,
M.
Am 23.10.2014 9:38 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
Thanks for sharing these. That sort of brings me back to my own question
about manipulating chainstays. I'd certinaly like to see the tools these
stay were done with. They look great,
Cheers,
M.
Am 23.10.2014 9:38 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
Mathias Scherer
Oct 23, 2014, 5:58:37 AM10/23/14
to Truls Erik Johnsen, Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Framebuilders
One more thing maybe: When looking at the list of cups yesterday I realised
there was a Cup size 15 in the same length as the size 12 (ca.45mm). I
hadn't seen that one before. I do have the short version of it though, but
that one doesn't seem to work very well. My theory is that you need a minium
cup length to direct the argon flow, and to make it homogenous so as not to
draw in air with the turbulences when it exits the cup. I have contacted my
welding supplier, and he told me that this cup is no longer available, but
that there is a size 15 with 70mm length. I've ordered some of these.
Chances are that with the longer length and the larger exit diameter you can
actually flow more argon and get a wider shielded area. Not sure what the
handling in the tight spots will be like though.
Incidentally the above may have been my problem with the cups to Rody's
design. I feld that with the needle sticking out a little only (enough for
anything but the underside of the HT -DT joint and the SS-ST-Cluster) it
worked really well. With the tungsten sticking out enough for the said
joints I had a contamination issue (mind you, not horrible, but since it's
Ti I try to keep the standards as high as I can). My theory again would be
that with the short length of the cup the argon is not directed uniformly
and starts to mushroom out, allowing air to get sucked in. Does that make
sense or is it just rubbish?
As to the Kent Eriksen pictures: I've seen pictures of a similar frame which
got them best Ti welding or something like that at the NAHBS. Usually I get
some golden discolouration, or at least a "shadow" at the end of the HZ
where you can see a change the shade of the colour of the ti. On the
backside of the cable stops this usally is slightly more pronounced. That
frame was raw and there was nothing like that at all. I'm not sure it's the
torch setup though, I guess it also is lots of welding practise which helps
to get the speed which in turn helps to minimise heat. Difficult to say with
Ti because most people pulse, hence the amp ratings are not always
comparable. Just to illustrate things: I build twostroke pipes for old
Italian scooters as a bit of a passtime. This here is one for instance:
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7671567N
It's 1mm steel, Tig, no pulse. When I started doing these I'd weld with
30-40 amps. After a while I went up. Now I weld with 110amps, HAZ is much
smaller than it was at first, and welding time is down to about a third or
so of what it was at first.
Maybe it's again as much a question of how you do it as it is a question of
what you do it with.
Cheers,
M.
Am 23.10.2014 9:38 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
there was a Cup size 15 in the same length as the size 12 (ca.45mm). I
hadn't seen that one before. I do have the short version of it though, but
that one doesn't seem to work very well. My theory is that you need a minium
cup length to direct the argon flow, and to make it homogenous so as not to
draw in air with the turbulences when it exits the cup. I have contacted my
welding supplier, and he told me that this cup is no longer available, but
that there is a size 15 with 70mm length. I've ordered some of these.
Chances are that with the longer length and the larger exit diameter you can
actually flow more argon and get a wider shielded area. Not sure what the
handling in the tight spots will be like though.
Incidentally the above may have been my problem with the cups to Rody's
design. I feld that with the needle sticking out a little only (enough for
anything but the underside of the HT -DT joint and the SS-ST-Cluster) it
worked really well. With the tungsten sticking out enough for the said
joints I had a contamination issue (mind you, not horrible, but since it's
Ti I try to keep the standards as high as I can). My theory again would be
that with the short length of the cup the argon is not directed uniformly
and starts to mushroom out, allowing air to get sucked in. Does that make
sense or is it just rubbish?
As to the Kent Eriksen pictures: I've seen pictures of a similar frame which
got them best Ti welding or something like that at the NAHBS. Usually I get
some golden discolouration, or at least a "shadow" at the end of the HZ
where you can see a change the shade of the colour of the ti. On the
backside of the cable stops this usally is slightly more pronounced. That
frame was raw and there was nothing like that at all. I'm not sure it's the
torch setup though, I guess it also is lots of welding practise which helps
to get the speed which in turn helps to minimise heat. Difficult to say with
Ti because most people pulse, hence the amp ratings are not always
comparable. Just to illustrate things: I build twostroke pipes for old
Italian scooters as a bit of a passtime. This here is one for instance:
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7671567N
It's 1mm steel, Tig, no pulse. When I started doing these I'd weld with
30-40 amps. After a while I went up. Now I weld with 110amps, HAZ is much
smaller than it was at first, and welding time is down to about a third or
so of what it was at first.
Maybe it's again as much a question of how you do it as it is a question of
what you do it with.
Cheers,
M.
Am 23.10.2014 9:38 Uhr schrieb "Truls Erik Johnsen" unter
Wissahickon Cyclery
Oct 23, 2014, 11:31:20 AM10/23/14
to Mathias Scherer, Truls Erik Johnsen, Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Framebuilders
I have a modified version of the inverted cup that works great for me, I diffuse the argon with extra stuff beyond the basic screen that is in there. I also modify my collets so they work better and seal up inside the cup better. Luckily they are cheap since modifying an existing collet made of copper is really easy to trash. I can run a good amount of stick out but obviously there are many other measures taken to allow for this. Torch position, damming and pre-flow all play a large part of this. I consider Brad Bingham and Chris Moore (former Moots and Eriksen welder) to be the absolute best in the business if not some of the best welders in the world of welding. Their ability to prevent stop and starts being apparent is at another level.
Kent makes all his stays with a press. He has a video out there that shows a set of stays getting formed. I personally am surprised that he let that image out there. I won't show my process for making formed stays. It just took me too much effort and is what I feel is a separation point of my product.
I agree the Monster cup at weld zone looks good but I like the extra length of the inverted cup since it allows for more heat distribution. Plus that design won't allow for my extra diffusing stuff.
Cheers,
Drew
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Drew Guldalian
D.B.A. Engin Cycles
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com
Truls Erik Johnsen
Oct 31, 2014, 4:16:06 AM10/31/14
to Wissahickon Cyclery, Mathias Scherer, Sean Chaney, Ari Rosenzweig, Framebuilders
Thanks a lot for sharing your expereinces, guys. Much appreciated.
I'll play a bit with different setups the coming weeks. I got both a
"Jumbo" lens and std. large gas lenses, so with a recently filled 20l
bottle of Argon I'm ready to go!
T
I'll play a bit with different setups the coming weeks. I got both a
"Jumbo" lens and std. large gas lenses, so with a recently filled 20l
bottle of Argon I'm ready to go!
T
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