Meco Midget vs. Smith AW1A for shared shop

[ihab...@gmail.com]

Hey FBs,

I have an opportunity to purchase a small oxy/acetylene torch for a shared workshop where I putter around.

The new torch would be for brazing thin-walled material, but I want to make sure other uses are also covered. And I don't want to blow our budget.

The shop already has MIG and TIG equipment, and a large Victor torch with cutting and heating attachments. The large torch is not very useful for fine work, or brazing. It mostly gets used for cutting very thick steel plate.

The Meco Midget seems popular. I would order it from Tinmantech.com. I've never actually held one. Its replacement tips are cheap: just the final bit at the end --

https://www.tinmantech.com/assets/images/welding/meco/meco_propane_lg.jpg

The AW1A is stocked by a local welding shop that I would like to support. I have held it and it is very comfortable in the hand. The advertising claims that 'Smith's "Soft Flame" provides for easier puddle control and better penetration.' However, the tips are large assemblies that cost 3X as much as the Meco's --

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cyberweld_2270_9018646

My inclination is to go with the Meco, so I can get a variety of tips for less money, and so have a more versatile tool for all shop users.

Will I regret getting the Meco for our shop?

Kind regards,

Ihab

-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

[Doug Fattic]

Ihab,

Just to be clear the Meco tips you linked from TM are for propane and not acetylene.  They sell different tips for acetylene.  You want to use the right tips with each fuel.

I use both of those torches in my shop (and a Victor J-28 and Uniweld 71) so my framebuilding class students can see which ones they like the best when they buy their own equipment.  They feel very different in my hand and my suggestion is that difference is what would be the 1st factor on my decision list.  Because the AW1A is round I can rotate the torch handle with my fingers when I want turn the flame off of the joint for heat control.  The Meco's squarish shape requires a more exaggerated wrist move.  So I don’t like it as well.  The Meco tends to fall into the really love it or not like it category.  Some of my students really love it but they are in the minority.  However shape is not the only consideration.

Meco tips are awesome.  They work better than any of the others.  Their ones for propane have little holes around the main orifice that TM describes as a “ring of fire”.  This stabilizes the flame (propane flames are more finicky than acetylene flames).  Their acetylene tips are longer and create a more pointed flame.  

The Smith tips you linked aren’t your only Smith tip options.  They make a mixer/elbow (the AT60 for acetylene) that also allows cheaper small tips of various sizes to interchanged on the end of the AT60.  The smaller holed tips are the LT series and the NE series bigger.  The AT61 is for propane and also uses the same tips.  Because these Smith tips are not recessed they don’t work as well for propane as Victor tips which are recessed.  And the Victor tips don’t work as well as the Meco tips.  There is less difference between them for acetylene.  

The advantage of the Smith AW series of mixer/elbows is that they can be interchanged by hand without the need for wrench assistance because they have sealing O rings.  Those little tips on either the Meco or AT60 need to be secured with a small wrench.    

If you are ordering from TM Technologies I would definitely want their Ultralight hoses as well.  By the way propane is a lot cheaper and more convenient to buy and transport.    

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan        

[ihab...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Doug Fattic <fatticb...@qtm.net> wrote:

Just to be clear the Meco tips you linked from TM are for propane and not acetylene.  They sell different tips for acetylene.  You want to use the right tips with each fuel.

Ah got it, thanks. I actually linked from the acetylene tips, but the photo on the TM site is the same for both acetylene and propane! :)

 

... Because the AW1A is round I can rotate the torch handle with my fingers when I want turn the flame off of the joint for heat control.  The Meco's squarish shape requires a more exaggerated wrist move.  So I don’t like it as well.  The Meco tends to fall into the really love it or not like it category.  Some of my students really love it but they are in the minority.

Interesting. This would tend to favor the AW1A then; I want something most shop users will like.

 

Meco tips are awesome.  They work better than any of the others.  Their ones for propane have little holes around the main orifice that TM describes as a “ring of fire”.  This stabilizes the flame (propane flames are more finicky than acetylene flames).  Their acetylene tips are longer and create a more pointed flame.  

Wow, good to know.

 

The Smith tips you linked aren’t your only Smith tip options.  They make a mixer/elbow (the AT60 for acetylene) that also allows cheaper small tips of various sizes to interchanged on the end of the AT60.  The smaller holed tips are the LT series and the NE series bigger.  The AT61 is for propane and also uses the same tips.  Because these Smith tips are not recessed they don’t work as well for propane as Victor tips which are recessed.  And the Victor tips don’t work as well as the Meco tips.  There is less difference between them for acetylene

Oh so you can use Victor (not Smith) tips on the AT60? Wow.

According to http://goo.gl/27A7Gi, the smallest LT tip, LT103, is a #63 drill size. According to this chart:

http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Welding/tips.html

this is a bit on the large-ish side for -- say -- jewelry or whatever someone else is going to do with the torch. Hm.

But then I guess I could just get an AW201 and be done with it. :)

The advantage of the Smith AW series of mixer/elbows is that they can be interchanged by hand without the need for wrench assistance because they have sealing O rings.  Those little tips on either the Meco or AT60 need to be secured with a small wrench.    

Interesting.

 

If you are ordering from TM Technologies I would definitely want their Ultralight hoses as well.  By the way propane is a lot cheaper and more convenient to buy and transport.

Definitely +1 on the Kevlar hoses no matter where I buy from, and as for propane, we already have acetylene so might as well use it. :)

Thank you so much for your helpful advice!

Ihab

[Doug Fattic]

Ihab, the light hoses from TM Technologies are much stronger than the Smith Kevlar hoses.  One large drop of melted flux on a Smith Kevlar hose and they are toast.  For general shop use with a variety of users that might not always be careful the TM hoses are a much better choice.  They are a bit heavier than the Kevlar ones but much easier to use than standard rubber hose.  

The Victor screw on tips – the TE series for acetylene and the TEN series for propane – will not work with the Smith AT-60 or AT-61.  They are designed to work with the Victor UN-J mixer/elbow.  The UN-J can work with either propane or acetylene.  

My personal favorite torch handle is the Uniweld 71.  It is larger and lighter than the Victor J-28 or the Smith IW1A.  Its handle length is longer so I’m less likely to accidentally bump the flow control knobs.  It is not as well made as the Victor or Smith but also costs a lot less (although it doesn’t come with check valves like the J-28 does).  I use Victor (or clone) mixer/elbow/tips because I primarily use propane.  The Uniweld mixer/elbow/tip (all in one unit) works well with acetylene and advertises it is designed to work with all fuels.  But it doesn’t work as well with propane as those designed to work with propane.  

The point of mentioning propane is for others reading this thread for information.  The popularity of propane is that you can buy a BBQ tank almost everywhere with much longer store hours than the welding supply stores.  People in big cities find acetylene sales and delivery much more restricted.  My $20 refill propane tank lasts about 3 times longer than my $35 refill acetylene tank. And the difference between the cost of buying the tanks themselves is huge.  Using propane with an oxygen concentrator (instead of bottle oxygen) solves most rental, insurance and delivery restrictions that apply to their use in some cities.  

I’m repeating myself from my last post but the Meco propane tips are awesome.

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:10:30 PM UTC-4, Ihab wrote:

[Ethan Labowitz]

Doug is clearly more experienced than I re: these small oxy-fuel torches, tips, hoses, etc. I'm learning a lot in this thread. I have more experience with general oxy-fuel use than framebuilding-specific applications.

That said, Smith has a reputation for making high-quality stuff, and in my relatively limited experience their small torches are no exception. My favorite oxy-fuel stuff (for general purpose use, not just for framebuilding) is Smith and Oxweld/Purox. The latter was bought by ESAB and manufactured in Florence, SC until recently, when the powers that be at ESAB discontinued that line in favor of the Victor stuff, which is certainly serviceable but not as nice as Smith or Oxweld/Purox.

My only comment re: propane vs. acetylene is that once in a long while, you may want to use your oxyfuel rig for oxy-fuel welding (OFW), in which case my understanding is that acetylene is the only fuel gas that will work. There are admittedly relatively few uses for OFW nowadays--a power outage that disables your arc welding equipment, or a (likely non-framebuilding) situation in which the base metals cannot be cleaned/fluxed well enough for brazing. OFW is a bit faster than brazing, but carries a higher risk of blowing holes in thin stuff, and is associated with more distortion, but tolerates significantly more base metal dirtiness (scale, rust, dirt, oil, etc.).

Disclaimer: I work for Miller, which is owned by the same parent company as Smith.

Ethan

Appleton, WI

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[Jim G]

Just FYI, if you're on a budget, you can get new Hoke torches for $50 with tips on EBay.

-Jim G

[John Clay]

Doug and I have discussed this a lot, mostly off list. I have and use both. From a how it feels in the hand, how well it works perspective you won't regret either one. Both are excellent. You could flip a coin and would have given up nothing wrt the quality of your work, aka practice/skill will govern the results. Neither is a club, and you learn the tool you have. All that said:

With a tip installed the Meco is vastly lighter and more music wand like but both are so light it doesn't really matter. For bicycles I'd be happy with a 5 and a 3 tip. If you get the Meco I strongly recommend, 1) you also get one of the long neck tip tubes (7" or 10", I prefer the 10) and 2) you rotate the tube so that the bend near the tip is in the plane of the torch body. It is ridiculously natural feeling in my hand when set up that way. The valves fall to the fingertips. That's all nice but it doesn't equate to better results, just,...nice.

That all assumes you're using compressed gas cylinders for oxygen. If you might use an oxygen generator then be aware that the Meco requires higher oxygen pressure than the AW, 10 to 15 psi to get a roaring fork crown flame in my experience (vs more like 4 or 5 for the AW). Inexpensive medical O2 generators won't provide that pressure.

Since you already have a big iron with a cutting head, and assuming it isn't going away, you have that end of things covered. Given that circumstance, and use of gas cylinders, I'd select the Meco. If you didn't, and you wanted to own only one torch which could be used for cutting and brazing (no cutting head for the Meco) or an oxygen concentrator was potentially in your future then I'd recommend the AW.

In my early days I spent WAY too much time chasing the perfect torch and fuel. My best advice is to pick one based on the above, learn it well and never look back.

Good Luck,
John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[John Clay]

How I set up my Midget.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/14461542979/in/dateposted-public/