Move discussions and questions onto a new platform

[Summer White]

Can we please discuss the possiblity to move discussions onto a better platform. As mentioned by another user, Google Groups isn't that useful for technical discussion like for our group. Further the majority of posts created are more geared towards Q&A style.

What I would suggest, with my limited experience, is to move towards something like Stack Exchange for the Q&A. This way we would benefit from the features of that software, predominantly the answer voting systems but also better 'brand' recognition as a php framework (people would find it easier and more commonly).

For the technical discussions about the framework we would keep them closer to the git repository. Which wouldn't be hard because we already use Git hub. It is just a matter of updating the F3 website to point discussions towards Git hub and closing the google groups forum.

Can I please have other contributors input about this (where we should move to) and perhaps a vote in agreement to gauge where the community is about this issue.

[Summer White]

To clarify. I note we use Git Hubs issues regularly as a base for discussion. Its just a matter of updating the website to be more instructive that discussions are held there. There is only a very small section and it makes no reference to Git Hub as a base for discussion. It is also not very encouraging for general discussion. Its just a directive to point towards support on the google groups (if one understands what I mean but not encouraging?)

https://fatfreeframework.com/development

Technical support is available at the official discussion forum: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/f3-framework.

[Rayne]

Side note: we are already using Stack Overflow: http://stackoverflow.com/tags/fat-free-framework/info

[Vahrokh Vain]

So...

if I have a question, which is the preferred place to ask it? Here, StackOverflow or GitHub?

[Summer White]

I would have to believe most people would prefer stack overflow to ask questions in general. As for the F3 community I'd think those who like coming to the google group is because it is more active and older?

As for GitHub vs Stackoverflow, that would come down to professional experience I'd think. Those who are on Github are more than likely experienced developers who would contribute in a stronger way to the project. Whereas StackOverflow is where those who are starting off with F3 are.

I think this is a very positive split in the community. Under these considerations the google group is redundant. It neither promotes contribution to the project like GitHub does or offers a full support platform that StackOverflow does.

[ikkez]

Hey Summer. Well github should only be used to discuss issues and things that are directly related to the code. Any issues like Q&A are often being closed and refered to this google group, where we discuss things, ideas, best practises, new plugins and projects. I would not say that this board is redundant, as github is code-focused, stackoverflow Q&A-focused and this is a generall place to mingle with other folks. It's maybe not that fancy like modern board-ware but at least most people have a google account, and basic features like upvote and mark as answer are there, though rarely used. Nevertheless I like your ambition to push the community into the right direction. I think we also tried a gitter chat https://gitter.im/F3Community/fatfree which is not bad, but not used that often yet. I would suggest slack as another new space for the community, but it's not that different from gitter and probably more proprietary than google. last option maybe to host an own board (F3-based?) on our own website, but I think that doesn't make it easier at the end. looking back at the google board: it's not that bad. It has notification, your can reply by email, it has a RSS Feed, public usage stats, and it's commonly known.

[Nuwanda]

On a couple of occasions I've mentioned the bare-bones nature of this board and the need for a more dynamic public face for F3.

And that's what this board is; it's the interactive and promotional side of F3 for technical questions, general help, and social matters. It should be seen as a marketing tool. F3's been around for a while now and is getting a bit long in the tooth to be one of PHP's best kept secrets. It's a mature framework and it needs a mature public face.

I think the official site and docs are very well-presented; it's attractive and easy to find what you need. [Note: I have mentioned previously that many times a changelog feature lacked uodated documentation, which essentially makes that feature a HIDDEN feature. But that's unrelated to the ease of use and attractiveness of the official site.]

But when a developer ends up here at the Google forum, it's a bit of a letdown. It might sound shallow to suggest a more functional and attractive forum is what's needed, but if F3 is to reach a wider audience, it will certainly be one essential aspect.

I don't think the git versus Q&A forum discussion is a big issue. It's the job of the mods to steer those type questions onto Github where necessary. That said, the F3 community is pretty small and I'd err on the side of leaving most questions here unless obviously of a technical nature that regular developers would not be interested in.

[Summer White]

But when a developer ends up here at the Google forum, it's a bit of a letdown. It might sound shallow to suggest a more functional and attractive forum is what's needed, but if F3 is to reach a wider audience, it will certainly be one essential aspect.

Quoting myself. "but also better 'brand' recognition as a php framework". What you said, and what I said are hand in hand. What do you think ikkez? Google boards is a let down.

At the very least I want to see the documentation updated to better reflect the community spaces. Maybe I'll do this and push/submit the changes? Just give me a few days to put something together. I'm more in favor of centralizing the community (and honestly I'm not a fan of google groups). I certainly see the value in group mingling though. Reddit's subredits seem to do a great job of that, have you considered that as a better platform? Although its still not helping to split the community into three different spaces?

last option maybe to host an own board (F3-based?) on our own website

I actually wrote forum software with F3. That was my first project. Although I have no inclination of looking at that code after 6 odd years lol. I can only feel that I'd be embarrassed. I wouldn't be in favor of custom built forum software though. Don't get me wrong, I'd get a kick out of seeing something built but I know its just adding more complexity to the problem of achieving the end goal.

Any issues like Q&A are often being closed and refered to this google group, where we discuss things, ideas, best practises, new plugins and projects.

I'd disagree with this. Q&A should be refereed to Stackoverflow. Its a much better platform. I would suggest slack I love slack. I'd still disagree. I've tried slack with groups. Unless its an established work practice to use slack, it ends up stagnating. My experience at least (very limited experience, mostly game developement projects).

looking back at the google board: it's not that bad. It has notification, your can reply by email, it has a RSS Feed, public usage stats, and it's commonly known.

Reddit has all of these and I feel somewhat inclined that Reddit is much more well known than google.

Sorry for the awful quoting, I'm not sure how to quote user posts properly in google groups just yet. 

[Vahrokh Vain]

I have a couple of issues with these boards:

1) They are not as visible to Google search as other boards.

2) When someone is considering adopting F3, these boards give an "hobbyst" feeling, a lot like those freeware, pseudo-neglected projects sitting on Sourgeforge that give little confidence about their continued development.

3) I have yet to manage putting a screenshot in a post in a location I want. They all go to the top-center (and can't be moved) or in some random other place I have no control of. Dragging them just makes them double or triple in other random places.

4) I'd love seeing categorized threads. I mean: one sub-forum for F3's sessions management, one dedicated to SQL, one to views and so on.

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[ikkez]

I create a slack team for those how want to use it, please join at fat-free-framework.slack.com

I think this google board also has category and tag support, but I'm not sure if this is really helpful.. it feels like beating a dead horse, though I would sign the points Vahrokh Vain has written

[Vahrokh Vain]

Hello,

I have tried joining the slack.com team but it looks like it's only on invitation. It gives no "register" function, it looks like my email address should somehow have been added by a team leader.

[Summer White]

I'd add you but, need an email address? Does Ikkez have yours?

[ikkez]

yes I can see your email here in the setting. But it's funny.. I cannot add gmail as accepted host for self sign up, and I had to wait now to invite new people, as it claims we just exceeded the limit.. wtf !? that already makes me wondering if slack is maybe not the right tool.

[Summer White]

I prefer slack over irc, and hopefully some conversations can begin happening. Buts its certainly not the right tool. It helps for team based discussion and direct communication but I still promote to move away from google board to a different system.

[ved]

I honestly don't see what's the big issue with using google groups for these kind of discussions.

It's simple and effective. We can engage in discussions using the same flow as answering emails and there's no need to create extra accounts or anything of the sort.

There's also a "Mark as best answer" for a lightweight (a la stackoverflow) solution manager and the editor supports code formatting which is pretty much all we need (?).

Moving the discussions to a normal (hosted) forum would require that somebody keeps it updated and secure. People would need to create yet another account to discuss F3 (besides their github and google account, unless the new solution uses social plugins).

Moving stuff to slack or stackoverflow seems like a downgrade since they're systems that are even more proprietary than these groups or plain old (and more than proven) IRC. Also stackoverflow's rules (for example on broad topic discussions) seems to go completely against the kind of discussions that go on here where we may discuss and ponder several topics and suggest different fixes for a single issue (that a lot of the times aren't really just a single issue but a combination of issues or lack of understanding of some concepts by the OP).

I'm all for improving F3's community engagement but none of these solutions seems like a better solution than these groups, IRC, or github issues.

Just my $0.02.

[Vahrokh Vain]

To be honest I am not looking for a chat, but for some "searchable knowledge base" that stays indexed for Google so in 1 year I can still find whatever answer I happen to eventually need.

By the way I see some people can mark their thread as "answered" but I have no such option anywhere. How to I find / enable that? All I get is upvote and some minor options like "report abuse", "show activity" and similar.

[ikkez]

alright,.. I've found the board settings and adjusted some settings. hopefully that helps now.

[Nuwanda]

Thanks, ikkez. but that kind of illustrates the bigger point: better board software and a dedicated board administrator is a good idea.

[Summer White]

@ved

You've nailed quite a few major issues down in regards to normal hosted forums and propriety systems. I've always felt uneasy about these issues myself.

"I honestly don't see what's the big issue with using google groups for these kind of discussions."

Please, read the other users posts more carefully though. There are some very valid points made, especially by Vahrokh Vain.

If you do re-read some of the posts and think about it, what are your thoughts further?

[Tobi Ololade]

I think slack would be a better platform to move this discussions to. I have been thinking about it for a while also, this Google board is not so perfect, i dont know where to go if i have a particular issue. I have used slack on some other platforms and it has proven to be very effective. You can create channels as much as you want, channels will be created for different issues and have the categorized threads etc. It a platform i feel we should consider.

[Summer White]

The problem with Slack though it's only a conversational platform. I'm actually warming up to Google groups the more I use it. I think some of the changes Ikkez made helped.

I do want to make a final point about this discussion topic. Ikkez is the most active and experienced supporter for F3 so essentially this discussion revolves around which platform is the best to ask Ikkez questions on haha

But seriously, my opinion has changed quite a bit and has come full circle. What we do need to do is update the F3 website to put a emphasis on where the places of discussion are.

[Andrew Brookes]

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 10:47:20 PM UTC, Summer White wrote:

" Can we please discuss the possiblity to move discussions onto a better platform."

If you think about the coders on here i thought one option would have been for group to write its own forum code; access to the form & location would just be another link on main f3 website. I'm not being flippant the thought came after i managed to write my own forum code- rough as hell & barebones but i thought if i can write a basic forum then those on f3 should be able to come up with something slick & functional. You then have a one stop location- documentation on f3 web & forum on web. No moving away to another site & Login once.Also you have complete control on how forum looks/works