Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 16, 2022, 9:29:52 AM12/16/22
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I would be interested to know if anybody can find a connection or a pattern of some sort between these 5 recent stories.

1) A new scientific study found that in the US the Covid-19 vaccine has saved more than 3.2 million lives and kept more than 18.5 million people out of the hospital saving the US $1.15 trillion in medical costs. And worldwide the COVID vaccine prevented 19.8 million deaths in 185 countries. 

COVID-19 Vaccines Have Prevented Millions of Hospitalizations and Deaths

2) Florida republican governor Ron DeSantis wants a grand jury to investigate the safety of messenger RNA vaccines and possible wrongdoing by vaccine manufacturers.

Florida Gov. DeSantis requests grand jury probe of COVID-19 vaccines

3) Republicans in the House and Senate forced through legislation removing the requirement that new recruits to the armed forces be vaccinated against Covid.


4) A Gallup poll says that 79% of Democrats have confidence in science but only 45% of Republicans do:

Democratic, Republican Confidence in Science Diverges

5) In yet another new study, this one by the National Bureau of Economic Research, finds that between March 2020 to December 202 in Florida (where DeSantis is the governor) and Ohio, there was a 76% higher COVID death rate among Republicans than Democrats. And to this day 20% of the US population has not received one single Covid shot, and almost all of them are members of the Republican death cult.
uvx

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 16, 2022, 11:52:09 AM12/16/22
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I would rephrase it.
John knows that its DeSantis to beat , not Trump (finally!).
Pfizer and Moderna are big contribs to the DNC for campaign fdonations$
There is real concern among many that the side effects of Mrna vaccines produce clotting and arrythmia in some.
So, there is some research currently, as we learn more, concerning the safety of these drugs for some people?
So, it would be rational to ask if some people should avoid these vaccines, or embrace them?







Disloyalty to the Democratic Paty funders will be no big thing with anyone including most Dem voters.
I'd go with following the science, knowing that politicians are bribe-worth by those who Fund the science. 

Why are so many young dropping dead? it's a reasonable question. 










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John Clark

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Dec 16, 2022, 12:15:42 PM12/16/22
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On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 11:52 AM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> There is real concern among many that the side effects of Mrna vaccines

I know, and that "concern" (aka paranoia) primarily strikes Republicans and has been shown to be lethal. 

> Pfizer and Moderna are big contribs to the DNC for campaign fdonations$

If true then let's hear three big cheers for  Pfizer and Moderna in their fight against deadly anti-science barbarism.

>  there is some research currently, as we learn more, concerning the safety of these drugs for some people?
So, it would be rational to ask if some people should avoid these vaccines, or embrace them?

Do you really think these risks haven't been investigated 1000 times and the answers have come back 1000 times that the benefits of vaccination VASTLY outnumber the risks?!  And do you seriously believe that Ron DeSantis was stupid enough to believe that new scientific research can come out of a grand jury probe? DeSantis is no Trump, the man is not stupid, at least he is not Trump level stupid, therefore I must conclude that he did it because he thought it would help him become more popular with the Republican death cult, and it probably will.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
uty


 

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 16, 2022, 6:17:40 PM12/16/22
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Last comment first. Yes, these drugs may not have been checked sufficiently. Big push in 20 getting the vaccine out now!

Do you really think these risks haven't been investigated 1000 times
Never Assume JC especially where big money is involved. 

People especially young people have died. Athletes. We need to know if anything is happening to the young and vaxed?



Now what about young people dropping dead? Causes? Lets find out. 



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Brent Meeker

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Dec 17, 2022, 1:34:59 AM12/17/22
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It's a plot by the Dems.  It's their version of voter suppression.

Brent
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Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 17, 2022, 7:20:22 AM12/17/22
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Please, you cite the Epoch Times, which is a pure propagandist rag. Nobody with a credible argument cites them. Further, the corporations contribute to both parties, and during nominal socio-economic times they do so rather equally. Normally the main difference between a republican and a democrat in elected office is the velocity their knees hit the floor when confronted by their campaign donors. The medical industry is no different.

As for arrhythmic heart activity this is an aspect of Covid itself. It is a part of so-called long-Covid. I have these problems, which include fatigue and shortness of breath. These problems are far better than they were 2 years ago, but they are still there. I will be getting my next Covid booster in a matter of days.  

Curiously, the biggest non-medical prevention of Covid appears to be cigarette smoking. My lady friend is a heavy smoker and she has not gotten Covid, though she has gotten the first two shots. 

LC

John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 7:35:23 AM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 7:20 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Please, you cite the Epoch Times, which is a pure propagandist rag. Nobody with a credible argument cites them.

Spudboy is very fond of spewing out lots and lots of citations, but typically none of them are worth more than a bucket of warm spit. That's what happens when one's worldview is formed largely by Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk, but reality is larger than Fox News or Twitter or even Facebook.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
fbv




Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 17, 2022, 10:25:59 AM12/17/22
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death rate by party.png

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:01:59 PM12/17/22
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We will assume that the poll is accurate by what source for this graph? The Epoch Times is anti-CCP. Those who side with the CCP like University Doyens. who like and accept The Confucius Institutes run by the CCP. But let us accept this wonderous poll and hope that it was honestly undertaken?  You should have no complaints, as in a Darwinian manner, we should simply off. Beyond biology. I would say that the unfortunate thing is that the progressives that control the dems will create more DeSantis voters than Covid will kill off. In other words bad policy will cause millions to hold their noses and vote DeSantis, and, or, as dems do, start to sit out elections. 

It does not in any case explore the notion of vaccines causing harm to people who would have lived without the jab?  I go with the science on this because it is a fair medical question. So does DeSantis. 

Politically yours, Spud (Pfizer #5 enthusiast!) cough cough!

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
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Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 10:25 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:11:43 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 5:01 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 > I go with the science on this because it is a fair medical question. So does DeSantis. 

And DeSantis believes that the right people to do science are lawyers and right wing political hacks in a grand jury probe??!! And what about you, do you really believe people like that can outsmart the Chinese who you're so worried about?

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
ihh
uvx

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:22:37 PM12/17/22
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Yeah, the funny thing is why should a plurality of people on this continent accept the citations you support?
As the jokes now goes"  

"They said, follow the science. I followed the science and found the money!" 

For me, the science either stands on its own or doesn't? If there is a cover up that protects Big Pharma from identifying the hopefully few deaths induced by their vaccines, let's find out? Maybe the sacrifice was worth it? Maybe hell no!!!  The truth, scientific please. 

Attacking DeSantis will gain you nothing since it will be Joey's policies elsewhere that win DeSantis 2024. 

I betcha!

Meanwhile, remember you were the guy who advocated against 'socialist spud' from big pharma from pursuing Covid treatments as well? You hanging with a cost-benefit analysis. 
Me, I point out that saving Covid sufferers is a money maker as well. $$$.

Now, JC, even the CCP simply loves my advocation from our argument in 2021.

China health app starts online sales of Pfizer's Paxlovid for COVID treatment


Can I hear an Amen from the "Politics sucks, its technology that helps us. Choir?" You may want to sit this one out Master Clark?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
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Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 7:34 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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Brent Meeker

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:35:54 PM12/17/22
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On 12/17/2022 2:01 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
> It does not in any case explore the notion of vaccines causing harm to
> people who would have lived without the jab?
That was "explored" by vaccinating a few thousand volunteers before
approval of public release by the FDA.

> I go with the science on this because it is a fair medical question.
> So does DeSantis.
Are you exploring the Jewish space laser too.  It sounds sciency; so
it's only fair that you and Ron explore it too.  Go with the
science...and don't come back without it.

Brent

John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:49:34 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 5:22 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Attacking DeSantis will gain you nothing since [blah blah blah]

Let's cut through the bullshit and get to the core of the matter, and that's easy to do because the statistics couldn't be clearer, those who believe in your philosophy regarding vaccination and that of DeSantis tend to die, and those who believe in my philosophy and that of Joe Biden tend to live. It's as simple as that.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
etd


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 5:58:47 PM12/17/22
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There have been many deaths, unexpected, with those who are young, and very young. Let us find out if the vaccines have unexpected and deadly side effects & who may, say, by genetic markers, or whatever medical, should avoid the vaccines like the plague. Thus, it's a worthwhile pursuit.  The CCP is smart and deadly, but they make ginormous mistakes as well, because they all think inside the box. Plus, like yourself, inflexible, and slower to adapt to changing circumstances. They pursued & pursued the Zero Covid policy till they reached an inflection point with the People (Han), It is within 30 days this occurred. 

The CCP/PLA wants war upon us. Joey and Family took bribes from the CCP, and during Obama, the CCP built hypersonic missiles for a 1st strike on the US, at the time their biggest customer. So, emotions overwhelm reason, and this is why I focus so much on Policy. You adapted slowly, realizing the Trumpo was going to not be the Party man, and so wisely, have finally focused on DeSantis because he is so much more resourceful a guy, sans, e-g-o. Trumps policies were much better than I expected and were better than Joey-crap Policies that Obama pushed. 


Meaning, that the NYT acknowledges that the Bidens were on the take for years. That is what they are troubled about, the payoffs that the CCP does worldwide, aka, soft power.
The Chinese must be pissed at the Biden's?

After being deservedly stung by the Afghan failure, Joe's advisors got serious because they were forced to!

Under Joey we are now building and testing our own hypersonic missiles. 
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/dec/13/us-tests-first-successful-air-launched-hypersonic-/

So, what is the takeaway from my learnings? Wise policy is essential, be it Covid or Commies. We shouldn't expect too much from leaders and be glad for when policies are wise. 
Don't think Ideologically. Be open to change if one must? DeSantis is your opponent for 24, unless Trump self corrects which is unlikely. 

Look to technology to solve problems first and foremost, and use politics to finance worthy, yummy projects. 

Oh yeah, and Merry Strominger-mas to you! Carols forthcoming.... 




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Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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Dylan Distasio

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:01:40 PM12/17/22
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There are plenty of reputable researchers and MDs who have raised concerns over the safety of mRNA nanoparticles as a delivery vehicle; it's not necessary to go to the Epoch times to find these concerns, and it's not a conspiracy theory.

It is pretty clear at this point that the nanoparticles in many cases do not stay localized and get into other tissues.   In fact, a tissue distribution study in animals is in the original application paperwork which shows that the nanoparticle delivery system goes to nearly every tissue in the body.   No studies on tissue distribution of the nanoparticles WITH payload, particularly in humans, was conducted to my knowledge prior to approval which is a big red flag.

This is from BMJ which you hopefully hold in higher regard than the Epoch Times:

For COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (Pfizer or Moderna), the biodistribution studies in animals were not conducted. The surrogate studies with luciferase and solid-lipid nanoparticles (Pfizer) confirm a biodistribution to the liver and other body tissues beyond the administration site [5]. For Moderna, the biodistribution of mRNA-1647 (encoding CMV genes) formulated in a similar lipid nanoparticulate delivery system confirms a biodistribution beyond the injection site, in particular, the distribution to the lymph nodes, spleen and the eye was noted [6]. However, the detailed tissue-specific distribution of mRNA vaccines encoding SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins (Pfizer or Moderna) is not fully known that can offer invaluable insights into the potential safety of these vaccines in peoples with pre-existing conditions or those on certain medications.

The detailed biodistribution data including pharmacokinetics of various CoViD vaccines were not conducted by the vaccine manufacturers because the studies demonstrating biodistribution of antigens were considered ‘not required' by the regulatory authorities on the premise that vaccines work by an immunological response than the classic pharmacological approach. However, such an exemption may barely justify the conventional vaccines such as those incorporating whole inactivated virus, split virion, or the sub-unit vaccines, that directly attracts an immune response post-injection.


There were also modifications made to the mRNA to make it more stable which were not tested in humans prior to the initial vaccine trials.

At that point, you have a spike protein (which appears to be toxic in and of itself to cells) being potentially distributed via mRNA to multiple tissues where beyond causing havoc from production of the spike protein directly, you have additional risk of autoimmune disorders occurring.

Caution in widespread rollout of these vaccines would have been advisable, particularly when you look at the IFR from Covid-19 in younger, healthy cohorts.   This is not conspiracy theory stuff; there are a lot of unknowns with this particular tech, and a number of European countries, particularly Scandinavian ones, (unlike the US where Big Pharma money talks even more loudly) have become more conservative with their recommendations on vaccinating / boosting children.

There was also a concerted effort from government and the press to block all discussion on these potential risks, and to destroy the livelihood of anyone who raised them.   This is not the way science is supposed to be conducted.

We were also told in the beginning by US government agencies (it's on the record if you care to look it up) that these vaccines would do a very good job of stopping transmission.   We all know now that was a falsehood as they are incredibly leaky.

In aggregate, there are a large number of troubling red flags over how this rollout was handled by various government agencies.   It should not have been a one size fits all solution based on disparate IFRs in different cohorts based on age/comorbidities combined with very leaky vaccines, and there certainly shouldn't have been any mandates.

This is another more recent note published in the BMJ discussing risk/reward in younger cohorts:
COVID-19 vaccine boosters for young adults: a risk benefit assessment and ethical analysis of mandate policies at universities

Abstract
In 2022, students at North American universities with third-dose COVID-19 vaccine mandates risk disenrolment if unvaccinated. To assess the appropriateness of booster mandates in this age group, we combine empirical risk-benefit assessment and ethical analysis. To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we estimate that 31 207–42 836 young adults aged 18–29 years must receive a third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5–4.6 booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring hospitalisation). We also anticipate 1430–4626 cases of grade ≥3 reactogenicity interfering with daily activities (although typically not requiring hospitalisation). University booster mandates are unethical because they: (1) are not based on an updated (Omicron era) stratified risk-benefit assessment for this age group; (2) may result in a net harm to healthy young adults; (3) are not proportionate: expected harms are not outweighed by public health benefits given modest and transient effectiveness of vaccines against transmission; (4) violate the reciprocity principle because serious vaccine-related harms are not reliably compensated due to gaps in vaccine injury schemes; and (5) may result in wider social harms. We consider counterarguments including efforts to increase safety on campus but find these are fraught with limitations and little scientific support. Finally, we discuss the policy relevance of our analysis for primary series COVID-19 vaccine mandates.


Mandates were unethical in my opinion, and it would appear that at least some are waking up to this fact 2+ years later.   I also think it is irresponsible to recommend vaccinating children with this tech when there are a lot of unknowns and the IFR in children for Covid-19 is miniscule.   For the record, I have always been fully supportive of traditional, well tested vaccines that are also safe and efficacious.   I also went to school for this stuff and although I have long since stopped doing any benchwork or anything else in the field can understand basic molecular biology/immunology to have had concerns early on with widespread rollout of mRNA tech, particularly when it was being forced on people.

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:10:03 PM12/17/22
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Very Nice! You and I hold Darwin as the good guy and truly a man ahead of his time. Like Thomas Malthus, we die off and decrease the surplus population, Mr. Scrooge.

Except, my belief is that 2 more years of Joey-DNC will piss off more people then auto-suicide, and increase the votes for DeSantis by pissing a plurality of Dems and independents. When, white women of the burbs cannot feed their kids because of supply chain shortages or war, they will either elect to sit this election out, or dance with the Man from Florida, whilst holding their delicate noses. 

We (Reps) are very open to recruiting Nuevo Americanos to our team as well, as well as making voting easy as a Grub-Hub or DoorDash delivery, like you guys done in 2 elections.

See, we evolve too!!

Oh! And ya hadn't still said Jack about your own personal energy policy yet, which is a science issue and an important one. She blinded me with science, She did it with technology!

Image search result from dreamstime.com


-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
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Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 5:48 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:14:39 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 5:58 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> There have been many deaths, unexpected, with those who are young, and [blah blah blah]

I repeat, the statistics couldn't be clearer, those who believe in your philosophy regarding vaccination and that of DeSantis tend to die, and those who believe in my philosophy and that of Joe Biden and the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community tend to live.
 
> Joey and Family took bribes from the CCP, and [blah blah blah]

According to Mr. Spudboy all human behavior and all human history can be understood simply by knowing who bribed who.
 
 > the CCP built hypersonic missiles for a 1st strike on the US,

Old news, hypersonic missiles and first strike capability has been around for 60 years. 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

rva

8uf


ih

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:15:14 PM12/17/22
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I'd definitely explore the Jew laser thing! Consider me an enthusiast.
Ooops! Already being worked on. 







-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 5:35 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics



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John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:19:54 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 6:01 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are plenty of reputable researchers and MDs who have raised concerns over the safety of mRNA
 
That's all very nice but I repeat, the statistics couldn't be clearer, those who believe in your philosophy regarding mRNA and that of DeSantis tend to die, and those who believe in my philosophy and that of Joe Biden the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community tend to live. It's as simple as that.  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
arn


Dylan Distasio

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:25:38 PM12/17/22
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You may be fine placing people, including yourself, into oversimplified buckets, but how do you even know what my philosophy is.   Not all issues are black and white, and some nuance is required to set proper ethical public policy.

Not all cohorts are equal in regard to Covid-19, so with apologies, it's not as simple as that.


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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:29:28 PM12/17/22
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The problem is, Mr. D. is that he peeps on the mailing list here go by ideology and the ideology is Progressive, where human concerns be damned ideological faith and loyalty is #1. It's not about the science it's about the "faith." For me personally? I am a Pfizer enthusiast, unsure of Moderna, and in both cases worried about young people croaking without cause. Please note, that these guys rock when discussing Alice & Bob experiments, but simply cannot let their emotions be uncontrolled when dealing outside their ideology. 

Me? A bit different. For politics, I switched from Trumpo to DeSantis for 2 reasons, which are, Trump couldn't prove election fraud, and DeSantis does so more, with so much less. He is my Go-To guy. He is also not the ego that Donny was. Could I ever vote Dem again? Maybe, but they'd have to be better than the progressive and globalist scuzzos that proggies are now.

Policies are the only things that matter. So..
For me?
Good on Vaxing, but good on seeing for bad side effects.
Good on solar. But interested in other energy makers.
Likes battery power.
Good on doing space mining as a economic and social fix.
Good on Basic research funding but see engineering to be made real. If lab stuff stays in the lab, meh!
Other policies can get argued later.
Foreign Policies-Afraid of Putin and Xi. See these as a deliberately existential threat. 

But that's on just me, and I try not to get beyond tech, or cosmology, which is more, uplifting.

Spud. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 6:01 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:30:44 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 6:25 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not all cohorts are equal in regard to Covid-19, so with apologies, it's not as simple as that.

No, some things are EXACTLY as simple as that. Those who are suspicious of the COVID-19 vaccine tend to die and those that aren't don't.  
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

mwx
 

Dylan Distasio

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Dec 17, 2022, 6:43:59 PM12/17/22
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The risk/reward calculation on vaccination versus risking natural infection is not the same for all cohorts, which I'm sure you understand.   Your assertion is not accurate for young&healthy cohorts which is what the second BMJ article speaks to.

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John Clark

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Dec 17, 2022, 8:01:50 PM12/17/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 6:43 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The risk/reward calculation on vaccination versus risking natural infection is not the same for all cohorts, which I'm sure you understand. 

Tucker Carlson made a big stink on his silly Fox show when he said 4863 people died shortly after receiving a Covid shot. What he said was true but what he didn't say was that more than 285 MILLION shots had been administered so that's just 0.0017% , and he didn't mention that 80% of those were over 60 years old, and he didn't mention that number included those who died from any cause including car crashes and lightning strikes, and he didn't mention that not a single one of those 4863 deaths has been conclusively linked to the Covid shot. And he didn't mention that the Covid vaccine has saved an estimated 3 million lives in the US and 20 million lives worldwide. 

20% of the US population (nearly all members of the Republican death cult) has still not received one single Covid shot, do you seriously believe the world would be a better place if that percentage was even higher? Do we really need more vaccine skepticism? 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
8ha


Brent Meeker

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Dec 17, 2022, 8:38:23 PM12/17/22
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On 12/17/2022 3:01 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote:
There are plenty of reputable researchers and MDs who have raised concerns over the safety of mRNA nanoparticles as a delivery vehicle; it's not necessary to go to the Epoch times to find these concerns, and it's not a conspiracy theory.

It is pretty clear at this point that the nanoparticles in many cases do not stay localized and get into other tissues.  

Why would you want the vaccine to stay in your left bicep?  Does someone suppose that a pertussis, or measles or polio vaccine just stayed in one tissue?  And the word "nanoparticle" is misleading.  I believe the mRNA molecules are in a fluid droplet; not some solid particle.

In fact, a tissue distribution study in animals is in the original application paperwork which shows that the nanoparticle delivery system goes to nearly every tissue in the body.
Sounds good.


 No studies on tissue distribution of the nanoparticles WITH payload, particularly in humans, was conducted to my knowledge prior to approval which is a big red flag.
Why would tissue distribution be any different in a human than a rat or a dog?  Has that been shown to be case with other vaccines?



This is from BMJ which you hopefully hold in higher regard than the Epoch Times:

For COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (Pfizer or Moderna), the biodistribution studies in animals were not conducted. The surrogate studies with luciferase and solid-lipid nanoparticles (Pfizer) confirm a biodistribution to the liver and other body tissues beyond the administration site [5]. For Moderna, the biodistribution of mRNA-1647 (encoding CMV genes) formulated in a similar lipid nanoparticulate delivery system confirms a biodistribution beyond the injection site, in particular, the distribution to the lymph nodes, spleen and the eye was noted [6]. However, the detailed tissue-specific distribution of mRNA vaccines encoding SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins (Pfizer or Moderna) is not fully known that can offer invaluable insights into the potential safety of these vaccines in peoples with pre-existing conditions or those on certain medications.

The detailed biodistribution data including pharmacokinetics of various CoViD vaccines were not conducted by the vaccine manufacturers because the studies demonstrating biodistribution of antigens were considered ‘not required' by the regulatory authorities on the premise that
How do you know that was the premise.  Maybe the premise was that the vaccines would distribute just like historical vaccines.

Brent


vaccines work by an immunological response than the classic pharmacological approach. However, such an exemption may barely justify the conventional vaccines such as those incorporating whole inactivated virus, split virion, or the sub-unit vaccines, that directly attracts an immune response post-injection.


There were also modifications made to the mRNA to make it more stable which were not tested in humans prior to the initial vaccine trials.

At that point, you have a spike protein (which appears to be toxic in and of itself to cells) being potentially distributed via mRNA to multiple tissues where beyond causing havoc from production of the spike protein directly, you have additional risk of autoimmune disorders occurring.

Caution in widespread rollout of these vaccines would have been advisable, particularly when you look at the IFR from Covid-19 in younger, healthy cohorts.   This is not conspiracy theory stuff; there are a lot of unknowns with this particular tech, and a number of European countries, particularly Scandinavian ones, (unlike the US where Big Pharma money talks even more loudly) have become more conservative with their recommendations on vaccinating / boosting children.

There was also a concerted effort from government and the press to block all discussion on these potential risks, and to destroy the livelihood of anyone who raised them.   This is not the way science is supposed to be conducted.

We were also told in the beginning by US government agencies (it's on the record if you care to look it up) that these vaccines would do a very good job of stopping transmission.   We all know now that was a falsehood as they are incredibly leaky.

In aggregate, there are a large number of troubling red flags over how this rollout was handled by various government agencies.   It should not have been a one size fits all solution based on disparate IFRs in different cohorts based on age/comorbidities combined with very leaky vaccines, and there certainly shouldn't have been any mandates.

This is another more recent note published in the BMJ discussing risk/reward in younger cohorts:
COVID-19 vaccine boosters for young adults: a risk benefit assessment and ethical analysis of mandate policies at universities

Abstract
In 2022, students at North American universities with third-dose COVID-19 vaccine mandates risk disenrolment if unvaccinated. To assess the appropriateness of booster mandates in this age group, we combine empirical risk-benefit assessment and ethical analysis. To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we estimate that 31 207–42 836 young adults aged 18–29 years must receive a third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5–4.6 booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring hospitalisation). We also anticipate 1430–4626 cases of grade ≥3 reactogenicity interfering with daily activities (although typically not requiring hospitalisation). University booster mandates are unethical because they: (1) are not based on an updated (Omicron era) stratified risk-benefit assessment for this age group; (2) may result in a net harm to healthy young adults; (3) are not proportionate: expected harms are not outweighed by public health benefits given modest and transient effectiveness of vaccines against transmission; (4) violate the reciprocity principle because serious vaccine-related harms are not reliably compensated due to gaps in vaccine injury schemes; and (5) may result in wider social harms. We consider counterarguments including efforts to increase safety on campus but find these are fraught with limitations and little scientific support. Finally, we discuss the policy relevance of our analysis for primary series COVID-19 vaccine mandates.


Mandates were unethical in my opinion, and it would appear that at least some are waking up to this fact 2+ years later.   I also think it is irresponsible to recommend vaccinating children with this tech when there are a lot of unknowns and the IFR in children for Covid-19 is miniscule.   For the record, I have always been fully supportive of traditional, well tested vaccines that are also safe and efficacious.   I also went to school for this stuff and although I have long since stopped doing any benchwork or anything else in the field can understand basic molecular biology/immunology to have had concerns early on with widespread rollout of mRNA tech, particularly when it was being forced on people.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:15 PM John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really think these risks haven't been investigated 1000 times and the answers have come back 1000 times that the benefits of vaccination VASTLY outnumber the risks?!  
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Dylan Distasio

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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:38 PM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would you want the vaccine to stay in your left bicep?  Does someone suppose that a pertussis, or measles or polio vaccine just stayed in one tissue?  And the word "nanoparticle" is misleading.  I believe the mRNA molecules are in a fluid droplet; not some solid particle.

Why, because the way vaccines have worked pre-mRNA is that dendretic cells in the local injection area take up the antigen and present it to T-cells in the lymphatic system.   At that point the immune system is primed.   

The question of tissue distribution becomes much more important with mRNA vaccines because any cell that takes it up is going to produce the spike protein and be attacked by the immune system, meaning for example that if a large number of heart cells took it up and expressed spike protein, they are going to be attacked by the immune system as infected potentially leading to inflammation and other undesired side effects.

The makers of mRNA vaccines would certainly hope that the mRNA stays localized to the injection site; you will certainly not find them trumpeting the idea that it is a good thing for them to go all over the body.    You are risking inflammation and damage in any tissue they get into with a high level of distribution (more on possible mechanisms of action regarding myocarditis here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8607534/).

Nanoparticle is not misleading.   It is industry standard verbiage.   The mRNA is encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles which allows for protecting the naked mRNA and facilitating merging with the lipid cell membrane:

 
Why would tissue distribution be any different in a human than a rat or a dog?  Has that been shown to be case with other vaccines?

I'm not arguing it's different.   It's likely the same; that's the point.   Widespread tissue distribution of spike protein mRNA is NOT a good thing, and completely unnecessary to facilitate a robust immune reaction.    Again, Pfizer and Moderna do not want to see this distribution.   In their ideal scenario, the only cells producing spike protein are in the localized injection site.

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JC is 100% correct upon his Hypersonic Missile comment, save that Hypersonic Cruise Missiles was something we in the US didn't push for because why do OverKill? JC was and is correct that regular ICBM's go into space and use MIRV's to hit their targets at speeds faster than Hypersonic missiles 17.5 MPH (25 KPH) and Hypersonics only do 13.5 KPH. However, their trick is swerving in mid air to avoid being hit by incoming anti-missiles. Joey is now perfecting Hypersonics for the US as a long-delayed reply. 

Because as the generals in the Pentagon noted, increasing bombs is simply, "making the rubble bounce," This would be in a biotically dead, radioactive world. 

Yes to what money seems to do with people's behavior, and yes to human greed, and yes to how the CCP uses bribes to get their way with all. 

Here from the US Consulate 3 years ago nearly-

A recent psycho study

My point is, if this is how many or most human being really are, then this is what we have to work with, we will just have to do our best. Not everyone can be a National Merit Scholar or a Fields Prize winner. We'll just have to do our best by pooling what feeble talents we possess and achieve what we can as a species? Greased palms and all...

Again JC, if we choke on it by refusing vaccinations then this is on us feeble-minded folk. However, I contend that Progressive Policy will anger the common folk who were ok with Joe in 2020 and 2022. Thus we will pick votes even though we through our blindness are now demised! We also are now good with letting complete foreigners vote, as long as they vote for us. In return, they get to bring their families here and they get jobs too!''   We too will do ballot harvesting and win the day. 

To grease your skids, JC,  I will push (along with others) making abortion less attractive then building artificial wombs! Thus retaining the Christian voter and promoting a new moral answer for humankind. 

Think of it John, a womb with a view! Welcome, Welcome one and all to Jurassic Park!

 When does an embryo become viable? Artificial uterus in development may dramatically lower the number of weeks - Genetic Literacy Project


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Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Well, the thing is scientifically is not to do what the dem-progressives do which is demand that everyone get vaccinated, but to have some biological screening done to prevent those with medical-genetic dispositions to be harmed by vaccination damage, to not be subjected to a death warrant? 

Why not insist on everyone with a peanut allergy be forced to eat peanuts because you make money off of peanut plantations. 

Now is there a means of indicating whether one has a likelihood to a bad reaction from mRNA drugs? Or, is there a thing between one political party receiving donation$ from Pfizer and Moderna? There may not be!!!

But let the governor do his work to identify if some people should never have these vaccinations, and go about with masks on as a precaution, and maybe have a better shot at life by being given paxlovid after the get the Covid? 

My Takeaway? Not everything, all the time be seen through a political-ideological lense. 


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Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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Stathis Papaioannou

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Dec 17, 2022, 10:19:18 PM12/17/22
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On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 at 13:09, Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:38 PM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would you want the vaccine to stay in your left bicep?  Does someone suppose that a pertussis, or measles or polio vaccine just stayed in one tissue?  And the word "nanoparticle" is misleading.  I believe the mRNA molecules are in a fluid droplet; not some solid particle.

Why, because the way vaccines have worked pre-mRNA is that dendretic cells in the local injection area take up the antigen and present it to T-cells in the lymphatic system.   At that point the immune system is primed.   

The question of tissue distribution becomes much more important with mRNA vaccines because any cell that takes it up is going to produce the spike protein and be attacked by the immune system, meaning for example that if a large number of heart cells took it up and expressed spike protein, they are going to be attacked by the immune system as infected potentially leading to inflammation and other undesired side effects.

The coronavirus infects multiple tisssues in body, and almost every possible side-effect of vaccines, including rare ones such as myocarditis, are worse with the viral infection. This is what you would expect: viruses are parasites than invade the body and take over cells to make them produce more viruses, while vaccines are dead or attenuated viruses or a tiny part of the virus.

The makers of mRNA vaccines would certainly hope that the mRNA stays localized to the injection site; you will certainly not find them trumpeting the idea that it is a good thing for them to go all over the body.    You are risking inflammation and damage in any tissue they get into with a high level of distribution (more on possible mechanisms of action regarding myocarditis here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8607534/).

Nanoparticle is not misleading.   It is industry standard verbiage.   The mRNA is encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles which allows for protecting the naked mRNA and facilitating merging with the lipid cell membrane:

 
Why would tissue distribution be any different in a human than a rat or a dog?  Has that been shown to be case with other vaccines?

I'm not arguing it's different.   It's likely the same; that's the point.   Widespread tissue distribution of spike protein mRNA is NOT a good thing, and completely unnecessary to facilitate a robust immune reaction.    Again, Pfizer and Moderna do not want to see this distribution.   In their ideal scenario, the only cells producing spike protein are in the localized injection site.

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Stathis Papaioannou

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Just, logically from what we know from infectious disease specialists, there often is a subset of individuals who react badly to inoculation. Does this invalidate the research and development that may have prevented millions of deaths? No, but there is no reason to oppose DeSantis or say, some other pol from wanting to identify if this is valid or not? Should a tiny fraction go about with masks and gloves, and never be inoculated? Or is this foolish from a public health perspective? IF big pharma has hidden adverse results, it is reasonable to know this. If athletes are keeling over left and right because of clots and carditis we oughta know? If this is just exaggeration, let's find out. 

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Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

John Clark

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Dec 18, 2022, 7:01:52 AM12/18/22
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:19 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>the thing is scientifically is not to do what the dem-progressives do which is demand that everyone get vaccinated, but to have some biological screening done to prevent those with medical-genetic dispositions to be harmed by vaccination damage, to not be subjected to a death warrant? 

We have excellent data on the safety of the Covid vaccine because worldwide 12.7 BILLION shots have been given, so now we know that it is one of the safest medications in the history of the world. The most common side effect is anaphylactic shock which occurs in 5 people out of 1 million, however none of those cases have been fatal. It's impossible to prove that anything is 100% safe but we know for certain that the set of people who have received a "death warrant" because of the vaccine is tiny and may indeed be the null set. However the set of people who are alive because of the Covid shot is HUGE.    

> is there a thing between one political party receiving donation$ from Pfizer and Moderna?

Yeah yeah, we've heard that paranoid right wing crap before. And why the hell would you want to demonize Pfizer and Moderna?! Those two companies have saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars!
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
tod



Tucker Carlson made a big stink on his silly Fox show when he said 4863 people died shortly after receiving a Covid shot. What he said was true but what he didn't say was that more than 285 MILLION shots had been administered so that's just 0.0017% , and he didn't mention that 80% of those were over 60 years old, and he didn't mention that number included those who died from any cause including car crashes and lightning strikes, and he didn't mention that not a single one of those 4863 deaths has been conclusively linked to the Covid shot. And he didn't mention that the Covid vaccine has saved an estimated 3 million lives in the US and 20 million lives worldwide. 

20% of the US population (nearly all members of the Republican death cult) has still not received one single Covid shot, do you seriously believe the world would be a better place if that percentage was even higher? Do we really need more vaccine skepticism? 

 
8ha

Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 18, 2022, 11:36:52 AM12/18/22
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On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 6:01:52 AM UTC-6 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:19 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>the thing is scientifically is not to do what the dem-progressives do which is demand that everyone get vaccinated, but to have some biological screening done to prevent those with medical-genetic dispositions to be harmed by vaccination damage, to not be subjected to a death warrant? 

We have excellent data on the safety of the Covid vaccine because worldwide 12.7 BILLION shots have been given, so now we know that it is one of the safest medications in the history of the world. The most common side effect is anaphylactic shock which occurs in 5 people out of 1 million, however none of those cases have been fatal. It's impossible to prove that anything is 100% safe but we know for certain that the set of people who have received a "death warrant" because of the vaccine is tiny and may indeed be the null set. However the set of people who are alive because of the Covid shot is HUGE.    

> is there a thing between one political party receiving donation$ from Pfizer and Moderna?

Yeah yeah, we've heard that paranoid right wing crap before. And why the hell would you want to demonize Pfizer and Moderna?! Those two companies have saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars!
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
tod

Spudboy has little credibility IMO. I dismiss most of his posts are conspiratorial fear-mongering nonsense.

LC

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Dec 18, 2022, 12:57:38 PM12/18/22
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Your dismissiveness on people's lives and whether or not they have an adverse reaction to the mRNA dosing is predicated on your ideology and not medical science. If somebody has an adverse reaction to peanuts you don't feed them peanuts. It's a medical question that needs an answer. Very simple, conceptually. T/F, Y/N?


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So, you're convinced that there is no concern for adverse reactions from the mRNA vaccinations? Nobody is having medical problems from, in many cases, coerced into taking the vaccinations. Or is it merely, that I glommed Epoch Times as a source?

So, if I supplied a medical study, if I ever stumbled across such a study, you'd peruse it? 


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John Clark

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Dec 18, 2022, 1:09:19 PM12/18/22
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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 12:57 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> If somebody has an adverse reaction to peanuts you don't feed them peanuts

You would if eating a peanut prevented cancer because anaphylactic shock we can deal with, cancer is a bit more difficult.  

> Your dismissiveness on people's lives and whether

Don't give me that crap! Medical resources are finite, a dollar spent on solving a problem that is either tiny or doesn't exist at all is a dollar not spend on things that kill millions of people a year such as cancer and heart disease and of course Covid. And that is morally wrong as well as incredibly stupid. 
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urt


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Well, for money and that, as a species, over the longer term, we all seem to be able to make a profit doing medical services. Just like you opposed my idea of treatment for Covid being life-saving got sufferers, PFizer was already ahead of us both. I agree with the notion that when we want a one-world govt, the path would be through universal healthcare. 

Anaphylactic shock is more treatable than the most aggressive cancers, but NOT if you don't know that you are susceptible to it!! This is what DeSantis wants and what every potential patient needs to know. Yes, I'd be spending billions and trillions more on cancer and tissue engineering because Johny, besides allowing people to live, we'd all get a nice ROI, return on investment. 

You must mean ethics instead of morals. Morality belongs to you and God the gawdz? Ethics is how we treat each other or animals. Please defer from morality lectures because atheists have no magic friends in the sky. 



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John Clark

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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 4:20 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Anaphylactic shock is more treatable than the most aggressive cancers, but NOT if you don't know that you are susceptible to it!! This is what DeSantis wants

And DeSantis expects to obtain new medical knowledge from fucking lawyers running a fucking grand jury?! BULLSHUT! What DeSantis wants is a pat on the back from the Republican death cult, and judging from your fawning over him I expect he'll probably get it. 

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 18, 2022, 4:44:21 PM12/18/22
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Let's find out, especially if there have been reported problems with people dying. Are these false accusations? Moderna and Pfizer have huge legal teams for just such inquiries and they were protected by Trump with his Warp Speed development of the vaccines, so why complain? Or is it, you do lawfare, now we do lawfare? My worship of the Republican Gov is nothing compared to the dem slavish obedience to Fauci. 


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Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

John Clark

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Dec 18, 2022, 5:01:04 PM12/18/22
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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 4:44 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Let's find out,

And you expect DeSantis and his ridiculous grand jury to do that?  

> especially if there have been reported problems with people dying.

With 12.7 billion vaccine shots given of course there are reports of people dying soon after they received one, how could it be otherwise? But there is no well-established link between the two things and if there is one it is very very weak.  

> Are these false accusations? Moderna and Pfizer have huge legal teams for just such inquiries and they were protected by Trump with his Warp Speed development of the vaccines, so why complain? Or is it, you do lawfare, now we do lawfare? My worship of the Republican Gov is nothing compared to the dem slavish obedience to Fauci. 

You chastise me for having insufficient reverence for life but it is vaccine suspicion spread by people like you that have already killed millions of people and is still killing thousands of people a day.     

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

jhg

nhb

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Dec 18, 2022, 5:26:05 PM12/18/22
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Well, John, ya know, us Reps shor iz hypocrites and I iz the biggest. I was and am enthusiast for the Vaxes and get mine with no problems. I am, however troubled by reports of surprising deaths in otherwise healthy young athletes. Plus, your party and your people in the CDC insisted that upon pain of being fired at hospitals, the military, the MUST be vaccinated. So, since your team uses coercion, why be bothered if my team does the same, especially if we are pursuing medical accuracy? 

If this dreadful, Fox propaganda talking point is in any way true, the medical facts have been suppressed. If the professor here lying, or afraid of offending Jesus by wanting to alert people to his findings? 

This seems to be more a dem conspiracy then a rep conspiracy to me. Are you concerned that people might rebel against forced vaccinations as policy, or that a Pharma cover up might be revealed? 
What I like about the UK press is that deep down, they hate all Americans across the board, so given a chance they happily present The Dirt on the US.  The worser, the better!


Your morality doesn't trouble me at all. You're no worse than anyone else. Doing what is wise, be it military, or abortion, or vaccinations, or space, we are better served to yeah, buddy, follow the science down the rabbit hole. Don't axiomatically assume that scientists or politicians are virtuous. Parties are virtuous? Hell no! 




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Brent Meeker

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That's "De Sanctimonious" to you,  John.

Brent  :-)
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John Clark

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Dec 19, 2022, 7:27:49 AM12/19/22
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On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 5:26 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> your party and your people in the CDC insisted that upon pain of being fired at hospitals, the military, the MUST be vaccinated.

GOOD! I don't think I need to explain why it's not a good idea to hire walking COVID-19 virus factories to work around sick people with compromised immune systems. As for the military, it was not the Democrats that insisted that all members of the armed forces be vaccinated, it was the military itself that insisted on it. Back in 2020 before there was a vaccine Covid broke out on the 100,000 ton nuclear aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt when it was at sea and they had to cut short their mission and returned to port; 1331 sailors of the 4779 on the ship got sick and 23 were so sick they had to be hospitalized, 4 had to go into intensive care, and one died. The Navy really doesn't want something like that to happen again, especially if they're in a combat situation, so they want everybody to be vaccinated.


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y5x


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Dec 19, 2022, 5:03:01 PM12/19/22
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Shipboard, that makes sense. People assigned to land are a different story. Close quarters aboard ship is one thing, airplanes too.

In the open, the CDC has a view on this-

So insisting everyone needs the inoculation doesn't ring true epidemiologically. We then must ask what is reason? 

Relatedly, JC here is this news item, and again, why? 

For me, we should have a way to screen for vaccination susceptibility. Resulting in less deaths. 


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Brent Meeker

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Dec 19, 2022, 5:17:57 PM12/19/22
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On 12/19/2022 2:02 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Shipboard, that makes sense. People assigned to land are a different story.
Yea, we won't pack them in airplanes and the back of trucks and armored personnel carriers; we'll have the march to war keeping six foot distance.

Why do we keep potato boy on the list?  Just to provide intellectual noise?

Brent

John Clark

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Dec 19, 2022, 5:53:53 PM12/19/22
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On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 5:02 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Shipboard, that makes sense. People assigned to land are a different story. Close quarters aboard ship is one thing, airplanes too.

So the Navy is forced to hire people who can't sail on ships, the Air Force is forced to hire people who can't fly in airplanes, and the army is forced to hire people who can't ride in tanks. And why can't these people do these things? Because they're STUPID. That's fucking ridiculous, do you really think China is gonna be scared by an armed force like that?  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
4f3
uvx


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 19, 2022, 9:12:46 PM12/19/22
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People who from an epidemiological point of view, get suppressed by ideologists such as you, John. What are going for, Covid reduction or obedience to the Democratic Party? 

From Twitter-

I remember how proud I was when I became a naturalized American citizen. I'm still proud to be an American, and I don't care that disapproves of my using the term.
Quote Tweet
Elliot Kaufman
@ElliotKaufman6
WSJ editorial: Call yourself an “American”? Please don’t. It’s on Stanford’s new index of forbidden words. wsj.com/articles/the-s






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Sent: Mon, Dec 19, 2022 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 19, 2022, 9:16:21 PM12/19/22
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For people at close proximity it's a given that vaccines are a necessity. For others who serve the nation, leeway must be given. Unless, that is, one is focused on obedience and is trying to make a political statement? Do you also disapprove of Pfizer's Paxlovid treatments because "they cost too much?" 

No surprise there! 


-----Original Message-----
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To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 19, 2022 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 19, 2022, 9:20:53 PM12/19/22
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This was Stanford professor Jay Bhattacharya who has a thing or two to contribute to any discussion on Covid. If you want to take a shot at him JC go ahead. But ya better bring Kryptonite!






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Brent Meeker

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Dec 19, 2022, 11:08:38 PM12/19/22
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A search for published research on Google Scholar turns up lots of  Bhattacharya's, (must translate to "Smith" in some language) but no "Jay" and none on vaccines.  So he's not exactly an leading expert.

Brent

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 2:08:56 AM12/20/22
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The language is Hindi I believe. 
There are others looking at the vaccines more carefully than you and John.

Counter argument-
DeSantis' anti-vax grand jury petition suggests that a rise in cardiac-related mortality in young people might be caused by vaccines. Of course, if you actually look at the study, you'll see—shockingly—that the rise predates vaccination. Because it's mostly due to COVID itself.

I am willing to find out whether it (the vax) does or does not present a danger to a minority of the public. 

Bhattacharya is a prof at Stanford and that is one thing neither you nor I are.  

For the democrat practice of character assassination (which work great for your team members but not ours) there is Professor Makary, at Johns Hopkins, who sides with Bhattacharya. 

professor, member, alum, author of 2 NYT bestselling books. Honest debate is healthy, I can be persuaded


"Lancet study of Covid+ and - teens found “poor well-being, fatigue & Long COVID were broadly similar” but loneliness increased steadily. Take home message—Long-covid is not the mass disabling complication that has permanently damaged a generation of children, social isolation is."

All I want is to find out so as to save lives. It would seem that practicing public health should be adjustable to discoveries in medical science.

Seems sensible at first blush. Unless there are underlying financial or obsessive-compulsive disorders happening?

Or, more directly to your flavor of your discussions: (Get Ready..)

If ya want Trump back, this is how ya get More Trump!!! (Laughter placed here) :" Bwah ha hah hah hah...."

Meanwhile,in a home in Florida-DeSantis Saves, Jesus too? Moses Invests, & Elvis Surfs

Meaning, if you wish to hurt DeSantis and now you may be on Don's side in this, you won't hurt his chances by focusing on his grand jury move. He'd have to look weak against Newsome of Cal. The only thing Newsome has going for him is that he has been far, more, active, than Joe-Kamala on Renewable energy. How significant in 24 will this be, we have way of knowing now. As one dem pollster said back on November 10th, if DeSantis can beat Trump in the primaries, there is no one on the Democratic side that can beat him.

DESANTA SAVES CHRISTMAS 2021 // Ron DeSantis // Florida // image 1




-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com>

Brent Meeker

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Dec 20, 2022, 2:51:11 AM12/20/22
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On 12/19/2022 11:08 PM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
The language is Hindi I believe.

That's all you've got say about your Champion.


There are others looking at the vaccines more carefully than you and John.

Typical bad medical statistics.  They set a threshold for significance of 1% false positive, but then applied it to 14 different "outcomes".  If there's a 1% chance of error that's 99% chance of no error...on each test. So the probability of finding at least one false positive is 0.99^14=0.869 or 13%. 

And what is the only "outcome" they identified as significant: Pulmonary embolism in in the inpatient setting.  In other words vaccinated persons who were also inpatients had a significantly higher risk of PE.  Don't suppose it could have anything to do with lying prone a lot, or being in a hospital with other sick people.



Counter argument-
DeSantis' anti-vax grand jury petition suggests that a rise in cardiac-related mortality in young people might be caused by vaccines. Of course, if you actually look at the study, you'll see—shockingly—that the rise predates vaccination. Because it's mostly due to COVID itself.

I am willing to find out whether it (the vax) does or does not present a danger to a minority of the public.
Define "danger".  One in chance in a thousand?  ten thousand?  hundred thousand?



Bhattacharya is a prof at Stanford and that is one thing neither you nor I are. 
And I know statistics which neither you nor he do.



For the democrat practice of character assassination (which work great for your team members but not ours) there is Professor Makary, at Johns Hopkins, who sides with Bhattacharya.

Oh well, now I'm really impressed there's some other guy who's taken sides.  Too bad nobody has an argument or data.



professor, member, alum, author of 2 NYT bestselling books. Honest debate is healthy, I can be persuaded


"Lancet study of Covid+ and - teens found “poor well-being, fatigue & Long COVID were broadly similar” but loneliness increased steadily. Take home message—Long-covid is not the mass disabling complication that has permanently damaged a generation of children, social isolation is."
All I want is to find out so as to save lives.

If that were true you'd be advocating that all the unvaccinated Trumpkins get vaccinations.


It would seem that practicing public health should be adjustable to discoveries in medical science.
Seems sensible at first blush. Unless there are underlying financial or obsessive-compulsive disorders happening?
Or, more directly to your flavor of your discussions: (Get Ready..)
If ya want Trump back, this is how ya get More Trump!!! (Laughter placed here) :" Bwah ha hah hah hah...."
Meanwhile,in a home in Florida-DeSantis Saves, Jesus too? Moses Invests, & Elvis Surfs
Meaning, if you wish to hurt DeSantis and now you may be on Don's side in this, you won't hurt his chances by focusing on his grand jury move. He'd have to look weak against Newsome of Cal. The only thing Newsome has going for him is that he has been far, more, active, than Joe-Kamala on Renewable energy. How significant in 24 will this be, we have way of knowing now. As one dem pollster said back on November 10th, if DeSantis can beat Trump in the primaries, there is no one on the Democratic side that can beat him.
And they're saying De Sanctimonious has no chance against The Stable Genius.

Why do you bother to type this made up shit?

Brent

John Clark

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Dec 20, 2022, 6:05:26 AM12/20/22
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On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 9:12 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>People who from an epidemiological point of view, get suppressed by ideologists such as you, John. What are going for, Covid reduction or obedience to the Democratic Party? 

I'm for not knocking a 100,000 ton nuclear aircraft carrier out of commission because some jackass is too stupid to get vaccinated.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
ygh

Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 20, 2022, 8:41:28 AM12/20/22
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As  child I was legally mandated to have vaccinations to go the school. Now the mindless right-wingnuts want to allow people who have false ideas about these things to have exemptions. Now this has percolated into the military. People with trash for brains have been winning the day.

LC

Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 20, 2022, 8:43:38 AM12/20/22
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This tee-shirt is nauseating.

LC 

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 11:39:13 AM12/20/22
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Such a nice little proggie puppet!

Delightfully cheering.

It looks great for DeSantis. If people oppose him, it won't be for have a grand jury look at the malpractices of the Dem party funder$.

Back to the science article, and we are talking about 2 things.  Statically we are looking at 1/100 of vaccine recipients. That a lot of people sick and then dead. Secondly, these are young people. who went along and then died. No pre-screening, just Dem insistence and coercion about taking the drug. People, including families of those who may have been killed, will likely seek retribution. 

 


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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 12:04:41 PM12/20/22
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There's also Makary at Johns Hopkins. I am more concerned that people get coerced into taking a vax they medically shouldn't.
Your medical speculation isn't any better or worse than any other member of the public. I see a increase in the death toll of athletes who shouldn't be keeling over. Why? Big pharma has tons of defense attorneys at their disposal, so any indictment by Floridians looks to be a temporary thing. Studies will be cited and if such studies indicate a hazard with the mRNA vaccines, let the truth be told. If there is no risk. let that be known. 

I advocate older Trumpkins get vaccinations. I advocate caution with younger people. They are the ones dying from an obvious reaction. But let's have the biologists do the measuring. If you are good with 1 out of 100 croaking, that's on you. I want to hear what physicians have to say, and physicians who work in emergency rooms. Pathologists.

What are you afraid of? Or, who are you protecting? 

If you are looking simply for somebody to bring down DeSantis, this won't be it. How does it feel to be with Trump politically against your mutual enemy? 





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Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 2:51 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Death, science, and politics

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 12:09:51 PM12/20/22
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Yeah, it was over the top, but it's the best I could find in a quick moment. 

It begs the question why rush to defend big pharma if it does sloppy work and insufficiently warned people about adverse reactions? There seems a strong likelihood that screening for adverse reactions could be put together. It might prevent the deaths of young people. For oldies? Yeah, take the vax. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 8:43 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 12:14:15 PM12/20/22
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Your medical commentary also points out the efficacy of a 100K carrier being taken down by a 100K PLA missile. 

To the point, you are always continually caviling about the stupid, white, Trumpies avoiding the vax and threatening your personal wellbeing. Well, it now appears vaccine aversion is not just a white thing.


How did this awful psychological virus spread from Trumpville to China?? You don't suppose......?

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Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 6:04 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 12:22:16 PM12/20/22
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I like the idea of people getting vaccinated. I oppose coercion, to ensure people who receive that vaccinations don't die of adverse reactions. I oppose those who appear to demand the vaccinations as a loyalty oath. It's simply a matter of identifying whether there is any true to the death rate and it is related? Maybe, the vaccinations need to be avoided from the young and reserved for older recipients? Or, maybe everyone should get them.

Let us hear from medical studies, and let us also hear from family physicians, and emergency room physicians, and yes pathologists. Because they are on the receiving end of the mortality. 



-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 8:41 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 20, 2022, 12:42:21 PM12/20/22
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 11:39 AM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 > Statically we are looking at 1/100 of vaccine recipients. That a lot of people sick and then dead.

BULLSHIT! And it is people just like you spreading this sort of quack medical advice that is killing people, thousands and thousands of people every fucking day. 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
uty




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Dylan Distasio

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Dec 20, 2022, 1:48:19 PM12/20/22
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I'd point out that the large majority of people in the US now have concerns over these particular vaccines based on how public health policy has been conducted over the last 2+ years.   You may be disappointed to find out that it's not just righty wingnuts who are questioning the reliability and veracity of public health agencies due to how they comported themselves, especially now that people have the benefit of hindsight.   The CDC in particular has done an incredible amount of damage to their previously sterling reputation.

US CDC data show that while about 69% of the US population has completed the primary 2-dose vaccine series, only about 14% of people aged 5 and older have received the updated booster.

This might have been avoided if public health agencies had avoided allowing themselves to be politicized, and been upfront about what they could know with certainty throughout this process, and honest enough to admit where things were not as clear cut.   

Instead of basing policy that would have a huge impact on businesses and people's livelihoods on science, many decisions were made arbitrarily:

They also disregarded natural immunity in regard to setting policy because it would overcomplicate things, and because in their opinion, people were too stupid to have a nuanced conversation on it.   

Instead of attempting an honest discussion and allowing those with concerns to voice them and potentially be refuted in the public square and in the literature, they, in concert, with the mainstream press attempted to squash any efforts to do so.   Anyone who expressed any concerns was publicly demonized by politicians, public figures, and the press.

It also didn't help that they changed the long standing definition of a vaccine (and no, I'm not buying their explanation and I doubt many others are):
https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/verify/coronavirus-verify/cdc-changed-vaccine-definition-more-transparent/

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv3Tp%2BD6dfhEAGxyRQKDEOBPz%3D4uZPwbbwvEhGyeaSD3oA%40mail.gmail.com.

John Clark

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Dec 20, 2022, 2:08:32 PM12/20/22
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:48 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd point out that the large majority of people in the US now have concerns over these particular vaccines

If they do it's because of constant scaremongering about the safety of the mRNA vaccine from right wing anti-science religious nitwits who think "The Flintstones" is a documentary. And I'd like to point out that thanks to the Covid mRNA vaccine having been given 12.7 billion times we now have superb information about its safety and, although NOTHING is 100% safe and even if there was you could never prove it, without a doubt it is one of the safest medications in the history of the world, it has already saved millions of lives and unless the epidemic of stupidity and misinformation intensifies it will save many millions more.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
rnw


 

Brent Meeker

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Dec 20, 2022, 6:06:28 PM12/20/22
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On 12/20/2022 10:47 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote:
I'd point out that the large majority of people in the US now have concerns over these particular vaccines based on how public health policy has been conducted over the last 2+ years.   You may be disappointed to find out that it's not just righty wingnuts who are questioning the reliability and veracity of public health agencies due to how they comported themselves, especially now that people have the benefit of hindsight.   The CDC in particular has done an incredible amount of damage to their previously sterling reputation.

US CDC data show that while about 69% of the US population has completed the primary 2-dose vaccine series, only about 14% of people aged 5 and older have received the updated booster.

This might have been avoided if public health agencies had avoided allowing themselves to be politicized, and been upfront about what they could know with certainty throughout this process, and honest enough to admit where things were not as clear cut.   

Instead of basing policy that would have a huge impact on businesses and people's livelihoods on science, many decisions were made arbitrarily:

Nonsense.  This is trolling.  That decision was made to mandate distancing was NOT arbitrary and is backed by the simplest science of any airborne disease.  That the distance was 6ft instead of 7ft or 6.5ft is obviously and necessarily arbitrary.  It would be ridiculous to delay such a mandate until a transmission rate versus distance  could be determined for different environments and then make an "ARBITRARY" decision about whether a probability of transmission of 0.001 is acceptable versus 0.0001? 


They also disregarded natural immunity in regard to setting policy because it would overcomplicate things, and because in their opinion, people were too stupid to have a nuanced conversation on it.  

And people apparently are.  They're too stupid to understand what "aribitrary" means.



Instead of attempting an honest discussion and allowing those with concerns to voice them and potentially be refuted
in the public square and in the literature,

On Twitter on 8Chan.  Yeah that'll work out well.


they, in concert, with the mainstream press attempted to squash any efforts to do so.  

"Squash" in the sense of not printing a lot of anti-vax propaganda that was "just asking questions".


Anyone who expressed any concerns was publicly demonized by politicians, public figures, and the press.

Yes, because experts that we hired to make these decisions knew a helluva lot more about it than politicians, celebrities, and reporters.  That's why we gave them the power to make decisions.  People who "expressed" concerns were mostly right wing trolls.

Brent

Dylan Distasio

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Dec 20, 2022, 7:08:39 PM12/20/22
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You can stay in the bubble if you'd like, and ignore the shift in public perception, but it's clearly real, and is not just a fringe when only 14% of the US population has gotten the latest booster.   If people actually had a large amount of confidence in public authorities and actually believed what the proclaimed severity of the risk of staying unboosted was, there would certainly be a lot more than 14% taking boosters out of self interest.   Most people did trust them initially which is why ~70% of the population took the first series.

Always interesting to observe the disconnect between echo chambers and the general population though...

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/97482c4f-278f-56bf-ad75-ad7b5c4b9122%40gmail.com.

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2022, 7:22:22 PM12/20/22
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I am willing to investigate to see if there are any problems with mRNA vaccines. If not, excellent. If there are, I want to know? 
You don't wish to know is your thing. What you started as a dem-loyalty post back-fired as it does outside the venue of this wee mailing list, thinking that people will line up with you against DeSantis is what this is all about. 

People want to know the medical truth. If you think this hating on DeSantis will ensure another 4 years for Joey, knock yourself out. Convincing Americans that that shouldn't have accurate medical knowledge won't go over well. 

Personally, I hope there is nothing to the mRNA accusation. Because it makes life easier.  

-----Original Message-----
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Dec 20, 2022, 7:57:37 PM12/20/22
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I have had the Pfizer shots and advocate these for most of our population. On the other hand, if some people have allergic reactions to these shots causing clotting and cardiomyopathy, why would anyone sane demand that they take medicine that will surely kill them? What kind of people demand loyalty unto death, for a public medical policy that doesn't differentiate for example about physiological or genetic susceptibility? 




Thus, all we need to do to reassure people is the willingness, so far undemonstrated by the CDC and NIH and Joey, to fund for testing those who might be vulnerable? It may be worth it medically speaking once identified to switch to other modalities. Astra-Zenica, the Chinese crap (50% effective) taking Paxlovid, masking up? 






-----Original Message-----
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To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 1:47 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

Stathis Papaioannou

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Dec 20, 2022, 8:22:47 PM12/20/22
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 11:57, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I have had the Pfizer shots and advocate these for most of our population. On the other hand, if some people have allergic reactions to these shots causing clotting and cardiomyopathy, why would anyone sane demand that they take medicine that will surely kill them? What kind of people demand loyalty unto death, for a public medical policy that doesn't differentiate for example about physiological or genetic susceptibility?

Clotting disorders and cardiomyopathy are not allergic reactions. You would not know that you would have these problems before you had them, otherwise of course you would not have the vaccine. You would have the vaccine because the risk of harm from it is a lot less than the risk of harm from the virus. The practice of inoculation with active smallpox, which preceded the invention of vaccination, carried a risk of severe disease and death, but it was used because the risk was still less than infection by respiratory spread.
 
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/38859130.255915.1671584253871%40mail.yahoo.com.


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Brent Meeker

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Dec 20, 2022, 8:42:06 PM12/20/22
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On 12/20/2022 4:08 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote:
> You can stay in the bubble if you'd like, and ignore the shift in
> public perception, but it's clearly real, and is not just a fringe
> when only 14% of the US population has gotten the latest booster.   If
> people actually had a large amount of confidence in public authorities
> and actually believed what the proclaimed severity of the risk of
> staying unboosted was, there would certainly be a lot more than 14%
> taking boosters out of self interest.   Most people did trust them
> initially which is why ~70% of the population took the first series.

And the reason for this mistrust is people in the echo chambers raising
questions whose answers they can't understand.

Brent

Jesse Mazer

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Dec 20, 2022, 11:17:44 PM12/20/22
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:48 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd point out that the large majority of people in the US now have concerns over these particular vaccines based on how public health policy has been conducted over the last 2+ years.   You may be disappointed to find out that it's not just righty wingnuts who are questioning the reliability and veracity of public health agencies due to how they comported themselves, especially now that people have the benefit of hindsight.   The CDC in particular has done an incredible amount of damage to their previously sterling reputation.

You are conflating different issues, plenty of people think the CDC has done a bad job at the policy level without this leading to any significant doubts about the vaccines or the CDC studies on their effects (see for example the criticisms of the CDC at https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/magazine/cdc-covid-response.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/briefing/monkeypox-cdc-walensky-covid.html ). And in any case, CDC studies are far from the only evidence we have, since there have been lots of independent academic studies of the vaccines, and studies from health institutions in other countries.
 

US CDC data show that while about 69% of the US population has completed the primary 2-dose vaccine series, only about 14% of people aged 5 and older have received the updated booster.

According to the December 2022 poll at https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-december-2022/ , about 22% of Americans have now gotten the booster, while another 16% plan to get it "as soon as possible", and another 12% are taking a "wait and see" approach. If we leave out the 27% in the poll who were not eligible because they haven't gotten the initial 2-dose series, that just leaves 21% who are eligible to get the booster but seem to actively prefer not to get it, and that group can be split into 13% who say they will get it if required (probably most of them only got the initial series because they were required), and 9% who got the initial series but say they definitely won't get the booster. Hardly evidence of a great shift in public opinion about whether the vaccines do what they're supposed to. 

Also, if your comment that "it's not just righty wingnuts" is meant to deny that vaccine skepticism is highly concentrated on the right, that isn't supported by the poll either, which shows a large partisan split in figure 8--among Democrats, 66% either have gotten the booster or plan to get it as soon as possible, among Republicans, only 17% fall into one of those categories. Only 1% of Democrats who are eligible to get the booster say they are definitely not going to get it, compared to 18% of Republicans.

 

John Clark

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Dec 21, 2022, 7:39:14 AM12/21/22
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 7:22 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> I am willing to investigate to see if there are any problems with mRNA vaccines.

How magnanimous of you to volunteer for this vitally important activity!  However, given the fact that 12.7 billion shots have already been given don't you imagine this has already been done, and done many many times by people with vastly greater knowledge and experience with the complex science of statistics than you have, in fact even greater than the mathematical knowledge that the wonderful Ron DeSantis has?

 
> Personally, I hope there is nothing to the mRNA accusation.

Of course there is nothing to the ignorant mRNA accusations, but that doesn't matter because the accusations will NEVER stop, not as long as the world is full of right wing anti-science semi-illiterates, just as the accusations that the moon landing was faked will never stop, or that a crashed interstellar flying saucer has been in a secret military base in Roswell New Mexico for 75 years, or that Jewish space lasers cause forest fires. This is because a belief that did not come into existence by reason cannot be destroyed by reason.

  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
ojm


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 8:50:21 AM12/21/22
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Well stated. I am not advocating vaccine aversion, and simply am deeply concerned about those individuals forced by government edict IF they have a vulnerability to the mRNA vaccines or anything else. Forcing someone to perish is the concern here. Taking the vaccines out of ignorance for these people, IF there is suppression of evidence, is a concern as well.


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 9:20:46 AM12/21/22
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So, you are indicating you are incurious about a mandated drug because it offends your political views? That is not following the science. We may have zero choice but to insist on injections whether it kills somebody or not? I would support the finding out of the truth, whatever the drawback. But then, I am not funding our dear Government. Not with fat cash donations that they simply adore. 

I never had heard that the Fla governor is vaccine averse. Only, he supports a grand jury looking into illegalities. Do you also oppose grand juries looking into cars that are built unsafe, at any speed? And, I had you pegged as a Ralph Nader fan! 

Meanwhile, Vax Heads, I follow the science and stumbled across this interesting article last night-

Golly, something like this may save lives. Naw! The Fauch has ruled this off-limits. Or was it Wollensky? 

If I was them, I would not be opposed to the search for any reactions from the vaccines, unless they themselves were involved with Pfizer & Moderna policies or a cover up? Then, its lawyer-up!






-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wed, Dec 21, 2022 7:38 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 9:33:07 AM12/21/22
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Nothing is 100% safe, no. But avoiding medicines that are safe for 99% and unsafe for someone's personal genetic expression, may make a drug 99 % unsafe, for them. Since, you're doing this out of politics and not medicine, I will opine that you will neither keep the Florida guv out of office, nor, will a grand jury boost his popularity. 

So, you're seriously unconcerned if some, few, croak, just so Joe's funder$ can continue to kick cash to the DNC? 

I'd be funding them also, to beat diseases. In fact, were I your humble dictator, I'd be printing trillion$ to get a return of the research (investments) for medicine, space, and energy. Would my evil scheme work out? I am thinking yeah, call it a guess.

Trumpilly, Grumpilly  Yours!
Spud

P.S. Where will you head if Donny makes it back to power in 2024? 




-----Original Message-----
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To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 21, 2022, 10:06:10 AM12/21/22
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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 9:20 AM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> So, you are indicating you are incurious about a mandated drug because it offends your political views?

No, it indicates I am incurious about YOUR medical opinions and advice because they are entirely determined by your political views as is your worldview about the very nature of reality itself. For you everything boils down to politics, and politics boils down to nothing but just figuring out who bribed who. It's interesting, cynics and very naïve people have a lot in common, one believes nothing anybody says and the other believes everything everybody says, so neither needs to use any brain power whatsoever.

> Golly, something like this may save lives. Naw! The Fauch has ruled this off-limits. Or was it Wollensky? If I was them, I would not be opposed to the search for any reactions from the vaccines, unless they themselves were involved with Pfizer & Moderna policies or a cover up? Then, its lawyer-up!

I would say that over the last 2 years the 3 greatest heroes have been Dr. Fauci, Pfizer, and Moderna, millions of people who are now alive would be dead without them, and yet those are the ones you choose to demonize. And I have no idea who "Wollensky" is, but if you don't like him then he's probably a pretty fine fellow.

  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
oyu

2de


How magnanimous of you to volunteer for this vitally important activity!  However, given the fact that 12.7 billion shots have already been given don't you imagine this has already been done, and done many many times by people with vastly greater knowledge and experience with the complex science of statistics than you have, in fact even greater than the mathematical knowledge that the wonderful Ron DeSantis has?
 
> Personally, I hope there is nothing to the mRNA accusation.

Of course there is nothing to the ignorant mRNA accusations, but that doesn't matter because the accusations will NEVER stop, not as long as the world is full of right wing anti-science semi-illiterates, just as the accusations that the moon landing was faked will never stop, or that a crashed interstellar flying saucer has been in a secret military base in Roswell New Mexico for 75 years, or that Jewish space lasers cause forest fires. This is because a belief that did not come into existence by reason cannot be destroyed by reason.


ojm


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 10:45:01 AM12/21/22
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Nada. If Joe Joe or Governor Newsome of Cali pursued this as policy (A governor can just order the release of info) but governors cannot without a court order, I'd have been supportive, si? This is why I diverge from your personality thing driven by ideology, and stress policy as my focus. You don't see me bitching about Joe's policy on Ukraine do ya? 

For example, I am much more intense upon EV's and Hybrids, driven by solar with a charging infrastructure (new), than either Newsome or Joey. Why? I see this as a way out from under financing the Putin war machine. Which along with Xi, I view as a existential threat. 

What I never ever would have done is ban fracking and drilling like Joey done, from Jan 22nd, 2021, using the Bureau of Land Management. Why? Because you don't take out the old system without have a new one in ready to go! You don't take out a patients' bad heart without having a donor heart ready to go in. This is exactly what Joe Joe did. 

He simply wants to please environmental Green bozos that fund your party. Tom Steyer would be one. 




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Sent: Wed, Dec 21, 2022 10:05 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 21, 2022, 11:42:50 AM12/21/22
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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:44 AM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> What I never ever would have done is ban fracking and drilling like Joey done, 

You keep repeating that lie even though, as I pointed out before, Joe Biden has NOT banned fracking. And you keep repeating that we really should start investigating the safety of the Covid vaccine while ignoring the fact that because 12.7 billion shots have already been given, the safety of the vaccine is already known with greater accuracy than any other medication in the history of the world.  But I guess you've decided to do what Donald Trump does and figure if you just keep repeating the same lie over and over again eventually people are going to start to believe it.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

hmu

Brent Meeker

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Dec 21, 2022, 2:48:01 PM12/21/22
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Bullshit.  Potato Boy's only concern is to foment distrust of the government. 

Brent

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 4:07:48 PM12/21/22
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I studied what Joe did, before I criticized him. He banned fracking on public lands, then he didn't.  When prices went up in 21, he rescinded the ban. He hemmed and hawed about drilling in Alaska, and then decided to drill. He has gone back and forth about ocean drilling. 

Now, I could present evidence of my assertions, but you are not interested in such, because it rubs against your party-loyalty, which is the only 'faith' you have. This is probably more than myself, so each to their own!

About the mRNA, you deliberately avoid wanting not only yourself, but anyone else from seeing if there has been unintentional fatalities, from the 12.7 billion shots? In any case, the grand jury move by D will go ahead. Will it have any impact, I don't know? Is there any cover up involved? I don't know?

Has there been deaths from the vaccinations? I don't know? All I say is, let's have a look?
Is your primary reason for objecting to the grand jury medically based? Obviously not. 
Is it politically driven as a thing for democrat voters to rally to as a cause against DeSantis? For sure. 

Will this work as a political strategy for the DNC to pursue against DeSantis to thwart having to run against him in 2024? No. He has been too successful as a governor to be defeated by something only the democrats insist on, Protecting their campaign contributors, Pfizer & Moderna $$$. Most rank and file democrats will not care that much about their party's deep pocket funders. This is a fact. 

Do republicans seek to protect THEIR campaign donors? You bet your sweet ass we do! Who am I talking about? Fossil Fuel producers and Defense contractors $$$. 

Am I trying to harm Pfizer and Moderna because they send Schiff money? No. They will send the DNC money whether I stomp my feet or not.

So, now that we've got that all solved.....




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Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 4:24:03 PM12/21/22
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Yeah, trust the government axiomatically! So we should trust our Fuhrers' is that it? 
Sorry bud, the American people respectfully disagree with your plea for adoration of the attorneys and their loyal servants. 






Jesse Mazer

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Dec 21, 2022, 4:33:44 PM12/21/22
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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 4:07 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


Has there been deaths from the vaccinations? I don't know? All I say is, let's have a look?

That doesn't seem like a good question to ask if we're thinking about policy, any vaccine whatsoever probably has some miniscule risk of causing complications that lead to death, see section 4 of the pre-Covid 2016 paper at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/ ...but as long as the risk from dying of the vaccine is significantly smaller than the risk of being unvaccinated and dying from a complication after catching the disease, vaccination should still be recommended as a general policy, no? And there have already been studies of this with the Covid vaccine, for example the one at https://www.acc.org/Latest-in-Cardiology/Articles/2022/02/09/12/56/Vaccine-Associated-Myocarditis-Risk-in-Context found that although the risk of myocarditis linked to the vaccine may be a little higher than the risk of myocarditis linked to Covid if we're looking specifically at men under 29, the overall risk of hospitalization is significantly higher with Covid for unvaccinated men under 29 (since Covid can cause people to be hospitalized for lots of reasons other than myocarditis), and the study didn't turn up any instances of people actually dying from myocarditis after getting the vaccine, but it did find some deaths from Covid among unvaccinated men in this age group.

Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 21, 2022, 7:36:17 PM12/21/22
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On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:07:48 PM UTC-6 spudb...@aol.com wrote:


Am I trying to harm Pfizer and Moderna because they send Schiff money? No. They will send the DNC money whether I stomp my feet or not.

So, now that we've got that all solved.....

Sure big pharma sends money to the DNC poohbahs, at about the same rate they send money to the RNC poohbahs. The financial, banking, corporate world sends money to both parties, that way they have money influence over elected representatives. It is even simpler than what you think. Please, stop listening to political trash; political media crap is largely meant for people with bad brains.

LC

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 7:47:25 PM12/21/22
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Well, young people have died so let us see if it is probable that it was instead some unknown or underlying medical condition, rather than mRNA? It's a good reason to see, furthermore of researcher can tag the cause ahead of people getting vaccinated.

Here is Nature with a 2 day old article on all vaccinations.

Here the CDC's view on the vaccinations-

Here is CNN report indicating that reactions to the jab appear minor-

Here is Kaiser monitoring reports-

Here is Public Health Toronto with a related summary-PDF

Here is from the British Medical Journal calling for more research because of the deaths triggering concern.

The Journal Science-

Last, researchers ain't gawdz. 
https://www.science.org/content/article/we-made-mistake-omicron-origin-study-retracted-after-widespread-criticism

Moral? We should find out if the mRNA vaccines do cause harm to a few, Even if-
DeSantis becomes president.
Joe gets elected to a 2nd term.
Trump ascends the presidency a 2nd time an appoints Lawrence Crowell his Science Advisor and JC his NASA Administrator. 
AOC ascends the presidency with brilliance and panache!

To Jesse, I am good with whatever is found by researchers so we can better protect patients as necessary, and decrease mortality. You defended Jason Resch when he had the audacity to suggest we look at anything that could treat COVID as being an agent for mortality reduction. A Shonda! "Help Help me Shonda!"

I conclude that work is being done by the FDA that would offer treatments for Covid while avoiding injecting patients who have any vaccine vulnerabilities (if proved!!).





-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Mazer <laser...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 21, 2022 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics


On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 4:07 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


Has there been deaths from the vaccinations? I don't know? All I say is, let's have a look?

That doesn't seem like a good question to ask if we're thinking about policy, any vaccine whatsoever probably has some miniscule risk of causing complications that lead to death, see section 4 of the pre-Covid 2016 paper at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/ ...but as long as the risk from dying of the vaccine is significantly smaller than the risk of being unvaccinated and dying from a complication after catching the disease, vaccination should still be recommended as a general policy, no? And there have already been studies of this with the Covid vaccine, for example the one at https://www.acc.org/Latest-in-Cardiology/Articles/2022/02/09/12/56/Vaccine-Associated-Myocarditis-Risk-in-Context found that although the risk of myocarditis linked to the vaccine may be a little higher than the risk of myocarditis linked to Covid if we're looking specifically at men under 29, the overall risk of hospitalization is significantly higher with Covid for unvaccinated men under 29 (since Covid can cause people to be hospitalized for lots of reasons other than myocarditis), and the study didn't turn up any instances of people actually dying from myocarditis after getting the vaccine, but it did find some deaths from Covid among unvaccinated men in this age group.
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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2022, 8:33:12 PM12/21/22
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Larry, rather than bad brains, let us conclude that not all of us are neurobiologically fit to become a physicist, or in Johnny's case, an engineer. Maybe, I can look up how Musk is doing with his neural chips and pick up a 12 pack? Still, I am concluding that whatever gifts you guys possess it gets eclipsed by your belief systems. 

For a corrupt political establishment, I would ask you to refute this study indicating that the US is not a type of oligarchy. Note: I am not saying that the reason I am not living in the Playboy Mansion while being the Director of Fermilab, is because of this "oligarchy"  that I honk about. 

Refute if you have the time?
Major Study Finds the US Is an Oligarchy (businessinsider.com)

Here also is a New Republic article which should sufficiently Left enough to be considered trustworthy by JC and yourself.

The Nation-safely one of yours..not giving you the Epoch Times.

The New Yorker- The editors probably went to your First Communion?

Senator, Bernie Sanders-  (psst! I agree with the Bern!)

Salon!

If, I am correct, so what do we do about it? 
Me: Nothing. It's their power, their laws, their cash. Get some sleep. We'll discuss anti-De Sitter Space in the morning. 

30 years ago the former editor of National Lampoon, P.J. O' Rourke  published a semi-serious look at this system, Parliament of Whores.

On the other hand what you suggested earlier is akin to what Harry Lime said (Orson Welles) in The Third Man, by Graham Greene- sound on please. 

Goodbye, Harry, er, uh, Larry! ;-)



-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wed, Dec 21, 2022 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 22, 2022, 5:32:05 AM12/22/22
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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 7:47 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well, young people have died so let us see if it is probable that it was instead some unknown or underlying medical condition, rather than mRNA? It's a good reason to see, furthermore of researcher can tag the cause ahead of people getting vaccinated.

Here is Nature with a 2 day old article on all vaccinations.

 
And you think that article supports your position and that of the Republican death cult?! You think that when the journal Nature says that "global vaccination rates have hit their lowest point since 2008" they were applauding that fact? I don't think so. I think it supports my position that you haven't even read most of the many many links you typically spew out in nearly every post, I think you just type in something into a search engine and then vomit out the first dozen hits to the list.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
uvx



 

Brent Meeker

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Dec 23, 2022, 9:45:35 PM12/23/22
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On 12/18/2022 10:02 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
So, you're convinced that there is no concern for adverse reactions from the mRNA vaccinations?
You're asking that when there's concern for Jewish space lasers?  concern for Lizard people posing as human?  concern for pedophilia rings eating babies?  concern that hundreds of election officials in a half-a-dozen states committed election fraud? 

Nobody is having medical problems from, in many cases, coerced into taking the vaccinations.

Medical problems?  One person had a headache?  or 200 people died?  Why would coerced people have more problems than the millions of people who took it voluntarily...and who therefore constitute an enormous statistical sample?

Or is it merely, that I glommed Epoch Times as a source?

So, if I supplied a medical study, if I ever stumbled across such a study, you'd peruse it?

Why not "study" the 224 million US citizens fully vaccinated.  If there is a 0.01% death rate from vaccination then they would be two thousand deaths from vaccination.  Those should be easy to find.  So publish the names.

Brent



-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2022 11:36 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 6:01:52 AM UTC-6 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:19 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>the thing is scientifically is not to do what the dem-progressives do which is demand that everyone get vaccinated, but to have some biological screening done to prevent those with medical-genetic dispositions to be harmed by vaccination damage, to not be subjected to a death warrant? 

We have excellent data on the safety of the Covid vaccine because worldwide 12.7 BILLION shots have been given, so now we know that it is one of the safest medications in the history of the world. The most common side effect is anaphylactic shock which occurs in 5 people out of 1 million, however none of those cases have been fatal. It's impossible to prove that anything is 100% safe but we know for certain that the set of people who have received a "death warrant" because of the vaccine is tiny and may indeed be the null set. However the set of people who are alive because of the Covid shot is HUGE.    

> is there a thing between one political party receiving donation$ from Pfizer and Moderna?

Yeah yeah, we've heard that paranoid right wing crap before. And why the hell would you want to demonize Pfizer and Moderna?! Those two companies have saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars!
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
tod

Spudboy has little credibility IMO. I dismiss most of his posts are conspiratorial fear-mongering nonsense.

LC
 



Tucker Carlson made a big stink on his silly Fox show when he said 4863 people died shortly after receiving a Covid shot. What he said was true but what he didn't say was that more than 285 MILLION shots had been administered so that's just 0.0017% , and he didn't mention that 80% of those were over 60 years old, and he didn't mention that number included those who died from any cause including car crashes and lightning strikes, and he didn't mention that not a single one of those 4863 deaths has been conclusively linked to the Covid shot. And he didn't mention that the Covid vaccine has saved an estimated 3 million lives in the US and 20 million lives worldwide. 

20% of the US population (nearly all members of the Republican death cult) has still not received one single Covid shot, do you seriously believe the world would be a better place if that percentage was even higher? Do we really need more vaccine skepticism? 

 
8ha

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 24, 2022, 12:58:06 AM12/24/22
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Oh, come on admit it? What are you afraid of? Let's have the truth and be done with it. Do the vaccines harm a fraction of young people or not? That simple. 




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To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Lawrence Crowell

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Dec 24, 2022, 8:40:26 AM12/24/22
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On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:58:06 PM UTC-6 spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Oh, come on admit it? What are you afraid of? Let's have the truth and be done with it. Do the vaccines harm a fraction of young people or not? That simple. 



Or, why don't you research it? The evidence suggests that vaccines against Covid have saved several million American lives and maybe 10 times that worldwide. The largest cluster of problems were with the J&J vaccine in 2020. I will make this simple. Look at this Mortality Rate and Characteristics of Deaths Following COVID-19 Vaccination - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34055843/ . Reported are 55 vaccine related deaths per 8.2 million. Covid deaths run about .5% of cases, and without the vaccine out of 8.2 million they may have been 41,000 deaths.

LC

John Clark

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Dec 24, 2022, 8:45:20 AM12/24/22
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On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 12:58 AM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>  Let's have the truth and be done with it. Do the vaccines harm a fraction of young people or not?

Not.
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
0uo
t

Henrik Ohrstrom

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Dec 24, 2022, 9:26:46 AM12/24/22
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Vaccination transform a dangerous pandemic into an "also" as in the patient also has covid.
But and that is a big but, covid is not the reason for the patient being in intensive care or whatever. 
Without vaccination we would still be in the danger zone where a covid infection is a severe danger to everyone involved.
How much vaccination troubles have we had in Sweden? Some of course. Nothing is completely harmless. Less harm than from the unchecked virus? Very much so. Very very much less harm than the virus.

So harping about the vaccination? Yes everything should be questioned. But come on. The red argumentation in the UD is on the scientific level of Stalins Soviet.
I am not impressed at all.
/Henrik 

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Dec 24, 2022, 5:52:20 PM12/24/22
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I take the vaccine and I expect you do as well. If so few young people are indeed dying, then there should be NO worries for your precious Big Pharma friends. But let us have the facts, and all the facts. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 24, 2022 8:40 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:58:06 PM UTC-6 spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Oh, come on admit it? What are you afraid of? Let's have the truth and be done with it. Do the vaccines harm a fraction of young people or not? That simple. 



Or, why don't you research it? The evidence suggests that vaccines against Covid have saved several million American lives and maybe 10 times that worldwide. The largest cluster of problems were with the J&J vaccine in 2020. I will make this simple. Look at this Mortality Rate and Characteristics of Deaths Following COVID-19 Vaccination - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34055843/ . Reported are 55 vaccine related deaths per 8.2 million. Covid deaths run about .5% of cases, and without the vaccine out of 8.2 million they may have been 41,000 deaths.

LC
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 23, 2022 9:45 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics



On 12/18/2022 10:02 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
So, you're convinced that there is no concern for adverse reactions from the mRNA vaccinations?
You're asking that when there's concern for Jewish space lasers?  concern for Lizard people posing as human?  concern for pedophilia rings eating babies?  concern that hundreds of election officials in a half-a-dozen states committed election fraud? 

Nobody is having medical problems from, in many cases, coerced into taking the vaccinations.

Medical problems?  One person had a headache?  or 200 people died?  Why would coerced people have more problems than the millions of people who took it voluntarily...and who therefore constitute an enormous statistical sample?

Or is it merely, that I glommed Epoch Times as a source?

So, if I supplied a medical study, if I ever stumbled across such a study, you'd peruse it?

Why not "study" the 224 million US citizens fully vaccinated.  If there is a 0.01% death rate from vaccination then they would be two thousand deaths from vaccination.  Those should be easy to find.  So publish the names.

Brent
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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 24, 2022, 5:54:17 PM12/24/22
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If you are so confident, then you have zero reason to complain about an investigation. It will, thus, be a mere waste of time, like the Jan 6th Committee. 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Cc: meeke...@gmail.com <meeke...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 24, 2022 8:44 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 24, 2022, 6:12:55 PM12/24/22
to henrik....@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
In any case, it is wisest to know the scientific truth. The medical truth. Do a small fraction of people suffer terminal injury from the vaccinations or no? 

Don't care as long as a majority live, that's a personal choice. Coercion from a government to force people to vaccinate? At times this might be necessary, yep. Insisting up vaccinations on some that induce fatalities? IF this is a Fact? And it may NOT be? 

Public health should not be a death warrant.  

Drug companies trying to hide evidence? A possibility. 

Doing public health based on ideology? Insisting that a cover up continue to benefit Party contributors? 

Criminal. 

So, to inform us better, let us find out and see if Big Pharma had evidence. 

No? That's fine. Yes? Let's save a few lives. 




-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik....@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Cc: meeke...@gmail.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 24, 2022 9:26 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 24, 2022, 6:29:32 PM12/24/22
to everyth...@googlegroups.com

Three-dimensional nanofabrication via ultrafast laser patterning and kinetically regulated material assembly


This is just a the abstract and not the article itself with all the essential details necessary to assay the research.


Three-dimensional nanofabrication via ultrafast laser patterning and kinetically regulated material assembly | Science

Henrik Ohrstrom

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Dec 24, 2022, 6:42:47 PM12/24/22
to spudb...@aol.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
Life is dangerous.
A fraction of everyone who is vaccinated will die.
That is reality.
A fraction of everyone who is vaccinated the old school way, that is getting sick, will die. 
That is also reality.
If problems from vax > problems from getting sick then we have a problem.
Now will that get any better by going at it the way you do now?
F and h no.
Grow up and start doing science without all the whining.
What are you Mr spudboy actually doing to improve this?
I implement vaccination and best intensive care practice. I report side effects and complications. I follow up effects in reality. I read and try to evaluate the relevant publications.
 I do not do stupid, Yes stupid fearmongering for political reasons/gain. 
And yes forcing people to do stuff is bad. It is however NOT a defect of the vaccine.
/Henrik 

John Clark

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Dec 25, 2022, 5:43:57 AM12/25/22
to spudb...@aol.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
On Sat, Dec 24, 2022  <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>  let us have the facts, and all the facts.

You keep repeating that over and over again like a parrot as if nobody had ever thought of doing that before while ignoring the fact that today no medication in the history of the world has been scientifically investigated more intensely than the Covid vaccine. Worldwide vaccine cynicism has already killed tens of millions of people and I'm not just talking about Covid, the Taliban and religious imbeciles like them are the only reason the polio virus has not gone extinct,  and opposition to the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, and rubella) results in tens of thousands of children dying each year who need not have. Ignorance is the most deadly disease there is, but you believe what the world really needs is even more vaccine cynicism!

> If you are so confident, then you have zero reason to complain about an investigation.

I am very confident the conclusion that will be reached by Ron fucking DeSantis's fucking Grand Jury will be whatever it is that they figure will be most politically advantageous to the Republican death cult and will have absolutely positively NOTHING to do with science or even with basic humanity.

> It will, thus, be a mere waste of time, like the Jan 6th Committee. 

And I am also very confident that Ron fucking DeSantis's fucking Grand Jury will be composed entirely of people like you who believe the January 6 committee was a waste of time.  

> your precious Big Pharma friends

I plead guilty, call me a monster if you want but I have very friendly feelings towards "Big Pharma" or any organization that has saved millions of lives through brilliant scientific research.
 
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
uyi


0

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 25, 2022, 11:41:23 AM12/25/22
to johnk...@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
The reason I repeat is that they only reason you oppose so vehemently, an investigation is that it may uncover something that makes DeSantis look smoking hot! That is all JC and this is transparent. For me, investigating is good medical policy. For you, it's rally round the democrats and their Corporate Funder$ in a loyalty oath. If Big Pharma's meds kill young people, it's an acceptable loss. 

Got ya! For me, this is an insane policy by bribed politicians including Joey, insisting on coerced vaccinations. By the way,, have you considered that with the instability your team brings, we'll wind up Not with Trump, Not with DeSantis, but with dear, old, Governor Abbott? 

See the source image

I think an investigation is necessary to find out if young people are croaking in droves or not? But that's just me. They eyes of Texas are upon you JC. "Fasten your seatbelts, this is going to be a bumpy ride!" -Bette Davis All About Eve.
Stay warm! 

It's cold everywhere. 



-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 25, 2022 5:43 am
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 25, 2022, 12:04:28 PM12/25/22
to henrik....@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
How am I improving things? I support DeSantis's idea.
Life is dangerous, and before seatbelts were installed more people died.

If the vaccine is perilous to a tiny few, you are still good with forcing these to take the vax?
You don't wish to give them the chance to opt out? That is the debate here, and not the success of the vaccines, it is for those that may be susceptible to damage (if any?). I am against any potential suppression of scientific evidence. 

So, if we find out that some people would die if they took a certain heart medication, based on science, would you object to them dropping out because, of course medicines kill people!!! What is there IS something to fear? What if this is a known factor? What if Moderna or Pfizer is withholding that data, how would we know? All, I am asking is let us find out?






-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik....@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com; meeke...@gmail.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 24, 2022 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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John Clark

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Dec 25, 2022, 12:39:27 PM12/25/22
to spudb...@aol.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 11:41 AM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> The reason I repeat is that they only reason you oppose so vehemently, an investigation is that it may uncover something that makes DeSantis's look smoking hot! 

A grand jury investigating a scientific subject run by Ron DeSantis would be about as fair minded as one of Stalin's show trials and would indeed make DeSantis look smoking hot, or at least that's what he thinks, after all political advancement by improve public relations is the only reason he would do such a thing. However I think it would make him look smoking hot only in the way that Lucifer is, or Mephistopheles or Satan or Beelzebub.

> For me, this is an insane policy by bribed politicians

Well of course it is for you, for you the world is very simple, for you all of history and all of current events can be explained by just two words "bribed politicians" and there's no need to think any deeper than that.  

> I think an investigation is necessary

Do you really believe you're making a brave revolutionary statement when you say that? Do you really believe such an investigation has not already been made and will continue for as long as the vaccine is in use, and investigated by people who, unlike Ron DeSantis, have serious  scientific chops?  And do you really believe the outcome of DeSantis's ridiculous grand jury of scientific illiterates and religious fanatics is not already known and, Science be damned, is predetermined to be to the political advantage of the Republican death cult? You've posted some interesting links in the last couple of days so I know you're not a stupid man, so I don't think you believe that.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
uhv


spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 25, 2022, 1:34:55 PM12/25/22
to johnk...@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
It's not about fairness, it is about using the adversarial court system to extort the medical data from people who may be deliberately withholding it from the public, those being the boards of directors of Big Pharma. This also causes academia who works with Big Pharma, for legal and reputational reasons to cover their professional asses, so as not to be successfully sued, and or prosecuted by district attorneys representing a roused public. This'd be not only biologists but more, specifically, University Administrators and, who cut the deal$ and their legal team. :-)  Both Pharma and the Universities have tons of money and attorneys to represent them. The kid who the CDC, and the Dem politiciams send to die (possibly?) have no representation.

Like the old Union song went, JC; "Which side are you on, boy, which side are you on?"

I just want the medical researchers to dot i's and cross t's to make sure. DeSantis's proposal is sound, and I support it. 

For politics, unless Governor Newsome is better than I rate him, and he could be, we'll, get Donny, DeSantis, or Abbott. Name your poison?

The reasons for this we might discuss later. When we get all worked up again!

Which side are you on, boy, which side are you on?"

In the meantime, stay warm, and stay involved!

Happy Newtonmas or as I prefer, Heisenberg Month (Dec 5th). That's the trouble the Heisenberg, ya never know where he will be or when? 





-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>; meeke...@gmail.com <meeke...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 25, 2022 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

spudb...@aol.com

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Dec 25, 2022, 2:00:57 PM12/25/22
to johnk...@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com, meeke...@gmail.com
Well, you know what they say John, at Snake Dances its always best to let the snake lead. 

For me, we need not have a Church conviction of Galileo, just check and see my fellow serfs if some young'uns died suspiciously and any autopsy evidence? Is there any information about Pfizer withholding evidence? Did Timmy have a family history of clots, or inflammatory disease, cardi-myopathy? Did he drop dead from Covid itself? Yeah., I'd trust a jury to perform this.

If big pharma is indicted, they are protected by law, and have lots of attorneys to appeal. If this causes researchers to double down and it clears the vaccines as being 99.99% safe, that is a good thing. 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>; meeke...@gmail.com <meeke...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 25, 2022 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: Death, science, and politics

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