A sun-like star orbiting a black hole

[John Clark]

The November 2 2022 issue of the journal "Monthly Notices Of The Royal Astronomical Society'' reports on the discovery of the nearest Black Hole ever found, it's just 1600 light years from Earth, that's 3 times closer than the next nearest one. It has nearly 10 times the mass of the sun but what makes it unusual is that it's a very calm and quiet Black Hole and is not producing any detectable X-rays or radio waves, apparently very little matter is currently falling into it. The hole was found by the wobble it induced in a G type star very similar to the sun, with the same metallic content and with 93% of the sun's mass, that is in orbit around the Black Hole.

Another unusual thing about it is the orbital period is186.6 days, and that's the longest orbital period ever found for a star orbiting a stellar mass Black Hole, and its orbit is also the most nearly circular of any ever found. The original star that produced the Black Hole must've had at least 20 solar masses and exploded in a supernova; so it's a mystery why the sun-like star that is now in orbit around the Black Hole looks so normal and why its orbit is so nearly circular considering the fact that it had to endure a very nearby supernova and the star it's orbiting suddenly lost half its original mass during the supernova cataclysm.  

A Sun-like star orbiting a black hole

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

sle

[Lawrence Crowell]

I just did a quick Newton/Kepler calculation and found this star is about 6x10^{11}m or 6x10^8km for the black hole. By comparison Earth is 1.5x10^8km from the sun. 

LC

[spudb...@aol.com]

So going full science fiction on this, a highly, advanced, civilization, has not only controlled the stability of their home star, giving it trillions of years of stellar life, but has, long ahead of this, learned to harvest energy or perhaps wormhole travel, utilizing this black hole!  There!

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-6 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

So going full science fiction on this, a highly, advanced, civilization, has not only controlled the stability of their home star, giving it trillions of years of stellar life, but has, long ahead of this, learned to harvest energy or perhaps wormhole travel, utilizing this black hole!  There!

Planetary orbits around the sun-like star would not be stable. A planet around the sun-like star would define nonintegrable 3-body problem. A black hole in principle could be harnessed for energy due to its angular momentum. Going into a black hole is suicide. A 10 solar mass black hole has large Weyl curvature and the tidal force on your body would rip you apart before you got within 100,000 km of it. A supermassive black hole would have smaller tidal forces, but there is nothing you can find inside to escape inevitable end of spacetime itself and death.

LC

[John Clark]

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 8:12 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Planetary orbits around the sun-like star would not be stable. A planet around the sun-like star would define nonintegrable 3-body problem.

But because the sun-like-star and the Black Hole are so much more massive than a planet like the earth couldn't you get a very good approximation by assuming it's just a 2-body problem? After all, the sun the earth and the moon are 3 bodies and yet we can find a very good approximation of where the moon will be 1000 years from now.

John K Claek

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 6, 2022 8:32 am
Subject: A sun-like star orbiting a black hole

The November 2 2022 issue of the journal "Monthly Notices Of The Royal Astronomical Society'' reports on the discovery of the nearest Black Hole ever found, it's just 1600 light years from Earth, that's 3 times closer than the next nearest one. It has nearly 10 times the mass of the sun but what makes it unusual is that it's a very calm and quiet Black Hole and is not producing any detectable X-rays or radio waves, apparently very little matter is currently falling into it. The hole was found by the wobble it induced in a G type star very similar to the sun, with the same metallic content and with 93% of the sun's mass, that is in orbit around the Black Hole.

Another unusual thing about it is the orbital period is186.6 days, and that's the longest orbital period ever found for a star orbiting a stellar mass Black Hole, and its orbit is also the most nearly circular of any ever found. The original star that produced the Black Hole must've had at least 20 solar masses and exploded in a supernova; so it's a mystery why the sun-like star that is now in orbit around the Black Hole looks so normal and why its orbit is so nearly circular considering the fact that it had to endure a very nearby supernova and the star it's orbiting suddenly lost half its original mass during the supernova cataclysm.  

A Sun-like star orbiting a black hole

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

sle

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:37:34 AM UTC-6 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 8:12 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Planetary orbits around the sun-like star would not be stable. A planet around the sun-like star would define nonintegrable 3-body problem.

But because the sun-like-star and the Black Hole are so much more massive than a planet like the earth couldn't you get a very good approximation by assuming it's just a 2-body problem? After all, the sun the earth and the moon are 3 bodies and yet we can find a very good approximation of where the moon will be 1000 years from now.

John K Claek

Yes, but that quasi-stability might only last a few million or even just a few thousand years. There could not be a planet stable enough to host life or ETI.

LC

[John Clark]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 5:42 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> But because the sun-like-star and the Black Hole are so much more massive than a planet like the earth couldn't you get a very good approximation by assuming it's just a 2-body problem? After all, the sun the earth and the moon are 3 bodies and yet we can find a very good approximation of where the moon will be 1000 years from now.

 

> Yes, but that quasi-stability might only last a few million or even just a few thousand years. There could not be a planet stable enough to host life or ETI.

But with 8 planets and millions of less massive objects in orbit around the sun isn't our own solar system just quasi stable?  I don't think anybody has proven that in 1 billion years things might get chaotic and the earth could fall towards the sun or be ejected into an orbit beyond that of Neptune.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

e7r

 

[Lawrence Crowell]

There is chaos in the solar system. It is not completely integrable. Henri Poincare won the prize offered by the king of Sweden to solve the stability of the solar system problem. Poincare showed there was no stability. However, there is something called the Lyapunov exponent for the measure of chaos or separation of reality from a truncated set of assumed initial conditions. A putative planet arounda star orbiting a 10 solar mass black hole at around 4AU will have a huge Lyapunov exponent compared to the much tamer solar system.

LC

[spudb...@aol.com]

Your words ring true. I was doing mental science fiction based on a couple of things I have heard over the years. One, is that being wobbled around, and it need not be a nice elliptical orbit, would be conscious machinery who were once carbon-water a billion years before. So, without worrying about it today, yeah, no exit. Roger that, LC. 

Thanks.

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[spudb...@aol.com]

The issue is that it couldn't be random. Random means that it follows the Poincare equations, and that Einstein's ghost is happy with the gravity, Pierre Laplace buys Al some wine, upstairs, Friedmann smiles and all but a few physicists turning quantum into gravity, sweat the numbers and observations. This would be somebody who has no trouble for the last 50K years making solar power viable, sending off rockets, and has even split the atom, some would dare to think. 

These would be smart guys setting and harvesting black holes as an industry. Their reactive gravity and such. It's not just a roll of the gravity and mass, dice. So, lets continue observing and let the astronomers do what they do best, watch. Yeah they need a bigger budget to build better scopes and such. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>

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[Lawrence Crowell]

I am having a hard time making sense of what you wrote. I am not that enticed by the idea of hyper-tech ETI in the universe that can control whole stars or black holes. I presume that while they may be better than us, an almost hopelessly inferior form of intelligent life, they still likely have some vulnerability called stupidity.

LC

[spudb...@aol.com]

Heh! Maybe that is true. You are quoting Asimov who quoted the early Greeks, (Against stupidity, even the gods contend in vain!). 

It also triggers a mem from sci-fi guy and one-time astrophysicist, Alastair Reynolds, (sort of a spoiler), when a galaxy spanning women (It took over 100K years to go from one system across the Milky Way to another thus, some civilizations had gone extinct, and others flourished solidly. She accidently released a species of semi-smart robots, who had a singular task,  and that was till build terrarium like rotational cylinders with flourishing greenery within, across the galaxy. She released these wasp-like robs by accident, and after several billions of years the bots using whatever matter they arrived at, turned the mass cleverly (semi-intelligent) converted it into Terrarium colonies. In doing this accident, she accidently breaks the universe by shifting it's mass around. 

Am i hopeful that a smart people could do Black Hole mining? Eh, maybe. Here is an oldie from Isaac Arthur on Black Hole Farmers of the far future. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qam5BkXIEhQ

To the Galaxy, and Beyond!

Cap'n Zoom. 

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