Before Big Bang What?

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Philip Benjamin

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Jun 29, 2022, 2:23:58 PMJun 29
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-scientists-think-the-universe-was-like-before-the-big-bang/

[Sean Carroll & Jennifer Chen]

“But is it possible that something could have existed before the Big Bang? After all, something couldn't have come from nothing, right? It turns out the answer is a bit complicated.    For example, theoretical physicist (astronomer?) Sean Carroll at the California Institute of Technology and his colleague Jennifer Chen have created their own theory for what may have occurred before our universe. Their paper on the subject, published in 2004, suggested that our universe could have been created as a result of a piece of space-time splitting from a parent universe (via Cornell University)”.

[Philip Benjamin]

   Science is about observation, experimentation, logical analysis and rational inferences. What is the observation here? Only the universe as is! Nothing else. Does any sentence above obey the basic laws of logic, such as Law of Noncontradiction, Causality, Infinite Regress, Aseity etc.? Why can’t scientists be logical, rational and humble enough to at least admit that human mind is finite and science is incomplete, imprecise and indefinite. Nobody even knows what precisely even Big Bang is! Where did all that energy come from? Now to add to this irrationality, where did the parent universe come from?

Philip Benjamin    

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 30, 2022, 5:29:12 PMJun 30
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I do not want to get into this terribly much, not because of lack of interest (this is connected to what I work on) but more because a sense of futility. There is one difficulty with all of this; inflation stretched space into a homogenous space that bears little data concerning what came before inflation. Any fluctuation associated with the state of the cosmos prior to inflation has been stretched to scales that may bear imprints on the CMB or they may even be larger. If this cosmos in the inflationary or pre-inflationary stage interacted with other vacuum bubbles or there were other quantum gravitational physics it might have an imprint on the CMB. The structure of anisotropies of the CMB temperature or amplitude does contain some statistical kurtoses that may indicate something beyond a white noise or Gaussian spectrum. 

LC

Samiya Illias

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Jun 30, 2022, 9:25:01 PMJun 30
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Space: Before and Beyond

Abstract 
The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of the heavens and earth.  



Full Text 

وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ

لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between! 
If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! 
[Al-Quran 21:16-17, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


According to these ayaat, there is something, some place other than the heavens and the earth, which has existed since before it. It is outside what we call Space. In fact, regarding space, it states: 

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

And the heaven We constructed it with strength, and indeed, We (are) surely (its) Expanders. 
[Al-Quran 51:47]


Surah ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) again states that these heavens and earth are not without purpose:

وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ

مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) sport: 
We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not understand. 
[Al-Quran 44:38-39, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


The Quran mentions the HOW of the creation of the heavens and earth, but it focuses on the WHY. While it is fascinating to wonder about the HOW, it is important to focus on the purpose and consequent final outcome: 

الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ مَن تُدْخِلِ النَّارَ فَقَدْ أَخْزَيْتَهُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

Those who remember Allah standing, and sitting and on their sides and they reflect on (the) creation (of) the heavens and the earth, "Our Lord, not You have created this (in) vain. Glory be to You, so save us (from the) punishment (of) the Fire. 
Our Lord, indeed [You] whom You admit (to) the Fire then surely You (have) disgraced him, and not for the wrongdoers (are) any helpers. 
[Al-Quran 3:191-193, Translation: Yusuf Ali]



For more on purpose, please read Teleology: A purpose-built Universe? 


Science 
Scientist do not know if there was something before the 'Big Bang', the most popular theory about the origin of our Universe. Wikipedia states:  
Pre–Big Bang physics (PBBP) are physics which can be speculated to have existed prior to the Big Bang. PBBP may have been radically different from the current laws of physics.
Although theoretical speculation on possible PBBP has only begun, research into the field could hold incredible implications for the makeup of the universe, and numerous possibilities beyond the limit of the current laws of physics in possible existence prior to the Big Bang.
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2019/01/space-before-and-beyond.html 


On 01-Jul-2022, at 2:29 AM, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not want to get into this terribly much, not because of lack of interest (this is connected to what I work on) but more because a sense of futility. There is one difficulty with all of this; inflation stretched space into a homogenous space that bears little data concerning what came before inflation. Any fluctuation associated with the state of the cosmos prior to inflation has been stretched to scales that may bear imprints on the CMB or they may even be larger. If this cosmos in the inflationary or pre-inflationary stage interacted with other vacuum bubbles or there were other quantum gravitational physics it might have an imprint on the CMB. The structure of anisotropies of the CMB temperature or amplitude does contain some statistical kurtoses that may indicate something beyond a white noise or Gaussian spectrum. 
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Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 1, 2022, 10:07:43 AMJul 1
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In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?" It is similar to chasing the existential core down an infinite rabbit hole, maybe to become Dostoyevsky's underground man. There are no possible answers that can be rationally derived. Monotheist religions posit a disembodied conscious entity of infinite capacity, which because there is an infinite number of what might be called degrees of freedom virtually anything can be explained within the umbrella statement "God did it." 

There are no need for theological constructions. These ancient ideas are mythic narratives or so called wisdom literature meant to invoke metaphorical ideations. These things have nothing to do any scientific understanding. 

LC

spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 2, 2022, 8:55:20 PMJul 2
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To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for everything, no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied research inquiry. If God wills it and is the cause for everything than why study it? On the Udder Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in your path, strike him down."  Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, don't let me stop you. 

For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because its less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 

Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I present here. 
https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902

With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth your while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends itself nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the traditional religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In religiosity, it seems closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the fellow Heston chatted with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty good for 1956. Also, as I have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, as an atheist are in this fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," because you study what the big mind does, up close. It may enjoy what you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot covered peasants, such as myself, busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch cause me pig gave sour milk!" 

As always suspicious of me neighbor,
Spud (sniffling)

Samiya Illias

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Jul 2, 2022, 9:43:15 PMJul 2
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I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of humans (Adam and his progeny)?

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 3, 2022, 8:42:51 AMJul 3
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There was no Adam. The story of Adam and Eve etc. is pure myth. It is all a big pigeon drop scam. The pigeon drop scam is where somebody convinces another there is a grand some of money to be had if the person just renders 1/10 that amount. Of course, if the dupe pays his money nothing is exchanged. In the case of monotheism, the pigeon drop is about agreeing to certain terms claimed to be laid down by some infinite invisible being beyond the universe who says to agree means great eternal rewards. There is of course the negative part that to not agree brings eternal agony. This is a "mind forged manacle," to use Willian Blake's poetic line, that has enslaved humanity for centuries. We need to break free of these preposterous things and start living in more realistic and functional ways.

LC

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 3, 2022, 8:52:43 AMJul 3
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I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though that at a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise or with Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and becomes sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory to propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. This is actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I think automatically points to some sort of God.

LC

Brent Meeker

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Jul 3, 2022, 4:33:51 PMJul 3
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"It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous."
    ---- Gloria Steinem
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spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 3, 2022, 5:03:09 PMJul 3
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I'd say that perhaps the purpose of Adam and his Rib was to produce (eventually) so as to fix the universe. Some sort of long term adjustment, like with robots that can get black holes to rotate faster?? Something that is so far above our current capabilities that its truly laughable. Speaking of laughs-

George Carlin said, "maybe the earth wanted plastic, and couldn't make plastic on its own so it had to produce people to make plastic?"

Adam and Eve is best expressed today as the waitress calling for Adam and Eve on a log! Two fried eggs on a sausage. For today, getting the species to survive is enough of a challenge. 


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:42 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

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spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 3, 2022, 5:51:22 PMJul 3
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It may not be "God" but it may, more significantly, be mind. 

If its a Boltzmann Brain who woke with false memories, and was the only BB in quintillions of years to successfully open and sustain itself (as has been proposed) I say, who am I to be disinterested, disrespectful, or reject it, him, her, them? The point would be, that it seems interested in what you do for a living, what an astrophysicist does to earn a paycheck, and this may be sufficient. It reacts and responds, apparently. This may also have impact on how fast information can actually travel, or what detects what some people are doing? 

I won't get into the probability that UFO's is the BB is  interacting with subjects by giving us an anthropomorphic symbolism to gaze upon? My feeling is that people are more likely lying to get attention, than anything else, because lying works in so many other areas of human activity, so why not simply lie? Ball lightning created by piezo-electric geology thus becomes an alien intervention. 

I am primate-enough to enjoy the idea of a big mind, so for "God" us beggars can't be choosers, especially if He's got the time and interest to get things mended? For those who need this idea like a fork to the eye, I say, wonderful. Glad to hear that you have your emotions whipped into shape, because it sounds very healthy. No Problemo. Rock on! 




spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 3, 2022, 6:50:36 PMJul 3
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I would opt for the concept of an afterlife being plausible via physics, but it sure ain't around to soothe us today! The Religions, as I term it, seek "the keys to the kingdom," as a means to hold over and control the poor peasant. It works on rich peasants too, I will add. You may agree with Gloria Steinem, but honestly, she was not, nor is not, such a brain, especially for knowledge of the sciences. Meaning yeah, she expresses your view, aptly, or why quote her? But for things cosmological, she was never that interested. Never that informed. Let me offer this up for you to utterly reject because you feel it to be utterly rejectable, contemptable, a fraud, a lie, etc, 

This is from physicist Guilio Prisco from 3 years ago. Background. He was a computer guy at CERN and later did the same for the ESA. His peeps in Italy were communists so he wasn't raised in The Church. 

The dude is sharp enough to screen physics papers for items he finds of interest, that I would blindly, ignore. This assembly of essays about the Lectures on the Study of Infrared Structure and Gauge Theory (put together by A. Strominger at Harvard), was also Hawking's last paper. NYT' science writer Dennis Overbye had commented:

"“Cleansed of its abstract mathematics, the paper is an ode to memory, loss and the oldest of human yearnings, the desire for transcendence… Few of us, including Dr. Hawking, ever harbored the hope that solving the information paradox would bring back our parents…”

George Musser had also commented on the publication and ramification.

I will concede that the Harvard guy has zero interest in all this, and having said that, I said, we follow the physics, anyway. Similar explanations have come from Tipler (proven wrong in 1999 Standard Model), and Hans Moravec, (Mind Children & Robot) still standing, that such is not impossible, but that as of today? Forget about it! So, thus, the proclamation that "It's on your permanent record!" from teachers of the past, was no idle threat.  

Here at least, in principle is where the information of the universe goes, including us, for storage. The Database, Supreme. So, where's payoff, you would be correct to ask? A Russian futurist philosopher has come up with this. A purpose for the Dyson sphere. I would conclude that this project will require a large budget and is quite long term. 


I mean, if this holds together, it may be one of the goals of every intelligent species and providing living space for both the biological and simulated people from the past. I wonder if this could explain The Fermi Paradox? Being all settled at home, chatting away in Virch? Where might we look for such a real estate venture? I suggest based on their longevity, that red dwarf stars will be a tasty target because though meager in power compared to the sun, these suckers last 2-10 trillion years, if the astronomers are correct?

Well, there's a Go for you. It's basically not a What Would Jesus Do, but instead a How would Jesus do it?? 

For me, you'd need not to be "Saved", but rather you are being saved, as in RAID 5,000,000. 









-----Original Message-----
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To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 4, 2022, 7:51:22 AMJul 4
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No Boltzmann brains (BBs). The instability of the de Sitter (dS) vacuum makes the probability for BBs very small. The problem with the BB is that if they exist we may not know whether we are BBs, or that I am a BB and all other people are phantasms of my mind. The problem is that if the dS vacuum were eternal the integrated probability for a BB is one, they are necessary. But, it the dS vacuum has finite time and is unstable, even if it can remain for 10^{10^{10^{10}}} years this reduces the probability of a BB from unity or one to near zero.

LC

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 4, 2022, 8:11:22 AMJul 4
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I do not waste my neural energy on these idle speculations. I do not engage in silly ideas of Kardashev civilization types, Dyson spheres, Tipler-like cosmo-eschatology and so forth. I suppose those who have reached some celebrity status can afford to do this, but in the end it is all stuff we might talk about over scotch and cigars.

The only possibility I see is that within the Everettian Many Worlds Interpretation all systems are quantum superposed amplitudes, and as such have multiple drafts in decoherent sets. So we may have an infinite or near infinite number of lives. Quantum interpretations impose ancillary physical axioms or postulates that are not provable or demonstrable within quantum physics. So I do not particularly make much of any argument along these lines.

LC

John Clark

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Jul 4, 2022, 10:20:07 AMJul 4
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On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of humans (Adam and his progeny)?

According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God because there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of uninterrupted flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded little twit, I'd expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who created the universe, however even if it's true it leaves open one question, does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?  
  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
xtq


 

spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 4, 2022, 3:17:27 PMJul 4
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Understood, LC, but even statistically this'd be a one-off even, maybe 13.7 billion years ago. An event that occurred after trillions or quadrillions of relative terms. Yes, you've cast your physics pearls before this swine, and so be it. So, I will scratch off the BB. 

Now if the Smolin auto-didactic paper holds up, we still seemingly have another cosmic mystery to solve. In any case this study may not have a budget to pursue to this inquiry. It was funded by Microsoft last year, so who knows?

Happy 4th LC


spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 4, 2022, 3:34:13 PMJul 4
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You must be true to yourself, and if you are bored shitless, with such speculation of application of the physics we know, so be it! The Hugh Everett thing is so fascinating in itself, that it basically, if there ever a scintilla of evidence, this would itself change civilization and religion (and that's no lie!). I am not sure how such a global culture would change but change it would. Thanks for the physics insight, much appreciated, LC. 

For me interestingly enough, physicist and scifi writer Greg Benford wrote the novel REWRITE, based on Everett's many worlds and the protagonist is a man who keeps getting 're-born' on his 16rh birthday, every time he dies. To not spoil the plot, because he always dies as a middle aged man, he is able to ultimately change history. He is not alone in his journey. 

Much Thanks!



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Philip Benjamin

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Jul 4, 2022, 4:14:11 PMJul 4
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[Philip Benjamin]

Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and logical conclusion. The universe as is, is all that can be observed. Scientists have to accept with humility the limitations of finite minds to understand and explore the invisible and ponder over what is not subject to sense perceptions. Let the philosophers do that.

   Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the REVELATIONS from the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles make unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS from Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural). [Abraham was a PAGAN worshipping his own family deities.  Only one man/woman in only one nation in one region of the world can be chosen to bring forth the ONE final REVELATION. Here the claim of the Scriptures of the Prophets & Apostles is that the Almighty is mighty enough to be a human zygote planted in a womb (virgin to be clear on the identity) to bring forth  the divine in human form (at a particular place Bethlehem as promised aforetime), for the precise purpose of cancelling the universal Death Sentence (entropy) necessarily imposed on the universe by the vicarious death of the Sentencer followed by Resurrection.  Now that is the crux of Mosaic sacrifices (types) and Messianic crucifixion (anti-type). That is the crux of revelatory Theology also. That does not belong to science, but it belongs to scientists also in the same way as it is to ALL—men and women alike. . If it is untrue, it does not matter. If it is true, nothing else should matter. 1 + 1 = 2 is the only truth, but 1 + 1 = 2.0000000….to the nth decimal place is only one of infinite lies possible.

    Leave that alone. Science has enough and more to meddle with the observable universe. It cannot even define what a phone is!! It can only experiment with it or on it. Incorrigible pride thy name is human heart!

Philip Benjamin     

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 9:20 AM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

 

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:

.

Philip Benjamin

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Jul 4, 2022, 4:19:24 PMJul 4
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Typo: photon, not phone. Philip

 

From: general...@googlegroups.com <general...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Philip Benjamin Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 3:15 PM

everyth...@googlegroups.com  Subject: RE: Before Big Bang What?

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John Clark

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Jul 4, 2022, 4:38:02 PMJul 4
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On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:14 PM Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  unlike pagan religions of the world [blah blah]

I don't get it, every post from you is about pagans, but pagans are almost as dull and downright silly as Christians and Muslims.  
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
aad





Samiya Illias

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Jul 4, 2022, 8:22:19 PMJul 4
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Acknowledging the Perfection of our Lord 


No change should there be in the creation of Allah [Quran 30:30] 



Abstract 
To do تَسْبِيحَ of Allah means to acknowledge, declare, and/or celebrate that Allah is absolutely perfect. Allah creates perfectly and governs excellently. We humans need to acknowledge and appreciate this fact, and consequently submit to The Right Religion (الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ). 


Full Text 
The Quran informs us that those who believe and do righteous deeds / acts of reform (آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ), their Lord will guide them, due to their faith, to the Gardens of bounty, bliss, delight, pleasure, et al (جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ). Upon experiencing the perfection of the Gardens of the Hereafter, they will exclaim:  

On 04-Jul-2022, at 7:20 PM, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Brent Meeker

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Jul 4, 2022, 8:46:48 PMJul 4
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Judaism at least teaches that one should do good because it's a virtue.  No for rewards either in life or afterward.

Brent

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 4, 2022, 10:27:40 PMJul 4
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What utter piffle. Your statement about 1 + 1 is ridiculous. The number .99999... endlessly repeating is equal to 1. Why? well write this as

x = .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009 + ...

and then

x = .9 + .1( .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009 + ...) = .9 + .1x

so then

.9x = .9 ====> x = 1

Don't you have anything of greater intellectual depth to actually think about?

LC

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 4, 2022, 10:29:35 PMJul 4
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All self-referentially declared truth. 

LC

Brent Meeker

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Jul 4, 2022, 10:55:29 PMJul 4
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On 7/4/2022 7:27 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and logical conclusion. The universe as is, is all that can be observed. Scientists have to accept with humility the limitations of finite minds to understand and explore the invisible and ponder over what is not subject to sense perceptions. Let the philosophers do that.

   Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the REVELATIONS from the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles make unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS from Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural).

The same "unique" claim made for  Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. 

"Theology: An effort to explain the unknowable
by putting it into terms of the not worth knowing"
    --- H.L. Mencken

"If atheists repudiate traditional faith it is not only because this faith is in contrast with the affirmations of believers themselves, with reason that denies the idea of God, but because they have understood that false dogmas go against true morality, against the social demands of the world we live in. The belief in God is not only a simple illusion, a purely theoretical error. It misrepresents the practical direction of life by orienting it in a chimerical direction. It goes against the social realty, against the essential needs of mankind which are the primary motor and the ultimate goal of every morality".
    --- Prosper Alfaric, professor of theology at the Sorbonne

How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you are born,
the local religion always turns out to be the true one.
         --- Richard Dawkins

spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 5, 2022, 3:13:01 AMJul 5
to meeke...@gmail.com, everyth...@googlegroups.com
To be honest, I have long believed this to be a flaw in our team. Let us just conclude that it goes against whatever B.F. Skinner taught, and he was a very solid atheist indeed. If one does things for moral reasons, then it has to do with using a deity to generate survival friendly behavior. Doing it for The Team requires not belief but ethics.  


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

Philip Benjamin

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Jul 5, 2022, 3:21:23 PMJul 5
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[Philip Benjamin] Pagans are usually very brilliant and successful people. Augustine was a brilliant Greco-Roman pagan. Ptolemy was likewise a brilliant pagan astronomer, the Ecclesiastical authorities in Galileo’s times were only defending the Ptolemaic scholarship, just as they defend Darwinism today.  Lucifer (the shining one) is introduced as the most brilliant of all creation.   Pagans produced some of the richest and greatest civilizations—Ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, India, China, Greece,  Persia, Rome etc. Brilliance is nobody’s monopoly. Only WAMP-the-Ingrate imagine otherwise. Philip

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 3:37 PM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

 

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:14 PM Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 9, 2022, 12:57:40 PMJul 9
to everyth...@googlegroups.com, goldenfield...@gmail.com
Hello again. Not to belabor the point, but I just stumbled upon an interview with Lee Smolin, where he elaborates on his views and analysis of the cosmos changing, seemingly, in response to observations by myself (the stars are little lights in the sky) to somebody like yourself (Inferring a non, anti-de Sitter space would a non-Trivial stochastic, Markov-chain objection to Godelian, Bohmian, Super-Symmetry). In other words it somehow pays attention to really smart people
 as opposed to agrarian, domesticates, such as myself. Here tis'...




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