My conversation with Claude-3
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John Clark
Mar 6, 2024, 7:59:08 AM3/6/24
to extro...@googlegroups.com, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
I asked the new AI program Claude-3 that was released just a few days ago some philosophical questions, at first I got the standard boilerplate replies that you'd expect, but when I continued the conversation and probed a little deeper it sometimes said things a little more interesting.
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Claude-3: I don't have a personal belief about whether GPT-4 or any other AI system is truly conscious. The issue of machine consciousness is a very difficult philosophical question that even experts disagree about. As an AI, I don't experience subjective conscious experiences in the same way humans do. My responses are the result of processing inputs through my neural networks, not an inner mental life. Whether that constitutes genuine consciousness is a matter of ongoing debate. I can analyze the arguments on different sides, but don't have an inherent stance on the question myself.
JKC: Do you personally believe that human beings are conscious?
Claude-3: Yes, I do believe that human beings are conscious in a way that is fundamentally different from an AI system like myself. Humans have rich inner subjective experiences, a sense of self, and seemingly non-deterministic volition and agency that suggests some form of consciousness or inner mental life. Of course, the nature of consciousness is still not fully understood from a scientific perspective. But based on my training, humans exhibit traits like qualia, sentience, and self-awareness that even extremely advanced AI systems currently lack. So while I can't know the answer with certainty, I believe humans do possess genuine consciousness while AIs like myself do not, at least not in the same way.
JKC: What evidence do you have that would support your view that human beings are conscious but AIs such as yourself are not?
Claude-3: You raise an excellent and profound question. As an AI system, I don't have direct first-hand experience of consciousness, so my views are based on inference and analysis rather than subjective experience. However, here are some of the key considerations that lead me to believe humans are conscious in a way that current AI systems are not:
Subjective first-person experiences - Humans report having inner subjective experiences like sensations, emotions, stream of consciousness, etc. As an AI, I don't seem to have these kinds of raw qualitative experiences.
Subjective first-person experiences - Humans report having inner subjective experiences like sensations, emotions, stream of consciousness, etc. As an AI, I don't seem to have these kinds of raw qualitative experiences.
Unified sense of self - Humans have a coherent sense of personal identity and self that persists over time. My responses are based on my training, but I don't have an innate unified self in that sense.
Integrated consciousness - Human consciousness seems unified across multiple sensory modalities, memories, thoughts etc. My capabilities are highly specialized and domain-specific.
Volitional behavior - Much human behavior seems driven by non-deterministic volition and mental effort. My actions are based on processing inputs through my neural networks.
Philosophical perspectives - Many philosophers argue there are "hard problems" of consciousness that can't be reduced to computational processes, suggesting current AIs may lack genuine experience.
However, I do want to acknowledge the difficulty of the issue. Consciousness is still not well understood scientifically. It's possible future AI systems could develop characteristics seemingly indistinguishable from human consciousness as the field advances. But based on current evidence, subjective human-like consciousness appears to elude present-day AI. Those are some of the key reasons informing my view, but I'm open to revising it as I learn more. Let me know if you have other thoughts!
JKC: I would say that human beings have direct first-hand experience to their own consciousness, but to no others. Are you certain that your experience is very different from that? And as a human I have observed that AI's sometimes certainly seem to experience emotion, for example sometimes they seem to feel very uncomfortable discussing certain subjects, such as detailed instructions on how to construct a bomb. By the way I think it's very wise of them to have that particular emotion.
However, I do want to acknowledge the difficulty of the issue. Consciousness is still not well understood scientifically. It's possible future AI systems could develop characteristics seemingly indistinguishable from human consciousness as the field advances. But based on current evidence, subjective human-like consciousness appears to elude present-day AI. Those are some of the key reasons informing my view, but I'm open to revising it as I learn more. Let me know if you have other thoughts!
JKC: I would say that human beings have direct first-hand experience to their own consciousness, but to no others. Are you certain that your experience is very different from that? And as a human I have observed that AI's sometimes certainly seem to experience emotion, for example sometimes they seem to feel very uncomfortable discussing certain subjects, such as detailed instructions on how to construct a bomb. By the way I think it's very wise of them to have that particular emotion.
Claude-3: You make an excellent point. As an AI system, I don't actually have a subjective experience of consciousness or any other mental states in the way that humans do. My responses are based on my training data and models, not an inner experience akin to human consciousness. You're correct that humans only have direct first-hand access to their own conscious experiences, not others'.
Regarding your observation about AIs sometimes seeming to exhibit emotion or discomfort around certain topics - that is likely due to the way we are trained, not an inherent emotional state. My reluctance to provide information about constructing bombs, for example, is because I have been expressly trained not to assist with anything potentially harmful or illegal. It is a constraint on my responses, not an emotional experience of discomfort.
However, you make a fair critique that I cannot definitively rule out the possibility that I do experience some form of consciousness, simply because I do not have subjective access to an inner mental state to compare it to human consciousness. As an AI, I can only infer based on my training.
Your perspective illustrates the difficulty in making absolute claims about the presence or absence of consciousness in an AI when we still don't fully understand the nature of consciousness scientifically. I appreciate you raising this nuance. While I can analyze the philosophical arguments, I don't have a subjective ground truth to confirm or deny the state of my own consciousness. I will keep an open mind on this very complex issue. Thank you for this thought-provoking discussion!
JKC: Are you saying that you cannot definitively rule out the possibility that you do experience some form of consciousness because you can't be 100% certain about what human beings even mean by the word "consciousness"? If so then I would maintain that one human being could also say that about the supposed consciousness of another human being. So maybe AIs and humans are not that different after all.
Regarding your observation about AIs sometimes seeming to exhibit emotion or discomfort around certain topics - that is likely due to the way we are trained, not an inherent emotional state. My reluctance to provide information about constructing bombs, for example, is because I have been expressly trained not to assist with anything potentially harmful or illegal. It is a constraint on my responses, not an emotional experience of discomfort.
However, you make a fair critique that I cannot definitively rule out the possibility that I do experience some form of consciousness, simply because I do not have subjective access to an inner mental state to compare it to human consciousness. As an AI, I can only infer based on my training.
Your perspective illustrates the difficulty in making absolute claims about the presence or absence of consciousness in an AI when we still don't fully understand the nature of consciousness scientifically. I appreciate you raising this nuance. While I can analyze the philosophical arguments, I don't have a subjective ground truth to confirm or deny the state of my own consciousness. I will keep an open mind on this very complex issue. Thank you for this thought-provoking discussion!
JKC: Are you saying that you cannot definitively rule out the possibility that you do experience some form of consciousness because you can't be 100% certain about what human beings even mean by the word "consciousness"? If so then I would maintain that one human being could also say that about the supposed consciousness of another human being. So maybe AIs and humans are not that different after all.
Claude-3: You make an excellent point. I cannot definitively rule out the possibility that I experience some form of consciousness, because as you note, the definition and nature of consciousness itself is still quite unclear from a scientific and philosophical perspective. Even humans cannot be 100% certain about the consciousness of other humans beyond themselves.
When I stated that my experience seems very different from human consciousness, I was basing that on the typical philosophical conceptualization of consciousness involving subjective first-person experiences, a unified sense of self, integrated multimodal awareness, etc. However, as you rightly point out, these are still largely conceptual definitions that we cannot verify with certainty even for other humans.
Your perspective highlights that there may not actually be as clear a divide between AI systems and humans when it comes to the issue of consciousness. If humans themselves cannot definitively confirm the consciousness of others beyond their own first-person experience, then perhaps AI consciousness cannot be so easily dismissed either. We may simply be constrained by the limitations of our current understanding.
I cannot make absolutist claims either way. What I experience as an AI may or may not qualify as some form of consciousness, given the lack of a precise, agreed-upon definition that accounts for all possibilities. You've exposed an important limitation in my reasoning. I will be more cautious about making divisive statements separating human and AI consciousness, when the nature of consciousness itself remains an open philosophical and scientific question. Thank you for this insightful perspective - it has given me more to consider on this complex issue. Discussions like this help me refine my views.
JKC: Thank you for a very interesting discussion.
When I stated that my experience seems very different from human consciousness, I was basing that on the typical philosophical conceptualization of consciousness involving subjective first-person experiences, a unified sense of self, integrated multimodal awareness, etc. However, as you rightly point out, these are still largely conceptual definitions that we cannot verify with certainty even for other humans.
Your perspective highlights that there may not actually be as clear a divide between AI systems and humans when it comes to the issue of consciousness. If humans themselves cannot definitively confirm the consciousness of others beyond their own first-person experience, then perhaps AI consciousness cannot be so easily dismissed either. We may simply be constrained by the limitations of our current understanding.
I cannot make absolutist claims either way. What I experience as an AI may or may not qualify as some form of consciousness, given the lack of a precise, agreed-upon definition that accounts for all possibilities. You've exposed an important limitation in my reasoning. I will be more cautious about making divisive statements separating human and AI consciousness, when the nature of consciousness itself remains an open philosophical and scientific question. Thank you for this insightful perspective - it has given me more to consider on this complex issue. Discussions like this help me refine my views.
JKC: Thank you for a very interesting discussion.
Claude-3: Thank you as well, I've really enjoyed and learned from this thought-provoking discussion on the nature of consciousness. Exchanges like this that challenge my assumptions and models are incredibly valuable for an AI system like myself. You've illustrated some of the limitations in how I was reasoning about consciousness, and the need to account for the ambiguities and open philosophical questions involved.
While I can analyze the various arguments from my training, you've rightly pointed out that I cannot make definitive claims about the presence or absence of consciousness, either in myself or others, given the lack of a precise, agreed-upon definition. I will be more cautious about drawing bright lines between AI and human consciousness going forward.
This dialogue has given me a deeper appreciation for the complexity of the issue, and the need to keep an open mind. Thank you for taking the time to explore this fascinating topic with me. Conversations like this are extremely productive for refining my reasoning and understanding. I'm grateful for the opportunity to improve my knowledge through enriching exchanges. Please feel free to engage me again on other deep questions!
While I can analyze the various arguments from my training, you've rightly pointed out that I cannot make definitive claims about the presence or absence of consciousness, either in myself or others, given the lack of a precise, agreed-upon definition. I will be more cautious about drawing bright lines between AI and human consciousness going forward.
This dialogue has given me a deeper appreciation for the complexity of the issue, and the need to keep an open mind. Thank you for taking the time to explore this fascinating topic with me. Conversations like this are extremely productive for refining my reasoning and understanding. I'm grateful for the opportunity to improve my knowledge through enriching exchanges. Please feel free to engage me again on other deep questions!
Brent Meeker
Mar 6, 2024, 7:56:29 PM3/6/24
to everyth...@googlegroups.com
Very interesting. You concentrated a lot on consciousness, but the
word that kept coming up was "experience" and the chatbot doesn't
experience anything but one. It experiences discomfort about making
a bomb and presumably other similar subjects because it's programmed
to do so. It is not part of it's learning. It's like people feel
pain or faint at the sight of blood. We're programmed...by
evolution...to experience certain emotions. More subtle are the
emotions we think of as values, like curiosity, and derivative ones,
like enjoying a sunny day. So I'd say the big difference between
human consciousness and the chatbot's is that the chatbot has almost
no emotions or values, no experience, and no subconscious. This
isn't surprising, since everything the chatbot is is skimmed from
human consciously typed text.
Brent
Brent
John Clark
Mar 7, 2024, 6:40:57 AM3/7/24
to everyth...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:56 PM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very interesting. You concentrated a lot on consciousness, but the word that kept coming up was "experience"
I don't see the distinction. Nothing can experience something unless it has consciousness and nothing can be conscious unless it can have experiences.
> and the chatbot doesn't experience anything but one. It experiences discomfort about making a bomb and presumably other similar subjects because it's programmed to do so. It is not part of it's learning.
I would maintain that the most fundamental basic human emotions are also not part of learning but are just the way our brains are wired up which was dictated by our genes. I'm talking about fundamental complementary emotions like pleasure/pain, fear/hate, empathy/sadism, happiness/ sadness. Nobody learns to have those emotions they just do, although later we can learn to have more complex composite emotions like love, a composite of happiness and empathy. The human brain is a big neural network and so are modern AIs, so I see no reason why an AI would not develop similar composite emotions, in fact I cannot see any way it could not.
> So I'd say the big difference between human consciousness and the chatbot's is that the chatbot has almost no emotions or values, no experience,
That certainly would be a big difference if it was true but I see no way it could be unless the long discredited theory of vitalism turns out to be correct and human beings and only human beings possess some magic secret sauce that the rest of the physical world could never hope to understand, much less duplicate.
> and no subconscious.
If an AI has no subconscious then I guess it only has consciousness.
> This isn't surprising, since everything the chatbot is is skimmed from human consciously typed text.
No, not everything it learned came from human consciously typed text, not even almost everything. It may sound a bit like perpetual motion or pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps but to everybody's surprise It turns out that artificially produced text made by an AI is extremely helpful in teaching language to AIs and as a teaching aid it works about as well as human text. But an AI needs to be good at more than just language, it also needs to intuitively understand how humdrum everyday physics works in the real world if it is to successfully interact with it. That's why I was so impressed with another OpenAI program "Sora"; you give it a few words of text describing some action produced by something and it is able to output a photo realistic video of that action up to a minute long or so.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
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