Re: there is no ultimate essence

[spudb...@aol.com]

So, if there is no computational or physical back drop to the vacuum or false  vacuum, then what of the effects of Virtual Particle observations? I am looking at an article astronomer article by Ethan Siegel, indicating the reality of virtual particles. The have to initiate from somewhere, correct?

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On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 Tomas Pales <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 1:00:34 PM UTC+2 telmo wrote:

I haven't read "Physics for the Feeble-Minded" (yet?), but something caught my attention in the review below:

https://theamericanscholar.org/physics-for-the-feeble-minded/

"Rovelli’s short answer to this and other bizarre takes on quantum weirdness: Nonsense! His real purpose is to posit his own theory of “relations.” He suggests that most, if not all, of quantum theory’s perplexities can be resolved by understanding that there is no ultimate essence, no Kantian Ding an sich, no existence in and of itself attributable to a particle. What we know, since we too are part of nature, is only how something manifests itself to us. It is only in relation to something else that anything can be known—and a thing can manifest itself differently to different things."

Maybe Rovelli is ready for Marchal :)

Cheers

Telmo

Those relations are between nothings?

 

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[Tomas Pales]

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 4:23:08 AM UTC+2 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

virtual particles. The have to initiate from somewhere, correct?

Ultimately, no. They exist eternally, just like everything else.

[John Clark]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:23 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> So, if there is no computational or physical back drop to the vacuum or false  vacuum, then what of the effects of Virtual Particle observations? I am looking at an article astronomer article by Ethan Siegel, indicating the reality of virtual particles. The have to initiate from somewhere, correct?

No, according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle you can sneak in under the radar of the law of conservation of mass/energy and create stuff from nothing, but only for a very short amount of time, and the larger the amount of mass/energy there is the shorter the amount of time you are allowed to violate that law. So virtual photons can pop into existence from nowhere, they can't be detected directly but they do produce changes in things that we can detect, such as in the detailed examination of the spectral lines of hydrogen, an even better example is the Casimir effect.

If you place two flat uncharged mirrors close together then there can NOT be virtual photons of every wavelength in the vacuum between the mirrors as there are outside, only a wavelength equal to the distance between mirrors are allowed, or half that wavelength, or a third or a fourth etc (it's the same reason a organ pipe will not make any sound but only sounds that resonate inside the pipe). But outside of the mirrors there is no such restriction and the virtual photons can be of any wavelength. Thus there are more virtual particles in the vacuum outside the mirrors pushing them together than there are between the mirrors pushing them apart. So the mirrors will attract each other.

This attractive force was predicted to exist in 1948 but it wasn't until 1997 that it was confirmed in the lab to actually exist with just the strength Casimir said it would have. If the Vacuum outside the mirror has zero energy then the space between the mirrors must contain negative energy.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

gop

[Lawrence Crowell]

Virtual particles are not real. In fact off-shell particles or their mass-energies are just dummy variables of integration in the computation of Feynman diagrams. In the BCFW formalism off-shell condition can be dispensed with entirely. These integration variables are in effect removed and they signify massive gauge redundancies.

LC

[spudb...@aol.com]

Spacetime cooks along however we describe it, from my reading of several articles the essence seems that QFT = the essence. Beyond the testing of the last 30 years is the true vacuum being overlaid by the "false vacuum" constitutes, at least, the Hubble Volume. In this way the true vacuum is (drumroll) the essence of foundation of reality. Maria Filipova had this nice (related) article earlier thus year-

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/faculty-of-natural-sciences/department-of-physics/MariaFilippova.pdf

One advantage of the false vacuum being foundational is that the true vacuum may not have a single pizza in it, or if it does contain the pie(s) they may all be virtual. However, if we were virtual ourselves, then the pizza would satisfy and therefore any complaints would arise from only true vacuum observers. The true vacuum complainers may simply be thermodynamically fluctuated boltzmann brains and we should ignore them unless they're buying our pies for us? 

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[spudb...@aol.com]

After reading some physics articles, I took them to mean that aspects of quantum fields exist eternally. These physicists were pretty clear of the impermanence of particles. Impermanence is a relative thing of course.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tomas Pales <litew...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2021 8:52 am
Subject: Re: there is no ultimate essence

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 4:23:08 AM UTC+2 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

virtual particles. The have to initiate from somewhere, correct?

Ultimately, no. They exist eternally, just like everything else.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

The ontological status of the vacuum is a separate issue. Virtual particles or their energy-momenta are just dummy variables of summation or integration. There is nothing to really suggest these are real.

LC