Online Duscuaaion 1: Irfan Habib Historian Interview and Caste Politics and Ashoka in Bihar

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Dilip Barad

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Sep 14, 2015, 12:40:48 AM9/14/15
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All students,
Two articles are shared for online discussion .
1) Interview of Historian Irfan Habib
2) Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar.

History is similar to memory. As in case of individual Memory of past (memory is alwaya about past) helps in organizing present and future. Similarly,  History helps in organising present and future of National / Society.
History is recalled, rewritten ans reinterpreted, time and again. All rereading or appropriation of historical figures/facts gives us understanding about the power and it's relation with History. (HISTORY IS ALWAYS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS. The defeated are always disparaged in history).

You are invited to share your views / opinions of  the two writeups.  What do you think about the views expressed? Do you agree or disagree with the views? Why? What's your logic?

Share in reply to this email.
Remember: please do not change subject line. Just click reply, copy paste your answer and send.

The discussion  is open for one week - 14 to 21 September 2015.

Dilip Barad, Ph.D.
Prof & Head, Dept. of English
M.K. Bhavnagar University
Gujarat - India
9898272313 / 9427733691
(Excuse typos -Sent from smart phone SN2)

Irfan Habib Historian Interview.pdf
Caste politics King Ashok a n Bihar_15(1).pdf

Dilip Barad

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Sep 14, 2015, 6:58:55 AM9/14/15
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vaidehi Hariyani

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Sep 18, 2015, 12:00:40 PM9/18/15
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My opinion regarding the first article by Iran Habib is as follow:-
       We have never been to the history. The facts have been recorded . How can we say that a person is good or bad? The perception changes from person to person. I don't think any group or party should be blamed.
        At some point I agree with the writer regarding the banning of meat. All the religion have their own fasting season. Considering some religion and banning the meat is a biased thought. If we look through religious point of view, then meat should be banned forever because through out 365 days all religion has some or the other special day . Rationaly thinking it would be impossible to provide food grains to all the people.

My opinion about the second article " Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar":-
        Years ago  Britishers ruled over India using the policy "Divide and Rule". I think the politicians now a days are using the same rule. In modern times we can call it "castism". They use people for their advantage . The politicians play a dirty game by involving the names of the great people just to get votes. They make people fight by making use of the caste. For example - the recent OBC movement in Gujarat by the Patidar samaj. Some of them are using name of Sardar Patel . I don't think Sardar Patel talked about his caste only, he thought and served India as a whole nation.
   Thank you

Sonal Baraiya

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Sep 18, 2015, 12:00:40 PM9/18/15
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Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar

-        Nalim Mehta.


   Every country has some basic problems that are even today we cannot able to remove.


   For example –

Europe - race problem,

America - class problem and

India have problem with cast.


   But the thing is that how someone becomes selfish and uses it for their own sake. Politician use this for their profit. They want to make their own sits that’s why they always in search of problematic topic. The problematic topic in India is cast system. So when time came they used it as a tool and got votes in their pocket. For example – few years before they propagates the news of the statue of Sardar Patel to please particular cast. Behind that they have big inception but common people cannot understand. And blindly follow them without any questioning. But the important thing is that they are not for anyone rather for their sits only. Maybe now the topic is changed. It is diverted Sardar Patel to King Ashoka. But the things remain same.

 

Attempts on to destroy Indian history – but history’s not mythology or theology

 

   Irfan Habib debated Indian History with Eram Agha. Some people for their own sake they try to destroy the history. They try to remove Muslim name and wants to give Hindu name. Behind this there is power politics. But what he said is that the history cannot remove. History is the pillar through which the entire country stands. It is not mythology or theology but it is fact. That’s why no one should play with history. History provokes no conflict. It simply records what happens. But it is man who takes it or read it in false way. The conflict is the fruit of human mind which is came out through false reading of history.

     So, he said that it is justifies barbarous acts of human being. He also said that accurate history serves the nation in the same manner as accurate memory serves the individual.

                                                                                Thank you...

dodiya meghana

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Sep 18, 2015, 12:00:45 PM9/18/15
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1) Attempts on to destroy Indian history but history's not mythology or theology.
         Irfan Habib & other historians have not existing justice with genuine history of the nation.   
        I agree with IRFAN HABiB that Govt.must only visit the past but also take step that history is not repeated.

Monali Jethwa

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Sep 20, 2015, 4:14:04 AM9/20/15
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Nilam mheta  take this interview about the basic peoblem of all coutery.specially  in india the main problem of the cast .
in india all are the politics are selffish and all selffish for his sits.Irfan Habib dadicate to indian history he was attemt to distory indian history but he was proved historys not mythology or theoiogy so he said justify the act of human being
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

1) Attempts on to destroy Indian history but history's not my thology or theology.

Brijal Oza

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Sep 20, 2015, 4:14:04 AM9/20/15
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My opinion about the second artical-Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar.
India always suffer from the "Castism" from the Auranzeb's era and now it is big issue in our india regarding cast. Now-a-days, people are fighting with each other for the cast and make a big issue in the country, they never thought that that is not their own problem. Recently, we can see in Gujarat about the OBC movement by "Patidar Samaj", and therefore may be the other people are also doing such kind of things by following the Patidar Samaj. According to me, if people want to change the  India , then they have to be change their mind regarding the "CAST" or "Castism".  
My opinion regarding first artical of Iran Habib:
Yes, history is not mythology or theology, but it is fact. Some people are destory the history for their own self reason , they never thoght that the history is the pillar of the whole country and therefore by the history of the country people remain the story if they do not destroy the history of that country.people should secure the Indian history by their own undersatnding that" this is my country and I must have save this hostory for the country and for the new generation."

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Zarna Bhatti

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Sep 20, 2015, 4:14:04 AM9/20/15
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My opinion about the second artical casting Ashoka in Bihar
 Before the independence and after the independence, the problem of cast remain as it is. But the thing is that how politician used it for their own sake. For their own profit. Politician raise problems and then used it in their voting system to get seats. In modern time we can say that "castism"and the leaders used people for their advantage. In this time now they make people fight by making use of the caste.


On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dilip Barad

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Sep 20, 2015, 4:18:44 AM9/20/15
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Brijal Oza,
Do you mean to say that before Aurangzeb, there was not caste system in India? Or during his rule caste discrimination aggravated more?

dipti vaghela

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Sep 20, 2015, 10:36:27 PM9/20/15
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As we know that history is only the discription of past, it means description of events. From those events and experiences we learn for our present. So, if we criticise it so its our point of view. History not criticise but it is just event. So according to Irfan don't try to destroy history. Because history not speak single word but we speak about it or criticise it.

     In our India we can see there are many castes, while in wrstern country there are different classes. So we can say that these type of problem we can see everywhere. But now a days politics played a vital roll in this thing. For ex, patidar samaj make ' Saradar Patel' as ideal person from their caste. And new topic regarding Ashoka, is that he belonged to Kushwaha. And in history son of Rama or Sita- Kush, who belonged to this caste. So it means that Ashoka is also belonged to this caste. And behind these all things politics played a vital role.

Deepika Vaja

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Sep 20, 2015, 10:36:27 PM9/20/15
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Respected sir,
     According to my interpretation regarding in  first article, we speak about history, first of all we know that history. Why history remembers in present time? It is never forgot that becoz it is not always good or bad? It is remain  pass. History create problems but here in this interview Habib debated that our politician destroy history. But history is pillar of society. It is leave in pass and memories of past. First of all who wrote history? Why? Why he     said that? Why we not question about at that time, they  wrote history? Its all about doubted never solutions. History provoke no conflict. Its connected to mythical story and theology. It is true or false also. We remembered that what happened in history? Why they do this kind of think? It is never solution but we say that its all about selfishness  and personal interest. Proposal of Nehru museum, Islamic jihad and religious,  Meat ban Mughal emperors Akbar, Renaming of Aurangzeb road, American military innervation of syria have history, that's why rethinking of history and taught  true think not wrong  way. Becoz history is always bitter.
I gives example that Nehru connection of Subhashchandra Bose death and issues of his letter not gives in Nehru time. Its all about problematic. Why Nehru do that? So i told that history always remember and rethink. What  happens in past? It is individual and became problematical. Its play vital role and never forgot that recalling of history.

In second article in my interpretation that not only india in caste system. But goes on happening in different  way caste there like racism and classism in world. This problems never remove. At that time pass away and not only in India ancient time Raja and maharaja leave and believed in caste system. They strictly  followed that. Ashoka as a caste leader is a part of these ground level machinations ( Nalim mehta). This kind of think in present time our politics and leader have been do that. Our politician  do that only for votes and they forgot that and only use to casteism, favorism  of particular caste. So we say that  its not good governance but its self interest. Modi and Nitish kumar known  that caste and how they use people do this and only for political  thought.

So we say that history is bitter and problematic but we remember rise history. Its become true or wrong also. I think that recalling and rethink of past and learn history. And we taught that history issues not happenings in present time.

Dave Nimesh

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Sep 21, 2015, 12:37:29 PM9/21/15
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Respected sir,

My views regarding caste politics and Ashoka is as follow.

 First question is why politicians are remembering Ashoka  now?? Simply because of  elections. They actually have nothing to do with people or with history. They are only in vote banks.  We have discussed in the introduction   of the Modernist Literature by A.C. Ward that how susceptible untutored mind   (youth) were used by Hitler in war.  This kind of people are easily emotionally fooled by people. And caste is a factor which is medium to fool emotionally people. So politicians connects caste of great once with people so they feel bondage towards them and give vote on the name of great politicians.

History and power are closely connected. In Michel Foucalut’s word Power generates meaning about those who lacks power. And all the examples discussed in this articles are fine examples of this. Concept of naming is not innocent. Power operates behind this. There is hidden political agenda behind naming or banning the things. Things are same, whatever name we give to them. From structuralist point of view meanings are conventional, relational, arbitrary and applied. Even if we change name it doesn’t make any difference to that place. But it always happens that those who comes into power they changes name of cities, roads or places which is not innocent.

It is also true that history is written by winners. IT IS IMPORTANT TO JUSTIFY YOUR SELF. And winners easily do that. All great heroes were murderers but they were able to justify them selves. So the same case is in the history, that one is always hero in his own story. And sometimes history is also written by paying money. So there is conflict and definitely it will go on…..   

 

 

 

 

 

milan parmar

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Sep 21, 2015, 9:46:32 PM9/21/15
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I agree with your point that “histories are written by winners” but I
would like to add one more thing that it goes on changing with time.
First of all the question arise in mind that why one is interested in
writing the new thing by diverting or excluding the existing one? Why
they are trying to destroy the history ? Nothing is done without
interests and personal motives. The question or sometimes questioner
himself may be threatening by power. Our present India is ruling by
bjp govt and the govt is ruled by RSS who thinks only Hindus are
Indian what about others are they not Indian?
It is known by all that because of some group of fanatic Hindu and
others trying to establish Hinduism in india and that is not easy, how
can you do it ? simple by removing the existing one.. the same way
they had adopted that we can see by removing such personality and
giving more importance to the one who is unknown till yesterday. The
good example is the changing of the name of the road which was until
yesterday known as Aurangzeb Road but now it is and it will be known
as Kalam Road, ohh how easy is to remove such chapter of his by simply
renaming, and humans has power to forget the things easily, in no time
people will forget that there was such emperor like Aurangzeb, but
why renaming ? just to please some group of people ? to remain in the
power ? or because they hated him because they could not bear/accept
his greatness anymore?
The second controversy regarding Ashoka, is going on in Bihar as the
elections are near, and there will be celebration of the completing
2300 years of king Ashoka in Bihar. Ashoka was belongs to Kushawah
Caste, they are more in numbers like we have Patel community in
Gujarat, by the way BJP is searching for CM candidate and I think it
will be from Kushawah Caste, because they are claiming Ashoka from
that particular caste. With simple logic of mind anybody can realize
that they/ politicians are using them for their own vote banks.. but
susceptible people will not realize it until they had it
>>> *Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar*
>>>
>>> - Nalim Mehta.
>>>
>>>
>>> Every country has some basic problems that are even today we cannot
>>> able to remove.
>>>
>>>
>>> For example –
>>>
>>> Europe - race problem,
>>>
>>> America - class problem and
>>>
>>> India have problem with cast.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the thing is that how someone becomes selfish and uses it for
>>> their own sake. Politician use this for their profit. They want to make
>>> their own sits that’s why they always in search of problematic topic.
>>> The
>>> problematic topic in India is cast system. So when time came they used
>>> it
>>> as a tool and got votes in their pocket. For example – few years before
>>> they propagates the news of the statue of Sardar Patel to please
>>> particular
>>> cast. Behind that they have big inception but common people cannot
>>> understand. And blindly follow them without any questioning. But the
>>> important thing is that they are not for anyone rather for their sits
>>> only.
>>> Maybe now the topic is changed. It is diverted Sardar Patel to King
>>> Ashoka.
>>> But the things remain same.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Attempts on to destroy Indian history – but history’s not mythology or
>>> theology*

Hitaxi Dave

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Sep 22, 2015, 9:01:36 AM9/22/15
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1) My personal view on article by Irfan Habib Is as follow;

I totally agree with  Irfan habib point of view regarding history. Because History provokes no conflict. It simply records what happens. It must be distinguished from mythology as well as theology. Histories are written by humans, the authors twist history according to their leaning and feelings. We can see that people for their own sake they use history otherwise they don’t even remember it. History is milestone by watching it we can understand where we are and  it help us to compare our present time with ancient. It simply records what happened. One line that I like in this  article is accurate history serves the nation in the same manner as accurate memory serves the individual.

 

2) Second article on Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar by Nalim Mehta:

 Yes, as Nalim Mehata said in his article that an ancient emporer who died over 2300 year ago and ruled more than 2000 year ago. has no desire to remake caste formation even he never paid attention to his caste. But politicians who raise up this issue because of upcoming elections. And once he into power position they neglect people’s problem their suffering. I feel that there is some hidden politics behind it because they know that if they connect history or caste with our great one people can easily believe in it. The recent issue of castism in gujrat is ‘Patidar Andolan.” And here they connect  Sardar Patel for represent their caste. People of ‘Patidar Samaj’ don’t remember that role of Sardar Patel in integration Indian state. He also said, “We are all knit together by bonds of blood..  none can segregate us into segments.” And here I feel that Hardik Patel has no interest to close this chapter of reservation Because there is also politics behind this issue. Like Ashoka, Sardar Patel  never talked about his caste only.

 

Poojaba Gohil

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Sep 22, 2015, 9:01:36 AM9/22/15
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My views on the first article by Irfan Habib:
History always conducts some records or judgements,it always goes on with some particular changes or circumstances.we can not evaluate for that individually.it generally depends on probabal or sometimes necessarily situations.
Secondly,to give justice my point on the issue of meat,I would like to suggest read an article of 20th sep,2015`s Saurashtra Samachar.that is on it.(Aasambhav ni virudhdh).To be brief,i would like to give one example here:Man and Bear lived with each other.but one day bear ran away.Fox asked:Why you ran away!Bear answered innocently:Man is wity animal of the world.we can`t know or imagine what he will do!sometimes our intention is good but behaviour may ocward and that`s why our nearer or close one starts doubt on us.same thing in Maharashtra had also take place.by ban on meat we show our non violence.but the way we react was unnatural.if we really want to ban on that,we should not follow this for countable days,but it should be for forever.
My views on the second article:Casteing Ashoka in Bihar:
From centuries,people suppressed one or another way.before many years,it took place due to rulling system and now a days,it happens because of our politicians,that take benefit or profit from us.and just for a minor thing or getting class or reputation they do such intentionally deeds,this can be called casting of present time. 

dodiya meghana

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Sep 22, 2015, 2:28:39 PM9/22/15
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My personal view an article by Ashoka in Bihar.
        Ashoka was a great emperor and he ruled more than 2000 years ago.He never paid attention to his cast.He focused on becoming an emperor.The present political fighting is back biting and curiosity deceitful. India can face an implosion it the cast system not dismantled.The whole politics of cast system stinks.It should be abolished. It not disintegration can be fore casted.

Pritiba Gohil

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:09 AM9/25/15
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Respected Sir,


Attempts on to destroy Indian history – but history’s not mythology or theology :-


             As we referred history time and again for some basic knowledge about past that how peoples are lived in past but in that case we forget that history is merely a one part of thing which is written by winners not by losers.


           As we studied Pastness of past that people wants to play power politics that they wants to remembered something and they try to forget something.


          Irfan Habib also try to say something like this. we all know that Mahatma Gandhi is refereed a lot time and again because he studs for truth and non - violence. so we remembered him a lot other wise we forgotten him very earlier. But some people finds their interests in this. That's why he remembered a lot.


Casting Ashoka in Bihar :-


By   Nalim Mehta.

Cast system of India is like snack in grass. Because it is feeling point of every people of India who are uneducated and if government plays with this thing they know that they are in the benefits. Because in India blind peoples can do anything on the base of cast system. That's why very current issue of India is reservation policy.


Thank You ........



 a lot time and again because he stoods for truth and non - violenss. so we rememberd him a lot other wise we forgoted him very earlier. but some people finds their intrests in this. That's why he rememberd a lot.

Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar

By    Nalim Mehta.

CAst system of india is like snack in grass. Becuse it is feeling point of every people of india who are uneducated and if governmente plyes with thisthing they know that they are in the benifits. becuse in india blind peoples can do anything on the base of cast system. tht's why very current issue of india is reservation policy.

Thank You ....


Divya Choudhary

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:09 AM9/25/15
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My opinion about the second artical Casting Ashoka in Bihar.
India always suffer from the "Castism" now it is big issue in our India regarding cast.  In our India we can see there are many castes. we can say that these type of problem we can see everywhere. Ashoka was a great emperor and he ruled more than 2000 years ago. He never paid attention to his cast.He focused on becoming an emperor. In modern time we can say that "castism"and the leaders used people for their advantage. In this time now they make people fight by making use of the caste. As i already discussed in my blog post " RESERVATION POLICY "  that our government praises the evil or castism they give all profits to reserved people and the people who is really suitable for this profit is replaced by the people of reserved category. Person belonging from reserved category got benefits  in every sector whether it is education sector, job sector and any other sector they always got benefits because they got benefits from our government.

Vanita Baldaniya

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:09 AM9/25/15
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Respected sir

      Irfan Habib said that Samrata Ashoka is  born in lower cast,  what's true we don't know because we are not know that Ramayana is real story or true story or made a Valmiki's thinking story. So mythological we know that  when Sitamata going in wild  that time born of Lav and Kush.  But we don't know both are child of Rama or  one Lav  is Rama. So mythology said that Lav  Is Rama son and Kuch  is  son of other person.  So Samarata Ashoka is ''Vansh'' of Kuch  and so people believe that  Kuch Is lower cast so  Samrata Ashoka also lower cast person. So what is truth.

    And  now Tamil people said that Ashoka is great person and  he was born in Kuch  ''Vansh'' so politically use the Tamil people that  voting and other things are follow and give us promotion because we are all ''Vansh''  of Ashoka, so people are not they have brilliantly or intellectual  but people use this cast system through a. Famous people name with virtue I. Society them.

     It is not necessary for us because when time Rama'so don't know my son is properly my son or other son but only accept with Lav  so Samrata Ashoka is Smart in ''Ranmedan''  but it is not necessary for us that he was smart so his all person born in this cast is all smart. Because people are  know world in they have intellectual  not cast system and other also. So that is political partiality there in this Tamil politics.


        Thank you sir...

On Sep 14, 2015 10:10 AM, "Dilip Barad" <dilip...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Pritiba Gohil

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:09 AM9/25/15
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Nisha Dhiman

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:09 AM9/25/15
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Respected sir,
            1  History is a different and ancient point.History is pillar of society. It is leave in pass and memories of past.It must be distinguished from mythology as theology.

 The question or sometimes questioner himself may be threatening by power History create problems but here in this interview Habib debated that our politician destroy history. it always goes on with some particular changes or circumstances.


2 In our India we can see there are many cases, while in westerns country there are different classes. Cast system has problems never remove. Our politician  do that only for votes and they forgot that and only use to castes, favorism of particular caste once he into power position they neglect people’s problem their suffering. There is hidden political agenda behind naming or banning the things.








On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:22 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Urvi Dave

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:52 AM9/25/15
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Respected Sir,

Without proof, we cannot trust upon anything and likewise it is for history. We have not seen if just the facts are recorded. “Histories are written by winners” but it ts changed with time. History is the pillar of society. History is only description of events and we come to learn many things from it.

       In India, there is caste and in Western countries, there is Class. Problem is everywhere. When we were ruled by Britishers, they had used Divide and Rule policy and today, in the name of caste, politicians are using this policy. Few days back, there was a Patidar movement for reservation and they used Sardar Patel’s name in it but is there any proof that he talked about his caste? Instead we can say he talked about whole nation and not only about his own caste.

Thank you


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:22 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bina Gohil

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:52 AM9/25/15
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According to me history is just for remember the dates, and make sure that the mistake is not repeted which take polace in past time. Always be busy in history is not good thing . Its not let us move to our future.
About second article,
That "castism" is  remain burning issue for India form thousands of years. And put Samrat Ashoka in all this metter is show that how our politicians are selfcenred. They take advantege of innovsence people of India for thain post nad money.

Tadha Vanita

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:52 AM9/25/15
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Respected sit,

Everything is going on changing and therefore we cannot say that history is destroying, but we should also think that new history is creating. Names are replaced by religion it is a problem. In documentation and general knowledge I read What, is the old name of Ijipt or VadnagarIs there any reason for creating new name?  Meena Mehata said Instead of telling us truth, you have portrayed a distorted view of Islamic rule

Add I agree with her comment.

What history can make? Why we should remember history? History uses for documentation. History written by winner so obliviously they write good about themselves. Politicians are searching a way to condition the mind of people. Ashok had reign over large aria and therefore we should not use his power for one state. He was a great emperor of India but he had never focus on any particular caste. He believed in developing state. Bihar is already backward state in education so politicians know that nobody will raise the hand or question. History cannot destroyed, it often twisted. If the history is fact about Ashok and Chandragupta then what will make to new government? Not all generation are equal. Why given the name of Rama’s son Kush and Ashok? They are great in history so… or for the sake of their profit.

    Thank you...


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:22 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ranjan Velari

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:56:52 AM9/25/15
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Respected Sir,

Here are my views regarding both the points.

(1)  Article of Irfan Habib speaks about history. According to T.S. Eliot " the historical sense involves a perception,not only the pastness of the past, but also its presence." If we connect this idea with this article, we cannot say that history speaks about truth or facts, but if we understood the present some basic ideas of past are important. Though history is always written by the winners, but we can assume the circumstances of that time. Here is one thing about renaming the Aurangzeb Road,but why should they do that kinds of thing?  Here we can apply the theory of Miachel Foucault's idea of Power & Knowledge. Banning meat connected with religious emotions but we are individual and free human beings so one should not denied to whatever we want.

(2) Caste-ing Ahoka in Bihar: Celebration of 2300 years of Ashoka in Patna turned into a political advocacy event. Why suddenly some historical events come and political party or common people talking about these events? They remember Ashoka as a Kushwaha leader. Sometimes political leader used people as a puppet. Before election they try to give some advantages of society or development but when they win, many a times they can't handle the situations. This example of Ashoka is connected with this situation. Many people don't see that he or she is appropriate for vote or not. They are blindly followers and think that this person belongs to my caste let me vote this person. So in politics also caste played a vital role.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:22 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Monali Jethwa

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:57:58 AM9/25/15
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My opinion about the frist article Habib present the Indian history .He was said that people try to distroy history but i quetion  that why the people are remove the history?Otherwise history is the pioneer of present.he was said that in India now a days what's happened?people try to remove the Muslim name, they wants  to give Hindu name.But it is not true.Otherwise,if it is true so why are indian GOVT.gives name of road and building name even many place name of the muslim king and many famous name.in history many city name of other bt now day it is changed of city name Ex.Banglor-Bangluru,karnavati-Ahemdabad,Bombay-Mumbai,etc my point is hear the new genration it is to remove the history for us.so many time history is usefull for some why .
The second artical discussion about the "Cast-ing Ashoka in Bihar"by Nilam Metha.In the article emporer who died2300year ago and ruled more then 2000year ago. Every Country face the many problem but India have face the big problem of castecism .now a day in india all political party and all politician are selffish .They wants to have just own sits nothing else.few day ago India proves that very lowre cast system Ex.just 1month ago "patidar Samaj" other background cast people about arkshan . Its all my point of view.
                      
                                                                 THANK YOU.

Jayshree Solanki

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Sep 25, 2015, 11:57:58 AM9/25/15
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1)   Interview of Historian Irfan Habib

            Historian Irfan Habib Interview on topic History.

It is conflict between Human Memory and the individual thinking. Problem come out when we read history false way.

    Historian Irfan Habib is Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University. Habib discussed hotly debated Indian History.

 

He says discussion history provokes so many conflicts. It simply records what happens. It must be distinguished from mythology as well as theology .Accurate history serves the nation in the same manner as accurate memory serves the individual. It is not the purpose of history to glorify either Vedic times or early Islam- a false reading of history often justices’ barbarous acts.


2) caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar

                Cast- ism in India play vital role. Caste politics in India major issue in society.  

           How caste politics is being resurrected with dubious history before polls. A celebration of 2,300 years of Ashoka in Patna turned into a political advocacy event, with posters coming up across the city of a be jeweled and mustachioed Ashoka image, sitting side by side with Kushwaha caste

Leaders and BJP satraps.


A senior union cabiner minister from Bihar even announced a postal stamp to honour Ashoka and that a big statue of the emperor would be installed in Delhi and Patna if the party wanted to power.


                        Thank You........


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:22 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dhruvi chavda

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Sep 27, 2015, 8:54:10 AM9/27/15
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Respected sir,

Here are my views regarding both the points.



(1)  Article of Irfan Habib speaks about history.
Irfan Habib is Professor of Aligarh Muslim University. Habib discussed and debated Indian History. When we read the history false way the problem comes out that It is conflict between Human Memory and the individual thinking. He also said that history provokes so many conflicts. Though history is always written by the winners, but we can assume the circumstances of that time. Here is one thing about renaming the Aurangzeb Road,but why should they do that kinds of thing?  Here we can apply the theory of Foucault's idea of Power & Knowledge. Banning meat connected with religious emotions but we are individual and free human beings so one should not denied to whatever we want. 

2)  In second article in my interpretation that caste system is everywhere in India and we can not remove it.  Ashoka as a caste leader is a part of these ground level machinations ( Nalim mehta). .now a day in india all political party and all politician are selffish .  Few days back, there was a Patidar  movement for reservation and they used Sardar Patel’s name in the movement. But patidar people don’t understand the actual role of sardar patel in india.  Like Ashoka, Sardar Patel  never talked about his caste only.

Bhumi Dangi

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Sep 27, 2015, 8:54:10 AM9/27/15
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it is said that " History is biggest fiction. " one can add or remove something as per their convenience. In the time of monarchy ' Lahia ' (writer) were adopted to write the history. It is but obvious thing he would write good things about the king.

So that we are suppose to read so many things in history which is not in written form . It is something which people use to call historical sense. one must develop it while going through any kind of write up.

Kishan Hariyani

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Sep 27, 2015, 8:54:10 AM9/27/15
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in the first article Habib presented the indian history .and he interpreted about to castism of india and threre are many kind of problem happened because of blindness in matter of religion and thats way many types of controversy out in society and also some kind of political aspects out and many other things we can't bring out peple from this .because not any broad thinking ant they remain in narrow thinker.there are many problems but india is country suffering from cancer of castism.

Devika Gohil

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Sep 27, 2015, 8:54:10 AM9/27/15
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‘History is always written by winners’. It is true that history only records the winning not the defeat. And history comes from the memory. As the time pass people will make use of history as per their interest area, sometime unknowingly and sometime deliberately. It is also connected with the power position.

The casting of ‘Ashoka’ is connected with the cast system. Why suddenly the figure of Ashoka become so important? Again it is connected with the politics and the area of interest who are at the power position. Again recreating the history of ashoka as the need of time.

Neha Mehta

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Sep 27, 2015, 9:22:26 AM9/27/15
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Respected sir,


                  As we know that first Article by Irfan Habib. We connect this idea with this article. Histories are written by Winners. History uses for documentation. History is fact about Ashok and Chandragupta. History always description of events and we come to many things from it. Bihar is already backward state in education so politicians know that will raise the hand or question. Some time political leader used people as a puppet, vote and power position. Ashok is born in lower cast. Ashoka  as a cast leader is part of these ground level. We should not use his power for one state and it is a Kushwaha leader. So we can say that Ashoka in all this matter is show that how our politiciens are suffering. 
                                       Thank You..

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Jayshree Solanki <solankija...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jasoliya Vaishali

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Sep 27, 2015, 9:22:26 AM9/27/15
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Respected sir,
* " Attempts on to destroy Indian history but history's not mythology or theology"

            Irfan Habib debated Indian History with Eram Agha. Some people for their own sake they try to destroy the history. We think that, people also connect with past and present. We forget that "History is merely a one part of thing which is written by winners not by losers" As we studied Pastness of past that people wants to play power politics. He is said that the History cannot remove. History is the pillar through which the entire country stands. It is not mythology or theology but it is fact.
                  So, he said that accurate history serves the nation in the same manner as accurate memory serves the individual.

* Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar
                               - Nalim Mehta
            

               Every country has some basic problems that are even today we cannot able to remove.

For Example:
Europe - Race problem
America - Class problem

India have problem with cast.

               In our India we can see that there are many castes. Now a days "Cast system" is a big issue in our India. When time came they used it as a tool and got votes in their pocket. Ashoka as a caste leader like Sardar Patel. In present time our politics and leader have been do that, our particular caste.
                    At last we can see that, History is bitter and also problematic but we remember rise History. We think that recalling and rethink of past and learn History. Its a really wonderful article.
                                  Thanks........

Daya Gohil

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Sep 27, 2015, 9:22:26 AM9/27/15
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Respected sir, 
           Intrview of historian irfan Habib.
   The historian irfan Habib the agree with the indian history is a historical reaserch th eindian council fild now with the RSS men.
                         The effort to run down Gandhi and Nehru is an old one RSS. The british while pouring venom on the national movement's leaders.The records what happens the distnguisehed from mythology as well astheology. 
                I agree with the irfan Habib the indian history in the muslim remove and hindu want the give in a election more than cast in a indian history of politics. The indian council fild now with the RSS men is a goverment rule a present the Gandhi and is an old one RSS.
       Cast-ing Ashoka in bihar.
  The ashoka is a second artical cast-ing Ashoka in Bihar the many cuntry is same problem of the cast want to the election it's problem remove the politics on them. The Ashoka is a going to bihar in election  we will be the  celebration of 2300 years ago the great perso a king of Ashoka.
 Thank you....

lewade krupali

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Sep 27, 2015, 9:22:27 AM9/27/15
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Respected sir,

               Here is my response on both this articles.

Interview by Irfan Habib

    “ Attempts on to destroy Indian History but History is not Mythology or Theology”

In this interview he is speaking with Eram Agha. people try to destroy but history is very much connected with us. ‘History is made by winner not by loser’. We can also say that time is not static. It changes time and again.

         Another article is "Cast politics and ashoka in Bihar".

In india cast creates problem and in other country class creates problem. These are burning issues of the society and politicians take advantage of this. One of the recent example of caste conflict is ‘patidar adolan by patel samj.

Thank you…………


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Monali Jethwa <monalij...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brijal Oza

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Sep 28, 2015, 12:27:23 AM9/28/15
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No, Sir.  before Aurangzeb, there was caste system in India.

On Sep 20, 2015 1:48 PM, "Dilip Barad" <dilip...@gmail.com> wrote:
Brijal Oza,
Do you mean to say that before Aurangzeb, there was not caste system in India? Or during his rule caste discrimination aggravated more?

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Brijal Oza <brijal...@gmail.com> wrote:
My opinion about the second artical-Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar.
India always suffer from the "Castism" from the Auranzeb's era and now it is big issue in our india regarding cast. Now-a-days, people are fighting with each other for the cast and make a big issue in the country, they never thought that that is not their own problem. Recently, we can see in Gujarat about the OBC movement by "Patidar Samaj", and therefore may be the other people are also doing such kind of things by following the Patidar Samaj. According to me, if people want to change the  India , then they have to be change their mind regarding the "CAST" or "Castism".  
My opinion regarding first artical of Iran Habib:
Yes, history is not mythology or theology, but it is fact. Some people are destory the history for their own self reason , they never thoght that the history is the pillar of the whole country and therefore by the history of the country people remain the story if they do not destroy the history of that country.people should secure the Indian history by their own undersatnding that" this is my country and I must have save this hostory for the country and for the new generation."

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, dodiya meghana <mdod...@gmail.com> wrote:

1) Attempts on to destroy Indian history but history's not mythology or theology.
         Irfan Habib & other historians have not existing justice with genuine history of the nation.   
        I agree with IRFAN HABiB that Govt.must only visit the past but also take step that history is not repeated.

chintavan bhungani

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Oct 2, 2015, 2:14:13 PM10/2/15
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my view about historian irfan habib that history's not mythology or theology or any religious book but anything human create in old age and now we read this history only for information what is life style and situation in old time .not any religious or personal talk about cast ,but India is so many people who follow many religion so our own problem what to follow or where do we belong. so do not destroy Indian history but think positive and show reality of society rather than close it by certain.

                      inserting topic in second article casting Asoka in Bihar  
                                   in India all the people came and ruled over in India by the policy of "divide and rule" but our politician now a days use same policy for rule like "divide and religion" because Indian people always follow great person through with cast-ism  like follow religion but not mans. don not think about cast but help all the people with slogan; i am an Indian not this cast or this name.

Jayti Thakar

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Oct 2, 2015, 2:14:13 PM10/2/15
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Dear Sir,

        In the answer of this first article I just want to say that, ‘one is incomplete without his past’ it connects with an individual but the same thing happens with the nation if the history would destroyed next generation could never calculate the change, development and progress in nation and can never measure what should be the next step. There is saying that future is depends on present and present is depends on past. So, I agree to Irfan Habib.  


On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Brijal Oza <brijal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Umaba Gohil

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Oct 3, 2015, 5:30:18 AM10/3/15
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respected sir
 as we  know that first artical by  irfan habib we connect this idea with artical histories are written by winner history aiways description of events and come to many things from it... some time political leader used people as puppet vote and power position.ashok is born in lower cast. leader is part of these ground level...
 thank you.....

Pandya Dharmishtha

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Oct 3, 2015, 5:30:18 AM10/3/15
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Respected Sir, 
  My personal opinion about the first article of Irfan Habib. Historian Irfan Habib is professor, emeritus, aligarh Muslim university. We connect this idea with this article Histories are written by winner. History uses for documentary. History always description of event and we come to many thing from it.

Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar

-        Nalim Mehta.

 The ashoka is a second artical cast-ing Ashoka in Bihar the many cuntry is same problem of the cast want to the election it's problem remove the politics on them. The Ashoka is a going to bihar in election  we will be the  celebration of 2300 years ago the great perso a king of Ashoka.
 Thank you....

Devangiba Gohil

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Oct 3, 2015, 9:20:47 AM10/3/15
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                                                            My first opinion regarding Irfan habib is that we always speak about histor. In history facts have been recorded. Some people their personal use they try to destroy destroy history. They change the name in the history. Our past is connected with our future.
                                                      My second opinion is that India has a big issue regarding the CAST. We have to try change our mindset regarding the cast and casticism.
                          

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jayti Thakar <jjayti....@gmail.com> wrote:

Alpa Solanki

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Oct 6, 2015, 7:39:32 AM10/6/15
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My opinion regarding the first article by Iran Habib is;

Yes, history is not mythology or theology, but it is fact. Some people are destory the history for their own self reason , they never thoght that the history is the pillar of the whole country and therefore by the history of the country people remain the story if they do not destroy the history of that country.people should secure the Indian history by their own undersatnding that" this is my country and I must have save this hostory for the country and for the new generation."
 Cast-ing Ashoka in bihar.
  The ashoka is a second artical cast-ing Ashoka in Bihar the many cuntry is same problem of the cast want to the election it's problem remove the politics on them. The Ashoka is a going to bihar in election  we will be the  celebration of 2300 years ago the great perso a king of Ashoka.

Gopi Pipavat

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Oct 7, 2015, 5:34:59 AM10/7/15
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Historian Irfan habib interview on topic history.it is conflict between human memory and the individual thinking problem come out when we read history false way. 
Historian Irfan habib is professor emeritus,   Aligarh muslim university. Habib discussed hotly debated Indian history.
He says discussion history provokes so many conflicts.it simply records what happens.it must be distinguished from mythology as well as theology .accurate history serves the nation in the same manner  as accurate memory serves the individual .it is not the purpose of history to glorify either vedic times or early islam –a false reading of history often justices barbourous acts.

My personal view on article Ashoka in bihar.
Ashoka was a gret   emperor and he ruled more than 2000years ago.he never paid attention to his cast. He focued on becoming an emperor .  the  present political fighting is back biting and curiosity deciteful. India can face an implosion it the cast system not dismented.the whole politics of cast system stinks.it should be abolished.it not disintergration can be for casted.



Zarna Bhatti

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Oct 7, 2015, 5:34:59 AM10/7/15
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Respected Sir,

First article Habib presented the Indian history. Irfan Habib also try to say something like this. We all know that Mahatma Gandhi refered a lot time and again because truth and non-violence. I also says that some people for their own they try to destroy the history.

nidhij...@gmail.com

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Oct 8, 2015, 12:32:16 PM10/8/15
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Respected Sir,
It is very interesting interview. I want to say that cast and religion deeply rooted in Indian culture. In India we found lot's of religious fighting among two or more than two religions, because there are so many religion found in India. But one have to come out form this kind of boundaries. Art have not any kind of boundaries. Both art and religion both are remain separate from each other. Art never thought about religion and cast of artist, that which religion and which cast she or he comes. It's possible that as Hindu Rajnikant plays better roll of Tipu Sultan. I want to ask one question that "Why we don't have problem, when Sulman khan plays roll of Bajrungi Bhaijan, as he is muslim he plays roll of hindu?" Because of this sometimes artist could not express their art freely, here pollution of cast and religion plays vital role. We found that because of this things India remains steps back in to progress and couldn't walk with the global county.

* In India casting or cast system is very common and burning issue. Cast base elections are very problematic. It's not good. It's very surprising, that suddenly some people says that we are son of king Ashoka and some say they belongs to 'vansh of Kush'( Rama' s son). Only for election the people connect them selves with the great king Ashok and Kush or Luv. Now it's become common, we found that with the name of Sardar Patel Patidar smaj also do ' Andolan'. Ashoka was great king and he wants to save his kingdom and people, but in politics what is happening? .... and other things it is not necessary that the posterity of great king are always great. Maybe they becomes and behave totally apposite from their forefathers.




Sent from my ASUS

Tejasvi Joshi

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Oct 9, 2015, 1:30:35 PM10/9/15
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my opinion regarding the first  article by Irfan Habib is  that history is not refers to any theology, but it is a fact. some people their own shake they try to destroy history.and history is connected with our future. history help us to understand the country's situations.
                      my second opinion is that regarding to Ashoka many country face the problem of casticism and we have try to change our mindset.
     
            

Vala Asha

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Oct 25, 2015, 5:37:30 AM10/25/15
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 Respected Sir,

 Article of Irfan Habib speaks about history. According to T.S. Eliot " the historical sense involves a perception,not only the pastness of the past, but also its presence." If we connect this idea with this article, we cannot say that history speaks about truth or facts, but if we understood the present some basic ideas of past are important. Though history is always written by the winners, but we can assume the circumstances of that time. Here is one thing about renaming the Aurangzeb Road,but why should they do that kinds of thing?  Here we can apply the theory of Miachel Foucault's idea of Power & Knowledge. Banning meat connected with religious emotions but we are individual and free human beings so one should not denied to whatever we want. 

Trivedi Disha

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Oct 27, 2015, 5:32:28 AM10/27/15
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        In the first article Habib presented the indian history .and he interpreted about to castism of india and threre are many kind of problem happened because of blindness in matter of religion and thats way many types of controversy out in society and also some kind of political aspects out and many other things we can't bring out peple from this .because not any broad thinking ant they remain in narrow thinker.there are many problems but india is country suffering from cancer of castism.

                                                                                                                                                            Thank You

--

Vala Jyotsna

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Oct 27, 2015, 5:32:28 AM10/27/15
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Respected sir,


Everything is going on changing and therefore we cannot say that history is destroying, but we should also think that new history is creating. Names are replaced by religion it is a problem. In documentation and general knowledge I read What, is the old name of Ijipt or VadnagarIs there any reason for creating new name?  Meena Mehata said Instead of telling us truth, you have portrayed a distorted view of Islamic rule

Add I agree with her comment.

What history can make? Why we should remember history? History uses for documentation. History written by winner so obliviously they write good about themselves. Politicians are searching a way to condition the mind of people. Ashoka  had reign over large aria and therefore we should not use his power for one state. He was a great emperor of India but he had never focus on any particular caste. He believed in developing state. Bihar is already backward state in education so politicians know that nobody will raise the hand or question. History cannot destroyed, it often twisted. If the history is fact about Ashoka and Chandragupta then what will make to new government? Not all generation are equal. Why given the name of Rama’s son Kush and Ashok? They are great in history so… or for the sake of their profit.

    Thank you..


On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Vala Asha <valaa...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Asha Dodiya

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Oct 27, 2015, 12:40:34 PM10/27/15
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Respected sir,


                  As we know that first Article by Irfan Habib. We connect this idea with this article. Histories are written by Winners. History uses for documentation. History is fact about Ashok and Chandragupta. History always description of events and we come to many things from it. Bihar is already backward state in education so politicians know that will raise the hand or question. Some time political leader used people as a puppet, vote and power position. Ashok is born in lower cast. Ashoka  as a cast leader is part of these ground level. We should not use his power for one state and it is a Kushwaha leader. So we can say that Ashoka in all this matter is show that how our politiciens are suffering. 
                                       Thank You.

JANKI RANA

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Oct 30, 2015, 9:20:48 AM10/30/15
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Here are my views regarding to
Interview of Historian Irfan Habib and
Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar.

  History is biggest fiction and  histoy , power and politics are connected  in each movement.

Controversy is going on Javed Akhtar's interview on

 A R Rahman to give music in an Iranian film on Mohmad Paigambar.And if he may gives his music to this film it may hurt religious sensibilities of Indian Muslims and so he is threatened that there may be Fatwa against him.

 how  silly is this ...this is his profession and  we can't  stop him if he is best  in his work  then no one has right to stop him and  about film we can say that history is itself a biggest fiction and its individual s choice to make films  and  Muslim should  feel  proud  and  they should think positively  because they are living in 21century and  if a film maker wants to make film  on Mohmad Paigambar thats good everyone will comes to know about their history and its good that he is trying to give a best music to this film.Dont need to think that a Hindu is giving music to this film jst think he is best and he is indian as you are. 

Secondly, there is a film being planned on the life of Tipu Sultan - a Muslim ruler of Mysore. It is rumored that Rajnikant will play the role of Tipu Sultan. This has hurt religious sensibilities of Hindus. It is also believed that Tipu was against Tamils and so no Tamil should play any role in the biopic on Tipu. Again a stupid beliefs who cares he is Hindu or Muslim or someone else he is  good actor  and  he knows his work better than us. lf a film makes has confidence and faith in him that he is suitable for this role than what else is needed. Change mindsets towards positivity and just come out of useless rigidity.

radha ghevariya

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Oct 30, 2015, 9:20:48 AM10/30/15
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Respected sir,
      Yes, i agree with this articles because History is always connected  with past and yes ; history is always written by winners.

On 14 Sep 2015 10:10, "Dilip Barad" <dilip...@gmail.com> wrote:

All students,
Two articles are shared for online discussion .
1) Interview of Historian Irfan Habib
2) Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar.

History is similar to memory. As in case of individual Memory of past (memory is alwaya about past) helps in organizing present and future. Similarly,  History helps in organising present and future of National / Society.
History is recalled, rewritten ans reinterpreted, time and again. All rereading or appropriation of historical figures/facts gives us understanding about the power and it's relation with History. (HISTORY IS ALWAYS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS. The defeated are always disparaged in history).

You are invited to share your views / opinions of  the two writeups.  What do you think about the views expressed? Do you agree or disagree with the views? Why? What's your logic?

Share in reply to this email.
Remember: please do not change subject line. Just click reply, copy paste your answer and send.

The discussion  is open for one week - 14 to 21 September 2015.

Dilip Barad, Ph.D.
Prof & Head, Dept. of English
M.K. Bhavnagar University
Gujarat - India
9898272313 / 9427733691
(Excuse typos -Sent from smart phone SN2)

--

Ravi Bhaliya

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Nov 1, 2015, 3:39:04 AM11/1/15
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Here in this article Irfan Habib Presented  Indian History . in the first article Habib presented the indian history .and he of religion and that s  way many types of controversy out in society and also some kind of political aspects out and many other things we can't bring out people from this. A myth is an attempt to explain other things as well, such as a certain custom or practice of a human society. The word “theology” comes from two Greek words that combined mean “the study of God.”


 Politicians have played political Roles that why they are in Politics . When Election are near they comes with things that are hidden in history or  the things that was marginalized in the History . Through they give respect from those who still note in Page of History and they Contributed well and they show their image as they do good things for society . 

Nikunj Bhatti

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Nov 1, 2015, 7:24:20 AM11/1/15
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My opinion about the second artical-Caste-ing Ashoka in Bihar. India always suffers from the "Castism" from it is big question in India concerning cast. 21th century it is Age of technology but at that time people fighting with each other for the cast and make a big issue in the country. We can see In Gujarat “Patidar Samaj” for OBC. So according to my points of view its can’t change in India. 

pintu solanki

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Nov 2, 2015, 2:38:18 PM11/2/15
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 In the first article Habib presented the Indian history. in the first article Habib presented the indian history .and he of religion and that s  way many types of controversy out in society and also some kind of political aspects out and many other things we can't bring out people from this.

 

Do politicians really care about history, or Ashoka? Arguably the political maneuvering of laying claims on the legacy of a historical figure to win votes and power, says volumes about the what the politicians and political parties think of people.

   politicians connects caste of great once with people so they feel bondage towards them and give vote on the name of great politicians.

Yesha Bhatt

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Jan 3, 2016, 12:11:08 PM1/3/16
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1. History simply records what happens. It helps as a past to make the present and future batter.
It's also true that history is always written by the winners so it always presents the good things about the king or emperor. People should use history in a positive way to create a batter future.
2. The use of great figures for their own purpose has became a trend of politicians. They always thinks about their own betterment.

rajyaguru ravi

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Feb 2, 2016, 5:35:09 AM2/2/16
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1.We do not know what happened in history. We just came to know about it by listing or reading it somewhere. Just because of the history, we came to know about what type of mistakes they have done and thr