I think all the etymological and linguist discussion detracts from the actual issue that we are trying to solve.
I would argue that it does not matter where words come from, or how we, the privileged people, interpret them. The only questions we need to answer are:
Do these words makes Black people less welcome?
Would replacing them be an improvement for them?
Then we can evaluate how hard it would be to change, and compare it to how much we value their experience.
Instead of focusing on logic and prior knowledge, let's focus on future developer experience.
This might require you to fence failed nodes (sometimes referred to as STONITH).
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHoz%3DMZrOAQ94Whn0PpDa%2BuJzGSs%3DWAWHbO0nn8rc0D94uUAcw%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM1F3dRC9xaWWr47zbCfwDLEmspaTK3u%2Bf0%3DmcoRQ5%2B%3Dvw%40mail.gmail.com.
We don't have to justify anything to anyone. If we want to change words in *our* framework, it's absolutely nobody's business but our own.
If black members of the DSF or the community are disheartened that the word "black" gets to refer to so many negative things and are bothered when they see them in Django, then that alone is sufficient justification.
If we want a reason for changing "blacklist" (or whatever), it's that people in our community said they would feel better about it and asked to have it changed.
Acknowledging how someone feels about something and acting because you care about their feelings seems to be a respectful thing to do.
"We did it because we felt like it" is an utterly unanswerable justification.
The DSF has credibility because the software is first rate, the foundation is well-governed and the community is an international example of decency and kindness. Things like this become credible because the DSF chooses to do them - it's not the other way round.
Regardless of origin, allow/deny are simply clearer terms that does not require tracing the history of black/white as representations of that meaning. We can simply use the meaning directly.
The Django it is a community framework and we have to pay attention to that. History play a major role in our daily lives and we have to avoid any word that have racial connection. Django community is growing fast in Africa and we hate things that taking us back to Apartheid/Slave era since we believe in spirit of Ubuntu.
If the black community think certain words in English make them feel less welcome and they can justify that, please let’s change it or simply we can do whatever we like to our framework. We don't have to justify anything to anyone, we’re doing what we think it is best for our community and future Developers. Personally I think we should do our best to adopt neutral language that would be accepted by our community of black, white or whatsoever.
Words like Blacklist should be avoid at all cost. I would go for deny list or deny instead of Blacklist and Allow list or accept instead of White-list.
At beginning I was bothered by the word Blacklist until I get use to it, we don’t use it at the region where I came from because of the history. Let’s make the documentation more inclusive, and clearer. If there is something that needs to be changed let’s just do it while it is early.
+1 on this discussion progression. I too struggled with certain
expressions in my earlier English-learning days, but today the
used expressions don't carry any unnecessary baggage for me as my
understanding of them is purely technical. So, while I myself
don't have a problem with them, I can see that others might.
I'd also dare to say there shouldn't be much flak to take anyway.
The cause seems OK, but there is heightened pressure due to recent
events. I would say this alone is the only thing that I see might
be an issue: why exactly now?
LP,
Jure
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/4FC8DDEB-2A3C-4B31-9265-D07F28D6CFCA%40polytechnique.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0a78ec9c-4837-fb3b-6aa6-9497def4de65%40gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CACzaa%3DFO56Vqy5TCqMw2DzC_0pV1LwfE%3D92umuGqnvks0wR90g%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAM2o%3DwNre_3k6fsWMiF6xdq5%2Bo2Pky5-g5a31Ye%3DOqn8XoBRFw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHoz%3DMZrOAQ94Whn0PpDa%2BuJzGSs%3DWAWHbO0nn8rc0D94uUAcw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1b47e74f1811390add42c91dab4ccea104b89fcf.camel%40gammascience.co.uk.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHoz%3DMZ9P4ONPbGegRwTnuebyMT5PjbEjHN-38rG18K20u6gTQ%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM3mu_bUh3%2Bc-uJv8Nq6vWLMPrk%2B9Yno8-%3Dq60-xQGrxow%40mail.gmail.com.
On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah <a.ly...@checkio.org> wrote:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1c9178a3-cb80-428c-bacb-e8904695f6b6o%40googlegroups.com.
--
I'd argue that since Django is an international framework, we should strive to set an international standard. If a certain word is off-putting or problematic to individuals in our community, and if it does not convey an accurate and least astonishing meaning to a non-native English speaker, then we should definitely change it.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:54 PM Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org> wrote:
--Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and meaningful.What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on right now.If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a banner on that landing page. Feel free to chooseAnd this kind of contribution will work much better.Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion.On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:This ticket was closed wontfix as requiring a discussion here.David Smith mentioned this Tox issue stating it had been closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these types of changes.I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also worried about our credibility if we don't.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com.
As an international framework I think we should make our interface as language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are simply semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing argument for me.
On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org> wrote:
--Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and meaningful.What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on right now.If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a banner on that landing page. Feel free to chooseAnd this kind of contribution will work much better.Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion.On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:This ticket was closed wontfix as requiring a discussion here.David Smith mentioned this Tox issue stating it had been closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these types of changes.I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also worried about our credibility if we don't.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/19a78e27-7d1d-4f0b-a2af-8a9594aa620fo%40googlegroups.com.
Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged the PR's to Django.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/19a78e27-7d1d-4f0b-a2af-8a9594aa620fo%40googlegroups.com.
--Adam
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/d5c3a001-b7f0-4dd6-b43a-1439df36c71co%40googlegroups.com.
Robert, thank you for your response.For me, as an experience developer, blacklist is more descriptive, since I saw this word in so many other places, languages, frameworks. But it is just me, I'm here not to say that my opinion is more important than anyone else's.
. Next week US-news will have a new subject for discussion, new words will be claimed to be abusive, new django community member will find an abusive word in source code (or sounds like it or very close to it), and community will be happy to claim this word to be not that descriptive, and find a better, more description replacement for it.with big respect
On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 6:54:57 PM UTC+3, Robert Roskam wrote:Hey All,
I see this opportunity to rename these things to be what they in plain, descriptive language. Since we will rarely have as many people together considering this change, I find it useful to think what we would have named these things from the beginning and then consider if our naming could be more clear.
I also found the term master odd when I first started using git. It didn't map to anything or have an analogy that I found useful. If we switched to main/trunk or whatever Github decides on, I don't much care what the new name scheme is.Some elaboration: when I first came into professional technical circles, I found the tendency to use color as a short-cut for culturally accepted meaning to be potentially confusing to those from other cultures. White/black, red/green/yellow may have received _technical_ meanings from the last 50-60 years or so from the American-centric culture, and I speak ignorantly, since I'm an American, but I don't know if I can assume that other cultures do the same.
Further, I find the allow/deny, accept/block for lists of things as far more descriptive.
Robert Roskam
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-4, Tom Carrick wrote:This ticket was closed wontfix as requiring a discussion here.David Smith mentioned this Tox issue stating it had been closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these types of changes.I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also worried about our credibility if we don't.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/e6311154-ecfc-4117-a1c4-da669dfa6523o%40googlegroups.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com.
In this word developers said "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. Some of community members have sent proposal for renaming blacklist, but we 100% sure, that this term has nothing to do with racism. Moreover, terms can't explain things 100% clear, we just use those terms to explain things faster. Because we are here is not for inventing and reinventing new terms, we are here for building new things. Let me explain in example. When one dev from US said to another dev from France - "don't forget to add blacklist functionality here", that explains a lot, because term blacklist is commonly known term. Someone, from community have an idea to rename all blacklist in source code to allowlist, and don't use term "blacklist" at all. Well in that case when dev from France will ask "allowlist is a list which is allowed to be expended? Or allowlist is a list that is allowed to be used by other lists?", the US-dev will answer "No, don't use read US-newspapers? allowlist is the same as blacklist but without racism", thats why we don't want to reinvent terms for what ever reason. Thank you for understanding"
But in the same world astrophysicists haven't been that wise, so they claimed: "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. Thats why we decide not to use term "black hole" instead we will use term "heavy thing", we've asked a lot of other astrophysicists and they all agree that "heavy thing" explains thing better, of course, we are not following for renaming trend, we are here for science, it is just a good time to rename something that we have planed to rename long time ago. Remember, this all is for future generation of astrophysicists not for current generation, because we think, that the next generation will be much dumber and we should help them to understand new terms"
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/tctDuKUGosc/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/6fb9c6cc-39a6-4741-9d61-d03a44d9c477%40www.fastmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAFHoQAD1i2X_HXjNPvHGHwYsaamxfMtjGDMT_F-6kg7FVHb5EA%40mail.gmail.com.