phosphorus

[Monique Warren]

I really don’t understand how all this google stuff works. Just read a post that talked about Donna’s hay needing phosphorus. Was this hay tested for nitrates ? My experience w/ the 2 hays I tested that were low in Ph. Was One was 3700ppm and the other 4711ppm. Would test this hay and all hay for nitrates. It is only $6.00 and most of the farmers in SW flood irrigate and fertilize w/ nitrogen between every cutting.

 

 

ABOUT LOW PHOSPHORUS ;

 

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubs/PDF/C915.pdf

 

Decreasing the Risk of Nitrate Toxicity

Fertilization - Nitrogen fertilization is critical to

high forage yields. However, splitting the nitrogen

applications throughout the growing season rather than

applying the full rate at the beginning of the season

reduces the risk of high nitrate concentrations.

Furthermore, plants may also have higher nitrate

concentrations when soils are deficient in other major

nutrients (phosphorus, potassium, etc.).

 

http://www.epa.gov/owow/monitoring/volunteer/stream/vms57.html

 

Nitrates from land sources end up in rivers and streams more quickly than other nutrients like phosphorus. This is because they dissolve in water more readily than phosphates, which have an attraction for soil particles. As a result, nitrates serve as a better indicator of the possibility of a source of sewage or manure pollution during dry weather

 

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/dairy/as1256w.htm

 

 

• Soil fertility with high nitrogen/low phosphorus increases the risk of both high nitrates and prussic acid

 

 

Producers should understand the potential for nitrate accumulation in various plants (Table 1). Extreme caution should be employed when grazing fields that are infested with weeds that are known nitrate accumulators, or when grazing summer annuals during and shortly following drought stress. Producers with primarily non-accumulator species have little to fear from nitrate toxicity as long as nitrogen fertilization is not excessive.

Table 1. Accumulator and Non-accumulator plants

Accumulators	Non-accumulators
Johnsongrass	Bermudagrass
Sorghum x Sudangrass Hybrids	Fescue
Pearl Millet	Orchardgrass
Lambsquarters Pigweed	Small Grains Ryegrass
	Legumes

 

If nitrate levels are consistently high (above 0.25%) in non-accumulator plants such as bermudagrass, it indicates that there is too much nitrogen being applied to the soil, and annual nitrogen application rates should be reduced

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/v839.html

Nitrite is absorbed into red blood cells and combines with hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying molecule) to form methemoglobin. Methemoglobin cannot transport oxygen as efficiently as hemoglobin, so the animal’s heart rate and respiration increase, the blood and tissues of the animal take on a blue to chocolate brown tinge, muscle tremors can develop, staggering occurs and the animal eventually suffocates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methemoglobin

Methemoglobin (British English: Methaemoglobin) (pronounced "MET-hemoglobin") is a form of the oxygen-carrying protein hemoglobin (British English: haemoglobin), in which the iron in the heme group is in the Fe³⁺ state, not the Fe²⁺ of normal hemoglobin. Methemoglobin cannot carry oxygen. It is a bluish chocolate-brown in color. The NADH-dependent enzyme methemoglobin reductase (diaphorase I) is responsible for converting methemoglobin back to hemoglobin.

Normally one to two percent of people's hemoglobin is methemoglobin; a higher percentage than this can be genetic or caused by exposure to various chemicals and depending on the level can cause health problems known as Methemoglobinemia. A higher level of methemoglobin will tend to cause a pulse oximeter to read closer to 85% regardless of the true level of oxygen saturation

 

Monique

[Patti]

That's good Monique. 

I was thinking of nitrate but was in a hurry - and the protein is on the high end but not excessively high for Bermuda. I haven't had time to read all your info on nitrates (and sort out the discussion going on with the Grads list). 

Donna just attached her spread sheet, not the original analysis results.

Enter Analysis	Amount in
	18	lbs
DE 0.86	15.5	Mcal
CP10.9	890	g
Lysine0.38	31.0	g
Ca 0.470	38.4	g
P 0.120	9.8	g
Mg 0.170	13.9	g
K 1.750	142.9	g
Na 0.067	5.5	g

So Donna - did you by any chance include nitrates? Was the test recent enough they might still have your sample and could add it in?

Patti

[Monique Warren]

My new hay is 11.7 protein Ca. Ph ratio almost 2:1. Nitrates 600ppm. Also w/ the flood irrigating they use a liquid nitrogen, less expensive and less labor intensive. Scary thinking about the low lying areas. Trust me I’ve done my homework. Please always test for nitrates !

 

Also, to calculate the nitrate results correctly  from Equi-analytical take the :

% times 10,000 or PPM X 4.4

Can be VERRY confusing and misleading.

 

Monique

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[donna]

Hi Patti, I ordered the Equi-Tech and did not order anything extra.  Yes, it is recent and I can still have them test for nitrates.  However, I can't tell from what Monique posted what do to with the information once I receive it. 

 

btw, today I received the second sample we sent.  They had to send it back for a retest for wsc and esc.  I like the second sample much better.  Lower protein, lower s/s total, lower iron, better CA/P ratio.  And most important to me right now is my mare can actually chew this hay better.   She's 26 and I've been dealing with some quidding issues (yes, dental exams are current).  When we cored this hay, it was so much easier to core and she chews it without problem.

 

Attached are the SW stack results

 

Donna

 

 

[donna]

Monique, where is your hay from?  How did you get information about what the liquid nitrogen they use?

 

Donna

--
Donna Browne
Scottsdale, AZ
May 2008

[Monique Warren]

It is from Imperial Valley/Brawley, Ca. Long story short 3 of us bought from the same load of hay. All of us were having unexplained health issues. After feeding the hay we had tested (for 7 months) prior to purchasing Katie sent it in for a nitrate test. It came back 4711ppm nitrates. That hay was 12.5% only 7.0 NSC’s. Ca./Ph ratio was 2.6:1. That’s when I got on the nitrate trail !  I called the broker and told him about it. He talked to the grower and he told him how they fertilize. The grower also promised to test his first couple cuttings for nitrates the coming year. If we test for nitrates and inform the growers they can make adjustments. The plant can only utilize so much nitrogen and the rest is wasteful for them to purchase/use (guess it’s not in below but I read a ton on nitrates) ! I will just attach a little something I put together. Some of it I have already posted.

 

The test for nitrates comes back like this. I am using the #’s from my newer hay :

% nitrate   .06 X 10000 = 600

PPM nitrate-nitrogen 145 X 4.4 = 638

 

Why they report it this way I’ll never know. When the #’s did not jive my sister called and talked to the chemist at Equi-A. Bottom line for $6.00 test for nitrates know what you are feeding your horse !

 

 

 

ABOUT LOW PHOSPHORUS ;

 

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubs/PDF/C915.pdf

 

Decreasing the Risk of Nitrate Toxicity

Fertilization - Nitrogen fertilization is critical to

high forage yields. However, splitting the nitrogen

applications throughout the growing season rather than

applying the full rate at the beginning of the season

reduces the risk of high nitrate concentrations.

Furthermore, plants may also have higher nitrate

concentrations when soils are deficient in other major

nutrients (phosphorus, potassium, etc.).

 

http://www.epa.gov/owow/monitoring/volunteer/stream/vms57.html

 

Nitrates from land sources end up in rivers and streams more quickly than other nutrients like phosphorus. This is because they dissolve in water more readily than phosphates, which have an attraction for soil particles. As a result, nitrates serve as a better indicator of the possibility of a source of sewage or manure pollution during dry weather

 

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/dairy/as1256w.htm

 

 

• Soil fertility with high nitrogen/low phosphorus increases the risk of both high nitrates and prussic acid

 

ABOUT AMMONIA IN URINE ;

 

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/v839w.htm

 

Nitrate in itself is not toxic to animals, but at elevated levels it causes a disease called nitrate poisoning. Nitrates are normally found in forages are converted by the digestion process to nitrite, and in turn the nitrite is converted to ammonia. The ammonia is then converted to protein by bacteria in the rumen. If cattle rapidly ingest large quantities of plants that contain high levels of nitrate, nitrite will accumulate in the rumen. Nitrite is ten times (10 X) as toxic to cattle as nitrate

 

http://extension.missouri.edu/Henry/web%20adobe/Weekly%20News/Nitrates%20in%20livestock%20feeds.shtml

The actual form of nitrates doesn’t affect the animals.  As the feed is digested within the rumen of ruminant animals, the nitrates are converted to nitrites and then to ammonia.  Excess ammonia is absorbed into the blood and passed in the urine.  The problem occurs when the nitrite levels are too high for the bacteria to turn into ammonia, and the nitrites get absorbed into the bloodstream.

ABOUT METHEMOGLOBIN ;

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/v839.html

Nitrite is absorbed into red blood cells and combines with hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying molecule) to form methemoglobin. Methemoglobin cannot transport oxygen as efficiently as hemoglobin, so the animal’s heart rate and respiration increase, the blood and tissues of the animal take on a blue to chocolate brown tinge, muscle tremors can develop, staggering occurs and the animal eventually suffocates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methemoglobin

Methemoglobin (British English: Methaemoglobin) (pronounced "MET-hemoglobin") is a form of the oxygen-carrying protein hemoglobin (British English: haemoglobin), in which the iron in the heme group is in the Fe³⁺ state, not the Fe²⁺ of normal hemoglobin. Methemoglobin cannot carry oxygen. It is a bluish chocolate-brown in color. The NADH-dependent enzyme methemoglobin reductase (diaphorase I) is responsible for converting methemoglobin back to hemoglobin.

Normally one to two percent of people's hemoglobin is methemoglobin; a higher percentage than this can be genetic or caused by exposure to various chemicals and depending on the level can cause health problems known as Methemoglobinemia. A higher level of methemoglobin will tend to cause a pulse oximeter to read closer to 85% regardless of the true level of oxygen saturation.^[1]

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methemoglobinemia}

Methemoglobinemia is a disorder characterized by the presence of a higher than normal level of methemoglobin (metHb) in the blood. Methemoglobin is a form of hemoglobin that does not bind oxygen. When its concentration is elevated in red blood cells, tissue hypoxia can occur.

[edit] Overview

Normally, methemoglobin levels are <1%, as measured by the co-oximetry test. Elevated levels of methemoglobin in the blood are caused when the mechanisms that defend against oxidative stress within the red blood cell are overwhelmed and the oxygen carrying ferrous ion (Fe2+) of the heme group of the hemoglobin molecule is oxidized to the ferric state (Fe3+). This converts hemoglobin to methemoglobin, which is a non-oxygen binding form of hemoglobin that binds a water molecule instead of oxygen. Spontaneous formation of methemoglobin is normally counteracted by protective enzyme systems: NADH methemoglobin reductase (cytochrome-b5 reductase) (major pathway), NADPH methemoglobin reductase (minor pathway) and to a lesser extent the ascorbic acid and glutathione enzyme systems

EFFECTS ON THYROID ; Dr. Kellon sent me this. Nitrates block the uptake of iodine.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/eced/doi/10.1055/s-0029-1210603

 

 

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/v839.html

 

 Common plants known to accumulate nitrate.

Crops	Weeds
Barley	Canada Thistle
Corn	Dock
Flax	Jimsonweed
Millet	Johnson Grass
Oats	Kochia
Rape	Lambsquarter
Rye	Nightshade
Soybean	Pigweed
Sorghum	Russian Thistle
Sudangrass	Smartweed
Sugar beets	Wild Sunflower
Sweetclover
Wheat

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/forglvst/Nitrdrot.htm

 

Producers should understand the potential for nitrate accumulation in various plants (Table 1). Extreme caution should be employed when grazing fields that are infested with weeds that are known nitrate accumulators, or when grazing summer annuals during and shortly following drought stress. Producers with primarily non-accumulator species have little to fear from nitrate toxicity as long as nitrogen fertilization is not excessive.

Table 1. Accumulator and Non-accumulator plants

Accumulators	Non-accumulators
Johnsongrass	Bermudagrass
Sorghum x Sudangrass Hybrids	Fescue
Pearl Millet	Orchardgrass
Lambsquarters Pigweed	Small Grains Ryegrass
	Legumes

 

If nitrate levels are consistently high (above 0.25%) in non-accumulator plants such as bermudagrass, it indicates that there is too much nitrogen being applied to the soil, and annual nitrogen application rates should be reduced

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask all the ?’s you want. I spent days studying nitrates and causes for them to be elevated in plants.

[donna]

>> If nitrate levels are consistently high (above 0.25%) in non-accumulator plants such as bermudagrass, it indicates that there is too much nitrogen being applied to the soil, and annual nitrogen application rates should be reduced<

 

So I gather this information would be used as a determination of whether or not to purchase the hay.  Or is there something you can do to compensate for it?  I already had the stack delivered.  If I retest, I'm still not clear how you figure the %.  Below you say your hay was 12.5%, is that the nitrate %?  That seems very high if it shouldn't be above 0.25%.

 

What were the symptoms of your horses' unexplained health issues?

 

I too did a little research once about nitrates when I was still planting a small area for the horses to graze on and a bunch of Little Mallow weeds took it over.  Had read about high nitrates in weeds from the Cushing's list.  Now that I know better, I stopped planting any grass for the horses and have a dry lot with a paddock track and slow feeders to keep them busy all day long :)  It's been working wonders.

 

Donna

[Monique Warren]

 

 

From: desertequ...@googlegroups.com [mailto:desertequ...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of donna
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:30 AM
To: desertequ...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DesertEquineBalance] nitrates

 

>> If nitrate levels are consistently high (above 0.25%) in non-accumulator plants such as bermudagrass, it indicates that there is too much nitrogen being applied to the soil, and annual nitrogen application rates should be reduced<

 

So I gather this information would be used as a determination of whether or not to purchase the hay. 

 

Absolutely. There really aren’t enough studies out there on nitrates and horses. They are not as affected as cattle BUT anything over 2000ppm is not considered safe for mares in foal as they can abort. So, IMO it is not safe for any horse. The bottom line is you have a choice ! Just test and I would not buy anything over 1500ppm.

 Or is there something you can do to compensate for it?  I already had the stack delivered. 

You can soak although I don’t know how much they are reduced. If your hay is high in nitrates you can send in a sample soaked and see what you get. I still have my “poison” hay 4700ppm. I only feed it as a 1/3 of their diet. I purchased more hay that came in at 600ppm (tested for nitrates BEFORE I bought it)  that is 2/3 of their diet. So w/ the 2 hays combined I am still under 2000ppm and that is the best I can do for now. I would love to just throw away my poison hay but I still had 70 bales of it left when I found out. I only have 2 horses so I will have it forever !  And feed more iodine, my guys are getting 6.5 mg. iodine. Don’t panic, just test and make adjustments accordingly.

 

 If I retest, I'm still not clear how you figure the %.  You can call AND e-mail Chris Hallam on Monday and just have them run the test. They keep samples up to 3 weeks after testing them. You’ll have it in a day or two. It will still only be $6.00

 Below you say your hay was 12.5%, that was protein.  is that the nitrate %?  That seems very high if it shouldn't be above 0.25%. This is how you calculate it :

The test for nitrates comes back like this. I am using the #’s from my newer hay :

% nitrate   .06 X 10000 = 600ppm nitrates

PPM nitrate-nitrogen 145 X 4.4 = 638ppm nitrates

If your still not sure just send me your results and I will do it for you.

 

What were the symptoms of your horses' unexplained health issues?

 

Brown blood when my gelding got an IV shot to get his teeth done. Both horses had shortness of breath w/ light work. Like just a 30 minute hike. My mare had hives even though she was on APF and spirulina. Both lost weight this winter which was a godsent but I was feeding 20% more hay than I had ever fed.

 

I too did a little research once about nitrates when I was still planting a small area for the horses to graze on and a bunch of Little Mallow weeds took it over.  Had read about high nitrates in weeds from the Cushing's list.  Now that I know better, I stopped planting any grass for the horses and have a dry lot with a paddock track and slow feeders to keep them busy all day long :)  It's been working wonders.

 

Here is an e-mail from Dr. K :

Nitrate binding to hemoglobin will normalize in 24 to 72 hours. If there is adequate iodine, thyroid levels should normalize quickly too, although I don't have a time frame for that.

Yes, go ahead and put up the file you made.

The grain hays, like oat, plus Sudan and Sorghum are particularly prone to nitrate accumulation but it can occur with any species under the right circumstances. Prolonged low sunlight, drought stress and over application of nitrogen sources, including manure, also increase risk.

The prevalence of acute toxicity is low, but more insidious problems like yours may well go undetected.

Eleanor

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Monique Warren <mwa...@tmwireless.com> wrote:

BTW How long after removing the high nitrate hay from the diet will the blood start to normalize ? I got some other hay today. It’s not tested but could not stand the thought of feeding that crappy hay. Anything should be better than what I have. I am coring a load next week to test.

 

Won’t bug you for awhile ! Could there possibly be a file started on the group about nitrates ? I think this is way more prevalent than we realize.

 

Monique

[Patti]

The test for nitrates comes back like this. I am using the #’s from my newer hay :

% nitrate   .06 X 10000 = 600

PPM nitrate-nitrogen 145 X 4.4 = 638

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monique ~ 

EA reports the same as DO - % for nitrate, PPM for nitrate-nitrogen. 

Why are you multiplying %nitrate by 1000? to get ppm? the DO chart uses %, not ppm though I see the NSU paper uses ppm. But that doesn't change the "value" - just the format.

Then why are you multiplying PPM nitrate-nitrogen x 4.4?  That changes the value.

I'm missing something here.

Previously, I've always gone with the DO range for safety; I'm starting to wonder if its going to be difficult to find hay with lower ranges being discussed in the Grad's group. I don't doubt that the lower range is likely more correct but I'd love to know the origin of that range - I could only find "Dr. Kellon said..." but no direct quote or citation. She did quote much higher numbers in the first NRC+ class (higher than the DairyOne table) as safe for horses. Bottom line is that we need an actual citation to show our broker/grower that these levels are harmful.

The nitrate and nitrate-nitrogen levels in the NSU paper http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/v839w.htm match the levels in the Dairy One chart.

The levels Dr. K is quoted as saying (in the Grads group) actually look the same as the "nitrate-nitrogen" levels in the Dairy One/NSU levels except using % instead of PPM; w/o Eleanor clarifying her actual quote, can't tell if she was actually referring to nitrate or to nitrate-nitrogen.

I have no problem concerning the risks of high nitrate - just with how we're determining the safe/unsafe levels.

Patti

[Monique Warren]

http://www.extension.umn.edu/capacity/afe/horse/components/pdfs/FactSheets/FS_Drought%20and%20Frost_2-27-07.pdf

This paper talks about nitrate safety levels

 

Here is a conversion chart to convert % to ppm   http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/Percent_to_PPM.htm

 

You can call and talk to EA if you would like. Remember the ppm # they give you is nitrate-nitrogen. It’s the only way the 2 numbers jive ! The way they report their test is very deceiving, I’m sure it’s not intentional !

 

I’m not trying to panic people. This is just too important for folks not to be aware of.

 

Monique

 

From: desertequ...@googlegroups.com [mailto:desertequ...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patti

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:02 PM
To: desertequ...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [DesertEquineBalance] nitrates

--

[Patti]

 

Research has shown 

that feeding hay containing 1.5 to 2% nitrate to pregnant 

and non-pregnant mares resulted in clinically normal foals, 

even though higher than normal levels of nitrate were 

detected in blood samples. As a general rule, horses should 

not be fed hay containing more than 2% nitrate, because 

the safety of such forage has not been researched in horses.

These are the same levels Eleanor gave in the NRCPlus0608 class - and are quite a bit higher than the Dairy One recommendations for cows. So, if we follow the DO chart, the levels apparently should be safe. (i.e. <0.44% nitrate)

I have no problem switching back and forth between % and PPM. I don't understand why the "x 4.4"?. I don't expect "nitrate" and "nitrate-nitrogen" to be the same as they are not measuring exactly the same thing.

Patti 

--
Patti Woodbury-Kuvik
PO Box 759
Vail AZ 85641
Desert Equine Balance
http://desertequinebalance.blogspot.com/
and our SW Equine Nutrition group
http://groups.google.com/group/desertequinebalance

Check Out the New EC Website!
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

[Monique Warren]

.44% nitrates is 4400ppm.  So hay that is 15000ppm is okay, which is 1.5% ? Guess I’m not seeing the difference.

Now I am totally confused,

[Monique Warren]

http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/PAGES/AGRO/FORAGE13.pdf

 

Does this make sense ?

 

Mo

[Monique Warren]

http://www.dairyone.com/Forage/FactSheet/Nitrates.htm

Link to safety levels. Reports :
% Nitrate ppm Nitrate Nitrogen Comments
< 0.44 < 1012 Safe to feed

My "poison hay" is .47 % 911 ppm nitrate nitrogen pretty much right on
the cusp.

I w/out a doubt had adverse effects. Maybe the long term feeding for 7
months as this was thier only feed. Since there aren't enough studies
on long term exposure or none that I could find. I would be really
leary of anything that high. My new hay is .06% and 145 ppm nitrate/
nitrogen. Bottom line we have a choice on our horses nitrate
consumption and I will always test for them !

Monique

[donna]

Yippee, looks like my nitrates are safe :)

If I figured it the way you did yours, here's mine

% nitrate .03 X 10000 = 300
PPM nitrate-nitrogen 62 x 4.4 = 272.8

I attached the results also.

Donna

[Monique Warren]

That is soooooooooooo awesome. I am happy for you !

Monique

-----Original Message-----
From: desertequ...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:desertequ...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of donna
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:29 PM
To: desertequ...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DesertEquineBalance] nitrates

Donna

--