What was Goldman Sachs thinking?????

[Thomas E.]

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/

"Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌ launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."

How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:

"Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."

Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.

[John]

Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
intelligent bank.

[Thomas E.]

Really? Apple Card pays 3% cash back for a very few merchants, 2% on Apple Pay transactions and 1% on all else. Mine pays a 2% rebate on everything, including Apple Pay transactions and everything where Apple Pay does not work. Their so called "high Interest" 4.25% savings account falls short of my 5% FDIC-insured savings account. No thanks, I'll stick with my Visa and my bank.

[John]

Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
interest?

[Thomas E.]

No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro chip model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model

Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.

[John]

LMAO!!!

[Thomas E.]

> > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.

> >
> > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> LMAO!!!

Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!

[John]

It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.

[Thomas E.]

LMAO: I have the 256 gb iPhone 14 Pro on an unlimited 5G plan, 256 gb iPad 9 with unlimited cellular service, and an Apple Watch also with unlimited cellular service. I also have a top-of-the-line Dell XPS that is quick and reliable, albeit battery life is nowhere near the MacBook Pro. The wife has a 256 gb iPhone 14 on an unlimited 5G plan and a 256 gb iPad on unlimited celluar service. She will not give up her Charge 5. She thinks the Apple Watch is too big for her wrist.

FYI only all the cell service and our home internet is on unlimited Verizon 5G at under $200 a month. All in, we are under $300 a month including streaming TV subscriptions. Equivalent cable TV alone in our area is over $250 a month.

Not having an Apple credit card is absolutely no barrier to owning Apple devices. Why do you think so? Are you so short on cash that you can't buy Apple devices without a year to pay them off with 0 interest? I just charge them and pay off the card on time. In fact, since I paid off our only debt, our mortgage, back in March 2003 I have paid about $15 in interest, and that only because I missed one card payment date. We pay cash or we don't buy it. That includes new automobiles, home remodels,

I repeat, LMAO.

[WolfFan]

On Nov 29, 2023, Thomas E. wrote
(in article<60c525db-7865-41b2...@googlegroups.com>):

Tim Cook was smarter than whoever GS had on charge of the project.

[John]

LMAO!!!

[John]

All I can do is laugh at such poor financial management.

[Thomas E.]

Goldman was apparently anxious to get in the consumer finance business and Apple must have looked like an attractive partner. But, they gave away way too much. Word is that Goldman is also trying to back away from other deals in that space, including

GM https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2023-11-07/goldman-sachs-plans-to-offload-gm-credit-card-source

[Thomas E.]

Really? How much did it cost me a year ago to pay with my credit card instead of the Apple card? My iPhone Pro, after trade cost, about $1,000 last November. There is the 1 point difference in rebate, so there is $10. My opportunity cost of cash a year ago was the 2% rebate I was earning on my money market account. But, if making monthly payments, the average balance on $1,000 is $500, so another $10. If paid off in in full in 12 months, $20. So, $30 max. That is about a tank of gas spread over 365 days, or 8 cents a day. Not material to my standard of living.

What is your other credit card that earns more than 1% on everything outside the 3% Apple and extremely limited 2% rebates for other payments? If it's not at least 2% that is VERY poor financial management. If it's more than 2% let me know and I'll switch.

[-hh]

So this $2306 represents the 2% cash back on .. oh, $115,300 spent on that one card?

Guess congratulations are in order for pushing to go so digital / cashless in the USA.
BTW, what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC, such as for
Municipal government, local businesses, etc? I’ve found these to often be 2% or more,
which results in a negative net sum.


-hh

[Thomas E.]

Do you really think I would ever use that card when a surcharge would occur? No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments. No local businesses I know charge for credit card use. That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...

[-hh]

Based on your prior financial statements, yes.

> No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for
> property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use
> ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments.

Some are worse than others. Motor vehicle service is an example.

> No local businesses I know charge for credit card use.

Have you actually asked?

Look for the subtle ‘cash or card?’ before they tell you how much.
I’ve noticed that most of the small businesses here have done so.
And that’s in addition to the guilt-tripping to add a tip.

> That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...

What credit card company uses an 18 month default period?
All of the ones I’ve had who routinely provide summaries are annual.


-hh

[Thomas E.]

My Honda dealer and oil change businesses don't offer cash discounts. Neither does my car and home insurance provider. About the only places around here that do offer cash discounts are gas stations, and that's generally just 1% or so. We buy all gas at Costco anyway. If I had a Costco card I could get 4% cash back on gas, but I get 2% anyway. They also offer 3% back on travel and restaurants. Not worth the bother.

I ignore the tip offer unless I would have tipped anyway.

What do I do by ACH for a discount? Verizon, the Viking cruise we just bought (3% rebate), property taxes, income taxes, utilities, Netflix and the flying club (it's ACH only).

18 month default? WTF are you talking about? That about my monthly average spending on the Visa card. I pay it off every month. I've never defaulted on any debt.

Your are not very smart are you?

[-hh]

> My Honda dealer and oil change businesses don't offer cash discounts.

Shouldn’t it still be under warranty? How much are you spending on just your car?

> Neither does my car and home insurance provider.

Surcharge or not, do they even accept credit cards for payments?
Actual credit, not debit card, as that has far fewer consumer protections.

> About the only places around here that do offer cash discounts are gas
> stations, and that's generally just 1% or so. We buy all gas at Costco anyway.
> If I had a Costco card I could get 4% cash back on gas, but I get 2% anyway.
> They also offer 3% back on travel and restaurants. Not worth the bother.
>
> I ignore the tip offer unless I would have tipped anyway.
>
> What do I do by ACH for a discount? Verizon, the Viking cruise we just bought

> ( 3% rebate), property taxes, income taxes, utilities, Netflix and the flying club (it's ACH only).

Because that’s a debit transaction, not credit.

> 18 month default? WTF are you talking about? That about my monthly average
> spending on the Visa card. I pay it off every month. I've never defaulted on any debt.
>
> Your are not very smart are you?

“ Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, …”
Clarified later as:
“That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...”

If it had been annual, it would be just ~$1537 (2% of $76,866, which is $6400/mo)
instead $2306 as 2% of $115.3K. Why don’t you just try a bigger brag attempt by
using a three or five year rebate accumulation?

-hh

[Thomas E.]

There you go again, making assumptions with no basis in facts. My car is out of warranty, but more to the point the wife's CRV is a 2015 getting close to 100k. We had an $1,800 engine problem, and yes the dealer took my credit card. Other than that we do all our routine maintenance at a dealer. I also just replaced the Accord's OEM tires at 40k miles and paid with a credit card.

That's right, the flying club and county government do not get charged for anyone's payments. But guess what, most businesses do.

Yes, Allstate accepts credit cards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hId3pRCATfW7hY7Rh5mDmrRl_dGYkXbG/view?usp=sharing

The $6,000 number refers to recent monthly Visa spend rate to get the rebates. Obviously, you idiot.

As for a longer time period, I could do that. The current Visa card is a switch from 2% cash back Mastercard that happened about 18 months ago. The Mastercard rebates go back to early 2018, 5+ years ago. Why switch? Costco does not take Mastercard, and we shop there. I had a Visa as a backup that was used at Costco, but it only pays 1.5%. So I switched, mainly to consolidate everything on a single card.

Do you use a cash-back credit card? Free and tax free money is a good thing. Especially when you have the discipline and ability to totally avoid interest and late charges. :)

[-hh]

What you’ve been describing is a riskless arbitrage - the financial equivalent of
a perpetual motion machine. That’s why I commented.

> My car is out of warranty, but more to the point the wife's CRV is a 2015 getting
> close to 100k. We had an $1,800 engine problem, and yes the dealer took my credit card.

Ah, so it was a repair on your wife’s older car that you’re taking 2% credit for.
Check.

> That's right, the flying club and county government do not get charged for
> anyone's payments. But guess what, most businesses do.

Which merely narrows where you might apply your arbitrage attempt.

> Yes, Allstate accepts credit cards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hId3pRCATfW7hY7Rh5mDmrRl_dGYkXbG/view?usp=sharing

Ok. Of course, these are typically offered in conjunction with “easy payment plans”
which commonly contain higher net annualized rates. Opting for multiple payments
may make sense to consider in a high interest rate environment, but we’ve not been
in that sort of fiscal situation in the US for nearly thirty years (and the supplier can also
just adjust the effective finance rate).

In any event, we’ve been using a Mutual, so we classically get an end-of-FY rebate of ~10%.

> The $6,000 number refers to recent monthly Visa spend rate to get the rebates. Obviously, you idiot.

Except that $115,300 over just 12 months would have been a ~$10K/month burn rate.

> As for a longer time period, I could do that. The current Visa card is a switch from 2%
> cash back Mastercard that happened about 18 months ago.

An admission that your use of the 18 month timescale was effectively arbitrary on your part:

> The Mastercard rebates go back to early 2018, 5+ years ago.

And other cash-backs - even if you didn’t personally employ them - go back many more years.

> Do you use a cash-back credit card?

Of course .. but only when it makes sense to do so. When there’s the likes of a 2%-3% CC
surcharge, i’ll pay cash. I’ll also offer to not use CCs with established small business
relationships I have on larger purchases even when there is no surcharge, as it puts a more
money into their pockets, such as when buying a full set of car tires (Diane says that her
husband doesn’t need free doughnuts!).

> Free and tax free money is a good thing. Especially when you have the discipline
> and ability to totally avoid interest and late charges. :)

Except for how it isn’t tax free, of course. Maybe you’ll figure it out someday.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

You just dreamed up 12 months. Quote "Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months"

18 months was not arbitrary, it was just the time after I switched to Visa from MC. It's easy to look up in Quicken when you record Rebate in the credit card records.

Just for fun, with complete data from 11/1/18 to date our total card rebates were $9,246. That almost paid for our auto fuel expenses.

I can't think of a single merchant I deal with here that routinely offers cash discounts. The merchant pays about 3%-3.5%, so even if they give all to you the difference from a 2% rebate is tiny. You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway? Heck it's getting hard to pay with actual money in some cases. I recently went to a local bank to get cash from an ATM. I did not see an ATM, so I asked the teller where it was located. I learned that this branch has no ATM because it has no cash in the building.

Where on my income tax forms do I enter "rebate income"? Unless you mean that I pay sale tax on the full amount and get a very small rebate on sales tax that a cash discount does not pay. So what does that amount to? We will assume my state 7% sales tax and a 2% cash discount.

100 + 7% = 107, 2% rebate is 2.14, net cost 104.76
98 + 7% = 104.86

Difference is 0.10, or ~0.1%, $462 on the total card purchase rebates we received since late 2018. But that assumes that we could negoiate a 2% cash discount with the likes of Kroger, Amazon, WalMart, Costco, Hilton, Penske Honda, Allstate, doctors, online merchants, restaurants, Lowes, Home Depot, out-of-town gas stations, hotels, etc. and so on. Either not feasible, or not worth the hassle to me. I have the Target 5% off card too.

LOL

Unless you can get more than 2% off for cash, like I did with the Viking Cruises offer, the difference is minor. Which is why I took Viking up on the offer. I have the Target 5% off card too.

Finally how does this make sense: "I’ll also offer to not use CCs with established small business

relationships I have on larger purchases even when there is no surcharge, as it puts a more

money into their pockets, such as when buying a full set of car tires."

If they give you a discount for cash how is that putting more money in their pocket? If you really want to put more money in their pockets pay cash or with a debit card on list price! They avoid the CC charge and you pay only full price. That would really help them out.

[-hh]

No, I simply know that CCs provide annual summary statements…which you deviated from.

> 18 months was not arbitrary, it was just the time after I switched to Visa from MC. It's easy
> to look up in Quicken when you record Rebate in the credit card records.

And Quicken doesn’t have an “Annual Summary”?

>
> Just for fun, with complete data from 11/1/18 to date our total card rebates were
> $9,246. That almost paid for our auto fuel expenses.

Five year summary at 2% means ~$92K/yr total cash flow based on what you’ve been claiming.

> I can't think of a single merchant I deal with here that routinely offers cash discounts.

Then you simply don't commonly do business with small owner operated establishments.

> The merchant pays about 3%-3.5%,..

To the credit card, plus another fee to the processor.
Plus potentially also a monthly rental fee for equipment.
It all adds up.

FYI, I just got a flier from one and it noted a 4% cash discount.
So do I pay 4% more by CC to get 2% back for a 102% net, or just pay
4% less by using cash?

> .. so even if they give all to you the difference from a 2% rebate is tiny.

Oh, so 4%-2% = nothing, but 2% is significant? Same basic magnitude.

> You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores,
> restaurant chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

All of which are chains, whereas I’d already noted small local businesses. Fail.

> Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?

A reasonable point, for one can often save more by shopping around, such as repairing a
an out of warranty car at an independent garage vs Dealership to save 10-20% (or more).

But the real point is that it’s not that I’m haggling: this is simply relating how the local small
business merchants are working on their own to be a good value to their customers.

> Where on my income tax forms do I enter "rebate income"? Unless…

Nope. Start with where you purchased using pre-tax dollars instead of post tax.

> Finally how does this make sense: "I’ll also offer to not use CCs with established small business
> relationships I have on larger purchases even when there is no surcharge, as it puts a more
> money into their pockets, such as when buying a full set of car tires."
>
> If they give you a discount for cash how is that putting more money in their pocket? If you really
> want to put more money in their pockets pay cash or with a debit card on list price! They avoid
> the CC charge and you pay only full price. That would really help them out.

No surcharge. I paid full price w/check, which gives them an extra ~4% and the cost delta to me
is minorAFAIC. In return, I’ve occasionally gotten free tire puncture repairs, etc: just one of those
alone retails locally for $80, so at your 2%, that’s equivalent to $4,000 worth of credit card charges.
Another was a windshield replacement whose labor wasn’t increased when they ran into problems:
I got +3 hours of free labor (at $120/hr, no less). That’s why I chose to use them for my 2022 restore.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

3.5% pretty much covers the top end. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/
If there is a monthly rental fee that's a fixed cost to be incurred if you take cards.

OK, I think I'm on to something else here. You cite a few cherry-picked items, and I could too. But more importantly you never mentioned an important advantage to the merchant. Cash is not traceable. Cash can be used to avoid sales and income taxes. Or, for money laundering. Unless you meant checks, and that's a different matter. Checks don't offer the same fraud protections that credit card companies provide.

You still don't get it. Rebates are cash back, not income that is taxed, and substitutes for taxable income.

You don't get something else either. It's not about maximizing, it's about optimizing. For me optimum includes not carrying much cash, as few cards as possible, or a checkbook. It includes not spending time negotiating with local businesses. It includes the peace of mind knowing if I get scammed the credit card company has my back.

So, go forth and negotiate. I have a Christmas party to attend in an hour from now.

[Thomas E.]

And by the way, if you pay with a check it's not a cash, or even money, payment. In an economics context cash and money have very specific and narrow meanings:

cash
NOUN
money in coins or notes, as distinct from checks, money orders, or credit:
"the staff were paid in cash" · "a discount for cash"

money
NOUN
a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes; coins and banknotes collectively:
"I counted the money before putting it in my wallet" · "he borrowed money to modernize the store"

By definition money has three functions: In an economic context, money is a commodity that is:

1. Widely accepted as a medium of exchange for goods and services
2. The primary measure of value and used to express prices and values
3. A store of value and unit of account

A check is a promise that you can pay from your checking account and your bank will transfer funds from your account to the holder's account. Until the process is finished the payee is not paid. The payee is not obligated to accept a check. But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private." It's printed right there on our money.
For obvious reasons a credit card is not money or cash.

[-hh]

In the meantime, you’re trying to say that 2% is profound, while 1.5% (3.5%-2%) isn’t.

> OK, I think I'm on to something else here. You cite a few cherry-picked items, and I could too.

Nah, you invariably start with cherry-picking. I gave basic principles with examples.

> But more importantly you never mentioned an important advantage to the merchant. Cash is
> not traceable. Cash can be used to avoid sales and income taxes. Or, for money laundering.
> Unless you meant checks, and that's a different matter.

True, there is the cash economy aspect where it can go un/underreported, but there’s
also CC fraud & theft too. I’ve had to have several CCs replaced because of such thefts.
One .. very long time ago .. was someone who used my [card brand] in Germany to buy
$3K worth of airline tickets to fly from Canada to Cuba(!). Was fun explaining that one
to the Security office at work!

> Checks don't offer the same fraud protections that credit card companies provide.

Nor do your debt card transfers.

> You still don't get it. Rebates are cash back, not income that is taxed, and substitutes for taxable income.

No, you’re missing that the money used for the purchase transaction was already taxed,
so that’s why the discount doesn’t count as income a second time.

> You don't get something else either. It's not about maximizing, it's about optimizing.
> For me optimum includes not carrying much cash, as few cards as possible, or a checkbook.

For which you’re jumping through hoops to have this MC, that Visa card, plus Target CC…etc
That’s additional complexity which has overhead & a management expense for you.

> It includes not spending time negotiating with local businesses.

Negotiate? Just picked up a pizza and was asked “Cash or Card, hon?”
before I was told what the price was: this is how I know that they’re adding
a CC surcharge even without looking for a sign or asking.

> It includes the peace of mind knowing if I get scammed the credit card company has my back.

Because one really really needs that protection when the product is in hand..?

> So, go forth and negotiate. I have a Christmas party to attend in an hour from now.

Wear a mask, as rates are increasing faster this year and indications are that there’s now a
pneumonia related to the lung damage & reduced immune system from prior covid infections.
I’ve been out twice since Thanksgiving & did my 2nd “N days later” test (negative, again) today.
Even so, I have a Plaxovid script already filled, just in case.

-hh

[ed]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private." It's printed right there on our money.

what law would that be?

There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.

there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71

[-hh]

This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.

Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:

True, but my point was that checks and credit cards are not cash. The other options mentioned are of course also government-backed and can be readily converted to cash. Stocks, private bonds, real property, etc. have value too. But they are not money either.

[Thomas E.]

Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal. Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.

I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open. Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live. Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash? I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying cash or a checkbook everywhere. An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.

[-hh]

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > >
> > > what law would that be?
> > >
> > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > >
> > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> >
> > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> >
>

> Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.

Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.

> Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.

Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.

> I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.

Read further down on your same page & add.

> Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.

Which is sheltered within large chains.

> Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?

That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.

> I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> cash or a checkbook everywhere.

The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.

> An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.

As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%. I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card. I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store. This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases. My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point. You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.

So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might be able to negotiate with. A few local restaurants, the dry cleaner, some purchases at local events etc. Not many, but an artist that was having a bad day at an art fair sold us a painting at a substantial cash discount and threw in the frame.

By the way, there is risk in every transaction we make, even for cash.

[-hh]

Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.

> I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.

Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?

> I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.

It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.

> This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.

Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
with your comment being:

“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”

The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.

> You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.

Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.

> So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might

> be able to negotiate with. …

Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.

In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.

Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>

One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

The offer was 3% for ACH or full price on a card. That was it, cash was not an option. Businesses build credit card fees into their pricing. I'm not costing them anything. As for the Target card that's a debit from my checking account. No extra bother at all. It's not a separate account to track, that's one reason I have it.

[Thomas E.]

The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.

You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?

Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number there it was an example, not an actual organization site. The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even close to that number, and there is no alternative offered!

Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.

I'm finding out that you are an even bigger liar than Alan Baker!

[-hh]

> The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.

Nope, it is this thread.

> You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?

False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"

FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:

"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant

chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"

> Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> there it was an example, not an actual organization site.

Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:

<https://mmsc.org>

> The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> close to that number,

Because you've never bothered to have looked.

> ... and there is no alternative offered!

Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.

> Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.

No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.

Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.

You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.

[-hh]

It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>

>
> Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.

I already told you: continue to scroll down.

> You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.

They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming. Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.

[-hh]

> > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> >
> > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > >
> > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> >
> > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> >
> > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> >
> > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> >
>

> Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.

I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.

Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.

> Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.

Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:

<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>

TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:

Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees


-hh

[Thomas E.]

In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point vs. credit card pops up. When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.

[-hh]

> In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> vs. credit card pops up.

Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.

And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.

Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.

> When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.

Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount? Tax dodging? If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card, but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point. Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.

My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.

I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income. Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming process and I have to tell the company about my contributions. Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!

I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time. I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.

My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December. That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023 and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered, filled out and filed either!

As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card fees into their pricing.

[-hh]

> $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?

More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.

> Tax dodging?

Nope.

> If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
> on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
> recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
> but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
> Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.

And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.

> My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
> quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
> on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
> to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
> the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
> checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.

Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.

> I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
> funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.

Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.

> Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
> cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
> process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.

Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.

> Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
> small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
> probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!

Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.

> I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
> I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
> important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
> all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.

I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.

> My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
> That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
> and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
> filled out and filed either!

A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.

> As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
> get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
> difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
> fees into their pricing.

As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud. I have been with them for almost 50 years. As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift. My former employer has a site for that that takes just a few seconds to send a request. I pay by credit card for my HVAC service. We recently replaced our thermostat and then one day a month later the heat pump was not running, we were on emergency power. The tech could have lied and told us the compressor had died. Instead he found that an outside temperature limit setting in the new thermostat was responsible, and changed it. This unit is 16 years old, and I would have believed it was time to get a new one.

If they don't take Apple Pay pulling out the card and tapping or inserting seems to also work pretty reliably. :) The vast majority of businesses around here take cards, and increasingly Apple Pay.

If you are 52 then you obviously have a very different set of concerns! My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely. There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.

[-hh]

> LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
> I have been with them for almost 50 years.

The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.

> As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.

Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.

> If you are 52 then …

...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.

> … you obviously have a very different set of concerns!

Such as getting my own age correct? /s

> My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
> There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
> expenses 20 years from now.

Already running the models out to 2065.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

Right, you are 62. The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.

Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions. Better be updating every year!

[-hh]

> Right, you are 62.

Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.

> The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
> simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.

Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.

> Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.

A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.

> Better be updating every year!

Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.

-hh

[-hh]

Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:

< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>

< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>

-hh

[Thomas E.]

That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare. I have different goals involving those who will receive my estate who will cash out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.

[-hh]

> That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.

Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.

> I have different goals ...

Of course you do, because everyone is different.

> ... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash

> out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.

The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.

Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.

And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the
traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.

But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations. I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up. This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?

[-hh]

> Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
> for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
> I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
>This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?

Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.

[-hh]

> You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.

No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
the charity, but doing so in a more tax-efficient manner. Go ask your financial planner.

-hh

[Thomas E.]

I work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizations annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out, re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?

[-hh]

> I work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizations
> annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out,
> re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?

When it comes to Estate Planning, yeah you can do better than Net 0%. As I said, ask your FA.


-hh

[Thomas E.]

Really, you can get the IRS to contribute too?

[-hh]

> Really, you can get the IRS to contribute too?

Sort of. It’s the method where one can capture the tax deduction of giving to a charity, while
the charity still gets the full amount. The tax savings makes it add up to more than 100%.
If your FA is so good, they who have already pointed out this as part of Estate Planning.

-hh