Digg spurns Google for young Microsoft ..
Doug Mentohl
to go,"
"They're a young ad service, they're innovative, they're willing to work
with us on the cutting edge."
http://snipurl.com/1os5r
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Digg-fires-Google-hires-Microsoft-for-online-advertising/2007/07/26/1185339120973.html
--
who said Americans don't get irony ..
Oldtech
> "We at Digg couldn't think of a better partner to get to where we need
> to go,"
>
> "They're a young ad service, they're innovative, they're willing to work
> with us on the cutting edge."
>
> http://snipurl.com/1os5r
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Digg-fires-Google-hires-Microsoft-for-online-advertising/2007/07/26/1185339120973.html
>
>
'partners' money can buy! After the 'partners' are used up, Microsoft
finds new ones. "Dog eat Dog world", you know.
Roy Schestowitz
Digg has _a lot_ of content that slams Microsoft, promotes Linux, hails Apple,
and so forth. Microsoft would love to have some control over parts of these
pages.
Digg is no place for Microsoft fans. Digg is a place where technologists reside
and they see (and know) beyond that kissie-kissie Bill Gates stuff that
invaded mainstream press.
Rest assured Microsoft will pollute Digg with its disinformation. I have
written to their staff about it, so hopefully someone will take notice.
--
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | Useless fact: penguins are the greatest birds
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
waterskidoo
>
> Digg has _a lot_ of content that slams Microsoft, promotes Linux, hails Apple,
> and so forth. Microsoft would love to have some control over parts of these
> pages.
>
> Digg is no place for Microsoft fans. Digg is a place where technologists reside
> and they see (and know) beyond that kissie-kissie Bill Gates stuff that
> invaded mainstream press.
>
> Rest assured Microsoft will pollute Digg with its disinformation. I have
> written to their staff about it, so hopefully someone will take notice.
For advertising space I would agree with you but how is Microsoft going
to censor people's opinions?
If anything, being officially involved with Digg, would be detrimental
to Microsoft *stuffing the ballot box* so to speak.
Microsoft would be better off hiring a herd of astroturfers to
seed Digg's discussions whilst distancing themselves from
Digg officially.
Don't get me wrong, I smell a rat, a big bloated rat that
wears funny glasses but I'm not sure how advertising space
would alter digg's opinion based content, ie:discussions.
Roy Schestowitz
Some argue that Microsoft has been astroturfing Digg for about a year. This
drove away some regulars who like Free software. I'm still wondering who is
patient enough to go through ~50 comments of mine every day and mod them down
systematically. Unless they get paid, this takes a lot of perseverance.
...Not to mention someone who rated about 1500 of my messages in Google Group
to game the system and lower me from 4/5 to 2/5.
I don't think these people are with Microsoft (it's probably loyalty, not
finance), but Microsoft has been caught gaming polls in the past, using its
employees. It did not have to issue any 'orders', but it also does not control
its employees, who have been caught attacking bloggers anonymously.
--
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | Download Reversi: http://othellomaster.com
http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
23:00:06 up 40 days, 4:28, 5 users, load average: 2.54, 2.04, 1.23
http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine
Tim Smith
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> wrote:
> Some argue that Microsoft has been astroturfing Digg for about a year. This
> drove away some regulars who like Free software. I'm still wondering who is
> patient enough to go through ~50 comments of mine every day and mod them down
> systematically. Unless they get paid, this takes a lot of perseverance.
Writing a comment is more work and takes more time than than digging a
comment down (even pasting the same comment into two or three stories is
more work), so if digging down 50 comments a day is enough effort to
indicate someone is getting paid, then so is *posting* 50 comments a day.
So, who pays you to post 50 comments a day on Digg? You've been quick
to accuse others of being paid shills, so it is only fair that you
disclose who you are paid to shill for.
--
--Tim Smith
![[H]omer's profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjWMQWyYwHeIwxhG3nGUeGWmLQD0R8TeZrvdWDiv5-2S_z3rHg=s40-c)
[H]omer
> "We at Digg couldn't think of a better partner to get to where we need
> to go,"
>
> "They're a young ad service, they're innovative, they're willing to work
> with us on the cutting edge."
>
> http://snipurl.com/1os5r
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Digg-fires-Google-hires-Microsoft-for-online-advertising/2007/07/26/1185339120973.html
Given the number of Microsoft Shills infesting Digg, this doesn't
surprise me at all.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
04:25:45 up 26 days, 3:20, 4 users, load average: 0.49, 0.53, 0.48
Roy Schestowitz
> Verily I say unto thee, that Doug Mentohl spake thusly:
>> "We at Digg couldn't think of a better partner to get to where we need
>> to go,"
>>
>> "They're a young ad service, they're innovative, they're willing to work
>> with us on the cutting edge."
>>
>> http://snipurl.com/1os5r
>>
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Digg-fires-Google-hires-Microsoft-for-online-advertising/2007/07/26/1185339120973.html
>
> Given the number of Microsoft Shills infesting Digg, this doesn't
> surprise me at all.
When Digg opened a "Microsoft" section, the number of submissions on that topic
went through the roof and I was no longer able to track any Microsoft news
there. There were lots of 'Microsoft fan' blogs.
Who advocates monopoly abusers without payments or without the chance of
receiving rewards? Microsoft has been caught giving prizes to those who engage
in grassroots stuff, in which case it's simply astroturfing. Reward follows
action, not vice versa, but it's essentially the same. They give the
impression and send the message that they will share money with those who do
marketing in disguise.
Last year, when 'redhatcat' left Digg he said that the place was getting filled
with Microsoft shills. I think he said this in one of the threads where people
attacked me /ad hominem/ (it happens almost every day now).
When I came to think about it, the shills won in a way. I no longer submit many
stories that criticise or expose Microsoft. When I did, then quite
immediately, the 'usual suspects' would strike within minutes or hours. You
can find like 10-30 comments on Comes vs Microsoft submissions that never even
made the front page (they got buried beforehand). Many of them still have PR5,
so a simply Google search leads to them (like a gateway to a PDF that cannot
be interpreted).
Now, don't get me wrong... I have no problem with stories getting buried for
being SPAM, inaccurate, or whatever. In this case, I simply quoted Microsoft
from a newly-revealed court exhibit. People liked it. People Dugg this very
quickly. How can this be buried? Microsoft has already buried oneenstire Web
site. Thanks goodness we have mirrors of the case in Iowa (however partial
they may be, since Microsoft settled within weeks and some 'laundry'). Now we
just need all of this in textual form. There's just too much of that.
Look at the number of pages here:
http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03096.pdf
That's just _one among thousands_. A lot of it is "criminal" material. Planet
Earth must see this. History needs it. This particular one that Nessuno pulled
a couple of weeks ago actually reached the attention of tens of thousands
(even if just the excerpt was read). I don't like the idea of Microsoft being
around Digg at this moment.
--
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | while (!0==1) echo 'Bill Gates' > /dev/null
http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Cpu(s): 27.1%us, 4.5%sy, 1.0%ni, 62.8%id, 4.2%wa, 0.3%hi, 0.2%si, 0.0%st
http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information
High Plains Thumper
> [H]omer on Friday :
>> Doug Mentohl spake:
>>
>>> "We at Digg couldn't think of a better partner to get to where we need
>>> to go,"
>>>
>>> "They're a young ad service, they're innovative, they're willing to
>>> work with us on the cutting edge."
>>>
>>> http://snipurl.com/1os5r
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Digg-fires-Google-hires-
>>> Microsoft-for-online-advertising/2007/07/26/1185339120973.html
>>
>> Given the number of Microsoft Shills infesting Digg, this doesn't
>> surprise me at all.
>
> When Digg opened a "Microsoft" section, the number of submissions on
> that topic went through the roof and I was no longer able to track any
> Microsoft news there. There were lots of 'Microsoft fan' blogs.
>
> Who advocates monopoly abusers without payments or without the chance of
> receiving rewards? Microsoft has been caught giving prizes to those who
> engage in grassroots stuff, in which case it's simply astroturfing.
> Reward follows action, not vice versa, but it's essentially the same.
> They give the impression and send the message that they will share money
> with those who do marketing in disguise.
This was the impression by one blogger:
http://marshallk.com/microsoft-wants-its-laptops-back
[quote]
The computer itself doesn't retail for $2k plus for nothing - it's fast.
Windows is so annoying and (to me, a Mac user) so counter-intuitive, that
I'd never buy a Windows machine. My partner won't touch the thing. I'm
going to set it up to look pretty, take incoming news as if it was the 2nd
half of a super large monitor and work on my Mac. Not that I'm super happy
with the crash-happy, Flash-hating Macbook I have either. (That said,
Parallels is a great program for testing Windows only applications.) See
also oops - no new podcasts caught by iTunes for a week.
Ultimately all these companies are probably a lot like cell phone
providers. Which is the least ugly one in the room? I wouldn't chose at
all if I didn't have to.
I can't believe they are telling me not to keep it now. What kind of
blogosphere reaction were they expecting?
[/quote]
> Last year, when 'redhatcat' left Digg he said that the place was getting
> filled with Microsoft shills. I think he said this in one of the threads
> where people attacked me /ad hominem/ (it happens almost every day now).
>
> When I came to think about it, the shills won in a way. I no longer
> submit many stories that criticise or expose Microsoft. When I did, then
> quite immediately, the 'usual suspects' would strike within minutes or
> hours. You can find like 10-30 comments on Comes vs Microsoft
> submissions that never even made the front page (they got buried
> beforehand). Many of them still have PR5, so a simply Google search
> leads to them (like a gateway to a PDF that cannot be interpreted).
It it interesting how the truth manages to still come through, which is
good, even though some intend to do actions to result in near censorship.
It sounds very much like the grass roots trolling done by Iomega employees
a decade ago. They were replying with bashes on blog sites where unhappy
campers with failed Iomega products were posting their complaints. I had
a failed 2GB Ditto tape backup unit, chucked it up as a loss and purchased
a surplus Conner 4GB one, which worked perfectly. I wrote of my
experiences of Iomega on the Ditto and received responses not different
from the troll responses in COLA.
> Now, don't get me wrong... I have no problem with stories getting buried
> for being SPAM, inaccurate, or whatever. In this case, I simply quoted
> Microsoft from a newly-revealed court exhibit. People liked it. People
> Dugg this very quickly. How can this be buried? Microsoft has already
> buried oneenstire Web site. Thanks goodness we have mirrors of the case
> in Iowa (however partial they may be, since Microsoft settled within
> weeks and some 'laundry'). Now we just need all of this in textual form.
> There's just too much of that.
>
> Look at the number of pages here:
>
> http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03096.pdf
>
> That's just _one among thousands_. A lot of it is "criminal" material.
> Planet Earth must see this. History needs it. This particular one that
> Nessuno pulled a couple of weeks ago actually reached the attention of
> tens of thousands (even if just the excerpt was read). I don't like the
> idea of Microsoft being around Digg at this moment.
It does make one wonder on intentions. Personally, I am for leaving the
Microsoft camp. I look at an operating system and application software as
a means to accomplish work, entertainment, information distro, etc. It is
not a religion. As Ernie Ball experienced freedom when he left the camp,
so will others.
--
HPT
Linonut
> This was the impression by one blogger:
>
> http://marshallk.com/microsoft-wants-its-laptops-back
Microsoft and AMD sent out a pile of very expensive (yet trashy
looking) laptops to a number of bloggers over the past week. We
were told we could keep them - now after a day of minor outrage by
some people they are emailing us back with the following request that
we not keep them after all! And to think, I almost smashed mine in
the middle of the street 10 minutes into trying to use it!
. . .
Ha ha ha - the snazzy laptop I got in the mail from Microsoft
yesterday was the only way I was ever going to use Vista anyway. And
I'm certainly never going to take a laptop with a stupid looking
Ferrari logo on the front anywhere but home and my cube at work.
Not only a Ferrari logo, but three (!) frickin' stickers on the right
wrist rest.
--
Windows computers: more logos than Jeff Gordon's jumpsuit
High Plains Thumper
> Ha ha ha - the snazzy laptop I got in the mail from Microsoft
> yesterday was the only way I was ever going to use Vista anyway. And
> I'm certainly never going to take a laptop with a stupid looking
> Ferrari logo on the front anywhere but home and my cube at work.
>
> Not only a Ferrari logo, but three (!) frickin' stickers on the right
> wrist rest.
Of course instead of smashing them, they'd make excellent Linux machines,
would they not? .... and stickers can be removed, too. Would that not
make a good describe on a blog? :-)
--
HPT
Riding since 1979. Current stable:
1987 Suzuki LS650 Savage
1971 Honda CB100
Erik Funkenbusch
> When I came to think about it, the shills won in a way. I no longer submit many
> stories that criticise or expose Microsoft. When I did, then quite
> immediately, the 'usual suspects' would strike within minutes or hours. You
> can find like 10-30 comments on Comes vs Microsoft submissions that never even
> made the front page (they got buried beforehand). Many of them still have PR5,
> so a simply Google search leads to them (like a gateway to a PDF that cannot
> be interpreted).
No, Roy. You are completely dense and unable to comprehend the truth.
The fact of the matter is, you made enemies on Digg. Lots of them.
Because you posted your usual fraudulent headlines and made inappropriate
and off-topic comments. Digg users don't like that, and they retaliated
against you. For example, when you accused a particular blogger of only
posting pro-microsoft stories when only a few of his hundreds of stories
were microsoft related.
You seem unable to understand how your attitude and actions cause people to
dislike you. You're only conclusion is that they must be paid shills,
because you can't conceive that people might not actually like what you
say, or how you say it, or the methods you use to say it.
Why don't you take a good hard look at yourself, your posting history, the
comments people have made to you, etc..
waterskidoo
I think it's human nature to assume that a person who posts a large
number of messages must have some ulterior motive.
This is especially true in the type of forums we are talking
about *advocacy, digg, etc.
Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
Toyota.
Kier
> I think it's human nature to assume that a person who posts a large
> number of messages must have some ulterior motive.
> This is especially true in the type of forums we are talking
> about *advocacy, digg, etc.
> Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
> messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
> Toyota.
And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
direction?
Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person with a
tail and horns.
--
Kier
an...@anon.com
>And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true,
>but I doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is.
>No one is surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff,
>against MS, so why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do
>likewise in the opposite direction?
>Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person
>with a tail and horns.
But we're talking about zealots. And the opinions of zealots are
absolutely worthless. Obviously some things done with linux are
better than the counterpart on windoze, and vice versa. A
reasonable linux fan is able to admit a linux weakness, take a look
at how a windoze solution solves the problem, and then work to make
linux better.
But the linux zealot, who comprise the largest proportion of the
moronic element that populates the linux newsgroups, will argue that
linux is superior in every way and within a paragraph or two of his
posting you realize that you have stumbled across yet another idiot
whose effective mission in life is to waste your time.
The linux zealot is the worst enemy linux can have. We shit hard on
the linux zealot. We ask him to open his mouth, we squat above him,
and we squeeze one off. Just for him. And the really hilarious
thing is that the linux zealot is so starved that he keeps coming
back for more and more and more.
cordially, as always,
rm
Linonut
> Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
> messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
> Toyota.
I went to a group for the Toyota Yaris (compact car). There were a few
"Don't buy this car, it is too small, you will be killed!" posts there.
Pretty funny.
I bought one, and I like it. No frills except a CD/MP3/AUX player and
bigger wheels. Great acceleration up to about 50 MPH, which covers most
of my driving. Still getting used to the feel of 1st and Reverse on it,
though. Wish I'd popped for the tachometer.
--
Tux rox!
waterskidoo
>
> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
> direction?
>
> Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person with a
> tail and horns.
I agree. There is no doubt that companies have shills that fluff the
forums, but I don't believe it is as widespread as some people
believe.
I try to either avoid the suspected shills all together or
give the benefit of doubt until proved otherwise.
waterskidoo
Does Penthouse still publish those readers forum letters?
You know, the ones with so called sexual encounters.
If so, I'd be willing to wager you could get yours
printed.
an...@anon.com
>I went to a group for the Toyota Yaris (compact car). There were a
>few "Don't buy this car, it is too small, you will be killed!"
>posts there. Pretty funny.
>I bought one, and I like it. No frills except a CD/MP3/AUX player
>and bigger wheels. Great acceleration up to about 50 MPH, which
>covers most of my driving. Still getting used to the feel of 1st
>and Reverse on it, though. Wish I'd popped for the tachometer.
Yeah, we bought the 2006 liftback with auto tran and the MP3 player.
Perfect car. We take it to the gas station once a month. And it's
actually classified as a "sub-compact." It's five or six thousand
less than a Smart Car and we can't see why anyone would really want
a Smart Car with the Yaris and the Honda Fit around.
But we got the tach for free. Don't know why we really need one
though, what with the auto tranny. And it has taken awhile to get
used to a "dashboard" located in the center of the car.
cordially, as always,
rm
Tim Smith
Linonut <lin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I bought one, and I like it. No frills except a CD/MP3/AUX player and
> bigger wheels. Great acceleration up to about 50 MPH, which covers most
> of my driving. Still getting used to the feel of 1st and Reverse on it,
> though. Wish I'd popped for the tachometer.
If a tachometer is extra, then it's probably best NOT to get it.
Instead, get one of these:
It will give you a tachometer, and a lot more.
--
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
> direction?
Well, Roy's theory is that there *aren't* any MS/Windows fans. The only
people who post or write anything positive about it are those who have
been paid to do so.
He has said this on Digg, where the majority of the users are using
Windows, and he wonders why a lot of them don't like him...
--
--Tim Smith
cc
wrote:
Ever consider that some of us Google Group users think your posts are
worthy of the 1 star? I can't say I've rated 1500 posts, but I have
rated some with incorrect subjects, off-topic posts, and general
stupidity, 1 star, just like I've given 5 to posts I feel deserve it.
It's our right as Google Groups users to rate posts as we see fit. If
someone actually liked your posts then surely they would rate them
higher.
Also, I thought you had killfiled all google posts, so why would you
care what you're rated? That's a rhetorical question, we all know why.
Roy Schestowitz
No, I never killfiled anything from G2. I just highlight it in blue because
it's often SPAM, especially in other newsgroups. I recently filtered Outlook
Express because the "Dr X" troll was nymshifting endlessly. He was abusive, so
I'm glad he's gone for now.
As for those 1500 rating that I spoke about, this happened in a matter of
weeks. Someone systematically rated every single message of line 1/5. It
happened at the beginning of the year, but I can't recall which month.
--
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | http://debian.org
http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
run-level 2 2007-06-16 18:32 last=
Erik Funkenbusch
>> ...Not to mention someone who rated about 1500 of my messages in Google Group
>> to game the system and lower me from 4/5 to 2/5.
>
> Ever consider that some of us Google Group users think your posts are
> worthy of the 1 star? I can't say I've rated 1500 posts, but I have
> rated some with incorrect subjects, off-topic posts, and general
> stupidity, 1 star, just like I've given 5 to posts I feel deserve it.
> It's our right as Google Groups users to rate posts as we see fit. If
> someone actually liked your posts then surely they would rate them
> higher.
The truly disturbing part, and the part that showcases Roy's
obsessive/compulsive nature is that he actually *knows* this. He tracks
everything that happens with his posts, anywhere he goes. I'm certain he
keeps a database of all this, along with his "lists" of those that are out
to get him.
I mean, come on. How would you even KNOW if someone had rated 1500 of your
posts unless you were being obsessed with your own words.
I think Roy believes history will show him to single handedly have made
linux a success.
Kier
> In article <pan.2007.07.27....@tiscali.co.uk>,
> Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
>> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
>> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
>> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
>> direction?
>
> Well, Roy's theory is that there *aren't* any MS/Windows fans. The only
If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
way to go about promoting Linux to them.
> people who post or write anything positive about it are those who have
> been paid to do so.
>
> He has said this on Digg, where the majority of the users are using
> Windows, and he wonders why a lot of them don't like him...
A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
It's time we as advocates got away from this kind of thinking. Yes,
Windows and MS have their faults, some of them large and glaring and in
great need of fixing. But pointing out faults and saying that anyone who
uses Windows is a shill or a fool isn't the way to attract people to Linux.
--
Kier
Hadron
Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
all about Roy.
> This is especially true in the type of forums we are talking
> about *advocacy, digg, etc.
> Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
> messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
> Toyota.
--
waterskidoo
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
> idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
> actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
> way to go about promoting Linux to them.
I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is
hugely popular and if not the most used legal download site
is certainly near the top of the list.
He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's all hype
in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
a fact.
Would Linux be a better choice?
Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the
person look silly.
> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
or Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot
often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
The Vista group seems to have a few of this type.
As an example, my friends like Windows and many of them
are power users who spend a lot of time pounding the keyboard.
They don't frequent Windows advocacy groups or blogs singing
hymns to Bill Gates. They just use the product and accept or
work around the faults. Some of them are getting into Linux now
and they seem to be liking it so who knows.
I think that the lack of traffic in the Windows advocacy groups
is an indicator of what I am saying.
> It's time we as advocates got away from this kind of thinking. Yes,
> Windows and MS have their faults, some of them large and glaring and in
> great need of fixing. But pointing out faults and saying that anyone who
> uses Windows is a shill or a fool isn't the way to attract people to Linux.
Well said.
waterskidoo
> Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
> all about Roy.
He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
*on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
advocacy group needs.
Apparently Roy is ruffling the feathers of people who have a
stake in the Windows vs Linux battle because he seems
to be a lightening rod for attacks which makes me wonder
what the motives of the people attacking him are.
Kier
> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>
>> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
>> idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
>> actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
>> way to go about promoting Linux to them.
>
> I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
> I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is
> hugely popular and if not the most used legal download site
> is certainly near the top of the list.
> He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's all hype
> in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
What does he hate about them? Design-wise, they are things of beuaty, and
the thumb-scroll-wheel is brilliant. Of course, there is and always will
be some element of hype, but I don't believe all their popularity can be
put down to that.
>
> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
> From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
> from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
> monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
> a fact.
> Would Linux be a better choice?
> Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
Likewise. It's just that Windows got there first, and has established
itself as a de-facto standard. Personally, I don't see Linux dislodging
Windows soon, if ever, what I thnk is more likely is that Windows use will
gradually decline in a natural way, of its own accord. Linux or some other
OS will equally gradually move in to fill the gaps.
> The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the
> person look silly.
>
>
>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
>> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
> or Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot
> often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
> The Vista group seems to have a few of this type.
I'm sure such people do exist, but not in the massive numbers some people
think.
> As an example, my friends like Windows and many of them
> are power users who spend a lot of time pounding the keyboard.
> They don't frequent Windows advocacy groups or blogs singing
> hymns to Bill Gates. They just use the product and accept or
> work around the faults. Some of them are getting into Linux now
> and they seem to be liking it so who knows.
> I think that the lack of traffic in the Windows advocacy groups
> is an indicator of what I am saying.
>
>> It's time we as advocates got away from this kind of thinking. Yes,
>> Windows and MS have their faults, some of them large and glaring and in
>> great need of fixing. But pointing out faults and saying that anyone who
>> uses Windows is a shill or a fool isn't the way to attract people to Linux.
>
> Well said.
Thanks.
--
Kier
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>
>> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
>> idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
>> actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
>> way to go about promoting Linux to them.
>
> I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
Why would anyone hate iTunes? It's much easier to use for playlists than
any Linux player I can think of. More importantly it has built in
normalization which no Linux player has afaik (I would gladly be
corrected on this one).
I can understand someone preferring, say, Amarok, but to "hate" iTunes
wreaks of the zealot to me.
> I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is
> hugely popular and if not the most used legal download site
> is certainly near the top of the list.
> He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's all hype
> in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
Aha. We are beginning to see a pattern. iPods, as their sales have
proven, are wonderfully designed and functional. Great devices and
continue to dominate the market.
> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
> From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
So does Linux. It's SW. All SW has problems. The slow and tortuous move
to ALSA as the sound architecture being one. The horrible support for
ATI cards being another. The total inability to use USB Wireless dongles
being another (or has that improved?).
> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
> from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
> monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
> a fact.
> Would Linux be a better choice?
> Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
Really? For the average desktop? Actually yes. I think it would (now)
too. But it's simply too late. It missed the boat. And why? Because
fools like Gregory Shearman didn't want to improve anything as it was
"good enough for them" 10 years ago. It took real people with real
foresight (people like Mark Shuttleworth) to see the potential and to
address the issues. And what do we find? Suddenly DELL is back to
shipping Linux (Ubuntu) boxes.
> The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the
> person look silly.
And so does predicting Windows demise and lying about the uptake in
Linux which is so common practice by the likes of Roy "spammer"
Schestowitz, Mark Kent, chrisv, AB, High Plains Rafael etc.
>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
>> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
Of course. But "ridiculous == normal" in COLA. It's the way.
The good thing about Kier is that he IS realistic most of the time.
>
> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
> or Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot
> often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
All zealots have an agenda. It's why they are zealots.
Kier
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
>> all about Roy.
>
> He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
> Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
> advocacy group needs.
I'm sure Roy means well. He just needs to be more stringent in checking
what he posts is accurate, and should make sure what is his personal
opinion is clearly diferentiated from what he is presenting as facts.
All of us here have the right to express our opinions, but they shouldn't
be confused with facts (even when they are in agreement, IMO).
> Apparently Roy is ruffling the feathers of people who have a
> stake in the Windows vs Linux battle because he seems
> to be a lightening rod for attacks which makes me wonder
> what the motives of the people attacking him are.
SOme just dislike him because he posts a lot. Well, if they don't care
for his posts, they should try killfiling him. He's advocating Linux,
which is what this group is for. Or they should challenge and refute what
he posts in the relevant threads. Some unfortunately prefer merely to
slander him without doing either.
--
Kier
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
>> all about Roy.
>
> He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
> Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
someone. Really.
> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
> advocacy group needs.
No. That is exactly the sort of poster that advocacy does not
need. There are billions of people happily using Windows. To call them
"stupid" and to claim that their OS "doesn't work" just frightens them
off as it DOES work for them.
> Apparently Roy is ruffling the feathers of people who have a
> stake in the Windows vs Linux battle because he seems
> to be a lightening rod for attacks which makes me wonder
> what the motives of the people attacking him are.
People don't attack Roy. They just point out his lies and
inconsistencies. Roy is the one on the attack. just read some of his
anti MS tirades if you don't believe me. Don't get sucked in. Roy is all
about hit count and advertising revenue. He's also a dreamer. Here:
Don't hold your coffee near your keyboard when you try out the
prototype....
waterskidoo
>
> What does he hate about them? Design-wise, they are things of beuaty, and
> the thumb-scroll-wheel is brilliant. Of course, there is and always will
> be some element of hype, but I don't believe all their popularity can be
> put down to that.
He doesn't like the fact that it is tied to iTunes and claims
it is a piece of over priced junk. It's interesting
because he has never owned one.
waterskidoo
>
> I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
> motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
> pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
> someone. Really.
Castrate someone?
Do you have any proof of this?
>> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
>> advocacy group needs.
>
> No. That is exactly the sort of poster that advocacy does not
> need. There are billions of people happily using Windows. To call them
> "stupid" and to claim that their OS "doesn't work" just frightens them
> off as it DOES work for them.
I don't see Roy calling people stupid for asking Linux questions.
He seems very polite to me and as for his dislike of Microsoft,
yea he's a little over the top but I took a look at the
boycott Novell site and Roy makes a lot of points for discussion.
I don't agree with everything he says, but much of it seems
reasonable to me.
>
> People don't attack Roy. They just point out his lies and
> inconsistencies. Roy is the one on the attack. just read some of his
> anti MS tirades if you don't believe me. Don't get sucked in. Roy is all
> about hit count and advertising revenue. He's also a dreamer. Here:
I think he makes some good points and some not so good points.
Nobody is perfect but Roy is entitled to his opinion just like
the rest of us.
Why not just score him down if you don't like reading his posts?
> http://www.iuron.com
>
> Don't hold your coffee near your keyboard when you try out the
> prototype....
I tried to build a ship in a bottle once.
It was a work in progress as I fondly called it.
FWIW, it's still a work in progress, 25 years later.
With all of Roy's advocacy I'm impressed that he has
the time to eat let alone code!
[H]omer
> He doesn't like the fact that it is tied to iTunes and claims
> it is a piece of over priced junk. It's interesting
> because he has never owned one.
I own one, and no I don't think they're junk, but they are overpriced
(as most Apple products are - except possibly Mac OS X).
I also think the iTMS is over-hyped, iTunes itself is a nasty piece of
unstable Bloatware (on the Windows platform at least), and that the
whole concept of DRM is fundamentally immoral.
But the iPod, as a piece of hardware, is quite nice. I just wish it
played Ogg Vorbis and Theora files, then I wouldn't need to spend hours
transcoding multimedia to non-Free formats in order to view them on the
iPod.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
17:16:34 up 27 days, 16:10, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.17, 0.19
Rick
> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>
>>> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like
>>> the idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows,
>>> but actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the
>>> wrong way to go about promoting Linux to them.
>>
>> I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
>
> Why would anyone hate iTunes?
Why don't you ask the person that "hates" iTunes. There are people with
different tastes than you, you know.
> It's much easier to use for playlists than
> any Linux player I can think of. More importantly it has built in
> normalization which no Linux player has afaik (I would gladly be
> corrected on this one).
>
> I can understand someone preferring, say, Amarok, but to "hate" iTunes
> wreaks of the zealot to me.
It is a phrase, jerk.
>
>> I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is hugely
>> popular and if not the most used legal download site is certainly near
>> the top of the list. He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's
>> all hype in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
>
> Aha. We are beginning to see a pattern. iPods, as their sales have
> proven, are wonderfully designed and functional. Great devices and
> continue to dominate the market.
iTunes and iPods sell each other. Apparently Apple is hoping iTunes/iPods
will sell more Macs.
>
>> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user. From a
>> design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
>
> So does Linux. It's SW. All SW has problems. The slow and tortuous move
> to ALSA as the sound architecture being one. The horrible support for
> ATI cards being another. The total inability to use USB Wireless dongles
> being another (or has that improved?).
You mean you don't know? Wow.
>
>> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users from
>> happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses monitoring
>> critical devices and collecting data and that's a fact.
>> Would Linux be a better choice?
>> Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
>
> Really? For the average desktop? Actually yes. I think it would (now)
> too. But it's simply too late. It missed the boat. And why? Because
> fools like Gregory Shearman didn't want to improve anything as it was
> "good enough for them" 10 years ago. It took real people with real
> foresight (people like Mark Shuttleworth) to see the potential and to
> address the issues. And what do we find? Suddenly DELL is back to
> shipping Linux (Ubuntu) boxes.
So, is it your position that Anaconda has never improved? Or Mandriva's
installer? Or Suse's? Are you saying Ubuntu is the only distro with
improved installers and user friendliness?
>
>> The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the person look
>> silly.
>
> And so does predicting Windows demise and lying about the uptake in
> Linux which is so common practice by the likes of Roy "spammer"
> Schestowitz, Mark Kent, chrisv, AB, High Plains Rafael etc.
Speaking of lies, when are are you going to provide quotes of my supposed
lies?
>
>>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all
>>> have to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Of course. But "ridiculous == normal" in COLA. It's the way.
That may be true. After all, you post here.
>
> The good thing about Kier is that he IS realistic most of the time.
>
>
>> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple or
>> Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot often I get the
>> feeling that this person has an agenda.
>
> All zealots have an agenda. It's why they are zealots.
You should know.
--
Rick
Rick
> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
>>> all about Roy.
>>
>> He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to
>> dislike Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
>
> I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
> motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
> pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
> someone. Really.
What did he plagarize? Who did he scare away from Linux? Do you even know
what a pathological hatred is? In what post did he threaten to castrate
someone?
>
>> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
>> advocacy group needs.
>
> No. That is exactly the sort of poster that advocacy does not need.
... in YOUR opinion.
> There are billions of people happily using Windows. To call them
> "stupid" and to claim that their OS "doesn't work" just frightens them
> off as it DOES work for them.
... depending on your definition of "work for them".
>
>> Apparently Roy is ruffling the feathers of people who have a stake in
>> the Windows vs Linux battle because he seems to be a lightening rod for
>> attacks which makes me wonder what the motives of the people attacking
>> him are.
>
> People don't attack Roy. They just point out his lies and
> inconsistencies. Roy is the one on the attack. just read some of his
Your first paragraph above isn't an attack on Roy?
> anti MS tirades if you don't believe me. Don't get sucked in. Roy is all
> about hit count and advertising revenue. He's also a dreamer. Here:
>
> http://www.iuron.com
>
> Don't hold your coffee near your keyboard when you try out the
> prototype....
--
Rick
Hadron
And also that he's talking shit. I used Linux apps to organise my iPod.
Kier
I think the tie to iTunes, though understandable from Apple's point of
view, could do with being loosened. I would say they are particularly
over priced, given how well-designed they are. It's certainly not junk.
--
Kier
Rick
How well did it connect to the Apple Music Store under Linux?
What did you use to generate playlists?
--
Rick
Kier
> But the iPod, as a piece of hardware, is quite nice. I just wish it
> played Ogg Vorbis and Theora files, then I wouldn't need to spend hours
> transcoding multimedia to non-Free formats in order to view them on the
> iPod.
That would be one of my greatest points against owning one. But then it's
the same with Archos players (although you can buy a plugin which will let
you play .ogg, which is something at least, though I'd sooner not have to
spend extra money for that).
--
Kier
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
>> motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
>> pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
>> someone. Really.
>
> Castrate someone?
> Do you have any proof of this?
Yes. On Roy's own server :
http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00507.html
>
>
>>> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
>>> advocacy group needs.
>>
>> No. That is exactly the sort of poster that advocacy does not
>> need. There are billions of people happily using Windows. To call them
>> "stupid" and to claim that their OS "doesn't work" just frightens them
>> off as it DOES work for them.
>
> I don't see Roy calling people stupid for asking Linux questions.
> He seems very polite to me and as for his dislike of Microsoft,
> yea he's a little over the top but I took a look at the
> boycott Novell site and Roy makes a lot of points for discussion.
> I don't agree with everything he says, but much of it seems
> reasonable to me.
Oh dear.
>
>
>>
>> People don't attack Roy. They just point out his lies and
>> inconsistencies. Roy is the one on the attack. just read some of his
>> anti MS tirades if you don't believe me. Don't get sucked in. Roy is all
>> about hit count and advertising revenue. He's also a dreamer. Here:
>
> I think he makes some good points and some not so good points.
> Nobody is perfect but Roy is entitled to his opinion just like
> the rest of us.
> Why not just score him down if you don't like reading his posts?
I have.
>
>
>> http://www.iuron.com
>>
>> Don't hold your coffee near your keyboard when you try out the
>> prototype....
>
> I tried to build a ship in a bottle once.
> It was a work in progress as I fondly called it.
> FWIW, it's still a work in progress, 25 years later.
> With all of Roy's advocacy I'm impressed that he has
> the time to eat let alone code!
You mean with all Roy's spam?
Kier
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:46:52 +0000, waterskidoo wrote:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> view, could do with being loosened. I would say they are particularly
Bugger! 'I *wouldn't* say', is what I meant to say!
--
Kier
Kier
> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> I think he makes some good points and some not so good points.
>> Nobody is perfect but Roy is entitled to his opinion just like
>> the rest of us.
>> Why not just score him down if you don't like reading his posts?
>
> I have.
Then why not shut up about him? You keep dragging him into everything, and
insulting him, then wonder why others dislike *you*, not Roy.
--
Kier
Linonut
> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
> From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
> from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
> monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
> a fact.
Majority...happily? Not sure I'd go that far. I do know a couple guys
who really enjoy using Windows, and I know a couple of guys who really
dislike it. The majority just use it and plow through any problems it
causes.
Windows is everywhere? No. You need more qualifiers to that statement.
It is pretty prevalent. It is capable of monitoring <grin> critical
devices.
>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
>> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
> or Linux zealots
Probably because Linux and Apple provide some pretty exciting systems,
certainly different and smoother than Windows in many ways.
> and when I run into a true Windows zealot
> often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
As opposed to really loving Windows best?
--
Tux rox!
waterskidoo
> And also that he's talking shit. I used Linux apps to organise my iPod.
He doesn't use Linux and his opinion was formed a long time ago
when the iPod first came out and iTunes was it.
waterskidoo
As with most Apple products the price is a little high and I can
agree with not liking iTunes, the Windows version in particular
which is very bloated.
Like most Apple products it is a very high quality unit.
waterskidoo
>
> Yes. On Roy's own server :
>
> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00507.html
I don't know who these people are in the thread but it appears
to me that it's an all out war between several people.
Things get said in these groups, some of it is regretable.
It looks like Roy was upset for some reason and lost his
temper. We all do it.
> You mean with all Roy's spam?
His posts aren't spam imho.
waterskidoo
> After takin' a swig o' grog, waterskidoo belched out this bit o' wisdom:
>
> Majority...happily? Not sure I'd go that far. I do know a couple guys
> who really enjoy using Windows, and I know a couple of guys who really
> dislike it. The majority just use it and plow through any problems it
> causes.
By happily, I mean they just use it without any deeper thought.
Like people happily going to work every day. They are not
necessarily "happy".
> Windows is everywhere? No. You need more qualifiers to that statement.
> It is pretty prevalent. It is capable of monitoring <grin> critical
> devices.
I see Windows everywhere.
From the airport to my lawyer's office to my doctor's office and
so forth.
In normal day to day chores it's impossible to not see a Windows
system.
>
> Probably because Linux and Apple provide some pretty exciting systems,
> certainly different and smoother than Windows in many ways.
I do believe you are correct.
>> and when I run into a true Windows zealot
>> often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
>
> As opposed to really loving Windows best?
Possibly, but it seems to me that I don't come in contact with
many Windows zealots. People just seem to use Windows.
Look at the Windows advocacy groups, they are dead.
Hadron
Kier
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes. On Roy's own server :
>>
>> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00507.html
>
> I don't know who these people are in the thread but it appears
> to me that it's an all out war between several people.
> Things get said in these groups, some of it is regretable.
> It looks like Roy was upset for some reason and lost his
> temper. We all do it.
He went a bit OTT in that post, IMO, but I doubt very much if he meant it
literally. Hadron of course wants to pretend he does. At the same time,
Hadron doesn't mind making tasteless references to Hans Reiser's
situation, or insunuating Mark and Roy are gay, etc.
>
>> You mean with all Roy's spam?
> His posts aren't spam imho.
Agreed. They may be annoying to some for other reasons, but that doesn't
make them spam (although I agree he should cut down the volume of those
'related' links he posts in some threads).
--
Kier
waterskidoo
> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> And also that he's talking shit. I used Linux apps to organise my iPod.
>>
>> He doesn't use Linux and his opinion was formed a long time ago
>> when the iPod first came out and iTunes was it.
>>
>
> So as I said : he is talking shit.
No he's not, it's his opinion.
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes. On Roy's own server :
>>
>> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00507.html
>
> I don't know who these people are in the thread but it appears
> to me that it's an all out war between several people.
> Things get said in these groups, some of it is regretable.
> It looks like Roy was upset for some reason and lost his
> temper. We all do it.
You don't see something rather creepy in him flipping and then saying
the following ?
http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00516.html
,----
| He has just made a terrible mistake by irritating a Web celebrity' who
| regularly eliminates some of UseNet's biggest kooks, at ISP level (header
| forging won't help and posting record makes this a trivial task). His track
| record could lead to Flatfish departure from UseNet.
|
| Now, if only we had faced that guy behind the nym, we'd leave him with a
| couple of black eyes and no penis, assuming he even has one.
`----
It indicates a rather nasty split personality. Note there are no
smileys. No nudges. No Winks. This is the persona uncovered. He let the
"good old Roy" cover slip.
>
>> You mean with all Roy's spam?
> His posts aren't spam imho.
And you are entitled to that. But also consider that he is plagiarising
the links which were collected by legitimate sites trying to generate
their own advertising revenue.
He also constantly posts things which are anti-charter.
Hadron
It doesn't need people to advocate it. The same as Linux doesn't need
the COLA gang to advocate it. Making things up about MS doesn't sell
Linux to the great unwashed. Think about it. When was the last time half
of them posted anything half true about Linux which would "advocate" it?
Most just spend all their time posting lies and spam about MS.
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> And also that he's talking shit. I used Linux apps to organise my iPod.
>>>
>>> He doesn't use Linux and his opinion was formed a long time ago
>>> when the iPod first came out and iTunes was it.
>>>
>>
>> So as I said : he is talking shit.
>
> No he's not, it's his opinion.
>
No. He is talking shit. His opinion is worthless since its based on very
old parameters and data.
Fact : you do not need iTunes to load your iPod. This is a fact.
His opinion that you DO need iTunes is wrong.
QED.
waterskidoo
> You don't see something rather creepy in him flipping and then saying
> the following ?
>
> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00516.html
I think he lost his cool.
I just did a google on his name +castrate and a large
quantity of weird hits popped up.
Clearly people are out to discredit him possibly due to
his Linux advocacy work.
I find it intriguing that you chose a
post about castration for your example.
> It indicates a rather nasty split personality. Note there are no
> smileys. No nudges. No Winks. This is the persona uncovered. He let the
> "good old Roy" cover slip.
He lost his temper and said something stupid.
So what?
It's the old 'one screw up negates 1000 atta boys' routine.
> And you are entitled to that. But also consider that he is plagiarizing
> the links which were collected by legitimate sites trying to generate
> their own advertising revenue.
I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized?
Please explain this one to me.
> He also constantly posts things which are anti-charter.
So do just about 100 percent of the people in any group.
Our little iPod/iPhone thread is anti-charter I believe.
I would say his on topic posts far outweigh the few
off topic ones. Also he tags his posts to make filtering
easy. What more could you ask for?
Tim Smith
waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> wrote:
> He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
> Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
> advocacy group needs.
Linux advocacy needs people who lie? For example:
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/
ab5d29de8a28d6f0/>
Explain how that was good for Linux advocacy.
--
--Tim Smith
waterskidoo
>
> Linux advocacy needs people who lie? For example:
>
><http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/
> ab5d29de8a28d6f0/>
>
> Explain how that was good for Linux advocacy.
You guys are cherry picking posts to suit your
POV.
It looks like he was overzealous in the initial
numbers that he claimed.
However, the basic point that MS is shilling
in groups and spreading FUD seems to be true.
Here's another example Roy gave later in the thread:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/01/0413212&from=rss
In the scheme of things I feel Roy's massive number of
good posts far outshine the marginal ones.
Nobody is perfect.
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> You don't see something rather creepy in him flipping and then saying
>> the following ?
>>
>> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00516.html
>
> I think he lost his cool.
> I just did a google on his name +castrate and a large
> quantity of weird hits popped up.
> Clearly people are out to discredit him possibly due to
> his Linux advocacy work.
> I find it intriguing that you chose a
> post about castration for your example.
Err, why? I never said it. It was him making the cold blooded threats.
>
>> It indicates a rather nasty split personality. Note there are no
>> smileys. No nudges. No Winks. This is the persona uncovered. He let the
>> "good old Roy" cover slip.
>
> He lost his temper and said something stupid.
> So what?
> It's the old 'one screw up negates 1000 atta boys' routine.
To lose ones temper is one thing. To threaten what he did is another
ball games. As I said : rather weird.
>
>> And you are entitled to that. But also consider that he is plagiarizing
>> the links which were collected by legitimate sites trying to generate
>> their own advertising revenue.
>
> I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized?
> Please explain this one to me.
No. It's fairly obvious. Go look at any of the Linux news sites and then
realise that Roy has stolen their post and their link
>
>> He also constantly posts things which are anti-charter.
> So do just about 100 percent of the people in any group.
> Our little iPod/iPhone thread is anti-charter I believe.
Actually NO. Because I advocated Linux by stating that I can use Linux
to manage my iPod and didnt need Windows or iTunes.
> I would say his on topic posts far outweigh the few
> off topic ones. Also he tags his posts to make filtering
> easy. What more could you ask for?
>
That he stops posting other people links and stops changing the subject
lines to suit his own agenda?
--
Tim Smith
Erik Funkenbusch <er...@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
> The truly disturbing part, and the part that showcases Roy's
> obsessive/compulsive nature is that he actually *knows* this. He tracks
> everything that happens with his posts, anywhere he goes. I'm certain he
> keeps a database of all this, along with his "lists" of those that are out
> to get him.
Consider that Roy says that there are one or more people who dig down
his comments on Digg, which number about 50 comments a day. According
to Roy, the amount of time and effort it would take to do that is such
that it must be someone being paid.
But it is a lot more time and effort to write and post 50 comments a day
than it is to find them and dig them down. Therefore, BY ROY'S OWN
ARGUMENT, Roy must be being paid to comment.
If he's paid for it, it's not that disturbing that he keeps stats.
--
--Tim Smith
Marcus Jones
>
> I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
> motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
> pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
> someone. Really.
Close. Schestowitz said :
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Linux advocacy needs people who lie? For example:
>>
>><http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/
>> ab5d29de8a28d6f0/>
>>
>> Explain how that was good for Linux advocacy.
>
> You guys are cherry picking posts to suit your
> POV.
> It looks like he was overzealous in the initial
> numbers that he claimed.
> However, the basic point that MS is shilling
> in groups and spreading FUD seems to be true.
Where is the proof to these ridiculous claims?
Hadron
Leaving someone without a Penis (assuming they had one before) is
castrating somebody. All rather nasty and distasteful and it is, I
suspect, a criminal offense to make such threats in public. But as i
said at the time - I find it distasteful in the first place that someone
brings real life threats into usenet discussions - such threats have no
place in these groups.
[H]omer
> On 2007-07-28, Linonut <lin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> After takin' a swig o' grog, waterskidoo belched out this bit o'
>> wisdom:
>>> and when I run into a true Windows zealot often I get the feeling
>>> that this person has an agenda.
>>
>> As opposed to really loving Windows best?
>
> Possibly, but it seems to me that I don't come in contact with many
> Windows zealots.
You mean apart from the many Microsoft Shills in this group?
Digg is overflowing with Windows zealots, as is Yahoo! Answers, and Dell
IdeaStorm.
That last one in particular is an extremely good example of how
prevalent, intrusive and aggressive Windows Shills are. If Linux users
wish to ask for Linux support from a manufacturer, then no one has the
right to sabotage that effort, but that is exactly what the Windows
Shills on IdeaStorm attempted (and thankfully failed) to do.
As I even pointed out on that site, to one particularly nasty and
persistent Troll, if I call my local Electrical Retailer to ask if
they'll stock Panasonic televisions, who has the right to call that
store and demand they ignore my request, because that person dislikes
the Panasonic brand? IIRC the Troll had no answer to that one. But this
kind of Anti-Linux sabotage is very common, on IdeaStorm and elsewhere.
It's a similar situation everywhere else. There are a growing number of
Linux users, or those considering Linux, but if anyone broaches the
subject outside the actual Linux community, they get stamped on by
Windows Shills. I've seen in in forums, newsgroups, Blogs, and even in
casual conversation. Windows zealots are everywhere.
I find it amusing that you are so insistent that there is a multitude of
Linux zealots, but apparently refute the fact that there is also a
prevalence of Windows equivalents. It seems like a rather denialist
attitude, and possibly even hypocritical.
> People just seem to use Windows.
Yes they do, because it is foisted on them by an industry that stands to
lose unethical kickbacks unless they comply with Microsoft's predatory
practises. In the main, such people are are either unaware or
distrustful of alternatives (just as the industry works so hard to
ensue), and God forbid anyone should attempt to enlighten such people,
for fear of being labelled a "Linux Zealot".
And so armed with cash, ignorance, and marketing hype, the consumer cows
graze on Microsoft pastures, in their millions, only to discover that
the grass isn't very green on that side of the fence after all. They get
fenced in with electric wires, poked with cattle prods, and force-fed
all kinds of unspeakable muck, but they rarely question, since they are
blissfully unaware of alternatives, and fear the unknown on the other
side of the fence. Ultimately the cows just grudgingly accept their
pitiful existence, cease questioning, and carry on grazing, much to the
delight of the farmer, who rubs his hands in glee at the prospect of all
the lovely money he'll soon be making selling dead cows for hamburgers.
> Look at the Windows advocacy groups, they are dead.
The Windows advocacy group (singular) is dead because Windows fanbois
have nothing to advocate. They lost the technical argument years ago,
and so have resorted to sabotaging other groups with FUD and MSFT stock
prices.
AFAICT the only argument any Winvocate has left is a financial one,
droning on about how much money Microsoft fleeces from the ignorant
public; with broken games consoles, inept and insecure Live services,
their crap and laughable "iPod killer", and what will undoubtedly go
down in the history books as the worst computer operating system ever
devised - at a cost of six years and ten billion dollars.
Oh yes - Windows advocacy is *certainly* dead.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
19:59:42 up 27 days, 18:54, 5 users, load average: 0.17, 0.24, 0.23
Tim Smith
waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Linux advocacy needs people who lie? For example:
> >
> ><http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/
> > ab5d29de8a28d6f0/>
> >
> > Explain how that was good for Linux advocacy.
>
> You guys are cherry picking posts to suit your POV. It looks like he
> was overzealous in the initial numbers that he claimed.
Since there was no data whatsoever to support his initial numbers, just
where do you think he came up with them?
And when he was shown that they were very wrong, why do you think he
tried to change his claim to be that he meant comments, not submissions,
even though there was no data whatsoever to support that claim, either?
...
> In the scheme of things I feel Roy's massive number of
> good posts far outshine the marginal ones.
> Nobody is perfect.
So if he posts enough good posts, it's OK with you if he purposefully
lies now and then?
--
--Tim Smith
Kier
> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>> On 2007-07-28, Linonut <lin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, waterskidoo belched out this bit o'
>>> wisdom:
>
>>>> and when I run into a true Windows zealot often I get the feeling
>>>> that this person has an agenda.
>>>
>>> As opposed to really loving Windows best?
>>
>> Possibly, but it seems to me that I don't come in contact with many
>> Windows zealots.
>
> You mean apart from the many Microsoft Shills in this group?
But first you have to prove they *are* so-called 'shills'. And so far, I
can't see that anyone has. Merely calling them so isn't enough.
<snip>
--
Kier
[H]omer
> I find it intriguing that you chose a post about castration for your
> example.
There's no mystery; Hardon is just one of those you mentioned earlier
who seek to "discredit" him. If I didn't know better, I'd swear Hardon
was just another flatfish nym.
> I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized? Please explain
> this one to me.
It can't. It's merely aggregating the news.
With the kind of ad hominem attacks that Hardon persists in, I wonder
why you continue to take him seriously, or even engage him in
conversation at all.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
20:45:45 up 27 days, 19:40, 5 users, load average: 0.20, 0.27, 0.35
waterskidoo
>
> Since there was no data whatsoever to support his initial numbers, just
> where do you think he came up with them?
That number, no he could not support the number.However
like I said the premise is correct and he did offer
sources for that.
Source:
searchwin2000.techtarget.com/ateExpertBio/0,289623,sid1_cid394091,00.html
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2077596,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K...
> And when he was shown that they were very wrong, why do you think he
> tried to change his claim to be that he meant comments, not submissions,
> even though there was no data whatsoever to support that claim, either?
He did support the original claim, he just couldn't
support the number he quoted.
Another source.
http://laughingsquid.com/microsoft-sent-a-free-laptop-with-windows-vi...
> ...
>> In the scheme of things I feel Roy's massive number of
>> good posts far outshine the marginal ones.
>> Nobody is perfect.
>
> So if he posts enough good posts, it's OK with you if he purposefully
> lies now and then?
I don't believe he is purposely lying.
If you can prove that I would be interested in seeing it.
Roy is just a little bit overzealous, at least from what
I have seen.
All these cherry picked posts happened long before I
ever arrived here and I don't claim to be an expert
on Linux advocacy, but like I said I just don't see
the malice you see in Roy's posting.
Is he perfect, of course not, but neither are you or I.
waterskidoo
> Err, why? I never said it. It was him making the cold blooded threats.
I just find it odd that if you Google his name +castrate a
slew of hits comes up and at the same time you chose
a message about castrating.
It just seems to be a very odd topic to pick.
> To lose ones temper is one thing. To threaten what he did is another
> ball games. As I said : rather weird.
I doubt most people would consider that a threat.
I just re-read the thread and even the person he was
threatening seems to have laughed it off. At least
that is how I read it.
>
> No. It's fairly obvious. Go look at any of the Linux news sites and then
> realise that Roy has stolen their post and their link
How does one steal a link?
> Actually NO. Because I advocated Linux by stating that I can use Linux
> to manage my iPod and didnt need Windows or iTunes.
But you can't go to the Apple iPod music store now can you?
> That he stops posting other people links and stops changing the subject
> lines to suit his own agenda?
Why don't you complain to some of the people whose links he is
posting and see what they have to say about it rather than
trying to pick an argument by speaking for them?
waterskidoo
> Erik Funkenbusch <er...@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
>> The truly disturbing part, and the part that showcases Roy's
>> obsessive/compulsive nature is that he actually *knows* this. He tracks
>> everything that happens with his posts, anywhere he goes. I'm certain he
>> keeps a database of all this, along with his "lists" of those that are out
>> to get him.
>
> Consider that Roy says that there are one or more people who dig down
> his comments on Digg, which number about 50 comments a day. According
> to Roy, the amount of time and effort it would take to do that is such
> that it must be someone being paid.
Aren;t you assuming it's a single person?
Is there any easy way to tell who is digging down comments?
I know very little about how digg works.
> But it is a lot more time and effort to write and post 50 comments a day
> than it is to find them and dig them down. Therefore, BY ROY'S OWN
> ARGUMENT, Roy must be being paid to comment.
You make a point but I think both of you would have a difficult
time proving people are being paid to digg.
Some people collect stamps, Roy's hobby seems to be advocating
Linux. What's so bad about that?
> If he's paid for it, it's not that disturbing that he keeps stats.
Is there any proof that Roy keeps a database with this information?
The original comment says "I'm certain that he keeps a database
of all this". That isn't proof.
::Devil's advocate post on:::
Also by the same token, you and Hadron following him around seems
to be a little bit odd as well.
Why the fascination?
Are you guys being paid to discredit Roy?
Why not just score his posts down if they irritate you so much?
:::off::::
Rick
> Marcus Jones <jon...@eg.invalid> writes:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I dislike him because he is a plagiariser and manipulator. And a self
>>> motivated zealot to boot. He scares people away from Linux. He has a
>>> pathological hatred for Microsoft. And also threatened to castrate
>>> someone. Really.
>>
>>
>> Close. Schestowitz said :
>>
>> "Now, if only we had faced that guy behind the nym, we'd leave him with
>> a couple of black eyes and no penis, assuming he even has one."
>>
>>
>
> Leaving someone without a Penis (assuming they had one before) is
> castrating somebody.
Uh, no. Buy a dictionary.
> All rather nasty and distasteful and it is, I
> suspect, a criminal offense to make such threats in public. But as i
You suspect? Why don't do some reading and find out.
> said at the time - I find it distasteful in the first place that someone
> brings real life threats into usenet discussions - such threats have no
> place in these groups.
--
Rick
Rick
How is he plagiarizing the links? Is he claiming he wrote the links? He
certainly isn't claiming he wrote the articles.
--
Rick
waterskidoo
> You mean apart from the many Microsoft Shills in this group?
I think I see maybe 5 at most and I wouldn't call them shills
unless they are being compensated which I doubt.
> Digg is overflowing with Windows zealots, as is Yahoo! Answers, and Dell
> IdeaStorm.
I'm new to digg so I can't say for sure, I've never used Yahoo! Answers
but Dell sells Windows computers, for the most part, what would you
expect people to be talking about?
> That last one in particular is an extremely good example of how
> prevalent, intrusive and aggressive Windows Shills are. If Linux users
> wish to ask for Linux support from a manufacturer, then no one has the
> right to sabotage that effort, but that is exactly what the Windows
> Shills on IdeaStorm attempted (and thankfully failed) to do.
Any links?
That sounds interesting.
> As I even pointed out on that site, to one particularly nasty and
> persistent Troll, if I call my local Electrical Retailer to ask if
> they'll stock Panasonic televisions, who has the right to call that
> store and demand they ignore my request, because that person dislikes
> the Panasonic brand? IIRC the Troll had no answer to that one. But this
> kind of Anti-Linux sabotage is very common, on IdeaStorm and elsewhere.
Maybe it's just a case of people misunderstanding Linux and the
Linux community.
I get a few raised eyebrows when I mention Linux to average
people who are just computer users. Many still think Linux is
a text based system!
I think it's more ignorance than paid shills.
> It's a similar situation everywhere else. There are a growing number of
> Linux users, or those considering Linux, but if anyone broaches the
> subject outside the actual Linux community, they get stamped on by
> Windows Shills. I've seen in in forums, newsgroups, Blogs, and even in
> casual conversation. Windows zealots are everywhere.
That's because Windows is everywhere and Linux being the new kid
on the block is going to get the abuse just like the, well, the
new kid that moves in on your block.
To assume that these people are shills is paranoia to the nth degree.
Do you believe these people are being paid to shill Windows?
> I find it amusing that you are so insistent that there is a multitude of
> Linux zealots, but apparently refute the fact that there is also a
> prevalence of Windows equivalents. It seems like a rather denialist
> attitude, and possibly even hypocritical.
No it's not.
Take a look at the Windows advocacy group.
It's dead.
I don't see boycott this and boycott that messages and threads
coming from the Windows users.
Sure there are people shilling, but the average Windows user
is too busy using the system to get over excited about it.
Considering that Windows users outnumber Linux users greatly
there seems to be a lot more noise coming from the Linux
side of things.
>> People just seem to use Windows.
>
> Yes they do, because it is foisted on them by an industry that stands to
> lose unethical kickbacks unless they comply with Microsoft's predatory
> practises. In the main, such people are are either unaware or
> distrustful of alternatives (just as the industry works so hard to
> ensue), and God forbid anyone should attempt to enlighten such people,
> for fear of being labelled a "Linux Zealot".
A little over the top, but in general I agree with what you are saying
here. I'm not denying that there are Windows shills, paid shills, in
groups and I'm not denying that people aren't trying to scare others
away from Linux however, the number is nowhere near what is being
claimed in this group. Not an actual number of course, but the
attitude that a comment against Linux must be from a shill.
> And so armed with cash, ignorance, and marketing hype, the consumer cows
> graze on Microsoft pastures, in their millions, only to discover that
> the grass isn't very green on that side of the fence after all. They get
> fenced in with electric wires, poked with cattle prods, and force-fed
> all kinds of unspeakable muck, but they rarely question, since they are
> blissfully unaware of alternatives, and fear the unknown on the other
> side of the fence. Ultimately the cows just grudgingly accept their
> pitiful existence, cease questioning, and carry on grazing, much to the
> delight of the farmer, who rubs his hands in glee at the prospect of all
> the lovely money he'll soon be making selling dead cows for hamburgers.
The tide is changing, and rapidly. Personally I feel the public is
on to the Vista hype and are ignoring it. It sure seems that way.
But, Linux is here and is free. How do you explain the lack of
people using desktop Linux which is free while Windows is expensive?
>> Look at the Windows advocacy groups, they are dead.
>
> The Windows advocacy group (singular) is dead because Windows fanbois
> have nothing to advocate. They lost the technical argument years ago,
> and so have resorted to sabotaging other groups with FUD and MSFT stock
> prices.
That's a very obtuse way of looking at things.
That group has always been dead fWIW.
I've seen plenty of "Linux is great" messages posted in Windows
groups.
How do you explain that?
> AFAICT the only argument any Winvocate has left is a financial one,
> droning on about how much money Microsoft fleeces from the ignorant
> public; with broken games consoles, inept and insecure Live services,
> their crap and laughable "iPod killer", and what will undoubtedly go
> down in the history books as the worst computer operating system ever
> devised - at a cost of six years and ten billion dollars.
>
> Oh yes - Windows advocacy is *certainly* dead.
Your post seems to indicate that you are everything you are accusing
these Windows shills of being, with the exception of the
financials of course.
Rick
How has he stolen their post or link?
>
>
>>> He also constantly posts things which are anti-charter.
>> So do just about 100 percent of the people in any group. Our little
>> iPod/iPhone thread is anti-charter I believe.
>
> Actually NO. Because I advocated Linux by stating that I can use Linux
> to manage my iPod and didnt need Windows or iTunes.
How did you connect to the Apple Music store? How do you generate
playlists?
>
>> I would say his on topic posts far outweigh the few off topic ones.
>> Also he tags his posts to make filtering easy. What more could you ask
>> for?
>>
>>
> That he stops posting other people links and stops changing the subject
> lines to suit his own agenda?
So, in your view, it is wrong to post links web pages in a Usenet post?
--
Rick
Erik Funkenbusch
> You guys are cherry picking posts to suit your
> POV.
We don't have to cherry pick, he does crap all the time.
How about the time he got caught pirating images for his blog? And, when
caught, refused to take it down, even after the artist himself asked him to
do so.
> It looks like he was overzealous in the initial
> numbers that he claimed.
Overzealous? Are you kidding me? There was no data to support his claim
*AT ALL*.
> In the scheme of things I feel Roy's massive number of
> good posts far outshine the marginal ones.
> Nobody is perfect.
If they were simply marginal, that would be one thing. Being outright
lies, distortions, etc is another.
What you're displaying is a classic case of situational ethics. Look it
up.
[H]omer
> ::Devil's advocate post on:::
>
> Also by the same token, you and Hadron following him around seems
> to be a little bit odd as well.
> Why the fascination?
> Are you guys being paid to discredit Roy?
> Why not just score his posts down if they irritate you so much?
>
> :::off::::
Finally you're starting to wake up.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
21:49:49 up 27 days, 20:44, 5 users, load average: 0.50, 0.29, 0.21
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:46:30 -0000,
Rick <no...@nomail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:31:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> What does he hate about them? Design-wise, they are things of beuaty,
>>>> and the thumb-scroll-wheel is brilliant. Of course, there is and
>>>> always will be some element of hype, but I don't believe all their
>>>> popularity can be put down to that.
>>>
>>> He doesn't like the fact that it is tied to iTunes and claims it is a
>>> piece of over priced junk. It's interesting because he has never owned
>>> one.
>>>
>>>
>> And also that he's talking shit. I used Linux apps to organise my iPod.
>
> How well did it connect to the Apple Music Store under Linux?
> What did you use to generate playlists?
>
I don't use the itms, but playlists are a piece of cake with Rhythmbox
or gtkpod. I think Amarok does as well.
i have access to magnatune and jamendo from Rhythmbox, but 90%+ of my
music is from my CD collection. The rest are from all over, including
concerts, and magnatune etc.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFGq70Id90bcYOAWPYRAtT9AKCDBBd5MhkC61BNNJG/zX2V/MogvQCg0JIV
cxfQMrwt95opAQ57pK/btIY=
=Z0gX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer.
--Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C.
William Poaster
halfway through a large jam doughnut, [H]omer wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>
>> I find it intriguing that you chose a post about castration for your
>> example.
>
> There's no mystery; Hardon is just one of those you mentioned earlier
> who seek to "discredit" him. If I didn't know better, I'd swear Hardon
> was just another flatfish nym.
I agree, he's very much like flatfish.
>> I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized? Please explain this
>> one to me.
>
> It can't. It's merely aggregating the news.
>
> With the kind of ad hominem attacks that Hardon persists in, I wonder
> why you continue to take him seriously, or even engage him in
> conversation at all.
Some of us don't take him seriously. He's a charlatan.
--
The universe exploded out of nothingness 14 billion years ago.
14 billion years later, & some of us have 100 trillion
interconnected cells, & a self-aware consciousness.
Others post through GoogleGroups, & insist on installing Vista.
William Poaster
Exactly. How the f*ck can you steal something in the public domain?
Quack's an idiot, & proving it with every post.
>>>> He also constantly posts things which are anti-charter.
>>> So do just about 100 percent of the people in any group. Our little
>>> iPod/iPhone thread is anti-charter I believe.
>>
>> Actually NO. Because I advocated Linux by stating that I can use Linux
>> to manage my iPod and didnt need Windows or iTunes.
>
> How did you connect to the Apple Music store? How do you generate
> playlists?
>
>
>>> I would say his on topic posts far outweigh the few off topic ones.
>>> Also he tags his posts to make filtering easy. What more could you ask
>>> for?
>>>
>>>
>> That he stops posting other people links and stops changing the subject
>> lines to suit his own agenda?
>
> So, in your view, it is wrong to post links web pages in a Usenet post?
JHC, what a jerk he is.
William Poaster
halfway through a large jam doughnut, Rick wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:06:19 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2007-07-28, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not
>>>> like the idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with
>>>> Windows, but actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this
>>>> fact is the wrong way to go about promoting Linux to them.
>>>
>>> I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
>>
>> Why would anyone hate iTunes?
>
> Why don't you ask the person that "hates" iTunes. There are people with
> different tastes than you, you know.
>
>> It's much easier to use for playlists than any Linux player I can think
>> of. More importantly it has built in normalization which no Linux
>> player has afaik (I would gladly be corrected on this one).
>>
>> I can understand someone preferring, say, Amarok, but to "hate" iTunes
>> wreaks of the zealot to me.
>
> It is a phrase, jerk.
>
>
>>> I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is hugely
>>> popular and if not the most used legal download site is certainly near
>>> the top of the list. He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's
>>> all hype in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
>>
>> Aha. We are beginning to see a pattern. iPods, as their sales have
>> proven, are wonderfully designed and functional. Great devices and
>> continue to dominate the market.
>
> iTunes and iPods sell each other. Apparently Apple is hoping
> iTunes/iPods will sell more Macs.
>
>
>>> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user. From a
>>> design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
>>
>> So does Linux. It's SW. All SW has problems. The slow and tortuous move
>> to ALSA as the sound architecture being one. The horrible support for
>> ATI cards being another. The total inability to use USB Wireless
>> dongles being another (or has that improved?).
>
> You mean you don't know? Wow.
>
>
>>> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users from
>>> happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses monitoring
>>> critical devices and collecting data and that's a fact. Would Linux be
>>> a better choice?
>>> Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
>>
>> Really? For the average desktop? Actually yes. I think it would (now)
>> too. But it's simply too late. It missed the boat. And why? Because
>> fools like Gregory Shearman didn't want to improve anything as it was
>> "good enough for them" 10 years ago.
See? I told you this idiot Quack has reading comprehension problems.
>> It took real people with real
>> foresight (people like Mark Shuttleworth) to see the potential and to
>> address the issues. And what do we find? Suddenly DELL is back to
>> shipping Linux (Ubuntu) boxes.
>
> So, is it your position that Anaconda has never improved? Or Mandriva's
> installer? Or Suse's? Are you saying Ubuntu is the only distro with
> improved installers and user friendliness?
He hasn't the FFC what he's talking about.
>>> The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the person look
>>> silly.
>>
>> And so does predicting Windows demise and lying about the uptake in
>> Linux which is so common practice by the likes of Roy "spammer"
>> Schestowitz, Mark Kent, chrisv, AB, High Plains Rafael etc.
>
> Speaking of lies, when are are you going to provide quotes of my
> supposed lies?
>
>
>>>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>>>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all
>>>> have to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>>
>> Of course. But "ridiculous == normal" in COLA. It's the way.
>
> That may be true. After all, you post here.
Yup! "Anything said in COLA is a crock of shit."
Hadron Quark, Tuesday 03 Jul 2007 alt.os.linux.ubuntu
So this *would* include anything that *he* says!
>> The good thing about Kier is that he IS realistic most of the time.
>>
>>
>>> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple or
>>> Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot often I get
>>> the feeling that this person has an agenda.
>>
>> All zealots have an agenda. It's why they are zealots.
>
> You should know.
He's a windows zealot.
[H]omer
>> You mean apart from the many Microsoft Shills in this group?
>
> I think I see maybe 5 at most and I wouldn't call them shills unless
> they are being compensated which I doubt.
See below.
>> Digg is overflowing with Windows zealots, as is Yahoo! Answers, and
>> Dell IdeaStorm.
>
> I'm new to digg so I can't say for sure, I've never used Yahoo!
> Answers but Dell sells Windows computers, for the most part, what
> would you expect people to be talking about?
On a post requesting support for Linux, I would expect people to be
talking about Linux ... naturally. As I said (Ref: the Panasonic
analogy), either one agrees and adds their support, or isn't interested
and just leaves well enough alone. Anything else is sabotage.
You should really get up to speed with the Dell IdeaStorm issue, it
sounds like you don't even know what it is.
>> That last one in particular is an extremely good example of how
>> prevalent, intrusive and aggressive Windows Shills are. If Linux
>> users wish to ask for Linux support from a manufacturer, then no
>> one has the right to sabotage that effort, but that is exactly what
>> the Windows Shills on IdeaStorm attempted (and thankfully failed)
>> to do.
>
> Any links? That sounds interesting.
This was all headline news last year. I assumed everyone knew, but
apparently not:
http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/61771/PreInstalled_Linux__Ubuntu__Fedora__OpenSUSE__MultiBoot
It's a vast thread, and has no clickable links to individual comments.
If you have the stamina and patience, I recommend reading it all, and
note how quickly in the thread the Shills appear (starting comment #3).
Let me reiterate ... IdeaStorm is not an advocacy forum or a place for
debate of any kind, it is merely a place for Dell customers, or
potential customers, to make requests for things they'd like to buy. The
Windows Shills seemed to think otherwise.
And here's one of my, admittedly angry, but nonetheless poignant posts:
http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/64277
Pay close attention to the exchange between me and "jake_fehr", who
seems to think it is his God-given right to interfere with another
customer's request.
Bear in mind that the context at the time was Dell starting to
back-pedal, like they have been known to do in the past at Microsoft's
behest:
.----
| Kempin raises the possibility of threatening Dell and other PC
| builders which promote Linux.
|
| "I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with
| anti-Linux. ... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to
| Ballmer
`----
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
I was annoyed and frustrated, so the tone of that post was not very
endearing, but it was based on the documented evidence (above) and my
concern that this important development was going to be buried.
> To assume that these people are shills is paranoia to the nth degree.
> Do you believe these people are being paid to shill Windows?
See below.
> I don't see boycott this and boycott that messages and threads coming
> from the Windows users.
First of all, Windows users do not need to advocate "boycotting"
anything, since their OS already has the dominant position, and is not
being attacked on it's home turf by Shills, baseless patent infringement
allegations, OEM lock-ins, big budget political lobbying, "Get The
Facts" campaigns of disinformation, Microsoft sponsored "industry
studies" by supposedly impartial analysts, or so-called Journalists with
undisclosed conflicting interests.
Secondly, what you also "don't see" is Linux advocates invading
non-Linux groups and forums (accidental X-Posting aside) with
Anti-Windows rhetoric. The same cannot be said about Windows users and
their Anti-Linux rhetoric.
> Sure there are people shilling, but the average Windows user is too
> busy using the system to get over excited about it. Considering that
> Windows users outnumber Linux users greatly there seems to be a lot
> more noise coming from the Linux side of things.
People who are repressed need to shout louder.
> a comment against Linux must be from a shill.
(Ref: the "See below" comments)
The reason I, and others, make that claim, is a question of motive.
This is the Linux Advocacy group, so it is natural that the discussions
here will be pro-Linux, and anti-[Everything Else]. My motivation is to
promote Linux, demote the competition, and to defend it against
unwarranted attack ... *in this group*.
Anti-Linux posts in this group are such an attack, but the question is,
what motivates people to invade this group and poison it with
anti-Linux posts?
If I am interested in a certain topic, e.g. origami, and there is an
origami newsgroup, then I might be inclined to join that group and post
about that subject. But if I am *not* interested, why would I be
inclined to join that group and post anti-origami posts? What could
motivate such a person, esp. if they did so on a regular basis, with
ever more vicious attacks?
It is sabotage, vandalism, and highly suspicious behaviour for someone
to invade a group for something they don't like, and post spiteful
messages. It must take considerable time and effort to do this, so who
would expend such an effort to sabotage others interests? I can only
surmise that such a person would surely need to be financially motivated
... either that or mentally unstable.
> How do you explain the lack of people using desktop Linux which is
> free while Windows is expensive?
Ignorance and lock-ins, both perpetuated by the industry.
>>> Look at the Windows advocacy groups, they are dead.
>>
>> The Windows advocacy group (singular) is dead because Windows
>> fanbois have nothing to advocate. They lost the technical argument
>> years ago, and so have resorted to sabotaging other groups with FUD
>> and MSFT stock prices.
>
> That's a very obtuse way of looking at things. That group has always
> been dead fWIW.
Talking of obtuse, you need to do your research:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy/about?hl=en
Interest in that group dropped dramatically in July 2001, and reached an
all-time low of just 3 posts in December 2006. It was, however,
extremely active for eight years.
> I've seen plenty of "Linux is great" messages posted in Windows
> groups. How do you explain that?
Yes I've seen posts like that too, for those brave enough to mention
Linux in a hostile environment. They're usually stamped on. What is
there to explain?
>> AFAICT the only argument any Winvocate has left is a financial one,
>> droning on about how much money Microsoft fleeces from the
>> ignorant public; with broken games consoles, inept and insecure
>> Live services, their crap and laughable "iPod killer", and what
>> will undoubtedly go down in the history books as the worst computer
>> operating system ever devised - at a cost of six years and ten
>> billion dollars.
>>
>> Oh yes - Windows advocacy is *certainly* dead.
>
> Your post seems to indicate that you are everything you are accusing
> these Windows shills of being, with the exception of the financials
> of course.
No, my post indicates that I am a Linux advocate, advocating Linux and
demoting the competition, in a Linux advocacy group. I am not invading
non-Linux forums/groups/threads/blogs with anti-Windows or pro-Linux
rhetoric, unlike the Trolls in this group, and Windows zealots elsewhere.
So ... what is *your* motivation ... for defending Windows Shills in the
Linux Advocacy group?
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "Computer games don’t affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
00:55:57 up 27 days, 23:50, 5 users, load average: 0.04, 0.15, 0.19
Tim Smith
waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Consider that Roy says that there are one or more people who dig down
> > his comments on Digg, which number about 50 comments a day. According
> > to Roy, the amount of time and effort it would take to do that is such
> > that it must be someone being paid.
>
> Aren;t you assuming it's a single person?
If it is multiple people, that just makes the argument stronger, as that
would be less time and effort per person.
...
> > But it is a lot more time and effort to write and post 50 comments a day
> > than it is to find them and dig them down. Therefore, BY ROY'S OWN
> > ARGUMENT, Roy must be being paid to comment.
>
> You make a point but I think both of you would have a difficult
> time proving people are being paid to digg.
> Some people collect stamps, Roy's hobby seems to be advocating
> Linux. What's so bad about that?
Nothing's bad about it. My point here is that Roy is trying to argue
that people are paid to digg down his comments, but his argument works
equally well when applied him.
> ::Devil's advocate post on:::
>
> Also by the same token, you and Hadron following him around seems
> to be a little bit odd as well.
> Why the fascination?
> Are you guys being paid to discredit Roy?
> Why not just score his posts down if they irritate you so much?
>
> :::off::::
I don't follow him around. He posts a lot to places I read, so I see
his posts. Since I have excellent news gathering tools, I often am
already familiar with what he is posting, and so when he posts something
this is incorrect, I will either comment on it, or mod it down (if it is
posted somewhere that allows moderation), or both. (And about 10% of
the time, I'll mod him up).
Roy runs into problems on Digg for several reasons. Here are a few:
(1) Repetitive, off-topic comments. For example, if there is a story
about Intel, Roy will post something about how Intel is trying to screw
the OLPC and is an enemy of open source. It doesn't matter if the story
had nothing to do with any of that. Diggers will put up with that on
occasion, but he'll post basically the same thing to every story about
Intel, and that doesn't go ever well. He's got a whole arsenal of these
things--he's got some for Intel stories, some for AMD stories, some for
Microsoft stories, some for Apple stories
(2) Bad presentation. There are two things he does in his presentation
that annoys people.
(a) He posts long comments that contain quotes and links (much like
his postings here), but formatted in a very annoying way. There have
been many complaints to him about the formatting, and the Digg staff
told him they don't like it. He stopped for a while, but he's reverted.
(b) Spelling or grammar errors. Normally people overlook the
occasional spelling or grammar error, but Roy stated in one of his
comments that he does not proofread his Digg posts. I suspect that
because of that, some people are stricter with Roy on spelling and
grammar than they would be on someone who tries to get it right and
fails.
(3) Labeling people. There's a large list of columnists for major
computing magazines who Roy has decided are shills or trolls. When
someone posts a story linking to one of their columns, Roy is quickly
there with "Soandso is a known Microsoft shill. Do not read his column".
That might have been mildly interesting the first time Roy posted it,
but by the 20th, it gets pretty tiring. Digg users want to see comments
that discuss the content of the linked column, not accusations about the
author (especially when the author is a well-known columnist at a major
magazine, and so nearly everyone is already familiar with him, and
already knows where he stands with regard to Microsoft).
--
--Tim Smith
Kier
> (b) Spelling or grammar errors. Normally people overlook the
> occasional spelling or grammar error, but Roy stated in one of his
> comments that he does not proofread his Digg posts. I suspect that
> because of that, some people are stricter with Roy on spelling and
> grammar than they would be on someone who tries to get it right and
> fails.
While I may agree with much of what you've said here, whining about
spelling or grammer does you little credit. Stick to faults that actually
matter.
--
Kier
Tim Smith
waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2007-07-28, Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Since there was no data whatsoever to support his initial numbers, just
> > where do you think he came up with them?
>
> That number, no he could not support the number.However
> like I said the premise is correct and he did offer
> sources for that.
>
> Source:
>
> searchwin2000.techtarget.com/ateExpertBio/0,289623,sid1_cid394091,00.html
>
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2077596,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K...
Could you point out in there where it says Rod Trent is posting a bunch
of pro-Microsoft things on Digg? I can't seem to find anything in there
about Rod Trent.
> > And when he was shown that they were very wrong, why do you think he
> > tried to change his claim to be that he meant comments, not submissions,
> > even though there was no data whatsoever to support that claim, either?
>
> He did support the original claim, he just couldn't
> support the number he quoted.
>
> Another source.
>
> http://laughingsquid.com/microsoft-sent-a-free-laptop-with-windows-vi...
Again, I can't find anything there about Rod Trent's Digg posts. Can
you point it out?
...
> > So if he posts enough good posts, it's OK with you if he purposefully
> > lies now and then?
>
> I don't believe he is purposely lying.
> If you can prove that I would be interested in seeing it.
How else do you explain his claims about Rod Trent's Digg postings?
Maybe you should read the thread I linked to again. Roy was not making
a general claim that there exist shills. He made a very specific claim,
about a very specific person (a person who has never, as far as I can
see, posted here, and was not, as far as I've seen, ever even mentioned
here until Roy attacked him). His claim was shown to be wrong--so wrong
that it is not even plausible that it could have been made in error. He
had no defense, other than to try to chance the claim to another, which
was shown to be as wrong.
--
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
Note that I'm not complaining about his spelling or grammar. I'm saying
that spelling and grammar is one reason some might dig him down (mainly
because he's said he doesn't proofread, and so every spelling or grammar
error might remind people of that, and thus annoy them).
--
--Tim Smith
Hadron
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Err, why? I never said it. It was him making the cold blooded threats.
>
> I just find it odd that if you Google his name +castrate a
> slew of hits comes up and at the same time you chose
> a message about castrating.
> It just seems to be a very odd topic to pick.
Not really. It stuck in my mind as to how he can turn strange.
>
>> To lose ones temper is one thing. To threaten what he did is another
>> ball games. As I said : rather weird.
>
> I doubt most people would consider that a threat.
What?
> I just re-read the thread and even the person he was
> threatening seems to have laughed it off. At least
> that is how I read it.
What the person said was (to paraphrase) "Dont threaten people". There
was no laughing off.
>
>>
>> No. It's fairly obvious. Go look at any of the Linux news sites and then
>> realise that Roy has stolen their post and their link
>
> How does one steal a link?
Easy. You go to websites that spend a lot of time collating real news,
and you, err, steal their links.
>
>
>> Actually NO. Because I advocated Linux by stating that I can use Linux
>> to manage my iPod and didnt need Windows or iTunes.
> But you can't go to the Apple iPod music store now can you?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2rhz8u
So?
>
>
>> That he stops posting other people links and stops changing the subject
>> lines to suit his own agenda?
>
> Why don't you complain to some of the people whose links he is
> posting and see what they have to say about it rather than
> trying to pick an argument by speaking for them?
Because I am not as petty as Roy?
But good to see you understand now.
--
High Plains Thumper
> waterskidoo wrote:
>
>> You guys are cherry picking posts to suit your POV.
>
> We don't have to cherry pick, he does crap all the time.
>
> How about the time he got caught pirating images for his blog? And,
> when caught, refused to take it down, even after the artist himself
> asked him to do so.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/
> browse_thread/thread/e8c5347cf29e598a/cca760d8ed09213e
Hmmm, looks like a Funkenbusch situational ethics scenario to me. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/07c0d83305c13caa
[quote]
> Further, COLA is IMMORAL. I have one of your leaders, stealing art
> pictures, and posting on his own web site, without permission.
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You take a single example
of a personal blog with one image. Then you associate that one instance
with the C.O.L.A. posting community, as though that one individual
represents C.O.L.A.
Rather than approach that one individual personally and express your
concerns, you feel that C.O.L.A. is the place to publicly bash a personal
blog. Then you make a sweeping generality about the entire posting
community being immoral over personal disagreements on one art image on a
personal blog.
[/quote]
That was a reply to TAB, however, it sums up your accusations as well.
You seem to have a pension for taking a singular example of an incident
and puffing it up into a major crisis. This holds true of my use of two
alternate nyms to my real name. You still have not answered the question
to:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/f5791387d34096e5
[quote]
Although this green feature has been available on PC's for a while, then
why has not Microsoft supported Wake-on-LAN with their SMS 2003?
Wake-on-LAN has been around for a while.
[/quote]
Green PC's is a function that has been around for a while. There is
potential to save considerably in reducing KWH consumption and associated
green house gases that are emitted by fosil power plants, producing power
to supply those PC's.
>> It looks like he was overzealous in the initial numbers that he
>> claimed.
>
> Overzealous? Are you kidding me? There was no data to support his
> claim *AT ALL*.
>
>> In the scheme of things I feel Roy's massive number of good posts far
>> outshine the marginal ones. Nobody is perfect.
>
> If they were simply marginal, that would be one thing. Being outright
> lies, distortions, etc is another.
>
> What you're displaying is a classic case of situational ethics. Look it
> up.
OK, according to:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=situational+ethics&gwp=13
The American Heritage Dictionaries
[quote]
situation ethics
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
A system of ethics that evaluates acts in light of their situational
context rather than by the application of moral absolutes.
[/quote]
Further clarification from this next definition:
The Oxford University Press
[quote]
situation ethics
The view that ethical judgement applies to whole situations, rather as
aesthetic judgement is formed in response to total works of art. Any
attempt to abstract features in virtue of which situations merit a
judgement, and then to argue about new cases in the light of those
features, is potentially misleading; for a feature may contribute to the
value of one situation, but be irrelevant in another, just as a particular
splash of colour might be just what one picture needs, but be
inappropriate in another. The principal difficulty in front of this view
is that ethics is not just a matter of responding to existing situations,
but is essentially a practical subject, in which future options have to be
ranked in the light of different features. See also contextualism.
[/quote]
provides an indicting reflection of your actions; not just you but what
Hadron and Timmy have been been doing on this newsgroup.
--
HPT
Roy Schestowitz
> On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes. On Roy's own server :
>>
>> http://schestowitz.com/UseNet/2006/September_2006_2/msg00507.html
>
> I don't know who these people are in the thread but it appears
> to me that it's an all out war between several people.
> Things get said in these groups, some of it is regretable.
> It looks like Roy was upset for some reason and lost his
> temper. We all do it.
>
>> You mean with all Roy's spam?
> His posts aren't spam imho.
You must see this in context and also realise that I didn't actually mean what
I typed. The trolls were posting a series of posts in all sorts of online
forums about /me/ (yes, impersonating, pretending to be me) where I am said to
have removed my genitalia. It wasn't one post. It wasn't one forum. To this
date, I have people who find posts from "Roy Schestowitz" about chopping of
his you-know-who. It's all over the Web because the trolls planted it there.
They made it all up.
They made up some other lies that they repeated endlessly (the Big Lie
propaganda technique, championed by Germany in the 1930s and later by
Microsoft when it launched "Get the Facts"). It was all the work of fiction.
Something about me being beaten up by the police in some gay club? If there
was no anonymity on the Web, there would be basis for slander here. It's all
made up and it's only one example.
To be honest with you, I went to see a lawyer at the time. It was identity
theft, but the ISPs would not take notice. If only you saw the number of vile
attacks on me at that time... COLA used to be far more of a nuthouse.
--
~~ Best of wishes
For governments that eavesdrop, here is a quick list of tags: Communism,
Hawaiian shirts, China, Suitcase, Martha Stewart, Encryption, Prison, Stalin.
Thanks for tuning in.
waterskidoo
> No, my post indicates that I am a Linux advocate, advocating Linux and
> demoting the competition, in a Linux advocacy group. I am not invading
> non-Linux forums/groups/threads/blogs with anti-Windows or pro-Linux
> rhetoric, unlike the Trolls in this group, and Windows zealots elsewhere.
>
> So ... what is *your* motivation ... for defending Windows Shills in the
> Linux Advocacy group?
You've written quite a piece there, far too much to comment on but
I do agree with some of it.
My disagreement is with Linux supporters who call every Tom, Dick and
Jane a Windows shill because my understanding of a shill is a person
who is working for someone or some company that has a stake in what
is being discussed, in this case Windows or Linux, but does not
reveal that he is associated with said person or company.
For example Ballmar posting in COLA under a assumed name and
saying how great Windows is.
I just don't see this happening to the extent that Linux
advocates are claiming and in fact if you compare the reputation
that the Linux community has for being zealots to that
of the Windows community it's no contest. Linux users
for whatever reason have a reputation for that kind of stuff.
As for defending Windows shills, I don't defend anyone but
I also don't accuse people willy nilly of being paid shills
without some verifiable proof.
Tim Smith
High Plains Thumper <highplai...@gREMTHISmail.com> wrote:
> > How about the time he got caught pirating images for his blog? And,
> > when caught, refused to take it down, even after the artist himself
> > asked him to do so.
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/
> > browse_thread/thread/e8c5347cf29e598a/cca760d8ed09213e
>
> Hmmm, looks like a Funkenbusch situational ethics scenario to me. See:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/07c0d83305c13caa
>
> [quote]
> > Further, COLA is IMMORAL. I have one of your leaders, stealing art
> > pictures, and posting on his own web site, without permission.
>
> You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You take a single example
> of a personal blog with one image. Then you associate that one instance
> with the C.O.L.A. posting community, as though that one individual
> represents C.O.L.A.
>
> Rather than approach that one individual personally and express your
> concerns, you feel that C.O.L.A. is the place to publicly bash a personal
> blog. Then you make a sweeping generality about the entire posting
> community being immoral over personal disagreements on one art image on a
> personal blog.
> [/quote]
>
> That was a reply to TAB, however, it sums up your accusations as well.
Where did Erik associate it with all of COLA?
--
--Tim Smith
waterskidoo
>
> You must see this in context and also realise that I didn't actually mean what
> I typed. The trolls were posting a series of posts in all sorts of online
****Snipped to prevent further net garbage.^^^^^^^^^^
That's what I thought Roy, especially after I did some searching.
It's obvious that you have attracted some big guns because of your
advocacy. I would just laugh at it because nobody could possibly take
any of that rambling seriously. In fact you could probably use it
to your advantage to demonstrate how far some of the seedier factions
of this industry will go to discredit the competitor.
Mark Kent
> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>
>> ::Devil's advocate post on:::
>>
>> Also by the same token, you and Hadron following him around seems
>> to be a little bit odd as well.
>> Why the fascination?
>> Are you guys being paid to discredit Roy?
>> Why not just score his posts down if they irritate you so much?
>>
>> :::off::::
>
> Finally you're starting to wake up.
>
You cannot reason with the shills and trolls; they are smart, they
appear reasonable enough to newcomers, but their tactics are so
transparent that everyone realises soon enough. The best way of dealing
with them is to killfile them.
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |
Hadron
Just to remind you once again : it was Roy who was threatening violence
and castration. Not the "seedier factions". It shows his true character.
Mark Kent
> On 2007-07-27, Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
>> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
>> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
>> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
>> direction?
>>
>> Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person with a
>> tail and horns.
>
> I agree. There is no doubt that companies have shills that fluff the
> forums, but I don't believe it is as widespread as some people
> believe.
> I try to either avoid the suspected shills all together or
> give the benefit of doubt until proved otherwise.
It's a reasonably safe position to take, but one thing to consider here
is that being "pro-linux" is more of a philosophical position, linux is
not a commercial entity, it's an operating system which anyone can
freely download and use. Being pro-Windows is the same thing as being
pro-Microsoft, as Microsoft own all rights to Windows, and guard those
rights jealously indeed, therefore, if you're pro-Windows, you are
supporting a particular commercial organisation.
Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with supporting a commercial
organisation, *but*, it's not orthogonal to being pro-Linux, since free
software is a quite different political positioning to proprietary. For
example, being pro-Symbian is essentially the same from a cola point of
view as being pro-Windows, or being pro-Mac is equally more or less the
same as being pro-Windows, since each of these are proprietary systems,
with commercially motivated owners.
The question which deserves consideration, therefore, is why would
anyone come to cola with a pro-Windows, Symbian or Mac (or AmigaOS, or
RiscOS, or AIX, or HPUX, or VMS, or CPM ...) position? This group is
simply not the place for pushing proprietary solutions, it's about
pushing the free Linux-based solutions.
There are some interesting grey areas, though - for example:
Quake 3/4 vs Nexuiz
Skype vs Jabber
Opera vs Firefox
These are all examples of binary-only, proprietary, applications, which
have functionally equivalent free alternatives. We often see people
here pushing the virtues of Skype on Linux; can it be justified with
respect to the charter of the group? In some respects, it can, since it
does run on Linux, and this is a linux advocacy group.
Equally, Skype were recently found guilty of GPL violation in Germany
with respect to the usage of the Linux kernel in one of their Skype
phones (again, the GPL has been validated in court).
Looking at things the other way around, why don't we see more:
pro-freeBSD
pro-OpenBSD
pro-NetBSD
pro-ReactOS
pro-Freedos
... people here? Well, I suspect that this is for the same reason we
don't see much in the way of pro-Linux people polluting proprietary
advocacy groups, because they are all philosophically similar. They are
all about free software as an approach, as much as any particular
implementation.
Where the line gets crossed, however, is in such as the Tivo box, where
the intent of the GPL is subverted through the use of binary-only kernel
extensions. This is worthy of discussion here, of course.
Mark Kent
> It was on, or about, Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:47:10 +0100, that as I was
> halfway through a large jam doughnut, [H]omer wrote:
>
>> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>>
>>> I find it intriguing that you chose a post about castration for your
>>> example.
>>
>> There's no mystery; Hardon is just one of those you mentioned earlier
>> who seek to "discredit" him. If I didn't know better, I'd swear Hardon
>> was just another flatfish nym.
>
> I agree, he's very much like flatfish.
He's become more so over time, too. I wonder if he'll start a barrage
of nymshifting, soon?
>
>>> I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized? Please explain this
>>> one to me.
>>
>> It can't. It's merely aggregating the news.
>>
>> With the kind of ad hominem attacks that Hardon persists in, I wonder
>> why you continue to take him seriously, or even engage him in
>> conversation at all.
>
> Some of us don't take him seriously. He's a charlatan.
>
Killfile is the best place for Hadron Quark.
William Poaster
halfway through a large jam doughnut, Mark Kent wrote:
> William Poaster <w...@kubuntu704-1.eu> espoused:
>> It was on, or about, Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:47:10 +0100, that as I was
>> halfway through a large jam doughnut, [H]omer wrote:
>>
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> I find it intriguing that you chose a post about castration for your
>>>> example.
>>>
>>> There's no mystery; Hardon is just one of those you mentioned earlier
>>> who seek to "discredit" him. If I didn't know better, I'd swear Hardon
>>> was just another flatfish nym.
>>
>> I agree, he's very much like flatfish.
>
> He's become more so over time, too. I wonder if he'll start a barrage
> of nymshifting, soon?
I wouldn't see them anyway. :-)
>>>> I fail to understand how a link can be plagiarized? Please explain
>>>> this one to me.
>>>
>>> It can't. It's merely aggregating the news.
>>>
>>> With the kind of ad hominem attacks that Hardon persists in, I wonder
>>> why you continue to take him seriously, or even engage him in
>>> conversation at all.
>>
>> Some of us don't take him seriously. He's a charlatan.
>>
>>
> Killfile is the best place for Hadron Quark.
Yes.
Mark Kent
>>
>> No, my post indicates that I am a Linux advocate, advocating Linux and
>> demoting the competition, in a Linux advocacy group. I am not invading
>> non-Linux forums/groups/threads/blogs with anti-Windows or pro-Linux
>> rhetoric, unlike the Trolls in this group, and Windows zealots elsewhere.
>>
>> So ... what is *your* motivation ... for defending Windows Shills in the
>> Linux Advocacy group?
>
>
> You've written quite a piece there, far too much to comment on but
> I do agree with some of it.
> My disagreement is with Linux supporters who call every Tom, Dick and
> Jane a Windows shill because my understanding of a shill is a person
> who is working for someone or some company that has a stake in what
> is being discussed, in this case Windows or Linux, but does not
> reveal that he is associated with said person or company.
> For example Ballmar posting in COLA under a assumed name and
> saying how great Windows is.
There have been many shilling campaigns, a number of which have been
directly exposed. Roy S. has links to articles which show this stuff in
detail; examples include pro-Microsoft "grass-roots support" letters to
newspapers from people who are /dead/. Other examples include
Microsoft's own emails in the court cases where these have been exposed
describing in detail how to get pro-Microsoft representatives onto
panels, doing presentations, and so on. More recent examples include
the populating of standards-bodies with Microsoft "partners" and
Microsoft's own employees to push OOXML, a completely proprietary pile
of junk that only a Windows zealot could love, through standards bodies,
some of which have /already/ approved ODF.
There is plenty more evidence of this kind of behaviour, but those
should keep you going for now.
>
> I just don't see this happening to the extent that Linux
> advocates are claiming
See my remarks above, also, there are /many/ more examples.
> and in fact if you compare the reputation
> that the Linux community has for being zealots to that
> of the Windows community it's no contest. Linux users
> for whatever reason have a reputation for that kind of stuff.
This is because there has been a huge, paid-for campaign to create that
impression. If you look on Windows fora and newsgroups of pretty much
any kind, you'll find few, if any, linux people posting on them. You'll
find here that virtually no pro-charter, on-topic poster here would ever
cross-post to a Windows group, for example. On the other hand, you'll
find any number of Microsoft and/or Windows trolls posting here, and in
pretty much any other arena where Linux is mentioned, and you'll find
/those/ people using terms like "linux zealots", when indeed, the
zealotry is very much on their part.
>
> As for defending Windows shills, I don't defend anyone but
> I also don't accuse people willy nilly of being paid shills
> without some verifiable proof.
There's plenty out there, just take a look.
Mark Kent
> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>
>> it is a piece of over priced junk. It's interesting
>> because he has never owned one.
>
> (as most Apple products are - except possibly Mac OS X).
>
> I also think the iTMS is over-hyped, iTunes itself is a nasty piece of
> unstable Bloatware (on the Windows platform at least), and that the
> whole concept of DRM is fundamentally immoral.
>
> But the iPod, as a piece of hardware, is quite nice. I just wish it
> played Ogg Vorbis and Theora files, then I wouldn't need to spend hours
> transcoding multimedia to non-Free formats in order to view them on the
> iPod.
>
That's precisely why I don't own such a machine...
Mark Kent
There was a big push against cola at the time. About the same time,
some Microsoft Zealots or Shills subscribed me to any number of mailing
lists and groups of all kinds, it was clearly coordinated, and clearly
an attempt to intimidate.
I'm used to the Windows zealot crowd trying to intimidate us here.
Roy Schestowitz
> [H]omer <sp...@uce.gov> espoused:
>> Verily I say unto thee, that waterskidoo spake thusly:
>>
>>> He doesn't like the fact that it is tied to iTunes and claims
>>> it is a piece of over priced junk. It's interesting
>>> because he has never owned one.
>>
>> I own one, and no I don't think they're junk, but they are overpriced
>> (as most Apple products are - except possibly Mac OS X).
>>
>> I also think the iTMS is over-hyped, iTunes itself is a nasty piece of
>> unstable Bloatware (on the Windows platform at least), and that the
>> whole concept of DRM is fundamentally immoral.
>>
>> But the iPod, as a piece of hardware, is quite nice. I just wish it
>> played Ogg Vorbis and Theora files, then I wouldn't need to spend hours
>> transcoding multimedia to non-Free formats in order to view them on the
>> iPod.
>>
>
> That's precisely why I don't own such a machine...
Worth mentioning again: http://www.youtube.com/v/YKI_w_VBoTQ
"Stop buying C.R.A.P".
--
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | Othello for free: http://othellomaster.com
http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
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