Why My Shop No Longer Sells Linux.
phoung
in a large metropolitan city. We cater mostly to small businesses and have
hardware, software and complete turnkey systems for sale. In addition we
offer consulting services for data systems including software. We started
the business 9 years ago and have managed to earn a decent living despite
the trend for shoppers to do business at big box stores like Compusa.
All of my full time employees are MSCE, CCNA and A+ certified at the very
least and I also have some part time help that I get from the local
college students looking to learn the business and make some spending
money.
In addition I have one employee who is RHCE because we have anticipated a
growth in that specialization although currently we are not seeing it grow
too quickly.
About a two years ago we decided to offer Linux as an alternative to
Windows mostly because we feel there is a future for Linux and that Linux
is a viable alternative to Windows.
We started small with a system built around MSI boards, Nvidia chipset
cards and other midline components. The idea was to offer a quality
desktop system at a price as good or lower than what our fully licensed
Windows machines would sell for.
Although our intent was to start with the home market, which is a large
portion of our business, these machines were of high enough quality for
24x7 commercial environments as well.
We did a little advertising, but the response was kind of low because
Linux is not exactly something people know enough about to shell out $700
on a system.
Our big break came when we attended a Linux install-fest, in fact we
helped sponsor it but were not part of the original group putting on the
event.
Word traveled quickly and soon we were selling a fair amount of Linux
machines, but only to a highly profile type customer. Mostly
students/people in technical areas of employment or education.
We rarely heard from these customers after the sale, and seeing as we
offer free 1 year support in addition to the manufacturers warranties for
various components, this was a good thing.
However all was not well because soon we made a major mistake in our
marketing. We offered a base machine, still quality parts and still 100
percent Linux compatable, but more of a consumer machine.
We sold about 70 of these systems to what I guess people would call
average citizen.
And that was a crucial mistake!
It wasn't long before the calls started coming in.
In no particular order:
How come:
AOL won't load?
My brother says Linux is crap and I was ripped off because Linux is free.
I can't use extra features from websites like toolbars.
My income tax program does not work.
I can't browse my favorite website.
I just bought a new printer/scanner/USB etc and I can't make it work.
How do I install Norton Anti-Virus (many calls like that).
I just signed up for broadband and the CD doesn't work.
Why can't I use the earthlink CD.
I want to play xxxyyyyzz game and can't get the disk to load.
This is AFTER we fully explained to the customer what Linux is, what it
isn't and what will work and what will not work.
People JUST DON'T LISTEN.
They want to save a dollar or two, but are not willing to learn something
new and in this case superior in order to do such.
In short, our Linux offerings turned into our worst nightmare and as best
we and our student friends and loyal Linux customers can figure it all
boils down to the lemming theory.
People want to be like, imitate and use the tools/cars/boats/mp3 players
and so forth that other people are using and they take a staunch attitude
in that regard and when another person, especially a family member or
close friend tells them they wasted their money on an incompatable Linux
computer, they will react and my phone starts ringing.
Unfortunately every family seems to have a computer *expert* and most of
them are village idiots.
Finally we made the decision to stop selling Linux systems because we just
were spending so much time supporting clueless users that we were
neglecting our other offerings and not making any money at the same time.
We still sell to students/techs who are informed about Linux and support
our local Linux user group.
In conclusion, in theory Linux is ready to meet citizen Joe, but citizen
Joe is not ready for Linux.
For every 60 year old grandma who can be set up with a basic Linux system
so she can communicate over the net, do email and such, there are 1000
people who are so locked into a Windows world that when they try Linux
they become a merchant's worst nightmare.
And I think I have met every single one of them.
Selling Windows systems generates income for me.
Selling Linux systems to citizen Joe generates headaches for me in terms
of support and my conclusions are that it is just not worth the extra work
to make a couple more dollars on the Linux systems.
Maybe this is why the major companies are hesitating with their Linux
offerings?
I am sure they have studied this from a business perspective and are
concerned about the support costs and ramafications of turning Linux loose
in the hands of the general public who have been weaned on Windows and
operate daily in what is essentially a Windows world.
Kindest Regards.
Phoung
Note, we did not receive a sigle call about a Linux system *failing* so to
speak, but our calls were about trying to interface Linux computers in
what is a Microsoft Windows world.
John Bailo
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> in a large metropolitan city.
You're sister makes a mean Supreme Fried Rice.
mlw
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> in a large metropolitan city.
Blah blah blah, how many times are you going to post this non-sense?
Peter T. Breuer
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
Troll post (cross-posted to advocacy). Do not follow up.
(Follow-up redirected AWAY from colm - try to keep the troll attempts
out of the non-crazies groups, eh folks?).
Peter
tab
This is not non-sense.
Even IF the story was made up, it is still happening
today. There is even an open source magazine
reporting on why Linux is not more adopted, because
of hardware issues.
Now, you tell me, why is linux not more popular on the desktop?
Hmmm?
Get your head out of the sand, and smell the coffee.
Ray Ingles
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> in a large metropolitan city.
Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
--
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
Microsoft Windows - It could be worse, but it'll take time.
Thomas Wootten
> On 2005-10-19, phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
>> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
>> in a large metropolitan city.
>
> Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
>
Hallmark of an urban legend...
In any case, that stuff sounds no different really from the calls that techs
get from Windows lusers. try www.techtales.com
--
Tom Wootten, Trinity Hall.
oof.trinhall.cam.ac.uk
There was only ever one valid use for the notorious <blink> tag:
Schrodinger's cat is <blink>not</blink> dead.
Ray Ingles
>> Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
>
> I prefer my privacy and don't need nor want to be harassed by overzealous
> Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
> their cause.
> I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
> attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
> anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
[...]
> It's been said that Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy is a dumping ground for Linux
> kooks and oddballs of various sorts and that it does virtually nothing to
> edify Linux.
If this is your reasoning, and your belief, it would seem that a more
efficient way to avoid 'harassment' would be not to post at all. What
purpose do you expect your post to serve?
--
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
Microsoft Windows - Let it get in YOUR way.
Linønut
"phoung" is another nym in the long list of nyms for this poster.
Note how phoung starts out with normal paragraph formatting, then
quickly devolves to the ragged paragraph formatting peculiar to this
particular troll.
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> in a large metropolitan city. We cater mostly to small businesses and have
> hardware, software and complete turnkey systems for sale. In addition we
> offer consulting services for data systems including software. We started
> the business 9 years ago and have managed to earn a decent living despite
> the trend for shoppers to do business at big box stores like Compusa.
>
> All of my full time employees are MSCE, CCNA and A+ certified at the very
> least and I also have some part time help that I get from the local
> college students looking to learn the business and make some spending
> money.
> In addition I have one employee who is RHCE because we have anticipated a
> growth in that specialization although currently we are not seeing it grow
> too quickly.
>
> . . .
>
> Note, we did not receive a sigle call about a Linux system *failing* so to
> speak, but our calls were about trying to interface Linux computers in
> what is a Microsoft Windows world.
If your story was legitimate (it is not), then you've simply provided
evidence that
1. You don't bother informing your customers.
2. You're no good after the sale.
You need to assess your customers needs up front. If they are not
comfortable with a few changes to non-Windows-specific habits, then do
not sell them a Linux solution.
However, most people are pretty savvy, and willing to take the leap if
they know you are there to support them.
Obviously, your group is not there to support them.
Shame on you.
--
Treat yourself to the devices, applications, and services running on the
GNU/Linux® operating system!
Linønut
> Hallmark of an urban legend...
>
> In any case, that stuff sounds no different really from the calls that techs
> get from Windows lusers. try www.techtales.com
http://www.techtales.com/stories/story1.html
Hello tech support.
Hello there young man. I'm having a problem with a computer I bought
from you.
What sort of problem is it ma'am?
It's frozen.or locked up.or whatever they call it.
Were you running a particular program when it happened?
I was playing solitaire. And now when I click on the card with the
circle in it, nothing happens.
Does the arrow on the screen still move when you move your mouse?
Let me see..yes it does.
Then I think the game of solitaire was over, there were no more
cards.
Oh no! And I was doing so well!
Probably an MCSE (Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert)
Linønut
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:34:25 -0400, Ray Ingles wrote:
>
>> On 2005-10-19, phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
>>> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
>>> in a large metropolitan city.
>>
>> Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
>
> Yes.
> I prefer my privacy and don't need nor want to be harassed by overzealous
> Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
> their cause.
> I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
> attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
> anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
You're a classic!
AZ Nomad
>Harassment is your term not mine. Expressing an opinion is one thing,
>invading a person's privacy is a completely different matter.
>Everyone has their opinion and are entitled to express it. The purpose of
>my post was to stimulate discussion, but it seems that it has started some
>kind of flame war instead and in effect is proving true what honest Linux
>users think about Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy as a group.
>This group does enough to damage Linux's reputation and quite frankly that
>was not my intention and I choose to not participate along that line of
>discussion.
You're as pathetic as a jehova's witness going into a synagogue, telling
everybody that they're going to hell and then whining about the complaints
he receives.
If you're going to post such garbage, at least try to back up your arguments
instead of resorting to incessant whining.
chrisv
>I prefer my privacy
Troll.
*plonk*
General Schvantzkoph
Don't overreact to this. The OP was commenting on human nature not on
Linux.
Normal human behavior is to master just enough of a technology so that it
solves their problems. They figure out how to do a task and then they
expect to do it the same way forever. They may not know how something
works they just know that it works even if it doesn't work well. Animals
do the same thing. My cat figured out that if he climbs up on the roof and
jumps off onto the back deck I'll hear the thump and let him in. He could
just meow, that would be easier and less painful, but he knows that
jumping off the roof works so that's what he does. If he were human he
would probably continue to use Windows no matter how many times he got a
virus, because that's what he would know how to do. The OP mentioned that
he had customers complaining that they couldn't run AOL on Linux. Why
would anyone want to use AOL in 2005? The Internet is the Internet and
Linux has lot's of browsers that are light years ahead of what AOL
provides. The reason is that there are lots of people who first
encountered the net through AOL, like my cat they've learned a means of
accomplishing a goal and they think that that's the only way to do it.
What the OP found out is that the vast majority of his non-technical
customers are exactly like my cat, they expect a computer to work a
certain way (the Windows way) and they can't imagine another way. His
decision not to offer Linux to non-technical users is probably the right
one from a business point of view. Unless he is willing to give these
users a training class (which would blow his profit margin) there is no
way he can make money selling Linux machines to people who can't spell OS.
Peter T. Breuer
>> "phoung" is another nym in the long list of nyms for this poster.
>>
>> Note how phoung starts out with normal paragraph formatting, then
>> quickly devolves to the ragged paragraph formatting peculiar to this
>> particular troll.
> Is that the best you can do?
> Attack my paragraph layout?
> I'm sorry but English is only my fourth language and I am not as good at
> it as I would like.
Complete nonsense. The english is perfect idiomatic native (and I DO
speak four languages). Just cease crossposting to COLM and take your
pretence elsewhere, "phoung".
Followups redirected.
> My story is completely true and I couldn't give 2 hoots what you think.
:-). Jeez, you'd think the guy could pretend not to speak english like
a native a little better!
The giveaway is the crosspost - and the subject matter, of course.
Peter
Linønut
> I can see that all my experiences have been wasted on this group because
> that concept seems to have flown right over your collective heads and
> that's a shame.
Good. That will teach you to post here.
(Actually, it won't, but what the heck.)
> I've said all I need to say and now will return to advocating Linux,
> discussing Linux and enjoying Linux with a more rational group of people
> instead of wasting my time with some kind of kooky cult comprised of
> members who are so blind they can't see the forest for the trees.
Here's an extra little *kick* to send you on your way.
> Some day you may see the error in your ways and you may realize that you
> could have been acknowledging Linux's weaknesses, helping to fix them and
> promoting Linux in a healthy and honest way.
> Too bad that by the time that happens it might be too late.
Catch ya later under a different name, I'm sure.
Linønut
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:50:13 -0500, Linųnutlinųnut wrote:
>
>
>> "phoung" is another nym in the long list of nyms for this poster.
>>
>> Note how phoung starts out with normal paragraph formatting, then
>> quickly devolves to the ragged paragraph formatting peculiar to this
>> particular troll.
>
> Is that the best you can do?
> Attack my paragraph layout?
You're not very perceptive, are you?
> My story is completely true and I couldn't give 2 hoots what you think.
No it isn't.
>> 1. You don't bother informing your customers.
>
> You don't read very well do you?
> I'll post it again.
>
> "This is AFTER we fully explained to the customer what Linux is, what it
> isn't and what will work and what will not work."
Since the whole thing is a fabrication, it hardly matters, hmm?
>> 2. You're no good after the sale.
>
> I find it insulting that you question my ability while ignoring the fact a
> small operator can compete with the big box stores.
You're a good troll, "phoung".
>> However, most people are pretty savvy, and willing to take the leap if
>> they know you are there to support them.
>
> No they are not.
> Are you in the retail computer business?
Not now. I was, for awhile.
> That is why people want to use what other people are using.
And yet you let them use Linux, eh?
> You really should spend some time attempting to understand the consumer,
> the average consumer, before you go spouting nonsense.
I'm not the one who let them flounder, in this tale you tell.
> You really need to get an education.
Your alleged customers are the ones needing to get an education, and
you're letting them down.
> All in all that was an extremely poor attempt at trying to discredit me.
Sorry, "phoung", I was merely pretending, for a moment, that your story
was true.
>> Shame on you.
>
> No. Shame on you for not reading and assuming you know what you are
> talking about when it's obvious you don't.
> Take a course at the local community college and learn something about the
> retail business rather than making a fool of yourself.
Profound words to accompany your patently false story.
Linønut
> In comp.os.linux.misc phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:50:13 -0500, Linonutlinonut wrote:
>>> "phoung" is another nym in the long list of nyms for this poster.
>
>> My story is completely true and I couldn't give 2 hoots what you think.
>
> :-). Jeez, you'd think the guy could pretend not to speak english like
> a native a little better!
>
> The giveaway is the crosspost - and the subject matter, of course.
Actually, I find "phoung", "Jorge", "Stephanie", and all of the other
all-too-similar incarnations of this troll to be quite amusing. It is a
good lesson in how to keep a thread going.
This guy is almost as good at that as billwg.
I especially like the sense of sincerity and the hurt tone he conveys.
A master at work!
He ought to be a Microsoft Evangelist.
Nah. He's not insulting enough.
Linønut
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:50:13 -0500, Linųnutlinųnut wrote:
>
> Don't overreact to this. The OP was commenting on human nature not on
> Linux.
I know. It is obvious he is a troll.
> Normal human behavior is to master just enough of a technology so that it
> solves their problems. They figure out how to do a task and then they
> expect to do it the same way forever.
Yes, and "phoung" was using this true attribute of human behavior as
bait for his troll.
Thomas Wootten
> Harassment is your term not mine. Expressing an opinion is one thing,
> invading a person's privacy is a completely different matter.
> Everyone has their opinion and are entitled to express it. The purpose of
> my post was to stimulate discussion, but it seems that it has started some
> kind of flame war instead and in effect is proving true what honest Linux
> users think about Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy as a group.
the best approach to flames is to simply laugh at them. because many of them
are truly laughable.
> This group does enough to damage Linux's reputation
from what I've seen that wouldn't suprise me.
7
> Note, we did not receive a sigle call about a Linux system *failing* so to
> speak, but our calls were about trying to interface Linux computers in
> what is a Microsoft Windows world.
What it means is that you have stopped innovating.
It was micoshaft that caused you to do that.
If you want to go belly up and fall down thats your business.
The world has no place for people like you.
Keith Keller
On 2005-10-19, Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, and "phoung" was using this true attribute of human behavior as
> bait for his troll.
Obviously the bait worked. :( Can y'all please keep followups to the
phuong/all his other aliases troll out of c.o.l.m.? Thanks.
--keith
--
kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Nigel Feltham
> "People JUST DON'T LISTEN.
> They want to save a dollar or two, but are not willing to learn something
> new and in this case superior in order to do such."
True - I've had experience of this myself, some people tend to not learn how
to solve a problem but prefer to just memorise a specific set of
instructions and get out of their depth if they get a different problem
(and I don't just mean computing - I've known people who took years to
start using their microwaves as their way of cooking didn't fit the change
to new hardware).
> No they are not.
> Are you in the retail computer business?
> If not you really should spend some time in that profession before you go
> off showing your ignorance.
> People are LAZY.
> That is why the clocks on VCR's sit flashing at 12:00:00.
> That is why people use AOL even when they have a broadband account.
I've a work colleague who thinks things like mail filtering and news on the
homepage are only available on AOL and is using this as an excuse to stay
on dialup when he could get a budget broadband link cheaper (he thinks
AOL's expensive broadband is the only one to offer the service he's getting
on dialup). That's one member of a department where the other 4 of are all
on different broadband providers and all get similar service to his AOL.
> It's impossible to support a person who, even after being schooled in what
> Linux can and cannot do, calls and asks why they can't run AOL or "Call To
> Duty" on their Linux computer and even worse why their $300 copy of MS
> Office doesn't work anymore.
Have you tried explaining that their system already has an MS Office
compatible package installed, or that installing the WINE package from
their Linux CD will allow them to install their copy of MS Office (or offer
to sell them Crossover Office, a version of WINE optimised to run Windows
Office Applications)?
For games why not point them to www.linuxgames.com which has info on running
current games on Linux (many do run under WINE) or stock Cedega (which does
include 'Call Of Duty' on the list of working games) from
www.transgaming.com as an optional addon. This info should be included in
the starter kit you include with the machines.
phoung
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:50:13 -0500, Linųnutlinųnut wrote:
>
> Don't overreact to this. The OP was commenting on human nature not on
> Linux.
Precisely.
A point which went right over the heads of people, like unknown, who
selectively read a message and focus in on the points they choose to
attack while ignoring the context in which thery are presented.
>
> virus, because that's what he would know how to do. The OP mentioned that
> he had customers complaining that they couldn't run AOL on Linux. Why
> would anyone want to use AOL in 2005? The Internet is the Internet and
> Linux has lot's of browsers that are light years ahead of what AOL
> provides. The reason is that there are lots of people who first
> encountered the net through AOL, like my cat they've learned a means of
> accomplishing a goal and they think that that's the only way to do it.
It's even worse when these customers have a broadband account and are
paying for that as well as AOL when obviously they don't need to.
> What the OP found out is that the vast majority of his non-technical
> customers are exactly like my cat, they expect a computer to work a
> certain way (the Windows way) and they can't imagine another way. His
> decision not to offer Linux to non-technical users is probably the right
> one from a business point of view. Unless he is willing to give these
> users a training class (which would blow his profit margin) there is no
> way he can make money selling Linux machines to people who can't spell OS.
We offer support before, during and after the sale. Like I said, a book, a
starting with linux guide and up front information letting them know for
example that AOL will not work.
Office will not work, please don't start with crossover office I prefer to
run one operating system and progams designed for that operating system
and not a kludge.
Customers are not interested in classes.
We tried that with Windows and got poor response to it.
People want to walk in, pick a unit, go home and plug it in and start
using it.
They want what everyone else is using and they don't like being the square
peg in a round hole.
It's human nature.
What ignorant people like unknown need to learn is that just because they
have the skill to use Linux and just because they are willing to put up
with Linux's idiosynchrosies, the average person is not and what it boils
down to is the consumer is willing to pay more to get less just so they
can use what the rest of their friends are using and that is Windows.
There has to be something to this argument because the major vendors are
for the most part ignoring Linux, or if they do support it they do so in a
half assed manner.
I have several suppliers that also sell to the big box stores and I learn
a lot from them. Store/shelf space is highly valuable and getting an
endcap in a store like Staples requires money and more importantly a
PRODUCT THAT CAN BE SOLD FOR A PROFIT. The money up front from the
distributor is just insurance in case the product bombs.
Next time you are in a big box store, even a supermarket, take a look at
what products are at eye level and which ones are down on the bottom
shelves.
If you think they place things just anywhere they will fit you are an
idiot.
The reason you don't see Linux on prime shelf space is because it doesn't
sell.
The reason you don't see Linux PC's at Staples is because the support will
be a nightmare for the staff.
The reason you DO see Linux PC's at Walmart, but only online is because
Walmart is so big that they can make it up on the next customer. In
addition the systems are carefully chosen and are grossly overpriced for
the substandard hardware they include.
Getting shelf space at Walmart is like a 24x7 Home Shopping Club where
distributors have to present their prodcut to Walmart buyers and sell them
on it.
Profit margins are very tight, but exposure is good.
I have found that for an average consumer, trying to sell them a Linux PC
is virtually impossible over the long haul. However, selling to the local
college, technical people or in a turnkey system like POS it works rather
well and we still offer those services. There is an advertisement that
runs where I live for a clothing store chain that says " an educated
consumer is our best customer" and I agree that with Linux that statement
is true. Unfortunately 99 percent of the market are lemmings and simply
don't care and that is the reason why Linux is not feasible as a mass
marketed product but IS a good niche product. Phoung
It's a shame that out of all the responses you are the only one to see the
point.
phoung
> True - I've had experience of this myself, some people tend to not learn how
> to solve a problem but prefer to just memorise a specific set of
> instructions and get out of their depth if they get a different problem
> (and I don't just mean computing - I've known people who took years to
> start using their microwaves as their way of cooking didn't fit the change
> to new hardware).
I myself am guilty of this.
For years I have used non-microwave designed cookware in the microwave and
have been suffering.
>
> I've a work colleague who thinks things like mail filtering and news on the
> homepage are only available on AOL and is using this as an excuse to stay
> on dialup when he could get a budget broadband link cheaper (he thinks
> AOL's expensive broadband is the only one to offer the service he's getting
> on dialup). That's one member of a department where the other 4 of are all
> on different broadband providers and all get similar service to his AOL.
The most common comment we would get was, WebMD, they (AOL) scan for virus
and parent controls.
They would also complain about plugins for AIM not working with Linux
programs like kopete. To me, this is a good thing, but go figure.
> Have you tried explaining that their system already has an MS Office
> compatible package installed, or that installing the WINE package from
> their Linux CD will allow them to install their copy of MS Office (or offer
> to sell them Crossover Office, a version of WINE optimised to run Windows
> Office Applications)?
Yes and in fact Openoffice was one of the high points of Linux. We have
gotten very positive comments about it.
The upset clients were upset not because they couldn't perform office
tasks, but that they paid a lot of money for Office and now could not use
it.
It was more of a perception thing rather than a real problem.
IOW I have a 120gb WD drive but I want to use my old Maxtor 120gb drive
just because.
I differ with Linux users that support wine. I do not believe wine is
doing anything good for Linux but is just furthering the myth that
Microsoft has better applications.
> For games why not point them to www.linuxgames.com which has info on running
> current games on Linux (many do run under WINE) or stock Cedega (which does
> include 'Call Of Duty' on the list of working games) from
> www.transgaming.com as an optional addon. This info should be included in
> the starter kit you include with the machines.
Actually we do have www.linuxgames listed.
People complained of compatability problems running the games.
However on a positive note, we had several comments about how good the
linux games were for younger children and how it was nice to have simple,
fun to play addictive games instead of involved sagas that take weeks to
master.
Maybe I have given the impression that every single Linux computer came
back and that is not the case. We have had many happy clients, but in the
overall scheme of things, the unhappy ones are taking up way to much of
our time and resources.
phoung
My business has never been better.
I am going on my 10th year and doing very, very, very well.
Why are you so hostile and why did you change the subject line, and screw
it up on top of that.
You really should find out why you are so angry.
Maybe therapy would be the correct solution to your problems.
You will live a lot longer if you learn to accept other peoples opinions
instead of believing that you and only you are the one true source for
information.
7
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:18:54 +0000, 7 wrote:
>
>> phoung wrote:
>>
>>> Note, we did not receive a sigle call about a Linux system *failing* so
>>> to speak, but our calls were about trying to interface Linux computers
>>> in what is a Microsoft Windows world.
>>
>>
>> What it means is that you have stopped innovating.
>> It was micoshaft that caused you to do that.
>> If you want to go belly up and fall down thats your business.
>> The world has no place for people like you.
>
> My business has never been better.
> I am going on my 10th year and doing very, very, very well.
Then why are you crying?
People who are doing very well have no reason to be wasting
time sobbing or working as an astroturfer for micoshaft.
peterwn
entering a new chapter in its exisence in a few years time - Chapter
11, when MS Windows and Office have become also-ran's especially when
MS's iron grip over hardware makers and computer suppliers loosens.
John Bailo
> Maybe you should find a hobby like stamp collecting or something social,
> like a gym, where you can interact with other people and learn to
> socialize with other people.
On a similar note, stamp collecting...a neglected hobby to while away the
hours.
--
360 updated 10/5
http://360.yahoo.com/manfrommars_43
TJ
I have 44 years of experience in running a retail operation, though
obviously I sell a product line other than computers. I started at the
age of 12, and the same business is still going, quite successfully.
Much of retail is the same whatever the product, so I think I can speak
intelligently on the subject.
Much of what you say above is true, especially the part about shelf
space and product placement in the big box stores. You are also correct
when you say that Linux is a good niche product but not good for mass
marketing. There are a few things you still need to learn, though.
You were incorrect in your original post when you said something like,
"Linux is be ready for Joe Citizen, but Joe Citizen isn't ready for
Linux." Linux is NOT ready for Joe Citizen, at least not yet. It's
getting closer all the time, but it still has a long way to go. There is
no OS that is truly "ready for Joe Citizen." No OS, be it Linux,
Windows, Mac OS, or one of the others, will be ready for Joe Citizen
until he can, as you say, take it home, plug it in, and use it. Each OS
has a niche. It's just that some niches are bigger than others. The
balance of those niches is dynamic. Work with it instead of fighting it.
Do not dismiss niche products. Your willingness to fill niches is a
large part of your success in competing with those big box stores. You
can make a pretty good buck filling niches ignored by the big guys, if
you do it the right way. Trust me. I've been doing that for most of a
lifetime.
You tried to stretch a successful niche in a new direction. It didn't
work this time. Maybe it's just that your timing wasn't right. Don't
give up on it, if you think it may still have merit, someday. Times will
change, and its time may come yet.
One other thing...some of your statements above indicate you are losing
respect for your customers' intelligence. Don't. It is the most fatal
mistake you can make.
TJ
Ku Karlovsky
wrote in message <<dj60i2$fod$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>>:
> My sister and I
Is your sister a fish, too?
John Bailo
> Much of what you say above is true, especially the part about shelf
> space and product placement in the big box stores. You are also correct
> when you say that Linux is a good niche product but not good for mass
> marketing.
That is absolutely right.
But it doesn't mean that large numbers of PCs can't run Linux -- in fact,
they are and they will.
Linux is not about "product placement" in "big box stores". Linux is the
product of the 21st century not the 20th (windows) or 19th (osx). Linux
is a "personal" operating system, completely owned by the user...completely
customizable by the seller.
YouCanToo
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> hardware, software and complete turnkey systems for sale. In addition we
> offer consulting services for data systems including software. We started
> the business 9 years ago and have managed to earn a decent living despite
> the trend for shoppers to do business at big box stores like Compusa.
>
> All of my full time employees are MSCE, CCNA and A+ certified at the very
> least and I also have some part time help that I get from the local
> college students looking to learn the business and make some spending
> money.
> In addition I have one employee who is RHCE because we have anticipated a
> growth in that specialization although currently we are not seeing it grow
> too quickly.
>
> About a two years ago we decided to offer Linux as an alternative to
> Windows mostly because we feel there is a future for Linux and that Linux
> is a viable alternative to Windows.
>
> We started small with a system built around MSI boards, Nvidia chipset
> cards and other midline components. The idea was to offer a quality
> desktop system at a price as good or lower than what our fully licensed
> Windows machines would sell for.
> Although our intent was to start with the home market, which is a large
> portion of our business, these machines were of high enough quality for
> 24x7 commercial environments as well.
> We did a little advertising, but the response was kind of low because
> Linux is not exactly something people know enough about to shell out $700
> on a system.
> Our big break came when we attended a Linux install-fest, in fact we
> helped sponsor it but were not part of the original group putting on the
> event.
> Word traveled quickly and soon we were selling a fair amount of Linux
> machines, but only to a highly profile type customer. Mostly
> students/people in technical areas of employment or education.
> We rarely heard from these customers after the sale, and seeing as we
> offer free 1 year support in addition to the manufacturers warranties for
> various components, this was a good thing.
>
> However all was not well because soon we made a major mistake in our
> marketing. We offered a base machine, still quality parts and still 100
> percent Linux compatable, but more of a consumer machine.
> We sold about 70 of these systems to what I guess people would call
> average citizen.
>
> And that was a crucial mistake!
> It wasn't long before the calls started coming in.
> In no particular order:
>
> How come:
>
> AOL won't load?
> My brother says Linux is crap and I was ripped off because Linux is free.
> I can't use extra features from websites like toolbars.
> My income tax program does not work.
> I can't browse my favorite website.
> I just bought a new printer/scanner/USB etc and I can't make it work.
> How do I install Norton Anti-Virus (many calls like that).
> I just signed up for broadband and the CD doesn't work.
> Why can't I use the earthlink CD.
> I want to play xxxyyyyzz game and can't get the disk to load.
>
> This is AFTER we fully explained to the customer what Linux is, what it
> isn't and what will work and what will not work.
>
> They want to save a dollar or two, but are not willing to learn something
> new and in this case superior in order to do such.
>
> we and our student friends and loyal Linux customers can figure it all
> boils down to the lemming theory.
>
> People want to be like, imitate and use the tools/cars/boats/mp3 players
> and so forth that other people are using and they take a staunch attitude
> in that regard and when another person, especially a family member or
> close friend tells them they wasted their money on an incompatable Linux
> computer, they will react and my phone starts ringing.
> Unfortunately every family seems to have a computer *expert* and most of
> them are village idiots.
>
> Finally we made the decision to stop selling Linux systems because we just
> were spending so much time supporting clueless users that we were
> neglecting our other offerings and not making any money at the same time.
>
> We still sell to students/techs who are informed about Linux and support
> our local Linux user group.
>
> In conclusion, in theory Linux is ready to meet citizen Joe, but citizen
> Joe is not ready for Linux.
> For every 60 year old grandma who can be set up with a basic Linux system
> so she can communicate over the net, do email and such, there are 1000
> people who are so locked into a Windows world that when they try Linux
> they become a merchant's worst nightmare.
>
> And I think I have met every single one of them.
>
> Selling Windows systems generates income for me.
> Selling Linux systems to citizen Joe generates headaches for me in terms
> of support and my conclusions are that it is just not worth the extra work
> to make a couple more dollars on the Linux systems.
>
> Maybe this is why the major companies are hesitating with their Linux
> offerings?
> I am sure they have studied this from a business perspective and are
> concerned about the support costs and ramafications of turning Linux loose
> in the hands of the general public who have been weaned on Windows and
> operate daily in what is essentially a Windows world.
>
> Kindest Regards.
> Phoung
>
> Note, we did not receive a sigle call about a Linux system *failing* so to
> speak, but our calls were about trying to interface Linux computers in
> what is a Microsoft Windows world.
Can we say TROLL TROLL TROLL
dave stanton
Its just a rehash of some crap that was posted a while ago.
Dave
dave stanton
> Can we say TROLL TROLL TROLL
Yes and we can also say dont repost crap !!! Learn to edit posts.
Dave
Longfellow
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
Phoung, I've no idea whether or not you're a troll, and I really don't
care. If you are, you've screwed up because you've related nothing that
isn't already acknowledged by us all. If you are not, then you have had
the unfortunate experience of having your story already so badly abused
by the trolls that no-one will listen to you. Peter Breuer says you are
a troll, and I tend to listen when Breuer speaks, because in general he
knows whereof he does so. But in the end, none of this makes any
difference at all.
The real point of this entire thread is that the knee-jerk plonkers have
so badly responded that the most relevant facts have been entirely
missed. And that, in this forum, is both to be expected, and is also
tragic.
Because the truth is this: THIS IS *NOT* THE FAULT OF LINUX!!!
This entire business is the result of one of the true Machiavellian
characters of our time: Gates 2. Yep, big daddy.
WHG2 saw in his autistic son an opportunity to acquire a level of power
rarely achievable by any means. He had a son that was a natural born
corporate killer. A Risk demon that finally got so bad a rep no one
would play with him. Solution? Turn him loose in the business world!!!
When IBM decided to play the desktop game, Mama Gates was already in the
know, as she had social contacts with the relevant IBM executive corp.
It was a slam dunk to steer them Trey's way after Kildall's wife didn't
get caught by the NDA trap IBM thought was so fool-proof. After all,
think about it: who the hell had ever heard of Micro-Soft at that
point? With that contact, Trey was off and running, with daddy firmly
in command behind the throne.
The result? An entire culture of digital appliance users carefully
trained to expect to be fleeced on a regular basis. Daddy saw to it
that Trey had his lock on every PC compatible by playing nice with IBM
until it was time to screw the Big Blue and take all the chips. Few
people in the core of the industry were unaware that hardware
development was going to be explosive, especially by the time Moore's
law was demonstrated, and there were no real barriers to miniaturization
for quite a while. Smaller and more powerful, doubling every 18 months
to two years.
They were predicting the complete communications center that would be PC
driven and include the radio, TV, electronic house control, etc etc etc.
Didn't happen, of course, but the concept of the PC as appliance was
touted from the get go. But the real evil part of it was that the
entire clientele was carefully trained to understand that computers are
*harder than rocket science!!!* So the incremental steps in PC
development, for which the end user paid over and over again, was a
brilliant decision. For WinTel, that is...
This is not to say that the development was a slam dunk because it was
anything but. But the sense that the wave was going to last for years
if not decades was already in place. Milk each stage financially as
much as possible. And they did.
Now the public is locked in to the religion of "where do you (the
butterfly) want to go today", just as firmly as they are locked into all
the other religions they carry.
But it is a burden they carry lightly, because in the last analysis, the
public really doesn't give a damn about computers!!! PCs are just
another lovely consumer toy to play with. Communication? Get real! If
you want to talk to someone, the telephone is right there. Nothing the
computer offers is really needful, so they think. So they put up with
Microsoft's garbage ware because it's what they were trained to, and it
takes up a very small part of their concept of what their lives are all
about.
Never mind that they are spending more and more time on the computer
both at work and at home; they simply measure that against the time they
spend watchin TV and shrug it all off as inconsequential.
How many people out there are math-phobic because they were taught that
math was *hard*. Same thing with computers. How many people out there
are brand loyal because they see themselves identified thus? Same thing
with computers. How many people out there equate the ability to pay
money for anything and everything with their image of success (whether
or not they can do so is irrelevant)? That's what they do with
computers.
And on and on and on.
So, once more, folks: *THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF LINUX!!!*
You guys should understand that sometimes the trolls are truthful in
spite of themselves, and you do your entire purpose here a disservice
when you fail to recognize this. So hitch up your pants, decide to put
the childish bullshit away, and get on with what this is supposed to be
all about here.
1) Identify a troll? Ignore s/h/it!!!
2) Identify a bogus issue? Tell it like it is and then walk away!!!
3) Identify a relevant issue? Address it honestly, regardless of what
the trolls would or would not have you do. If it arises, discuss it
amongst yourselves and leave the trolls input hanging on the end of a
subthread as if it had never been posted!!!
In short, GROW UP, you guys. Linux is far too important for you to piss
away with your really poor imitation of the harassed experts. Experts
don't play those games, they just remain silent, and most of you troll
chasers should learn to do the same.
Longfellow
William Poaster
Karlovsky console, was as follows:
Hmm......I was wondering about that. I didn't see the original post, so
either it was x-posted (for nefarious reasons) or it's another one of
Flatso's nyms....
--
slashdot users make Jerry
Springer's audience look
like the Vatican Council.
- Jeremy Malcolm http://jmalcolm.ilaw.com.au/ -
Peter Köhlmann
< snip flatfish droppings >
Hi, Traci / ling_ting_tong / flatfish
You lately posted as
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Fontain, Vladimir Yepifano, Walter Bubniak, Wang Mycock, Whizzer, Wilbur J,
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Plus many, many, many more.
--
What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic
simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog,
we can assume it will be pretty bad. --- Dave Barry
Ray Ingles
>> On 2005-10-19, phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
^^^^^^^^
>>> Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
>>> their cause.
>>> I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
>>> attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
>>> anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
>> [...]
>>> It's been said that Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy is a dumping ground for Linux
>>> kooks and oddballs of various sorts and that it does virtually nothing to
>>> edify Linux.
>>
>> If this is your reasoning, and your belief, it would seem that a more
>> efficient way to avoid 'harassment' would be not to post at all. What
>> purpose do you expect your post to serve?
>
> Harassment is your term not mine.
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. Can you clarify how 'being
harassed' is different from 'harassment'?
> The purpose of my post was to stimulate discussion...
Of what? My parents and my five-year-old child have no problems using
Linux. (*Boy* was I surprised when I found that he had figured out how to
reboot the computer from Windows to Linux. (Yes, he prefers the games on
Linux.))
I don't doubt there are people who have problems using Linux, no system
is right for everyone. But what I find interesting is that your story
sounds eerily similar to these:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/90ee2c8fbe0876fd
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/dae1c4cbd652c95a
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/a8420fd1dfd32823
Very similar phrasing and content, by people who also provide absolutely
no verification or identifying information and have absolutely no posting
history, who appear for a few days and then vanish, never to be heard
from again.
Why, one might almost think they were the same people...
--
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Sooner or later the first system is finished, and the
architect, with firm confidence and a demonstrated mastery
of that class of system, is ready to build a second system.
This second system is the most dangerous system a man ever
designs." - Fred Brooks, in "The Mythical Man-Month"
mlw
>>Blah blah blah, how many times are you going to post this non-sense?
>
> This is not non-sense.
really?
>
> Even IF the story was made up, it is still happening
> today. There is even an open source magazine
> reporting on why Linux is not more adopted, because
> of hardware issues.
"Hardware issues" is a very broad brush. I don't think that has much to do
with Linux at all. Sure, some things don't work, but most things do.
>
> Now, you tell me, why is linux not more popular on the desktop?
> Hmmm?
That's easy. Totally easy. Microsoft monopoly and FUD machine. Fortunately,
Windows is so bad, people are deperate to move away. Windows users are
buying Macs in huge numbers, BTW don't say it is a "hardware issue" when
people are willing to buy whole new computers.
The issue is public awareness. The IT industry and those around it are very
familiar with Linux, but the general computer user most likely doesn't know
about it or is only heard about it in passing.
The word is spreading, slowly for sure, but spreading. As the Mac becomes
more and more popular, monopolistic lock-ins of Microsoft will become less
and less effective. That creates opportunity for competition.
TJ
part.<Grin>) But, we are only 5 years into the 21st century. It may take
more time and development before Linux is ready for the masses. I think
the OP just jumped in the deeper part of the pool a bit too quickly. We
are close - so very close - but we're not there yet. We need to be
patient just a little while longer.
TJ
Nigel Feltham
> The word is spreading, slowly for sure, but spreading. As the Mac becomes
> more and more popular, monopolistic lock-ins of Microsoft will become less
> and less effective. That creates opportunity for competition.
It may help more than you think - when Apple switch to Intel then what about
someone producing a WINE style API translator for Mac software (unless this
already exists for Mac Linux - I know there's MOL but this needs to boot a
real copy of OSX inside linux).
This won't help Apple much (unless they're the ones selling the API
translator) but could hurt MS a lot when buyers have a choice of Apple
Systems that run Mac software, Windows systems that run Windows software or
Linux systems that can run Linux, Mac and Most Windows software (even
better if application developers sell Windows and Mac versions in same box
giving linux users a chance to pick whichever of the 2 runs best).
How many computer buyers are going to choose a system that can only run it's
own software (other than the dedicated Mac buyers) when they can get a
similarly (or maybe lower) priced Linux system that can run software
written for all 3 platforms.
Apple will always sell to those who want the machine for how it looks, MS
don't have this advantage and will have machines that physically look the
same as the linux ones when PC companies start offering a choice of OS.
Game over for MS?
phoung
> On 2005-10-19, phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
>> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
>> in a large metropolitan city.
>
> Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
Yes.
I prefer my privacy and don't need nor want to be harassed by overzealous
Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
their cause.
I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
I find that the people in my LUG are of a completely different mindset and
prefer to spend time improving Linux in whatever way they can as opposed
to acting like religious zealots. Most of them use Windows, some use OSX
and of course almost all use Linux. We have had some very successful
install fests and at the same time we have had complaints about Linux. Our
attitude is that Linux, while a superior operating system, is just not
ready to replace Windows in many situations and citizen Joe and his family
desktop is one where Linux does not do well, for the reasons I have
already stated.
It's my experience based on what happened when I tried to offer Linux in
my shop.
It has also been the experience of my LUG, students and professors that I
am friends with as well.
All avid Linux users, but they are living in a real world instead of some
fairy tale where Linux gets the princess at the end of every story.
It's been said that Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy is a dumping ground for Linux
kooks and oddballs of various sorts and that it does virtually nothing to
edify Linux.
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, I don't know nor do I really care because
it's obvious there is a core group of people that post here and they have
a carefully defined agenda and that is to discredit, no matter how weak
the argument, any person who does not agree with them.
That technique doesn't work very well because they end up over using it
and in the end they just look like fools to other people who may just be
stopping in to read a few messages.
In other words, after a while, they begin to sound paranoid like loose
cannons or something.
Most of the people in my LUG read this group, maybe some will chime in.
They know who I am and they know about Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy and get a
hearty laugh from it much like anyone with an open mind will.
phoung
> On 2005-10-19, phoung <pho...@consultant.com> wrote:
>>> Is there a reason why you are concealing all identifying information?
>>
>> Yes.
>> I prefer my privacy and don't need nor want to be harassed by overzealous
>> Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
>> their cause.
>> I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
>> attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
>> anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
> [...]
>> It's been said that Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy is a dumping ground for Linux
>> kooks and oddballs of various sorts and that it does virtually nothing to
>> edify Linux.
>
> If this is your reasoning, and your belief, it would seem that a more
> efficient way to avoid 'harassment' would be not to post at all. What
> purpose do you expect your post to serve?
Harassment is your term not mine. Expressing an opinion is one thing,
invading a person's privacy is a completely different matter.
Everyone has their opinion and are entitled to express it. The purpose of
my post was to stimulate discussion, but it seems that it has started some
kind of flame war instead and in effect is proving true what honest Linux
users think about Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy as a group.
This group does enough to damage Linux's reputation and quite frankly that
was not my intention and I choose to not participate along that line of
discussion.
I was only pointing out where Linux users are going to run into
trouble when they try to convert Windows users to Linux.
Knowing what potential problems might exist can prove valuable toward
finding solutions before jumping into a project which may turn ugly.
I can see that all my experiences have been wasted on this group because
that concept seems to have flown right over your collective heads and
that's a shame.
I've said all I need to say and now will return to advocating Linux,
discussing Linux and enjoying Linux with a more rational group of people
instead of wasting my time with some kind of kooky cult comprised of
members who are so blind they can't see the forest for the trees.
Some day you may see the error in your ways and you may realize that you
could have been acknowledging Linux's weaknesses, helping to fix them and
promoting Linux in a healthy and honest way.
Too bad that by the time that happens it might be too late.
Kind Regards.
Phoung
phoung
> "phoung" is another nym in the long list of nyms for this poster.
>
> Note how phoung starts out with normal paragraph formatting, then
> quickly devolves to the ragged paragraph formatting peculiar to this
> particular troll.
Is that the best you can do?
Attack my paragraph layout?
I'm sorry but English is only my fourth language and I am not as good at
it as I would like.
I leave spaces between paragraphs and sentences to make it easier on the
eyes to read.
Had I run everything together you would be complaining about that as well.
> If your story was legitimate (it is not), then you've simply provided
> evidence that
My story is completely true and I couldn't give 2 hoots what you think.
> 1. You don't bother informing your customers.
You don't read very well do you?
I'll post it again.
"This is AFTER we fully explained to the customer what Linux is, what it
isn't and what will work and what will not work."
In addition we included a copy of "Linux for Dummies" the quick reference
guide with every Linux machine.
> 2. You're no good after the sale.
I wouldn't be going on my 10th year in business if I wasn't.
How do you think I can compete with Compusa, Staples and Officemax?
I can't beat their prices, I can only offer service and that is what I
have done and THAT is the reason for my success.
I find it insulting that you question my ability while ignoring the fact a
small operator can compete with the big box stores.
But I should realize that it is all part of the agenda to discredit me in
any way that you can.
It's really pretty said how ignorant you are about the needs of consumers.
> You need to assess your customers needs up front. If they are not
> comfortable with a few changes to non-Windows-specific habits, then do
> not sell them a Linux solution.
Once again you fail to read.
I will post it again:
"People JUST DON'T LISTEN.
They want to save a dollar or two, but are not willing to learn something
new and in this case superior in order to do such."
> However, most people are pretty savvy, and willing to take the leap if
> they know you are there to support them.
No they are not.
Are you in the retail computer business?
If not you really should spend some time in that profession before you go
off showing your ignorance.
People are LAZY.
That is why the clocks on VCR's sit flashing at 12:00:00.
That is why people use AOL even when they have a broadband account.
That is why people want to use what other people are using.
You really should spend some time attempting to understand the consumer,
the average consumer, before you go spouting nonsense.
> Obviously, your group is not there to support them.
See above.
It's impossible to support a person who, even after being schooled in what
Linux can and cannot do, calls and asks why they can't run AOL or "Call To
Duty" on their Linux computer and even worse why their $300 copy of MS
Office doesn't work anymore.
We have a "Getting Started With Linux" guide that is also included and it
explains things like this.
We also offer a YEAR of support included.
AND THAT is how we compete with the big box stores.
You really need to get an education.
All in all that was an extremely poor attempt at trying to discredit me.
> Shame on you.
No. Shame on you for not reading and assuming you know what you are
talking about when it's obvious you don't.
Take a course at the local community college and learn something about the
retail business rather than making a fool of yourself.
phoung
I'm not crying, but you sure sound like you have some emotional problems.
The undertones of conspiracy theories are particularly troublesome.
I am just pointing out the possible pitfalls that a VAR or sys integrator
is going to encounter when trying to integrate Linux into the product base.
If your limited education, experience or refusal to see another persons
perspective prevents you from dealing with this topic, why not move
elsewhere instead of making an ass of yourself?
I know this is all going way over your head because, and don't take this
the wrong way, you seem to be a teenager with some serious problems facing
reality.
Mark Kent
phoung <pho...@consultant.com> espoused:
> I prefer my privacy and don't need nor want to be harassed by overzealous
> Linux users, no matter their intent, who may see my post as a threat to
> their cause.
^^^^^^^^^^^ their cause? Ah, Mr Wintroll, your position is
clear... apparently, every linux user, /apart from you/ has a
cause...
> I think the responses to this message speak for themselves about the
> attitude of some Linux advocates. I can be contacted via email should
> anyone wish to take the discussion offline.
As you don't know what the responses to this message will be until
they've been posted, you would appear to be, err, trolling. Equally,
if you wanted to be offline, why post at all?
>
> I find that the people in my LUG are of a completely different mindset and
And that LUG is?
> prefer to spend time improving Linux in whatever way they can as opposed
> to acting like religious zealots. Most of them use Windows, some use OSX
> and of course almost all use Linux.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Err, this is a LUG, right? and some of them are there
because they were trying to get to the model railway
club, but picked the wrong door?
> We have had some very successful
> install fests and at the same time we have had complaints about Linux.
And when were they, and where were they, then? Who came? What
was the LUG again?
> Our
> attitude
^^^^^^^^
How many people do you speak for, oh wise one? And the LUG was?
> is that Linux, while a superior operating system, is just not
> ready to replace Windows in many situations and citizen Joe and his family
> desktop is one where Linux does not do well, for the reasons I have
> already stated.
Not many such situations left now, I think... best not to try to post
them here, though - people would realise how few there were, if you did!
>
> It's my experience based on what happened when I tried to offer Linux in
> my shop.
Your shop? What shop would this be?
> It has also been the experience of my LUG, students and professors that I
> am friends with as well.
Ahh, professors - flatty! gotcha!
<snip rest>
--
end
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
travel, n.:
Something that makes you feel like you're getting somewhere.
Daeron
Message-ID: <dj60i2$fod$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gFhTYZqaA8QpW1ggm0Ka3g.901.domitilla.aioe.org
on Oct 19, 6:42 pm phoung wrote:
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees
> including myself) in a large metropolitan city.
Do you mind telling us the name of this large metropolitan city and the
name of your 'computer shop`?
If not, do you mind providing some reason for not doing so.
> We cater mostly to small businesses and have hardware,
> software and complete turnkey systems for sale.
Do you mind providing some details as to these 'complete turnkey
systems'.
If not, do you mind providing some reason for not doing so.
> In addition we offer consulting services for data systems including software.
Do you mind providing some details as to the companies you have offered
`consulting services' to?
If not, do you mind providing some reason for not doing so.
> We started the business 9 years ago and have managed
> to earn a decent living despite the trend for shoppers
> to do business at big box stores like Compusa.
> All of my full time employees are MSCE, CCNA and A+ certified ..
Is that ALL three of them and does the count include your 'sister` as
well.
The A++ must be different in your part of the world as I don't know of
one who can provide complete turnkey systems and consulting services
for data systems. Speaking personally as an A+ certified technician I
can barely pull a board :)
> In addition I have one employee who is RHCE because we have
> anticipated a growth in that specialization although currently we
> are not seeing it grow too quickly.
So thats one RHCE, one A+ and one CCNA certified staff and yourself and
your sister :)
> About a two years ago we decided to offer Linux as an alternative
> to Windows mostly because we feel there is a future for Linux and
> that Linux is a viable alternative to Windows.
Do you mind providing some details as to who you bought your boxes
from and how did you manage to get a licence for non-Windows PCs?
If not, do you mind providing some reason for not doing so.
> We did a little advertising, but the response was kind
> of low because Linux is not exactly something people know
> enough about to shell out $700 on a system.
Do you mind providing some details as to this advertising campaign?
If not, do you mind providing some reason for not doing so.
> Our big break came when we attended a Linux install-fest,
> in fact we helped sponsor it but were not part of the original
> group putting on the event.
Name and date of Linux install-fest please?
Name of organizors of Linux install-fest please?
-rwxrw-r--
I found your original post quite interesting and informative. I'm surprised
that the group decided to attack you as they have.
--
Windows is to GNU/Linux like Etch-a-Sketch is to Photoshop.
Feel the Windoze eXPerience: http://www.etch-a-sketch.com/
Linønut
> phoung wrote:
>
>> Kind Regards.
>> Phoung
>
> I found your original post quite interesting and informative. I'm surprised
> that the group decided to attack you as they have.
Because it is a fabrication by a known troll.
--
Treat yourself to the devices, applications, and services running on the
GNU/Linux® operating system!
Ray Ingles
>
> I found your original post quite interesting and informative. I'm
> surprised that the group decided to attack you as they have.
Please describe how I've 'attacked' the original poster.
--
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Madnick said the diagram showed how Windows was like a 'house of
cards' that could collapse if any of the pieces were removed...
this was a witness *for* Microsoft... Microsoft is so arrogant, it
can claim gross incompetence to avoid incrimination, and still
look forward to getting away with it." - Keith Russell
Frithiof Andreas Jensen
"phoung" <pho...@consultant.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:dj60i2$fod$1...@domitilla.aioe.org...
> My sister and I run a small computer shop (4 employees including myself)
> in a large metropolitan city.
Will you sell your sister then?