Almost Impossible To Sell A Pre_loaded Linux Desktop Computer
Josh
built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
install our own.
We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
not servers.
Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based
systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
refurb. units.
The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not
having to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems
come with a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement.
We found out rather quickly that people are just not interested in
Linux.
It's that simple.
Talk to them, explain to them the advantages of Linux, the security,
the cost savings the immunity to virus and the stability and you will
be met with a blank stare and a question like:
Can I use iTunes /Quicken / Microsoft Office ---add application here-
The other problem is the person upgrading from an older machine that
has a lot of software as well as a printer scanner or other hardware.
When we inform them that most if not all of their software will not
work with Linux, but Linux does have replacements, they are just not
interested because they have an investment already and don't wish to
switch.
It's even worse for hardware, especially printers, many of which are
windows only.
While we have sold a few Linux systems, almost every single one of them
has been returned to the shop and usually by very angry customers who
for some reason think we clipped them.
We regularly entertain representitives from hardware software companies
that also sell to our competition and they forewarnwed us about Linux
being the kiss of death as far as trying to sell a preloaded boxen with
Linux.
We sure found that out the hard way and the shop no longer offers
Linux.
I am back at university but I plan on keeping in touch with the shop to
see if anything in the market changes.
I really doubt it though because Linux is just not wanted by users.
Please excuse my English
Josh Andersen
billwg
"Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
No need to apologize for your English, Josh. The group needs to hear more
heartfelt tales like these so that they can be inspired to try harder!
Beowulf TrollsHammer
> "Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> <a bunch of crap>
>
> No need to apologize for your English, Josh. The group needs to hear more
> heartfelt tales like these so that they can be inspired to try harder!
Cute. Two wintards cuddling together. Are you really that stupid? The
OP is nothing but a proxy-abusing Google/Yahoo troll with no posting
history. He has zero credibility, just like you.
Patrick Grimbergen
Because of your tone I think your story is serious. Most of these problems
the shop had could however be prevented by tweeking KDE to look like
windows or MacOS. Most people don't notice the difference on my PC until
they try and install some .exe file.
Also you have to explain them that the new version of norton requires all
installs to be official and installed via this program called YaST and that
all programs have the extention .rpm, not .zip or .exe because of security
reasons.
If you tell them it is because of linux, they will not except, if you tell
them it is norton, they will... And tell them they don't have to download
the programs, because they are already on the YaST "Safe List"... it is a
matter of presentation.
All three above mentioned programs iTunes/Quicken/MS Office work under linux
or have very good alternatives that can be easily mistaken by the original.
These programs either run via Wine or under an emulator. I remember playing
GameBoy games on my linuxBox in the old days, so those should definitely
work now that Linux is more evolved.
Maybe the Store should have invested in Linux Knowledge before selling it to
unknowing customers... I would be mad as well, if the salesperson does not
know what he is talking about...
mec...@yahoo.com
Patrick Grimbergen wrote:
>"Josh" wrote:
>>[a bunch of lies, yet again]
"Josh", I thought I told you to stop crossposting to
comp.os.linux.misc. Please. Stop it.
>Because of your tone I think your story is serious.
Because of his crossposting to particular newsgroups, I
know the story is not serious.
Isaac Kuo
John Bailo
> I really doubt it though because Linux is just not wanted by users.
>
> Please excuse my English
> Josh Andersen
Home desktop Linux will succeed once Novell conquers the server, then the
call center, then the business desktop.
At that point, the incentive will be to "develop for Linux" and the home
user will follow suit by buying said.
Front loading doesn't work with the Linux channel, Josh (or should I
say, /flatfish/ ).
--
Texeme
http://texeme.com
Tim Smith
[probably lies deleted]
Hmmmm....yahoo email address, posting through Google, relayed through a machine in Africa.
Hello, Flatfish.
--
--Tim Smith
P.
> If you tell them it is because of linux, they will not except, if you tell
> them it is norton, they will... And tell them they don't have to download
> the programs, because they are already on the YaST "Safe List"... it is a
> matter of presentation.
That is MIS-REpresentation, which might lead to litigation, which might lead to
financial consternation or incarceration.
P.
--
"This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God
who kills the children. Not Fate that butchers them or Destiny that feeds them
to dogs. It's us. Only us." - Rorschach, Watchmen
ac
> This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
> built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that
wow you *really* like cross-posting don't you?
Peter Jensen
Hash: SHA1
Josh wrote:
> From: "Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com>
Strike one: Yahoo throw-away address.
Strike two: No prior posting history.
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux.suse,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Strike three: Excessive cross-posts.
> Subject: Almost Impossible To Sell A Pre_loaded Linux Desktop Computer
Strike four: Trollish subject.
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
Strike five: Posting through Google.
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.0.138.90
And finally strike six: Posting through a port 8888 open proxy in Sudan.
Yeah, I'm sure people called Josh M. Andersen try to start Linux related
businesses in Sudan all the time. If you were serious, you would have
posted through your own computer.
[Snip - tall tale]
Why would anyone fall for this? It has Flatfish written all over it.
Treating the contents of the troll seriously serves no purpose, as it's
entirely fictional, just like the identity used to send it.
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--
PeKaJe
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
-- William Allen White
Josh
Patrick Grimbergen wrote:
> Because of your tone I think your story is serious. Most of these problems
> the shop had could however be prevented by tweeking KDE to look like
> windows or MacOS. Most people don't notice the difference on my PC until
> they try and install some .exe file.
with customers who want to use software and hardware they already own
and are comfortable with using.
> Also you have to explain them that the new version of norton requires all
> installs to be official and installed via this program called YaST and that
> all programs have the extention .rpm, not .zip or .exe because of security
> reasons.
> If you tell them it is because of linux, they will not except, if you tell
> them it is norton, they will... And tell them they don't have to download
> the programs, because they are already on the YaST "Safe List"... it is a
> matter of presentation.
So they have this version of Norton they paid money for and I tell them
it won't run with Linux because it is Norton's fault not Linux's?
And then I tell them that every program they will ever need is on yast
safe list including newer versions?
I don't think that is a good idea.
> All three above mentioned programs iTunes/Quicken/MS Office work under linux
> or have very good alternatives that can be easily mistaken by the original.
> These programs either run via Wine or under an emulator. I remember playing
> GameBoy games on my linuxBox in the old days, so those should definitely
> work now that Linux is more evolved.
They don't work under Linux very well and the user would never be able
to configure wine to make them work to what they can do now.
iTunes runs horridly slow under Linux and codeweavers, won't run right
with wine.
Quicken is not fully functional either when it exports or maybe I
believe
Why use wine to run Office/Quicken when they already own the programs
and can use them with Windows and they tend to work fully with features
all?
> Maybe the Store should have invested in Linux Knowledge before selling it to
> unknowing customers... I would be mad as well, if the salesperson does not
> know what he is talking about...
The owners are both RH Certified and one teaches Linux System
Administration curricula at university where study. That is how I
obtained position for summer holiday.
They both know Linux very well are Linux users themselves and have
tried
to educate the public about Linux while offering a good system at a
great price.
It failed because people did not want to purchase it after they found
out how incompatible it would be with their already purchased software
and hardware.
The user buys iTunes software and subscribes to service. They don't
want to muck with Linux they want to downlaod songs and easily install
software to do so.
I find it puzzling how some Linux users take offense when they are
confronted with a situation where Linux was not a best choice.
lqu...@uku.co.uk
Most likely because whenever something like this (or "NYU law school
won't accept Linux" post, etc, etc) gets posted the over-under for the
number of replies tends to be around 200.
Linønut
> The other problem is the person upgrading from an older machine that
> has a lot of software as well as a printer scanner or other hardware.
> When we inform them that most if not all of their software will not
> work with Linux, but Linux does have replacements, they are just not
> interested because they have an investment already and don't wish to
> switch.
You're lying to your customers.
> Please excuse my English
No excuse for trolling.
--
Linux - A most satisfying eXPerience
Linønut
> Because of your tone I think your story is serious.
"And I'm a socket puppet!"
Linønut
> In article <1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Josh wrote:
> [probably lies deleted]
>
> Hmmmm....yahoo email address, posting through Google, relayed through
> a machine in Africa.
With a sock puppet following close behind to nod in agreement and shout
"Amen, bruddah!"
> Hello, Flatfish.
Or someone like him.
Highland Ham
> to
> unknowing customers... I would be mad as well, if the salesperson does not
> know what he is talking about...
Very right you are . Here in northern Scotland and probably in most parts of
the UK ,computer shop staff have not been trained (if at all) in using
anything else than Windows and (sometimes) Apple Mac OS.
New PC and Macs only retain their warranty when used with their native OS.
Some e-sellers now offer older model PCs with yet an older version of Linux
(for example Mandrake 9.2)
Existing Linux users can promote their favourite OS within their own social
/job circle ,but a real breakthrough is only possible when Linux is being
used at Primary and Secondary school level.
However education authorities have their hands tied through long term
contracts with Micro$oft.
The situation seems somewhat different on the European Continent where Linux
is being adopted by an increasing number of local councils, although
migration to Linux is not always smooth . Somewhere in Germany a local
government organisation is even moving back to Windoze after having
attempted to migrate to Linux.
But no doubt Linux will eventually break through .............but only with
an even better desktop.
I don't believe the general public will ever accept any necessity for use of
the CLI.
Frank
Baier <jonbaier{nospam]@siouxvalley.net >
Pardon my ignorance guys, what's a Flatfish?
7
> This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
All lies of course re-printed by paid windope astroturfers.
Sell a computer with dual boot windopes and a couple of GNU/Linux
distros pre-installed (Say Mepis, Knoppix, and Quantian) and they
sell like hotcakes!!!!
No mummy or daddy will turn down a PC with all those Linux freebies
(http://www.livecdlist.com) pre-installed and booting beside their
legacy windope stuff.
And of course, the windopes stuff is destroyed in minutes and kids
being what they are, have tweeked and got the GNU/Linux working
and doing all the things they are supposed to be doing
with a PC and internet in minutes. Its just amazing the burst of
creativity you can see in kids when necessity meets unmolded minds.
Peter Jensen
Hash: SHA1
Jon Baier wrote:
> Pardon my ignorance guys, what's a Flatfish?
Flatfish is one particular (and recurring) identity of a common
comp.os.linux.advocacy troll. He, she, or it (usually abbreviated as
s/h/it) uses a particular posting style that is almost immediately
recognizable to anyone who has regularly been exposed to s/h/it. It
would be long and OT to explain in detail what the flat one is all
about, but suffice to say that s/h/it is usually spotted right away,
after which the more experienced Usenet participants just ignore it, or
leave little "hi flatty" notes to let it know that s/h/it was spotted
once again.
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--
PeKaJe
Linux has a history of standing on the shoulders of giants, while Microsoft has
a history of trying to break giants' legs. The latter is quite less efficient.
Nikos Chantziaras
> In article <1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Josh wrote:
> [probably lies deleted]
>
> Hmmmm....yahoo email address, posting through Google, relayed through a machine in Africa.
It's difficult to sell Linux workstations in Uganda...
Nikos Chantziaras
>> Organization: http://groups.google.com
>
> Strike five: Posting through Google.
Funny, isn't it? Google is both the ultimate proof of one's identity
(it's impossible to impersonate a Google poster) as well as the ultimate
haven for trolls...
Toosmoky
> So they have this version of Norton they paid money for and I tell them
> it won't run with Linux because it is Norton's fault not Linux's?
Or you could tell them they don't need Norton at all anymore...
> They both know Linux very well are Linux users themselves and have
> tried
> to educate the public about Linux while offering a good system at a
> great price.
The "public" aren't ready for linux. Linux is ready for anyone who wants
to put in the time and effort to learn.
> It failed because people did not want to purchase it after they found
> out how incompatible it would be with their already purchased software
> and hardware.
Even though all the software is free, installed along with the OS and
updates are free too.
It takes me about four days to reinstall everything on my winbox, OS,
apps, games, serials, activations, updates, reboots etc.
A day less to fully sort a new SuSE install, including googling for
answers to problems encountered.
> I find it puzzling how some Linux users take offense when they are
> confronted with a situation where Linux was not a best choice.
As much as I like linux, It's not an operating system for the masses.
It's more for the advanced PC user who is looking for something more
than Windows can provide.
--
Toosmoky
Ride the Penguin...
http://toosmoky.d2.net.au
TheLetterK
> This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
> built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
> at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
> we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
> must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
> install our own.
> We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
> section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
> could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
> Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
> not servers.
>
> Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based
> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> refurb. units.
>
> The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
> Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not
> having to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems
> come with a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
>
> To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement.
> We found out rather quickly that people are just not interested in
> Linux.
'demonstration'? Put up three boxes in the shop. One running Windows,
one running SuSE, and one running Mandriva. Let the people ask questions
about them on their own.
> It's that simple.
> Talk to them, explain to them the advantages of Linux, the security,
> the cost savings the immunity to virus and the stability and you will
> be met with a blank stare and a question like:
> Can I use iTunes /Quicken / Microsoft Office ---add application here-
>
> The other problem is the person upgrading from an older machine that
> has a lot of software as well as a printer scanner or other hardware.
> When we inform them that most if not all of their software will not
> work with Linux, but Linux does have replacements, they are just not
> interested because they have an investment already and don't wish to
> switch.
Again, this is entirely due to your apparent lack of skill in marketing
a product.
>
> It's even worse for hardware, especially printers, many of which are
> windows only.
This is complete BS. No wonder you scared them off--you know jack shit
about GNU/Linux.
>
>
> While we have sold a few Linux systems, almost every single one of them
> has been returned to the shop and usually by very angry customers who
> for some reason think we clipped them.
>
> We regularly entertain representitives from hardware software companies
> that also sell to our competition and they forewarnwed us about Linux
> being the kiss of death as far as trying to sell a preloaded boxen with
> Linux.
>
> We sure found that out the hard way and the shop no longer offers
> Linux.
> I am back at university but I plan on keeping in touch with the shop to
> see if anything in the market changes.
>
> I really doubt it though because Linux is just not wanted by users.
>
> Please excuse my English
> Josh Andersen
>
Pff, More like your not wanted in the industry.
The Ghost In The Machine
<linøn...@bone.com>
wrote
on Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:14:44 -0500
<1vudnca3cur...@comcast.com>:
*Does* someone like him? :-)
Followups reset.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Lionel
[probably troll stuff but who cares]
I think that one of the major issues is that the "masses" can't handle
choice, and the choice given in linux can also make things more
complicated. E.g. you may have to actually get your mail reader and
browser working together, Windows provides no choice unless you actively
got out to find it and so this never occurs. Package linux up with a
exactly all the components a user needs, force them to use say firefox
and thunderbird, open office etc., one and the best of each and they
will have no problems. However, people are still resistant to change, if
they have to learn they will automatically blame it on the computer/OS,
it's just a fact of HCI.
Perhaps targetting linux at the people who are new to computers
altogether would be a better option.
Lionel.
Snit
430a38ee$0$38951$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl on 8/22/05 1:39 PM:
For Linux to be usable for the average user does it have to be "tweeked"?
Even the, when they ask about specific hardware or software the answer will
not change...
>
> Also you have to explain them that the new version of norton requires all
> installs to be official and installed via this program called YaST and that
> all programs have the extention .rpm, not .zip or .exe because of security
> reasons.
>
> If you tell them it is because of linux, they will not except, if you tell
> them it is norton, they will... And tell them they don't have to download
> the programs, because they are already on the YaST "Safe List"... it is a
> matter of presentation.
You have to lie to people to get them to use Linux?
>
> All three above mentioned programs iTunes/Quicken/MS Office work under linux
> or have very good alternatives that can be easily mistaken by the original.
I would like to see what those are... from what I have seen of the MS Office
ones they still have a ways to go. I have not played with the iTunes /
Quicken type programs.
> These programs either run via Wine or under an emulator. I remember playing
> GameBoy games on my linuxBox in the old days, so those should definitely
> work now that Linux is more evolved.
GameBoy emulators are much more successful than wine. Wine is still...um...
not quite "there" yet.
>
> Maybe the Store should have invested in Linux Knowledge before selling it to
> unknowing customers... I would be mad as well, if the salesperson does not
> know what he is talking about...
Maybe they do...
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
_________________________________________
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Linønut
> But no doubt Linux will eventually break through .............but only with
> an even better desktop.
It's already better than Windoze in some ways. Not as "good" in others.
> I don't believe the general public will ever accept any necessity for use of
> the CLI.
Why not, they did it for DOS.
When a typical user finds out they can do something more easily in a
CLI, they will use it. And there are a few things that are actually
simpler in a CLI.
"CLI" is just a bogeyman put forth by FUD'ers (not that you're one) to
scare people.
ray
computers at the local library. To date there have been ZERO complaints,
and a customer satisfaction survey we did a month ago indicates that the
patrons are quite satisfied. It seemed from the responses that a large
number of them were not aware that they were not using MS. Before I did
the install, I did my homework and spent some time making sure the install
and configuration was done properly, with AbiWord and Gnumeric in addition
to OpenOffice, and all of the available browser plugins for Mozilla. I
would suggest that it is very possible that you did not do a very good job
of installing and configuring the Linux installations. I would wager that
much less time was spent in planning and implementing Linux than what you
spent on MS. Given the same detailed planning it should succeed just as
well.
Patrick Grimbergen
<snip>
At least have the courage to read my awnser and respond to what I say... now
it's official... troll
*ploink*
Peter
> Sell a computer with dual boot windopes and a couple of GNU/Linux
> distros pre-installed (Say Mepis, Knoppix, and Quantian) and they
> sell like hotcakes!!!!
>
Who sells such computers? Surely they would get their asses dragged through
the courts by Bill and Steve.
philo
"Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
> built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
> at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
> we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
> must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
> install our own.
> We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
> section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
> could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
> Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
> not servers.
>
> Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based
> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> refurb. units.
<snip>
I dual boot Linux and Windows...
and use Linux about 90% of the time for the internet...
and use Windows mainly for the Windows-only harware I still have.
That said...I too have also suggested to most of my friends that they give
Linux a try...
but have found that about 98% still use windows.
Here is an example of the average person's mentality (at least as I've
observed):
I am a member of a local photography group..and most of the folks doing
digital
photography use Photoshop. It's a great application of course...and I use it
myself.
I decided that it was worth spending the money to purchase it legally...
and my girl friend uses it on a daily basis...
However recently I've been using the GIMP on my Linux installtion...
and found that for what I''m doing...I actually prefer it to Photoshop.
So quite excitedly I brought this up at one of our meetings in the
Photography group...
and even mentioned that the GIMP has versions for MAC and PC's!
No one seemed too interested...and the general concensus for those without
the money to spend
on Photoshop was simply to use a "bootleg" copy !
Of course...I don't really care if people use Linux or not and it's many
free apps.
That's their problem not mine !
Nikos Chantziaras
I've seen many stores selling such PCs. I guess they just install a
retail version of Windows, not the OEM one. Some of them even install a
pirated copy of Windows (very common in Greece).
Nikos Chantziaras
> "Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
>> refurb. units.
>
> <snip>
>
> I dual boot Linux and Windows...
> and use Linux about 90% of the time for the internet...
> and use Windows mainly for the Windows-only harware I still have.
>
> That said...I too have also suggested to most of my friends that they give
> Linux a try...
> but have found that about 98% still use windows.
(First of all, the OP was obviously a troll (Google, African proxy,
etc.) But your response is interesting.)
If something works, people stick to it. And Windows *does* work. You
can browse the web, send emails, listen to music, watch DVDs, edit
photos and documents, play video games, etc. (That you can do these
things in Linux too is not the point here, mind you.) Its hardware
support is the best out there. Why should people start using Linux if
they see no problem with Windows? Because of computer viruses? They
are called *computer* viruses, not *Windows* viruses (which would be
correct term, and I suggest you use that term whenever possible), so
most people think they attack the computer, not the operating system.
They have no idea what an OS is anyway, and what the relationship
between hardware and OS is. This is one of Microsoft's biggest weapons:
do not, under any circumstances, explain to customers that a "Microsoft
operating system" is just a piece of software that runs on top of their
hardware. Let them believe that MS OSes are *tied* to PCs, that they
can't do anything without them, like you can't live without water, food
and air.
It's a mistake to use phrases like "works better than Windows" when
trying to sell Linux boxes, because people might get disappointed when
they first try it out ("it's different than Windows, therefore it
sucks.") Linux advocates should try to explain to potential customers
the benefits of Free software. Also, they should try to explain to
them, that what they (the customers) believe to be "common sense",
actually isn't. "Common sense" tells them that you have to pay for your
software (which is not a bad thing), *but* you are not allowed to copy
it or download it for free. Someone has to make it clear to them, that
this kind of "common sense" is nothing more than the result of using
restrictive commercial software for years and years and years. A EULA
seems so natural to them, that they click on the "I Accept" button
without even thinking about the moral implications.
Linux is *not* better as a product to the average user. It is just
different. It *is* better from a moral point of view. EULAs, patents
and copyrights have been hardcoded into people's minds, so they tend to
believe that there is no alternative.
Well, we have news for them: Linux.
Jim
when my son starts Secondary school in September, he will have with him
a laptop loaded with Linux. Along with a letter stating that if it
doesn't work on his laptop, he won't be learning it.
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk
Maybe the Internet has the answers I need. It certainly answered my
questions about wang enhancement.
Linønut
> In January I installed Mandrake Linux on the public access internet
> computers at the local library. To date there have been ZERO complaints,
> and a customer satisfaction survey we did a month ago indicates that the
> patrons are quite satisfied. It seemed from the responses that a large
> number of them were not aware that they were not using MS.
Did some of them then say, "Agggh, this is shit!" when told?
> Before I did
> the install, I did my homework and spent some time making sure the install
> and configuration was done properly, with AbiWord and Gnumeric in addition
> to OpenOffice, and all of the available browser plugins for Mozilla. I
> would suggest that it is very possible that you did not do a very good job
> of installing and configuring the Linux installations. I would wager that
> much less time was spent in planning and implementing Linux than what you
> spent on MS. Given the same detailed planning it should succeed just as
> well.
>
http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2005081901226OPMR
Editor's Note: How Not to Define Linux
Aug 19, 2005, 23 :30 UTC
By Brian Proffitt
Managing Editor
A friend of mine asked me if Linux was getting too commoditized and
too ordinary. A fellow Linux user, he seemed worried about the "wow"
factor of Linux dropping below the point where it would capture any
interest. ...
Geoffrey F.
> when my son starts Secondary school in September, he will have with him
> a laptop loaded with Linux. Along with a letter stating that if it
> doesn't work on his laptop, he won't be learning it.
You really mean to say "the postman's son". You can be honest with us.
That's just begging for another dumbfuck pillock in the Moore family tree.
You could always load a nice fresh copy of Windows XP Professional, the
"Corporate" version, as you called it, which really means pirated.
Be sure to delete your bookmarks. No sense subjecting the kid to your gay
porn.
Peter Köhlmann
Idiot
--
Any idiot can run XP. And usually does.
Larry Qualig
"Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:430afc47$0$50117$892e...@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
Excellent post Nikos.
Larry Qualig
"Linųnut" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?lin=F8nut?="@bone.com> wrote in message
news:x5mdnVjCBPK...@comcast.com...
> Highland Ham poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> I don't believe the general public will ever accept any necessity for use
>> of
>> the CLI.
>
> Why not, they did it for DOS.
>
While you and I may appreciate the CLI, the casual home user will not.
Telling them that it's the same 15 year old "feature" that DOS had isn't
going to change that.
Ray Ingles
> For Linux to be usable for the average user does it have to be "tweeked"?
Not really. The only tweak I did for my parents when I put them on Ubuntu
was to make the fonts bigger, and I'd have done that no matter what platform
they were on. They were already using Thunderbird and Firefox, so they didn't
even notice a change there.
Now, *all* computers need maintenance, just like cars. There's no point in
pretending otherwise. (If nothing else, installing security updates.) Either
the user does it themselves, or they have someone else (a family member,
friend, or paid tech) do it. I was doing it for my parents before when they
were on Windows, and I'm still doing it on Linux.
The difference is I can do maintenance both *securely* and *remotely* now.
--
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"We've got no place in this outfit for good losers.
We want tough hombres who will go in there and win!"
- Admiral Jonas Ingram, 1926
chrisv
>From: "Josh" <josh_m_...@yahoo.com>
>Organization: http://groups.google.com
Yahoo/google troll.
*plonk*
Postmaster
> built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
> at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
> we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
> must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
> install our own.
> We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
> section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
> could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
> Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
> not servers.
>
> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> refurb. units.
>
I find that these sort of posts raise important questions.
1. How much does Microsoft pay trolls to trash talk their competition ?
2. How much would an ISP pay to rid themselves of trolls that
start pointless, bandwidth burning flame wars ?
3. Is there a potential revenue stream here ? Would the readers
of any particular news group contribute financially to payoff
or rid them selves of such trash and lower the noise floor
of their respective news groups ? ( There must be value in the
time saved by not having to wade through this muck. )
4. Is there a missing component in Linux distros ? Simply
have the operating system trap the attempt to load anything
.exe, then pattern match to application, then cross reference
to available open source implementation, then auto download
install, and execute ....
5. If every Linux system sold were to automatically post
trash to Microsoft news groups, would Microsoft be willing
to send cash to the Linux end user to have their systems
stop doing this ?
My analysis of these flame wars is that they spew hate,
waste time, raise blood pressure, go on forever, and
prove nothing. Thus they are similar to an disease or an
infection. People are willing to go to a doctor to obtain a cure
for what ails them, and they are willing to pay for such a cure.
People dislike sitting in traffic jams and are willing to pay
more taxes to get relief for the problem.
Clearly there must be some motivation for these flame wars
and I going to guess that its basis is somehow similar to one
of the above and is either financially motivated, or can be cured
through fiscal pressures.
Enjoy,
Postmaster.
ray
> ray poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> In January I installed Mandrake Linux on the public access internet
>> computers at the local library. To date there have been ZERO complaints,
>> and a customer satisfaction survey we did a month ago indicates that the
>> patrons are quite satisfied. It seemed from the responses that a large
>> number of them were not aware that they were not using MS.
>
> Did some of them then say, "Agggh, this is shit!" when told?
What part of "zero complaints" is it you don't understand?
>
>> Before I did
>> the install, I did my homework and spent some time making sure the install
>> and configuration was done properly, with AbiWord and Gnumeric in addition
>> to OpenOffice, and all of the available browser plugins for Mozilla. I
>> would suggest that it is very possible that you did not do a very good job
>> of installing and configuring the Linux installations. I would wager that
>> much less time was spent in planning and implementing Linux than what you
>> spent on MS. Given the same detailed planning it should succeed just as
>> well.
>>
>
> http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2005081901226OPMR
>
> Editor's Note: How Not to Define Linux
> Aug 19, 2005, 23 :30 UTC
> By Brian Proffitt
> Managing Editor
>
> A friend of mine asked me if Linux was getting too commoditized and
> too ordinary. A fellow Linux user, he seemed worried about the "wow"
> factor of Linux dropping below the point where it would capture any
> interest. ...
For me, the "wow factor" is the fact that it WORKS. It's not a constant
battle to keep it running.
Snit
slrndgm700....@dmc22317.local on 8/23/05 5:48 AM:
> In article <BF2FBFB8.2AB12%SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID>, Snit wrote:
>
>> For Linux to be usable for the average user does it have to be "tweeked"?
>
> Not really. The only tweak I did for my parents when I put them on Ubuntu
> was to make the fonts bigger, and I'd have done that no matter what platform
> they were on. They were already using Thunderbird and Firefox, so they didn't
> even notice a change there.
I think for people who do little other than e-mail and web surfing - which
is a *lot* of people - there is no modern OS that will not serve them
well... accept perhaps Windows because of the huge risk of malware.
>
> Now, *all* computers need maintenance, just like cars. There's no point in
> pretending otherwise. (If nothing else, installing security updates.) Either
> the user does it themselves, or they have someone else (a family member,
> friend, or paid tech) do it. I was doing it for my parents before when they
> were on Windows, and I'm still doing it on Linux.
>
> The difference is I can do maintenance both *securely* and *remotely* now.
And there is less risk of malware on Linux (or OS X) even if you are late or
neglect to install a security update...
No argument here...
--
Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/f351
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
Aragorn
following words to the masses...:
> Dear Sirs,
>
> I find that these sort of posts raise important questions.
>
> 1. How much does Microsoft pay trolls to trash talk their
> competition ?
From what I've heard - and what has already been proven - a number of
them are actually on the Microsoft payroll.
I am however unaware as to whether they receive an extra bonus for the
amusing prose they keep sending our way... ;-)
> 2. How much would an ISP pay to rid themselves of trolls that
> start pointless, bandwidth burning flame wars ?
This one is tricky... To my experience, ISP's don't really care that
much, provided that one doesn't exceed one's quota.
> 3. Is there a potential revenue stream here ? Would the readers
> of any particular news group contribute financially to payoff
> or rid them selves of such trash and lower the noise floor
> of their respective news groups ? ( There must be value in the
> time saved by not having to wade through this muck. )
I don't know whether people would be willing to pay to get rid of
trolls. After all, /kill-files/ come free of charge. ;-)
> 4. Is there a missing component in Linux distros ? Simply
> have the operating system trap the attempt to load anything
> .exe, then pattern match to application, then cross reference
> to available open source implementation, then auto download
> install, and execute ....
No, but there is one to actually allow Gnu/Linux users to _run_ an
/.exe/ file in Gnu/Linux. It's called /wine,/ and those using it
should start drinking more of it in order to rid themselves of the
desire to run anything that considers itself an executable because of a
three-character extension to its filename. :-)
> 5. If every Linux system sold were to automatically post
> trash to Microsoft news groups, would Microsoft be willing
> to send cash to the Linux end user to have their systems
> stop doing this ?
Microsoft heavily relies on the fact that most of the Gnu/Linux users
have better manners and more dignity than to resort to the same vile
behavior as it instructs its drones to execute. ;-)
In addition, they claim the use of bandwidth by their troopers as a
tax-deductable corporate expense. :-þ
> My analysis of these flame wars is that they spew hate,
> waste time, raise blood pressure, go on forever, and
> prove nothing. Thus they are similar to an disease or an
> infection. People are willing to go to a doctor to obtain a cure
> for what ails them, and they are willing to pay for such a cure.
> People dislike sitting in traffic jams and are willing to pay
> more taxes to get relief for the problem.
>
> Clearly there must be some motivation for these flame wars
> and I going to guess that its basis is somehow similar to one
> of the above and is either financially motivated, or can be cured
> through fiscal pressures.
Well, some people really do get off on making others feel miserable,
aggravated, frustrated or similarly unenjoyable emotional states.
I don't know if any taxes would cure the problem, since Microsoft seems
to be able to buy its way out of just about anything. It even buys
governments.
I do however believe that directing a single small tactical missile - it
really needn't be more powerful than 1 MegaTonne - to a certain office
building in Redmond would yield a fair change to resolving the issue.
;-))
> Enjoy,
I did. :-)
> Postmaster.
Nice post, master... ;-)
--
With kind regards,
*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Jeremy Fisher
> can browse the web, send emails, listen to music, watch DVDs, edit
> photos and documents, play video games, etc. (That you can do these
> things in Linux too is not the point here, mind you.) Its hardware
> support is the best out there. Why should people start using Linux if
> they see no problem with Windows? Because of computer viruses? They
> are called *computer* viruses, not *Windows* viruses (which would be
> correct term, and I suggest you use that term whenever possible),
This a very good point, correcting the term to "Windows Viruses" is spot
on, "Windows Spyware" and "Windows Malware" should also be used amongst
others.
> so most people think they attack the computer, not the operating system.
> They have no idea what an OS is anyway, and what the relationship
> between hardware and OS is. This is one of Microsoft's biggest weapons:
> do not, under any circumstances, explain to customers that a "Microsoft
> operating system" is just a piece of software that runs on top of their
> hardware. Let them believe that MS OSes are *tied* to PCs, that they
> can't do anything without them, like you can't live without water, food
> and air.
I am supprised that MS havn't produced a MS PC, I guess if you have a MS
Keyboard and Mouse you assume you have a MS PC
>
> It's a mistake to use phrases like "works better than Windows" when
> trying to sell Linux boxes, because people might get disappointed when
> they first try it out ("it's different than Windows, therefore it
> sucks.") Linux advocates should try to explain to potential customers
> the benefits of Free software. Also, they should try to explain to
> them, that what they (the customers) believe to be "common sense",
> actually isn't. "Common sense" tells them that you have to pay for your
> software (which is not a bad thing), *but* you are not allowed to copy
> it or download it for free.
The word free is one I try to avoid, at work we run a ERM system that is
cross platform, I set it up a desktop on a Linux box, but to get it
configured I needed to talk to the vendor, who had no problem in helping,
but the perseption they had of people who use linux was of users that
don't want to pay for software, the word "free" is not understood by most
people.
> Someone has to make it clear to them, that
> this kind of "common sense" is nothing more than the result of using
> restrictive commercial software for years and years and years. A EULA
> seems so natural to them, that they click on the "I Accept" button
> without even thinking about the moral implications.
Its not easy to get people to understand, I like to explain that I have
a computer, that is 100% legall, that I have no restrictions on how or
what I use it for, that I don't use virus checkers (Windows virus
checkers) or every get spyware or malware, and that yes I have a permanent
connection to the internet.
>
> Linux is *not* better as a product to the average user. It is just
> different. It *is* better from a moral point of view. EULAs, patents
> and copyrights have been hardcoded into people's minds, so they tend to
> believe that there is no alternative.
>
> Well, we have news for them: Linux.
Very good post,
Jem..
Linønut
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:29:32 -0500, Linųnutlinųnut wrote:
>
>> ray poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>
>>> In January I installed Mandrake Linux on the public access internet
>>> computers at the local library. To date there have been ZERO complaints,
>>> and a customer satisfaction survey we did a month ago indicates that the
>>> patrons are quite satisfied. It seemed from the responses that a large
>>> number of them were not aware that they were not using MS.
>>
>> Did some of them then say, "Agggh, this is shit!" when told?
>
> What part of "zero complaints" is it you don't understand?
The part that intersects with "that was just a joke".
> For me, the "wow factor" is the fact that it WORKS. It's not a constant
> battle to keep it running.
Me too. But the biggest wow is how accessible everything is.
Proteus
...
> Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based systems
> (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our refurb.
> units.
>
> The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
> Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not having
> to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems come with
> a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
>
> To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement. We found
Best Buy is going to be selling Linux PCs, I guess if you are correct
their decision will be a disaster; however if Best Buy is successful, then
we will all know that is works. Marketing, marketing, marketing. Guess
your company did it wrong. My suspicion is Linux PCs *will* sell through
the Best Buy chain successfully.
lqu...@uku.co.uk
Out of curiousity, where did you hear this? I searched Google for '
"Best Buy" Linux PC ' and came up with exactly 3 news stories. None of
which mentions this.
Proteus
I was in Yahoo News Tech Linux news about (give or take) 4 months back,
honest. That select (I forget how many, but it was significant) Best Buy
retail stores would be selling Linux PCs. I even printed the news article
and showed it to the Best Buy computer sales people at my local BB, as
they know I am a linux user and a regular buyer there (I teach college all
online, so buy lots of computer stuff). I will search for the news
article, but if anybody else can find it please post the link if it
exists, etc.
Proteus
Well I just googled and it took all of 10 seconds to find the article, I
just did a google search for
"best buy to sell linux pcs"
search results:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=best+buy+to+sell+linux+pcs&btnG=Google+Search
B Gruff
I object to your classification.
Tab was an idiot.
Now please re-read that post and re-consider?
Is this one REALLY as bright as tab?
Bill
Proteus
,,
> Well I just googled and it took all of 10 seconds to find the article, I
> just did a google search for
> "best buy to sell linux pcs"
oops i goofed, posted too quickly, that article was not about linux pcs
through best buy, gotta run but perhaps later i or somebody can find the
news article, or just call BB to confirm, etc.
lqu...@uku.co.uk
Thanks but that's fine... I believe you and there's no need to search
any further. I was just curious if this is something that was announced
this week or a few months ago.
Thanks for the info.
- LQ
lqu...@uku.co.uk
Even better. Interesting that when I searched the "News" section of
Google (where this stuff is supposed to be) it comes back with nothing
on this.
Thanks again.
Peter Köhlmann
You are right. We should not insult the real idiots
This one is obviously several steps below "cretin"
--
Windows isn't unstable. It's spontaneous.
Andrew
> Josh wrote:
> [probably troll stuff but who cares]
>
> I think that one of the major issues is that the "masses" can't handle
> choice, and the choice given in linux can also make things more
> complicated. E.g. you may have to actually get your mail reader and
> browser working together, Windows provides no choice unless you actively
> got out to find it and so this never occurs. Package linux up with a
> exactly all the components a user needs, force them to use say firefox
> and thunderbird, open office etc., one and the best of each and they
> will have no problems. However, people are still resistant to change, if
> they have to learn they will automatically blame it on the computer/OS,
> it's just a fact of HCI.
>
> Perhaps targetting linux at the people who are new to computers
> altogether would be a better option.
>
> Lionel.
Lionel I would agree,(on several items) 1st the op probably was a
troll,and also that the people (the masses) can't handle choice. And
targeting linux based computers at NEW computer users is a great idea.
I work part time at Sears, selling tv sets. (ok so it's the electronics
dept. but who cares *heh*) When you try to explain the differences
between HD, ED, DLP, Plasma, LCD, LCD-Projection, Picture Tube.. you get
some blank stares, and sometimes some ugly ones.
It isn't a good idea to offer that many choices to a public, that really
doesn't want it to begin with. Typically what I hear is .. "will it
work" or "will it work with ... .. ".
It works a lot better to just, as we call it, qualify the customer, ask
questions like, where will you use the tv, how big is the room, is it
only going to be used with dvd movies or only to watch the 6 o'clock new
s.. the answers basically tell me what type of tv to show them.
BTW I'm purely talking about the American public, because I have never
been to another country and can't comment on other countries citizens.
The same logic is easily applied to linux based computers. Qualify the
customer. If the customer is seriously intent on using their current
software, and their current software is Command and Conquer Generals
(video game), the Sims, and Microsnot Office (Newest version), then
probably leave them in windows. So switching current users to linux is
going to be tough. And I won't go into the discussion of is it possible
or how to do it...
But for new uers, who basically haven't touched a computer before, linux
is perfect for them. as they don't have to relearn something. They
don't have to re-buy any software. And when you sell a computer to them
that has linux already in it, just make sure that they understand where
to get their software from. Otherwise you might have a seriously pissed
customer, because they might think they can go to best-buy and purchase
a microsoft office and just pop it in. (Can a linux computer be set-up
to do this? maybe.) but for the typical home user who wants to just
check e-mail, check a few websites and maybe play solitaire. .. Linux is
fine for them. Just explain to them where to get the software from ..
And if that home user wants to do more then just e-mail,web surf, and
solitaire, .. again, just qualify the customer.
Kouros
> Patrick Grimbergen dribbled incoherently:
>
>
>>If you tell them it is because of linux, they will not except, if you tell
>>them it is norton, they will... And tell them they don't have to download
>>the programs, because they are already on the YaST "Safe List"... it is a
>>matter of presentation.
>
>
> That is MIS-REpresentation, which might lead to litigation, which might lead to
> financial consternation or incarceration.
Not necessarily. What I think he is suggesting is demonstrating a
desktop, asking if anything is wrong with it, and then revealing that
it's Linux.
It's kinda like telling a kid something is broccoli before handing it to
them... of course they won't touch it. Just give it to them mixed with
mash, and they'll wolf it down.
philo
"Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:430afc47$0$50117$892e...@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
> philo wrote:
> > news:1124742367....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> >> refurb. units.
> >
> >
> > I dual boot Linux and Windows...
> > and use Linux about 90% of the time for the internet...
> > and use Windows mainly for the Windows-only harware I still have.
> >
> > That said...I too have also suggested to most of my friends that they
give
> > Linux a try...
> > but have found that about 98% still use windows.
>
> (First of all, the OP was obviously a troll (Google, African proxy,
> etc.) But your response is interesting.)
>
> can browse the web, send emails, listen to music, watch DVDs, edit
> photos and documents, play video games, etc. (That you can do these
> things in Linux too is not the point here, mind you.) Its hardware
> support is the best out there. Why should people start using Linux if
> they see no problem with Windows? Because of computer viruses? They
> are called *computer* viruses, not *Windows* viruses (which would be
> most people think they attack the computer, not the operating system.
> They have no idea what an OS is anyway, and what the relationship
> between hardware and OS is. This is one of Microsoft's biggest weapons:
> do not, under any circumstances, explain to customers that a "Microsoft
> operating system" is just a piece of software that runs on top of their
> hardware. Let them believe that MS OSes are *tied* to PCs, that they
> can't do anything without them, like you can't live without water, food
> and air.
<snip>
good points there...
oh one thing i should have mentioned is that if i'm booted over to Linux...
and a friend is over and needs to use my machine...
they have never even noticed...
so i know that Linux is quite viable for the average joe !
philo
> If you want to convert peeps, try to get them to use GimpShop (
> http://plasticbugs.com/index.php?p=241 ) there are Mac/Windows/*Nix
> versions. I installed it for my mom (www.granniepix.com) and she's been
> enjoying it. It has helped tremendously with her upgrade from Windows to
> Linux.
>
> Photoshop was the one application she needs to use on a daily basis, so I
> ensured that she could either (a) use Photoshop under CX Office if needed
> or use GIMP. She was having a bit of frustration with GIMP until I
> installed GIMPShop, which she loves now. She also doesn't mind not
> having to shell out the extra $$$ for more photoshop, since she's
> retired.
>
well at this point i am through trying to convert people...
i really do not want to be doing what *most* people do anyway...
although i've linked this shot before...
here is one i did quite easily in the GIMP:
http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/electric.jpg
although i later played with Photoshop and was able to come up
with similar results...it was actually easier with the GIMP
Kouros
> "Linųnut" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?lin=F8nut?="@bone.com> wrote in message
> news:x5mdnVjCBPK...@comcast.com...
>
>>Highland Ham poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>
>>
>>>I don't believe the general public will ever accept any necessity for use
>>>of
>>>the CLI.
>>
>>Why not, they did it for DOS.
>>
>
>
> While you and I may appreciate the CLI, the casual home user will not.
> Telling them that it's the same 15 year old "feature" that DOS had isn't
> going to change that.
True, but tell them it's for advanced administration tastks, and you're
not lying.
EVerything the average user could want to do is right in front of them
in the GUI. Anything else which is best left to an advanced user anyway,
inolves a little more thought. That's fine by me.
William Poaster
Fisher wrote:
>> If something works, people stick to it. And Windows *does* work. You
>> can browse the web, send emails, listen to music, watch DVDs, edit
>> photos and documents, play video games, etc. (That you can do these
>> things in Linux too is not the point here, mind you.) Its hardware
>> support is the best out there. Why should people start using Linux if
>> they see no problem with Windows? Because of computer viruses? They
>> are called *computer* viruses, not *Windows* viruses (which would be
>> correct term, and I suggest you use that term whenever possible),
>
> This a very good point, correcting the term to "Windows Viruses" is spot
> on, "Windows Spyware" and "Windows Malware" should also be used amongst
> others.
Absolutely correct, I quite agree. The viruses are usually labelled
"W32.xxx.xxx", such as the W32.Blaster.Worm, & guess what the "W" stands
for! ;-)
<snip>
--
DFS -self confessed idiot:-
"Nothing wrong with laughing like an idiot. I do it all the time."
Wednesday 17 August 2005 5:03:19 am
Message-ID: <bGyMe.6989$F_7....@fe06.lga>
William Poaster
Köhlmann wrote:
A "cretinlet" then? Or "wannabecretin" perhaps? ;-)
7
> 7 wrote:
>
>> Sell a computer with dual boot windopes and a couple of GNU/Linux
>> distros pre-installed (Say Mepis, Knoppix, and Quantian) and they
>> sell like hotcakes!!!!
>>
> Who sells such computers? Surely they would get their asses dragged
> through the courts by Bill and Steve.
I do, and yes microshat would get its ass kicked if they even thought
they have a say in what can be sold and how. Something called
anti-trust and anti-monopoloy rules etc.. I'm sure their legal department
can work it out it 2 seconds flat how many millions they would lose
in the seconds it takes to say convicted monopoly x 2.
Captain Dondo
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:06:08 -0500, Andrew <ea...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I work part time at Sears, selling tv sets. (ok so it's the electronics
>>dept. but who cares *heh*) When you try to explain the differences
>>between HD, ED, DLP, Plasma, LCD, LCD-Projection, Picture Tube.. you get
>>some blank stares, and sometimes some ugly ones.
>
>
> Sears.
>
I don't think so.... Some time ago I read a comment by a writer that
has stuck with me.... "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistuiguishable from magic" or something along those lines....
For the vast majority of people (myself included) there are many, many
aspects of technology that are, for all practical purposes, magic.
We twiddle the buttons, and hope that we will get some fortuitous
result. Explaining that magic takes years of learning in school; most
of us simply don't have the time and the inclination to learn everything....
So - telling someone about the technical benefits of this v. that (linux
v. windows, plasma v. LCD) is pretty much pointless unless they have the
background to understand it. They (we) are much better served simply by
saying, 'It's magic'.
Just my $0.02....
lqu...@uku.co.uk
> booted over to Linux... and a friend is over and needs
> to use my machine... they have never even noticed...
> so i know that Linux is quite viable for the average joe!
One of my machines currently boots linux. When my kids (teenagers) see
me on it they notice that something is "different" and ask me what that
is. The entire look of the desktop and window-manager is different
enough to give strong visual clues that something is "different" about
the machine.
It's different but they are able to figure out how to use it. They are
used to clicking the "Blue E" icon to start Internet Explorer so when
they see the Fire Fox icon it isn't obvious what that is. But once they
start Fire Fox using it as a web-browser isn't any different from using
IE. Apps like Open Office and Abi Word are easier for them to associate
since the words "Office" and "Word" give strong clues as to what the
application will do.
So while Linux is "different" for them it's certainly more than usable.
A decent analogy is that it's like driving a friends car or a rental
car.
It's a "little different" at the periphery... the light switch may be
in a different location and the heat/AC controls are different. But the
differences are easy enough to figure out and the two share much more
in common than they differ.
Andrew
Sometimes just saying it's magic works, but *heh* most times it doesn't.
ex: LCD-Rear Projection and LCD panel tvs .. when they ask what is the
difference. My typical response is "LCD-Rear Projo. just gives a wider
viewing angle. .. What type of room will you have this in. A long and
narrow with the tv at one end? then get a rear projection. Otherwise
get a LCD-Rear Projection." I've worked at sears for a year and a half.
You wouldn't believe how many times I have tried to explain the
differences between the different types of tvs. And wound up just
confusing the customers. That isn't just me, that is everyone in the
dept. As you said it's just a lack of inclination to understand it, on
the part of the customer. It's the same for linux vs. windows. Don't
try to explain the differences. Most don't care. Most just want to
know can they do what they want. And if so .... "how"?
Jim
Not only that, independents are finding it easier to sell Linux PCs as
well. Case in point: me. I sold two machines today loaded with
Knoppix/Debian. Both secondhand Dell laptops. Both with everything
working. Both went faster than Windows boxes ever did. Bonus: the
clients didn't have to ask for the license/manual/box, they got the DVD
and a sixty page looseleaf of basic HOWTO's each. 'Cos I'm a nice guy.
What were they sold on? Software licensing? Nope. The fact that they got
the DVD and a manual? Nope. The fact that they could freely distribute
copies of the DVD? Nope.
It was because they turned on the systems and saw everything they needed
was right there on customised package installs. What did it cost them
for the software? Diddly squat. They paid for the hardware.
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk
Maybe the Internet has the answers I need. It certainly answered my
questions about wang enhancement.
Josh
I did reply to you. Maybe you should learn how to use your news reading
program instead of making an ass of yourself. Josh
Patrick Grimbergen wrote:
> Josh wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> At least have the courage to read my awnser and respond to what I say... now
> it's official... troll
>
> *ploink*
Josh
So you are going to sacrafice your son's education just because you are
a Linux fanatic?
Maybe you should think back to when you were that age and how difficult
it was not fitting in with the crowd. Now think about how your poor son
is going to feel when everyone else can use the software that may be
provided but your son can't.
He will be laughed at and treated like some kind of a daft and his
adolesence will only add to that.
What a fool you are using your son as some kind of a sacraficial lamb
in order to prove a point.
Josh
Jim wrote:
> when my son starts Secondary school in September, he will have with him
> a laptop loaded with Linux. Along with a letter stating that if it
> doesn't work on his laptop, he won't be learning it.
>
philo
> So while Linux is "different" for them it's certainly more than usable.
> A decent analogy is that it's like driving a friends car or a rental
> car.
>
> It's a "little different" at the periphery... the light switch may be
> in a different location and the heat/AC controls are different. But the
> differences are easy enough to figure out and the two share much more
> in common than they differ.
>
Well...I have two different sets of friends:
1) The type who will edit their registry successfully...
two weeks after getting their first computer.
2) The type who could not figure out how to plug in a mouse
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:18:48 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Ray Ingles" <sorc...@dmc22317.local> stated in post
> slrndgm700....@dmc22317.local on 8/23/05 5:48 AM:
>
>> In article <BF2FBFB8.2AB12%SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID>, Snit wrote:
>>
>>> For Linux to be usable for the average user does it have to be "tweeked"?
>>
>> Not really. The only tweak I did for my parents when I put them on Ubuntu
>> was to make the fonts bigger, and I'd have done that no matter what platform
>> they were on. They were already using Thunderbird and Firefox, so they didn't
>> even notice a change there.
>
> I think for people who do little other than e-mail and web surfing - which
> is a *lot* of people - there is no modern OS that will not serve them
> well... accept perhaps Windows because of the huge risk of malware.
>>
>> Now, *all* computers need maintenance, just like cars. There's no point in
>> pretending otherwise. (If nothing else, installing security updates.) Either
>> the user does it themselves, or they have someone else (a family member,
>> friend, or paid tech) do it. I was doing it for my parents before when they
>> were on Windows, and I'm still doing it on Linux.
>>
>> The difference is I can do maintenance both *securely* and *remotely* now.
>
> And there is less risk of malware on Linux (or OS X) even if you are late or
> neglect to install a security update...
>
> No argument here...
>
>
In addition, with most newbie friendly distros, updating a Linux box is
a lot simpler than doing the same to XP, or even OSX. Since the update
mechanism handles everything at once. You don't need to update the OS
and bits, and then the office suite, and then the browser, and then
the....
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFDC3kvd90bcYOAWPYRAmyUAJ98j56H+qUK+yc6Q/8FdtSOmQwy7gCgjZk8
4NLZAjN0AC5kZVlwVa73keY=
=CKw0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The real fun of living wisely is that you get to feel smug about it
-- Hobbes
7
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:50:30 GMT, 7
> <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
>
>>Peter wrote:
>>
>>> Who sells such computers? Surely they would get their asses dragged
>>> through the courts by Bill and Steve.
>>
>>
>>I do, and yes microshat would get its ass kicked if they even thought
>>they have a say in what can be sold and how. Something called
>>anti-trust and anti-monopoloy rules etc.. I'm sure their legal department
>>can work it out it 2 seconds flat how many millions they would lose
>>in the seconds it takes to say convicted monopoly x 2.
>
> A fact which renders all the more silly the idea that Microsoft is trying
> to get Linux outlawed...
Microshat is applying illegal pressure on vendors through
a system of illegal subsidies to its favourites different
from its rivals in order to put down its rivals.
As a monopoly all it takes is a precisely
targetted bullet with their sales director name on it to nail
them to the wall completely fscked and dead, and yes lying in
court is perjury for those sales directors that think they can
get away with it, and shop them for a few billion on this one
because they are a convicted monopoly x 2.
Jean-David Beyer
last time it happened it took a long time to obtain a conviction, and then
they bought off the government so the conviction had no practical
consequences. Why would it be different this time?
--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 16:20:00 up 69 days, 10:15, 3 users, load average: 4.40, 4.29, 4.27
7
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:19:21 GMT, Aragorn <str...@telenet.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday 23 August 2005 16:32, Postmaster stood up and spoke the
>>following words to the masses...:
>>
>>> Dear Sirs,
>>>
>>> I find that these sort of posts raise important questions.
>>>
>>> 1. How much does Microsoft pay trolls to trash talk their
>>> competition ?
>>
>>From what I've heard - and what has already been proven - a number of
>>them are actually on the Microsoft payroll.
>
> Just out of curiosity, can you provide a link to the proof?
You just have to search google for it.
At one time, 17 odd people were specifically employed
for this task. Since then they have been employing astroturfing companies
like edelman that act as third parties to try
and distance itself from lawsuits.
To no avail of course. If the money trail is linked, they are fscked
by anything the third party may say on their behalf on the back of an
astroturfing campain contract. Also their own staff could snitch on them at
any time, e.g. over a pay rise demand, making it a dangerous
prospect to follow this path and involve too many people in
illegal astroturfing campaigns.
Franz Fripplfrappl
> This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
> built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
> at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
> we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
> must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
> install our own.
> We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
> section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
> could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
> Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
> not servers.
>
> Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based
> systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> refurb. units.
>
> The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
> Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not
> having to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems
> come with a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
>
> To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement.
> We found out rather quickly that people are just not interested in
> Linux.
> It's that simple.
> Talk to them, explain to them the advantages of Linux, the security,
> the cost savings the immunity to virus and the stability and you will
> be met with a blank stare and a question like:
> Can I use iTunes /Quicken / Microsoft Office ---add application here-
>
> The other problem is the person upgrading from an older machine that
> has a lot of software as well as a printer scanner or other hardware.
> When we inform them that most if not all of their software will not
> work with Linux, but Linux does have replacements, they are just not
> interested because they have an investment already and don't wish to
> switch.
>
> It's even worse for hardware, especially printers, many of which are
> windows only.
>
>
> While we have sold a few Linux systems, almost every single one of them
> has been returned to the shop and usually by very angry customers who
> for some reason think we clipped them.
>
> We regularly entertain representitives from hardware software companies
> that also sell to our competition and they forewarnwed us about Linux
> being the kiss of death as far as trying to sell a preloaded boxen with
> Linux.
>
> We sure found that out the hard way and the shop no longer offers
> Linux.
> I am back at university but I plan on keeping in touch with the shop to
> see if anything in the market changes.
>
> I really doubt it though because Linux is just not wanted by users.
>
> Please excuse my English
> Josh Andersen
Maybe so, but the trick these days is to sell service and ideas, not just
hardware and software. Put ideas into heads and the sales come.
Talk potential and not limitations. Many sell Linux by dissing Windows.
Forget Windows. Give 'em what they want, a computer that addresses their
needs.
Tim Smith
CyberDroog wrote:
> Of course. Who here could, if stranded on a desert island or thrust back
> in time 5,000 years, build a working computer processor from scratch?
>
> That is a deceptively complex question. On the surface a person may gloss
> over the core of it and simply say that of course there are people who can
> build processors, that's why we have them. True. But can those people
> also mine and purify silicon and other raw materials? Can they build the
> machines that build the processors? Can they hunt for animals or sow
> crops to feed themselves while doing this? Can they even create a simple
> Bic lighter to awe the natives into submission?
An interesting variation on this is to ask if we could rebuild if we lost
our technology today, rather than if we were thrust back in time. E.g.,
suppose some widespread disaster (war, for example) led to the destruction
of almost all of our machines.
We keep all our knowledge, but we lose all our tools. Could we rebuild?
At first, the answer is "of course!"...worst case, we could just follow the
progression that our ancestors did from stone-age times to modern times,
right? However, it's not that obvious: they had access to a lot of
easily-obtained resources that we do not. We need to use deeper and more
advanced mines nowadays to get things that were almost just laying around
back then, for example. In other words, it takes more technology to get
started in today's world than it did in stone-age times.
--
--Tim Smith
Jericho Swarm
Josh - to be direct - your store managers are idiots. It would only
have take a small amount of R&D and a high-level SWOT analysis to learn
that preloaded Linux boxes wouldn't sell. Did anyone research the
industry demand for such products? Are your competitors selling any
Linux boxes?
Linux has practically no market share in the computer desktop industry
(although it is beginning to take hold via thin clients). As a mere 15
minutes of research would reveal - the server market is where Linux
shines.
Perhaps your managers should hire a strategic business consultant. It
doesn't sound like they know what they're doing.
Josh
That is fine for the likes of Novell but it doesn't work well with
desktop systems sold mostly to small businesses and consumers.
What services are we to sell them?
The systems come complete with a 1 year warranty which includes
software and virii adware removal as well.
> Talk potential and not limitations. Many sell Linux by dissing Windows.
> Forget Windows. Give 'em what they want, a computer that addresses their
> needs.
That is excatly my point, they don't want it.
They simply do not see a need to replace software they most likely
already own or hardware, like printers that will not work with Linux.
It's really contraindiction because on the one hand price is foremost,
which why we also sell refurbished units, but yet when we offer to drop
the price even more by offering a Linux system, they don't seem
interested.
One last observation, customers tend to have an expert in the family or
rely on friends for advice particularly if they are not computer savvy
and most of our customers, excepting businesses, are not.
The Linux word is like the black plague. Sometimes because of
misinformed family experts, but a kiss of death anyhow.
People by nature want a proven product that others are using as well
and Windows is what they want.
No matter what anyone in this list says, selling Linux based home
systems is very difficult and the main reason is because people just
don't want them.It's that basik. Josh
Aragorn
words to the masses...:
> That has to be the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard of.
> So you are going to sacrafice your son's education just because you
> are a Linux fanatic?
The boy would have a much better chance to learning about information
technology when using Gnu/Linux than he would when using Microsoft
Windows.
People who study Microsoft software will be good at using, installing
and configuring Microsoft software, but they won't know a damn thing
about real computer technology.
This is exactly why Germany is using Free & Open Source Software - on
Gnu/Linux as well as on Free-/Net-/OpenBSD - as the foundation for
their IT training.
> Maybe you should think back to when you were that age and how
> difficult it was not fitting in with the crowd.
I'm not *Jim,* to whose post you top-replied. However I do know all too
well why I didn't fit in with the rest, and computers had nothing to do
with that. It had to do with my handicap and with the fact that the
others were worse than pigs.
> Now think about how your poor son is going to feel when everyone else
> can use the software that may be provided but your son can't.
So the quality of the boy's education has to depend upon being a
conformist now? If all the other kids decide to rob a store and rape
some girls, then you would have your son participate in that too?
Now *that* is ridiculous...
> He will be laughed at and treated like some kind of a daft and his
> adolesence will only add to that. What a fool you are using your son
> as some kind of a sacraficial lamb in order to prove a point.
He's not. He's choosing to buy a laptop with an operating system that
will aid the boy in developing his IT skills _and_ his neurons in a
much more efficient way.
P.S.: Top-posting is typical for newbies and trolls. I doubt that
you're a newbie, considering that which all the other responders have
said about you.
If you want to make a serious case, then at least post according to the
Netiquette rules, as I have just done.
Have a nice day! ;-)
--
With kind regards,
*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
7
> 7 wrote:
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>>
>>>7 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sell a computer with dual boot windopes and a couple of GNU/Linux
>>>>distros pre-installed (Say Mepis, Knoppix, and Quantian) and they
>>>>sell like hotcakes!!!!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Who sells such computers? Surely they would get their asses dragged
>>>through the courts by Bill and Steve.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do, and yes microshat would get its ass kicked if they even thought
>> they have a say in what can be sold and how. Something called
>> anti-trust and anti-monopoloy rules etc.. I'm sure their legal department
>> can work it out it 2 seconds flat how many millions they would lose
>> in the seconds it takes to say convicted monopoly x 2.
>>
> What's the difference if they are convicted of being a monopoly or not?
Easier to bring charges and convict them again through the abundance
of paperwork available from case proceedings.
In a large number of instances, they settle out of court to avoid
convictions at all cost. One or two convictions too many
and it opens the floodgate for near automatic carbon copy wave of
litigations. Being a big monopoloy, they can't afford such a torrent
sucking at their revenue big time.
gizmo99
TheLetterK wrote:
> Josh wrote:
> > This past summer holiday I work at small computer store who sell custom
> > built computer system. We also sell refurbished units that we purchase
> > at auction and liquidation sales. We are a Microsoft partner and thus
> > we are able to legally install Windows on these machines although we
> > must wipe any version of Windows that might be on our refurb units and
> > install our own.
> > We have built up a good reputation in the community, which is a poor
> > section, for offering decent computers at very low prices to people who
> > could not afford to buy a computer otherwise.
> > Of course we also sell to businesses as well, but only desktop systems
> > not servers.
> >
> > Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based
> > systems (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our
> > refurb. units.
> >
> > The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
> > Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not
> > having to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems
> > come with a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
> >
> > To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement.
> > We found out rather quickly that people are just not interested in
> > Linux.
>
> 'demonstration'? Put up three boxes in the shop. One running Windows,
> one running SuSE, and one running Mandriva. Let the people ask questions
> about them on their own.
You need to add a little application to the Windows box. Hook it
straight to the internet and have the program count the seconds until a
succesful attack is detected.
That will help sell some Linux boxes.
Patrick Grimbergen
At least you know what you are talking about, most of the time they don't
even know that in the stores over here.... some 16 y.o. girl selling TVs,
PCs and god knows what ever, and all they can say is that the one that is
more expensive is probably better....
Patrick Grimbergen
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:26:07 -0700, Josh wrote:
> ...
>> Last year the shops partners decided to try and sell Linux based systems
>> (Suse and Mandriva) both on our new units and more so on our refurb.
>> units.
>>
>> The idea was to save the customer even more money by not installing
>> Windows and also to save the shop technical support issues by not having
>> to deal with Windows virus and adware programs. All our systems come with
>> a 1 year warranty which includes software as well.
>>
>> To say the Linux experiment was a disaster is an understatement. We found
> ...
>
> Best Buy is going to be selling Linux PCs, I guess if you are correct
> their decision will be a disaster; however if Best Buy is successful, then
> we will all know that is works. Marketing, marketing, marketing. Guess
> your company did it wrong. My suspicion is Linux PCs *will* sell through
> the Best Buy chain successfully.
Wall*Mart is already selling Linux PCs and LapTops, so best Buy is not the
first major chain to do so.
ray
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:20:42 -0500, Proteus <pro...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>I was in Yahoo News Tech Linux news about (give or take) 4 months back,
>>honest. That select (I forget how many, but it was significant) Best Buy
>>retail stores would be selling Linux PCs. I even printed the news article
>>and showed it to the Best Buy computer sales people at my local BB, as
>>they know I am a linux user and a regular buyer there (I teach college all
>>online, so buy lots of computer stuff). I will search for the news
>>article, but if anybody else can find it please post the link if it
>>exists, etc.
>>
>
> Well, here's a story from last year about Walmart selling Linux PC's.
> Anyone know how this worked out? I don't pay any attention to the computer
> section at Walmart.
>
> http://www.silicon.com/hardware/desktops/0,39024645,39119726,00.htm
It won't do you any good - they only sell them on the internet store.
Jim
> That has to be the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard of.
> So you are going to sacrafice your son's education just because you are
> a Linux fanatic?
No. I'm teaching him not to depend on just one person/company/whatever
to fulfill his technology/education/whatever needs.
> Maybe you should think back to when you were that age and how difficult
> it was not fitting in with the crowd.
When I was 11 I didn't /want/ to fit in with the crowd. Now look at me,
I make more money than any of 'em. And I'm a happy bunny to boot.
Now think about how your poor son
> is going to feel when everyone else can use the software that may be
> provided but your son can't.
He can't, eh? Never heard of WinE?
> He will be laughed at and treated like some kind of a daft and his
> adolesence will only add to that.
Such is life in school. Everyone gets laughed at at some point, might as
well get it over with.
> What a fool you are using your son as some kind of a sacraficial lamb
> in order to prove a point.
> Josh
>
What a galah you are to think that sending my son to school with a
laptop containing an operating system that's not vulnerable to the some
120,000 Win32 virii, worms and trojans, a lot of which circulate on
floppy disks and CDs in any secondary school, is a fool thing to do.
<snip toppostage>
Jim
Walmart sold laptop and desktop systems preloaded with Linspire when it
was still called Lindows. The /first/ high-street store to do so, which
laid the way for others (such as BestBuy) to follow. Made all the major
newswires including slashdot, AP and Reuters. Got Microsoft worried,
which is half the reason /they/ sued over the name.
Jim
they used to sell them off the shelf - literally. Right there next to
the personal CD players and clock radios.
Snit
f2ast2-...@fimbul.myth on 8/23/05 12:29 PM:
While I would like to see more third party support in Apple's update
process, it is not just the OS that gets updated via OS X's "Software
Update..."
While it is not hard to update software for many distros of Linux, look at
how much whining folks did when I asked for someone to point to instructions
a user could find to install a specific piece of software. The excuses made
for the command line and other non-intuitive methods were quite sad.
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Mark Kent
philo <ph...@privacy.net> espoused:
Maybe you should spend less time with MCSEs and rainforest tribesmen.
There is a world out there where people can SMS their friends, send
MMS messages, emails, buy things on the web, work their DVD player,
use their combination Microwave effectively...
A computer is just another machine. There is no magic.
--
end
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
I find you lack of faith in the forth dithturbing.
- Darse ("Darth") Vader
philo
<snip>
Maybe you should spend less time with MCSEs and rainforest tribesmen.
There is a world out there where people can SMS their friends, send
MMS messages, emails, buy things on the web, work their DVD player,
use their combination Microwave effectively...
Yes a computer is just a machine after all...
a tool...
but my oddball assortment of friends are a source of constant
entertainment...
that's probably why i don't have a tv set !
steve
>
> EVerything the average user could want to do is right in front of them in
> the GUI. Anything else which is best left to an advanced user anyway,
> inolves a little more thought. That's fine by me.
How would you email a user how to a map a to windows drive?
net use * \\server\share
or tell them to press this/press that/open that/wait for ever/click that...
TokaMundo
Gave us:
> 2. How much would an ISP pay to rid themselves of trolls that
> start pointless, bandwidth burning flame wars ?
Text posts on Usenet burn a minuscule amount of bandwidth.
A single DVD post (of which there are several daily) uses more
bandwidth than the entire year's text posts.
So what posts could you possibly be the master of, short of your own?