Consumer friendly trend - replaceable battery & the longest hardware & software & warranty support in the industry

[Wally J]

With smartphone tech at a plateau - maybe it's time for a sustainable
user-serviceable phone with 5 major updates & 8 years of hotfix support
https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/30/23843287/fairphone-5-price-release-date-specs-features-repairable-smartphone

Fairphone is promising to update the Fairphone 5 with at least five major
Android updates beyond the Android 12 it ships with as well as eight years
of security patches. That should keep the phone usable from a software
perspective until 2031, though Fairphone's press release says it's aiming
for 2033 as a stretch goal.

For reference, the company released its last software update for the 2015
Fairphone 2 earlier this year, bringing to an end seven years of software
support, handily beating Android competitors like Samsung and Google (which
both currently offer up to five years of security updates). The Fairphone 5
also ships with a five-year warranty.

The length of software support being promised for the Fairphone 5 is at
least partially due to Fairphone's use of an enterprise-focused chipset
from Qualcomm, the QCM6490, which is roughly equivalent in specs to the
midrange Snapdragon 778G. It's joined by 8GB of RAM and 256GB of internal
storage, expandable with up to 2TB via microSD.

A 90Hz OLED display, dual 50-megapixel cameras, and 30W fast charging. But
still just as sustainably produced, with a promise of eight years of
software support - but it is not yet released for the US customer base.

It's 6.46 inches in size with a refresh rate of 90Hz and a resolution of
1224 x 2770. Fairphone has upped the number of repair modules in this phone
to 10 because it now allows you to replace the rear cameras individually or
replace the module containing the SIM and SD Card slots.

Of course, the battery is still user-replaceable but is also bigger this
time around at 4,200mAh, supports faster 30W charging, and is rated to
survive 1,000 charging cycles.

Meanwhile, Apple's software support is the _shortest_ in the industry.

While Apple only supports one (and only one!) OS release for full hotfix
support, Android has _always_ supported hotfixes many times that!
*Apple's hotfix support is the shortest in the entire phone industry*
<https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/>

And while Apple locks batteries expressly to discourage consumer repair,
Android phones have long used user-replaceable batteries for long life!
*Apple is Locking iPhone Batteries to Discourage Consumer Repairs*
<https://www.macrumors.com/2019/08/08/apple-locking-iphone-batteries-third-party/>

[Alan]

On 2023-08-30 07:48, Wally J wrote:
> With smartphone tech at a plateau - maybe it's time for a sustainable
> user-serviceable phone with 5 major updates & 8 years of hotfix support
> https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/30/23843287/fairphone-5-price-release-date-specs-features-repairable-smartphone
>

Let's just see how it actually does in the marketplace.

[rdh]

The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes
don't even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates
six or more years after launch was just too good to pass up.

I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as
customizable... well, anything. If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even
a five year) Android phone, I might switch back.

Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.

--
~rdh

[badgolferman]

rdh wrote:

>Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.

You could go back to the Blackberry...

[Wally J]

rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote

> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes
> don't even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates
> six or more years after launch was just too good to pass up.

A lot of people believe in myths and superstitions about Apple support.

You are not an iKook so I will be patient and gentle by providing facts
knowing full well there are many people whose belief are imaginary and not
based on any facts whatsoever (e.g., people with religious belief systems).

Hence, before I provide you with heartfelt facts, I state you are welcome
to switch between platforms for reasons that are your own personal ones.

However... what you just said is akin to someone saying they switched from
Toyota to Honda because their tires kept going flat on the Toyota.

What you express as your desires would make sense if you knew what you're
talking about - but unfortunately for you - everything you say - is wrong.

Please do not take this as an insult - just as friendly advice for you to
look up how long Apple supports full hotfixes for that iPhone which you
"think" is supported for "six or more years".

Here... I'll help you with the references which prove that Apple supports
only one (yes - only a single release) for full hotfixes & always has.
https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/
https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/

By the way, supporting only a single release wouldn't be so bad since Apple
does control the apps - but iOS has ten times the number of exploits too!
https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

> I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as
> customizable... well, anything.

This shows for sure that you're a normal person, and not an iKook given
there are literally thousands (upon thousands!) of useful things that
Android users do every day - which are impossible to do on iOS.

What's surprising to Apple users (who love how well the iPhone works inside
the walled garden) is all that Android customization is done WITHOUT having
to log into a mothership account 24/7 which Apple users do 365 days a year.

The Apple users are unaware that there is nothing by way of app
functionality on the iPhone that isn't already on Android.

They don't understand that the reason is extremely obvious why.
a. Apple restricts the apps that users can install on the iPhone
b. Google can't.

Examples are location spoofing, system-wide firewalls with adblocks,
graphical wi-fi & cellular signal strength debugging, Guardian Tor browser
privacy, bittorrents, customizable app launchers, setting the default
messenger, installing privacy based browsers such as ungoogled chromium,
etc.

The number of useful things that are on _every other platform except iOS_
numbers in the thousands - where you seem to inherently be aware of this.

Good for you, because both you & I used both platforms & I use each
platform daily (which none of the iKooks do) so my advice is factually
sound and true.

> If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even
> a five year) Android phone, I might switch back.

Given most Androids sold are probably Samsungs, you already have what you
stated since there are Android phones extent today that have long support.

Bear in mind almost everyone who owns an iPhone is unaware that iOS is a
monolith (only slightly changed in iOS 16) which means not only that Apple
supports only one release at a time - but that the _entire release dies_
the instant Apple puts out a new iOS version. Everything in iOS dies.

By dying, I mean the full support for iOS 16 ceases the instant that iOS 17
is released - which is a support structure NO OTHER OPERATING SYSTEM USES!

Since you're not an iKook, you perhaps will click on the relevant links
which prove that iOS has the _shortest_ support lifecycle in the industry.

UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch:
https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/

RSR patches:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224

UPGRADES:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222

Note, by way of direct comparison, Microsoft supports _multiple_ Windows
releases at the same time, and for something like almost a decade each.

Also note that, unlike iOS which is a monolith (iOS 16 excepted), that you
can get most of the operating system components (such as hardware drivers)
independently of the operating system - which iOS doesn't allow you to do!

For example, with Android, almost the entire operating system (both drivers
and dozens of fundamental components) are delivered to Androids as old as
version 4.4 (which is when they added the underlying mechanism to do it).

None of the iKooks can comprehend a word I've just heartfully and patiently
explained to you (mainly because they can't fathom the fact that iOS has
the shortest support lifecycle in the industry when you count the entire
system) where I back up every one of my factual claims with URLs which the
iKooks will never read (nor could they understand them) but you might.

Project MainLine (since renamed a few times) for asynchronous updates:
https://www.androidcentral.com/android-12-features-we-love-android-runtime-now-part-project-mainline
https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/
https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/

Project Treble for hardware drivers to be updated asynchronously:
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html
https://www.xda-developers.com/tag/project-treble/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/05/google-hopes-to-fix-android-updates-no-really-with-project-treble/

None of that is possible on iOS - which is why it's a fallacy that iOS has
a long support cycle as iOS, in fact, has the shortest support in the
computer industry (when you count all key components in the system).

Notice two very important points I make, which I make because almost every
iPhone owner believes in a completely imaginary system of what Apple
supports (even you believe iOS support isn't the shortest in the industry).

All operating systems _except for iOS_ update most of their components
forever (e.g., the drivers, the key applications, the underlying modules).

Only iOS supports the entire operating system as a primitive monolithic
blob whose entire system of software & hardware support instantly dies the
moment that a new iOS release comes out!

The fact is *there is no consumer os with _shorter support_ than iOS*

> Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.

I have a huge PC monitor where I display the entire Android phone onto it,
using the PC's screen for the sound which gives me full keyboard & mouse
(and most importantly, clipboard) control over Android - for free.

Since I'm a nice guy, and since you're not an iKook, here is a tutorial to
share both your screen and the sound of your phone over WiFi on the Mac.
https://dev.to/equiman/share-your-android-screen-and-audio-on-macos-1p64

If you want a physical keyboard, there are plenty of threads on that too.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/search?q=keyboard

In summary, you are not an iKook so everything I advise you upon is to
purposefully helpfully provide you with the details you need to make
intelligent decisions - which are the kind of decisions adults make.

[Wolf Greenblatt]

It's super easy to add a physical keyboard to any Android phone.
https://source.android.com/docs/core/interaction/input/keyboard-devices

I would think it would be just as easy to add a keyboard to the iPhone too.

[Alan]

On 2023-08-31 10:03, Wally J wrote:
> rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote
>
>> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
>> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes
>> don't even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates
>> six or more years after launch was just too good to pass up.
>
> A lot of people believe in myths and superstitions about Apple support.
>
> You are not an iKook so I will be patient and gentle by providing facts
> knowing full well there are many people whose belief are imaginary and not
> based on any facts whatsoever (e.g., people with religious belief systems).
>
> Hence, before I provide you with heartfelt facts, I state you are welcome
> to switch between platforms for reasons that are your own personal ones.
>
> However... what you just said is akin to someone saying they switched from
> Toyota to Honda because their tires kept going flat on the Toyota.
>
> What you express as your desires would make sense if you knew what you're
> talking about - but unfortunately for you - everything you say - is wrong.
>
> Please do not take this as an insult - just as friendly advice for you to
> look up how long Apple supports full hotfixes for that iPhone which you
> "think" is supported for "six or more years".
>
> Here... I'll help you with the references which prove that Apple supports
> only one (yes - only a single release) for full hotfixes & always has.
> https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/
> https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/

And here's what Arlen won't tell you.

The current version of iOS is 16.6.

And iOS 16.6 supports iPhones back to the iPhone 8...

...which came out in September...

...2017.

And guess what today is!

:-)

[Alan]

On 2023-08-31 10:03, Wally J wrote:

> They don't understand that the reason is extremely obvious why.
> a. Apple restricts the apps that users can install on the iPhone
> b. Google can't.

And yet in another thread, you argued that you couldn't get bad software
because:

"Google sees the source code"

Care to explain?

[David Higton]

In message <e52IM.207810$nEzb....@fx36.iad>

rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote:

> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes don't
> even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates six or
> more years after launch was just too good to pass up.
>
> I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as customizable...
> well, anything. If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even a five year)
> Android phone, I might switch back.

I was just reading about Fairphone, who promise exactly what you're
asking for. I have no personal experience to go on though.

> Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.

Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
do?

David

[rdh]

On 8/31/23 12:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> It's super easy to add a physical keyboard to any Android phone.
> https://source.android.com/docs/core/interaction/input/keyboard-devices
>
> I would think it would be just as easy to add a keyboard to the iPhone too.

Sure, you can connect a keyboard to an Android phone, or an iPhone. I do
it sometimes. But I don't want to pull out a second device to type on my
phone, I just want my keys back.

> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 15:52:15 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman wrote:
>>
>> You could go back to the Blackberry...

If Blackberry got back into making phones, I'd switch in a heartbeat. I
tried the Unihertz Titan Slim, but the quality wasn't there.


--
~rdh

[rdh]

On 8/31/23 15:23, David Higton wrote:
> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
> do?
>

External keyboards are fine, but it's just another thing to charge,
another thing to keep around, another thing to pull out... I'd rather
just have a keyboard on my phone.

--
~rdh

[Peter Moylin]

On 31/08/23 22:56, rdh wrote:
>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
>> do?
>>
>
> External keyboards are fine, but it's just another thing to charge,
> another thing to keep around, another thing to pull out... I'd rather
> just have a keyboard on my phone.

If you're sitting at your desk at home or at work, you just mirror the
entire phone (including keyboard, mouse & clipboard) onto the display.

The phone can be set to show up as double or triple original size too.
You can do it either with just a monitor (and nothing else) or a PC.
--
Peter Moylin

[The Real Bev]

Those are cute, but disappointing. Quite a while back I had a roll-up
near-full-size USB keyboard . Surely there's a bluetooth version
available now.

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/bluetooth-roll-up-keyboard

--
Cheers, Bev
"Let them eat shit."
-- Marcel Antoinette, Marie's little-known brother

[Alan]

On 2023-08-31 13:55, rdh wrote:
> On 8/31/23 12:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
>> It's super easy to add a physical keyboard to any Android phone.
>> https://source.android.com/docs/core/interaction/input/keyboard-devices
>>
>> I would think it would be just as easy to add a keyboard to the iPhone
>> too.
> Sure, you can connect a keyboard to an Android phone, or an iPhone. I do
> it sometimes. But I don't want to pull out a second device to type on my
> phone, I just want my keys back.

Sorry... ...the market spoke, and not enough people feel as you do.

[Theo]

There are things like:
https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/planetphones

but IMHO they scored a massive own goal by using a MediaTek chip, which is
bottom of the barrel in terms of support for Android updates from the
manufacturer.

It's not like there's a 'good' option for that out there, but using one of
the 'industrial' SoCs that Fairphone are using would be a big improvement.

(I'm not sure Qualcomm will talk to you unless you're selling N million
units, though, which is a problem for boutique phone designers)

Theo

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 23:29:29 +0200, Peter Moylin
<pe...@moylin.invalid> wrote:

>On 31/08/23 22:56, rdh wrote:
>>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
>>> do?
>>>
>>
>> External keyboards are fine, but it's just another thing to charge,
>> another thing to keep around, another thing to pull out... I'd rather
>> just have a keyboard on my phone.
>
>If you're sitting at your desk at home or at work, you just mirror the
>entire phone (including keyboard, mouse & clipboard) onto the display.

That's useless, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm sitting at my desk,
I'm going to use my desktop PC, not my phone.

The only reason I have a smart phone is to provide e-mail and web
access when I'm *not* home.

[Peter Moylin]

On 01/09/23 16:44, Ken Blake wrote:
>>If you're sitting at your desk at home or at work, you just mirror the
>>entire phone (including keyboard, mouse & clipboard) onto the display.
>
> That's useless, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm sitting at my desk,
> I'm going to use my desktop PC, not my phone.

That's fine since the whole point of computers is that you make the
computer do what you want that computer to do - which is your choice.

> The only reason I have a smart phone is to provide e-mail and web
> access when I'm *not* home.

That works fine for you but many people use a phone to make phone calls.

And, many people use a phone to send/receive mms/sms texts to/from people.
Also, many people have their calendar set up on their smart phones too.

Each of those is easier when you're as old as I am (almost 90!) and your
eyes aren't as good as they used to be so a 15-inch phone is really useful.

So is being able to find a contact or type a message on a real keyboard.
As is being able to hear the phone calls using the powerful PC speakers.

All this works while the phone is in your pocket or downstairs because the
phone only needs to be connected to the LAN to display onto your monitor.

--
Peter Moylin

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:59:37 -0700, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 8/31/23 1:23 PM, David Higton wrote:
>> In message <e52IM.207810$nEzb....@fx36.iad>
>> rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote:
>>
>>> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
>>> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes don't
>>> even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates six or
>>> more years after launch was just too good to pass up.
>>>
>>> I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as customizable...
>>> well, anything. If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even a five year)
>>> Android phone, I might switch back.
>>
>> I was just reading about Fairphone, who promise exactly what you're
>> asking for. I have no personal experience to go on though.
>>
>>> Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.
>>
>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
>> do?
>
>Those are cute, but disappointing. Quite a while back I had a roll-up
>near-full-size USB keyboard .

So did I. I used mine with my tablet back when I used a tablet. I
stopped using it, because I often found keys to be unresponsive.

> Surely there's a bluetooth version
>available now.

I don't particularly care whether it's wired or wireless, but I do
care whether it would work with my Pixel 4a phone.

If you or someone else could recommend an inexpensive reliable
portable (rollup, folding, or just very small) keyboard that I could
easily take with me when I traveled, I'd give it a try.

>https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/bluetooth-roll-up-keyboard

[Peter Moylin]

On 01/09/23 13:56, Theo wrote:
> but IMHO they scored a massive own goal by using a MediaTek chip, which is
> bottom of the barrel in terms of support for Android updates from the
> manufacturer.

These are August 2023 Smartphone Processors Rankings I found in a search.
https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-list/rating

What kind of "Android updates" are you seeking for the hardware CPU?

--
Peter Moylin

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 01 Sep 2023 07:59:56 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:59:37 -0700, The Real Bev
><bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 8/31/23 1:23 PM, David Higton wrote:
>>> In message <e52IM.207810$nEzb....@fx36.iad>
>>> rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
>>>> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes don't
>>>> even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates six or
>>>> more years after launch was just too good to pass up.
>>>>
>>>> I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as customizable...
>>>> well, anything. If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even a five year)
>>>> Android phone, I might switch back.
>>>
>>> I was just reading about Fairphone, who promise exactly what you're
>>> asking for. I have no personal experience to go on though.
>>>
>>>> Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.
>>>
>>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
>>> do?
>>
>>Those are cute, but disappointing. Quite a while back I had a roll-up
>>near-full-size USB keyboard .
>
>
>So did I. I used mine with my tablet back when I used a tablet. I
>stopped using it, because I often found keys to be unresponsive.

I just found that old one, and thought I would try it on my Pixel X4.
But it has a USB connector. Are the USB adaptors that are available
any good? Here's one for only $5;

https://amzn.to/3R48bMV

I thought I would order it and try it, unless someone tells me it's no
good.

[Frank Slootweg]

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 23:29:29 +0200, Peter Moylin
> <pe...@moylin.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 31/08/23 22:56, rdh wrote:
> >>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
> >>> do?
> >>
> >> External keyboards are fine, but it's just another thing to charge,
> >> another thing to keep around, another thing to pull out... I'd rather
> >> just have a keyboard on my phone.
> >
> >If you're sitting at your desk at home or at work, you just mirror the
> >entire phone (including keyboard, mouse & clipboard) onto the display.
>
> That's useless, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm sitting at my desk,
> I'm going to use my desktop PC, not my phone.
>
> The only reason I have a smart phone is to provide e-mail and web
> access when I'm *not* home.

If that's *your* only use of your smartphone, then using your computer
(instead of your smartphone) when you're at home is indeed the sensible
thing to do.

But - as also Peter later explained -, a smartphone can do *so* much
*more* than just e-mail and web, and for many of those uses a large
display or/and large keyboard or/and 'mouse' or/and ... is very, very
useful.

And note this:

[Ken Blake]

On 1 Sep 2023 19:03:55 GMT, Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 23:29:29 +0200, Peter Moylin
>> <pe...@moylin.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 31/08/23 22:56, rdh wrote:
>> >>> Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
>> >>> do?
>> >>
>> >> External keyboards are fine, but it's just another thing to charge,
>> >> another thing to keep around, another thing to pull out... I'd rather
>> >> just have a keyboard on my phone.
>> >
>> >If you're sitting at your desk at home or at work, you just mirror the
>> >entire phone (including keyboard, mouse & clipboard) onto the display.
>>
>> That's useless, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm sitting at my desk,
>> I'm going to use my desktop PC, not my phone.
>>
>> The only reason I have a smart phone is to provide e-mail and web
>> access when I'm *not* home.
>
> If that's *your* only use of your smartphone, then using your computer
>(instead of your smartphone) when you're at home is indeed the sensible
>thing to do.

Almost only use. I sometimes use it as phone, of course, and I
sometimes read Kindle books on it..

[Theo]

The Planet Computers phones are stuck on:

Gemini: Android 8.1 (released 2017, out of security support)
Cosmo: Android 9 (released 2018, out of security support)
Astro Slide: Android 11 (released 2020)

Meanwhile we're currently on Android 13 and expecting a release of 14 this
month.

So, while they are still all on sale, you're getting a 3-6 year old OS and a
lack of security updates.

Theo

[Wally J]

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote

> So, while they are still all on sale, you're getting a 3-6 year old OS and a
> lack of security updates.

There are at least three ways, fundamentally, to approach your objections.

The first is the way you're approaching it - which seems to be that you're
saying the reason they're not updating the Android OS to the next major
version and/or they're not updating the hotfix patches where needed is
because the processor is not a Qualcomm processor - but I'm not sure that
the version of Android is expressly dependent on the processor since they
can port Android to almost anything they "want" to port Android to, right?

Moving forward to your stated problem set (ignoring the processor
hardware), there are still two more ways to look at the problem set.

One is to realize it's a business decision by the manufacturer of the phone
whether or not they want to support another Android version - and likewise,
it's another business decision by the maker of the phone whether or not
they want to support hotfixes - and yet - there are already other business
decisions made by Google and developers to support _all_ phones that are
Android for dozens of the most critical core modules which are updated
using the Google Play Services mechanism (aka Project Mainline).

The more liberal third way to look at the problem set is to realize that
Android is a mature operating system - where nobody really cares what the
major version of the operating system is - given almost anything that's new
has been back ported to the older versions long ago - and there isn't all
that much which is new (which is what happens with mature platforms).

What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).

I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.

What you're NOT getting are the ten times as many zero-day exploits that
iPhones have where those exploits are expressly because iOS does NOT have
the kind of seamless daily update to scores of critical operating system
modules every single day - to _billions_ of Android phones of version 4.4+.
https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

... What would you rather have? ...

An iPhone whose number of zero-day holes is astronomical, and getting worse
year over year to the tune of twice a month and, even worse, an iPhone
whose full hotfix support instantly dies the moment a new release is
shipped, and, *as a result, has _ten times_ as many _active_ exploits*...

... or ...

An Android which is malware scanned upon every installation and scanned
every day and which is seamlessly updated daily (over the Google Play
System daily) for over two dozen critical modules no matter how old that
Android phone is (as long as it's Android 4.4 or higher)?

... Your choice ...

[badgolferman]

Wally J wrote:

>Here... I'll help you with the references which prove that Apple
>supports only one (yes - only a single release) for full hotfixes &
>always has.
>https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/
>https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-
>flaws-in-latest-os-releases
>https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/

As you imply, Apple's security hotfixes (updates) are only guaranteed
for the latest full upgrade, which currently is iOS 16.x. In rare
cases they may make the security patches available for a prior version
of iOS such as 15.x. But to be fair, every iPhone will receive at
least 5-6 full iOS versions, which each will contain updates as they
become available. So that means iPhones will remain fully supported
with security patches over that time span so long as the user upgrades
to each new version of iOS and also downloads the security patches
(hotfixes).

I think you're saying Android does it differently and you don't have to
upgrade to new full versions of the OS, yet you can still receive
security patches even if your phone has the original version. If this
is true, why do you think Android's model is better?

[Wally J]

badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote

> As you imply, Apple's security hotfixes (updates) are only guaranteed
> for the latest full upgrade, which currently is iOS 16.x.

Hi badgolferman,

As you're well aware - I will agree with any sensible point of view.
No matter whom it is from - as I care what people say - not who they are.

Also, I will assume you have the capacity to understand my response.
Which contains detail I don't normally bestow upon ignorant iKooks.

However... I assume you're an adult - with at least normal cognition.

With adults, I provide nuance in detail versus when I speak with kids who
don't have the capacity to comprehend the complex issues I discuss below.

As you're well aware, I know far more about Apple than the iKooks do,
simply because I read reports and I can comprehend the detail in them.

*Specifically, it's a fact Apple says they only fully support 1 release*
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/deployment/depc4c80847a/web

Note that's completely different from non-Apple operating systems!
By way of example, M$ fully supports multiple releases, as does Google.

*It's only Apple who says they fully support only a single release*

> In rare
> cases they may make the security patches available for a prior version
> of iOS such as 15.x.

I have a good memory where we've discussed the fact that _every_ operating
system purveyor can (and does) choose to selectively patch the most
egregious of bugs in _any_ release (Android does so way back to 4.4!).

If Apple (& Google & Microsoft) didn't patch the most egregious of bugs in
the older releases, they'd have people throwing their devices over a bridge
just to get rid of them... so it makes sense that _all_ the operating
system purveyors selectively patch whatever they feel is better patched
than left unpatched.

But selectively patching an operating system is like spritzing up a used
car before you sell it by putting a new coat of paint on it to make it more
palatable but it's not the same as fixing all the problems you know of.

> But to be fair, every iPhone will receive at
> least 5-6 full iOS versions, which each will contain updates as they
> become available.

Here is where adults need to engage their innate capacity to comprehend
complexity, badgolferman. The child-like iKooks think there is something
magical about a release number such as iOS 12 versus iOS 13 just as they
think there's something magical about Android 12 versus Android 13.

There isn't anything magical about a release in terms of security updates
on Android, for example, where Android 4.4+ gets the security updates to
more than two dozen Project Mainline modules which form the Android core.
https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/

To compare the way iOS updates to the way Android updates, people need an
adult capacity to comprehend detail - because they update completely
differently.

In its simplest term *iOS updates via a primitive synchronous monolith*.
Android (and all other operating systems) update via asynchronous layers.

If you don't understand how both operating systems update (and clearly,
none of the iKooks has any concept of how either one updates itself), then
you can't make any conclusion about how great you feel it is when you move
from what you call iOS 12 to what you'd call iOS 13, since Android, by way
of comparison (and every other operating system except iOS!) updates from
Android 12 to Android 12 (plus a bit) to Android 12 (plus a bit more) to
Android 12 (plus a bit more than that) to Android 12 (plus even more),
every single day for billions of Android devices around the world on every
manufacturer's platform (whether that's Google, Samsung, Moto or whatever).

Therefore, to claim anything about what you call "five to six full iOS
versions" is completely meaningless when you're talking to someone well
educated on these differences - where you actually believe that "five to si
iOS versions" is somehow (magically?) meaningful - when in that same time
period every other operating system (except iOS!) has updated thousands of
times when iOS has only updated "five to six" times.

Probably you don't understand a word I said above, but "five or six"
versions is a pittance compared to the five or six _thousand_ updates all
other operating systems have undergone in that same time period.

BTW, with iOS 16, Apple has _started_ to move away from its atrociously
primitive monolithic update mechanism, to a step toward what all others do.
RSR patches: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224

> In terms of security patches - So that means iPhones will remain fully supported

> with security patches over that time span so long as the user upgrades
> to each new version of iOS and also downloads the security patches
> (hotfixes).

See above. In the time that iOS updated it's atrociously primitive monolith
"five or six" times, all the other operating systems updated their layered
operating systems five or six _thousand_ times (or something akin to that).

I don't really expect you to understand what I'm trying to explain to you,
as I'm quite well aware I've explained it many times in the past - but
please stop saying that "five or six times" is anything special as Android
does what it takes Apple five or six years to do in about five or six days.

If you can't understand how atrociously primitive the iOS update mechanism
is compared to all other common consumer operating systems, you can't
fathom how utterly meaningless it is for you to claim that "five or six"
iOS updates is a big deal. It's absolutely pitifully worthless.

Which, by the way, is a key reason why iOS has twice as many zero-day bugs
as Android, and ten times as many _exploited_ zero day bugs as Android has.
https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

To repeat the point in child-like terms, in the time it takes Apple to
update five or six iterations of iOS, all the other operating systems have
updated their operating systems something like five or six thousand times.

> I think you're saying Android does it differently and you don't have to
> upgrade to new full versions of the OS, yet you can still receive
> security patches even if your phone has the original version.

You have to understand I speak with the iKooks like I speak to a five year
old, where I am forced by their complete lack of adult compressive skills
to dumb down the messaging to something a person of IQ 40 understands.

Here are some of those dumbed-down points I make to the child-like iKooks.
a. Android and iOS update completely differently.
b. Hence, you can't compare them unless you understand how they update.
c. iOS updates periodically in synchronous layers (the new RSRs excepted)
d. While Android updates thousands of times a year in asynchronous layers
e. So do all other operating systems except Apple operating systems.

Your choice.

> If this is true, why do you think Android's model is better?

You choose what you'd rather have given how primitive iOS updates are.

*You could choose iOS which has _ten times the exploits_ of Android*
*And, *iOS has more than twice as many zero-day holes_ than Android*
... or ...
*You can choose Android which is far safer and far more secure*
*Where the Android malware component is ameliorated by daily scans*

Your choice.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-01 15:07, Wally J wrote:
> An iPhone whose number of zero-day holes is astronomical, and getting worse
> year over year to the tune of twice a month and, even worse, an iPhone
> whose full hotfix support instantly dies the moment a new release is

> shipped, and,*as a result, has _ten times_ as many _active_ exploits*...

There is no new iPhone you can buy whose full support "dies the moment a
new release is shipped", Arlen...

...or should I just call you Liar from now on?

"Arlen the Liar" perhaps (adding a texting shortcut).

[nospam]

In article <ucqhk4$3ivrs$1...@news.samoylyk.net>, Wolf Greenblatt

<wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:

> >>Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.
> >
> > You could go back to the Blackberry...
>
> It's super easy to add a physical keyboard to any Android phone.
> https://source.android.com/docs/core/interaction/input/keyboard-devices

that's not what anyone would call 'super easy' and also demonstrates
how confused you are.

> I would think it would be just as easy to add a keyboard to the iPhone too.

you'd be wrong

it's *much* easier than what's described in that link.

all that's needed is to pair a bluetooth keyboard or connect a usb
keyboard.

[nospam]

In article <ucr2gc$3evv8$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Does it have to be integrated, or will a pocket-sized Bluetooth keyboard
> > do?
>
> Those are cute, but disappointing.

not all of them. some are very good

> Quite a while back I had a roll-up
> near-full-size USB keyboard . Surely there's a bluetooth version
> available now.

roll-up keyboards are generally awful.

a much better option is a folding keyboard, which can fold into
something the size of the phone and unfold into a reasonably good size
keyboard, with a decent feel and key depth. several companies make
them.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-09-01, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>> As you imply, Apple's security hotfixes (updates) are only guaranteed
>> for the latest full upgrade, which currently is iOS 16.x.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> As you're well aware - I will agree with any sensible point of view.
> No matter whom it is from - as I care what people say - not who they
> are.
>
> Also, I will assume you have the capacity to understand

> my response. Which contains detail I don't normally bestow upon
> ignorant iKooks.

...goes on to repeat the same "iKooks are mentally children who don't
know as much as me" bullshit he's been slinging for literal years...

Arlen is and always will be a fucking clown. 🤣

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-09-01 20:54, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2023-09-01, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote
>>
>>> As you imply, Apple's security hotfixes (updates) are only guaranteed
>>> for the latest full upgrade, which currently is iOS 16.x.
>>
>> Hi badgolferman,
>>
>> As you're well aware - I will agree with any sensible point of view.
>> No matter whom it is from - as I care what people say - not who they
>> are.
>>
>> Also, I will assume you have the capacity to understand
>
>> my response. Which contains detail I don't normally bestow upon
>> ignorant iKooks.
>
> ...goes on to repeat the same "iKooks are mentally children who don't
> know as much as me" bullshit he's been slinging for literal years...
>
> Arlen is and always will be a fucking clown. 🤣

That's pretty insulting to all those magnificent fucking clowns out there.

--
“If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
-Ronald Coase

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-08-30 10:58, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-08-30 07:48, Wally J wrote:
>> With smartphone tech at a plateau - maybe it's time for a sustainable
>> user-serviceable phone with 5 major updates & 8 years of hotfix support
>> https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/30/23843287/fairphone-5-price-release-date-specs-features-repairable-smartphone
>>
>
> Let's just see how it actually does in the marketplace.

You can actually see how it went for its predecessor.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-08-31 16:55, rdh wrote:
> On 8/31/23 12:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
>> It's super easy to add a physical keyboard to any Android phone.
>> https://source.android.com/docs/core/interaction/input/keyboard-devices
>>
>> I would think it would be just as easy to add a keyboard to the iPhone
>> too.
> Sure, you can connect a keyboard to an Android phone, or an iPhone. I do
> it sometimes. But I don't want to pull out a second device to type on my
> phone, I just want my keys back.

I have a tablet that could be bought with a keyboard. Not in the same
case, it came as a tablet, a BT keyboard, an foldable case to join the two.

Thus, big.

Yes, the tablet could be used as a phone, has a SIM port.



--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-09-01 18:07, Wally J wrote:
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote
>
>> So, while they are still all on sale, you're getting a 3-6 year old OS and a
>> lack of security updates.
>
> There are at least three ways, fundamentally, to approach your objections.

...

> What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
> version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
> happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
> Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).

No.

I don't get updates automatically on any of my "old" phones. Meaning the
manufacturer doesn't provide them.

I only get application updates, and not on all apps. Some apps even
disappear.

>
> I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
> Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
> since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.

No, I don't.

...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Wally J]

Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote

> That's pretty insulting to all those magnificent fucking clowns out there.

Given one of my two goals on this newsgroup is to expose the iKooks for
what they are, note how childish the response from Alan Browne and Jolly
Roger has been - using a kindergarten level of intellect...

Jolly Roger ==> *viciously attacks* anyone saying the truth about Apple
nospam ==> *deflects all truth* to blame Samsung for all that Apple does
Alan Browne ==> *so ignorant* he has never even heard of the walled garden

If those three prolific yet uneducated ignorant child-like iKooks left this
newsgroup, the intellectual level would begin to approach that of the adult
operating systems newsgroups (such as with Linux, Android & Windows ngs).

None of the child-like iKooks understood a word of what I explained to
badgolferman - which proves iKooks don't own an adult comprehensive level.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
>> version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
>> happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
>> Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).
>
> No.

Hi Carlos,

Yes. What you don't understand is Android updates in a series of layers.
<https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>

Your phone has been updating scores of critical hardware and software
components of your operating system from Android 4.4 to Android 14.
<https://venturebeat.com/business/google-details-project-mainline-updating-android-modules-via-google-play/>

Project Mainline has been updating all Android phones since 2019.
<https://www.howtogeek.com/413714/what-is-androids-project-mainline-and-when-will-my-phone-get-it/>

Where the number of modules seamlessly updated over the Google Framework
increases with every Android version (soon it may be the entire OS!).
<https://www.androidpolice.com/project-mainline-android-14/>

All this is completely independent of the manufacturer or carrier support!
<https://www.xda-developers.com/google-android-runtime-art-mainline-module-android-12/>

> I don't get updates automatically on any of my "old" phones. Meaning the
> manufacturer doesn't provide them.

Sigh. If I'm patient with you, I have to first inform you, as I did with
badgolferman, that the concept of "updates" is far more complex than you
seem to comprehend - which - isn't your fault - but which is clear to me.
<https://www.esper.io/blog/what-is-project-mainline>

Only someone with adult comprehensive skills can comprehend that the word
"updates" is too generic for you to make the sweeping claim you just made.
<https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>

As badgolferman did before you, nobody stands a chance of comprehending
what it means to "update" iOS or Android if they don't first understand
_how_ Android and iOS update (which clearly you do not understand).
<https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>

One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
<https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>

> I only get application updates, and not on all apps. Some apps even
> disappear.

I can't count the number of times I've explained Project Mainline on this
newsgroup - so if, after a thousand times, you _still_ don't get it, how am
I going to explain it to you once more and you'll finally get what it is?
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

The fact is, if your Android phone or tablet is Android 4.4 or above, you
_are_ getting updates to the tune of thousands of updates every year.
<https://www.androidcentral.com/project-mainline>

This is why I told badgolferman that in the course of the five or six iOS
version updates he gets on his iPhone, an Android user is getting five or
six thousand updates on his Android device - due to Project Mainline.
<https://www.androidauthority.com/google-project-mainline-984001/>

>> I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
>> Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
>> since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.
>
> No, I don't.

Yes. You do. Ever since Android 4.4 you have been getting updates daily.
<https://www.realmicentral.com/2022/02/11/project-mainline-grows-with-android-13-more-updates-go-through-google-play/>

Every operating system (except iOS!) updates continuously, in complex
layers whereas only iOS (excepting the new RSRs) is a primitive monolith.
iOS UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch:
<https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/>

iOS RSR patches:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224>

iOS UPGRADES:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222>
--
It's no longer shocking how little most people understand about updates.
Most people seem to own a child-like comprehension of technical issues.
The iKooks, for example, have _never_ clicked on a single link provided!
Even the Android users own a child-like comprehension of how s/w updates.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-02 11:25, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote
>
>> That's pretty insulting to all those magnificent fucking clowns out there.
>

> Given one of my two goals on this newsgroup is to...

...set the Usenet record for number of nym changes?

[Carlos E. R.]

That doesn't count to me as "updates". It has to be done automatically
by the manufacturer, me doing nothing at all, to count.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
>> <https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>
>
> That doesn't count to me as "updates". It has to be done automatically
> by the manufacturer, me doing nothing at all, to count.

Hi Carlos,

Sigh.

That sentiment is absurdly preposterous given it's like saying that you
don't count driver updates on Windows, for example, as updates - because
they don't come from the manufacturer of your computer (e.g., from Dell)...
or that you don't count browser updates, as updates, because they don't
come from Dell... or that you don't count firmware updates as updates,
because they don't come from Dell.

You don't have the comprehensive skills to understand that updates come
from a variety of sources (e.g., even Qualcomm firmware is now updated over
the Google Play System - read about Project Treble for more details).
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/3306443/what-is-project-treble-android-upgrade-fix-explained.html>

With your backward way of thinking, those Qualcomm firmware updates aren't
updates in your mind, because they didn't come from, oh, say, Samsung.

That's patently ridiculous, Carlos.
Insane, in fact.

It's clear that you have absolutely zero comprehension of how operating
systems update, where the only operating system you comprehend is iOS since
that is the only common consumer operating system where most of the updates
do come directly from the manufacturer.

The point is that people owning an adult level of comprehension of how
operating systems update will understand that updates are layered and that
they come from a variety of sources - depending on the type of update.

For example, unless you expressly opt out of Project Mainline Google Play
System updates, you're being updated thousands of times a year - even if
your phone goes way back to 2019 (when this process was started).

Meanwhile, in the time that iOS has had two or three updates, Android
phones have had two or three thousand updates - which - obviously - is a
key reason why iOS has more than twice as many zero-day holes and over ten
times as many _exploited_ zero-day holes than does Android.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-09-02 21:23, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>>> One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
>>> <https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>
>>
>> That doesn't count to me as "updates". It has to be done automatically
>> by the manufacturer, me doing nothing at all, to count.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Sigh.
>
> That sentiment is absurdly preposterous given it's like saying that you
> don't count driver updates on Windows, for example, as updates - because
> they don't come from the manufacturer of your computer (e.g., from Dell)...

Apple to potatoes. Each system does updates differently. On Android, it
is via manufacturers.

Not reading the rest, personal attacks below.


And removing advocacy group. Not interested in your arguments and fights.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[sms]

On 8/31/2023 8:12 AM, rdh wrote:

<snip>

> Now if only they'd release a phone with a physical keyboard.

<https://www.unihertz.com/products/titan?currency=USD&variant=40595046105278>

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> Each system does updates differently.

Not really. Windows, Linux & Android update similarly.

> On Android, it is via manufacturers.

Sigh. That's just dead wrong. Insanely wrong. Incomprehensibly wrong.

It's like saying the only company that can make tires for your Honda is
Honda - which means you're making claims that are patently ridiculous.

Google is updating 37 modules over the Internet irrespective of who made
your phone (as long as the phone is Android 10 and above), Carlos.

Please Carlos - open your mind. If you read nothing else, read this.
<https://www.androidpolice.com/project-mainline-android-14/>

HINT: If you read nothing, you'll know nothing.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-02 22:46, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> Each system does updates differently.
>
> Not really. Windows, Linux & Android update similarly.

"similarly" is NOT "the same".

'NOT "the same" IS "differently".

[Carlos E. R.]

We can say that I only consider as update doing them in the official
way. If the official way changes, then I'll change.

In any case, my old tablets/phones do not have version 10, so this new
method doesn't apply to them. And my two active phones are getting
official updates.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> We can say that I only consider as update doing them in the official
> way. If the official way changes, then I'll change.
>
> In any case, my old tablets/phones do not have version 10, so this new
> method doesn't apply to them. And my two active phones are getting
> official updates.

Hi Carlos,

What you need to understand is the English language, where you considering
every word to mean only what you comprehend is not the way language works.

Android updates itself in multiple layers - each of which is an update.

Assuming a hundred ways that Android updates itself, for you to only
consider one of those as an "update" is your choice - but it's incorrect.

However, in your defense, a lot of people are completely ignorant of the
adult complexities involved when any operating system they own is updated.

For example, iOS updates using RSRs, upgrades and updates - where the
ignorant iKooks are just like you are - in that it's too complex for them.

iOS UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch:
<https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/>

For years, the ignorant uneducated low-IQ iKooks such as Alan Browne, Jolly
Roger and nospam have been saying Apple fully patches more than one release
and yet - the fact is even Apple says *only one release is fully patched!"
iOS UPGRADES: <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222>

It was only in iOS 16 Apple started to copy the model every other OS uses.

iOS RSR patches: <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224>

Even today, those ignorant uneducated low-IQ iKooks _still_ believe that
Apple fully patches more than one release, as they're just like you are.
<https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/>
<https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases>
<https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/>

Like you, the uneducated low-IQ ignorant iKooks never read anything.
Here, for example, are c.m.a reference threads you didn't read.

*Android endlessly updates directly from Google Play Services (bypassing carriers & OEMs)*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/1lSF1ZPdpZs/m/n-wa61EFAgAJ>

*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/m/1nYOV4omAQAJ>

*Starting with Android 10, 11 or 12, what part of Android is NOT updated forever?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Tp_BYlwPFX8/m/L4no3D0HAgAJ>

*Help me understand Google's Project Treble & Project Mainline please*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/e3VoHKwm-dY/m/y4ShKfnMAAAJ>

*Google Play update all apps*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/48Qs2nHV5Io/m/5yaEX73SBAAJ>

*In the time the IOS monolith updates once - Android updates a thousand times*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/tyM38E9o9vE>
--
People who never read anything will always be wrong about everything they think.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-09-03 10:23, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> We can say that I only consider as update doing them in the official
>> way. If the official way changes, then I'll change.
>>
>> In any case, my old tablets/phones do not have version 10, so this new
>> method doesn't apply to them. And my two active phones are getting
>> official updates.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> What you need to understand is the English language, where you considering
> every word to mean only what you comprehend is not the way language works.
>
> Android updates itself in multiple layers - each of which is an update.
>
> Assuming a hundred ways that Android updates itself, for you to only
> consider one of those as an "update" is your choice - but it's incorrect.
>
> However, in your defense, a lot of people are completely ignorant of the
> adult complexities involved when any operating system they own is updated.

Not continuing reading, from the point you consider people not adult or
ignorant. That's insulting. Learn politeness if you want to talk to me.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-09-03 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Not continuing reading, from the point you consider people not adult or
> ignorant.

Pretty much par for it.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> Not continuing reading, from the point you consider people not adult or
> ignorant. That's insulting. Learn politeness if you want to talk to me.

Hi Carlos,

I tell the truth.
If you don't like the truth about yourself - whose fault is that?

For you to consider only one type of update as all updates is like you
considering only Europeans to be humans - it's just an ignorant view.

It's clear you have absolutely no comprehension of how Android updates.
The only question is whether you can learn give we've discussed this.

*Android endlessly updates directly from Google Play Services (bypassing carriers & OEMs)*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/1lSF1ZPdpZs/m/n-wa61EFAgAJ>

*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/m/1nYOV4omAQAJ>

*Starting with Android 10, 11 or 12, what part of Android is NOT updated forever?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Tp_BYlwPFX8/m/L4no3D0HAgAJ>

*Help me understand Google's Project Treble & Project Mainline please*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/e3VoHKwm-dY/m/y4ShKfnMAAAJ>

*Google Play update all apps*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/48Qs2nHV5Io/m/5yaEX73SBAAJ>

Note that most of the ignorant low-IQ uneducated iKooks think the way you do.

*In the time the IOS monolith updates once - Android updates a thousand times*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/tyM38E9o9vE>

These uneducated iKooks, such as Alan Browne, Jolly Roger and nospam have no
adult comprehension of how iOS updates let alone the complexities of Android.

<https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/>
<https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases>
<https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/>

Ignorant people can't learn.
That's _why_ they're ignorant.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-03 11:59, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> Not continuing reading, from the point you consider people not adult or
>> ignorant. That's insulting. Learn politeness if you want to talk to me.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> I tell the truth.
> If you don't like the truth about yourself - whose fault is that?

Arlen, you're just a dick.

If you don't like that truth, whose fault is that?

[Wally J]

rdh <r...@tilde.institute> wrote

> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes
> don't even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates
> six or more years after launch was just too good to pass up.

Hi rdh,

Given iKooks are always ignorant of the truth about Apple products...

By now you should no longer be ignorant of how bad Apple support is.
Apple support is the worst of all common consumer electronic platforms.

By now you should be informed Apple fully supports only a single release.
Meanwhile _every_ other platform often fully supports multiple releases.

And you should be informed EVERYTHING on that iOS monolith becomes
_instantly_ unsupported the moment Apple stops supporting that 1 release.

Meanwhile on _every other common consumer platform_, the drivers, and the
default system apps and the core modules, etc., are supported for as long
as a decade or more.

Android still fully supports all Android 10 and up phones for up to 37 core
modules which are automatically updated over the Internet every single day.

Even Qualcomm firmware drivers are supported seamlessly over the Internet.
All of this you were completely ignorant of before - but no longer.

Do you agree now that Apple support is easily the worst in the industry?

BTW, check out the battery in my free 3-year old Andriod phone...
<https://i.postimg.cc/cHVNcCjW/battery01.jpg>

You never need to charge it overnight.
You charge it when it needs to be charged.
And that takes about an hour.

Using the charger that came with the free Android phone.

[candycanearter07]

On 9/11/23 03:46, Wally J wrote:
> And you should be informed EVERYTHING on that iOS monolith becomes
> _instantly_ unsupported the moment Apple stops supporting that 1 release.
>
> Meanwhile on _every other common consumer platform_, the drivers, and the
> default system apps and the core modules, etc., are supported for as long
> as a decade or more.
>

Geezus, now I'm sad I'm stuck with an iPhone.

> Android still fully supports all Android 10 and up phones for up to 37 core
> modules which are automatically updated over the Internet every single day.
>
> Even Qualcomm firmware drivers are supported seamlessly over the Internet.
> All of this you were completely ignorant of before - but no longer.
>
> Do you agree now that Apple support is easily the worst in the industry?
>

I also dislike how they don't have any kind of compatibility mode for
software "made for older versions". At the very least, they don't
outright remove it from your phone on update.

--
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[Wally J]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote

>> Meanwhile on _every other common consumer platform_, the drivers, and the
>> default system apps and the core modules, etc., are supported for as long
>> as a decade or more.
>>
>
> Geezus, now I'm sad I'm stuck with an iPhone.

I use iOS and Android every single day - for years and years.
*The iOS devices are all garbage compared to Android*

It's not so much that the iOS devices lack useful hardware.
*It's that Apple drastically limits what iPhones can do*
(Google can't limit what an Android phone can do.)

Yet people love iPhones - just like people join religious cults.
*It doesn't have to make any sense why people like them.*

People are allowed to like the iPhone.

But what they should be is NOT ignorant about the alternatives if they're
going to lie repeatedly by claiming the iPhone is a God-like creature that
can do things that it simply never did - and certainly doesn't do.

The religious iKook zealots have been lying about support for years.
*The iPhone has the _shortest_ overall operating system support.*

Only someone educated in how operating systems update would understand.

I have iPads (and some in my family plan have iPhones) and those people
love them - but - get this - the iPhone owner is _always_ ignorant.

They can't be intelligent because they wasted their money for nothing.

Seriously.
*There's NOTHING useful iOS does that Android doesn't already do.*

And my Android phone was free in April of 2021 when T-Mobile gave every USA
postpaid customer a free 5G phone if they wanted it (they gave me three).

That free phone is more powerful than any iPhone ever sold, simply because
it has an sd slot, a battery that can jump-start your car, and the ability
to load thousands upon thousands (upon thousands!) of apps an iPhone can't.

>> Android still fully supports all Android 10 and up phones for up to 37 core
>> modules which are automatically updated over the Internet every single day.
>>
>> Even Qualcomm firmware drivers are supported seamlessly over the Internet.
>> All of this you were completely ignorant of before - but no longer.
>>
>> Do you agree now that Apple support is easily the worst in the industry?
>>
>
> I also dislike how they don't have any kind of compatibility mode for
> software "made for older versions".

Nobody knows of any end-of-life (EOL) date for half the components of the
Android operating system (e.g., mainline & treble) and another third are
always available on the play store (e.g., default apps), so there's only a
very small component of Android which isn't updated essentially forever.(1)

> At the very least, they don't
> outright remove it from your phone on update.

Classic of iPhone owners always being afraid of what isn't going to happen.
--
(1) Forever, in this case, means it's not only updated without any EOL
date, but it's open sourced so that the community can support it too.

[Nikolaj Lazic]

Dana Thu, 31 Aug 2023 10:12:10 -0500, rdh <r...@tilde.institute> napis'o:

> The reason I switched from Android to Apple, is because I was tired of
> phones that only get 18-24 months of security updates, and sometimes
> don't even get feature updates. That many iPhones kept getting updates
> six or more years after launch was just too good to pass up.
>

> I still miss a lot of features of Android, though, such as
> customizable... well, anything. If we could get an 8 year (or heck, even
> a five year) Android phone, I might switch back.

And install LineageOS on it...

[Wally J]

Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote

> With smartphone tech at a plateau - maybe it's time for a sustainable
> user-serviceable phone with 5 major updates & 8 years of hotfix support
> https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/30/23843287/fairphone-5-price-release-date-specs-features-repairable-smartphone

Just in today... the truth about Apple products (despite Apple's lies)...

Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...

*iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown*
 <https://www.ifixit.com/News/82867/iphone-15-teardown-reveals-software-lockdown>
"Repairable design undermined by parts-pairing DRM"

Today iFixIt retroactively downgraded the iPhone 14 to DO NOT PURCHASE!
*We Are Retroactively Dropping the iPhone's Repairability Score*
<https://www.ifixit.com/News/82493/we-are-retroactively-dropping-the-iphones-repairability-score-en>
"Systematic Parts Pairing Undermines Design Improvements"

What it shows is that Apple's lies about repairability even fooled iFixIt
for a while - but they have fixed that by recommending nobody purchase
either the iPhone 14 or the iPhone 15 if repairability is an issue.
Repairability of iPhone 14/15 Pro Max = 4 out of 10 (i.e., DO NOT PURCHASE!)
Repairability of iPhone 14/15 Pro = 4 out of 10 (i.e., DO NOT PURCHASE!)
Repairability of iPhone 14/15 Plus = 4 out of 10 (i.e., DO NOT PURCHASE!)
Repairability of iPhone 14/15 = 4 out of 10 (i.e., DO NOT PURCHASE!)

Note: Interestingly, iFixIt also said Apple's 5G modem team was so
incompetent that they said they felt for Steve Cook in how bad they are.

"Apple's 5G modem team has been toiling in isolation for years without
any hardware to show for it. We're not sure who [sic] to feel for,
Tim Cook's wallet or the poor Apple lawyers who had to grovel
with Qualcomm a new contract. Amazingly, the hundreds of
engineers working on this project for first-Infineon,
then-Intel, and now-Apple have yet to ship a single 5G modem
to customers. That's got to be demoralizing."
--
I supply the truth about Android and Apple products where every fact is
backed up by reliable sources such as these two iFixIt articles from today.

[candycanearter07]

On 9/26/23 13:56, Wally J wrote:
> Just in today... the truth about Apple products (despite Apple's lies)...
>
> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...

IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
about the camera (which I don't).

Of course they're tying to smoke out the old phones by removing support..

[Wally J]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote

>> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
>> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...
>
> IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
> about the camera (which I don't).

The main point was iFixIt rated the iPhone 15 series as DO NOT PURCHASE
if repairability is a concern - where the camera is only one part.

Also, iFixIt retroactively DOWNGRADED the iPhone 14 series to the same
dismal DO NOT PURCHASE rating (if repair is of a concern to the buyer).

The strategic reason Apple makes the iPhones almost impossible for a
homeowner to repair isn't so much that Apple enjoys contributing to ewaste
- it's - as you said - Apple doesn't want the phone to last all that long.

It's the same reason Apple puts those undeniably cheap anemic batteries -
which iFixit even called "anemic" since that's part of Apple's strategy.

Given all batteries degrade to a point that they no longer work, and since
the degradation is based on charge cycles, iPhone batteries die sooner.

The iKooks hate that fact - but none of them has ever taken a class in
chemistry or physics so they only quote Apple's ridiculous advertisements.

Now - to the camera you speak about - it's not clear if you own the adult
cognitive skills to comprehend iPhone cameras rarely make the top ten.

Are you aware of that fact?

The only place iPhone cameras are said to excel is in Apple advertisements.
Real world tests almost always show iPhone cameras are just OK - not great.

In summary, is your camera assessment based on Apple's advertisements?
Or on the real-world unbiased tests (e.g., from reputable camera testers)?

[Alan]

On 2023-09-26 12:46, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/26/23 13:56, Wally J wrote:
>> Just in today... the truth about Apple products (despite Apple's lies)...
>>
>> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
>> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...
>
> IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
> about the camera (which I don't).
>
> Of course they're tying to smoke out the old phones by removing support..

Really?

They're removing what support: the OS?

They're removing that after a full 6 YEARS.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-26 14:13, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote
>
>>> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
>>> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...
>>
>> IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
>> about the camera (which I don't).
>
> The main point was iFixIt rated the iPhone 15 series as DO NOT PURCHASE
> if repairability is a concern - where the camera is only one part.
>
> Also, iFixIt retroactively DOWNGRADED the iPhone 14 series to the same
> dismal DO NOT PURCHASE rating (if repair is of a concern to the buyer).

Why must you lie, Arlen?

For the record, iFixit issued no such rating.

[candycanearter07]

On 9/26/23 16:13, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote

> Now - to the camera you speak about - it's not clear if you own the adult
> cognitive skills to comprehend iPhone cameras rarely make the top ten.
>
> Are you aware of that fact?

I meant more that the camera is about the only thing they actually
change.. besides removing ports and stuff

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-09-26 15:46, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/26/23 13:56, Wally J wrote:
>> Just in today... the truth about Apple products (despite Apple's lies)...
>>
>> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
>> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...
>
> IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
> about the camera (which I don't).
>
> Of course they're tying to smoke out the old phones by removing support..

How so? My SO's iPhone 7 works fine (2016). Will be replaced by a 15 soon.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-26 14:56, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/26/23 16:13, Wally J wrote:
>> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote
>> Now - to the camera you speak about - it's not clear if you own the adult
>> cognitive skills to comprehend iPhone cameras rarely make the top ten.
>>
>> Are you aware of that fact?
>
> I meant more that the camera is about the only thing they actually
> change.. besides removing ports and stuff

I would put much stock in what Arlen says.

iPhone cameras regularly occupy a few places in the top ten:

<https://www.dxomark.com/smartphones/>

Currently, that's 3 out of the top 10, and 5 of the top 12.

But then, Arlen only posts about these scores just before the newest
iPhones are released, so he can compare an almost year-old iPhone to
everything released since then.

:-)

[Patrick]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:21:10 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> Note the news today that not only the latest iPhones received a DO NOT
>>> PURCHASE score from iFixIt (due to Apple's lies about repairability)...
>>
>> IMO there's not much (real) point to buying new iPhones unless you care
>> about the camera (which I don't).
>>
>> Of course they're tying to smoke out the old phones by removing support..
>
> How so? My SO's iPhone 7 works fine (2016). Will be replaced by a 15 soon.

Does that iPhone 7 still get full bug fix hot fix patch support from Apple?

[Alan Browne]

It was updated to iOS 15.7.9 (Sept 11 2013) - which was an "Apple
security update". I don't believe it gets hot fix patches - and not too
worried about that though some trolls will go full keyboard abuse on it.

Per Apple:

Available for: iPhone 6s (all models), iPhone 7 (all models), iPhone SE
(1st generation), iPad Air 2, iPad mini (4th generation), and iPod touch
(7th generation)

Impact: Processing a maliciously crafted image may lead to arbitrary
code execution. Apple is aware of a report that this issue may have been
actively exploited.

Description: A buffer overflow issue was addressed with improved memory
handling.

CVE-2023-41064: The Citizen Lab at The University of Torontoʼs Munk School

[Quellen]

On 27 Sep 2023 at 12:12:25 AM, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

>>>> Of course they're tying to smoke out the old phones by removing
>>>> support..
>>>
>>> How so?  My SO's iPhone 7 works fine (2016).  Will be replaced by a 15
>>> soon.
>>
>> Does that iPhone 7 still get full bug fix hot fix patch support from Apple?
>

> I don't believe it gets hot fix patches

No iPhone older than the XR gets anywhere near the patches Apple has fixed.

So it's good you don't care about your iPhone 7 not being safe to use.

Otherwise, if you cared about security, you wouldn't go near an iPhone 7.
--
Cheers, Quellen

[Alan Browne]

ROFL.

IAC, since I retired, lost my 000 license (license to kill with sub 10kT
tactical nuclear endorsement) the security of my SO's iPhone is not a
huge concern.

(She lost her 00 license after that unfortunate event in Bucharest ...
good thing we had good insurance for "accidental" sniping of diplomats.)
But they gave her a nice job in planning and accounting.

[Alan]

Nope...


...but show me a phone released in 2016 that does.

[Alan]

"Arlen".

Your name is "Arlen".

[Patrick]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 19:59:07 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
> the security of my SO's iPhone is not a huge concern.

It's what candycanearter07 said it was.

Apple makes all iPhones older than the XR insecure for the reasons that
candycanearter07 said, which is they want you to buy the newer iPhones.

You may not care Apple doesn't support an iPhone 7 but a lot of people pay
twice as much every few years for the few iPhones that are fully patched.

Which was what candycanearter07 was trying to explain to you.

[Alan]

So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?

[Alan Browne]

He's about 40 dB shy of any signal that is useful to me.

You're in the noise. Deep.

[Alan Browne]

Ah - I just fucked up and replied to it too. I shouldn't newsgroup at
this hour...

(New router installed the other day and we were having issues on (of all
things, Netflix), so I was up here trying to see what I could see. The
enemy, as they say, was me. [Embarrassing thing - new router connects
to a switch; and for some reason I routed another cable back from the
switch to the new router. So, some packets were getting waylaid or
something...]

Proof that I need to clean up the cabling around here...).

[Carlos E. R.]

I do.

So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

Fairphone? :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[candycanearter07]

On 9/27/23 05:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>
> I do.
>
> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>

I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
problem.

[Wally J]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote

>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>
>> I do.
>>
>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>
>
> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
> problem.

Hi candycanearter07,

I'm going to assume you own adult cognitive skills in my post below.

I do not know if you own adult cognition - but I know morons like Alan
Baker and Carlos and even Steve Scharf & Frank Slootweg don't own it.

What these morons don't understand is _how_ operating systems update.
Android updates, much like Windows does... in asynchronous layers.

For example, due to Project Treble, the Qualcomm drivers are updated, over
the Internet, via the Google Play Store update mechanism, asynchronously.

Just like Windows drivers are updated completely outside the realm of the
operating system support itself - such that the support is essentially
forever [1].

This happens with Android & with Windows - but not with the primitive
monolithic slab that iOS is - where those drivers are not updated if the
device can't be updated to iOS 17 (i.e., to the latest single iOS release).

Same with the key apps such as Chrome, GMail, YouTube, etc., all of which
are updated in Windows and Android completely asynchronously of the
operating system support.

More importantly, there are 34 core modules of Android (the number grows
with every Android release starting with Android 10) which are also updated
forever [1] asynchronously (and these are all donated to the AOSP such that
the support - were it to ever waver - would _still_ go on by the community.

Look up Project Mainline (which has changed names over the years).

All this is how Android updates the operating system in layers.

It's NOT how the primitive iOS monolith updates - which - again - takes an
adult level of cognition to comprehend as iOS updates as a rigid monolith.

In short, correct understanding of how operating systems update takes an
adult set of cognitive skills - simply because only iOS is a monolith.

The rest of the common consumer operating systems update in asynchronous
layers (most of which are supported forever [1]).

Very few posters to this newsgroup own the adult cognitive skills to
understand a single word that I said above. Do you?
--
[1] Forever here means far longer than the hardware will last but with no
EOL date specified such that the support easily outlasts our need for it.

[Alan]

You know that's not tenable.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-27 07:31, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/27/23 05:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>
>> I do.
>>
>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>
>
> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
> problem.

Forever?

Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?

How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
Windows 10.

[candycanearter07]

If it's a big enough problem to be on the news, then yes absolutely. How
many old systems do you know of that had newsworthy issues? It's mostly
relatively newer stuff.

[Carlos E. R.]

They offer you to update to W10 or 11.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

I update all my computers. Phones no, I can't.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> I update all my computers. Phones no, I can't.

Carlos,
Is your phone at least Android 10?

If so, the Android operating system was updated yesterday (most likely).
*And today too.*

And your Android operating system will (most likely) be updated tomorrow.
And the day after that.

*Forever.*

If you don't believe me, read any link showing up in this search.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?va=n&hps=1&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+treble>
--
Forever here means nobody knows of any end of life date, and, every module
in Project Mainline is donated to the AOSP so they can support it too.

[Wally J]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote

>>>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
>>> problem.
>>
>> Forever?
>>
>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>
>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>> Windows 10.
>
> If it's a big enough problem to be on the news, then yes absolutely. How
> many old systems do you know of that had newsworthy issues? It's mostly
> relatively newer stuff.

This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...

*Most of Android is updated forever*

With each release of Android, more and more operating system components are
being updated forever. And they're also donated to AOSP. Every one of them.

If anyone on the operating system newsgroups is _not_ aware that most of
Android is updated forever, then they don't own adult cognitive skills.

For those who are new to these operating system newsgroups, run this search
<https://duckduckgo.com/&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+and+project+treble>

--
Forever here means nobody knows of any end of life date, and, every module

in Project Mainline is donated to the AOSP for decades-long future support.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>
>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>> Windows 10.
>
> They offer you to update to W10 or 11.

1. My desktop was a powerful PC when built in 2009.
2. It's _still_ fully supported by Microsoft.
3. That's 14 years of full hotfix support.

By way of contrast, Apple support is the _worst_ in the industry.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-27 16:24, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote
>
>>>>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Forever?
>>>
>>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>>
>>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>>> Windows 10.
>>
>> If it's a big enough problem to be on the news, then yes absolutely. How
>> many old systems do you know of that had newsworthy issues? It's mostly
>> relatively newer stuff.
>
> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>
> *Most of Android is updated forever*

You've got cite for that, have you?

[Alan]

On 2023-09-27 16:28, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>>
>>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>>> Windows 10.
>>
>> They offer you to update to W10 or 11.
>
> 1. My desktop was a powerful PC when built in 2009.
> 2. It's _still_ fully supported by Microsoft.
> 3. That's 14 years of full hotfix support.

What OS is it running?

>
> By way of contrast, Apple support is the _worst_ in the industry.

Assertions aren't facts.

[The Real Bev]

On 9/27/23 4:20 PM, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> I update all my computers. Phones no, I can't.
>
> Carlos,
> Is your phone at least Android 10?
>
> If so, the Android operating system was updated yesterday (most likely).
> *And today too.*
>
> And your Android operating system will (most likely) be updated tomorrow.
> And the day after that.
>
> *Forever.*

You've been talking to ChatGPT again, haven't you?

> If you don't believe me, read any link showing up in this search.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?va=n&hps=1&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+treble>

Didn't seem to discuss anything beyond A11. I would assume that
'forever' means that if you have 10 or 11 you can also have 12, 13, 14...


--
Cheers, Bev
Why do men's hearts beat faster, their knees get weak, their throats
become dry and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather
clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[candycanearter07]

On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>
>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>
> You've got cite for that, have you?
>

The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
developed, instead of the other way around.

[Wally J]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Is your phone at least Android 10?
>>
>> If so, the Android operating system was updated yesterday (most likely).
>> *And today too.*
>>
>> And your Android operating system will (most likely) be updated tomorrow.
>> And the day after that.
>>
>> *Forever.*
>
> You've been talking to ChatGPT again, haven't you?

Hi TheRealBev,

This is a conversation that has been said on this group a thousand times.
Will telling you a thousand and one times how Android updates really help?

*Let's hope so.*

But you gotta read the links about Project Mainline & Project Treble.
Otherwise you'll be as ignorant as the iKooks (none of whom are adults).

*Seriously.*

The updates are via project mainline and project treble which for some
reason we've talked about for years on this newsgroup - ever since Android
10 - and yet - some on this newsgroup are seemingly incapable of learning
about it.

I can't teach you want you don't want to learn - which is that Android
updates in asynchronous layers - forever - with updates every single day.

It all happens under the covers - over the Internet - via what we'll call
the Google Play Store mechanism (but it's really a module inside of it).

>> If you don't believe me, read any link showing up in this search.
>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?va=n&hps=1&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+treble>
>
> Didn't seem to discuss anything beyond A11. I would assume that
> 'forever' means that if you have 10 or 11 you can also have 12, 13, 14...

Oh my. Where do we start with you when you say stuff like that.

First off, the only significance of Android 10 is that's when Project
Mainline and Project Treble kicked off. There's no other meaning to it.

If you have a phone that is at least Android 10, then it's being updated
every single day via the Google Play Store mechanism - over the Internet.

I don't feel like looking up the number of Android modules but it's up to
something like 34 now and it started with something like a dozen then.

So 34 extremely important layers in Android (aka packages) are updated
every single day for billions of Android phones that are on Android 13.

For Android 10, it's something like a dozen of those modules only.

The point is that Android, like a modern operating system should,
updates itself every single day in layers - where those updates have no EOL
date and where they're all donated to the AOSP so even if they did finally
stop (which they never have yet), they'd still be supported via AOSP.

You don't notice it because it happens completely in the background.
And it happens forever [1].

By way of stark contrast, the primitive monolithic iOS operating system is
not only updated in a stone-age slab-like mechanism - but full support for
any Apple release INSTANTLY TURNS TO DUST the instant a new release comes
out. This means only iOS 17 is fully supported. Not iOS 16. Not 15. Not 14.

Only Apple has support so crappy they only fully support a single release.
(Hell, even Microsoft has better operating system support than does Apple.)
--
[1] Forever here meaning nobody - not me - not Andy Burns - not anyone, has
been able to find an EOL date for these updates (which happen every day).

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-09-28 01:20, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> I update all my computers. Phones no, I can't.
>
> Carlos,
> Is your phone at least Android 10?
>
> If so, the Android operating system was updated yesterday (most likely).
> *And today too.*

No, it wasn't.

>
> And your Android operating system will (most likely) be updated tomorrow.
> And the day after that.
>

No, it won't.

> *Forever.*
>
> If you don't believe me, read any link showing up in this search.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?va=n&hps=1&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+treble>

No, because our updates come from Samsung, Motorola, etc, not Project
Mainline.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Frank Slootweg]

[Subject changed. Newsgroups snecked.]

Well, you might get updates from Project Mainline, but it's probably
not automatic and surely not "yesterday"/"today"/"tomorrow"/"the day
after that"/"*Forever.*" as 'Arlen' claims.

Because he keeps harping his nonsensical claims about this, I did some
searches and found - amongst others - this article:

'Android Project Mainline: Everything you need to know' (Dec 13, 2022)
<https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>

That says:

"The user receives a Google Play System Update (GPSU) message when a
Mainline module updates."

And you indeed get such messages, but normally only at the end of a
'Software update' from your *manufacturer* (*not* Google). At least
that's when I've seen such messages for my Samsung phone (now Android
13).

For example the (About phone ->) 'Software information' of my phone
says:

"Android version
13

Google Play system update
January 1, 2023
...
Security software version
...
SMR Jun-2023 Release 1

Android security patch level
June 1, 2023"

So, despite what 'Arlen' claims, I have no 'Google Play system update'
newer than January 1, 2023.

However, the article also says:

"Where to check for this system update on your phone?

We all enjoy using the knowledge we have gained. So, grab your phone
and lets see how this system upgrade performs in your phone.

Navigate to Settings > Security > Google Play system update.
...
There you can see the latest available update. Just click on download
and install. Within seconds, the latest update from Google will be
downloaded and installed. With this feature, you can improve the
devices stability easily and quickly."

And lo and behold, when I do that - via a somewhat different
navigation path (Security and privacy -> Updates ->) -, I see under
"Google Play system update" that there is an update! (Marked with a '!')

I did the download, the phone said it had to restart and after the
restart, that screen says:

"Google Play system update
August 1, 2023"

So I now indeed have a 'Google Play system update' from *Google*,
which is *newer* (August 1, 2023) than my 'Software update' from
*Samsung* (June 1, 2023).

The question is: Why didn't I get notified of this 'Google Play system
update'?

Perhaps this is because I haven't enabled any automatic downloading
or/and updating, not in the Play Store and not in (Samsung) 'Software
update'. But I *do* get notifications for (Samsung) 'Software update's,
so why not for 'Google Play system update's?

Maybe it's a setting in the Play Store app, but if it is, 'Arlen''s
story is even more doubtful, because he always claims he steers well
from the Play Store (or anything Google).

So it would be interesting to hear from others, if they get any
'Google Play system update's outside the software update cycle of
their manufacturer and if so, how they get notified of these updates.

N.B. Of course we're mostly interested in responses from users of
non-Pixel phones.

Carlos, can you try this on your phone and see if there is a 'hidden'
'Google Play system update', like there was on mine (or that it says
that it's up to date ('V'))?

[AJL]

On 9/29/2023 8:07 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> So it would be interesting to hear from others, if they get any
> 'Google Play system update's outside the software update cycle of
> their manufacturer and if so, how they get notified of these
> updates.

At your request I went and looked. It said my Google Play was at May 1.
But it had a button that said push to restart. I pushed and viola I'm
now at Aug 1. Apparently it automatically installed the update but
failed to tell me to restart. Weird. Thanks, I'll keep a closer eye in
the future...

> N.B. Of course we're mostly interested in responses from users of
> non-Pixel phones.

It's a Samsung Galaxy S10+.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> No, because our updates come from Samsung, Motorola, etc, not Project
> Mainline.

Hi Carlos,

Sigh. You and the iKooks have the same thing in common... but...

I'm going to give up after this post because you can't learn anything.
I'll only ask you to ponder the answer to these questions, Carlos.

Please don't strain yourself trying to answer them.
Because it's clear you have no idea what the answer is anyway.

You'll simply sputter... "Bbbbbbbbuuuuttttt..." which helps nobody.

Q: Where do your Android Qualcomm hardware driver updates come from Carlos?
Hint: Qualcomm (via Project Treble).

Q: Where do your key app updates come from Carlos (such as Chrome)?
HINT: Google Play Store & individual app settings.

Q: Where do your 34 system package updates come from Carlos?
HINT: (See Frank Slootweg's Project Mainline thread renaming the topic.)

In other words, Carlos, Android is updated by a variety of mechanisms.
Just like Windows and Linux are updated by a variety of mechanisms.

Q: Where do the Nvidia driver updates come from Carlos?
HINT: Nvidia.

All modern well-designed operating systems update in layers, Carlos.

You only seem to know of 1 of the many Android update mechanisms.
And that's fine.

You don't have to understand how Android updates.
You don't need to understand how Android updates.

It's perfectly fine for you to be completely ignorant, in fact.
But just stop saying ignorant things like you just said above.

Even Frank will disagree with you.
And that's saying something.

Android updates via a _variety_ of layers.
Only one of those layers requires the OEM to be directly involved.
--
Note in the case of iOS, all the layers require the OEM to be involved
directly which is a critical difference between iOS & all other OS's.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-27 22:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>>
>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>
>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>
>
> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
> develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
> developed, instead of the other way around.

How does that address the question I asked?

Do you have a citation for the assertion that "Most of Android is
updated forever"?

There are only two possible answers:

Yes, or...

...no.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-09-28 01:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>>
>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>
>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>
>
> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
> develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
> developed, instead of the other way around.

Big difference between apps being updated and OS' being updated by "the
people". That just doesn't happen for mainline distributions of OS'.

[Alan]

On 2023-09-29 09:15, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> No, because our updates come from Samsung, Motorola, etc, not Project
>> Mainline.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Sigh. You and the iKooks have the same thing in common... but...
>
> I'm going to give up after this post because you can't learn anything.
> I'll only ask you to ponder the answer to these questions, Carlos.
>
> Please don't strain yourself trying to answer them.
> Because it's clear you have no idea what the answer is anyway.
>
> You'll simply sputter... "Bbbbbbbbuuuuttttt..." which helps nobody.
>
> Q: Where do your Android Qualcomm hardware driver updates come from Carlos?
> Hint: Qualcomm (via Project Treble).

<https://www.google.com/search?q=qualcomm+project+treble&client=safari&sca_esv=569475139&rls=en&sxsrf=AM9HkKnCPYxWRwiQDRiXxBG8XHBd3g_s4A%3A1696006616460&ei=2AEXZbrTG47A0PEP4LOM0AU&ved=0ahUKEwi6n6T_pNCBAxUOIDQIHeAZA1oQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=qualcomm+project+treble&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiF3F1YWxjb21tIHByb2plY3QgdHJlYmxlMgQQIxgnMgQQIxgnSN8JUIgEWIgEcAJ4AZABAJgBS6ABS6oBATG4AQPIAQD4AQHCAgoQABhHGNYEGLAD4gMEGAAgQYgGAZAGCA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1>

Can you a single reference newer than 2020?

Hmmmm... ...could it be that you just don't know that "Project Treble"
no longer exists?

> Q: Where do your 34 system package updates come from Carlos?
> HINT: (See Frank Slootweg's Project Mainline thread renaming the topic.)

Indeed. Here's what I found (that you very apparently had no clue about):

'To understand more about Project Mainline, let’s briefly review about
its predecessor “Project Treble”.'

<https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>

[Alan]

That doesn't address the issue.

YOU updating all your computer is irrelevant to the issue of whether or
not it's reasonable to expect OS developers to support every OS they've
made...

...forever.

[Alan Browne]

I personally believe 7 years to be the minimum acceptable as OS' develop
at a pace with hardware.
While I'm quite happy to drag a computer along to 10+ years, I don't
expect the OS to be maintained as long for this h/w.

My SO's iPhone 7 got a security update in September - that's a 7 year
old phone and the iOS stopped getting general updates a little over 2
years ago. Not bad.

[Frank Slootweg]

Thanks for the confirmation. BTW, mine is a Samsung Galaxy A51, a
little over 3 years old, came with Android 10, now on 13.

So the strange things are that 1) we (YTIW! :-)) didn't get notified
that there was a 'Google Play system update', 2) my phone didn't
download it and 3) your phone downloaded it, but didn't tell you to
restart.

[Wally J]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> So I now indeed have a 'Google Play system update' from *Google*,
> which is *newer* (August 1, 2023) than my 'Software update' from
> *Samsung* (June 1, 2023).

It's great that Frank just tested his own Samsung to agree that
(unlike iOS) Android updates in asynchronous layers (some of which
are performed over the Internet) which are completely independent
of the carrier & OEM (unlike iOS which uses a primitive update model).

We've been discussing these Android asynchronous updates for years, Frank.
*Android endlessly updates directly from Google Play Services (bypassing carriers & OEMs)*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/1lSF1ZPdpZs/m/9FF0PCIHAgAJ>

In fact, you're bringing up the _same_ methods we've already covered.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/>

Still... your quest is valid - which is to figure out the update frequency.
*Which is a good thing.*
Knowledge is valuable.

In the past, for example, we tried to figure out the update EOL.
*Starting with Android 10, 11 or 12, what part of Android is NOT updated forever?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Tp_BYlwPFX8/m/L4no3D0HAgAJ>

But we were stymied by the lack of concrete information from Google.
*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/>

Hence I agree with your empirical method of finding out the answer.
It's useful to know how frequently Project Mainline updates Androids.

*Help me understand Google's Project Treble & Project Mainline please*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/e3VoHKwm-dY/>

The fact is that Android is updated in layers, with "Project Mainline"
(since renamed) starting in Android 10 being just one of those key layers.

Other layers are the key "Google apps" which is also part of stock Android.
*Google Play update all apps*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/48Qs2nHV5Io/>

But this thread is only about the one layer called "Project Mainline".
And it's about the update frequency of that one layer, right Frank?

Currently there are 34 core modules (aka Android system packages) in
"Project Mainline" (see also "Project Treble" for the hardware drivers)
which are updated over the net asynchronously from the OEM or the carrier.

Please see also the following threads containing useful information.

*Project Mainline updates all Android phones - no matter who makes it*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fSUeOc4jBxQ/>

*Why I believe the Android version doesn't matter as much anymore*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/gzG52aKOloA/>

*The longest hardware & software & warranty support in the industry*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/tFVO52Oc5kM/>

*All common consumer operating systems update in asynchronous layers*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/pmthHKhYSIg/>

*Why is Windows & Android & Linux supported far longer than Apple releases are?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/I_kbln7ETpE/>

*What is the most important update difference between iOS & Android?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/nH3w_-S606s/>

*What is the SIZE difference between iOS & Android updates?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fpIACZI6RCc/>
--
Frank's quest to figure out the Project Mainline update frequency
is a valid quest which I will watch to learn whatever Frank can find
as I learn from every single thread and post to this newsgroup too.

[Wally J]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> So I now indeed have a 'Google Play system update' from *Google*,
> which is *newer* (August 1, 2023) than my 'Software update' from
> *Samsung* (June 1, 2023).