WhatsApp and Comminicating Outside the U.S.

[Boris]

I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
business.

I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
but still costs.

One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

TIA

[nospam]

In article <XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252>, Boris

<Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.

yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.

> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

it is true.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
*contents* of your messages remain private.

[Boris]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:040220222042498014%nos...@nospam.invalid:

> In article <XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252>, Boris
> <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others
>> outside of the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and
>> England. I'd like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is
>> for personal use, not business.
>>
>> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is
>> cheaper, but still costs.
>
> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

voice when international

>
>> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was
>> reading about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal
>> information with Facebook for advertising purposes, even with
>> non-business accounts.
>
> that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.
>
>> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one
>> have to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
>
> a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
> will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.
>
>> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with
>> Facebook?
>
> it is true.
>
>> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats),
>> free?
>
> using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
> monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
> *contents* of your messages remain private.
>

What I thought.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 20:42:49 -0500, nospam wrote:

> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

Mine is T-Mobile which supposedly charges 20 cents per minute to/from the
USA from/to Europe (Germany, in my case); but in reality, they don't seem to
charge anything across the pond when I call my family who is on the same
family plan.

They _say_ they will charge 20 cents a minute even if both lines are on my
family plan, but from my experience, they don't charge anything.

> that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.

Nonetheless, all the WhatApp calls to the younger relatives in Europe are
free, while the older ones (on POTS lines) require Ooma which is somewhere
around 2 cents per minute or so (I don't check such things anymore).

> a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
> will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.

I don't even have contacts where I authored a thread, somewhere, that all
you need is the account and, with tricks, you can dial anyone anywhere.

We can dig it up if micky (aka Boris) needs that information.
(This micky has more aliases than Rod Speed, but you know that already.)

>> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?
>
> it is true.

There was a flap about some of that but didn't WhatsApp back down?
(We could dig it up but I wouldn't take anything nospam says as correct.)

>> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?
>
> using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
> monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
> *contents* of your messages remain private.

That's why I make sure WhatsApp has _zero_ contacts.

All WhatsApp gets to know is just enough information to contact me when the
phone rings... and just enough information to contact the few people in
Europe that I call - where _none_ of them are in my contacts (and never will
be because I don't even have a contacts sqlite database for privacy
reasons).

Hope this bit of added detail helps the OP micky.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.22 um 02:24 schrieb Boris:

> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp.

If you want to chat with people WhatsApp has the highest penetration
among mobile-users in Europe and it is platform-independent.

You can use them like any other messenger in the US. You can even use
them to make phone calls as long as the other side uses WhatsApp too.

Signal and Telegram are also popular and can be used like WhatsApp.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.22 um 02:42 schrieb nospam:

> In article <XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252>, Boris
> <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
>> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
>> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
>> business.
>>
>> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
>> but still costs.
>
> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

That is normal for overseas calls and roaming calls abroad. Flat
arrangements are probably less available and less popular than in Europe
where countries are much smaller. And within the EU calls are domestic
anyway as well as data usage.

In most cases ist is considerably cheaper to use VOIP with WhatsApp or
FaceTime or other clients.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-05 02:24, Boris wrote:
> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.
>
> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

True, Whatsapp is owned by Facebook.

>
> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No, not needed. Facebook probably has a shadow account on you, but they
may have or not an association between your name and your mobile phone
number.

For example, I have a Facebook account on the computer, but I keep my
phone number out of my profile. So far, they haven't figured it out.
Also, I am careful not to have the Facebook app installed in the phone.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Possibly. In Europe that is touchy, they can't, legally. I'm unsure of
the current situation in the USA.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Everything is "gratis". Free as in freedom, no.

The advantage of WhatsApp is that its market penetration here is huge.
In Spain, where I live, you can assume that every body has "wasap". I
have other apps, but none of the people I know use it, even when I know
they also have other apps (in some apps, you see the other contacts as
listed).

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Frank Slootweg]

Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.

WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.

> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
not use and never have used WhatsApp.

In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.

Guess what? They don't!

The only information they have is:

1. *A* 'name'.
Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
doesn't have to be.

2. *A* mobile number.
Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
used for WhatsApp.
It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
use.

3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
your normal/usual e-mail address.

Any normal user will probably use their real name and normal mobile
number, because there's no reason for the fear-mongering/FUD. I do, all
my contacts do and all other WhatsApp users I know do.

> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No. I also have no Facebook account.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Some people claim that WhatsApp users have 'shadow' Facebook accounts,
but if such an animal exists, it can only happen if you have provided
information which enables Facebook to create such an account, which
isn't the case for a normal WhatsApp account.

Of course if you *have* created a Facebook account with the same
information as your WhatApp account, Facebook could link the two
together, but if you haven't, they can't.

Bottom line: *If* there is such a thing as a 'shadow' Facebook
account, *you* can't use it - because you lack the needed login
information - and *they* can't, because there's no information for them
to (a)buse. Not real useful, is it!?

FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Yes.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-06 20:26, Frank Slootweg wrote:

...

> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

Same here.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 06.02.22 um 22:15 schrieb Carlos E.R.:

Good for both of you.

[nospam]

In article <stpau1...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?
>
> Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
> information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
> not use and never have used WhatsApp.

very much false. such claims come from people who are deeply familiar
with the various ways that people can be tracked online, and it's not
just facebook/whatsapp that's doing it either.

> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
>
> Guess what? They don't!

your guess is wrong. they very definitely do. that's how they make
money.

> The only information they have is:

the three you list below are only a tiny portion of what they have.

> 1. *A* 'name'.
> Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
> doesn't have to be.

it can be a fake name, but that doesn't actually matter.

> 2. *A* mobile number.
> Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
> potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
> Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
> used for WhatsApp.
> It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
> use.

the phone number provided *is* an identifier and is used to track what
you do.

a name/address can easily be obtained via a reverse lookup from various
sources.

additional information can be obtained if the number is used elsewhere,
such as a site where you bought something (with a real name, address &
payment info) and people you message who have that number in their
contacts.

> 3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
> Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
> Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
> your normal/usual e-mail address.

an email address is additional data that can be used to track people,
and if it's used elsewhere, which it almost certainly is, then
additional information can be obtained from those services.

in addition to the above, facebook also knows a lot more, including
device info, location data, ip addresses, message metadata (but not
contents) and more, all of which can easily be cross-linked to data
obtained elsewhere, forming a fairly detailed profile.

they also know who your cell provider is and can *easily* obtain a
name, address and other information. cell carriers hand that info out
almost like candy.

they know many of the *other* apps you use on the mobile device because
those other apps link the facebook sdk and/or use the same ip address
and/or location data.

they know what you do on other devices via websites with facebook
tracking pixels and/or uses facebook authentication to log in. now they
know about your browsing habits, plus cross-site cookies can link to
quite a bit more. although not common, some desktop apps link to a
facebook sdk.

> Some people claim that WhatsApp users have 'shadow' Facebook accounts,
> but if such an animal exists, it can only happen if you have provided
> information which enables Facebook to create such an account, which
> isn't the case for a normal WhatsApp account.

that is very much false.

shadow accounts definitely exist.

mark zuckerberg admitted that when testifying to congress, although he
was highly deceptive about what they're used for.

facebook will automatically create a shadow account any time an actual
account does not exist, potentially to be merged with a real account if
it's determined that they're the same person, which is not difficult.

> Of course if you *have* created a Facebook account with the same
> information as your WhatApp account, Facebook could link the two
> together, but if you haven't, they can't.

oh yes they very much can, and do.

the more they know, the more money they can make selling ads against
the data.

[Andy Burnelli]

On 6 Feb 2022 19:26:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
> or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.

While I'm sure that's perfectly correct, I remember, somewhere, in the past
perhaps, that T-Mobile told me they count calls done over Wi-Fi (using Wi-Fi
calling though, and not a third party VOIP app per se) as chargeable phone
calls.

Now I don't get charged for any calls so I don't delve into it, but is that
memory of mine correct that they "can" charge for Wi-Fi calls done between
your router and your phone and then onto the Internet through a T-Mobile
phone?

> Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
> information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
> not use and never have used WhatsApp.

I don't know what they collect, but if you allow access to your contacts,
which is hard not to (ask me how I know), then they have at least that.

Plus all the contacts of the people you communicate with.

> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.

Don't most people give them the entirety of what is in their contacts?

>
> Guess what? They don't!
>
> The only information they have is:
>
> 1. *A* 'name'.
> Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
> doesn't have to be.
>
> 2. *A* mobile number.
> Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
> potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
> Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
> used for WhatsApp.
> It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
> use.
>
> 3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
> Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
> Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
> your normal/usual e-mail address.
>
> Any normal user will probably use their real name and normal mobile
> number, because there's no reason for the fear-mongering/FUD. I do, all
> my contacts do and all other WhatsApp users I know do.

I need to try to re-install Whatsapp to see if it will take a completely
fake set of credentials WITHOUT asking for a verification pingback.

Does it?

>> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
>> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
>
> No. I also have no Facebook account.

Did you see their plummeting sales figures recently?

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-06 23:55, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2022 19:26:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
>> or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.
>
> While I'm sure that's perfectly correct, I remember, somewhere, in the past
> perhaps, that T-Mobile told me they count calls done over Wi-Fi (using Wi-Fi
> calling though, and not a third party VOIP app per se) as chargeable phone
> calls.
>
> Now I don't get charged for any calls so I don't delve into it, but is that
> memory of mine correct that they "can" charge for Wi-Fi calls done between
> your router and your phone and then onto the Internet through a T-Mobile
> phone?

Because you are using the official phone calling tool that tells the
provider that you are doing a phone call. If you use any other app, such
as whatsapp, to do the call, they can't charge for it.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 01:53:19 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Because you are using the official phone calling tool that tells the
> provider that you are doing a phone call. If you use any other app, such
> as whatsapp, to do the call, they can't charge for it.

Thank you Carlos, first for being an adult in your response (hence, I will
return the favor, as I always do), and secondly for answering the question.

In essence, we can summarize for the OP that it's not so much the Wi-Fi that
keeps the call free with WhatsApp (becuase T-Mobile _can_ charge for a Wi-Fi
call), but the VOIP app itself (which also uses Wi-Fi).

Both use Wi-Fi.
Both use the Internet.
But one uses the "phone app" while the other uses a "whatsapp" app.

Thanks where I love to learn on Usenet given Usenet is a team sport.

[Theo]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
>
> Guess what? They don't!
>
> The only information they have is:

They also have access to:

4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
without contacts access. On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
names.

It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
to:
https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
(they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
barring access to contacts at OS level)

5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
important to you.

> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:

<quote>
In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
</quote>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features

You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Theo

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.22 um 02:24 schrieb Boris:

> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Yes.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Yes. No cash out but you will pay. Sooner or later.

> TIA

Your welcome.

[Frank Slootweg]

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> > WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
> >
> > Guess what? They don't!
> >
> > The only information they have is:
>
> They also have access to:
>
> 4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
> without contacts access.

Not that it matters - see below -, but I can run WhatsApp without the
Contacts permission. It of course is needed if you want to 'import' from
or 'export' to your phone contacts

> On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
> access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
> names.
>
> It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
> to:
> https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
> (they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
> barring access to contacts at OS level)

Nope. Not "Your contacts.", but your *WhatsApp* contacts. Duh!

See the "More information about contact upload for people who do not
use WhatsApp can be found here." in your reference.

N.B. My WhatsApp account info (access.html) indeed shows my WhatsApp
contacts (by phone number), but no others.

> 5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
> they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
> important to you.

The point is whether they share that data with Facebook/rest-of-Meta.

> > FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> > WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> > WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
>
> They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
> the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:

Yes, I'm in the EU, GDPR and all that. For the European Region,
WhatsApp's EEA (European Economic Area) Privacy Policy applies:

<https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy-eea>

While browsing, I'm quite sure I saw a part where it says that in the
European Region, WhatsApp does *not* (yet) share data with other Meta
companies. But I can no longer find it. Bummer! :-(

> <quote>
> In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
> states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
> Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
> Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
> longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
> order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
> see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
> allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
> has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
> number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
> </quote>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features
>
> You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Of course, but my comments for Boris' WhatsApp-only scenario are that
WhatsApp/Facebook cannot 'monetize' data which they *do not have*.

Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!

[Andy Burnelli]

On 07 Feb 2022 10:27:04 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

> They also have access to:
>
> 4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
> without contacts access. On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
> access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
> names.
>
> It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
> to:
> https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
> (they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
> barring access to contacts at OS level)

Theo is purposefully helpfully bringing up an important point that _many_
apps surreptitiously or overtly automatically steal your contacts, which,
let's be clear, contain very private information about your friends, family
and neighbors that they have no business knowing.

Theo kind-hearted detailed reply didn't mention it, but if you're
intelligent, you can _easily_ prevent WhatsApp (or any application) from
uploading your contacts, but the sad fact is that most people are stupid.

So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your ignorant
friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_ private contact
information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is the real problem).

You can't control the fact that most people are utter morons (they do
_exactly_ what WhatsApp MARKETING wants them to do, they're _that_ stupid);
but what you can do is prevent WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, which
I did long ago and wrote a tutorial on how you can do it too.

> 5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
> they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
> important to you.

Yup. Whom you talk to and who talks to you is data they can save, but I
don't know of any way to prevent this with WhatsApp because I haven't
looked.

With Google Voice, for example, you can "reset" the tracking number; but I
don't know how much of what Google Voice tracks is reset by that action.

Checking on iOS 13.5 iPad where Google deeply _hides_ that reset button!

For example, Google Voice doesn't hide the "remove call history" button:
Voice > Hamburger > Settings > Remove call history > Remove > Understand > Remove

But _look_ where Google Voice hid the "Google usage ID" reset button!
Voice > Hamburger > Settings > (scroll almost to the bottom)
Default apps > (again, scroll almost to the bottom)
Google usage ID > Rest Google usage ID > Yes, reset

Note this has _nothing_ to do with "Default apps", so I suspect Google, as
always, has purposefully _hidden_ this important personal privacy control.

On Android you can often make a one-tap homescreen shortcut to the page;
but I tested this only on my iPad (as GV isn't on Android for other reasons)
where I think that iOS is crippled in lack of ability to create that
shortcut. (If iOS isn't crippled, I'm sure the iKooks will set me straight.)

BTW, the _reason_ I don't have GV on my Android is just as bad though, since
the Google Voice app _insists_ on _creating_ an account on the Android
phone, whereas I don't have _any_ account on my Android phone.

The iOS iPads are _already_ fatally flawed in that you _must_ have a
mothership account on them (there's no way around it if you want that iPad
to access the Apple App Store), so that's why Google Voice is only on my
iPads and not on my Android phone.

>> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
>> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
>> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
>
> They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
> the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:
>
> <quote>
> In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
> states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
> Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
> Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
> longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
> order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
> see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
> allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
> has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
> number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
> </quote>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features
>
> You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Theo,

Didn't WhatsApp retract that policy after the instant privacy uproar?

[sms]

On 2/7/2022 7:35 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
> a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!

Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

I don't think that there's any more of an issue with WhatsApp having
access to your contacts so it can determine who has a WhatsApp account
than it is to have iMessage do the same thing.

Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.

[nospam]

In article <strrq6$kut$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
> > a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!
>
> Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
> Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

facebook will link them together.

> I don't think that there's any more of an issue with WhatsApp having
> access to your contacts so it can determine who has a WhatsApp account
> than it is to have iMessage do the same thing.

there's a *huge* difference because the two companies have completely
different business models and corporate philosophies, and also imessage
doesn't upload contacts.

> Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.

that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
doesn't do.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:

> there's a *huge* difference because the two companies have completely
> different business models and corporate philosophies, and also imessage
> doesn't upload contacts.

I wonder if nospam is telling us a little fib here given he mentioned
"the two companies"

Is nospam claiming _Apple_ doesn't ever upload contacts to the iCloud?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 11:27:02 -0800, sms wrote:

> Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
> Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

I'll leave it as an open question how "different" those "credentials" are if
the phone is the same and if the mothership accounts and Ad Id's and other
common features are the same...

[Andy Burnelli]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:

> that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
> flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
> doesn't do.

Published today...

*We're Fine Without Facebook, German and French Ministers Say*
�<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/we-re-fine-without-facebook-german-and-french-ministers-say>

"The pair were responding to comments in Meta's annual report published
Thursday, warning that if it couldn't rely on new or existing agreements
to shift data, then it would "likely be unable to offer a number of our
most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram,
in Europe.

[nospam]

In article <stsa6b$1hb$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
> > that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
> > flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
> > doesn't do.
>
> Published today...
>
> *We're Fine Without Facebook, German and French Ministers Say*

as usual, you snipped to alter context.

what i wrote was in reference to the ludicrous and completely baseless
claim that apple adopting rcs would have an affect on whatsapp and
other messaging platforms. it will not.

what you reference above has absolutely nothing to do with that.

In article <070220221438266127%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam

<nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.
>

[Andy Burnelli]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 18:46:27 -0500, nospam wrote:

> what i wrote was in reference to the ludicrous and completely baseless
> claim that apple adopting rcs would have an affect on whatsapp and
> other messaging platforms. it will not.

Fair enough. I wasn't responding to the RCS content but it may have looked
like that to you even as I was responding to the part about Europe rules for
privacy that affect Facebook & Whatsapp.

To your point...

Google is acting like a whiny baby saying Apple is "bullying" Android
owners, where what's really happening is that RCS isn't taking off as fast
as Google would like it to have done so they can't catch up to iMessage
features that people seem to like (AFAICT).

Meanwhile, Apple said in the Epic deposition that iMessage is one of the few
locks they have on style-conscious kids (whose parents buy them their
iPhones).

Apple isn't worried about Google, as you noted (IMHO).
And Google isn't going to get anywhere whining about RCS not having traction
--
BTW, stop saying I snip to alter content since I snip following the USENET
recommendations for only quoting what you're responding to (you should too).

[Boris]

Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:stro64$1q5h$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

> On 07 Feb 2022 10:27:04 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:
>
>> They also have access to:
>>
>> 4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to
>> run without contacts access. On iOS Apple says it has to run even if
>> contacts access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers
>> instead of names.
>>
>> It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone
>> you talk to:
>> https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=e
>> n (they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an
>> opt-out, beyond barring access to contacts at OS level)
>
> Theo is purposefully helpfully bringing up an important point that
> _many_ apps surreptitiously or overtly automatically steal your
> contacts, which, let's be clear, contain very private information
> about your friends, family and neighbors that they have no business
> knowing.
>
> Theo kind-hearted detailed reply didn't mention it, but if you're
> intelligent, you can _easily_ prevent WhatsApp (or any application)
> from uploading your contacts, but the sad fact is that most people are
> stupid.

No,they are not stupid. The are ignorant. Most have no idea what they
are signing up for when they authorize permissions. And those that do
know that there's no free lunch, and that they are the product, find it
very difficult to understand what they are signing up for, let alone how
to disable certain 'features' of an app, as you have described, by hiding
settings.

>
> So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your
> ignorant friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_
> private contact information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is
> the real problem).

That's what concerns me, a user on the other end divulging my own contact
information. Before posting this article, I read as much as I could re:
WhatsApp, and after reading all of the (sometimes conflicting) replies, I
wonder what would be the unwanted result (by product) of using WhatsApp.
What will I have to 'pay'?

I've looked at Telegram and Signal, but the people I want to contact are
in Germany and England, and use WhatsApp. I've been communicating with
them via email thus far.

>
> You can't control the fact that most people are utter morons (they do
> _exactly_ what WhatsApp MARKETING wants them to do, they're _that_
> stupid); but what you can do is prevent WhatsApp from uploading your
> contacts, which I did long ago and wrote a tutorial on how you can do
> it too.

Tutorial, please.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 02:57:16 -0000 (UTC), Boris wrote:

> No,they are not stupid. The are ignorant.

Take a look at this screenshot from one of my WhatsApp privacy tutorials:
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

Notice there are ways that _intelligent_ people can avoid giving WhatsApp
contacts, and the fact these ways already exist means there are other
intelligent people out there.

Everyone is ignorant of those ways at first as they're not intuitive.
Ignorance can be cured; but stupidity cannot.

There is a distinction between ignorance and stupidity, much as there's a
distinction between acute and chronic disease in that ignorance, if left
chronic, is a hallmark of stupidity (aka, low IQ).

Take Alan Baker for example, whose IQ is about 40 in my estimate, who
claimed for weeks that the useragent was impossible to forge, even after
being shown multiple forged useragent headers, some of which were "This i
forged" type proofs... and yet... he refused to acknowledge the facts.

Take Snit who _still_ thinks he finally found an iOS app that does what I
said years ago iOS couldn't do (and _still_ can't do), for WiFi debugging.
<https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo>

Taken _anything_ that Jolly Roger says (IQ about 50) or Lewis (IQ ~60).

While I agree with you that ignorance isn't stupidity in and of itself,
chronic stupidity is a result of incurable ignorance that they all have.

> Most have no idea what they
> are signing up for when they authorize permissions.

Agreed.

Again, look at this screenshot & notice the apps I used to protect contacts.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

Those apps did _not_ come from WhatsApp, and neither did the redacted
shortcut, which is a shortcut to contact the person in Europe on WhatsApp
(who in this case was from the USA traveling in Germany at that time).

The MARKETING of the apps and the motherships make it _easy_ for them to
sign away all their contacts (which, I must remind everyone, contains not
only your private information, but that of your own family & kids).

It's not easy to NOT give them your contacts (ask me how I know this).

> And those that do
> know that there's no free lunch, and that they are the product, find it
> very difficult to understand what they are signing up for, let alone how
> to disable certain 'features' of an app, as you have described, by hiding
> settings.

It's possible to protect contacts, but it takes a few additional tools
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

I had a close relative ask me why I don't have contacts on my phone when I
mentioned it to her, and when I told her, she said "they already have your
privacy", which is a defeatist attitude that lots of people have.

I don't have that defeatist attitude but they take the easy way out.
It's much like surrender is easier than fighting.

I agree with you that _not_ having contacts, is harder than having them.
Likewise with _not_ having any Mothership account on any of my devices.
<https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account

My _only_ devices with a mothership account are iOS devices, and even those
I never log into (but they _force_ a login in order to remain functional).
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple _forces_ a log in!

Only Apple does this. Nobody else on Windows 10, Linux, or Android forces
you to have a mothership account so that they can track whatever you do.

>> So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your
>> ignorant friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_
>> private contact information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is
>> the real problem).
>
> That's what concerns me, a user on the other end divulging my own contact
> information. Before posting this article, I read as much as I could re:
> WhatsApp, and after reading all of the (sometimes conflicting) replies, I
> wonder what would be the unwanted result (by product) of using WhatsApp.

On all my devices, there are no contacts. I choose apps by their ability to
keep a private database of contacts (e.g., Simple Mobile Tools), but when
we're talking WhatsApp, we lose the choice of picking the main VOIP tool.

Yet, it certainly is possible to use WhatsApp without contacts.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

I wrote a tutorial a while ago when I needed WhatsApp to talk to folks in
Germany from the USA who used it, and I created a bogus account and we
communicated using it.

The problem I had was that it _forced_ contacts in order to be functional,
but there were those _existing_ workarounds put out by third parties that
allowed you to connect to people directly without them being in the
contacts.

> What will I have to 'pay'?
>
> I've looked at Telegram and Signal, but the people I want to contact are
> in Germany and England, and use WhatsApp. I've been communicating with
> them via email thus far.

You can use what I used, where that was two phones ago, so I haven't
re-installed the apps but what you see circled in this screenshot is:
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>
a. A shortcut to connect to the one person via WhatsApp
b. WA Dialer (for phone calls)
c. Click to chat (for messages)
d. WhatsApp (with zero contacts)

As I said, on Android, you have to be intelligent to have privacy.
On iOS, you're lost even if you're intelligent because iOS is crippled.

But iOS "might" have a dialer and a chat and the ability to create a
homescreen icon to connect to people _without_ having WhatsApp contacts.

If it does, I'm sure the iKooks will complain soonly enough.

>> You can't control the fact that most people are utter morons (they do
>> _exactly_ what WhatsApp MARKETING wants them to do, they're _that_
>> stupid); but what you can do is prevent WhatsApp from uploading your
>> contacts, which I did long ago and wrote a tutorial on how you can do
>> it too.
>
> Tutorial, please.

Darn. Now I have to look it up.
What I'll do, is run a image search since I have the image in my records.
Here's what that reverse image search found for you.

I recently installed the Whatsapp app on Android 11 in order to converse
with someone in Germany who is traveling from the USA and therefore she is
charged 25 cents a minute for every incoming and outgoing +1 or +49 mobile
phone call (when she is not on Wi-Fi or cellular data).

Initially, WhatsApp insisted on having access to my contacts, which, even
though they're empty (for exactly that reason!), I couldn't make a call
without adding this free ad free gsf free "click2chat" app from
Trianguloy.

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

With that "click to chat" app, I was able to create a shortcut link to the
phone number to make the call using WhatsApp without WhatsApp having any
access to my contacts (which, as I said, are empty anyway).

While I was looking for that solution to making a call on WhatsApp without
giving WhatsApp any access to anything but the phone & microphone,
I noticed there may be other solutions to making WhatsApp calls
without any contact.

For example, this is a WhatsApp dialer that will dial the number directly.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Unfortunately that Applaud Dialer for WhatsApp is GSF dependent, even as
it's at least free and ad free like most (if not almost all) my apps are.

Since I'm new to using WhatsApp, and since I care to NOT give it any
more of my data other than my phone number and the numbers I actually
call or direct message to, what other tricks do you use to maintain
your privacy while you use Whatsapp?

For example, do you know of a good free ad free direct phone dialer for
WhatsAppl like the one I found, but which is Google Services Framework
free?

In addition, people in Germany may pay for SMS/MMS messages, so I added
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>
Which is a free ad free GSF free WhatsApp direct messenger app.

Luckily, tricks I found work well - I was simply hoping to improve them.
1. I created a one-touch customized icon to contact the WhatsApp recipient
2. That brings them up in WhatsApp _without_ them being in my contacts
3. From there, I can press the WhatsApp messenger and/or dialer (or video)

Here's a screenshot I made which shows how easy these tricks make it
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

The goal now is to _improve_ upon those WhatsApp tricks to make it better!

Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Click to chat [small, no ads], TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 06:03:01 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 01:24:19 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid>

> wrote:
>
>>I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
>>the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
>>like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
>>business.
>>
>>I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
>>but still costs.
>>

>>One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
>>about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
>>Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.
>

> When WhatsApp was bought by Facebook many users switched to
> alternative messaging apps like Signal and Telegram, which claim to
> have more privacy.
>
> While WhatsApp doesn't (yet) act on the content of your messages, it
> may use other things like location -- if WhatsApp detects that you are
> are close to a liquor store, for example, Facebook may display liquor
> ads.

Bear in mind it's trivial to spoof your location with just your phone.
*Top 10 best fake location apps on 2020*
<https://www.virtuallocation.com/fake-location/fake-location-app.html>

No need to root or jailbreak.
And it's always freeware (which is important for privacy).

[nospam]

In article <stsumk$5be$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> > While WhatsApp doesn't (yet) act on the content of your messages, it
> > may use other things like location -- if WhatsApp detects that you are
> > are close to a liquor store, for example, Facebook may display liquor
> > ads.
>
> Bear in mind it's trivial to spoof your location with just your phone.

bear in mind that spoofing the gps will have no effect whatsoever when
apps aren't using gps to determine location.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 00:28:41 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> Bear in mind it's trivial to spoof your location with just your phone.
>
> bear in mind that spoofing the gps will have no effect whatsoever when
> apps aren't using gps to determine location.

Pray tell... ignoring that iOS is crippled... at least on _my_ Android
phone, how are those apps going to get that location?

Tell us, nospam. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Alan]

You really are quite ignorant...

...aren't you?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 08.02.22 um 05:03 schrieb Steve Hayes:

> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 01:24:19 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
>> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
>> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
>> business.
>>
>> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
>> but still costs.
>>
>> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
>> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
>> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.
>
> When WhatsApp was bought by Facebook many users switched to
> alternative messaging apps like Signal and Telegram, which claim to
> have more privacy.
>

> While WhatsApp doesn't (yet) act on the content of your messages, it
> may use other things like location -- if WhatsApp detects that you are
> are close to a liquor store, for example, Facebook may display liquor
> ads.

Much worse: WhatsApp can only reasonably used with access to contacts.
Once the user allows access to contacts they steal them without the
consent of the contacts involved. This breach of elementary privacy is
the reason why European companies do not allow WA on company phones
anymore. It is simply a breach of the DSGVO (EU privacy law in German).
That can have severe consequences.

WA/Facebook is in the position to misuse these contacts to send unwanted
ads and even do more bad things.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 06.02.22 um 22:15 schrieb Carlos E.R.:

[nospam]

In article <stt1bd$vkd$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> Bear in mind it's trivial to spoof your location with just your phone.
> >
> > bear in mind that spoofing the gps will have no effect whatsoever when
> > apps aren't using gps to determine location.
>
> Pray tell... ignoring that iOS is crippled... at least on _my_ Android
> phone, how are those apps going to get that location?

location can be determined in a variety of ways, including gps, wifi
geolocation, cellular, ip address, bluetooth beacons and a few other
methods for specific scenarios. which one(s) depend on various factors.

a messaging app is not going to power up the gps just to find out where
you are. it's a waste of power, the accuracy is not needed, and for
some devices, it's slow.

instead, it will use wifi geolocation, cellular and/or ip address.

the ip address could potentially be masked with a vpn, but the other
two cannot.

[nospam]

he does know how to take photos of 40 year old textbooks...

[sms]

On 2/7/2022 6:57 PM, Boris wrote:

<snip>

> I've looked at Telegram and Signal, but the people I want to contact are
> in Germany and England, and use WhatsApp. I've been communicating with
> them via email thus far.

You can prevent WhatsApp from using the contact information on your phone.

If you're concerned about someone that you're communicating with saving
your contact information and having it used nefariously by Meta you can
use a separate phone for WhatsApp, or use a Google Voice phone number
that isn't used for anything else except WhatsApp.

<https://www.wikihow.com/Use-WhatsApp-Without-a-Phone-Number>

It would be a royal pain to be in Europe or India without WhatsApp since
its use is nearly universal and it's pretty much the only messaging app
that most people there use. Fortunately, it's possible to use it while
maintaining (mostly) your privacy, it's just more work to use it that way.

What you really want to worry about is WeChat!

[nospam]

In article <stu02c$hjm$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> If you're concerned about someone that you're communicating with saving
> your contact information and having it used nefariously by Meta you can
> use a separate phone for WhatsApp, or use a Google Voice phone number
> that isn't used for anything else except WhatsApp.

that isn't anywhere near as effective as you might think.

facebook knows all the tricks and then some. you're not going to fool
them.

[Frank Slootweg]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 06.02.22 um 22:15 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> > On 2022-02-06 20:26, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> >> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> >> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
> >
> > Same here.
>
> Much worse: WhatsApp can only reasonably used with access to contacts.
> Once the user allows access to contacts they steal them without the
> consent of the contacts involved.

Nice rant! Bit of a bummer that WhatsApp specifically state that they
do *not* that:

'Information for people who don't use WhatsApp'
<https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/information-for-people-who-dont-use-whatsapp>

"....
We manage Non-user phone numbers in a way that is designed to prevent
Non-users from being identified by WhatsApp through creating a
cryptographic hash value from the Non-users phone numbers. We dont
store Non-users phone numbers, we only store these cryptographic hash
values.
...."

> This breach of elementary privacy is
> the reason why European companies do not allow WA on company phones
> anymore. It is simply a breach of the DSGVO (EU privacy law in German).
> That can have severe consequences.

More nonsense. You mean "... *some* European companies ...". And the
contacts (non-)issue isn't the reason.

> WA/Facebook is in the position to misuse these contacts to send unwanted
> ads and even do more bad things.

I'm sure the owner of the hashed number is severely annoyed by this.

BTW, for *WhatsApp* contacts, WhatsApp *can* indeed send unwanted ads,
but as we explained, WhatsApp *does not* send ads, let alone unwanted
ads.

"and even do more bad things"! The horror! I'm trembling in my wooden
shoes!

[Frank Slootweg]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
[...]

> While WhatsApp doesn't (yet) act on the content of your messages, it
> may use other things like location

By default, the Location permission is *off* for the WhatsApp app.

The only permissions are Camera, Contacts (can be turned off, as I
mentioned earlier) and Storage (media). (Probably all these permission
can be turned off if you do not use the related functionality.)

> -- if WhatsApp detects that you are
> are close to a liquor store, for example, Facebook may display liquor
> ads.

This thread is - or should be - a WhatsApp-only/no-Facebook context,
but *if* the user is a Facebook user, I'm sure Facebook doesn't need
WhatsApp's help to present an ad.

N.B. As I and Carlos have mentioned, we do *not* get ads, not inside
WhatsApp and not outside it.

[Frank Slootweg]

[Obvious troll group snecked.]

Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:stro64$1q5h$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

[...]

> > So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your
> > ignorant friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_
> > private contact information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is
> > the real problem).
>
> That's what concerns me, a user on the other end divulging my own contact
> information. Before posting this article, I read as much as I could re:
> WhatsApp, and after reading all of the (sometimes conflicting) replies, I
> wonder what would be the unwanted result (by product) of using WhatsApp.
> What will I have to 'pay'?

See my other response to Joerg Lorenz. WhatsApp does not store the
phone numbers of Non-users (people who do not use WhatsApp).

N.B. The page I pointed to ('Information for people who don't use
WhatsApp') is listed on this page:

'WhatsApp Legal'
<https://www.whatsapp.com/legal>

I'm sure lawyers would have a field day if WhatsApp violated its *own*
policy which is listed under the heading 'WhatsApp LEGAL' and on a
webpage with the URL <https://www.whatsapp.com/LEGAL> (emphasis mine).

[...]

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:04:21 +0100, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Much worse: WhatsApp can only reasonably used with access to contacts.

What Joerg says is untrue for an intelligent user but correct for idiots.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

> Once the user allows access to contacts they steal them without the
> consent of the contacts involved.

They can't steal contacts that don't exist in the sqlite database, Joerg.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:51:53 -0800, sms wrote:

> You can prevent WhatsApp from using the contact information on your phone.

To Boris' point about ignorance versus stupidity...

*Steve is ignorant* because Steve doesn't know anything about using WhatsApp.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

Steve isn't stupid. He's ignorant.
As Boris claimed, they're _different_ things.

Steve is unaware of what _everyone_ else is aware of (it's already in this thread).

> If you're concerned about someone that you're communicating with saving
> your contact information and having it used nefariously by Meta you can
> use a separate phone for WhatsApp, or use a Google Voice phone number
> that isn't used for anything else except WhatsApp.

While this "might" work, *Steve's ignorance is astounding*, in that in this
very thread we gave _far_ better solutions to preventing WhatsApp from having
your contacts than handing the contact directly to Google!

Who is _that_ ignorant, but Steve, that he can't even comprehend what is
_already_ well known (and in this very thread, even ).

*There's no excuse for Steve's incomprehensible ignorance.*
To Boris' point, Steve isn't stupid - he does have an EE degree for example.

But *Steve is ignorant* of information that is in this very thread already!

Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Click to chat [small, no ads], TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>

--
The more ignorant these people are, the more their advice is worthless.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 09:56:06 -0500, nospam wrote:

> that isn't anywhere near as effective as you might think.
>
> facebook knows all the tricks and then some. you're not going to fool
> them.

People like Steve who refuse to accept facts, are doomed to a life of ignorance.

These facts were posted, and yet, *Steve is incurably ignorant* of them.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

While nospam is correct that Steve's proposed solution is unworkable,
I think Steve's suggestions prove Boris' point about ignorance vs stupidity.

Steve isn't stupid (as evidenced by his EE degree, which is hard to get).
But to Boris' point, Steve is incredibly ignorant of WA contact solutions.

Why?
Why is Steve ignorant of solutions already posted in this very thread?

Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Click to chat [small, no ads], TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>

As Boris and I agree, ignorance is curable (but then what's Steve's problem?).
--
People like Steve who refuse to accept facts, are doomed to a life of ignorance.

[Andy Burnelli]

On 8 Feb 2022 16:21:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> WhatsApp does not store the
> phone numbers of Non-users (people who do not use WhatsApp).

I just saw this, and I was previously ignorant of the policy that Frank has
outlined (I never read it as I assumed WhatsApp kept all contacts).

I _still_ haven't read it, but from what Frank is intimating, WhatsApp might
suck up all your contacts, but apparently, from what Frank is intimating,
they "throw away" the ones who aren't on WhatsApp.

But that has to be done on the WhatsApp mother ship, right?
Or is it done on the phone?

Where does WhatsApp decide if a contact is _not_ a WhatsApp contact
a. On the phone?
b. At the mothership?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 02:18:04 -0500, nospam wrote:

>>> Tell us, nospam. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> You really are quite ignorant...
>>
>> ...aren't you?
>
> he does know how to take photos of 40 year old textbooks...

Notice how _childish_ responses are from iKooks to a simple adult question.

Every time nospam responds to Alan Baker I'm confronted with Alan's 40 IQ.
Alan added _zero_ value by simply backing up nospam's fabricated comments.

Then nospam, who clearly has no education whatsoever to speak of, belittles
those who do, but he's doing that to deflect and derail the question asked.

Given nospam claims:
"Bear in mind that *spoofing the gps will have no effect whatsoever*

when apps aren't using gps to determine location"

My _adult_ query of nospam is for him to back up that strongly held claim.

From" me
To: nospam:

How can they do that on _my_ Android phone, nospam?
(Not iOS, which is crippled mind you... but Android, which is not.)

How?
--
Notice how _childish_ responses are from iKooks to a simple adult question.

[nospam]

In article <stu8qp...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > > So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your
> > > ignorant friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_
> > > private contact information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is
> > > the real problem).
> >
> > That's what concerns me, a user on the other end divulging my own contact
> > information. Before posting this article, I read as much as I could re:
> > WhatsApp, and after reading all of the (sometimes conflicting) replies, I
> > wonder what would be the unwanted result (by product) of using WhatsApp.
> > What will I have to 'pay'?
>
> See my other response to Joerg Lorenz. WhatsApp does not store the
> phone numbers of Non-users (people who do not use WhatsApp).
>
> N.B. The page I pointed to ('Information for people who don't use
> WhatsApp') is listed on this page:
>
> 'WhatsApp Legal'
> <https://www.whatsapp.com/legal>

as is common with legal terms of service, it's sufficiently vague to
cover all sorts of stuff while allowing them to do what they want and
remain compliant with their stated terms.

their own privacy label lists a *lot* of stuff:
<https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/60432dd9b60609174
e5d7f69/WhatsApp-Vs-Rivals/960x0.jpg>

which is further detailed here:
<https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-notification/>
...But that doesn't mean there isn't still a trove of other data
WhatsApp can collect and share about how you use the app. The
company says it collects user information "to operate, provide,
improve, understand, customize, support, and market our Services.²

In practice, this means that WhatsApp shares a lot of intel with
Facebook, including account information like your phone number, logs
of how long and how often you use WhatsApp, information about how
you interact with other users, device identifiers, and other device
details like IP address, operating system, browser details, battery
health information, app version, mobile network, language and time
zone. Transaction and payment data, cookies, and location information
are also all fair game to share with Facebook depending on the
permissions you grant WhatsApp in the first place.

here is their official policy, with the facebook sharing quoted below.

note that 'help operate, improve, understand, customize, support and
market our services' is vague. a *lot* can meet that definition.

<https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/privacy-policy/>
As part of the Facebook Companies, WhatsApp receives information
from, and shares information (see here) with, the other Facebook
Companies. We may use the information we receive from them, and they
may use the information we share with them, to help operate, provide,
improve, understand, customize, support, and market our Services and
their offerings, including the Facebook Company Products. This
includes:

€ helping improve infrastructure and delivery systems;
€ understanding how our Services or theirs are used;
€ promoting safety, security and integrity across the Facebook
Company Products, e.g., securing systems and fighting spam,
threats, abuse, or infringement activities;
€ improving their services and your experiences using them, such
as making suggestions for you (for example, of friends or group
connections, or of interesting content), personalizing features and
content, helping you complete purchases and transactions, and
showing relevant offers and ads across the Facebook Company
Products; and
€ providing integrations which enable you to connect your WhatsApp
experiences with other Facebook Company Products. For example,
allowing you to connect your Facebook Pay account to pay for things
on WhatsApp or enabling you to chat with your friends on other
Facebook Company Products, such as Portal, by connecting your
WhatsApp account.

[nospam]

In article <stu795$u0e$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> People like Steve who refuse to accept facts, are doomed to a life of
> ignorance.

he can join you.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 02:18:02 -0500, nospam wrote:

> location can be determined in a variety of ways, including gps, wifi
> geolocation, cellular, ip address, bluetooth beacons and a few other
> methods for specific scenarios. which one(s) depend on various factors.

Absolutely. That is the case for all iOS owners and stupid Android owners.
But I was very clear that we're not talking about the crippled iOS phones.

We're talking about _my_ Android phone, which you're very well aware that:
a. GPS is easily spoofed
b. Wi-Fi is already set to _not_ report _any_ nearby access points
c. Cellular IP & triangulation is highly unlikely by apps
d. VPN is on (so the IP Address geolocation won't be accurate)
e. Bluetooth is always off (I just don't have a need for it)
f. And a few others (tell us, nospam, _what_ others?)

The only one that has even minor merit, nospam, (IMHO), is if an app
surreptitiously is triangulating cellular tower information (which I can't
spoof yet) which just isn't likely.

If anyone knows of cellular tower spoofing apps (much like the GPS spoofing
apps which abound on Android), let me know as we'll all benefit from that.

The problem is we don't benefit from these bullshitters like the iKooks are.

> a messaging app is not going to power up the gps just to find out where
> you are. it's a waste of power, the accuracy is not needed, and for
> some devices, it's slow.
>
> instead, it will use wifi geolocation, cellular and/or ip address.
>
> the ip address could potentially be masked with a vpn, but the other
> two cannot.

To always add value with every post, given Usenet is a team sport...
Adding value, I'm _always_ willing to learn of new Android privacy methods!

Especially since we _know_ stingray devices exist that are indiscriminate:
*Fighting unconstitutional stingray surveillance tracking innocent people*
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/2473483/fighting-unconstitutional-stingray-phone-surveillance-that-tracks-innocent-people.html>

To that end, I'm well aware of the fused location provider API, nospam.
*Fused.location*, by Jeff Layman (Jan 24, 2022)
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/n5U6mJHr6oM>

Be advised I'm not asking about the crippled iOS devices' lack of privacy.
But of the very capable Android devices (as there is no privacy on iOS).

To your credit, you bring up
a. wifi
b. cellular
c. IP address

You know how easy it is to change the IP address, so that leaves:
a. wifi
b. cellular

You know how easy (for Android) it is to _not_ upload wifi, so that leaves:
b. cellular
*Accuracy Characterization of Cell Tower Localization*
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221568410_Accuracy_Characterization_of_Cell_Tower_Localization>
"Cell tower triangulation methods require the knowledge of
the actual location of cell towers. Because the locations
of cell towers are not publicly available, these methods
often need to use estimated locations obtained through
wardriving. The results show that naively applying these
methods results in very large localization errors."

But how many apps have the capability to triangulate cellular towers?
Especially since many of us have our own personal cell tower at home.

Even if they did (which is unlikely), I'm all for adding tower spoofers.
Especially since we know the bad guys unilaterally track people shamelessly
*17 fake cell towers discovered in one month*
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/2600348/are-your-calls-being-intercepted-17-fake-cell-towers-discovered-in-one-month.html>

To add value to this thread that the iKooks can never provide, I ask:
*What free Android apps spoof cellular tower triangulation*
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+spoof+cell+tower+triangulation>

*How can we identify and/or spoof cell triangulation trackers on Android?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/2A_ts2LBMyM>

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:01:25 +0100, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> WhatsApp can only reasonably used with access to contacts.

It's sad that people like Joerg Lorenz are incapable of learning.

*Joerg is ignorant* because he doesn't know anything about using WhatsApp.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 12:21:54 -0500, nospam wrote:

> note that 'help operate, improve, understand, customize, support and
> market our services' is vague. a *lot* can meet that definition.

I agree with nospam that the lawyers who write this stuff leave loopholes
that are so huge as to make most of these statements almost meaningless.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 18:04:26 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli wrote:

>> note that 'help operate, improve, understand, customize, support and
>> market our services' is vague. a *lot* can meet that definition.
>
> I agree with nospam that the lawyers who write this stuff leave loopholes
> that are so huge as to make most of these statements almost meaningless.

While I commend Frank for looking up the WhatsApp privacy agreement and
noting that they apparently say the cull out the non-WA members in your
contacts, and while I agree with nospam that privacy agreements are written
in language meant to be easily subverted... one key question remains...

If Frank Slootweg is correct that they cull out from your contacts those who
of your contacts who didn't accept a WhatsApp privacy agreement...

The obvious question is:

*Exactly _where_ does WA cull out the non-WA-users from your contacts db?*

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 12:21:56 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> People like Steve who refuse to accept facts, are doomed to a life of
>> ignorance.
>
> he can join you.

The conversation below is surprisingly adult given the iKook's childishness.

You always claim everyone knowledgeable is ignorant, nospam, but you don't
even have _any education_ to speak of, so what do you know about knowledge?

Almost every time we ask you to back up your strongly held claims, you fail.

That.
That.
That.

That is the mark of a bullshitter, nospam.

BTW, I don't think you're as stupid as Alan Baker (IQ ~40) or Jolly Roger
(IQ ~50) or Lewis (IQ ~60), but you do _not_ have even an average
intelligence.

It's _easy_ to tell that by the way you make so many mistakes in
comprehension of facts, and, in how you make claims that you don't even
realize are completely wrong and in all your fabrications of imaginary
functionality that you truly believe (like the lemon-juice bank robber did)
exist...

Even more so, the way I know you lack even average intelligence (although
you're far above the likes of the aforementioned actual idiots), is all your
responses to fact lack any _adult_ substance.

All you have, to respond to facts, are childish kindergarten taunts.
Like "ftfy", for example.

If you had even an _average_ intelligence, nospam, you'd react to facts like
an adult instead of always like a small child would.

Still, I don't plonk you as you're actually the smartest of the iKooks.
--
Fancy that.

[Carlos E.R.]

Unless the message you are sending is precisely your location.

WhatsApp can send your current location, or a link to follow you for a
limited time. The first uses the GPS for a few seconds, and the later
uses it constantly, for a limited time you specify, or till you stop it.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[sms]

On 2/8/2022 10:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

> WhatsApp can send your current location, or a link to follow you for a
> limited time. The first uses the GPS for a few seconds, and the later
> uses it constantly, for a limited time you specify, or till you stop it.

GPS spoofing is very useful, not just with WhatsApp.

I last used GPS spoofing to watch a sporting event (a bowl game with my
university's team) that was not available in my region. Hooked the phone
up to the TV with an HDMI cable and stuck the phone on a wireless charger.

There are benefits to not allowing others to know your location. When
away from home on vacation you really don't want people to know that
you're away and the house is empty.

GPS spoofing can be accomplished on both Android and iOS devices, but
iOS devices require jailbreaking, see
<https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/06/15/location-faker/>.

This is detailed on page 20 of the document, #27a "GPS location
spoofing" at <https://tinyurl.com/iOS-Android-Features>.

GPS spoofing is built into Surfshark VPN for Android
<https://support.surfshark.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011723459-What-is-the-GPS-override-feature-and-how-to-use-it->.

Remember, using a VPN is often not sufficient to access content in
locations that is normally not available in your location.

[nospam]

In article <stuc2b$1efg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> You always claim everyone knowledgeable is ignorant,

nope. i claim those who are actually ignorant to be ignorant, and only
about the specific topics where they are ignorant.

i'm sure you're knowledgeable about something, although what that might
be is unknown. it's clearly not computers, cars, biology, psychology or
etiquette.

[nospam]

In article <stub0b$t16$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> and stupid Android owners.

you're talking about yourself again.

> But I was very clear that we're not talking about the crippled iOS phones.

i didn't mention any particular platform, nor are ios devices crippled.

both ios and android use similar methods to locate, with ios having
some options not available to android. there are some minor differences
in specifics, but nothing that's relevant.

you can deny permission, except that's often bypassed.

<https://apnews.com/article/north-america-science-technology-business-ap-
top-news-828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb>
An Associated Press investigation found that many Google services on
Android devices and iPhones store your location data even if you靶e
used a privacy setting that says it will prevent Google from doing so.

Computer-science researchers at Princeton confirmed these findings at
the AP零 request.

there are also methods that don't directly use location services, which
means it's immune to granting or denying permission.

> We're talking about _my_ Android phone,

no, we're talking in general terms about what apps can do.

you are very much an outlier, which amusingly enough makes it *easier*
to track you.

> which you're very well aware that:
> a. GPS is easily spoofed

except that a gps is not used nor is it needed for messaging apps,
which has already been explained to you.

> b. Wi-Fi is already set to _not_ report _any_ nearby access points

you can't prevent that unless you turn off wifi entirely.

you have claimed that you spoof your own wifi bssid, which doesn't do
what you think it does.

> c. Cellular IP & triangulation is highly unlikely by apps

false.

it's very clear you don't understand how any of this works, just as you
do not understand every other topic. you're just babbling, pretending
to know everything. you do not.

the only way to prevent cellular being used for location is by
disabling cellular entirely by activating airplane mode.

that means you would need to use wifi to send/receive messages, which
can geolocate you more accurately than cellular can.

you could disable *both* wifi *and* cellular, except the downside is
you will not have internet and therefore be unable to send/receive
messages at all. that's not a good tradeoff.

put simply: if you can send/receive messages, your location can be
determined in ways you obviously do not understand.

> d. VPN is on (so the IP Address geolocation won't be accurate)

unless it leaks (and based on what you've said in other threads, yours
probably does), but even assuming it doesn't, there are other methods
available.

it's clear you don't know how any of this works.

> e. Bluetooth is always off (I just don't have a need for it)

that doesn't matter, since messaging isn't an appropriate use of
bluetooth beacons.

> f. And a few others (tell us, nospam, _what_ others?)

uwb, accelerometer, camera and app usage patterns.

they are suited for specific circumstances which are not relevant to
whatsapp or other messaging platforms, thus categorizing them as other.

tl;dr - google, facebook, microsoft and others aren't stupid. they know
all of the tricks, including ones you haven't even thought of.

[nospam]

In article <8hqadi-...@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> WhatsApp can send your current location, or a link to follow you for a
> limited time. The first uses the GPS for a few seconds, and the later
> uses it constantly, for a limited time you specify, or till you stop it.

true, but that's not something someone would normally do if they did
not want their location to be known.

[nospam]

In article <stufmb$4pg$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> GPS spoofing is very useful, not just with WhatsApp.

that does nothing for whatsapp.

> GPS spoofing can be accomplished on both Android and iOS devices, but
> iOS devices require jailbreaking,

false.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:41:31 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> and stupid Android owners.
> you're talking about yourself again.

I leave you those tidbits which you never fail to take because you have no
education to speak of, so all you have are your childish predictable taunts.

>> But I was very clear that we're not talking about the crippled iOS phones.
>
> i didn't mention any particular platform, nor are ios devices crippled.

I was being very clear that in terms of privacy, the iOS devices are
crippled. For example, how do you use iOS without having to _constantly_
(forever!) keep logging into the Apple servers nospam (which they track)?
<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity

Hell, iOS is so crippled, you can't even re-download a deleted app nospam!
(without being _forced_ to log into Apple's tracking servers, that is)
<https://i.postimg.cc/TwN6P0QR/appleid08.jpg> Only Apple requires a login

Which is very clearly explained in this thread which no iKooks can resolve:
*How does iOS download an app twice WITHOUT the idiotic iCloud password?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/TksR-Zr5h_Y>

I have an iOS device right in front of me, nospam, that insists, every day,
for over a year (maybe even two years) that I must log in to the iCloud just
to get the functionality that I paid for on that crippled Apple iOS device.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional

[nospam]

In article <stuqcf$1u70$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> I was being very clear that in terms of privacy, the iOS devices are
> crippled.

as usual, you are incorrect.

> For example, how do you use iOS without having to _constantly_
> (forever!) keep logging into the Apple servers

there is no need to constantly log in.

it appears you are confusing authenticating a download with logging in.

it also appears you have zero understanding why that's a good thing.

you are a clueless dolt who blames everyone else for your own stupidity.

> Hell, iOS is so crippled, you can't even re-download a deleted app nospam!

rubbish.

well, maybe *you* personally can't, but that's only because you're
clueless.

everyone else other than you definitely can re-download deleted apps
without any issues whatsoever, and on any device they own, even if it
was installed and deleted on a *different* device.

either search for the app in the app store or even easier, search for
it in purchased apps. any app that has been previously been installed
and later deleted will have a cloud icon:
<https://cdn4syt-solveyourtech.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11
/iphone-cloud-icon-app-store-1.jpg>

purchased items is sorted by date, so if it's a recent download, the
app will be at or near the top of the list, thereby eliminating the
need for a search.

of course, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with messaging
apps datamining user metadata.

you are intentionally moving the goalposts because you know you're in
*way* over your head.

[Andy Burnelli]

On 8 Feb 2022 15:29:44 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> We manage Non-user phone numbers in a way that is designed to prevent
> Non-users from being identified by WhatsApp through creating a
> cryptographic hash value from the Non-users phone numbers. We dont
> store Non-users phone numbers, we only store these cryptographic hash
> values.

Steve should be commended for quoting those facts from the WA literature.

The obvious question to ask is _where_ is that cryptographic hash generated?

a. On the phone?
b. At the mothership?

Likewise, an obvious question is where is that crytographic has _stored_?

a. On the phone?
b. At the mothership?

>> WA/Facebook is in the position to misuse these contacts to send unwanted
>> ads and even do more bad things.
>
> I'm sure the owner of the hashed number is severely annoyed by this.

There are obvious questions to ask once we read Steve's insightful quote.

For example:
Why does WhatsApp not _delete_ those contacts as someone has said they do?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:52:09 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Steve should be commended for quoting those facts from the WA literature.

Ooops. Sorry Steve. Frank.

The obvious _adult_ questions remain unanswered though, which are:

Where is the cryptographic hash generated & where is it stored?

a. On the phone?
b. At the mothership?

And why doesn't WhatsApp _delete_ those non-WA contacts after all?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:41:25 -0500, nospam wrote:

> nope. i claim those who are actually ignorant to be ignorant, and only
> about the specific topics where they are ignorant.
>
> i'm sure you're knowledgeable about something, although what that might
> be is unknown. it's clearly not computers, cars, biology, psychology or
> etiquette.

If you had even an _average_ intelligence, nospam, you'd be able to quickly
react to facts like an _adult_ would instead of always like a small child.
(e.g., "ftfy")

But you're actually correct about etiquette - which proves even those who
make everything up like you do can actually guess correctly once in a while.

Still, I don't plonk you as you're actually the _smartest_ of the iKooks.
--
Fancy that.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 17:51:09 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> For example, how do you use iOS without having to _constantly_
>> (forever!) keep logging into the Apple servers
>
> there is no need to constantly log in.

Then why does the iPad pop this up _every_ time it wakes up, nospam?
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple iCloud is required

> it appears you are confusing authenticating a download with logging in

The iPad is so crippled it _constantly_ requires you to log into the iCloud:

<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity

> of course, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with messaging
> apps datamining user metadata.

Ah, but it does.

On Android, the default messaging apps work just fine without any login to
the mothership, nospam - yet - on the iPad, mothership login is required.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> iMessage & Facetime fail

[nospam]

In article <stv0m2$9ar$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> >> For example, how do you use iOS without having to _constantly_
> >> (forever!) keep logging into the Apple servers
> >
> > there is no need to constantly log in.
>
> Then why does the iPad pop this up _every_ time it wakes up, nospam?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple iCloud is required

because you refuse to provide a password.

once you do that, it will stop asking.

unfortunately for you, you claim to have forgotten the password, as
well as using a disposable email, making recovery not an option.

this is entirely your own fault.

you really are that stupid.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 19:41:12 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> Then why does the iPad pop this up _every_ time it wakes up, nospam?
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple iCloud is required
>
> because you refuse to provide a password.

Every sentence out of your mouth proves you completely lack education.
You can't understand even the _simplest_ of basic circumstances, nospam.

Such as:
1. I logged in once, years ago, and I _never_ want to log in again.
2. That worked fine, for years.
3. But recently, Apple has _required_ additional login actions

The fact is Apple unilaterally logged me out.
Why is Apple _forcing_ additional logins which no other OS requires?

> once you do that, it will stop asking.

The fact is Apple unilaterally logged me out.
Why is Apple _forcing_ additional logins which no other OS requires?

> unfortunately for you, you claim to have forgotten the password, as
> well as using a disposable email, making recovery not an option.
>
> this is entirely your own fault.
>
> you really are that stupid.

Apple is the only operating system I own that requires tracking me via a
mothership login that _none_ of my other devices ever need or neded, nospam.

Worse, Apple unilaterally (yes that's a big word for you, I know, but it
means Apple did it without asking me) logged me out of the iCloud.

Why did Apple log me out of the iCloud after a few years of use?
I don't know why.

Perhaps Apple did that to _force_ me to log in anew nospam.

The iCloud login worked for years, nospam.
Years.

Only recently, in the past two years, Apple has required repeated logins.
Why?

[Boris]

Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252:

> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others
> outside of the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and
> England. I'd like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is
> for personal use, not business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is
> cheaper, but still costs.
>
> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was
> reading about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information
> with Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business
> accounts.
>
> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one
> have to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
>
> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with
> Facebook?
>
> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?
>
> TIA

Ok, so my three questions have been answered, early on in this post.

1) Does one have to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
Answer, no.

2) Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with
Facebook?
Answer, Yes. (For me, I don't care, since I don't have a Facebook
account, but I asked this question not yet knowing if I needed a Facebook
account to use WhatsApp.)

3) Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?
Answer, yes.

The post did fuel opposing opinions?/facts? about how/if WhatsApp
collects information on it's users, and how to circumvent this behavior.
I found much of this discussion a battle of my WhatsApp Terms of Use/link
disproves your WhatsApp Terms of Use/link. However, those Terms of Use,
as one poster said, are so general that they are useless in determining
the rights of the user. Loopholes and generalities, all over the place,
so much so that even an intelligent reader can't determine their rights,
or how the app actually operates.

Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
users contacts, what are the repercussions? As I've said, my main
concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
contact list.

Two repliers here have said they get no adds. That's fine. I like that.
But, what are the more serious implications of WhatsApp knowing my
contacts and whatever information about myself they may be able to
discern?

I'm don't wear a tin hat, but I don't like information collection because
at some point, the collectors have enough information and share the
information that is used by those that will make assumptions about the
user.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-08 20:18, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 10:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> WhatsApp can send your current location, or a link to follow you for a
>> limited time. The first uses the GPS for a few seconds, and the later
>> uses it constantly, for a limited time you specify, or till you stop it.
>
> GPS spoofing is very useful, not just with WhatsApp.

Why on earth would you use GPS spoofing, when intentionally telling
WhatsApp to share your location with someone? Breaks the user purpose.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Obviously. But very useful when you want to meet someone.

Thus WhatsApp has an appropriate reason to request permission to access
precise location.

Happened to me several times. A technician has to come to my home to do
some repairs. He gets the appointment from the call center, he does not
understand the directions, he calls, I try to explain but takes time, so
instead I ask, can I send you the location on whatsapp? Certainly. So
instants later he has the location to tap and google maps will direct
him to the correct spot.

It is a useful feature.


Or, I'm travelling and another person wants to know where I am and
expected time of arrival. Tap on whatsapp to share my location for 4
hours, say, which covers my trip. No need to ask where I am for a while.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-09 05:40, Boris wrote:
> Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> news:XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252:

...

> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
> users contacts, what are the repercussions? As I've said, my main
> concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
> contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
> contact list.

Nobody gets your contact list. Nobody can divulge it.

WhatsApp reads you phone contact list in order to generate a WhatsApp
contact list, ie, the list of people that you can communicate with using
WhatsApp. That list is internal to your phone.

The only thing that gets "published" is that other people that use
WhatsApp, and already have you in their phones contact list, also get
you listed in the internal contact list of the WhatsApp application, so
that they can contact with you via WhatsApp. They also get you know your
name in WhatsApp, published mini photo if you have it, published status
if you have it. You can limit these features.

>
> Two repliers here have said they get no adds. That's fine. I like that.
> But, what are the more serious implications of WhatsApp knowing my
> contacts and whatever information about myself they may be able to
> discern?

As long as you don't have the facebook application installed, nothing.
At least in Europe. If you do have a facebook account, and your profile
lists your phone, then facebook can "sync" more information.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Frank Slootweg]

Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
> users contacts, what are the repercussions? As I've said, my main
> concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
> contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
> contact list.

[See also Carlos' response of today.]

I have explained several times - and gave specific references to
WhatsApp legal documents explaining this - that WhatsApp does not store,
nor shares, your non-WhatsApp contacts, nor the non-WhatsApp contacts of
your WhatsApp contacts. As Carlos mentions, obviously your WhatsApp
contacts - specifically their phone numbers, not their names - *are*
stored by WhatsApp, otherwise the system cannot work.

Bottom line: No non-WhatsApp contacts are leaked, not yours and not
those of your contacts.

> Two repliers here have said they get no adds. That's fine. I like that.
> But, what are the more serious implications of WhatsApp knowing my
> contacts and whatever information about myself they may be able to
> discern?

Again, WhatsApp *doesn't* "know your contacts". And, as I indicated in
my very first response, they only know your name (if real), mobile
number (if real) and optionally (for 2SV) *an* e-mail address.

> I'm don't wear a tin hat, but I don't like information collection because
> at some point, the collectors have enough information and share the
> information that is used by those that will make assumptions about the
> user.

So since you don't wear a tin hat, stick to facts and reality and
don't swallow the fear-mongering/FUD of some trolls which claim that
'they' can do things which are impossible in the real world. Don't fall
for their babbling, demand proof. Guess what? They can't and won't
deliver. They'll only emit more fairytales from their phantasialand.

And think about their agenda(s)! *Why* are they spreading that
unsubstantiated fear-mongering/FUD? What is their hidden agenda? For the
trolls in this thread, there agendas are blatantly obvious.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.02.22 um 13:23 schrieb Carlos E.R.:

> On 2022-02-09 05:40, Boris wrote:
>> Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>> news:XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252:
>
> ...
>
>> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
>> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
>> users contacts, what are the repercussions? As I've said, my main
>> concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
>> contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
>> contact list.
>
> Nobody gets your contact list. Nobody can divulge it.
>
> WhatsApp reads you phone contact list in order to generate a WhatsApp
> contact list, ie, the list of people that you can communicate with using
> WhatsApp. That list is internal to your phone.

You are naïve.

> The only thing that gets "published" is that other people that use
> WhatsApp, and already have you in their phones contact list, also get

That exactly tells you why your first claim is false. This process
cannot be done on the phone. That is pure logic.




--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[sms]

On 2/9/2022 4:05 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

> Why on earth would you use GPS spoofing, when intentionally telling
> WhatsApp to share your location with someone? Breaks the user purpose.

It does not break the user purpose, unless you believe the only purpose
of WhatsApp is for the other person to know your location. Sometimes you
want people to think that you're at home when you're not.

Of course the benefits of GPS spoofing are not limited to WhatsApp.

Gamers, such as Pokémon GO players, spoof their location for competitive
a advantage.

Some users spoof their location for privacy to prevent their location
from being tracked.

Some users spoof their location to be able to view online content that
is geographically limited. Used to be that all was required was a VPN to
do this, but increasingly a VPN is not sufficient.

[sms]

On 2/9/2022 4:23 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

> As long as you don't have the facebook application installed, nothing.
> At least in Europe. If you do have a facebook account, and your profile
> lists your phone, then facebook can "sync" more information.

Also, you can separate your WhatsApp and Facebook accounts, they don't
have to be tied together.

On an Android device you can even have multiple users on the device,
totally separate (iOS doesn't yet have this capability; Apple is
apparently working on it, see
<https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/technology/apple-is-apparently-working-on-bringing-multiple-user-support-to-iphones/2156134>,
though this is an old article).

[Frank Slootweg]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 09.02.22 um 13:23 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> > On 2022-02-09 05:40, Boris wrote:
> >> Boris <Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> >> news:XnsAE34B10C82067B...@144.76.35.252:
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
> >> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
> >> users contacts, what are the repercussions? As I've said, my main
> >> concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
> >> contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
> >> contact list.
> >
> > Nobody gets your contact list. Nobody can divulge it.
> >
> > WhatsApp reads you phone contact list in order to generate a WhatsApp
> > contact list, ie, the list of people that you can communicate with using
> > WhatsApp. That list is internal to your phone.
>
> You are naïve.

Nope. His statement is correct. Your misundertanding is not his
problem.

> > The only thing that gets "published" is that other people that use
> > WhatsApp, and already have you in their phones contact list, also get
>
> That exactly tells you why your first claim is false. This process
> cannot be done on the phone. That is pure logic.

Earth to Joerg Lorenz: The basic idea is to read and (try to)
understand what you're snipping. Snipping without understanding leads to
incorrect assumptions, like the one(s) you just made.

Moral: Read what people *actually* wrote, not what you think (hope?)
they meant.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 04:40:27 -0000 (UTC), Boris wrote:

> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
> users contacts, what are the repercussions?

Your summary, that I snipped, is _excellent_ and befitting an adult.
Thank you for such an excellent erudite concise summary Boris.

With regard to what you and I talked about Boris, if they can't dial
WhatsApp directly, they're just ignorant because free tools exist.
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

So if they're ignorant (or on iOS?) they give Whatsapp their contacts.
But if they're not ignorant (and on Android), they don't.
Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Click to chat [small, no ads], TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>

It's that simple (AFAICT).
At least on Android, it is that simple to have privacy from the mothership.
--
Note that I didn't check if iOS isn't crippled or if it can do this too.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:23:56 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> WhatsApp reads you phone contact list in order to generate a WhatsApp
> contact list, ie, the list of people that you can communicate with using
> WhatsApp. That list is internal to your phone.

I find that claim somewhat dubious, if only because your phone doesn't yet
know if the contact is on WhatsApp just by virtue of being in your contacts.

*How does the phone know the sum total of contacts who are in WhatsApp?*
a. The WhatsApp server knows this
b. But how would your phone know this (all by its itty bitty self)?
It can't, right?

Therefore I assume Carlos' statement is wrong, or incomplete, in that, it
seems to me, only WhatsApp servers know who (in toto) is on WhatsApp.

It seems to me your phone doesn't have enough information to make that
determination (only the WhatsApp servers have that kind of information).

But I could be wrong, so I'd like Carlos to show us where he got that claim
that the phone is as magically omnipotent as Carlos' claim seems to make it.

[Andy Burnelli]

On 9 Feb 2022 16:34:02 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Moral: Read what people *actually* wrote, not what you think (hope?)
> they meant.

Frank.

Maybe Joerg is missing something (which wouldn't be a surprise to anyone).
And maybe I'm missing it too (which I'm sure, you'd agree years in advance).

But the question remains valid whether or not your hand waving solved it.
[You accuse nospam of doing what you and Carlos just did, in fact, Frank.]

You & Carlos make a claim that seems preposterous upon first inspection.
It even seems preposterous upon second and third inspection, Frank.

Is it?
1. The phone has a list of contacts, A, B, C, D, E, and F.
2. Let's say A, B, C are on WhatsApp while D, E, F are not.
3. Let's say you communicate on WhatsApp _only_ to A & B but not C.

How does a phone know (all by its itty bitty self) that "C" is on WhatsApp?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 08:10:51 -0800, sms wrote:

> On an Android device you can even have multiple users on the device,
> totally separate (iOS doesn't yet have this capability;

*The _only_ consumer OS that can not have native multiple users is iOS.*
But, with a clusterfuck of effort, you _can_ add multiple users (sort of).

*Does the iPad Support Multiple Users?*
<https://www.lifewire.com/does-ipad-support-multiple-users-1994241>
"The iPad is a single-user device, which means the central login is
persistent. This login controls access to the App and iTunes Stores
but doesn't save information like settings.

The single-user focus extends to apps like Safari, which keeps track
of bookmarks and web history for all users rather than a specific user.

However, there are some tricks you can use to make sharing an iPad
a little easier."

As always, iOS is the only common consumer operating system that is crippled
in even the most basic ways that _every_ other modern operating system has.

[Andy Burnelli]

On 9 Feb 2022 15:32:50 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> So since you don't wear a tin hat, stick to facts and reality and
> don't swallow the fear-mongering/FUD of some trolls which claim that
> 'they' can do things which are impossible in the real world. Don't fall
> for their babbling, demand proof. Guess what? They can't and won't
> deliver. They'll only emit more fairytales from their phantasialand.

Frank,

Who made any claims, Frank, that they didn't or couldn't easily back up?
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg> No need for WA contacts

Is _your_ new claim above (again) completely baseless, Frank? (as usual)

If not, name who made those baseless claims you so fervently proclaim exist?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 08:01:00 -0800, sms wrote:

> Some users spoof their location for privacy to prevent their location
> from being tracked.

It needs to be said Steve is perfectly correct that it's trivial to spoof
your location, fulltime, on Android, by default, as the Android operating
system is _designed_ for the privacy API to allow you to easily do that.

On iOS... that privacy is, if it can be obtained at all, a clusterfuck.

As always, iOS is crippled in almost all functionality compared to Android.
*Particularly with respect to iOS' lack of privacy control*
--
Those who claim iOS is more private only know what Apple fed them to know.

[nospam]

In article <stvbp3$1mg6$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> 1. I logged in once, years ago, and I _never_ want to log in again.

provide the password and it won't ask you anymore. very simple.

your failure is not apple's fault.

> 2. That worked fine, for years.

then you did something to change it.

> 3. But recently, Apple has _required_ additional login actions

it doesn't require it.

> The fact is Apple unilaterally logged me out.

nope. you did that.

you'll never admit it though.

[nospam]

In article <XnsAE38D24F8EE86B...@144.76.35.252>, Boris

<Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
> Bottom line question, if one does get a WhatsApp account, and doesn't
> have a Facebook presence, but can't direct WhatsApp to not collect the
> users contacts, what are the repercussions?

facebook will create a shadow account for you if they haven't done that
already and collect whatever data they can about you, including from
whatsapp, then market it to advertisers. that's how they make money.
the more data they have, the more money they make.

they don't need to explicitly grab your whatsapp contacts to determine
your social graph, and if they can get it in another way and link it to
you, then they have it while remaining compliant with 'we didn't
collect contacts'. part of that is who you message, and even better is
those people don't need to be in your contacts in the first place.

> As I've said, my main
> concern is that users that I communicate with, if they now have my
> contact list, if I can't disable this, that they unknowingly divulge my
> contact list.

that's a possibility.

> Two repliers here have said they get no adds. That's fine. I like that.

either they're using some sort or ad blocking or they're not telling
the full story.

[nospam]

In article <su0p2c$7tt$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Also, you can separate your WhatsApp and Facebook accounts, they don't
> have to be tied together.

you're delusional if you think that actually does anything unless
someone takes extreme measures to keep them *very* separate, which will
include using separate devices in very different locations.

facebook is not stupid and you're not going to outsmart them.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 18:55:39 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> Two repliers here have said they get no adds. That's fine. I like that.
>
> either they're using some sort or ad blocking or they're not telling
> the full story.

Boris & nospam,

I'm confused by your statement if you're talking about ads inside WhatsApp.

I don't remember ever seeing ads in WhatsApp but my system is hardened a bit
so I looked up the Whatsapp apk on Google Play which shows it has no ads.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.whatsapp>

Even the iOS Whatapp IPA doesn't show that it has any ads, does it?
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/whatsapp-messenger/id310633997>

Where are these non-existing ads in WhatsApp supposed to be coming from?

[Andy Burnelli]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 18:55:36 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> 1. I logged in once, years ago, and I _never_ want to log in again.
>
> provide the password and it won't ask you anymore. very simple.

You don't seem to grasp any comprehension of the actual situation, nospam.
*"Please Update Your Apple ID Settings!*
*"Some account services _require_ you to sign in again!"*
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!

Look at these screenshots I just made to explain this to you, nospam.
(BTW, do you know what "Raj. 7, 1443 AH" means?)
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kkj19v/appleid12.jp> Apple tracking server login

I already told you that Apple _unilaterally_ logged me _out_ and I don't
have the password (and I never wanted a login in the first place).

The facts are (a) I don't want to _ever_ log into the Apple tracking
servers, but (b) I am being _forced_ to _periodically_ log into the Apple
tracking servers, which is something that Apple is _forcing_ upon users.

Look.
Look.
Look at the message, nospam.
*"Some account services _require_ you to sign in again!"*

That's not me logging out, nospam.
That's Apple _unilaterally_ forcing us to periodically log in again.

You probably don't notice it because you probably log into the Apple
tracking servers all the time, nospam... But I don't ever want to do that.

I don't ever want to log in ever again to an Apple tracking server.
Yet, Apple unilaterally logged me out so now they're _forcing_ that login.

Android can't do that because Android works fine without a mothership login.
Of my devices, _only_ Apple _requires_ a tracking account on the mothership.

What's shocking is how _little_ you know about Apple's lack of privacy.

But my question is...
Why can't Apple let us have even basic privacy from their tracking servers?

[Boris]

Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:su1skh$10t0$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

Andy and nospam,

I've seen the WhatsApp app on Google Play. I wasn't asking if adds are
transmitted within the WhatsApp itself. I don't believe that is the
case, but I may be wrong. I was wondering if as a result of using
WhatsApp, I'd find more ads when browsing without an ad blocker. (I
don't use any ad blockers.) Or, if I'd get more spam email.

I may consider Ring or Zoom, which I've used before, with no (noticeable)
ill effects. If this starts another conversation, I'll start a new
thread.

[nospam]

In article <XnsAE39DB9D22D0FB...@144.76.35.252>, Boris

<Bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
> I've seen the WhatsApp app on Google Play. I wasn't asking if adds are
> transmitted within the WhatsApp itself. I don't believe that is the
> case, but I may be wrong. I was wondering if as a result of using
> WhatsApp, I'd find more ads when browsing without an ad blocker. (I
> don't use any ad blockers.) Or, if I'd get more spam email.

you'll find that the ads you see are more relevant.

some people prefer that. they'd rather see ads for stuff they might
actually want versus something random.

others are creeped out by it. they don't want facebook, google, etc.
collecting data about them and monetizing it.

> I may consider Ring or Zoom, which I've used before, with no (noticeable)
> ill effects. If this starts another conversation, I'll start a new
> thread.

zoom has its own issues.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/news/zoom-security-privacy-woes>
It turned out that Zoom's end-to-end encryption wasn't quite
end-to-end, that other Zoom meeting attendees could see a lot about
you, and that pranksters and bored teenagers could "Zoom bomb" public
meetings with shocking or rude content.

Zoom's privacy policies also seemed to give Zoom the right to do
whatever it wanted with users' personal data.

Most of those flaws have fixed or otherwise mitigated since the
spring of 2020, but newer issues seem to crop up on a regular basis.
We've got a running list of what's gone wrong with Zoom, what's been
fixed and what's still an open issue ‹ after we give you a few tips
on how to make Zoom safer to use.

[Carlos E.R.]

You are missing the context.

The context is that the user *intentionally* creates a message in
WhatsApp to share his location with another user, either for an instant
in time, or for a period in time.

That is, the user *wants* to tell the other person his location.
Granted, he may want to lie about it, which is dishonest.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-02-09 18:28, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:23:56 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> WhatsApp reads you phone contact list in order to generate a WhatsApp
>> contact list, ie, the list of people that you can communicate with using
>> WhatsApp. That list is internal to your phone.
>
> I find that claim somewhat dubious, if only because your phone doesn't yet
> know if the contact is on WhatsApp just by virtue of being in your contacts.
>
> *How does the phone know the sum total of contacts who are in WhatsApp?*
> a. The WhatsApp server knows this
> b. But how would your phone know this (all by its itty bitty self)?
> It can't, right?

The phone only needs to ask wasap "is this number a client"? The server
doesn't need to store that new number. It only needs to store your own
number, and every other client own numbers.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

I have no add blocker at all. And I'm not withholding any information. I
already said I'm European, so European laws and restrictions apply.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

No, and no.


The only leak of information I have detected was years ago, and I traced
it back to the google keyboard, not to whatsapp.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[nospam]

In article <chafdi-...@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> The only leak of information I have detected was years ago, and I traced
> it back to the google keyboard, not to whatsapp.

what about the leaks you didn't detect?

[Carlos E.R.]

They do not hurt :-)

(Spanish saying applies → out of sight, out of mind)


Example. I ask a friend in wasap about where to buy a whatever.

Now, if I see an advert (outside of wasap, because wasap doesn't have
adverts) about "whatever", which is what we are talking about, that
would be a tell tale. And it simply does not happen.


What you can detect, though, is that you type some sentence in whatsapp,
and then try to type the same sentence in gmail, and predictive text
almost fills your exact sentence. That's the google keyboard, and this
is mentioned somewhere in the legal text.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 10.02.22 um 00:55 schrieb nospam:

They do not know better.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:40:10 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> The phone only needs to ask wasap "is this number a client"? The server
> doesn't need to store that new number. It only needs to store your own
> number, and every other client own numbers.

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for answering the question as an adult (which is refreshing).
I repeat: Usenet _should_ be an adult conversation as you did above.

For my part, not only will I treat you as an adult in this response, but, as
always, since I am an adult, I will strive to _add value_ in every post.

I had already figured out, in the interim, a method which WhatsApp "might"
use that is slightly different from yours above (in a key privacy manner) in
that a one-way _hash_ "can" be what WhatsApp might use for that query.

I'm not saying they use the hash but someone else (Frank?) had already
mentioned the concept but whomever it was did didn't explain _how_ that hash
is being used by the WhatsApp servers (or how it's used on the phone).

... However ...

I figured out a way (since I'm not stupid) that "might" work though.
(I'm ignorant of _how_ WhatsApp does it - but my ignorance can be cured.)

My first guess on how WhatsApp "could" be doing is goes something like the
following which somewhat mirrors your (except it differs in the detail).

a. The WA app on your phone grabs your contacts.db sqlite database
b. The WA app on your phone runs a _hash_ of each contact, one by one
c. That _hash_ is uploaded to the WA server to compare with WA records
d. If that hash _matches_ a WA customer, WA reports it back to the phone

Two questions for the adults on this newsgroup:
1. Does that hypothesis seem to make any sense to you (for privacy)?
2. Can we find any statement from WhatsApp that confirms _how_ they do it?
--
Usenet should be a polite discusion between adults who each add their value.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:33:00 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> That is, the user *wants* to tell the other person his location.
> Granted, he may want to lie about it, which is dishonest.

Carlos is correct that WhatsApp doesn't seem to have a problem with privacy
with respect to sending others GPS location since you must first allow it.

BTW, after thinking about it for a few minutes, and putting together what (I
think it was Frank?) someone said about Whatsapp _hashing_ the contacts...

I figure out a way that WhatsApp _might_ be preserving contact privacy.

a. The WA app on your phone grabs your contacts.db sqlite database
b. The WA app on your phone runs a _hash_ of each contact, one by one
c. That _hash_ is uploaded to the WA server to compare with WA records
d. If that hash _matches_ a WA customer, WA reports it back to the phone

Notice that this requires _all_ contacts to be uploaded as a hash.
But then, the WhatsApp server _informs_ the WhatsApp app on your phone.
That way, the phone now knows which contacts are WhatsApp contacts.

Unfortunately, this has to be done "periodically" in order to stay current.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 06:56:31 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> The only leak of information I have detected was years ago, and I traced
>> it back to the google keyboard, not to whatsapp.
>
> what about the leaks you didn't detect?

Both nospam and Carlos and nospam bring up good points
a. Keyboards "can" leak privacy (so they should be chosen wisely)
b. There are plenty of leaks (a new one every day!) we don't even know about

Carlos brings up a good point that keyboards _can_ transmit information to
the mothership (particularly if they use voice to text features).

I don't know if iOS has privacy keyboards, but there are some Android
keyboards that expressly 'claim' they don't hand off your keystrokes.

Searching the Google Play repo with the typical Aurora persistent filters
(i,e., free, ad-free, gsf-free, google free, rated 4+, 100K+ d/l, etc.)
comes up with a some apps befitting those strict requirements, such as...

*OpenBoard*, by dslul "a FOSS keyboard that doesn't spy on you"
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dslul.openboard.inputmethod.latin>

*Hacker's Keyboard*, by Klaus Weidner
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard>

And some privacy based apps come with their own encrypted keyboards (AFAICR):
*Keepass2Android Password Safe* by Philipp Crocoll (Croco Apps)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=keepass2android.keepass2android>
<https://philipp.crocoll.net/keepass2android/index.php>
<https://github.com/PhilippC/keepass2android>
--
I didn't search Apple 'cuz their search engine is as crippled as Google's.

[Andy Burnelli]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:45:56 +0100, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

>> either they're using some sort or ad blocking or they're not telling
>> the full story.
>
> They do not know better.

Joerg, as always, adds no value where at least Boris noted that he wasn't
concerned about ads _inside_ the WhatsApp app (since there aren't any).

He was concerned about ads popping up elsewhere.

And even then, he was concerned about those ads containing information that
WhatsApp would have gleaned from "listening" to his conversation.

How WhatsApp can do that I'll leave up to Frank to determine with facts
(or to Joerg and nospam to outright deny without any facts whatsoever).

[sms]

I get no ads in WhatsApp, but my VPN includes ad-blocking for both
websites and apps. I could turn off my VPN to see if I start seeing ads.