Thanks and Q

[arye...@gmail.com]

Thank you so much to Simmy for all of his organizing and encouraging to help my daughter Ruti and thank you so much to everyone for all of their tefillos and anything else you may have been doing on my daughter's behalf, with and without my and my wife's knowledge.

Let's try to use this site for not just tefillah but Torah as well.

I have not been able to look into it so answer may be obvious but why did Avraham plead, daven, negotiate to try and save the people of Sedom but did not do the same to spare his son's life?

[Avi Hochman]

A thought...When the tefillah is for someone else it is always better!

 But to intervene on yourself, Avraham was nogeah b’davar! Avraham had a direct command from HKBH maybe he wasnt going to “test” that nisayon (or as the midrash points out, there were signs that Hashem did not want Avraham to completely go through with it so there was no need to actively fight to save Yitzchak, but it was still a nisayon)

But Avraham always “went to bat” for others so k’darcho he attempted to save Sedom but his own son was off limits and to follow the command was the ultimate sacrifice! 

[Ari Spiegler]

Rav Sacks likes to quote Rav Asher Weiss' vort that he says regarding how, at times, our Avodah is to accept and not question while at others we are Davka encouraged to question and understand. Within this piece, Rav Asher Weiss notes that, according to a Medrash quoted by Rashi, Avraham asks how the Tzivoy for the Akeida fit with Avraham's Nevuah of Ki B'Yitzchak Y'Karei L'cha Zara. However, he only asks this after the Malach commands him not to harm Yitzchak. Why didn't he ask this when he received the initial Tzivuy? Rav Asher Weiss writes:

...מכאן למדנו דכל זמן שהיה מצווה ועומד הזמן לעשות ולא לשאול, אך לאחר שנאמר לו אל תשלח ידך שוב איננו מצווה לעשות זה הזמן ל"חקות הפסח", הזמן לשאול ולהבין...

 We Davka don't ask when there is a Tzivuy. That's when we act (and possibly ask later). When there is no Chiyuv to act, then we are meant to ask and understand.

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[Matan Wexler]

The book, Angel Among Men, bio about Rav Kook, there is a paragraph which discusses why Rav Kook davened for others and not for his own son who was childless.  I don't have the book with me and it's been several years since I read it but I think that the explanation given was that Rav Kook was so involved with the klal that his personal life and family was put aside to a certain extent.  Does anyone else remember seeing this?

This could be another angle in terms of Avraham's davening for others and not his son.  I vaguely recall that there are meforshim that discuss why the Torah mentions how Yitzchak and Rivka davened for children and Avraham is conspicuously absent.

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[Effy Unterman]

The Akeida was a mitzvah. You don't ask God to change a mitzvah. You simply obey.

Everything else is fair game.

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[Aryeh Sova]

Was it a tzivui for Moshe to allow BY to be destroyed after egel hazahav?

וְעַתָּה֙ הַנִּ֣יחָה לִּ֔י וְיִֽחַר־אַפִּ֥י בָהֶ֖ם וַאֲכַלֵּ֑ם וְאֶֽעֱשֶׂ֥ה אוֹתְךָ֖ לְג֥וֹי גָּדֽוֹל׃

וַיְחַ֣ל מֹשֶׁ֔ה אֶת־פְּנֵ֖י יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהָ֑יו וַיֹּ֗אמֶר לָמָ֤ה יְהוָה֙ יֶחֱרֶ֤ה אַפְּךָ֙ בְּעַמֶּ֔ךָ אֲשֶׁ֤ר הוֹצֵ֙אתָ֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרַ֔יִם בְּכֹ֥חַ גָּד֖וֹל וּבְיָ֥ד חֲזָקָֽה׃

Or was it a tzivui for Moshe to lead BY out of Mitzrayim?

וְעַתָּ֣ה לְכָ֔ה וְאֶֽשְׁלָחֲךָ֖ אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֑ה וְהוֹצֵ֛א אֶת־עַמִּ֥י בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מִמִּצְרָֽיִם׃

וַיֹּ֤אמֶר מֹשֶׁה֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים מִ֣י אָנֹ֔כִי כִּ֥י אֵלֵ֖ךְ אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֑ה וְכִ֥י אוֹצִ֛יא אֶת־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מִמִּצְרָֽיִם׃

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[Effy Unterman]

A) that was like Sodom. When God says, "I'm going to do x," it seems like argument is ok (as opposed to: "you do x."). As far as הניחה לי, I think some mefarshim pick up on that and say it was actually an invitation. I'd have to look it up. 

B) seems like God wasn't too pleased with Moshe objecting. Of course, he wouldn't be the last prophet to try getting out of it, nor the last to be chastised for it. 

Having said all that, the selichos (based on midrashim) say Avraham and Yitzhak did daven: מי שענה לאברהם אבינו בהר המוריה הוא יעננו, מי שענה ליצחק כשנעקד...

Still, peshat is that Avraham didn't argue against a direct command, but did argue against what he thought God was going to do on His own. 

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[Yossi Goldin]

Yasher Koach to Aryeh for getting some great Torah discussion going on here!

My father in his book Unlocking The Torah Text has a piece on this. His basic premise, which is somewhat similar to some of the suggestions made here but phrased a bit differently, is that there is difference between “din” and “nisayon”. By Sodom, Hashem was operating within the world of “din”, and in that world, everything is based on sense and logic- in which case Avraham is invited to challenge, argue, and struggle with Hashem. When it comes to the Akeida, however, Hashem operated without the world of nissayon, and in that world, we don’t understand Hashems commands or actions- and the challenge is instead to try and rise up to the challenge. 

My father suggests that Avraham was somehow able to intuitively understand which realm each thing was coming from and therefore was able to know how to respond.

We, however, in our lives are not necessarily able to intuit in the same way- and therefore our proper response is to struggle, argue, and plead for din and justice- while at the same time in the end ultimately attempting to accept the ultimate outcome as a nissayon.

On Oct 13, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Effy Unterman <feir...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Aryeh Sova]

See similar discussions at this post:

https://groups.google.com/g/chabura/c/zxl4Q9K4CV8/m/Qbjwe234BQAJ

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[Sher]

Effy, the understanding you quoted regarding הניחה לי is quoted by Rashi there:

רש"י שמות פרשת כי תשא פרק לב

י) הניחה לי - עדיין לא שמענו, שהתפלל משה עליהם, והוא אומר הניחה לי, אלא כאן פתח לו פתח והודיעו, שהדבר תלוי בו, שאם יתפלל עליהם לא יכלם:

Also, I think it's interesting what you quote from Slichos about Avraham and Yitzchak davening on Har HaMoriah, but it's unclear from there about what he was davening about. I don't know if it's Davka about not having to bring Yitzchak as a Korban. Does anyone know of any Mekor where it discusses the content of what Avraham or Yitzchak were praying to Hashem about during the Akeida?

[Ezra Goldschmiedt]

In a previous ichabura thread, I quoted the following from Rav Amital:

On the topic of Avraham and the Akedah, Rav Amital assumes that Avraham prayed for Yitzchak to be spared. He has an interesting essay on this in "When God is Near" (page 141). Some select quotes:

Immediately we ask: Was it really Abraham’sprayer that brought about God’s intervention in the Akedah? Surely from the beginning God’s intention was merely to test him, and there was never the slightest possibility that Abraham would sacrifice his son?

From the Mishna (Ta'anit 2:4) we see that our Sages knew that the halting of the Akedah represented not only the realization of the divine will, but also a response to Abraham’s human cry. Even had the divine plan not been to prevent the slaying, Isaac would have been saved by virtue of Abraham’s prayer... Clearly, Hazal based themselves on a tradition that Abraham prayed, that he instituted a “prayer service” at that moment which has endured for generations...

Despite God’s commandment to sacrifice his son, Abraham did not accept its finality; he prayed for his son. [There is] a dual response to God’s command. On the one hand, he was a loyal servant, eager to fulfill his Creator’s word; on the other hand, he was a loving and compassionate father who could not control his feelings, and prayed for his son, pleading for his life to be spared.

We are familiar with the phenomenon of the suppression of any human or parental feelings while in the throes of religious ecstasy. In biblical times this found expression in the worship of Moloch, and in our times we see the same attitude in the response of our neighbors to the death of a “shahid.” Had Abraham’s test lacked this human dimension, the Akedah would not only lose its grandeur, but perhaps the whole episode would have been illegitimate and invalid.

No earlier source that he gets this from, but it sounds like a rather reasonable conclusion - what else would there be to daven for in this circumstance that we could say was granted to Avraham (i.e. that it makes sense to declare "מי שענה")?

- Ezra

[Aryeh Sova]

Per my earlier post:

What were Avraham and Yitzchak davening for and/or what was HaShem answering?

• Keren Orah  At the time of the akeidah, HaShem was responding to His own promise to Avraham about having multitudes of descendants 
• Maharsha (Taanis 15a) reads Avraham telling Yitzchak אלוקים יִרְאֶה-לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה, בְּנִי as a bakasha which HaShem responded to with the ayil
• Shlah explains that while they were both overjoyed about the mitzvah, they also cried heavily shedding many tears that Yitzchak should be spared.  Avraham was confused and conflicted about whether this command was a nisayon from HKBH (this elicited joy) or a trick from Satan (crying)
• Medrash Bereishis Rabosi 22:14 they davened together and Yitzchak requested that his ashes serve as a remembrance on behalf of BY whenever trouble befalls them

(Google has gifted me this: ובענין מה שאנו אומרים מי שענה לאברהם אבינו בהר המוריה, מבואר במהרש”א במסכת תענית שם שאין הכוונה שהקדוש ברוך ענה לאברהם אבינו בזה שיצחק לא נשחט, שהרי כל שאיפתו של אברהם היה שיצחק ישחט, ולכן הוא מסביר שהכוונה היא שהקדוש ברוך הוא זימן לו את האיל ששחט בתמורת יצחק, אמנם עיין בתוספות יום טוב במשניות שם שהביא בשם הירושלמי שמבואר שם שאברהם אבינו כן התפלל שיצחק לא ישחט, ועל זה הקדוש ברוך הוא ענה לו, ולפ”ז אפשר אולי לומר שכמו שאברהם אבינו התפלל על כך, כמו כן יצחק אבינו התפלל על כך. וכן הביא הגרחיים קניבסקי בשם מדרש ויושע ששניהם בכו שינצל. [ספר ענינו של יום חלק מועדים עמוד כ] )

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