Vowel syncope in Kannada

[Nityānanda Miśra]

Vishvas Vasuki wrote in a thread on this list (red highlighting mine) “On the other hand, if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify, given the high likelihood of error.”

There are three things Vishvas Vasuki is extremely good at (1) misunderstanding a statement (2) misrepresenting the same (3) using abusive/offensive words (think about the reaction if a North Indian had used a word like southie, Madrasi, etc. on this list: the worth northie is in the same category). Question to list owner/Prof. Paturi: do you approve the use of the word northie for an ethnic North Indian like me on this list?

Anyway, let us not digress. I do not care if Vishvas Vasuki abuses me. I have been called a Hindu degenerate by him on Twitter in the past (though God only knows why he still retweets me now and then despite that). But given that Vishvas Vasuki misunderstood and misrepresented my position, this thread is essential.

Firstly the clarification: I never made up even a single example of schwa deletion in Kannada/SI languages. If Vishvas Vasuki can misrepresent the position of Shatavadhani R. Ganesh, who am I?

Anyway, it is a known fact that vowel syncope (of which schwa syncope is a subset) happens in spoken/colloquial Kannada. This has been attested in academic publications by Kannada, Indian, and foreign linguists for more than sixty years. Here are eleven references. If Vishvas Vasuki, whose mother tongue is probably Tamil (or a dialect of Tamil), does not know about the language spoken in his own state of residence, it is not my problem. If he thinks all these eleven publications are wrong, he should point me to a reliable source which proves them to be wrong. If he cannot, he should read more about Kannada before talking [and before misrepresenting me].

[1958] Bright

Bright, William (1958). An Outline of Colloquial Kannada.
Unfortunately I do not have a digital copy of this work (members are requested to share if they have one). The book has several sections on [vowel] syncope in Kannada including Syncope (2.4.1), Syncope before pause (2.4.2), Syncope before vowel or /h/ (2.4.3), Syncope before consonants (2.4.4) and Antepenultimate syncope 2.4.5.

[1982] Andronov

“In colloquial Kannada, words are very often shortened by dropping vowels either at the end (apocope) or from the middle (syncope) , e.g. ... ”

Mikhail Sergeevich Andronov (1982). The Kannada Language. p. 25.

[1983] Schiffman

Note: Ellipsis in red mine.

“1.3.6. Vowel deletion/reduction. Various writers (e.g., Ramanujan 1967; Bright 1970) have pointed out that the most noticeable difference between SK [=Spoken Kannada] and LK [=Literary Kannada] is the deletion or extreme reduction of short vowels in SK when they follow the first syllable of a word. For example, vowel deletion (and consonant cluster reduction; see 1.3.7) operates on an LK sentence as follows:

LK ondu uurinalli obba raaja idda → SK ond uurnall ob raaja idda ‘in a town there was a king’
In general, most short vowels following the first syllable of a word are deleted; or, if the deletion would lead to the formation of unacceptable consonant clusters (generally three or more consonants together, with a few exceptions), the vowels are reduced to an extremely short sound. In the case of reduction rather than deletion, it is extremely difficult to state a general rule specifying which vowels in a sequence are deleted entirely and which are reduced. In case of doubt, the student is advised to use full or reduced vowels rather than deleting them completely.”
—Schiffman, Harold (1983). A Reference Grammar of Spoken Kannada. University of Washington Press, pp. 19-20.
Link: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/kannada/grammar/KaGram1.pdf

[1989] Verma

Note: Correction in red mine

“Syncope is the elimination of medial vowels or consonants.
Examples
Hindi:       asal + i: → əsli:  ‘real’
Kannada: hɛsər[u]  ‘name’ → hɛsr[u]

                a:ḷigɛ ‘to the servant’ → a:ḷgɛ

(when these words are followed by a pause)
Shivendra Kishore Verma (1989). Modern Linguistics: An Introduction. ISBN 9780195622621. Oxford University Press. p. 71.

[1990] Sridhar

Sridhar, S.N. (1990) Kannada (Descriptive Grammars Series). ISBN 9780415003179. London: Routledge.

I do not have this book. But as I learn from several publications I referred to, including Hock (2016), the book discusses vowel syncope in Kannada. The book is written by a linguist of Indian origin (most likely of South Indian origin): https://iaac.us/professor-s-n-sridhar/

[1999] Author(s) unkknown

“2.2 In tadbhava borrowings there are several types of phonological changes in the lexemes. These changes are illustrated below.
1 . Vowel syncope: Vowels are dropped in medial syllables if they are fringed by single consonants: 
18. guruguñji (DED 1549) → gurguñji ‘seed of Arbus precatorious/Crab's eye’

19. takkaḍi (DED 2437) →  takḍi ‘a balance’

Journal of the Karnatak University. Humanities. Volume 42. p. 85.

[2001] Bhat

“(ii) Syncope: This change involves the loss of a word-medial sound. It can be exemplified with the help of the change of trisyllabic words into disyllabic ones through the elision of the second vowel, which has taken place in the Mysore dialect of Kannada.

(3) 

Gloss / Standard Mysore / Kannada Kannada

horse / kudure / kudre

arecanut / aḍike / aḍke

door ba:gilu / ba:glu

mustard / sa:sive / sa:sve

inside / oḷage / oḷge

shop / angaḍi / angḍi”

D. N. Shankara Bhat (2001). Sound Change. ISBN 9788120817661. Motilal Banarsidass Publishers. p. 66.

Link: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Sound_Change/rcAzHKoV1Q0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA66

[2003] Hammann
“The retroflex and the non-retroflex in Kannada are often only adjacent after deletion of an intermediate vowel. This process of vowel deletion and another one of vowel reduction, also observable in the data in (55) are not discussed here.”
—Silke Hamann (2003). The Phonetics and Phonology of Retroflexes. Utrecht University Repository. (Dissertation). p. 120.
Link: https://www.lotpublications.nl/Documents/075_fulltext.pdf

[2009] Barnes

“Durational curtailment of non-initial syllables, however, is demonstrated in the frequent patterns of syncope of non-initial vowels in various patterns throughout the histories of various Dravidian languages, e.g., Kannada (Schiffman 1983), Kurux (Pfeiffer 1972; Gordon 1976) and Malto (Gordon 1976).” 

Jonathan Barnes. Positional Neutralization in Phonetics and Phonology. Mouton de Gruyter. ISBN 9783110197617, p.29. 

Link: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Strength_and_Weakness_at_the_Interface/TFl2uERWQFoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA29

[2014] Manjula and Sharma
“  In Kannada, deletion of most short vowels following the first syllable of a word generally takes place. However, if the deletion would lead to the formation of an unacceptable consonant cluster, the vowels are reduced to an extremely short sound.”
—Manjula, R. and Sharma, Naresh. Motor Speech Disorders in Languages of the Indian Subcontinent: Some Perspectives from Hindi and Kannada. In Motor Speech Disorders: A Cross-Language Perspective (2014), ISBN 9781783092321, p. 213 (chapter pp. 207-221).
Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Apo3BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA213

[2015] Steever

Note: sic erat scriptum in red mine

“One of the most common phonological processes in spoken Kannada is the syncope of a short vowel the a second syllable of words of three or more syllables, so that literary hesaru ‘name’ becomes hesru ‘id.’, nanage ‘to me’ becomes nange ‘id.’, kelasa ‘work, job’ becomes kelsa  ‘id.’, ādare 'if one becomes becomes [sic] ādre ‘id.’. Bright (1958) uses this process as an indirect argument for the existence of prefixes in Kannada. The syncopated, allegro pronunciation of the verb prakaṭisu ‘publish’ is prakaṭsu, which implies the analysis /pra+kaṭisu/ with an internal boundary, instead of the ungrammatical *prakṭisu which would come from a form without an internal boundary. Sridhar (1990) gives additional, morphological evidence to support the existence of prefixes in the language.”

—Sanford B. Steever (2015). The Dravidian Languages. ISBN 9781136911644. Routledge. p. 131.

[2016] Hock

Note: Colour highlighting mine

“3.3.3.2. Syncope in Telugu and other Dravidian languages
As noted in 3.3.7.1.2, Mohanan draws on vowel loss to determine Malayalam stress placement (but see Terzenbach 2011). Vowel syncope is also found in Kannada (Sridhar 1990: § 3.4.4.1.2). See also Kissock & Reiss 2003 for Koya, with syncope very similar to Telugu.
Telugu syncope has received greater attention. As in Koya, but unlike Malayalam and Kannada, it is an EXTERNAL-sandhi process, affecting final vowels before word or compound boundary. The first publication to account for the phonology of Telugu syncope is Kelley 1963; see also Wilkinson 1974a. Krishnamurti (1957) observes that syncope takes place only if the flanking consonants are homorganic, with the proviso that all coronals are homorganic. Kissock & Reiss (2003) observe that syncope also takes place before word-initial vowel and that, contrary to Krishnamurti, it also takes place if the flanking consonants are not homorganic (as in nellūru biyyam —> nellūrbiyyam ‘Nellore rice’).”
Hans Henrich Hock (2016). The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide. ISBN 9783110423303. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. p. 394
Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=PSFBDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA394

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Nityānanda Miśra

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 9:28:51 PM UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

Vishvas Vasuki wrote in a thread on this list (red highlighting mine) “On the other hand, if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify, given the high likelihood of error.”

There are three things Vishvas Vasuki is extremely good at (1) misunderstanding a statement (2) misrepresenting the same (3) using abusive/offensive words (think about the reaction if a North Indian had used a word like southie, Madrasi, etc. on this list: the worth northie is in the same category). Question to list owner/Prof. Paturi: do you approve the use of the word northie for an ethnic North Indian like me on this list?

"Southie" is not an offensive word. Neither is "mallu" for malayALis. "madrAsI" is an evil term because of it being used in bollywood films (avoiding "brothelwood" with effort) to negatively caricature south Indians  (verifiable with Gems of Bollywood account on Twitter). I contend that "northie" is not offensive either - and that nityAnanda is just using as a tool to get at me - in his desperation (mirrored in Ajit, Shrinivas and possibly Kushagra) to convince admins to take action against me.

 

Firstly the clarification: I never made up even a single example of schwa deletion in Kannada/SI languages.

Kindly obseve the video quoted in https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/03HggX7gCuI/m/MKRhky3oAAAJ , where nityAnanda uses the example of the kannaDa actor popularly called "rAjkumar", to imply that the elision of a in the word rAjakumAra is typical usage (recall that this was in the context of yog vs yoga and Nag punch me vs nAgapanchamI). Beyond fashionably hindified modern names, the gentleman has not heard this song - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWh5cvW4xFg  apparently, not read kannaDa books or exposed to kannada usage involving the term "rAjakumAra" (meaning prince). 

If Vishvas Vasuki can misrepresent the position of Shatavadhani R. Ganesh, who am I?

This is false. shrI R Ganesh gave a talk about SL Bhairappa in Gokhale Institute, where he mentioned something about his remarkable vyAkaraNa studies. As I mentioned - I don't recall the specifics of that claim (the concerned FB account being long deleted). One can purchase a recording of the talk from Gokhale Institute and verify for oneself the details - I wouldn't be surprised if it contains a detail even R Ganesh himself does not recall.

 

Further, I recall R Ganesh mentioning SL Bhyrappa frequenting the cemetary in Delhi. I recall Nityananda asking for corroboration there too. What should I do - search for sattellite photos LOL? 

And yes (recalling another FB post from the same time), my friend visited PoK in the 90s and did all the deeds (I recall) you don't believe - nityAnanda - I am not going to scour the country for evidence to convince you.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I did not notice earlier that there was a question addressed to me by Sri Nityanand-ji in that post by him . 

Now I noticed it while going through this post. 

Now let me answer that question,

"Question to list owner/Prof. Paturi: do you approve the use of the word northie for an ethnic North Indian like me on this list?"

-- NO. I don't approve. We as learned people should not resort to such slang words as far as possible. My observation is that such expressions are used by juvenile youngsters out of their adolescent fancy for such newly learnt, what they think, 'fun' words. In fact, in their oqwn circles of the same age group, it may not lead to big problems too as the whole group is fun -loving and take such usages towards themselves by others easy. They easily  take it because they give the same too. 

But they too gradually learn that world at large does not take such usages easily and may land them in trouble in public discourse. That happens as part of their growing up. 

  

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Vishvas 

I would like you to read my responses to your points carefully. Please do.

On Friday, 27 August, 2021 at 6:28:29 pm UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

"Southie" is not an offensive word.

You may think it is not offensive, but many others do not. Here is one example from an online dictionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/southie

southie (plural southies)

1. (India, slang, sometimes offensive) Somebody from South India; a Dravidian language speaker.

 

Neither is "mallu" for malayALis.

I do not know if it is offensive or not, but it is a slang word nevertheless.

 

"madrAsI" is an evil term because of it being used in bollywood films (avoiding "brothelwood" with effort) to negatively caricature south Indians  (verifiable with Gems of Bollywood account on Twitter).

It was for a long time a neutral term. The great Hindi poet Suryakant Tripathi Nirala used it in a book in 1930s to refer to a Tamil visitor at the Prayaga Kumbha Mela. Many Hindi books used the word with no pejorative or negative undertone till second half of twentieth century. Over time, it acquired negative overtones and is is today seen as an offensive slur. 

A minor diversion: Bollywood movies have caricatured many communities: South Indians, Sindhis, Parsis, Gujaratis, Sikhs, and even pure Hindi speakers. The irony is that sometimes South Indians themselves have been involved in movies caricaturing South Indians, for example Chennai Express which was directed by Rohit Shetty (of Tulu descent) and written by K. Subash (a Tamilian). I may also point that beyond caricature is villainization, for example the character of the village Bania named Sukhilala in Mehboob Khan’s Mother India (1957). So, Hindi-speaking Hindu upper castes have not been spared either. Anyway, I would like to read reliable academic sources to see the history of the word and to know from when and due to what reasons the term 

 

I contend that "northie" is not offensive either - and that nityAnanda is just using as a tool to get at me - in his desperation (mirrored in Ajit, Shrinivas and possibly Kushagra) to convince admins to take action against me.

 

As an ethnic North Indian, I see it as offensive. And that is it. Rest assured, I have no intention of getting any admin to act against you. And if you think Ajit, Shrinivas, and Kushagra all mirror my desperation, then we are just thinking conspiracies.

Firstly the clarification: I never made up even a single example of schwa deletion in Kannada/SI languages.

Kindly obseve the video quoted in https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/03HggX7gCuI/m/MKRhky3oAAAJ , where nityAnanda uses the example of the kannaDa actor popularly called "rAjkumar", to imply that the elision of a in the word rAjakumAra is typical usage (recall that this was in the context of yog vs yoga and Nag punch me vs nAgapanchamI). Beyond fashionably hindified modern names, the gentleman has not heard this song - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWh5cvW4xFg  apparently, not read kannaDa books or exposed to kannada usage involving the term "rAjakumAra" (meaning prince). 

I would say that it is a misinterpretation of my position again. Please quote my exact words which made you conclude this. I did not say or imply this is typical usage. My words are कहीं-कहीं दक्षिण भारत में भी ये schwa-syncope दिखता है, और नामों में तो विशेषतः दिखता है  ... जो नामों में दिखता है यह संभव है उत्तर भारत की भाषीय प्रकृति का प्रभाव है. कहीं-कहीं = at some places, sometimes, not typical. Also, I specifically said दक्षिण भारत, not Kannada or Dravidian languages (which is different from South Indian languages: I do not need to tell you that Konkani spoken in Mangalore and Dhivehi spoken in Lakshadweep are South Indian languages). In addition, I have limited myself specifically to names in the discussion. Having researched names all over India for three years now, I can tell you with fair conviction (and can back it with statistics also) that terminal schwa deletion while spelling Sanskrit names in Karnataka (whether in Kannada or English) is no longer a fashionable trend but a norm. Furthermore I have clearly mentioned it as a Sanskrit name. 

You are right, I have not heard the song you cited, but songs are very different from spoken/colloquial language. In many musical contexts, schwa deletion does not take place even in Hindi. The rendition of Hanuman-Chalisa by Hari Om Sharan is case in point. However, I would say that I have seen the attached poster from 1954 (more than 65 years ago) of the Kannada movie ಬೇಡರ ಕಣ್ಣಪ್ಪ. Note how in this poster, the “new find” name is written in Kannada as ರಾಜಕುಮಾರ್ (not ರಾಜಕುಮಾರ which would be expected). Later, his name would be mostly written as ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್. I mostly saw ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್ or ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ on his busts and in Kannada newspapers in Bengaluru during 2004 to 2009 and rarely or never ರಾಜಕುಮಾರ. Even the Wikipedia article on the thespian uses ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್. Are we to say that  ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್ was a “fashionably Hindified modern name” way back in 1954?

You are right, I have not read Kannada books, but I have referenced Kannada books (e.g. N Ranganatha Sharma's translation of VR). I have read Kannada newspapers, watched several Kannada movies (Mungaru Male was the first), watched Kannada news, and heard a lot of colloquial Kannada. So my exposure has mostly been to spoken/colloquial Kannada (SK) and not literary Kannada (LK). I did notice vowel/schwa deletion in some examples in spoken Kannada: often I heard hesrenu (and not hesarenu). I had not read the theory behind it. But now I have read some. The eleven references I shared state the patterns clearly.  

If Vishvas Vasuki can misrepresent the position of Shatavadhani R. Ganesh, who am I?

This is false. shrI R Ganesh gave a talk about SL Bhairappa in Gokhale Institute, where he mentioned something about his remarkable vyAkaraNa studies. As I mentioned - I don't recall the specifics of that claim (the concerned FB account being long deleted). One can purchase a recording of the talk from Gokhale Institute and verify for oneself the details - I wouldn't be surprised if it contains a detail even R Ganesh himself does not recall.

 

I think the onus is on you to corroborate your claim. Shatavadhani Galu has already said he did not make such statements. 

 

Further, I recall R Ganesh mentioning SL Bhyrappa frequenting the cemetary in Delhi. I recall Nityananda asking for corroboration there too. What should I do - search for sattellite photos LOL? 

What is wrong in asking for a corroboration for something which sounds incredible? For all you know, I may use the corroboration to write about this incredible sadhana of S L Bhyrappa in an article or a chapter in a book. If you do not have a corroboration, it is great. If you do not, no problem.  

 

And yes (recalling another FB post from the same time), my friend visited PoK in the 90s and did all the deeds (I recall) you don't believe - nityAnanda - I am not going to scour the country for evidence to convince you.

I am not interested in a corroboration for this now. I may have been then.

Enough of digression. Now a question for you on the subject of the thread. If you have gone through the eleven references I shared, what is your position on vowel deletion in spoken/colloquial Kannada? Do you concur with the observations made by the authors or not? And if you do not, do you have a reliable source which contradicts them? 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 27 August, 2021 at 9:18:16 pm UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

 Anyway, I would like to read reliable academic sources to see the history of the word and to know from when and due to what reasons the term 

Incomplete sentence: I meant to write "Anyway, I would like to read reliable academic sources to see the history of the word and to know from when and due to what reasons the term came to be seen as an offensive slur"

 

What is wrong in asking for a corroboration for something which sounds incredible? For all you know, I may use the corroboration to write about this incredible sadhana of S L Bhyrappa in an article or a chapter in a book. If you do not have a corroboration, it is great. If you do not, no problem.  

A correction: I meant to write "If you have a corroboration, it is great. If you do not, no problem."

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/Oa1JM_7ppE4/m/n9GxUBjfAAAJ इत्य् अत्रोक्तरीत्या पुरा प्रेषितं न प्रसारितम् इति पुनरेव प्रेष्यते।

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 10:42 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

(resending with cc, since I got a rejection message - "We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact (bvparishat) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post messages to the group. " This is weird - whatever the moderator is trying here merits checking.)

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 10:36 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:18 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote: 

As an ethnic North Indian, I see it as offensive. And that is it.

Even "North Indian" (or anything - even shrI) when said with a smirk in the face and a disgusted tone becomes offensive. Best to reign in imagination with written word.

Rest assured, I have no intention of getting any admin to act against you. And if you think Ajit, Shrinivas, and Kushagra all mirror my desperation, then we are just thinking conspiracies.

Well, if you say so. (You did tag the admin though.)

 

I would say that it is a misinterpretation of my position again. Please quote my exact words which made you conclude this. I did not say or imply this is typical usage. My words are कहीं-कहीं दक्षिण भारत में भी ये schwa-syncope दिखता है, और नामों में तो विशेषतः दिखता है  ... जो नामों में दिखता है यह संभव है उत्तर भारत की भाषीय प्रकृति का प्रभाव है. कहीं-कहीं = at some places, sometimes, not typical. 

ठीक है - आप ने वह सब कहा। पर यह भी सच है कि नामोँ पर अधिक ध्यान देने के कारण यहाँ error of emphasis है, जिससे अकारत्याग की व्याप्ति दाक्षिणात्यभाषाओँ मेँ वास्तव से अधिक होने का भ्रम होता है। इसि लिए बोलता हूँ - ऐसे विचारोँ मेँ उत्तरदेश के लोगोँ का वचन परीक्षणीय होते हैँ। 

ऐसी एक और समस्या है -  विवृतह्रस्व-अकार और विवृत-दीर्घ-अकार के बीच अन्तर न हि जान पाते हैँ उत्तर के लोग। इस कारण वे समझते हैँ की कर्णाटादि-दाक्षिणात्य लोग पुँलिङ्गशब्दोँ के अन्त मे भी ह्रस्व के स्थान पर दीर्घ आकार बोललेते हैँ! (जहाँ तक स्मृति है - आपके भाषण मेँ भी यह भ्रम कहिँ प्रस्तुत था - "योगा", "योगाभ्यासा"।) 

 

You are right, I have not heard the song you cited, but songs are very different from spoken/colloquial language. In many musical contexts, schwa deletion does not take place even in Hindi.

In this case, colloquial usage (not to mention formal spoken usage) is also without elision of अ

 

I mostly saw ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್ or ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ on his busts and in Kannada newspapers in Bengaluru during 2004 to 2009 and rarely or never ರಾಜಕುಮಾರ. Even the Wikipedia article on the thespian uses ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್. Are we to say that  ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್ was a “fashionably Hindified modern name” way back in 1954?

जी हाँ। देशान्तरपद्धति का अनुकरण कोई नयी बात नहि है। (और नट विट शठ ऐसी परिवर्तनोँ को लाने मेँ अग्रेसर होते हैँ।)

  

I think the onus is on you to corroborate your claim. Shatavadhani Galu has already said he did not make such statements. 

No it is not (since I don't agree to "guilty until proven innocent" concept here)! Reason: If I said  SL Bhyrappa did 3 somersaults soon after listening to shrI R gaNesh's lectures, it would be because it was said in the lecture (which would have been fresh in my memory). With much regards to the shatAvadhAnin's prodigious short term and long term memory - 13 years is a long time to recall small details of some lecture.

 

 

Enough of digression. Now a question for you on the subject of the thread. If you have gone through the eleven references I shared, what is your position on vowel deletion in spoken/colloquial Kannada?

Yes, it exists. More so in the northern and rustic dialects.

Terminal a deletion though is so rare in standard (ie southern‌/ TV) colloquial kannaDa that one would be hard pressed to think of examples.

 

Do you concur with the observations made by the authors or not? And if you do not, do you have a reliable source which contradicts them? 

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Vishvas Vasuki

Thanks for your response. Please see my comments inline.

On Saturday, 28 August, 2021 at 11:11:50 am UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

 

I would say that it is a misinterpretation of my position again. Please quote my exact words which made you conclude this. I did not say or imply this is typical usage. My words are कहीं-कहीं दक्षिण भारत में भी ये schwa-syncope दिखता है, और नामों में तो विशेषतः दिखता है  ... जो नामों में दिखता है यह संभव है उत्तर भारत की भाषीय प्रकृति का प्रभाव है. कहीं-कहीं = at some places, sometimes, not typical. 

ठीक है - आप ने वह सब कहा। पर यह भी सच है कि नामोँ पर अधिक ध्यान देने के कारण यहाँ error of emphasis है, जिससे अकारत्याग की व्याप्ति दाक्षिणात्यभाषाओँ मेँ वास्तव से अधिक होने का भ्रम होता है। इसि लिए बोलता हूँ - ऐसे विचारोँ मेँ उत्तरदेश के लोगोँ का वचन परीक्षणीय होते हैँ। 

Very happy to see your response in Hindi, I wanted to respond in Hindi but will reply in English for now. I see that your original claim that I "made up examples" is now changed to "I mad the error of emphasis". While you may call it an error of emphasis, is it a factual error? I do not think so. Finally, I can emphasize/talk in detail about only those things which I know well. At the time of that interview I had not read much about the theory of vowel deletion in spoken/colloquial Kannada and so I could not cite any examples. Now I am better-read and can cite some examples. 

 

ऐसी एक और समस्या है -  विवृतह्रस्व-अकार और विवृत-दीर्घ-अकार के बीच अन्तर न हि जान पाते हैँ उत्तर के लोग। इस कारण वे समझते हैँ की कर्णाटादि-दाक्षिणात्य लोग पुँलिङ्गशब्दोँ के अन्त मे भी ह्रस्व के स्थान पर दीर्घ आकार बोललेते हैँ! (जहाँ तक स्मृति है - आपके भाषण मेँ भी यह भ्रम कहिँ प्रस्तुत था - "योगा", "योगाभ्यासा"।) 

I have spoken about vivṛta and saṃvṛta also in the same video. I am not convinced if I have a bhrama as you claim. Can you please cite a publication which states or conclusively proves that the terminal a in Sanskrit words as pronounced in Karnataka or the South is a vivṛta sound and not a saṃvṛta or dīrgha sound? One of the scientific ways to establish the truth would be to analyse images of the mouth and sound waves from audio recordings of pronunciation of saṃvṛta, vivṛta, and dīrgha sounds and compare them with similar images of the mouth and sound wave images from audio recordings of a reasonable sample size of people. One of the tests for judging whether a vowel is hrasva or dirgha is the time taken to pronounce the vowel sound. 

 

 

You are right, I have not heard the song you cited, but songs are very different from spoken/colloquial language. In many musical contexts, schwa deletion does not take place even in Hindi.

In this case, colloquial usage (not to mention formal spoken usage) is also without elision of अ

 

Try this for fun and an interesting example: hear Muhammad Rafi sing this song. He sings variously as rājakumār and rājakumāra3, the standard Hindi pronunciation being rājkumār. This to highlight the point that spoken language and music in that language can be quite different.  

 

No it is not (since I don't agree to "guilty until proven innocent" concept here)!

There is no question of guilt here. It is simply asking for a corroboration. If the speaker says he did not make such a claim and you say he did, I would rather trust the speaker.

 

 

Enough of digression. Now a question for you on the subject of the thread. If you have gone through the eleven references I shared, what is your position on vowel deletion in spoken/colloquial Kannada?

Yes, it exists. More so in the northern and rustic dialects.

Now we come to the most important part, the topic of the thread. Firstly, what do you mean by northern and rustic dialects? What do you mean by southern dialect? Do you have a source/citation to back up your claim? I ask because multiple published sources seem to say otherwise. As per Zvelebil (1970) the three major regional dialects of Kannada are Dharwar (North Canara), Mysore/Bangalore (old Mysore state), and Mangalore (South Canara). Of these, it is the Mysore dialect in which the dichotomy between colloquial and written standards is more pronounced than that in the Dharwar dialect as per Mahapatra, Padmanabha, McConnell and Verma (1989, see here). Mahapatra et al. point out that it is this Mysore dialect which has become more popular with films and radio using it. D. N. Shankara Bhat (2001) also says the vowel deletion takes place in the Mysore dialect of Kannada. Is that a northern or rustic dialect? I do not think so.   

 

Terminal a deletion though is so rare in standard (ie southern‌/ TV) colloquial kannaDa that one would be hard pressed to think of examples.

There is one cited by Schiffman (1983): LK ondu uurinalli obba raaja idda → SK ond uurnall ob raaja idda. Here we see terminal a deletion in obba raaja → ob raaja. I can also think of LK nanna hesaru → SK nan hes[a]ru which I have heard at times and which can also be confirmed by quite a few Google search results which show up for the Romanized "nan hesru" and "nan hesaru" (both searches in quotes). I am open to corrections here. 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:02 AM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very happy to see your response in Hindi, I wanted to respond in Hindi but will reply in English for now. I see that your original claim that I "made up examples" is now changed to "I mad the error of emphasis". While you may call it an error of emphasis, is it a factual error? I do not think so. 

मैने भी मेरे सन्देश " if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify"  मेँ परीक्षणीयता को ही विवक्षित किया। रहि "makes up examples" की बात - केवल  नामोँ का हि उल्लेख, वहाँ भी अर्वाचीननामोँ का उल्लेख (जो भाषाध्ययन की दृष्टि से नितरां विचित्र है) वहाँ विवक्षत था।

 

ऐसी एक और समस्या है -  विवृतह्रस्व-अकार और विवृत-दीर्घ-अकार के बीच अन्तर न हि जान पाते हैँ उत्तर के लोग। इस कारण वे समझते हैँ की कर्णाटादि-दाक्षिणात्य लोग पुँलिङ्गशब्दोँ के अन्त मे भी ह्रस्व के स्थान पर दीर्घ आकार बोललेते हैँ! (जहाँ तक स्मृति है - आपके भाषण मेँ भी यह भ्रम कहिँ प्रस्तुत था - "योगा", "योगाभ्यासा"।) 

I have spoken about vivṛta and saṃvṛta also in the same video. I am not convinced if I have a bhrama as you claim. Can you please cite a publication which states or conclusively proves that the terminal a in Sanskrit words as pronounced in Karnataka or the South is a vivṛta sound and not a saṃvṛta or dīrgha sound?

(उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) कन्नड मेँ अकारोच्चारण का संवृत्त न होना स्पष्ट संवृत्त और विवृत शब्दोँ के संस्कृतोचितनिर्वचन से हि पता चलता है।

लक्ष्य मेरे प्रत्यक्ष होने के कारण यहाँ शोधपत्रोँ की अपेक्षा नहि है। जिन को ऐसी सुविधा नहि है, उन को शोधपत्रादि छानना पडता है।

 

One of the scientific ways to establish the truth would be to analyse images of the mouth and sound waves from audio recordings of pronunciation of saṃvṛta, vivṛta, and dīrgha sounds and compare them with similar images of the mouth and sound wave images from audio recordings of a reasonable sample size of people. One of the tests for judging whether a vowel is hrasva or dirgha is the time taken to pronounce the vowel sound. 

यदि प्रत्यक्ष  कन्नडभाषियोँ से  राम, रामनाथ और रमा शब्दोँ बुल्वायें तो स्पष्ट उनके वर्णोँ मेँ मात्राभेद स्पष्ट पता चलता है। कोई भी कन्नडभाषा का विद्वान नहि बोलता कि कन्नडभाषी अन्तिम-अकार को दीर्घ करदेते हैँ। ये केवल आप लोगोँ का भ्रम है, न तु कन्नडभाषाविद्वांसोँ का। वहाँ हेतु भि स्पष्ट है - संस्कृत और औदीच्यभाषाओँ मेँ कण्ठोद्भवस्वरोँ मेँ दीर्घाकार का हि विवृतोच्चारण होता है।

 

Yes, it exists. More so in the northern and rustic dialects.

Now we come to the most important part, the topic of the thread. Firstly, what do you mean by northern and rustic dialects? What do you mean by southern dialect? Do you have a source/citation to back up your claim? I ask because multiple published sources seem to say otherwise. As per Zvelebil (1970) the three major regional dialects of Kannada are Dharwar (North Canara), Mysore/Bangalore (old Mysore state), and Mangalore (South Canara). Of these, it is the Mysore dialect in which the dichotomy between colloquial and written standards is more pronounced than that in the Dharwar dialect as per Mahapatra, Padmanabha, McConnell and Verma (1989, see here). Mahapatra et al. point out that it is this Mysore dialect which has become more popular with films and radio using it. D. N. Shankara Bhat (2001) also says the vowel deletion takes place in the Mysore dialect of Kannada. Is that a northern or rustic dialect? I do not think so.   

यहाँ भी लक्ष्य का प्रत्यक्ष होने के कारण शोधपत्रोँ को छानना मेरे लिए अपेक्षित नहि है। https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcFvat5Rzs को सुनने पर किसि को भि स्पष्ट होगा कि "More so in the northern" भाग सहि है। 

शिष्ट है ग्राम्यभाषा की बात - यह भि मेरा प्रत्यक्ष है, किन्तु यहाँ प्रदर्शित कर्ने के लिए चित्रोँ को डूण्ढ्ने का कालावकाश नहि है।

 

Terminal a deletion though is so rare in standard (ie southern‌/ TV) colloquial kannaDa that one would be hard pressed to think of examples.

There is one cited by Schiffman (1983): LK ondu uurinalli obba raaja idda → SK ond uurnall ob raaja idda. Here we see terminal a deletion

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

 

in obba raaja → ob raaja. I can also think of LK nanna hesaru → SK nan hes[a]ru which I have heard at times and which can also be confirmed by quite a few Google search results which show up for the Romanized "nan hesru" and "nan hesaru" (both searches in quotes). I am open to corrections here. 

"नन् हॆसरु" मेँ न्+अ का लोप है, न केवल अवर्ण का। 

 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 12:16 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

शिष्ट है ग्राम्यभाषा की बात - यह भि मेरा प्रत्यक्ष है, किन्तु यहाँ प्रदर्शित कर्ने के लिए चित्रोँ को डूण्ढ्ने का कालावकाश नहि है।

इस यह उचित निदर्शक है - https://vishvasa.github.io/kannaDa/gIte/rAjaratnam/ratnan_padagaLu/ratnan_prapancha/ ।

[Achyut Karve]

What change in अभ्यन्तर प्रयत्न takes place when a vowel is uttered संवृत instead of विवृत or vice-a-versa.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 12:41:39 pm UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:02 AM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very happy to see your response in Hindi, I wanted to respond in Hindi but will reply in English for now. I see that your original claim that I "made up examples" is now changed to "I mad the error of emphasis". While you may call it an error of emphasis, is it a factual error? I do not think so. 

मैने भी मेरे सन्देश " if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify"  मेँ परीक्षणीयता को ही विवक्षित किया। रहि "makes up examples" की बात - केवल  नामोँ का हि उल्लेख, वहाँ भी अर्वाचीननामोँ का उल्लेख (जो भाषाध्ययन की दृष्टि से नितरां विचित्र है) वहाँ विवक्षत था।

विवक्षत? विवक्षित? आपकी आपत्ति मेरी समझ के बाहर है, क्षमा करें।   

 

 

(उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) कन्नड मेँ अकारोच्चारण का संवृत्त न होना स्पष्ट संवृत्त और विवृत शब्दोँ के संस्कृतोचितनिर्वचन से हि पता चलता है।

लक्ष्य मेरे प्रत्यक्ष होने के कारण यहाँ शोधपत्रोँ की अपेक्षा नहि है। जिन को ऐसी सुविधा नहि है, उन को शोधपत्रादि छानना पडता है।

आपकी बात मेरे लिए तभी मान्य होगी जब भाषाशास्त्र के ग्रन्थों से प्रमाणित हो। कन्नड भाषा पर इतनी पुस्तकें लिखी जा चुकी हैं, इतने शोधपत्र लिखे जा चुके हैं तो किसी में तो अकार के द्विविध उच्चारण की चर्चा होगी? कन्नड में ಬ್ಯಾಂಕ್ आदि विदेशी शब्दों में आगम ध्वनियों की भी चर्चा हो पर संवृत-विवृत अकार की न हो इसपर मेरे लिए विश्वास करना कठिन है। कहीं चर्चा है, दृढ प्रमाण है, तो ದಯವಿಟ್ಟು उपस्थित करें फिर आपकी बात मानी जा सकती है।

 

 

यदि प्रत्यक्ष  कन्नडभाषियोँ से  राम, रामनाथ और रमा शब्दोँ बुल्वायें तो स्पष्ट उनके वर्णोँ मेँ मात्राभेद स्पष्ट पता चलता है। कोई भी कन्नडभाषा का विद्वान नहि बोलता कि कन्नडभाषी अन्तिम-अकार को दीर्घ करदेते हैँ। ये केवल आप लोगोँ का भ्रम है, न तु कन्नडभाषाविद्वांसोँ का। वहाँ हेतु भि स्पष्ट है - संस्कृत और औदीच्यभाषाओँ मेँ कण्ठोद्भवस्वरोँ मेँ दीर्घाकार का हि विवृतोच्चारण होता है।

आपके मत में भ्रम हो सकता है, पर आपका मत मेरे लिए मान्य नहीं है। हाँ, किसी कन्नड वैयाकरण अथवा भाषाविद् ने इसपर कुछ सप्रमाण लिखा हो (किसी भी भाषा में लिखा हो), तो उसे पढ़कर मैं विचार संभव है।

 

 

Yes, it exists. More so in the northern and rustic dialects.

Now we come to the most important part, the topic of the thread. Firstly, what do you mean by northern and rustic dialects? What do you mean by southern dialect? Do you have a source/citation to back up your claim? I ask because multiple published sources seem to say otherwise. As per Zvelebil (1970) the three major regional dialects of Kannada are Dharwar (North Canara), Mysore/Bangalore (old Mysore state), and Mangalore (South Canara). Of these, it is the Mysore dialect in which the dichotomy between colloquial and written standards is more pronounced than that in the Dharwar dialect as per Mahapatra, Padmanabha, McConnell and Verma (1989, see here). Mahapatra et al. point out that it is this Mysore dialect which has become more popular with films and radio using it. D. N. Shankara Bhat (2001) also says the vowel deletion takes place in the Mysore dialect of Kannada. Is that a northern or rustic dialect? I do not think so.   

यहाँ भी लक्ष्य का प्रत्यक्ष होने के कारण शोधपत्रोँ को छानना मेरे लिए अपेक्षित नहि है। https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcFvat5Rzs को सुनने पर किसि को भि स्पष्ट होगा कि "More so in the northern" भाग सहि है। 

क्षमा करें, ऐसे अपशब्द/गाली भरे वीडियो को मैं तुच्छ मनोरञ्जन के साधन से अधिक कुछ नहीं समझता।  

 

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

 

 

in obba raaja → ob raaja. I can also think of LK nanna hesaru → SK nan hes[a]ru which I have heard at times and which can also be confirmed by quite a few Google search results which show up for the Romanized "nan hesru" and "nan hesaru" (both searches in quotes). I am open to corrections here. 

"नन् हॆसरु" मेँ न्+अ का लोप है, न केवल अवर्ण का। 

पर अन्त्य वर्ण अकार ही है तो अन्त्य अकार का तो लोप है न? 

इस चर्चा में आगे यदि कोई प्रमाण प्रस्तुत हो तो मैं उत्तर दूँगा अन्यथा नहीं। ನನ್ನನ್ನು ಕ್ಷಮಿಸು!   

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 2:47:17 PM UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

(उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) कन्नड मेँ अकारोच्चारण का संवृत्त न होना स्पष्ट संवृत्त और विवृत शब्दोँ के संस्कृतोचितनिर्वचन से हि पता चलता है।

आपकी बात मेरे लिए तभी मान्य होगी जब भाषाशास्त्र के ग्रन्थों से प्रमाणित हो। कन्नड भाषा पर इतनी पुस्तकें लिखी जा चुकी हैं, इतने शोधपत्र लिखे जा चुके हैं तो किसी में तो अकार के द्विविध उच्चारण की चर्चा होगी?

व्यक्त है आपने बात को ठीक से समझा नहि। (उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) akāra kā kannaḍa bhāṣā me kēvala vivr̥ta hi uchchāraṇ होता है। संवृत्त नहि। 

यहाँ भी लक्ष्य का प्रत्यक्ष होने के कारण शोधपत्रोँ को छानना मेरे लिए अपेक्षित नहि है। https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcFvat5Rzs को सुनने पर किसि को भि स्पष्ट होगा कि "More so in the northern" भाग सहि है। 

क्षमा करें, ऐसे अपशब्द/गाली भरे वीडियो को मैं तुच्छ मनोरञ्जन के साधन से अधिक कुछ नहीं समझता।  

जैसी इच्छा। मै तो ऐसे प्रत्यक्षप्रमाण का अप्रिय होने के नाथे तिरस्कार नहि करता हूँ।

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

पर syncope नहि। और हिन्दी जैसे सन्धि के बिना भी deletion नहि।

  

पर अन्त्य वर्ण अकार ही है तो अन्त्य अकार का तो लोप है न? 

सहि। 

इस चर्चा में आगे यदि कोई प्रमाण प्रस्तुत हो तो मैं उत्तर दूँगा अन्यथा नहीं। ನನ್ನನ್ನು ಕ್ಷಮಿಸು!   

नात्र क्षमायाचनं किञ्चनापेक्ष्यते। यथारुच्य्आत्मानुकूलं वर्तताम्। नात्र मे जातु कश्चन लाभः प्राप्यमाणः। 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 2:24 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

What change in अभ्यन्तर प्रयत्न takes place when a vowel is uttered संवृत instead of विवृत or vice-a-versa.

संवृतोच्चारणे मुखविवरः सङ्कुचिततरो भवति।

 

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021, 12:41 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki), <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 12:16 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

शिष्ट है ग्राम्यभाषा की बात - यह भि मेरा प्रत्यक्ष है, किन्तु यहाँ प्रदर्शित कर्ने के लिए चित्रोँ को डूण्ढ्ने का कालावकाश नहि है।

इस यह उचित निदर्शक है - https://vishvasa.github.io/kannaDa/gIte/rAjaratnam/ratnan_padagaLu/ratnan_prapancha/ ।

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[Achyut Karve]

If a consonant cannot be uttered without a vowel (that is what grammarians believe.  How then there can be deletion of a vowel attached to a consonant, which ever language it may be?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 4:31 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

If a consonant cannot be uttered without a vowel (that is what grammarians believe.

वह स्वर व्यञ्जन से  पहले भी हो सकता है।

 

  How then there can be deletion of a vowel attached to a consonant, which ever language it may be?

लुप्त होने वाला व्यञ्जन का उच्चारण तो नहि होता है। तो आपत्ति नहि है।

 

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 4:31:30 pm UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 2:47:17 PM UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

(उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) कन्नड मेँ अकारोच्चारण का संवृत्त न होना स्पष्ट संवृत्त और विवृत शब्दोँ के संस्कृतोचितनिर्वचन से हि पता चलता है।

आपकी बात मेरे लिए तभी मान्य होगी जब भाषाशास्त्र के ग्रन्थों से प्रमाणित हो। कन्नड भाषा पर इतनी पुस्तकें लिखी जा चुकी हैं, इतने शोधपत्र लिखे जा चुके हैं तो किसी में तो अकार के द्विविध उच्चारण की चर्चा होगी?

व्यक्त है आपने बात को ठीक से समझा नहि। (उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) akāra kā kannaḍa bhāṣā me kēvala vivr̥ta hi uchchāraṇ होता है। संवृत्त नहि। 

संवृत, not संवृत्त. Anyway, I think it is you who did not get my point. If what you say is true, we have two different types of pronunciation of a, one in North Karnataka and one outside North Karnataka, right? This dichotomy (in North Karnataka and outside North Karnataka) is what I meant dvividha. If this difference in pronunciation is attested in any reliable published source, please point out the source. If a renowned Kannada linguist like D N Shankara Bhat who has extensively published in both Kannada (see here) and English (see here) says it, I will believe it. Just like I believe him when he says that the vowel deletion happens in the Mysore dialect of Kannada (despite you claiming it is more prevalent in northern and rustic dialects). 

 

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

पर syncope नहि। और हिन्दी जैसे सन्धि के बिना भी deletion नहि।

  

This is not syncope, but apocope. And Andronov (1982) has indeed used the term apocope for the dropping of final vowels in Kannada. 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 5:15:17 pm UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

 

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

पर syncope नहि। और हिन्दी जैसे सन्धि के बिना भी deletion नहि।

  

This is not syncope, but apocope. And Andronov (1982) has indeed used the term apocope for the dropping of final vowels in Kannada. 

 

Also: Bright (1958) uses the term apocope in An Outline of Colloquial Kannada. Verma (1989) also uses the term apocope in Modern Linguistics. His example is from Kannada: nənnə 'my' + pustkə 'book' → nənpustkə. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

For the benefit of those members who are interested in the origin of this discussion on BVP, I tried to locate and I think that it began in the thread :

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/b0Nf6itD3Rw/m/8ggTQl4wCQAJ

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:15 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 4:31:30 pm UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 2:47:17 PM UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

(उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) कन्नड मेँ अकारोच्चारण का संवृत्त न होना स्पष्ट संवृत्त और विवृत शब्दोँ के संस्कृतोचितनिर्वचन से हि पता चलता है।

आपकी बात मेरे लिए तभी मान्य होगी जब भाषाशास्त्र के ग्रन्थों से प्रमाणित हो। कन्नड भाषा पर इतनी पुस्तकें लिखी जा चुकी हैं, इतने शोधपत्र लिखे जा चुके हैं तो किसी में तो अकार के द्विविध उच्चारण की चर्चा होगी?

व्यक्त है आपने बात को ठीक से समझा नहि। (उत्तरकर्णाटक के बाहर) akāra kā kannaḍa bhāṣā me kēvala vivr̥ta hi uchchāraṇ होता है। संवृत्त नहि। 

संवृत, not संवृत्त.

Thanks.

 

Anyway, I think it is you who did not get my point. If what you say is true, we have two different types of pronunciation of a, one in North Karnataka and one outside North Karnataka, right? This dichotomy (in North Karnataka and outside North Karnataka) is what I meant dvividha.

Oh I see. Got it.

 

If this difference in pronunciation is attested in any reliable published source, please point out the source.

Well, I get this is not what you're looking for (you might start "songs don't count" etc..), but this came to mind - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tdYY6lUw9g 

Make of it what you will.

 

If a renowned Kannada linguist like D N Shankara Bhat who has extensively published in both Kannada (see here) and English (see here) says it, I will believe it. Just like I believe him when he says that the vowel deletion happens in the Mysore dialect of Kannada (despite you claiming it is more prevalent in northern and rustic dialects). 

In my circles shankara bhaT is more notorious than renowned - a leader in mischief like removing mahAprANa-s from the language, desanskritification etc.. To each his own!

 

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

पर syncope नहि। और हिन्दी जैसे सन्धि के बिना भी deletion नहि।

  

This is not syncope, but apocope. And Andronov (1982) has indeed used the term apocope for the dropping of final vowels in Kannada. 

Sure - ok.

[Bijoy Misra]

While I admire Sri Nityananda Misra's patience, the thread is degrading into assumptions

and unfounded declarations.  Some of us are subjected to the barrage!

The response could be why don't we quit?    We are complaining first.

Some more care in writing, checking spellings and reducing assumptions may help.

Bijoy Misra 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Prof. Misra, 

You have the option of not reading the thread, once you look at the title, you know that that is not something that you want to peep in. 

As a trained linguist, and a cultural anthropologist , I see an interesting aspect in this thread. 

Strength of one of the correspondents is that the language being discussed is his mother tongue. 

Strength of the other correspondent is that he is trying to rely on professional published material on the language that is not his mother tongue. 

These two strengths give both of them their respective sources of confidence. 

I am happy to see that currently the impoliteness that made several members write to me expressing their disgust is not found in the thread. 

All members need not be interested in all the topics /threads. Ignoring some threads after looking at their titles may save you from your inconvenience.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALw-kjX77pxNUkAX%3DX_jBC5Rn2eNx-T1C0vGWKOKBSHinj6MJQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021, 17:50 Bijoy Misra, <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

While I admire Sri Nityananda Misra's patience, the thread is degrading into assumptions

and unfounded declarations.  Some of us are subjected to the barrage!

The response could be why don't we quit?    We are complaining first.

Some more care in writing, checking spellings and reducing assumptions may help.

Bijoy Misra 

classic value addition by Bijoy sir. what do you think nAgarAj sir? 😀

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 7:53 AM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 5:15:17 pm UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

 

आप जिस को terminal a deletion कहते हैं, मै मौखिकभाषान्तर्गत (लोप)सन्धि कहता हूँ। क्योँ कि वाक्योँ के बीच हि यह दिखाई देता है - जहाँ विराम न हो। यहाँ लोग उसी वाक्य  को ऐसे बोलते हैँ - ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राज इद्द ‌/‌ ऒन्द् ऊर्नल्लि,,, ओब्ब राजन् इद्द ।

आप इसे जो भी कहें, इसे भाषाविदों ने vowel deletion ही कहा है.    

पर syncope नहि। और हिन्दी जैसे सन्धि के बिना भी deletion नहि।

  

This is not syncope, but apocope. And Andronov (1982) has indeed used the term apocope for the dropping of final vowels in Kannada. 

 

Also: Bright (1958) uses the term apocope in An Outline of Colloquial Kannada. Verma (1989) also uses the term apocope in Modern Linguistics. His example is from Kannada: nənnə 'my' + pustkə 'book' → nənpustkə. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Vidwan Sri Vishvas, I was typing my response while you were keying in yours. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Prof Nagaraj,

The thread can continue, the problem is bigger than confined to Kannada.

but it needs scholarly handling and analysis.

I have requested this before.  Many just drop sentences (some grammar check would help).

Respecting spellings in languages is a sign of scholarship.

You are the moderator, possibly you represent the general voice.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

They are not discussing spellings , Prof. Misra. They are discussing pronunciation. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncope_(phonology)

In phonology, syncope (/ˈsɪŋkəpi/; from Ancient Greek: συγκοπή, romanized: sunkopḗ, lit. 'cutting up') is the loss of one or more sounds from the interior of a word, especially the loss of an unstressed vowel. It is found in both synchronic and diachronic analyses of languages. Its opposite, whereby sounds are added, is epenthesis.

(emphasis mine)

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Interesting thing about study of languages and cultures is that native speaker might not have paid attention to some of the features of his language / culture. When observed and pointed out by an analyst, native or outsider, he may get surprised that he did not notice that earlier in his own language/culture which is in fact a part of him. I think it was Robert A Hall, a descriptive linguist who compared native speaker's observation of his language to one's observation of one's breath. It does not usually happen unless intentionally and attentively done. 

In Kannada, dropping of the vowel in the middle of a word does happen. 

When we say dropping, we are keeping an original 'norm' in mind. Only if there is a vowel as original, we can talk of a dropping. 

malugu=to sleep in Kannada has a form malgu too.Which is 'right', which is 'wrong' here ? Neither. But Which is 'original' ? malugu. Only because malugu is original, there is dropping being inferred in malgu. 

This is a synchronic study. 

A diachronic/historical analyst might say that 'u' in the middle itself was not there in the 'original' proto-Dravidian, (of course, reconstructed) root. 

But the diachronic analyst can not decide the 'right' or 'wrong' on this basis. His/her reconstructed form has only an analytical value. 

Same is the situation with regard to the difference between the classical and colloquial versions of a language. 

aṭula = that way, is found in classical Telugu. 

aṭla, aṭlā, gaṭla etc. are found in colloquial dialects. 

For a colloquial speaker, aṭula is 'wrong' asādhu . 

For a classical Telugu writer, aṭla, aṭlā, gaṭla are 'wrong'. He /she calls them grāmya, lakṣaṇaviruddha and asādhu. 

Languages like Telugu and Kannada, in their actual usage predominantly have ajanta words. As such, syllabic cut for these languages is done as  vowel ending. All syllables in a word are cut as ending in vowels. 

In Kannada, even in malgu , the syllabic cut is done as ma-lgu. In Telugu, even in aṭla, aṭlā, gaṭla syllabic cut is done as a-ṭla, a-ṭlā, ga-ṭla. 

As such, vowel 'dropped' forms are considered to be 'wrong' compared to the vowel containing forms. But such vowel 'dropping' is found across the dialects synchronically and diachronically, not as a general rule applying to all the words of the language, but as 'exceptions' applicable to some specific cases. 

That is probably the reason why for a native speaker of these languages , 'vowel dropping' in their languages comes as news. 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 6:06:33 pm UTC+5:30 Nagaraj Paturi wrote:spect in this thread. 

Strength of one of the correspondents is that the language being discussed is his mother tongue. 

I may be wrong here, but I think Vishvas Vasuki's mother tongue is Tamil. I read somewhere that he speaks the Iyengar Tamil/Hebbar Tamil dialect of Tamil. He can best confirm this and I am happy to correct myself.

 

Strength of the other correspondent is that he is trying to rely on professional published material on the language that is not his mother tongue. 

To clarify, Prof. Paturi, I am not trying to rely on professional published material, rather I am relying on published material. And the reliance is not blind, the published material confirms my own observations based on my exposure to spoken/colloquial Kannada. Yes, I would not have had the confidence without the published material. 

 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 7:33 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting thing about study of languages and cultures is that native speaker might not have paid attention to some of the features of his language / culture. When observed and pointed out by an analyst, native or outsider, he may get surprised that he did not notice that earlier in his own language/culture which is in fact a part of him. I think it was Robert A Hall, a descriptive linguist who compared native speaker's observation of his language to one's observation of one's breath. It does not usually happen unless intentionally and attentively done. 

…

That is probably the reason why for a native speaker of these languages , 'vowel dropping' in their languages comes as news. 

Not sure how much that holds. Rather - in cases of linguistic diglossia, when some outsider refers to one's language, the native speaker automatically assumes that he's referring to the "standard form" (the written form in kannaDa), rather than one or many of the many spoken dialects. So, "यर्वाण" and "तर्वाण" would not even come to mind in place of "यद् वा न" or "तद् वा न".

 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 8:45 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 6:06:33 pm UTC+5:30 Nagaraj Paturi wrote:spect in this thread. 

Strength of one of the correspondents is that the language being discussed is his mother tongue. 

I may be wrong here, but I think Vishvas Vasuki's mother tongue is Tamil. I read somewhere that he speaks the Iyengar Tamil/Hebbar Tamil dialect of Tamil. He can best confirm this and I am happy to correct myself.

The concept of having a single mother tongue does not apply to me. My mother spoke two tongues daily since I was in her garbha, as did her mother, as did her mother etc.. going back to as far as we can recall (likely at least to rAmAnuja days/ 900 years).

[Bijoy Misra]

Nagarajji,

As I said, it is a larger issue of utterance of vowels.  It need not be cultural.

But a good discussion would need a lot more civility and careful use of words.

Regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Prof. Misra, 

As I already said, currently I don't see any civility issue. For a professional phonologist , it may at the most sound nonprofessional. 

If you have a more professional trained phonologist's point to make about the point, you are welcome.

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[Bijoy Misra]

I wished, but I refrained.  .

As I said it is likely a neurological issue of vowel formation in economization than a cultural adaptation.

The issue is larger than Kannada.

Sorry for my meekness in not participating.

Regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

You are right, Prof. Misra.

Both in Cultural Anthropology and Linguistics, we have Cultural Universal aspects and culture-specific aspects universal speech aspects and language aspects in the same cultural /linguistic phenomenon. 

You might enjoy reading this article from the area of your interest :

How Phonological Structures Can Be Culturally Selected for Learnability

by

Pierre-Yves Oudeyer Sony CSL Paris, France   

http://www.pyoudeyer.com/oudeyerAdaptiveBehavior.pdf

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Both in Cultural Anthropology and Linguistics, we have Cultural Universal aspects and culture-specific aspects universal speech aspects and language specific aspects in the same cultural /linguistic phenomenon. 

[Bijoy Misra]

Thank you, Nagarajji. Other literature exists.

It is my handicap of not handling the slangs very well.

Also what I consider "slang" may be the "accepted vocabulary" somewhere else..

Regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

For example, economy as motivation for phonological, semantic and sayntactic changes across the dialects of a language across space and time is universal. 

But through which phonological, semantic or syntactic changes that is achieved in a given language, varies from language to language. 

Middle of the word vowel dropping could be happening for the economy of time, faster pronunciation in a certain language. 

But in some other language , the same is achieved through some other mechanism. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Now we are talking about neurology!

Regards,

Bm

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[Ramesh Rao]

Nagaraj avare,

Thanks for the wonderful theoretical framework for explaining the usages -- formal, colloquial, regional, etc.

For example, "summaniru Subbu," has become "sumkir subbu" -- in some of the Kannada film dialogues, etc.

The influence of Urdu/Persian has also changed Kannada, I believe, and "jatka-ssabi Kannada" (a kind of Pidgin-Kannada, you may say) was well-known in the days when I was growing up in Bengaluru and Mysuru.

Ramesh

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[Prabhu]

Ramesh avare,

Hilarious! 

This reminded me of the following lines I wrote a couple of years ago as a "Kailasam impression"

“ಬೆಳಗ್ಗೆ breakfastoo ಬಾಯ್ಲ್ ಬಡಕೊಳ್ದೇ 

ಬಿಸ್ಲಲ್ ಬೀದ್ ಬೀದಿಲಲ್ದು ಬಂದ್ರೇ, ಬಾಳೂ....ಬಡಸೋದಿದ್ನೇ!

ಬಿಸೀಂದ್ರೆ ಬಿಸೀ... ಭೆಂಧ್ಹೋಗ್ತಾಯಿಧ್ಯಲ್ಲಾ ಭಾಳೂ!

ಇದರ್ದೇನ್ ತಾಪ್ಮಾನಾ! ಏನ್ temprachroo!

ಘನ ಧ್ರವಾನಿಲಾ ವಸ್ಥೆಗ್ಳನ್ನೂ ಮೀರಿ ಥುರಿಯಾವಸ್ಥೇ...ಥುರಿಯಾವಸ್ಥೇಲಿದೇ!

ಅರ್ಥಾತ್ plasma state of matterroo ಭಾಳೂ... ಈ ಪಿಂಡಾ!!”

"beLagge breakfastoo baaylbadakOLdE

bislal beedbeedilaldu bandrE baaLoo.... baDsOdidnE!

bisIndre bisI.... bhendhOgtaayidyallaa bhaaLoo!

idardEn taapmaanaa! En temprechroo!

ghana dravaanilaa vasthegLannoo mIri thuriyaavasthE...thuriyaavasthElidE!

arthaat plasma state of matteroo bhALoo.... ee pinDaa!! "

The  type of talk in, say "banDavALvillada baDAyi ಬಂಡ್ವಾಳ್ವಿಲ್ಲದ ಬಡಾಯಿ",  is fast disappearing, I think.

As you probably experienced too, this Old Mysore Kannada was fairly common as I grew up.

Prabhu

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Someone was proposing for some weekend humour on BVP to relax. Sri Prabhu-ji's brought that much needed comic relief.

However, 

> "summaniru Subbu," has become "sumkir subbu" -- in some of the Kannada film dialogues, etc.

---- sumkir Subbu is not a transformation of summaniru Subbu. sumkir Subbu seems to be from Summage/summake +ir(u). summage/summake is found in some dialects like Raichur dialect. 

Using dialects for paatrochita sambhaashaNa (I would call it  linguistic realism) advised by Bharata is fine. But film people quite often do it for humour. That stereotypes certain dialects and the regions and communities that speak it. Nowadays some regions and communities are protesting such stereotyping. 

During the movement for a separate Telangana, stereotyping Telangana dialect in films was also cited as one of the reasons for discontentment with the united Andhra Pradesh. 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vasukiji,

On 29 August you said --

संवृतोच्चारणे मुखविवरः सङ्कुचिततरो भवति

My question is how much?

Secondly shape of the mouth or the space in the mouth is to my knowledge बाह्य प्रयत्न.  I had asked change in अभ्यन्तर प्रयत्न.

With regards

Achyut Karve 

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[Harissh Swaminathan]

The saMvrta or vivrta refers to the opening of the घोषतन्त्री and therefore is the आभ्यन्तरप्रयत्नः 

The बाह्यप्रयत्न refers to the prayatna after the air has left the घोषतन्त्री 

For all svaras the आभ्यन्तरप्रयत्नः is विवृत while the ह्रस्व अकार has 2 prayatnas

While ucchaarana the prayatna is संवृत 

The baahyaprayatna for the svaraas are उदात्तोनुदात्तस्स्वरितश्चेति

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

https://deejayvaidya.tumblr.com/post/42275194921/sanskrit-pronunciation-podcast-1-introduction by shrI dhananjaya is valuable here (esp the comparison accross languages towards the end, though it does not include what I call the tamiL saMvRta a). For practical purposes prayatna-s can only be understood by such comparison.

Fact of the matter is that space near the ghoSha-tantrI is not independent of space in the mouth cavity.

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[L Srinivas]

I have seen niggardliness wrt vowels in Karnataka Iyengars' Tamil speech too. While speaking Tamil, they would say 'for how would I know',  namkēn teriyum? which is strictly neither Kannada nor Tamil but it does sycopate the medial and last vowel in namkēn after the Kannada fashion. I remember being asked in the morning 'Seenivaasa, unkēn abhyāsa, coffee-ya tea-ya'?. The word 'abhyāsa' is not used in Tamil conversationally in such contexts. The most confusing aspect of these sentences for a Tamil speaker is that the word 'ēnu' meaning 'what' in Kannada is syncopated to 'ēn' conversationally but 'ēn' in Tamil means 'why', not 'what.

I have heard these syncopations in Tamil in Kolar, Hassan, Mysore and Mandya. It's clearly Kannada-influenced.

Hope this helps,

Srini

On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 11:58:51 AM UTC-4 Nityanand Misra wrote:

Vishvas Vasuki wrote in a thread on this list (red highlighting mine) “On the other hand, if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify, given the high likelihood of error.”

There are three things Vishvas Vasuki is extremely good at (1) misunderstanding a statement (2) misrepresenting the same (3) using abusive/offensive words (think about the reaction if a North Indian had used a word like southie, Madrasi, etc. on this list: the worth northie is in the same category). Question to list owner/Prof. Paturi: do you approve the use of the word northie for an ethnic North Indian like me on this list?

Anyway, let us not digress. I do not care if Vishvas Vasuki abuses me. I have been called a Hindu degenerate by him on Twitter in the past (though God only knows why he still retweets me now and then despite that). But given that Vishvas Vasuki misunderstood and misrepresented my position, this thread is essential.

Firstly the clarification: I never made up even a single example of schwa deletion in Kannada/SI languages. If Vishvas Vasuki can misrepresent the position of Shatavadhani R. Ganesh, who am I?

Anyway, it is a known fact that vowel syncope (of which schwa syncope is a subset) happens in spoken/colloquial Kannada. This has been attested in academic publications by Kannada, Indian, and foreign linguists for more than sixty years. Here are eleven references. If Vishvas Vasuki, whose mother tongue is probably Tamil (or a dialect of Tamil), does not know about the language spoken in his own state of residence, it is not my problem. If he thinks all these eleven publications are wrong, he should point me to a reliable source which proves them to be wrong. If he cannot, he should read more about Kannada before talking [and before misrepresenting me].

[1958] Bright

Bright, William (1958). An Outline of Colloquial Kannada.
Unfortunately I do not have a digital copy of this work (members are requested to share if they have one). The book has several sections on [vowel] syncope in Kannada including Syncope (2.4.1), Syncope before pause (2.4.2), Syncope before vowel or /h/ (2.4.3), Syncope before consonants (2.4.4) and Antepenultimate syncope 2.4.5.

[1982] Andronov

“In colloquial Kannada, words are very often shortened by dropping vowels either at the end (apocope) or from the middle (syncope) , e.g. ... ”

Mikhail Sergeevich Andronov (1982). The Kannada Language. p. 25.

[1983] Schiffman

Note: Ellipsis in red mine.

“1.3.6. Vowel deletion/reduction. Various writers (e.g., Ramanujan 1967; Bright 1970) have pointed out that the most noticeable difference between SK [=Spoken Kannada] and LK [=Literary Kannada] is the deletion or extreme reduction of short vowels in SK when they follow the first syllable of a word. For example, vowel deletion (and consonant cluster reduction; see 1.3.7) operates on an LK sentence as follows:

LK ondu uurinalli obba raaja idda → SK ond uurnall ob raaja idda ‘in a town there was a king’
In general, most short vowels following the first syllable of a word are deleted; or, if the deletion would lead to the formation of unacceptable consonant clusters (generally three or more consonants together, with a few exceptions), the vowels are reduced to an extremely short sound. In the case of reduction rather than deletion, it is extremely difficult to state a general rule specifying which vowels in a sequence are deleted entirely and which are reduced. In case of doubt, the student is advised to use full or reduced vowels rather than deleting them completely.”
—Schiffman, Harold (1983). A Reference Grammar of Spoken Kannada. University of Washington Press, pp. 19-20.
Link: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/kannada/grammar/KaGram1.pdf

[1989] Verma

Note: Correction in red mine

“Syncope is the elimination of medial vowels or consonants.
Examples
Hindi:       asal + i: → əsli:  ‘real’
Kannada: hɛsər[u]  ‘name’ → hɛsr[u]

                a:ḷigɛ ‘to the servant’ → a:ḷgɛ

(when these words are followed by a pause)
Shivendra Kishore Verma (1989). Modern Linguistics: An Introduction. ISBN 9780195622621. Oxford University Press. p. 71.

[1990] Sridhar

Sridhar, S.N. (1990) Kannada (Descriptive Grammars Series). ISBN 9780415003179. London: Routledge.

I do not have this book. But as I learn from several publications I referred to, including Hock (2016), the book discusses vowel syncope in Kannada. The book is written by a linguist of Indian origin (most likely of South Indian origin): https://iaac.us/professor-s-n-sridhar/

[1999] Author(s) unkknown

“2.2 In tadbhava borrowings there are several types of phonological changes in the lexemes. These changes are illustrated below.
1 . Vowel syncope: Vowels are dropped in medial syllables if they are fringed by single consonants: 
18. guruguñji (DED 1549) → gurguñji ‘seed of Arbus precatorious/Crab's eye’

19. takkaḍi (DED 2437) →  takḍi ‘a balance’

Journal of the Karnatak University. Humanities. Volume 42. p. 85.

[2001] Bhat

“(ii) Syncope: This change involves the loss of a word-medial sound. It can be exemplified with the help of the change of trisyllabic words into disyllabic ones through the elision of the second vowel, which has taken place in the Mysore dialect of Kannada.

(3) 

Gloss / Standard Mysore / Kannada Kannada

horse / kudure / kudre

arecanut / aḍike / aḍke

door ba:gilu / ba:glu

mustard / sa:sive / sa:sve

inside / oḷage / oḷge

shop / angaḍi / angḍi”

D. N. Shankara Bhat (2001). Sound Change. ISBN 9788120817661. Motilal Banarsidass Publishers. p. 66.

Link: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Sound_Change/rcAzHKoV1Q0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA66

[2003] Hammann
“The retroflex and the non-retroflex in Kannada are often only adjacent after deletion of an intermediate vowel. This process of vowel deletion and another one of vowel reduction, also observable in the data in (55) are not discussed here.”
—Silke Hamann (2003). The Phonetics and Phonology of Retroflexes. Utrecht University Repository. (Dissertation). p. 120.
Link: https://www.lotpublications.nl/Documents/075_fulltext.pdf

[2009] Barnes

“Durational curtailment of non-initial syllables, however, is demonstrated in the frequent patterns of syncope of non-initial vowels in various patterns throughout the histories of various Dravidian languages, e.g., Kannada (Schiffman 1983), Kurux (Pfeiffer 1972; Gordon 1976) and Malto (Gordon 1976).” 

Jonathan Barnes. Positional Neutralization in Phonetics and Phonology. Mouton de Gruyter. ISBN 9783110197617, p.29. 

Link: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Strength_and_Weakness_at_the_Interface/TFl2uERWQFoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA29

[2014] Manjula and Sharma
“  In Kannada, deletion of most short vowels following the first syllable of a word generally takes place. However, if the deletion would lead to the formation of an unacceptable consonant cluster, the vowels are reduced to an extremely short sound.”
—Manjula, R. and Sharma, Naresh. Motor Speech Disorders in Languages of the Indian Subcontinent: Some Perspectives from Hindi and Kannada. In Motor Speech Disorders: A Cross-Language Perspective (2014), ISBN 9781783092321, p. 213 (chapter pp. 207-221).
Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Apo3BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA213

[2015] Steever

Note: sic erat scriptum in red mine

“One of the most common phonological processes in spoken Kannada is the syncope of a short vowel the a second syllable of words of three or more syllables, so that literary hesaru ‘name’ becomes hesru ‘id.’, nanage ‘to me’ becomes nange ‘id.’, kelasa ‘work, job’ becomes kelsa  ‘id.’, ādare 'if one becomes becomes [sic] ādre ‘id.’. Bright (1958) uses this process as an indirect argument for the existence of prefixes in Kannada. The syncopated, allegro pronunciation of the verb prakaṭisu ‘publish’ is prakaṭsu, which implies the analysis /pra+kaṭisu/ with an internal boundary, instead of the ungrammatical *prakṭisu which would come from a form without an internal boundary. Sridhar (1990) gives additional, morphological evidence to support the existence of prefixes in the language.”

—Sanford B. Steever (2015). The Dravidian Languages. ISBN 9781136911644. Routledge. p. 131.

[2016] Hock

Note: Colour highlighting mine

“3.3.3.2. Syncope in Telugu and other Dravidian languages
As noted in 3.3.7.1.2, Mohanan draws on vowel loss to determine Malayalam stress placement (but see Terzenbach 2011). Vowel syncope is also found in Kannada (Sridhar 1990: § 3.4.4.1.2). See also Kissock & Reiss 2003 for Koya, with syncope very similar to Telugu.
Telugu syncope has received greater attention. As in Koya, but unlike Malayalam and Kannada, it is an EXTERNAL-sandhi process, affecting final vowels before word or compound boundary. The first publication to account for the phonology of Telugu syncope is Kelley 1963; see also Wilkinson 1974a. Krishnamurti (1957) observes that syncope takes place only if the flanking consonants are homorganic, with the proviso that all coronals are homorganic. Kissock & Reiss (2003) observe that syncope also takes place before word-initial vowel and that, contrary to Krishnamurti, it also takes place if the flanking consonants are not homorganic (as in nellūru biyyam —> nellūrbiyyam ‘Nellore rice’).”
Hans Henrich Hock (2016). The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide. ISBN 9783110423303. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. p. 394
Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=PSFBDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA394

--

Nityānanda Miśra

[Achyut Karve]

If all vowel corruptions are together called संवृत corruptions is not allowing the sutra अ अ to be interpreted as vivruta अ becomes samvruta self defeating, further allowing other corruptions to enter in?  

While discussing the sutra अअ in the Mahabhashya Patanjali says that it could mean change in swaras (udata anudata too?).  

Later grammarians need to explain why the sutra must be interpreted as change from vivruta to samvruta to the exclusion of other possibilities.

Further from my point of view that प्रयत्न which changes when letters change is बाह्य प्रयत्न and that which does not change when letters change is अभ्यंतर प्रयत्न.  Ghosh yantra surely is बाह्य प्रयत्न while samvruta and vivruta are अभ्यंतर प्रयत्न.  

When a person speaks how is it that he can selectively phonate अ samvruta and not the other vowels?  

A letter (vowel) by itself cannot be samvruta or vivruta.  It depends on with what अभ्यंतर प्रयत्न he or she is phonating.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 1:42 PM Harissh Swaminathan <hari.ya...@gmail.com> wrote:

The saMvrta or vivrta refers to the opening of the घोषतन्त्री and therefore is the आभ्यन्तरप्रयत्नः 

The बाह्यप्रयत्न refers to the prayatna after the air has left the घोषतन्त्री 

Just wanted to clarify - this view is incorrect.

मुखस्थ-प्रयत्न आभ्यन्तरः। 

ततो बहिः घोषतन्त्रीपरिसरे यथा - बाह्यप्रयत्नः। 

यथा -

उदात्तानुदात्तस्वरितता।

अनुनासिकता।

 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 5:25 PM L Srinivas <lns2...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have seen niggardliness wrt vowels in Karnataka Iyengars' Tamil speech too. While speaking Tamil, they would say 'for how would I know',  namkēn teriyum?

Never heard this. Instead: namk enn (rather than namkēn) teriyum?

enn from enna (meaning "what?")

Suspect that below analysis, being based on incorrect data, is worth discarding.

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 7:54 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

If all vowel corruptions are together called संवृत corruptions is not allowing the sutra अ अ to be interpreted as vivruta अ becomes samvruta self defeating, further allowing other corruptions to enter in?  

Could not understand the above.

Further from my point of view that प्रयत्न which changes when letters change is बाह्य प्रयत्न and that which does not change when letters change is अभ्यंतर प्रयत्न. 

Not sure what you mean by the above - but see the interpretation I like sent in a separate mail.

 

Ghosh yantra surely is बाह्य प्रयत्न while samvruta and vivruta are अभ्यंतर प्रयत्न.  

Agreed if by ghoSh yantra you mean vocal chords (ghoSha-tantrI by harIsh).

 

When a person speaks how is it that he can selectively phonate अ samvruta and not the other vowels?  

For all other vowels, either the forepart of the tongue or lips is active - thereby contraining/ fixing mouth cavity, so that mouth-cavity-differentiation (saMvRta / vivRta) makes no sense.

 

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[Srinivasakrishnan ln]

You can look up Arvind Iyengar's studies on Hebbar Tamil. There was an earlier study by Ramanujan that he cites. You can also search for 'Hebbar Tamil' on the Internet. You can hear no end of "vand koṇḍ" "pōy koṇḍ"  "iṭ koṇḍ" etc.

Last but not least, I have a good ear and I have been hearing this for the last 50 years 😀

Srini

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[Ramesh Rao]

Also the Sanketis and their use of Tamil, Kannada.

Ramesh

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[Ramesh Rao]

On the reverse,  some in my family who settled down in the Salem area of Tamil Nadu have their own special use of Kannada. 

Ramesh

[Radhakrishna Warrier]

“If all vowel corruptions are together called संवृत corruptions is not allowing the sutra अ अ to be interpreted as vivruta अ becomes samvruta self defeating, further allowing other corruptions to enter in?“  

I don’t think that saṃvṛta pronunciation is a corruption.  It is standard pronunciation in Malayalam and Tamil. 

The final /ŭ/ in the word nāḍŭ (written nāṭŭ – നാടു് = country) is called by grammarians as saṃvṛta ukāram in Malayalam and kuṯṯiyal (written kuṟṟiyal) ukaram in Tamil. This is a schwa that has evolved from the hrasva (short) /u/. The candrakkala, the halant symbol that looks like a crescent moon, is written over the hrasva ‘u’ ligature to show that the hrasva ‘u’ has become a saṃvṛta ukāram (ടു്).  In Tamil, the kuṯṯiyal ukaram is not shown in modern writing. 

In the word nāṭṭukāran (നാട്ടുകാരൻ = fellow countryman) the u within the word is pronounced as a schwa, not as a full hrasva u.  But this is not shown in writing.  The pronunciation of this schwa is different from the word-final saṃvṛta ukāram such as in nāḍŭ. I understand that Kodagu (the language of Kodagu area, or Coorg) has these two kinds of schwas, the word final saṃvṛta ukāram and the schwa within words. 

---

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 7:05 AM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Vowel syncope in Kannada

 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 3:47 AM Srinivasakrishnan ln <lns2...@gmail.com> wrote:

You can look up Arvind Iyengar's studies on Hebbar Tamil.

The australian guy I presume? Makes slight transliteration errors.

 

There was an earlier study by Ramanujan that he cites. You can also search for 'Hebbar Tamil' on the Internet. You can hear no end of "vand koṇḍ" "pōy koṇḍ"  "iṭ koṇḍ" etc.

 

vand-gyaṇḍ pō-kyaṇḍ 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 7:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 The pronunciation of this schwa is different from the word-final saṃvṛta ukāram such as in nāḍŭ. I understand that Kodagu (the language of Kodagu area, or Coorg)

koḍava ‌/ koḍava-takka 

 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

bcc: rAmapriyan who might be interested.

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 4:49 AM Ramesh Rao <ramesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also the Sanketis and their use of Tamil, Kannada.

The sanketi language (of both kaushika and beTTadapura types), aShTagrAma iyer tamiL, br̥haccaraṇa tamiL, the many KA iyengar varieties are to a great extant mutually intelligible.

Remarkably a gentleman has translated the entirety of DVG's kagga to sanketi - https://twitter.com/ShrikaanthK/status/1427024515490529288 . The saMvRta u (basically I'd say saMvRta a) may be seen in the below excerpt (marked by *) from https://twitter.com/search?q=DVG%20sanketi&src=typed_query&f=live :

ರಾಮನಡಿಯಿಟ್ಟ ನೆಲು ಭೀಮನುಸು*ರಿನ ಖಾತು*
ವ್ಯೋಮತಣ್ಣುಮು ಭಗೀರಥು ಕೊಳಂದ ಪುಳ
ಸೋಮನಾ ಪೆತ್ತ ಕಡ^ಲಂಟು* ಪಳೆತಲೆಹಳಿರ
ನಾಮ ಪುದುವ್ಹಾ^ಳಪ್ಡಿ ಮಂಕುತಿಮ್ಮ

 

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

On < अ अ to be interpreted as vivruta अ becomes samvruta self defeating  > :  

 

1.   Can we explore this statement in a short-focus , setting the boundary condition – logic :

        < IF vivruta is the opposite direction of samvruta (as involution in pronunciation), AND  vivruta ‘अ’ has known clear 18 varieties,

                     THEN what will be the voiced / unvoiced samvrutha अ images of the clear listed  18- ‘अ - clusters?:

 

Note: There cannot be a physiological  ‘anunasika’ option in ‘samvrutha’ pronunciation !

 

2. If <  saṃvṛta ukāram in Malayalam and kuṯṯiyal (written kuṟṟiyal) ukaram in Tamil. … ..  In Tamil, the kuṯṯiyal ukaram is not shown in modern writing. .. ..understand that Kodagu (the language of Kodagu area, or Coorg) has these two kinds of schwas, the word final saṃvṛta ukāram and the schwa within words. > :

   Here is a fit case demanding explanation  for  review of CURRENT  MODEL OF TEACHING  ‘Svara- Vyanjana- cluster of SAMSKRUTHAM ( leaving out Maheswara Sutra/ and starting with  local/ regional/ anglicised Varna-akshara – proximate words’.

 

‘Panini-Maheswara Sutras provided ‘bhashaa –shikshaa ’ as primary standard for All Brahmi language families: Daivee and Manushee .

 This is  the basis of   expanded ‘varna-akshara-maalaa’ sets by ‘Voice’ as taught in usage across languages of Brahmi origin at Bharath ( and largesse of South East Asia)  and critical part of foundational learning. Without this line of argument, it would be difficult to explain why many south Asian languages teach  one अ   with variant scripts and  articulation for semantics as specific language feature. In the context of India, one Phonemic sound has found its expression in several visual formats and  by context,  the articulation is firmed up. Check Newari for this  by voice and scripts. Script is not a limiting consideration; certainly  not the IPA convention or transliteration or current scripting models.

 

Logic:  The languages of the same land , where speakers  use the ‘SAME set and logic of varna-Akshara pronunciation (Shikshaa Codecs) ’  need to be taken as belonging to same ‘proto-stock’, which in this case is  primarily ‘Maanushee - Bhashaa’ part of Brahmi- Paninian Language /– Samskrutham. This anchor is ‘ Voice-Character –set = Varna-akshara- maalaa’. Historicty goes back to Pre-Panini,   through a few millennia of time line and dot-points connecting  ‘ Mahaveera- Gautama Buddha , all the way  up to Vyasa- Valmiki ( if Veda is not a preferred reference for some academicians ! )

 

The movement of language speaking community does not change the ‘ primary Varna-akshara- maalaa’ and ‘grammar’ of language. Vocabulary addition and osmosis from other languages as loan words, new words, corruptions in usage still stand by basic feature of language.

 

The osmosis of sounds from ‘Daivee – Chandas ’ part of Brahmi- Paninian Language /– Samskrutham (where codecs come from Praitshakhyas , mainly) is a social phenomenon. That mix up does not impact the language stanards.

 

Question:  What was the need –constraint- advantage  for  ‘Tamil, Malayalam …. Kodava…’ languages to adapt and live with a mixed bag of  phonemes related to < अ -as vivruta and  samvruta > ? Why these variations need to be explained as ‘defects / deviations’ taking out the Panini-and Prakrut grammar provisions which explains it natively ? Why  these variations are language wise significant as ‘ tonal’ variations impacting semantics ?  Why was a script symbol left out in tradition, when the ‘Brahmi-Chandas –teams devised elaborate symbols for sama-veda and  music tonals?

 

Last but not the least,  What would be current anchor to assert  ‘ Proper pronunciation of Maheswarasutras’ in Bhashaa and Chandas variety, without ‘ Prakritization, regionalization and Anglicization ?

 

This is where  Panini < अ अ> sutra leads to   Aha! Oho! Ah !  -   Expressions in relation to studies of ‘ Maheswara Sutra’.  

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:45 AM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

On < अ अ to be interpreted as vivruta अ becomes samvruta self defeating  > :  

 

 

Note: There cannot be a physiological  ‘anunasika’ option in ‘samvrutha’ pronunciation !

Wrt "physiologically articulation", अँ is as saMvRta as अ is in saMskRta - same mouth cavity configuration.

[Achyut Karve]

Does Panini allow nasalization of vowels?  Is there any sutra to that effect?

Why does nasalization of vowels take place?  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Achyut-ji,

If you think you know the answer to your question , you make it clear while questioning itself, by saying, 'I know the answer, but I am asking you to know your view.' 

If you do not know, you make that clear by saying, 'I want to know/learn from the Panini-experts of the group because I do not know. 

I am asking this to know/learn this because if I know/learn this , it will benefit me in the following way'. 

If you think you are guiding your correspondents or members of the list to a certain understanding through your questions, please give up that path. 

Both traditional vyakarana scholars and modern linguists get irked by these kind of questions. 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Most of my questions are yes or no questions.  For eg. the question 'Does Panini allow nasalization of vowels?  The answer would be either yes or no.  If yes I would like to know the sutra.  

Why are these questions relevant to me?  The reason is that in the Paniniya Shiksha the 18 अ, इ, and उ's have been derived by nasalization of vowels.  How far is this derivation Paninian is what I want to know.   

Further from my own study of the Maheshwar Sutras I find that nasalization takes place on account of either incorrect effort or weak effort.  While phonating non-anunasikas it is necessary that the passage of the air through the nose is blocked while articulating such letters. Based on my study of the Maheshwar Sutras I am trying to find out the inconsistencies (w.r.t. Panini) that have crept in the tradition.

I have no intention of irritating scholars.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

There are scholars who spent years in the study of Vyakarana Shaastra fortified with the study of other shaastras that are essential for that study, on this list. 

You would do better to your limitations in that field and obediently seek guidance from those who are professionals in that. 

That saves a lot of reinventing the wheel for you and avoids perplexed responses from both the learned and lay audience. 

Thanks for your understanding. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

missed word/phrase:

You would do better to be aware of your limitations in that field and obediently seek guidance from those who are professionals in that. 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 9:40 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 1:42 PM Harissh Swaminathan <hari.ya...@gmail.com> wrote:

The saMvrta or vivrta refers to the opening of the घोषतन्त्री and therefore is the आभ्यन्तरप्रयत्नः 

The बाह्यप्रयत्न refers to the prayatna after the air has left the घोषतन्त्री 

Just wanted to clarify - this view is incorrect.

मुखस्थ-प्रयत्न आभ्यन्तरः। 

ततो बहिः घोषतन्त्रीपरिसरे यथा - बाह्यप्रयत्नः। 

यथा -

उदात्तानुदात्तस्वरितता।

अनुनासिकता। 

Self correction: "The बाह्यप्रयत्न refers to the prayatna after the air has left the घोषतन्त्री " is not entirely wrong.

Even vAsu says: The _abhyantara_ _prayatna_ is the mode of articulation preparatory to the utterance of the sound, the _båhya_-_prayatna_ is the mode of articulation at the close of the utterance of the sound.

So, both laxaNas (above and the one I noted) are correct!

Indeed, we open the mouth and place the articulator (tongue/ lip) BEFORE producing the sound.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 2:23 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does Panini allow nasalization of vowels?  Is there any sutra to that effect?

Plenty of veda-specific (eg https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.3/8.3.1/ ) and grammar-instruction-specific examples.  Non pANinian grammars (prAtishAkhya-s) allow more. Restricting oneself to laukika bhASha, a couple of sUtra-s as examples - https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.3/8.3.7/ https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.57/ .

 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

According to Patanjali आगम् is also क्लिष्ट or अक्लिष्ट.  What is wrong if I question.  

Instead of arguing it would be in the interest of the subject to answer as qualified scholars.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

>  What is wrong if I question? 

You mean to say , what is wrong if I try to know/learn ?

I am not arguing with you. There is no arguable position that you took nor am I into any conversation with you about the topics ? that you brought into the conversation between two other members. 

Your spellings like आगम् themselves show that you need to be obedient while trying to talk scholars who studied Patanjali for life. 

Just in a lighter vein,

Let me try to fake a Tabla question,

Why should there be  only Dhin , Naa, Na, Tin be played at Chat ?

Perplexing ?

Please try to empathise with Vyakarana scholars regarding what happens to them from your use of technical terms. 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 9:23 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 2:23 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does Panini allow nasalization of vowels?  Is there any sutra to that effect?

Plenty of veda-specific (eg https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.3/8.3.1/ )

ऊर्ध्वं दृश्यमानस् सङ्केतो न साधुः। https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/6.1/6.1.126/ इत्यादयस् तु वर्तन्ते।

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

On < Wrt "physiologically articulation", अँ is as saMvRta as अ is in saMskRta - same mouth cavity configuration. >  :

 

Clarification Needed : Is there any  difference of opinion in this statement- position made below before proceeding further ?  

 

                   

 In other words,

 

  if logic is ‘yes’, then both are ‘articulation/ ucchaarana’- then each mode has its physiological attributes, actions and identities.

 

 if logic is ‘no’, then each is  different, unique- as travellers in opposite directions, with unique physiological attributes, actions and identities.

 

In ‘no- case, there is the entire validation to be revisited and explored as  ‘ vak-yoga’ practice instructions, anchored to upanishadic statement: ‘yato vacho nivartante..’- which is explored in neuro-science as ‘brain signal phase of thought-articualtion’: the phonological prime memory of sounds with universal grammar in operation ; and /or traditional tantra as layers pushing ‘ mantra-moola to manas through ‘ naada’.

 

There are allied disciplines of samgeeta, vaadya [ music and instruments; damaru being one of them ] which corroborate the ‘no-logic’ line.

 

Therefore, in ‘bhashaa’ usage,  what needs to be the guidance to  stand by ‘Shishta-prayoga/ Panineeya-pratijnaa’ ? Popular usage? Or Shaastra?

 

‘Samvruta and Vivruta’- both are ‘ucchaarana’ in Panini Sutra by instruction as (अ अ ) -  with different physiological modes of articulation.

The reckoning is by ‘hearing the sound’. The context is ‘Vyakarana is guidance to generate an articulate, processed word to communicate an intended meaning ( vivakshitaartha –vachakah shabdah). 

‘Vyakarana- sutra -prakriyaa for ‘pada-nirmiti’ - sambhashana use is different from ‘Vedanta –Prakriyaa- upaasanaa-sutra needed for ‘(tat-)pada-moola - gati’. Due to this,  ‘samvruta and vivruta’ - anushaasana needs to  be understood in the right context.    

 

Regards

 

BVK Sastry

 

 

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ???????? ???????? (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sent: 01 September 2021 09:30
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Vowel syncope in Kannada

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 9:23 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 August, 2021 at 7:33:01 pm UTC+5:30 Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

Interesting thing about study of languages and cultures is that native speaker might not have paid attention to some of the features of his language / culture. When observed and pointed out by an analyst, native or outsider, he may get surprised that he did not notice that earlier in his own language/culture which is in fact a part of him. I think it was Robert A Hall, a descriptive linguist who compared native speaker's observation of his language to one's observation of one's breath. It does not usually happen unless intentionally and attentively done. 

Thank you, Prof. Paturi, for your insightful remarks. I have included them in an article, which is mostly based on my initial post on this thread. Sharing the link to the article: 

https://medium.com/@nmisra/vowel-deletion-in-spoken-kannada-293d39339f8c 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks for sharing, AadaraNIya Nityanand-ji. 🙏

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