Pronunciation of राम , कृष्ण

[RaviKishore Annadanam]

नमस्ते

Sorry, if this question has already been discussed, however I could not find how to search this in our group for older posts.

My question:

Why is that some people pronounce the words like राम  as राम् , कृष्ण as कृष्ण् ? Is this the correct pronunciation?

Is this pronunciation same in Sanskrit and Hindi for the word राम and कृष्ण?

धन्यवाद,

अन्नदानम् रविकिशोर्

[Nagaraj Paturi]

It is well known that राम , कृष्ण are in the form of रामः ,  कृष्णः and they are considered to be अकारांत शब्दाः and not as हलंंत शब्दाः.

If a Hindi speaker while speaking Hindi pronounces राम  as राम् , there is nothing wrong, since that is the way it is in Hindi. 

But if a speaker of Hindi or any other north Indian language, while speaking Sanskrit, pronounces हे राम as हे राम् , that can be considered as a mistake committed due to mother tongue influence. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[jhakgirish]

Dear Professor Paturi

I  agree with you on this point.I know sometime back Prof.Jaymant Misra tried to practise and propagate this pronunciation such as घट  as ghata but he could not get success.Pronunciation varies from area to area due to various factors.Prof.Macdonnel has also pointed it out in his Vedic Grammar for students.Almost Sanskritists all over the World write the word Sanskrit without  a at the end which is also strange.l fail to understand when this error entered in North India.Does it indicate a might have been of two types:1.Vivrita and 2.Samvrita.

Panini formulates the rule एङि पर रूपम्.but त्रयो अस्य पादा-here this rule does not apply.I would like to request the Paninians to think it over beyond the bounds of Panini.Panini's rule अअ is explained that Phonetically अ is Samvrita  but Phonologically it is assumed ViVrit for his operational convenience in अकःसवर्णे दीर्घः,etc.

I had thought some years back to think it over going to the deep levels but at present could not do due to my engagement in another project.

I am not sure whether my views and proposals may be conducive to Indian Shastri tradition.

Pranamami.

Girish. K. Jha

Retd.University Professor

Dept of Sanskrit

Patna Univ. Patna

Residence: Kolkata

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

It is strange that राम is written without a at the end. Without a at the end  shouldn't it be written as राम् in Devanagari? Sanskrit is known to be pronounced as written. रामः is Sanskrit word declined word and also राम is a declined form from the noun  राम in the vocative. And both differ in meaning and why should there be any confusion between Hindi and Sanskrit? The question was about pronouncing it without a at the end in Hindi only and it follows the rule of pronunciation for Hindi words. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Shashi Joshi]

It is similar to the issue of pronouncing गणेश as गणेशा or शिव as शिवा, कृष्ण as कृष्णा in southern parts.

But it is corrected when a word follows these in a samAsa. E.g. गणेशवन्दना शिवसूत्र कृष्णलीला

It is the vowel at the end issue.

In Hindi, like English and many other languages, the last short vowel 'a' is clipped.

In South, the last short vowel 'a' is elongated.

This is indeed how different languages are formed, along with other changes in pronunciation.

English IAST contributed to this as well. Śrī was written as Sri by ordinary typewriters or folks, and then श्री became pronounced as स्री

And many more.

Thanks,
Shashi

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The issue is between halant(a) and ajant(a) pronunciation while reciting Sanskrit verses. 

The thread initiator's observation seems to be about pronouncing Sanskrit verse-lines such as 

सर्व मंगल मांगल्ये

as

सर्व् मंगल् मांगल्ये 

It is indeed observed in the pronunciation of Sanskrit verses in Hindi movies , Hindi serials etc. 

Sharing an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL1jo3M8YSI

[Srivatsa B R]

The word final vowel elongation process is not found in southern parts of India as mentioned earlier. A short vowel is not elongated and pronounced as a long vowel as illustrated with examples. Instead, the vowel is pronounced as it is.

with regards,

Shrivatsa

Srivatsa B R

Senior Linguist & Faculty (English) - ACTS

Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC)

'Knowledge Park', # 1, Old Madras Road, Baiyappanahalli, Near Baiyappanahalli Metro Station,

Bengaluru - 560 038

Karnataka, India

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:24 AM Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Hnbhat B.R.]

I am also South Indian and I bave never heard short and long vowels changed as mentioned earlier. But Sanskrit songs containing short vowels are sometimes elongated by well-known singers northern or Southern carnatic singers to adjust the music. In Hindi speakers, the examples cited by thread initiator is pronounced as if they are halanta-s. My teacher had said the 'a' pronounced as "samvrita" and correct according to Panini as suggested by an earlier member also. But it is not heard in every instance like Rama  and gaja. In the first the long A is विवृत and and short vowel a is संवृत. This is fine with राम in vocative case in Sanskrit. In nominative रामः or गज or गजः   I haven't heard such sound. Better it is the influence of Hindi pronunciation on Sanskrit प्रातिपदिक only used in Hindi. Will have to be tested in declined forms like रामस्य, कृष्णस्य etc.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_IOXImhcEg

please observe pronunciation of फलेन ,फलाय at 9: 00 and a little later. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

That means, Hindi , like English, is not a phonetic language. Where as Sanskrit and Telugu are phonetic.

Please correct me.

Regards

Ramana murthy

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

He is saying ' phalen" instead of ""phalena . अ a  is missing in his pronunciation.

Regards

Ramana murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Ramana Murthy-ji,

If you are interested in understanding these issues scientifically as you seem to be interested in /attempting to do, you need to study /learn linguistics. 

Statements like "English is a phonetic language" are not the established understanding in that discipline. 

"Hindi is a phonetic language like English" is consequentially a similar not the established understanding of the discipline. 

If you explain what you mean by a phonetic language and "English is a phonetic language" and "Hindi is a phonetic language like English", I may be able to help you. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Dhanyavad to all for the detailed explanations.

Yes, professor Nagaraj ji, my question was because of a spiritual discourse two years ago at our temple in Bradford.

At that time, a guru from Haridwar has delivered भागवत कथा. During that time he mentioned " राम् , कृष्ण् are the correct pronunciations, however south Indians tend speak राम, कृष्ण which is not correct. ". However after learning basics of संस्कृत I have realised the other way around. He had also mention that कृष्ण means Drupadi.

Now, I have got my doubt cleared that, the pronunciation is different from संस्कृत and हिंदी.

धन्यवाद

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

If there is any incorrect understanding of the my previous post due to wording, I am going to repost with different words.

Both Hindi and English are not phonetic languages.

Phonetic Language: A language in which pronunciation and spelling are exactly same. In other words, what is written is pronounced exactly and vice versa.

English is not phonetic language: We write psychology but while pronouncing the letter "p" is silent. Hence pronunciation and spelling are different. Hence not a phonetic language.

Hindi is not a phonetic language: we write राम raama and we utter राम् raam while speaking. Hence speaking and writing are different. Hence not a phonetic language.

I hope my explanation is now clear.

Regards

Ramana murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The term " phonetic language" in the sense in which you use them here does not exist in any established academic discipline. 

For that matter, the term " phonetic language" does not exist in any sense in any established academic discipline. 

Let us remember that script is not the essential feature of language. Hence script or relation between script and pronunciation can not be the basis of classification of languages. 

But conversely scripts can be classified on the basis of how each script symbol or grapheme in that script relates to the pronunciation in that language. 

In most Indian scripts, each grapheme represents a syllable of that language. All such scripts are called syllabic scripts. 

In English to represent a syllable of that language one needs a sequence of graphemes. Each of those script symbols or graphemes represents a phone or phoneme of the language. Hence English script can be called phonetic/phonemic script. 

In Devanagari, Telugu script etc., a syllable is represented by a single script symbol. 

But In Tamil script, while representing clusters, you need a sequence of more than one script symbol. So we can say that Tamil is partly a ponemic script. 

------------------------------------

In English you have consonant ending syllables. Words in English too are mostly consonant ending. 

There are some consonant ending syllables and words in Hindi.

That could be the similarity that you noticed. 

 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Srivatsa B R]

Dear Ravikishore,

One should not blindly believe what one hears. Your experience is an example.

Secondly, the word kRSNA, ending with a long vowel 'A' does mean draupadI.

with regards,

Shrivatsa

Srivatsa B R

Senior Linguist & Faculty (English) - ACTS

Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC)

'Knowledge Park', # 1, Old Madras Road, Baiyappanahalli, Near Baiyappanahalli Metro Station,

Bengaluru - 560 038

Karnataka, India

[Vineet Chaitanya]

Namaskaara Ravikishore Annadanam ji,

       You wrote:

"At that time, a guru from Haridwar has delivered भागवत कथा. During that time he mentioned " राम् , कृष्ण् are the correct pronunciations, however south Indians tend speak राम, कृष्ण which is not correct. ". However after learning basics of संस्कृत I have realised the other way around. He had also mention that कृष्ण means Drupadi."

       I think the guru mast have simply pronounced the concerned words and the transcription is yours.

      First let me present my observations as a North Indian:

        When I hear South Indians their pronunciation of "राम" sounds to me as "रामा"!

        I also understand that we North Indians if we are not alert about it we pronounce it as "राम्"

        But I also think I can correctly pronounce "राम".

      I discussed these observations with my South Indian Linguist friend and have reached the following conclusion:

      1. South Indian are quite sensitive about मात्रा or duration of the vowel. 

          But I think their pronunciation of vowel "अ" is ह्रस्व but not संवृत्त but rather विवृत्त.

       2. North Indians in general can easily pronounce "अ" correctly but when it occurs at the end of word they clip it

           which is of course wrong.

     The guru must have said "कृष्णा" means Draupadi.

Regards

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Can someone please help me in writing equivalents of the the following in Hindi Script?

 

Sanskrit	IAST	Telugu	Hindi
राम्	rām	రామ్	?
राम	rāma	రామ	?
रामा	rāmā	రామా	?

 

Regards

Ramana Murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Ramana Murthy garu,

Script for Sanskrit and Hindi is the same . It is called Dev(a)nagari ( Dev(a)naagaree). 

So answer for you is the last column is the same as the first column.  

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[K S Kannan]

The words are saMvRta  (=closed) and vivRta (=open)

(not saMvRtta and vivRtta)

i.e. there is no double ta-kAra in either case.

Dr. K.S.Kannan

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Member, Exec Committee, Indian Institute of World Culture, Bangalore.

Member, BoS, Chinmaya University.

Member, BoS, University of Hyderabad.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Principal, Evening College, Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

The following screenshot is taken from "International Journal of Languages’ Education and Teaching Volume 2 / 2014." The complete paper can be found in the attachment.

Regards

Ramana Murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

[Kalyan K]

//Script for Sanskrit and Hindi is the same//


Are you sure Sri Paturiji? While Devanagari was/is usually employed for Sanskrit, it can also be written in most Indic scripts, as far as I understand. I doubt if there is one particular script for Sanskrit.

[S R Ivaturi]

At least in Telugu there is no elongation in pronouncing राम etc. The confusion is because the vocative in Telugu is the elongated end vowel.    रामा in Telugu is  हे राम!  in Sanskrit. But the Telugu speakers usually do not elongate the last vowel if it is a Sanskrit bhajan as  हरे राम हरे कृष्ण .

Dr. S R Ivaturi

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

May we know more about this journal, whether it is run by professional linguists, or board of referees /editors contains professional linguists, is the author properly trained in linguistics etc.?

I gave you the reason for why classifying all the languages on the basis of script is not correct. In any discipline, a theorisation that has a limited application within the corpus  of its focus is not considered to be not a correct theorisation. 

Classification of languages in this language is not a correct theorisation of linguistics since it covers only languages with script which are only a meagre percent of languages. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Correction:

 In any discipline, a theorisation that has a limited application within the corpus  of its focus is not considered to be a correct theorisation. 

Not

 In any discipline, a theorisation that has a limited application within the corpus  of its focus is not considered to be not a correct theorisation. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Leave alone classification, talking about how script is pronounced in a given language as a characteristic feature of that language itself is an upside down approach. 

Fundamental form of any language is it's spoken form. All languages have this form. Written form may or may not exist for all languages. In the case of a language where the written form exists, one should talk about how a given pronunciation is written down in that language and not about how a written form is pronounced. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Kalyan-ji, 

That's a good question. 

Yes, you are right. Sanskrit is not written just in Devanagari. It is written in several Indian scripts Telugu,. Grantha etc. also.

A statement 'Devanagari is the (only) script of Sanskrit ' would have been wrong.

'Script of Sanskrit is Devanagari' may sound like Devanagari is the only script of Sanskrit. 

The context was to say that when Devanagari is the script used for both Hindi and Sanskrit, rules of writing

are the same. 

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 9:37 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com wrote:

//Script for Sanskrit and Hindi is the same//


Are you sure Sri Paturiji? While Devanagari was/is usually employed for Sanskrit, it can also be written in most Indic scripts, as far as I understand. I doubt if there is one particular script for Sanskrit.

[Nityanand Misra]

The phenomenon of schwa deletion, due to which Sanskrit राम is pronounced in many northern languages without the terminal vowel as राम्, is not limited to Hindi. It is seen to a great degree in many northern and western Indian languages and perhaps even in the east. It is well documented and there is a Wikipedia article on Schwa deletion in Indo-Aryan languages which one can read. In this post, I would like to point out that this phenomenon of schwa syncope is, contrary to views expressed by some members in this thread, also seen in southern Indian languages today, in both spelling and pronunciation. I do not know the history of when and how schwa syncope started in the south, but when it comes to Sanskrit names, the phenomenon is pretty obvious today. 

Let us start with Kerala. Sanskrit names are often suffixed with a terminal n, e.g. Raman, Gopalan, etc. Where they are not, they are many a time written (and pronounced) by dropping the final a. Here are examples, taken from the current list of MLAs in Kerala. Examples where the final a is dropped: I. B. Sathish, O. Rajagopal, V. S. Sivakumar, G. S. Jayalal, M. Mukesh, K. B. Ganesh Kumar, Chittayam Gopakumar, Adoor Prakash, R. Rajesh, Ramesh Chennithala, N. Jayaraj, K. Suresh Kurup, M. Swaraj, V. R. Sunil Kumar, C. Raveendranath, V. S. Sunil Kumar, Anil Akkara, U. R. Pradeep, K. V. Vijayadas, V. T. Balram, A. P. Anil Kumar, A. Pradeepkumar, T. V. Rajesh. Note how Sat[h]ish, Kumar, Ganesh, Sunil, etc are spelt exactly how they would be spelt in northern India. Now let us take the example of V. T. Balram. The name is obviously the Sanskrit word balarāma (बलराम or ബലരാമ). His name is written in Malayalam on the Malayalam Wikipedia as ബൽറാം (बल्रां). Not ല but ൽ and not മ but ം. Schwa deleted in both  bala and rāma. 

Now move on to Tamil Nadu. The famous journalist of Kasturi family spells his name as Narasimhan Ram. Not Rama, but Ram. On the Tamil Wikipedia, his name is spelt as ராம் (राम्), and not ராம (राम). This thread started with how राम is pronounced, and here is an example from the south where the name राम is written [and pronounced] as राम्. Look at the list of members of the Tamil Nadu assembly and you will either see an m or n added to the final a in Sanskrit names or the final a being dropped, for example in case of names like Vijayakumar K S, Jayakumar D, Sekar Babu P K, Mohan M. K., Nataraj R., Aravind Ramesh S., Sundar K., Nandakumar A. P., and so on. 

In Karnataka again, the phenomenon is common. The busts of the late thespian Dr. Rajkumar are installed at many places in Bengaluru. Everywhere, his name is spelt in Kannada as ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ (राज्) or ಡಾ. ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್ (राज् कुमार्). I have not seen the spelling ರಾಜಕುಮಾರ being used for him. One can easily infer how the name is pronounced. Looking at names of members of Karnataka assembly, one will find Aihole Duryodhan Mahalingappa, D. S. Suresh, B. C. Nagesh, S. Suresh Kumar, G. B. Jyothi Ganesh, Jayaram A. S., R. Shankar, and so on. In Kannada, the name Suresh is spelt [and pronounced] as ಸುರೇಶ್‌ (सुरेश्), Nagesh as ನಾಗೇಶ್‌ (नागेश्), etc, on the official website of Karnataka legislature. The terminal a of the Sanskrit word is deleted in all these cases in writing and pronuciation. 

Finally, come to Telugu speaking states of Telangana and Andhra. Going through names of Telangana MLAs one would see Diwakar Rao Nadipelli, Allolla Indra Karan Reddy, Gaddigari Vittal Reddy, Ashannagari Jeevan Reddy, Srinivas Reddy Parige, Bigala Ganesh, Gangula Kamalakar, Tammannagari Ram Mohan Reddy, etc. Note the spellings Diwakar, Karan, Vittal, Jeevan, Srinivas, Ganesh, Kamalakar, Ram, Mohan. Pawan Kalyan spells his name in Telugu as పవన్ కళ్యాణ్ and not పవన కళ్యాణ. Google search for "పవన్ కళ్యాణ్" gets 22 lakh hits, that for "పవన కళ్యాణ" gets 317 hits. Winners of the Andhra Pradesh assembly election in 2014 included names like Ashok Bendalam, Gouthu Syam Sunder Sivaji, Vasupalli Ganesh Kumar, Pendurthi Venkatesh, etc. 

The difference I see with the terminal schwa syncope in south is that it is reflected in the script also. So Sanskrit names are both spelled and pronounced incorrectly while the phoneticity of the script is preserved, while in the north and west they are spelled correctly but pronounced incorrectly, compromising the phoneticity of the script.

Perhaps members of the list can shed more light on how and why this phenomenon started in the south. 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

I think Rajkumar etc. is the influence of English and/Hindi languages. In proper literature it is spelt and pronounced as राजकुमार without Kannada inflection.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Regarding consonant ending names in the south, there are two different aspects here.

-an ending in Tamil and Malayalam names has no syncope involved. It is masculine singular suffix native to those languages 

-aaL , the feminine singular suffix 

and

-ar , the masculine and sometimes gender-neutral human plural suffix are also found  in these two languages.  

These two suffices too are native to these languages and like -an have nothing to do with Sanskrit.

But the cononant ending Sanskritic names is a different animal 

It is obviously a modern time development in south Indian languages and is obviously a North Indian influence. Like many North Indian influences on south India, this too is received and viewed as modernity in culture .

This is different from pronouncing Sanskrit verses  

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Prof. Paturi

On Saturday, 8 December 2018 07:38:15 UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

Regarding consonant ending names in the south, there are two different aspects here.

-an ending in Tamil and Malayalam names has no syncope involved. It is masculine singular suffix native to those languages 

-aaL , the feminine singular suffix 

and

-ar , the masculine and sometimes gender-neutral human plural suffix are also found  in these two languages.  

These two suffices too are native to these languages and like -an have nothing to do with Sanskrit.

Yes, but the -n and -m suffix are commonly used with Sanskrit names in Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Just like the non-Sanskrit suffixes -appa and -aiah are commonly used with Sanskrit names in some parts, e.g. Shivappa, Nijalingappa, Virappa, Ramaiah, etc. 

 

But the cononant ending Sanskritic names is a different animal 

It is obviously a modern time development in south Indian languages and is obviously a North Indian influence. Like many North Indian influences on south India, this too is received and viewed as modernity in culture .

Could there be linguistic reasons also? What is the frequency of terminal vowels in native (non-Sanskrit) words in say Telugu? Does the hrasva a have a high frequency? I have heard and observed many Telugu words end with -u. Even Sanskrit words are adapted to reflect this effect, for example veda becomes vedamu and the Telugu translation of Ramacharitamanasa of Tulasidasa published by Gita Press is called శ్రీరామచరితమానసము (श्रीरामचरितमानसमु) and not శ్రీ రామచరిత మానస (श्रीरामचरितमानस). Perhaps some analysis of statistical frequency of terminal vowels might help here?

 

This is different from pronouncing Sanskrit verses  

I do not think the discussion is on pronouncing Sanskrit verses, but on Sanskrit words. Sanskrit verses are completely different as they are metrical and usually chanted/pronounced with a rhythm, and so the pronunciation is more likely to be correct. For example, while pronouncing/singing श्रीराम राम शरणं भव राम राम, if any of the occurrences of राम is mispronounced as रां/राम्, the chanter/singer will be out of sync. The same is applicable to metrical poetry in Awadhi and Hindi. While reading/chanting/singing the Awadhi line राम राम कहि राम कहि राम राम कहि राम (Manasa 2.155), experienced readers/chanters/singers will pronounce राम correctly (Mukesh sings with the correct pronunciation in his rendition of the Ayodhyakanda). Similarly, while reading the प्रिय प्रवास of अयोध्या सिंह उपाध्याय 'हरिऔध', a verse in the द्रुतविलम्बित metre like the opening verse दिवस का अवसान समीप था will be recited/sung correctly by a Hindi poetry reader otherwise the rhythm will be broken. The discussion is on pronunciation of Sanskrit words in non-Sanskrit languages. Why would my name be spelled Nityanand and not Nityananda in official documents (in my books I spell it as Nityananda) and your name be spelt Nagaraj and not Nagaraja in official documents if it were not for schwa syncope in Hindi and Telugu speakers?

Thanks, Nityananda

[Nityanand Misra]

On Saturday, 8 December 2018 07:19:44 UTC+5:30, hnbhat wrote:

I think Rajkumar etc. is the influence of English and/Hindi languages. In proper literature it is spelt and pronounced as राजकुमार without Kannada inflection.

Thanks. Dr. Bhat. What is meant by proper literature? How is Dr. Rajkumar's name pronounced by say Kannada TV news channels? 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

There are studies on the vowel endings in different south Indian languages. In classical Telugu grammars which focus on classical or graanthika Telugu , there are rules composed to cover these to the most extent. 

Modern linguists studying contemporary Telugu came out with phonemic distribution rules and made mention of frequency of different vowel endings. 

-u ending for adapting any consonant-ending loan word to Telugu is a well known observation. 

This is used as an explanation for -u endings in native Telugu words and is explained as the Telugu-isation of the consonant-ending proto-Dravidian roots. 

- ḍu, -mu, -vu etc., are a different story. Though -u in them is the same as the above, Dravidian etymological explanation for each of these has different path. 

Though like the north Indian women's dress , what used to be called Punjabi dress in my place, or chooDidaar pyjaamaa at all over the places in the south nowadays that is received and viewed as 'modern' dress, the consonant-ending personal names with Sanskrit origin are north Indian influence and are recieved as modern culture. 

But different traditional local ways of name-endings for the same continues. My own name is found as consonant-ending in all the official records. Bu my Telugu friends call me Naagaraaju and spell my name in English as Nagaraju. My Kannada friends call me Naagaraaja and spell the same in English as Nagaraja. My Tamil friends call me Naaharaajan/Naaharaachan though they spell the same as Nagarajan. 

In the very beginning of my participation in this thread, I said that a Hindi speaker pronouncing राम as राम् while speaking Hindi is not 'wrong' . It is the Hindi way of doing things. It is similar to rāmuḍu of Telugu  rāmanu,of Kannada and  rāman of Tamil or Malayalam. 

But observations pointed out from the videos shared are about north Indian pronunciation of Sanskrit words while pronouncing them as part of Sanskrit only. 

 'wrongs' in pronunciation of Sanskrit words while pronouncing them as part of Sanskrit only are not uncommon among south Indians. Mother tongue influence in Sanskrit pronunciation is a pan-Indian phenomenon. 

But that is different from the methods of borrowing Sanskrit words into different Indian languages. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Gowrishankar Arunachalam]

Dear Sri Nityananda ji,

Names of individuals are their choice. As Sri Bhat ji mentioned influence of English and Hindi has prompted to modify their individual name.

But while writing and speaking about Rama or krishna the tamil inflection by adding an, Raman Krishnan are adopted by all. In case of Ram it is Ramukku instead of Ramanukku. Writing and speaking in coloquial Tamil is still with Raman and Krishnan etc.

I am sure it is the same with Telugu or Kannada. It is Sudhakara or Sudhakar as chosen by an individual as his name.

सस्नेहम्
Gowrishankar
आनो भद्रा: क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वत:
Let Noble Thoughts Flow from Everywhere

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:04 AM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

[Vineet Chaitanya]

Namaskaara Kannanji,

Thank you very much for pointing out the error.

Regards

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

There is no elongation of a or anything else by at least properly trained Sanskrit chanters from the South. If there is a hrasva at the *end of a sentence*, it is generally pronounced longer than eka-mAtra for reasons of euphony. If there is a sudden stop at the end with a hrasva, it does not sound good. This is quite evident in Vedic recitations in the South. For example, the a-kaara at the end of the sentence in "tava_ tayaa!no rudram.r.daya |" will be very *slightly* elongated compared to the a-kaaras in tava. *Properly* trained chanters will similarly pronounce the dIrgha vowels *at the end of a sentence* very slightly more than 2 mAtra-s to avoid confusion. This carries over in their normal speech when South Indians say single words like rAma, nArAyaNa, etc. Chopping off the vowel itself as in Hindi is quite a different phenomenon.

People get hung up on mAtra definitions from sUtra-s etc., without properly understanding euphony etc., which can be learned *only* guru-mukha. I have seen people trying to do an exact eka-mAtra at the end of some of these Vedic sentences after going through sUtra-s with quite cacophonous results. A little knowledge is indeed very dangerous.

There is the case of some Carnatic singers rendering some shloka-s, etc. There the rules of mAtra are flouted all over the place, but that's something else.

In this regard, the second verse of the laghuvR^itta-ratnAkara, which provides the option of treating a hrasva at the end of a pada as dIrgha, may be applicable or at least interesting:

eka-mAtro bhavedhrasvaH dvimAtro dIrgha ucyate |

sAnusvaro visargAnto dIrgho yuktaparashca yaH |

vA padAnte tvasaU gu vakraH j~neyo.anyo mAtrikaH l R^ijuH ||

Ramakrishnan

ptout.

[Vineet Chaitanya]

Dear Shree Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan ji,

            I acknowledged in my original mail that South Indians "do not elongate" the vowel under discussion. I had used the word

"ह्रस्व आ" to convey your point. But I claim it is typically "विवृत". In other words the last सूत्र of Ashtaadhyaayii is typically ignored because of habit.

           The point under discussion in the original question was about isolated words like राम and कृष्ण.

Regards

 

--

[Bijoy Misra]

I will make two points:

1.  The transliteration of a word in English has its own variations because of various reasons.

2.  We are making an observation here on the use of an end vowel to express emotion. 

     We do not know if such endings have cultural implications.  Our thinking is all expression is neurologically induced.

I can say more in a year.

BM

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Again - end of a sentence versus in the middle. Please listen carefully to the Chellakare brothers chanting rudram starting at 4:07 point:

"si_vaa "sa!ra_vyaa! yaa tava_ tayA!no rudra m.r.daya |

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNY-Qt6sGIs

See if you are able to distinguish the last "a" which sounds vivR^ita due to euphony. You cannot elongate and at the same time maintain sa.mvR^ita. I have seen some older amateurs, especially who read some sUtra-s at the same time as trying to learn some vedas, trying to pronounce the last as sa.mvR^ita with disastrous results. I have found that you just cannot correct these people, they just refuse to listen, because they have read sUtra-s you see. Again this carries over to single words.

Ramakrishnan

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

The original question is missing of अa at the end in राम and कृष्ण.

In Hindi, the अa at the end in राम is silent as a general rule as per grammar books.

1.  

     CONCISE GRAMMAR OF THE HINDI LANGUAGE- H C SCHOLBERG

 

 

2.       A GRAMMAR OF THE HINDI LANGUAGE- KELLOGG

Regards

Ramana murthy 

[Vineet Chaitanya]

There is no disagreement about this.

--

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Here is the video of Kannada movie.

https://youtu.be/XbFV7wCcEFM?t=2137

at 35:55 min ramesha (रमेश) - अ a retained

at 36:19 min ramesh (रमेश्) - अ a omitted

If we watch a few minutes, we find that sometimes Ramesha and sometimes Ramesh is used

There is no consistency in using the vocative case of proper nouns.

Regards

Ramana Murthy

[Hnbhat B.R.]

This has been already explained in Kannada and Movie dialogue is not standard of pronunciation!

--

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

The अ a in राम can be omitted in pronounciation but अ a in कृष्ण can not be omitted as ष्ण is conjunct letter.

Here is a famous Hindi Bhajan song: 

कृष्ण गोविन्द गोपाल गाते रहो ।

In the below song, Swamiji has clearly sung as कृष्ण retaining अ a. 

https://youtu.be/kglw3JMpl04?t=2561

Also अ a is retained in गोपाल also in the song.

Regards

Ramana murthy

[Vineet Chaitanya]

I too believe this.

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

What is the rule for omitting अ in कृष्ण in Sanskrit?

--

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Dear scholars,

I give my first hand observation.

In Maharashtra also,many people. pronounce the words Rama and Krishna as halantas,but,the persons hailing from Karnataka, invariably pronounce as full ma and shna.I used to recognise such Kannada.speaking persons because of this peculiar pronunciation of theirs.I think,this is a roodhi and we need not bother about its grammatical correctness or otherwise and remember the adage,शास्त्राद्रूढिः बलीयसी.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Then I have a question. कृष्ण    is vocative in Sanskrit is pronounced as कृष्ण् then how कृष्णः is pronounced?

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

In the previous posts, I have misconstructed sentences: Here is the updated one.

अ a in कृष्ण is not omitted in both Hindi and Sanskrit.

अ a is omitted in राम in Hindi only. There is no omission of अ a in राम of Sanskrit

[Vineet Chaitanya]

As per my understanding, Shree RamanaMurthy Bathala was talking about final "a" deletion habit of North Indian speakers.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

The thread initiator himself has said कृष्ण is pronounce  without 'a' as कृष्ण् like राम. Please see the first post.

--

[Vineet Chaitanya]

Following is my impression:

It was a mistake on the part of thread initiator, since he himself was not a North Indian.

He was simply reporting what he understood from some comments in a religious discourse.

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Pronouncing (in Hindi) कृष्ण without अa as कृष्ण् is not correct.

1) Here is the Bhajan song in Hindi sung by Swamiji. I attended the Swamiji's Bhajan programs during festivals. Swamiji clearly sung with अa at the end in कृष्ण.

Here is the link to the video:

https://youtu.be/kglw3JMpl04?t=2561

2) Even according to the Hindi grammar books, अa should not be omitted in the conjunct letters occurring at the ending of words such as कृष्ण (as ष्ण is conjunct letter) . Please find the red markings on the screenshot substantiating this.

CONCISE GRAMMAR OF THE HINDI LANGUAGE- H C SCHOLBERG

[Hnbhat B.R.]

What is the justification for this?

On Sunday, December 9, 2018, Vineet Chaitanya <v...@iiit.ac.in> wrote:

I too believe this.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:41 AM RamanaMurthy Bathala <bathal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir,

The अ a in राम can be omitted in pronounciation but अ a in कृष्ण can not be omitted as ष्ण is conjunct letter.

Here is a famous Hindi Bhajan song: 

कृष्ण गोविन्द गोपाल गाते रहो ।

In the below song, Swamiji has clearly sung as कृष्ण retaining अ a. 

https://youtu.be/kglw3JMpl04?t=2561

Also अ a is retained in गोपाल also in the song.

Regards

Ramana murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

नमस्ते

Sorry, if this question has already been discussed, however I could not find how to search this in our group for older posts.

My question:

Why is that some people pronounce the words like राम  as राम् , कृष्ण as कृष्ण् ? Is this the correct pronunciation?

Is this pronunciation same in Sanskrit and Hindi for the word राम and कृष्ण?

धन्यवाद,

अन्नदानम् रविकिशोर्

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

Pronunciation in Hindi does not follow spelling; so also in English; cough is cuf not kough 

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 8:26 AM Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the justification for this?

On Sunday, December 9, 2018, Vineet Chaitanya <v...@iiit.ac.in> wrote:

I too believe this.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:41 AM RamanaMurthy Bathala <bathal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir,

The अ a in राम can be omitted in pronounciation but अ a in कृष्ण can not be omitted as ष्ण is conjunct letter.

Here is a famous Hindi Bhajan song: 

कृष्ण गोविन्द गोपाल गाते रहो ।

In the below song, Swamiji has clearly sung as कृष्ण retaining अ a. 

https://youtu.be/kglw3JMpl04?t=2561

Also अ a is retained in गोपाल also in the song.

Regards

Ramana murthy

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 20:36:46 UTC+5:30, RaviKishore Annadanam wrote:

नमस्ते

Sorry, if this question has already been discussed, however I could not find how to search this in our group for older posts.

My question:

Why is that some people pronounce the words like राम  as राम् , कृष्ण as कृष्ण् ? Is this the correct pronunciation?

Is this pronunciation same in Sanskrit and Hindi for the word राम and कृष्ण?

धन्यवाद,

अन्नदानम् रविकिशोर्

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

[ken p]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa_deletion_in_Indo-Aryan_languages

Indian children learning Hindi or Sanskrit are never taught Devanagari alphabet based on sounds this way in schools.

Devanāgarī /  Indic Roman

अ आ इ ई उ ऊ ऋ ॠ ए ऐ ओ औ ऍ ऑ अः अम्‌ अन्‌

a  ā  i  ī  u ū  ṛ ṝ  e ai o au  ă ŏ aḥ  am‌ an‌ 

अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं एं ऐं ओं औं  ॐ  अँ आँ इँ ईँ उँ ऊँ एँ 

ȧ ā̇   ï ī̇   u̇ ū̇ ė aï ȯ au̇   OM   a̐ ā̐  i̐  ī̐  u̐ ū̐  e̐ 

क् ख् ग् घ् ङ्       / क ख ग घ ङ

k kh g gh ṅ /   ka kha ga gha ṅa

च् छ् ज् झ् ञ्            / च छ ज झ ञ

ch chh j jh/z ñ /   cha chha ja jha/za ña

ट् ठ् ड् ढ् ण्         / ट ठ ड ढ ण

ṭ ṭh ḍ ḍh ṇ  /   ṭa ṭha ḍa ḍha ṇa

त् थ् द् ध् न्         / त थ द ध न

t th d dh n  /   ta tha da dha na 

प् फ् ब् भ् म्             / प फ ब भ म

\p ph/f b bh m  /   pa pha/fa ba bha ma

य् र् ल् ळ् व् ह्        / य र ल ळ व ह

y r l ḷ v h     /   ya ra la ḷa va ha 

श् ष् स् ज्ञ् क्ष्‌ त्र् श्र्‌           / श ष स क्ष ज्ञ त्र श्र 

sh ṣ s jñ kṣ tr shr  /    sha ṣa sa  kṣa/xa jña tra shra

क़् ख़् ग़् ज़् ड़् ढ़् फ़् ऱ् ऴ्        /  ख़ ग़ ज़ ड़ ढ़ फ़ ऱ ऴ 

ḳ ḳh g̣ j̣ d̤ d̤h f̣ ṛ l̤     /    ḳa ḳha g̣a j̣a d̤a d̤ha f̣a ṛa l̤a

https://books.google.com/books?id=AyJdDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT480&lpg=PT480&dq=%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE&source=bl&ots=9EMcA8Imzw&sig=08tQi63-udq6Gg4uBXUhH97ZTuk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-5oDHi5_dAhULwYMKHdRIAOEQ6AEwBXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE&f=false

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> Indian children learning Hindi or Sanskrit are never taught Devanagari alphabet based on sounds this way in schools.

Hmm!! 

???

Did you mean 

Indian children learning Hindi or Sanskrit are always taught Devanagari alphabet based on sounds this way in schools.?

In fact, Indian children learning Hindi or Sanskrit  or any Indian languge are always taught Devanagari or ny Indian language alphabet based on sounds this way in schools.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

[ken p]

Mr.Paturi,
First of all I am not a linguist.
Yes, children are taught traditional full lettered consonants in Devanagari alphabet with sounds but not half lettered one with partial sounds.
if children are taught to write राम , कृष्ण (र ा म ।क ृ ष् ण ) this way then they may never think about these hidden sounds ie र्‌+आ+म्‌+अ, क्+ ऋ +ष् +ण
Still these newly added Devanagari sounds ऍ/ॲ,ऑ are not taught to children in schools. Also अं /ȧ has dual sound in words ie अंबर ,अंदर
So it will be better to write conjunct letters in Devanagari scripted languages as shown in above Bhāgavat Kathā link. ie कृष्‌ण

Here are some links

https://books.google.com/books?id=H-cwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E2%80%8C&source=bl&ots=zKC0YqWUpQ&sig=PJxCXleRSlh1ILekz9PiptiMHgc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihoM6Cq8LdAhVj4oMKHRLvAPIQ6AEwDHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E2%80%8C&f=false

http://www.learning-hindi.com/post/978349527/lesson-32-consonant-conjuncts-part-1

https://youtu.be/LsU0HaFoRxc

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes, Mr Ken. But it is , I would not say common sense, but easy to see why your  'half letters' I think you mean, pure consonants are no taught. 

It is not easy to pronounce pure consonants. So it is for the ease of pronunciation that a vowel usually samvrit 'a' अ is added while teaching Devanagari script. 

It is not true to say that children are not taught about का  being क् + आ  or  कु  being क् +उ etc. 

Most teachers, while teaching बाराखडी  or बारहखडी use words like आ की मात्रा, उ की मात्रा only. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[K S Kannan]

hakArAdis"vakAra uccAraNArthaH

[S R Ivaturi]

In South Indian languages if they pronounce a word as halanth they write it as halanth, and they write as ajantha and pronounce as ajantha. In Northern languages they write as ajantha and pronounce as halanth. We have to take it as the flavour of the language.

When a vocative has a-ending in Southern languages it is the native ajantha word. If the same is pronounced as halanth it is the halanth variation of the word.

For example the proper ajantha Telugu name is Pawana Kalyana or Pawana Kalyanudu (to be more specific). The evocative for this is Pawana Kalyana/A with the last a elongated (can be not elongated too). But now in Telugu names are used as halanth i.e Pawan Kalyan. Then the vocative will be Pawan Kalyan only. Of course even then you can use the elongated vocative Pawana Kalyana/A as it is native Telugu.

Dr. S R Ivaturi        

[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Dhanyavaad to all.

So, just to reiterate my final understanding on this, all the Indian languages, including Sanskrit will be written as they are pronounced, while it is not the case only with Hindi (halantha is pronounced, while ajantha is written).

As I do not have much idea about earlier/older north Indian languages such as awadhi, out of my interest I'd like to ask. Are those languages (such as awadhi) also were written as they pronounced, or not?

Dhanyavaad,

Ravi Kishore Annadanam

[Vineet Chaitanya]

No, Ravi Kishore ji,

                         Your conclusion is not correct.

                          Hindi is also, almost,  pronounced as it is written; except in the case अकारान्त words due to a habit which I call a "bad habit" they drop final 'अ', in case of कमल it is pronounced as कमल् . Again in case of अकारान्त words where final अ is immediately preceded by a consonant conjunct the final अ is pronounced correctly. For example, कृष्ण is pronounced as कृष्ण.

                            Also, please, do not assume that all other Indian language speakers pronounced the words, exactly as they are written! 

                            But yes, our situation is much better than the case of English.

Regards

[S R Ivaturi]

In Hindi not only the final a but also the 2nd, 4th etc a letters are also drop their a. For ex. namkeen though written as namkeena नमकीन is pronounced as nam-keen. So तनमनधन is  तन्-मन्-धन् ,  रामशरण is राम्-शरण् etc.

Regards

Dr S R Ivaturi 

[S R Ivaturi]

please read "a letters also drop". No 'are'.

[Vineet Chaitanya]

Namaskaara Dr S R Ivaturi ji,

             Your examples do seem correct, but I am sure no Hindi speaker drops अ in नमक. So the rule needs to be stated more precisely. I do not work in the area of speech, though I was aware that second अ is dropped in जनता.

             By the way I know a Telugu person named रामबाबु who writes his name in Telugu which turns out to be equivalent to रांबाबु ! I do not think that Hindi speaker pronounces रामबाबु as राम्बाबु .  My conjecture would be that in such cases Hindi speakers pronounce something like हृस्व-हृस्व अ. Would you agree?

Regards

[S R Ivaturi]

Sir

The 2nd etc. dropping comes into effect when the word has more than 3 letters.

These are primary pronunciation rules for Hindi. So I have not given the whole set of rules. So no dropping of a will be in say महल,  सडक etc. also.

Dr S R Ivaturi

[S R Ivaturi]

For Ram(a)babu, in another post I explained that nowadays in Telugu also the names are written as Halanthas. So in Telugu also he will write it as Rambabu and not as Ramababu so the Hindi equivalent will be रांबाबु। Even if it is written as रामबाबु in Hindi it will be pronounced as Ram-baby only.

Dr. S R Ivaturi 

[Sivasenani Nori]

Deviations from Siksha across are more than the one instance noted. Some others are (if stated in a generalised manner):

* South Indians seem to not pronounce mahaapraanas properly, with many making them indistinguishable from alpapranas

* श, ष, स —  seem to be more mispronounced than correctly pronounced. श, ष being barely distinguishable in North, श, स in South and West, all three in East and so on. 

* ksha seems to become khya in East

* ज्ञ, ऋ seem to be incorrectly pronounced all over the country

* ङ, ञ, ण seem to have become the anusvaara (influence of Prakrit) 

* pha seems to have become fa (Persian influence) 

* ह्ण, ह्न, ह्म, ह्ल, ह्व - these have their own specific issue

* then there are stylistic corruptions like namashkaar. 

* and so on

In all the above, the correct traditional stance is to note the pronunciation of SishTas (which is good across the country and any seeming deviation is supported by Praatisaakhyas) rather than the common pronunciation. The non-normative pronunciation that modern linguistics studies, suffers from nebulous boundaries. There is the old saying that language changes every kos. What is called Hindi is split into some 55 languages by the census. In Telugu, the dialect changes from district to district and there are many changes within a district seen in the district-wise dialects studied and recorded by the Telugu University. Language changes with the socio-economic class (read Bernard Shaw's Pygmallion for the situation in London a hundred years back), age, time, place, situation and so on. So when we say "generally" whose language do we mean?  The commoners, so to speak, hugely outnumber the elite, if we are to go by mere numbers. And the term commoner can include hugely wealthy, successful or powerful people. In Telugu speaking states, many successful/wealthy/powerful people (film stars, ministers, businessmen) write their names as सुरेष्, महेष्, वेंकटेष्, हरीष्, etc. 

Keeping all this in mind, Patanjali in the Mahabhashya advises study of saadhuSabdas and says it is not possible to give lakshana of apaSabdas.

So, in summary, if at all an open-minded opinion is to be stated, it would be wider than the one stated and would specifically recognise the imprecision (of geographical and class boundaries) in the ooinion. Wiser thing would be to recognise what Patanjali said so many years back. 

Regards 

N. Siva Senani 

[kapoor kapil]

'Letters' or 'akshara', Sir?

  My regards,

     kapil kapoor 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 at 6:53 pm, S R Ivaturi

<sriv...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ramchander deekonda]

Respected Scholars,

I have always entered into arguments with my north Indian friends with regard to the pronunciation of Sanskrit words.  They habitually pronounce all ajanta words as halanta. राम is  राम् ।  Moreover, even the ajanta  becomes halanta in the middle of the word too.   Example, the name माधवी is objectionably pronounced as माध्वी  While writing also in English  they avoid "a" between "dh"and "vi".  Similarly Lalita ललिता   is pronounced  Lalta लल्ता

I am amused that even big scholars of Hindi fail to understand that their language is highly influenced by the marauding forces of Arab and Turkey invaders.  As we know, Arabic language uses vowels only for longs (dIrgha). Our Urdu is also very very difficult to read by a beginner who is not familiar with the word. To write, a word like मुकुट they only write consonants MKT.  It could be read as makat and mukat or mukut.  They hardly use diacritical marks and the script does not have the facility of using vowels for shorts ह्रस्व .  

Hindi, being a language of the masses in the northern belt of India, was used by the invaders mixing Arabic and Turkish words in their transactions in the social intercourse.  Thus, the present Hindi is corrupted by those languages which do not have the tradition of using vowels for shorts.  

Hyderabad (Telangana) being part of Nizam's (Mughal) Dominion is also a region where Arabic and Urdu have played a major role in administration and governance.  Even the name of this writer is corrupted by the authorities.  रामचन्द्र has become  राम् चन्दर् ramchander.  A thorough overhaul of pronunciation is required for all the regions of this country.

Short e and long e pronunciation is another area of conflict with my north Indian scholars. For them there is no difference between the pronunciation of "test" and "taste". 

Respectfully,

Ramchander Deekonda

[K S Kannan]

A new nasty movement has begun in Karnataka

of divesting the dIrgha and mahAprANa of all words!

Even conjunct consonants are not spared distortions!

A few journals are even entertaining articles in this new "Kannada",

which is given a grand appellation viz. Ellara Kannada (The Kannada of "All").

The main impetus seems to be little else than crass anti-Brahminism,

which reduces itself to nothing but (anti-Vedism and) anti-Sanskritism.

In Kannada, and as must be in several Indian languages,

there is almost no poet or writer who is not, first and foremost, a sociologist,

if not also a socialist or communist - especially if honoured by the State/Central Govt.

Typically, if you just criticise publicly, say, the Ramayana as oppressive,

you are likely to be shortlisted for some award

(consider Sheldon Pollock as recipient of Padmasri),

and you will automatically be elevated as or looked upon

as an expert linguist also as a bonus.

And the roots of this anti-Brahminism goes back to

the Herculean efforts of Christians to ennoble the heathen in his blindness,

for it is Brahmins who were their main hurdle as they were intellectual.

Max Muller and Monier Williams dreamt of  the White Flag fluttering all over South Asia.

For Farquhar, Christ was "the crowning glory" of Hinduism.

Whitney's contempt for the "native grammarians" is not unknown either.

All this is no thing of the past : even today Bronkhorst can consider

Brahmins and plague as coplanar, see his paper in WSC - 17.

The primary sutra is : disrupt Brahminism via

distorting Sanskritand whatever is related to Sanskrit.

This "movement" is by no means on par with

daivI vAg vyavakIrNeyam as'aktair abhidhAtRbhiH

of Bhatrhari.

[ken p]

The primary sutra is : disrupt Brahminism via 

distorting Sanskritand whatever is related to Sanskrit..........

https://brahminsexposed.wordpress.com/

[Bijoy Misra]

What is the origin of this site?

--

[K S Kannan]

bhujan'gam api kopitam s'irasi pus"pavad dhArayet.

There are many things beyond the ken of the prejudiced.