Dual n-back training and nervousness/anxiety?

[N-back trainee]

Seems like there is a pattern - I have been doing the n-back training
for over a year and almost every time I do the training (I always do
it before going to sleep), on the next day I feel noticeably nervous/
anxious/restless/worse than after drinking a few cups of coffee.
I do know that the training affects the nervous system, I get vivid
dreams, too, but this kind of side-effect was unexpected.
I am wondering whether it is my own nervous system that overreacts
like that or maybe other people experience similar things?

[Mr. Menesus]

I've never experienced this, in fact, quite the oppositve (n-back has a meditative and focusing effect). Perhaps this is specific to how you are approaching n-back...

How do you train? What kind of n-back are you doing and how many sessions/trials per session? What is your diet like?

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[Arkanj3l]

An upregulation of norepinephrine?

We're still fighting against our normal regulatory tendencies. Perhaps
the dopamine being released during N-Back is treated as excess by the
body and thus converted in norepinephrine, a stressor horomone/
transmitter.

[Pontus Granström]

That you get vivid dreams has to do with the increased actitvity in a brain area that is active during dreaming, I also get vivid dreams especially after high N position n-backing. For me it was something positive
since I find it interesting to know what I dream about. However I get the opposite effect in terms of anxiety. Perhaps you experience n-backing as stressing, which it is, especially during higher n-levels, perhaps
it's just a matter of adaptation. Executive functions test like stroop during time pressure (less and less time to complete the task) is used as physiological valid way to measure stress tolerance, it's used in
the military for this purpose as well as screening for psychopathic traits (using a modified test).

[Pontus Granström]

Here's an article with this method to induce mental stress http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/54/1/102.pdf

[N-back trainee]

Currently I'm doing sound1-sound2-position-color 2-back. But it seems
to happen on any level. I have tried to limit the number of sessions
and see whether that would help, but no - even after doing 5 sessions,
I still get the anxiety.
I do the training before sleep since research says it's most
beneficial to get sleep after that, so that the information does not
get somehow "overwritten" by some other experiences in the days and
the brain has time to sort things out first.
I guess it must be my type of nervous system ... slightly more prone
to stress.

[N-back trainee]

I guess it's still worth it since my IQ went up 7 points.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:22 AM, N-back trainee <smi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess it's still worth it since my IQ went up 7 points.

On what test?

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[N-back trainee]

I used this test http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq-tests.php

It used to be free, not anymore ...

[Gwern Branwen]

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:40 PM, N-back trainee <smi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I used this test http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq-tests.php
>
> It used to be free, not anymore ...

When did you take the 2 tests? What were your specific scores? How
much did you improve on DNB between the 2 tests?

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[Jake]

Some people respond to things differently, even if they have the same
brain receptors. It's rarely noted, but there's like up to like 23
genetic variations among 10,000 people for even ONE receptor (I think
there's one receptor like that anyways). Overall there's probably more
than 10,000,000 possible genetic combinations for the brain, not
counting the practically infinite variations in growth, chemical
exposure, stimuli exposure etc.

I think it might help to understand this way:

There's five people:

One can drink one alcoholic drink and gets nauseous and flushed in the
face.

One has two glasses of wine and becomes tipsy and stops drinking.

One has a shot of whiskey every morning.

One becomes drunk and becomes sexually promiscuous.

The last can't stop drinking when they start, and will pursue a BAC
of .1 or higher, to violence during withdrawal.

Does this mean there's anything different about the alcohol? It's not
the best analogy, but I think it demonstrates the concept I'm trying
to convey.

[Paul]

Interesting side effect, but I wonder why you wait to do N-back just
before bed. Seems like that is the time you should be winding down,
not revving your concentration.

My time for n-backing is first thing in the morning and sometimes for
a concentration stimulator before competing in online chess.

Paul

On Jan 31, 12:03 am, N-back trainee <smie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[likeprestige]

Paul,

Title: Sleep accelerates improvement in working memory performance

Link: http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/10145.pdf

[whoisbambam]

likeprestige,

i really need to learn how to read this stuff some day.

So it seems that there was no statistical improvement until after
sleep.

it seems that there was no significant advantage between training
working memory at 8am or 10pm--by the next morning, the improvements
were about the same.

correct?

So there is no need to train right before sleep.

He could train in the morning so it doesnt give him this anxiety as it
wont make a big difference in the WM results????

How much of a benefit was it to train at 8am vs 10pm, 'effect' wise (i
recently heard there is something called ??? effect (i forgot the
adjective) that determines whether something may or may not be
worthwhile. In other words, something like 0.2 is insignificant in a
real-world scenario, but effect 0.8 is a real-world difference--if
anybody would like to explain this for ignorants like myself, please
do so)

[likeprestige]

I wish I were in the position to give you specific advice but I'm not.

The study, although not a long study, makes a contribution by simply
saying that 'immediate' (?) sleep after n-back training positively
effects training improvements in a similar way as it does in skill
acquisition just before sleep.

Why?

- After performance of a particular activity I believe the headlights
are on in the brain (where - depends in the activity) for several
before the battery runs out. I guess it's better that the headlights
are on while you sleep rather than while you are awake considering
that sleep is the time for consolidation of memories, car repair and
upgrades. So, the potential for training improvements are more likely
to be realized (fully?) because it's on the brain's mind for extended
period of time when it's in this mode (gotta change the oil, clean the
car, fill up with petrol, put air in the tires, fix the engine that's
been making strange sounds all day, etc, etc).

- If anyone has any specific knowledge about this, please elaborate
(I'm no expert).

- bambam, if you want specifics, I advise you to research articles in
relation to skill acquisition and sleep rather than n-back and sleep,
then just connect the dots.

Hope that helps somewhat (shady I know)

[Pontus Granström]

I remember when I think about it that I also used to do n-backing before sleep, but found it hard to get to sleep and so on. N-backing requires high focus and beta/gamma brainwave activity, while sleep is characterized
by theta and delta activity. Beta activity is also dominant when anxious. The easy solution to your problem is to do n-backing at a different time, start to do some cardio training and perhaps get a delta brainwave program
to ease your anxiety. It has been show (http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.6196) that delta binaural beats over 60 days decreases anxiety, IGF-1, and dopamine. You might also want to
check wikipedia for more references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

[likeprestige]

Title: Sleep Selectively Stores Useful Memories: Brain Evaluates
Information Based on Future Expectations, Study Suggests
Date: Feb 1

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110201172603.htm

On Feb 1, 2:24 pm, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:

[M Back]

This is my personal experience after 6 months of avg. 3 days/ week, 15-20 sessions/day , I'm on level 7 in dual and 4 in quad. N-Back is amazing and Its the tool for extraordinary allertness and feel it has given a kick in my attitude towards problem solving techniques. here is what I want to share:

I've experienced stress level increase and negative behavior (at socially acceptable level), I expect people to be error free  and feel colleagues are doing too many silly mistakes around me which is beyond my toleration now a days. I've reduced weight due to stress.

I have my own conclusions based on my current stress level and don't blame N-Back for direct side effect: Please correct/ comment at any point if some one has different opinion.

1. Initially I used to do sessions right before sleep and since at a point while reaching the peak of that day after 15-20 sessions habitually used to sleep in room keeping my device aside (I practice on tablet/ mobile in flight mode). This resulted in a calm and very deep sleep with alert, active and happy upcoming day. I assume I used to reach in rapid eye movement sleep in comparatively shorter duration. Very recently due to change in lifestyle I am finding time among busy job hours and doing sessions in break between work where the following activity is sudden rush for the task in job. I assue this change has to do something with stress.

2. I will conclude NOT to do sessions in deep regret, deep sadness or after any quarrels etc... in short in highly negative moods. Which may result in - Stressfull session + sad social circumstances = Stress and negativity after sessions (may be with longterm effect)

3. Happy moods + before sleep sessions + Successful new level rise in sessions + immediate sleep = Best Result ( Improvement in I. Q and positivity in attitude)

I am a Engineering Post graduate and not related to neuroscience and medical field. Please correct me with your expert interpretations here.

[Brain Train]

i expect the overall effect to be just other way around because:

healthy frontol lobes are required to control emotions and dnb is expected to strengthen at least some part of frontol lobes.

However, during the exercising days frontal lobes may act as weak due to tiredness/over-exertion, just like we may feel physically weak after strenuous weight training temporarily.

but after the resting period, we come out stronger than we were before exercise regime.

so, take a rest of few days or weeks and see how do your emotions appear as compared to the days when you had never done any dub.

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[Rotem Segev]

I also had high anxiety levels while training. No mater what I did, I couldn't taper it down... I do have a history of GAD but I was pretty calm at that point in my life when I started to train. It definitely did something to me... I remember the scalp muscles tense on my off hours of DNB, like I could really feel the blood flaw increase or whatever it was. Powerful exercise IMO, just couldn't tolerate the anxiety it yielded.

[Brain Train]

there is one thing which will definitely help you win over your anxiety, you can gain control over it, and it will reduce slowly to zero! 

there is no money to be paid, no game to be downloaded, no equipment to be bought.

not only this, you will also benefit in many other dimensions of brain performance and enhancement of its capabilities!

BUT

 it requires big sacrifice- sacrifice of desire to see the effects immediately!

it needs persistence- ability to keep going, even when you are not seeing any improvement or very little improvement. it requires you to suspend your analysis for few months (or at least action based on this analysis) about the possible time it will likely take to bring enough result or positive changes.

while none of this would seem impossible or too tough to achieve, in today's fast paced world where we rarely need to exercise patience, it is actually pretty hard to achieve, more than you are likely to realise before you actually begin.

when nothing is coming back in return of your effort, it requires either deep understanding which provides you reasons to believe, or deep trust, in order to continue doing which resemble very closely to a wasteful activity- wasted time and effort.

it appears easy and it is easy if you are not in hurry.. if you are carrying it out as an experiment (just to see what will happen...), but if you are restless... it will not only become difficult, it will seem like impossible and on top of it, the progress will also become slower (improvement in skill gained per unit of effort spent).

It has to be tried when you are not in hurry.. whatever time of the day it may be. you have to choose a time when you are most relaxed..

just 10 minutes a day for about 100 days are enough to directly see it's effect personally.

then you will have proof, you don't need your analysis, you don't need convincing from me or someone else.

even though, 10 minutes a day for 100 days may appear nothing to get a glimpse of something magical, most of the people will realise very soon how much over estimation they do of their capabilities, of their control over their lives, of their ability to meet even as small a commitment as 10 minutes/day consistently over a period of time. even if it gives flexibility to choose any slot over the course of the day!

this magical exercise is 'Meditation', more specifically 'mindfulness meditation' or Vipassana.

certain improvements require to carry out exercises which are like trekking/climbing mountain... slow, step by step process. while one may wish to jump to mountain peak in one step (and gain the benefits quickly), it is unrealistic expectation. one may keep looking for ways to reach there faster, even if he finds some way, like a helicopter, or rope way or horse back.. he will miss the key benefits.

stop for a while and note down the reasons consciously and with full awareness and honesty- why you are not going to give it a try despite very high ROI (return on investment)  if you have not decided to start on it!

[polar]

Archangel, Rotem, N-back trainee: if anything, n-back improved my mood (without history of mood problems) - it was only after abrupt stop I experienced kind of withdrawal moods:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/brain-training/gV1E49mIlO0/TbG2k7-6ENMJ

[M Back]

This is the catch it seems.. relaxation time has to do something with this.
Howevere in continuation with your following suggestion for Vipassana i have something to ask here:
Will you please descriminate between the mindfulness meditation practice and Quad N Back sessions..?
Possibly designing one application/ game slightly difgerent thn Quad N Back i.e. Increasing more parameters/ dimensions (increasing after parameters after quad - adding more parameters i.e. more thn sound, shape, color, positions..plus x,y,z) which shall have their information/ realisation in varied areas of brain..will N backing with this app shall not have same effect which meditation does to brain? Is meditation a passive way? And Quad N Back active way??

[diff...@yahoo.com]

Since cognitive training has been demonstrated to alter some functional brain networks, and since there have also been demonstrated differences in functional brain networks between individuals in different test groups, separated by age, gender or especially pathological conditions, it seems quite possible that training might effect you differently because of your own intrinsic individual difference.  In other words the effects you observe could in fact be effects of the training on you, even if others don't experience them. 

[Mercel]

My experience is similar. Perhaps it did not change my intelligence, but I'm still convinced it changed something about my cognition.

After I discovered n-back and seriously started to train, I felt that I increasingly gained control over my own emotions and thoughts. It gave me some peculiar feelings, my mind literally began to feel "heavier" and because of this, I became much less sensitive to my surroundings. Instead I sort of began to feel that I was in control, that I could control when I wanted to be sensitive vis-à-vis my environment, when I wanted to sense more deeply, when I wanted to just let go and so on. 

Other people just didn't affect me the same as they did before.