Encouraging results after Combination N back

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

Mode: combination variable N back
Results: the same increases in cognition i experienced when beginning
N back. Increased verbal fluency from my previous plateau, as well as
sharpness of thought and creation of humor and new ideas. Increased
numeric fluency as evidenced by improving faculty with number theory
problems over very short time frames.

In short, I think that people here should give this mode a try. I am
very excited by my results after only 2 days of training.

[Pontus Granström]

And more exactly, which configuration did you use?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.

[Pontus Granström]

Congratulations on your ability to do number theory, it's the queen of mathematics as Gauss himself would have put it.

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

when I am done with my configuration, my screen says triple
combination n back. simple go to DNB, then enable variable and
combination modes. There are 5 possible stimuli to recall. set time is
3.5 seconds per stimulus.

On Jun 20, 6:42 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Congratulations on your ability to do number theory, it's the queen of
> mathematics as Gauss himself would have put it.
>

> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > And more exactly, which configuration did you use?
>
> > On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 5:19 AM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <
> > davidsky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Mode: combination variable N back
> >> Results: the same increases in cognition i experienced when beginning
> >> N back. Increased verbal fluency from my previous plateau, as well as
> >> sharpness of thought and creation of humor and new ideas. Increased
> >> numeric fluency as evidenced by improving faculty with number theory
> >> problems over very short time frames.
>
> >> In short, I think that people here should give this mode a try. I am
> >> very excited by my results after only 2 days of training.
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at

> >>http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[praetorius]

Thanks, gonna try this configuration. Stuck on dual-8-back for almost
a year without noticing any changes in my mental abilities whatsoever.
I only noticed something when I progressed around 3- to 5-back a long
time ago. Since then I only witness the dull mediocrity of mind.

On 20 Jun., 17:47, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > >>http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

praetorius,

firstly, thanks for the feedback on reaching D8B. It has been a major
hypothesis of mine that people seem to stop adapting after reaching
around this level. I have previously put forth that after reaching DNB
6 or 7, even 5, we should move to different modes for more rapid
results. My results really slowed down around D5B. I made it to D6B
sometimes but gains become rather dubious.

secondly, i applaud you for trying this novel mode. I posted some
research in the group awhile back, which i just ran across recently.
It confirms that combination mode "should" increase processing speed,
which is a major aspect of IQ (according to yet another study). Hence
I have noticed improved WM/processing speed of items stored in WM. But
this is exactly what we train when we do Tri Combination V nback AKA
TCV.
This deserves much more attention than it has gotten from this group.
The results I have noticed after just a few days are astounding, they
remind me of when I first began DNB. I implore everyone to spend a
few days with this mode.

> > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequoted text -

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

and here is the thread I referenced with the study about task
switching. It sounds strange, but if you think about it, combination
Variable N back *must* be task switching, and the results of the study
must therefore apply.
http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/8ded6bf4a73e321d/8d267ea2dca9434c?lnk=gst&q=combination+#8d267ea2dca9434c

On Jun 20, 1:27 pm, praetorius <joerg.schwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequoted text -

[Pontus Granström]

Which study is this? I would like to read it.

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

The post before yours.

[Pontus Granström]

Started to do combination n-back two days ago! It's really stimulating and fun, might improve your ability to do number theory no doubt. When I studied number theory I often noticed the importance of
remembering and updating things to grasp something, this seems to take that to the max.

[Mike]

Thanks for pointing that mode out Fourth.Deviation. I never actually had tried it. I played it yesterday for 20 sessions--it's true it looks much more stimulating, I kind of got addicted to it for a little hour, and I had the same good feeling I had when I first started training at 1sec per trial--felt it was more straining and felt like I was on ritalin for the following hours (and definitely had increased verbal fluency in the following hours). that's for a first 1 day anecdotal feedback. (note: arithmetic n-back and pasat on cogfun (and decreasing trial time if possible) to me seem to also be among those "more straining, more beneficial" modes of n-back training, and they also give me that ritalin/verbal fluency/increased motivation feeling-->amazingly just after training).

I think people here discussed and seemed to agree that "extra stimulation" was beneficial passed a certain point. we discussed a few months ago whether quad and multi stim n-back were a better training than n-back or dual n-back. some people seemed to agree that quad and multi stim (and also decreasing trial time to minimum) were better (passed a certain level), and probably for one main reason: that passed a certain level you start relying more on strategies to boost your score, more than you are training working memory--and that quad and multi stim kind of prevented that... but 1/it is interesting to note that when you compare scores between different n-back modes (dual, triple, quad) using the number of single units of information you need to remember, scores are surprisingly accurately equal, in my case (I'd like to know if this is the case for others). this doesn't necessarily go against the idea that multi stim modes are a better training--it could simply mean that most of the strategies can be applied to most modes (eg chunking, finding meanings for acronyms, drawing zig zags), and the "strategy factor/component" remains constant, if you play at your max in all modes. 2/it could be that training at higher single or dual n levels with strategies still could be a good training (if you really concentrate on it), but simply that people get bored playing the same game over and over. it's still possible that afterall training with strategies could be just as good, but introducing new variables and making the game exciting and more engaging could force people to concentrate again--and really strain wm again. -->maybe this is the main reason why "extra stimulation" modes will give the ritalin feeling again to someone who trained for a long time at dual n back.

but there is also another possibility: that combination n-back truly is better than quad and multi stim because there is an extra task: you have to manipulate information stored in wm, multi task more, as you pointed out. maybe that with it we are training not just wm storage capacity but also the central executive (manipulate information), more. -->this is complete speculation of course. but it's not uninteresting. by following that logic, new, better n-back modes could be invented, targeting other important components of intelligence. eg decreasing trial time to minimum could (maybe) train processing speed.

still in the absolute speculation zone-->maybe one of those supposed fundamental components of intelligence would be cross-referencing information--ie 1/quickly finding metaphors for new information (for increased storage capacity/compression-->mnemonics), or better: 2/quickly finding how new information relates with old (long term memory) and combine them (for increased comprehension-->true mastery of a topic, outputting "comprehensive theories" and insights). an n-back mode could be designed to train such a thing. what made me think of that-->the strategy of "quickly finding meanings for chunks of 3 letters" in a way trains that "cross-referencing" component of intelligence. I think it trains a form of mnemonics and a form of creativity for finding meanings to acronyms (anchoring new info in old and compressing it). in a way but it's true that, in theory, such a strategy doesn't train raw working memory storage space, and that's why discussions here in general went in the direction that they should be avoided. but maybe some strategies train other important components of intelligence. it's interesting to think though that it should be possible to train storage and strategies at their maximum, with sufficient motivation. again, this is complete speculation. I guess some experiments could be set up to test all that. for now I will simply train at all modes and try to maintain maximum motivation even for dual n-back!

I have to say I can't wait to see if combination n-back brings me more benefits. I'll give some anecdotal feedback again in a few days and weeks.

[Mike]

Thanks for pointing that mode out Fourth.Deviation. I never actually had tried it. I played it yesterday for 20 sessions--it's true it looks much more stimulating, I kind of got addicted to it for a little hour, and I had the same good feeling I had when I first started training at 1sec per trial--felt it was more straining and felt like I was on ritalin for the following hours (and definitely had increased verbal fluency in the following hours). that's for a first 1 day anecdotal feedback. (note: arithmetic n-back and pasat on cogfun (and decreasing trial time if possible) to me seem to also be among those "more straining, more beneficial" modes of n-back training, and they also give me that ritalin/verbal fluency/increased motivation feeling-->amazingly just after training).

I think people here discussed and seemed to agree that "extra stimulation" was beneficial passed a certain point. we discussed a few months ago whether quad and multi stim n-back were a better training than n-back or dual n-back. some people seemed to agree that quad and multi stim (and also decreasing trial time to minimum) were better (passed a certain level), and probably for one main reason: that passed a certain level you start relying more on strategies to boost your score, more than you are training working memory--and that quad and multi stim kind of prevented that... but 1/it is interesting to note that when you compare scores between different n-back modes (dual, triple, quad) using the number of single units of information you need to remember, scores are surprisingly accurately equal, in my case (I'd like to know if this is the case for others). this doesn't necessarily go against the idea that multi stim modes are a better training--it could simply mean that most of the strategies can be applied to most modes (eg chunking, finding meanings for acronyms, drawing zig zags), and the "strategy factor/component" remains constant, if you play at your max in all modes. 2/it could be that training at higher single or dual n levels with strategies still could be a good training (if you really concentrate on it), but simply that people get bored playing the same game over and over. it's still possible that afterall training with strategies could be just as good, but introducing new variables and making the game exciting and more engaging could force people to concentrate again--and really strain wm again. -->maybe this is the main reason why "extra stimulation" modes will give the ritalin feeling again to someone who trained for a long time at dual n back.

but there is also another possibility: that combination n-back truly is better than quad and multi stim because there is an extra task: you have to manipulate information stored in wm, multi task more, as you pointed out. maybe that with it we are training not just wm storage capacity but also the central executive (manipulate information), more. -->this is complete speculation of course. but it's not uninteresting. by following that logic, new, better n-back modes could be invented, targeting other important components of intelligence. eg decreasing trial time to minimum could (maybe) train processing speed.

still in the absolute speculation zone-->maybe one of those supposed fundamental components of intelligence would be cross-referencing information--ie 1/quickly finding metaphors for new information (for increased storage capacity/compression-->mnemonics), or better: 2/quickly finding how new information relates with old (long term memory) and combine them (forincreased comprehension-->true mastery of a topic, outputting "comprehensive theories" and insights). an n-back mode could be designed to train such a thing. what made me think of that-->the strategy of "quickly finding meanings for chunks of 3 letters" in a way trains that "cross-referencing" component of intelligence. I think it trains a form of mnemonics and a form of creativity for finding meanings to acronyms (anchoring new info in old and compressing it). but it's true that, in theory, such a strategy doesn't train raw working memory storage space, and that's why discussions here in general went in the direction that they should be avoided. but maybe some strategies train other important components of intelligence. it's interesting to think though that it should be possible to train storage and strategies at their maximum, with sufficient motivation. again, this is complete speculation. I guess some experiments could be set up to test all that. for now I will simply train at all modes and try to maintain maximum motivation even for dual n-back!

I have to say I can't wait to see if combination n-back brings me more benefits. I'll give some anecdotal feedback again in a few days and weeks.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Pontus Granström <lepo...@gmail.com> wrote:

[whoisbambam]

it is pure speculation on my part, but i do think this thinking is
correct.

I also believe that if you have put in the hours of dnb to go from
dnb2 to dnb6 +-1, that the benefits may plateau

I believe that one MUST continue to try things that are taxing to the
brain, and possibly be best with NOVELTY.

This can be achieved probably thru combination nback, for instance.

Other ways may be to take up interests that you are not good at.

If you are bad at mathematics, practice and become proficient.

If you dont know how to play music, learn the piano, keyboard, guitar,
etc.

I think by continuously taxing the brain and bringing in novelty
(something you are not good at and dont do much of) may be the best
'combinatorial' approach.




On Jun 21, 6:57 pm, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext -

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

I am excited to see that people are trying the mode. It's good that
you are noticing the same things I am. The next mode I want to try is
arithmetic mode. I quit playing it at one point because it required me
to type in fractional answers and there simply wasn't enough time. But
if you say that it is a good mode, maybe I will try it out.

Also, I am noticing the same effects as you, especially in terms of
verbal fluency and hyperfocus. I also notice an ability to quickly
dissect and reassemble information that is put to me, i.e. in
conversation or through reading. Hopefully this mode will continue
causing adaptations for a longer period of time before a plateau is
reached.

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

I have just reached Combination Variable 4 Back by fluke. At this
point, it is really an exercise in futility. I believe we have found
the holy grail of DNB. :D

On Jun 22, 7:09 pm, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Brizor93]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Are the
results good or bad?

On Jun 25, 5:32 pm, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>

[Mike]

I reached Combination Variable 5 Back earlier today, after 6 days of relatively intensive training. the mode is addictive. I can maintain focus much better than before, it's very exciting. I don't know if I'm going to go much further than that. I definitely get increased verbal fluency and the "ritalin feeling", and yesterday night I wanted to see if my scores were going to be better at quad n-back--> and incredibly yes I did reach my best score ever (reaching quad 5 back at 1sec per trial, although I couldn't sustain 60% on that level). so the combination mode yes really is something like the crack cocain of n-backs. thanks for pointing it out.

yes I also found BW's arithmetic mode unusable because of fractions. I was using cogfun.net's pasat game, currently working on pasat4, but extremely hard to maintain focus, and I stumble/get blanks very often.

I'm checking now the config.ini file and it's possible to customize the arithmetic mode. I will try to use this mode soon, probably just disabling divisions for now.

[Psionic]

Mike, what is your training results now? I am very excited about this
method and definitely going to try this full term if I master
D'6'B.. but when I tried combination I was little confused about, for
example vis & n-vis, unfortunately I cant find any tutorial or
instructions how to play combination n back, hopefully here in this
group will be some instructions

[Pontus Granström]

vis -> n-vis means that the current visual object for example a L matches the visual object n steps ago (L). vis - n-audio means that the current audio matches the visual object n steps ago, for example audio L matches the visual representation of L, audio n -> visual n means that the visual object for example A matches the audio of A n steps ago. It might be written the other way around
in the help text I do not remember.

I press J when the audio matches the visual, I press S when visual matches visual and I press D when visual matches audio. Position is A and sound match is L. Hope this helps.

[Psionic]

Yes, seems I understand, the spelled "L" simply match visualised L n
rounds ago.
Till your explanation I cant seem to find a difference between for
example quad n back and combination
and why keys hold so complex descriptions and not so simple audio,
visual, color, text..
Thanks.. Also I am trying to go for example 15 sessions of dualNback
(@5back) and then try
some sessions of triple n back (@2back) and find it very challenging
to adapt back to lower
level of nback although the number of stimuli I find very entertaining
and I am
very very concetrated and somewhat full of joy with more parallels to
remember..

[Pontus Granström]

The thing is that it can cross layers. The visual layer can cross into the audio layer. If someone says L and you were shown a L n steps ago it's a match, if you heard a L n steps ago and are shown a L (and audio says K)
 it's a Audio to Visual match. But not a Audio to Audio match (ordinary n-back ).

[Pontus Granström]

It's much more demanding in terms of focus since it requires total separation of stimuli and conflict resolution/attentional control, and also more speed, you need to act faster, but still stay calm. Very good training indeed.

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

Mike

what do you mean by intensive training? how many sessions did you do
per day to reach that level?
I am having trouble at C.V.NB 4, my average is 3. It seems almost
impossible to do C.V.4B, i cant imagine 5. I've been training this
mode about 2 weeks, but just started doing daily sessions 3 days ago
of about 30 mins, which is "intensive" for me. you are enabling
variable mode as well right

> >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[Mike]

Psionic, did you get it going? it's confusing at first, you have to dive in and after getting it right a few times it will become more and more automatic. -->before you start a game you can try to visualize the 2 case scenarios (a imagine pressing the keys accordingly): a letter is shown that matches the n-back sound, and vice versa. 

it took me a while to get used to those new keys. I actually find Dual combo n-back harder than Tri, because with Tri I get more points from just getting the standard dual n-back game right, which I practiced for months and months now. so I actually get lower scores on dual combo than tri combo. I've been practicing at dual combo most of the time in the past week. -->tell us if you feel changes in your thinking after training at it.

Fourth.Deviation, no I don't use Variable n-back. I guess that is another thing that I should try! ...I just tried it for a dual n back game and it does add a good layer of difficulty. there you go I will train with Variable n-back levels ON now! thanks for making me explore all those new modes. I trained for 8 days in a row and then stopped for 5 days. "relatively intensively"-->probably around 20 sessions per day maximum, sometimes much less. I use 33 trials per round, and 10 quarter sec for now (and probably will set it to 4 later on in a few weeks maybe when I become really used to Combo n back).

the next step that will be especially beneficial for me I think will be arithmetic n-back in BW. cogfun's pasat has been a great training for me I feel. it's really challenging. mental calculations are afterall one of the most important pieces of crystallized intelligence you can get, and I feel I've been missing out on that, it's good to practice my numbers. did anyone practice arithmetic n-back or pasat?

==

PS Fourth.Deviation can you send here the link to that pdf on n-back you were talking about in another thread? I couldn't find it. also if you want to answer my posts on the Re:Jaeggi 2011 thread, I would be very curious to know your opinion about my points. basically-->do you think that all dnb is doing is optimizing dopamine receptor density in the PFC (I don't have that study but it was posted here a while ago), or you feel it's also improving other things? do you think I'm too pessimistic with the idea that dnb only optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think everyone can benefit from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible that some people benefit much more than others from the training? I'm really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training. it's possible.

[Mike]

Psionic, did you get it going? it's confusing at first, you have to dive in and after getting it right a few times it will become more and more automatic. -->before you start a game you can try to visualize the 2 case scenarios (and imagine pressing the keys accordingly): a letter is shown that matches the n-back sound, and vice versa. 

it took me a while to get used to those new keys. I actually find Dual combo n-back harder than Tri, because with Tri I get more points from just getting the standard dual n-back game right, which I practiced for months and months now. so I actually get lower scores on dual combo than tri combo. I've been practicing at dual combo most of the time in the past week. -->tell us if you feel changes in your thinking after training at it.

Fourth.Deviation, no I don't use Variable n-back. I guess that is another thing that I should try! ...I just tried it for a dual n back game and it does add a good layer of difficulty. there you go I will train with Variable n-back levels ON now! thanks for making me explore all those new modes. I trained for 8 days in a row and then stopped for 5 days. "relatively intensively"-->probably around 20 sessions per day maximum, sometimes much less. I use 33 trials per round, and 10 quarter sec for now (and probably will set it to 4 later on in a few weeks maybe when I become really used to Combo n back).

the next step that will be especially beneficial for me I think will be arithmetic n-back in BW. cogfun's pasat has been a great training for me I feel. it's really challenging. mental calculations are afterall one of the most important pieces of crystallized intelligence you can get, and I feel I've been missing out on that, it's good to practice my numbers. did anyone practice arithmetic n-back or pasat?

==

PS Fourth.Deviation can you send here the link to that pdf on n-back you were talking about in another thread? I couldn't find it. also if you want to answer my posts on the Re:Jaeggi 2011 thread, I would be very curious to know your opinion about my points. basically-->do you think that all dnb is doing is optimizing dopamine receptor density in the PFC (I don't have that study but it was posted here a while ago), or you feel it's also improving other things? do you think I'm too pessimistic with the idea that dnb only optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think everyone can benefit from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible that some people benefit much more than others from the training? I'm really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training. it's possible.

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike]

Psionic, did you get it going? it's confusing at first, you have to dive in and after getting it right a few times it will become more and more automatic. -->before you start a game you can try to visualize the 2 case scenarios (and imagine pressing the keys accordingly): a letter is shown that matches the n-back sound, and vice versa. 

it took me a while to get used to those new keys. I actually find Dual combo n-back harder than Tri, because with Tri I get more points from just getting the standard dual n-back game right, which I practiced for months and months now. so I actually get lower scores on dual combo than tri combo. I've been practicing at dual combo most of the time in the past week. -->tell us if you feel changes in your thinking after training at it.

Fourth.Deviation, no I don't use Variable n-back. I guess that is another thing that I should try! ...I just tried it for a dual n back game and it does add a good layer of difficulty. there you go I will train with Variable n-back levels ON now! thanks for making us explore all those new modes. I trained for 8 days in a row and then stopped for 5 days. "relatively intensively"-->probably around 20 sessions per day maximum, sometimes much less. I use 33 trials per round, and 10 quarter sec for now (and probably will set it to 4 later on in a few weeks maybe when I become really used to Combo n back).

the next step that will be especially beneficial for me I think will be arithmetic n-back in BW. cogfun's pasat has been a great training for me I feel. it's really challenging. mental calculations are afterall one of the most important pieces of crystallized intelligence you can get, and I feel I've been missing out on that, it's good to practice my numbers. did anyone practice arithmetic n-back or pasat?

==

PS Fourth.Deviation can you send here the link to that pdf on n-back you were talking about in another thread? I couldn't find it. also if you want to answer my posts on the Re:Jaeggi 2011 thread, I would be very curious to know your opinion about my points. basically-->do you think that all dnb is doing is optimizing dopamine receptor density in the PFC (I don't have that study but it was posted here a while ago), or you feel it's also improving other things? do you think I'm too pessimistic with the idea that dnb only optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think everyone can benefit from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible that some people benefit much more than others from the training? I'm really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training. it's possible.

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike]

Psionic, did you get it going? it's confusing at first, you have to dive in and after getting it right a few times it will become more and more automatic. -->before you start a game you can try to visualize the 2 case scenarios (a imagine pressing the keys accordingly): a letter is shown that matches the n-back sound, and vice versa. 

it took me a while to get used to those new keys. I actually find Dual combo n-back harder than Tri, because with Tri I get more points from just getting the standard dual n-back game right, which I practiced for months and months now. so I actually get lower scores on dual combo than tri combo. I've been practicing at dual combo most of the time in the past week. -->tell us if you feel changes in your thinking after training at it.

Fourth.Deviation, no I don't use Variable n-back. I guess that is another thing that I should try! ...I just tried it for a dual n back game and it does add a good layer of difficulty. there you go I will train with Variable n-back levels ON now! thanks for making me explore all those new modes. I trained for 8 days in a row and then stopped for 5 days. "relatively intensively"-->probably around 20 sessions per day average. I use 33 trials per round, and 10 quarter sec for now (and probably will set it to 4 later on in a few weeks maybe when I become really used to Combo n back).

the next step that will be especially beneficial for me I think will be arithmetic n-back in BW. cogfun's pasat has been a great training for me I feel. it's really challenging. mental calculations are afterall one of the most important pieces of crystallized intelligence you can get, and I feel I've been missing out on that, it's good to practice my numbers. did anyone practice arithmetic n-back or pasat?

==

PS Fourth.Deviation can you send here the link to that pdf on n-back you were talking about in another thread? I couldn't find it. also if you want to answer my posts on the Re:Jaeggi 2011 thread, I would be very curious to know your opinion about my points. basically-->do you think that all dnb is doing is optimizing dopamine receptor density in the PFC (I don't have that study but it was posted here a while ago), or you feel it's also improving other things? do you think I'm too pessimistic with the idea that dnb only optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think everyone can benefit from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible that some people benefit much more than others from the training? I'm really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training. it's possible.

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

i will have to check out your post on jaeggi.

I am not sure about the underlying reasons that DNB causes
adaptations, but I imagine that dopamine reception could be one. One
thing I read here is that people have harder time remembering
information in WM because brain fails to properly encode it (due to
overload). Thus improved density of receptors may prevent encoding
errors, thereby improving WM and short term memory (plausible
hypothetical).

2 I think that everyone can derive some benefit. I believe this is
like asking if everyone can benefit from weight-lifting. Some claim to
see no benefits, but if their brain is working at increased
efficiency, maybe they are simply experiencing a placebo effect, or
looking for improvements in the wrong area; for example, one area that
has improved for me after DNB is visual memory, but this isn't
mentioned much by anyone.

People saying they experience no benefits are in my opinion, like
people who don't notice they have gotten taller. Also, put those same
individuals on variable combination mode, and im sure that they will
experience gains. pure DNB lacks the rigor of the more complex modes,
which are implicitly shown to elicit more adaptations.

> optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think *everyone* can benefit

> from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible

> that *some people benefit much more than others from the training*? I'm

> really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came
> to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the
> effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it
> should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training.
> it's possible.
>

> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <davidsky...@gmail.com

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hide quoted text

[Mike]

Alright thanks interesting. yes I also think it's possible that virtually everyone can benefit, and the weight lifting metaphor is more appropriate than the optimizing receptors metaphor. it would make sense that many adaptations take place in the brain in order to increase WM, not just dopamine receptor density.

can you send here a link to the powerpoint or pdf document you were talking about in other threads?

[Mike]

Ok I got it over there, thanks.

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

WM training and dopamine receptors
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/323/5915/800

Memory is based on the ability to encode information. I think the
dopamine idea is very intuitive. Why do you disagree? It says that the
brain has increased ability to bind data.

On Jul 4, 10:50 am, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok I got it over there, thanks.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alright thanks interesting. yes I also think it's possible that virtually

> > everyone can benefit, and the *weight lifting* metaphor is more
> > appropriate than the *optimizing receptors* metaphor. it would make sense

[Psionic]

Mike, yes I got almost to tri combination 3 back, exactly 2,75 (from
stats) after two days of training.. I also practice dualNback and
position-color-sound and back, and mostly I am confused from playing
other games :) Trying to find somtehing really stimulating, actually I
can feel whats called fuid intelligence, and trying to get back what
was once mine. Consider myself in past as a person with high Gf, but
as I read from some german study, fluid intelligence can be rapidly
destroyed by binge drinking, the younger the person, the worse it
gets.. I realized this after a few years of this and found myself
looking into white wall and unable to create and act as I wanted.. Its
sad that I never got these informations earlier..
So I really wonder if I can get my unique neuroplasticity and Gf or Gv
back, I dont believe I was born as intelligent, but my environment
made it from me, thanks that I can now sense what make my brain thing
on the right things. In today world I see more and more children going
to be very smart due to environmental enrichment, these children have
advantage of wondering, always playing and looking forward to new
events. Its my other goal, to change back a prespective of the world
made from previous experiences and see the world every moment as a new
place (J. Krishnamurti), becuase its constantly moving, changing inner
structures and vibrating. Its same only in mind and therefore we dont
perceive true reality. There is nothing same as the moment before, but
why is so hard for adult person to see things in this light, is it ego
whats standing in its freedom?

> optimizes dopamine receptor density? do you think *everyone* can benefit

> from dnb (if played properly and with motivation) or that it's possible

> that *some people benefit much more than others from the training*? I'm

> really unsure about that. at this point I'm totally unsure, but I still came
> to that temporary conclusion after a thorough brainstorming on the
> effectiveness of dnb. as they said in the intro of the 2011 study, -->it
> should be tested to see if certain people benefit more from dnb training.
> it's possible.
>

> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, The.Fourth.Deviation. <davidsky...@gmail.com

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hide quoted text

[Mike]

Psionic, definitely continue training at dnb! people are skeptic as to whether it increases iq, but so many people felt it had a positive influence on them, including me, at 1000%. For one thing, it wakes you up. Yes binge drinking is very bad on the brain, I read that too recently--nothing compared to 1 glass with dinner.

Fourth.Deviation, I don't disagree with anything at the moment :) I just threw in the idea that optimizing dopamine receptor density in the PFC could be the only thing that dnb does. (it's possible not, but I throw the idea in.). I don't know exactly what dopamine receptors do, but it's possible that all they increase it attention-control and not anything else. if this was the case, this idea would be consistent with:

1. only a modest iq increase (like ritalin does-->more attention control => very slight iq rise). ...ritalin and dnb seem to increase iq in the same ranges (0-10 points?), when they do.
2. yet-->people really feeling a big difference (feeling an altered state, yet little iq increase), especially increased verbality which is a hallmark of amphetamines (that affect dopamine receptors and affect attention).
3. some people feeling more "boost" than others-->because they (supposedly and completely speculatively would) happen to have quasi optimized dopamine receptor densities (-->genetic differences in dopamine receptor densities are responsible for ADD/ADHD, vs. being "normal" ie having normal attention control AND ritalin is said to elicit different responses in people, some getting clearer thinking from it (ADDers), others not(if there was initially no significant problem for them to be fixed) => these are the 2 reasons I think it's possible that some people benefit (at least a little) more from the training)

that 3/ point might completely --and especially--be wrong. it seems that all kids that trained got an equal increase from what I read in the studies. it's never noticed that some kids benefit more than others because they have a deficiency that dnb fixes. I never read that. (-->in Jaeggi 2011 the seem to say that all kids that worked hard on the task improved (and the ones who didn't improve didn't train hard or well)). but I still throw in the idea, because it looks plausible from a certain point of view. it would be easy to test informally: a questionnaire with: questions that assess if you have dopamine imbalances, and comments about how much benefit you felt from dnb on a scale of 10 points. that could be a first step, done here in this forum.

but all this being said, I'm only throwing an idea in,--> and in fact I believe right now that dnb could very well be improving other components of iq, other than just dopamine receptor density (affecting mostly attention control). I'm just throwing an idea in, for it to be assessed by others. I hope this post is readable (enough) despite the numerous parenthesis. it's good to be going over a point in written, to force yourself to assess it and see it from many angles, or to summarize it for example.

[Mike]

btw: I don't mean to brag, but I could score 88% on Dual Combo 5 back yesterday, reaching DC6B (sadly for only one game on which I scored 45%). it was in part luck for sure, and I predict that I won't be able to reach DC7B. I guess it's the same for everyone, but when I get excited and the (some) adrenaline rushing I definitely perform better. I could not activate Variable n-back on that mode, (I think because letters are shown in the center square in that mode), but I will try it on Tri Combo (didn't have time yesterday).

[Mike]

btw: I don't mean to brag, but I could score 88% on Dual Combo 5 back yesterday, reaching DC6B (sadly for only one game on which I scored 45%). it was in part luck for sure, and I predict that I won't be able to reach DC7B. I could not activate Variable n-back on that mode, (I think because letters are shown in the center square in that mode), but I will try it on Tri Combo (didn't have time yesterday).

On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Mike <mike...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike]

Note: Variable n-back works on DCnB. the number appears in the square under. it didn't work because I probably reopened BW and it erased the settings.

Psionic, I meant -->definitely comtinue with *Combo n-back!

==

question for those who know about this (I've read studies clearly pointing to this, but want to know):

ADD-->lower dopamine receptor density-->daydreamer-->(bad attention control)

ADHD-->higher dopamine receptor density-->chatty, hyperactive-->(bad attention control)

...?

[Victor Ngo]

Hiya,

Sorry for the necro, but, are you still doing QCnvB? I just picked up on DnB to try improve my learning ability at school and was wondering if you have any tips or tricks to do just that. 

Thanks,
-Victor