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On 24 Feb 2023, at 08:36, Bryan Sanctuary <bryancs...@gmail.com> wrote:If anyone copied here does not want to get these, please let me know and i will remove you and apologize for including you.Hi MarkI agree it is a linear relationship. As I say, your expression is the way I look at how various contributions from pol and coherence are related. In my program I calculated the two complementary parts separately, giving values that are independent of how many clicks are actually produced.In real experiments, sometimes there is more of one than the other, and the experimental clicks are all accounted for with a probability for each. To me this is clear and accounts for the experimental results, click by click.It also shows that Richard's last objection, dividing my result by two, is not validated. He has exhausted all his objections, but I invite him to have a go at trying to show my work is flawed.The next part to understand is the difference between polarization clicks and coherence clicks. I suggest a filter to separate them, but the important point is to show that depending on the difference between the filter settings of Alice and Bob, one is favoured over the other.The fundamental physical idea is what I explained before and for which there is ample evidence from other experiments. That is, spins decoupling and coupling occurs as a function of field (filter settings). The coherence state forms from the coupling of the two spin 1/2 to give a coherent spin 1, and this is maintained at filter settings that differ by pi/4. As the difference moves to pi/2 or to zero, that coherence decouples and the coherence is lost leaving only polarized states.That is the mechanism. I requires a lot of changes to our understanding of the usual spin of 1/2 that is measured, but it is all well based in QFT.I am working on wording in my papers all the time, and I hope that my pedagogical videos will spell things out.In the meantime, I hope you agree that your distribution of pol and coh is one step to accepting my approach. I very much appreciate your input and tenacity which helps me in clarifications and suggest better ways to put these ideas across.Thank youBryanOn Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 10:45 AM Mark Hadley <drmark...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Bryan,That was a good summary apart from one sentence.It's a linear relationship. It can't be anything else. The correlation moves from pol to col as the fraction shifts from one to the other.It's not just about combining correlations. It's true for the average values of any complementary populations that are mixed.CheersMarkOn Thu, 23 Feb 2023, 13:44 Bryan Sanctuary, <bryancs...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi MarkI now have your figure and I think it agrees with me. If we have only pol, then i get the pol correlation. If we have only col and no pol, then i get only coh correlation. The last equation says some pol and some coh and you add them. The prefactors simply gives the intensity of each.The ratios say over Ntot coincidences, sometimes you have one and sometimes you have the other in those ratios. But you never have the two together. If you filtered and collected them in separate bins then the number of coincidences are divided in those ratios between those bins. Then the two correlation are obtained separately and accumulate as the sum.If you have 3/4 pol and 1/4 coh that does not mean you multiply pol by 3/4 and coh by 1/4, it just means you have more coincidence from pol and fewer from coh.I think that is consistent with what I am saying.BryanOn Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:30 Mark Hadley <drmark...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Richard and Bryan,Yes a trivial error on equation 3. I've corrected that.And I have changed the result to deal with cases where the p and e populations are unequal.It's straightforward algebra. And gives a sensible result. Bryan was right to start with a definition of correlation. That is what I have done.Bryan,Can you follow and agree with this derivation?ThanksMarkOn Thu, 23 Feb 2023, 04:56 Richard Gill, <gill...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Bryan, MarkSorry, I first sent this to Udi and Bryan, by mistake. Another try.Bryan: When we calculate correlations we divide by the number of pairs of particles, not the number of particles.Mark: your handwritten note contains an obvious misprint on line 3 I think, but I agree with your conclusionTo Bryan again, all of Mark’s “N”s are numbers of particle pairs. In his line 1, N_tot is the total number of particle pairs.A particle pair can be of type pol, or of type cohThe two particles of a pair either lead to the same outcome or they lead to opposite outcomes.Mark: do you agree that your line 3 is wrong? Perhaps you should correct it for Bryan.RichardPS I’m not sending this email to Jarek’s group because Jarek and other members of his group are getting annoyed by all the messages about Bell’s theorem. Jarek’s group is not about Bell’s theorem, it is about the nature of time.
Dear Bryan and Richard,So I have produced relevant equations that all three of us agree on.They are simple and can't sensibly be anything else.Bryan, thank you for engaging with this so positively.CheersMark
On 24 Feb 2023, at 11:16, Bryan Sanctuary <bryancs...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi RichardYou are categorically and unequivocally wrong. The two correlations are observed in coincidence experiments and over a large number of runs and different filter angle settings, are observed as a mixing of the two according to the probabilities. Here it is
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Let's try to do this in small steps.Do you have an equation just forN_+ /N _tot at A for a polariser angle a
So that is the fraction of up readings measured at Alice for any particular angle aQM gives all these fractions but without any explanation. I think you are claiming to explain it with your parameter theta. By the way, I suggest that you give it another letter, say lambda, to distinguish it from polariser angles.
As a matter of fact, your parameter theta, that has explanatory power in an EPR type experiment, is called a hidden variable. That's what all other scientists mean by hidden variables. Your challenge is hard enough without trying to use a different language. So I suggest that as an edit.
In the previous manuscripts you claim you can (must) add the two correlations. In fact, your claimed violation of the inequality depended on that.
Now you have accepted that a correlation obtained from two subensembles is the weighted average of the two correlations of the subensembles. The data you had in your previous manuscripts does not violate the inequality when combined through the weighted average.
I don't know how you generate the numbers you just quoted to me.
Please rewrite all of this into a single, well-explained, derivation.
If you want to convince us, this is what you need to do.
Best regards
Jan-Åke
On 2023-02-26 14:55, Bryan Sanctuary wrote:
Hi Jan-Åke
I have the papers up but they do not reflect this new point that has puzzled me for the last couple of months. Here is a draft of the new part, and the links are at the end
Bryan
<image.png>
<image.png>
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 8:13 AM Jan-Åke Larsson <jan-ake...@liu.se> wrote:
Can you repost the link to your paper, I can't seem to find it anymore.
And the other correlations?
/JÅ
On 2023-02-26 13:12, Bryan Sanctuary wrote:
Dear Jan-Åke
Thanks for your question:
<image.png>
Bryan
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 4:53 AM Jan-Åke Larsson <jan-ake...@liu.se> wrote:
Dear Bryan,
Please now recalculate the correlation from your model using your new-found formula
(that I tried to explain to you six months ago).
Best regards
Jan-Åke
On 2023-02-26 10:34, Bryan Sanctuary wrote:
Hi Richard
I hope I am not including uninterested people.
With Mark's expression, I can now unequivocally answer your insistence that I must average my two complementary contributions by dividing them by two. Here are the experimental clicks
<image.png>
which show the apparent violation of BI. Here are the same clicks rearranged to distinguish polarization from coherence
<image.png>
The two equations give exactly the same result, showing my approach is consistent with experiment, and your objection is answered.
This shows, BTW, that Bell's theorem has no relevance to qm. Non-locality plays no role in the violation. The apparent violation means that Nature obeys local realism.
Bryan
On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 5:55 AM Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Bryan
So this is the formula now:
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On 26 Feb 2023, at 18:19, Mark Hadley <drmark...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Bryan,Your answer was incomprehensible. I have less idea than ever about what you are claiming. Much less whether you are correct.I thought you were going to explain the predictions of QM and violation of bells inequalities with a local realist theory. That was the bet as I understood it. To do that you need a theory that predicts measurement results and then we can check the correlations.QM already correctly predicts correlation distributions. It does so without anything spooky like non local signals. It is self consistent. An underlying explanation in terms of individual results is elusive and problematic.CheersMark
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 17:43 Bryan Sanctuary, <bryancs...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi MarkI answer below:
Let's try to do this in small steps.Do you have an equation just forN_+ /N _tot at A for a polariser angle aIn my simulation, I generated clicks as coincidences, so I only got the coincidence probabilities N_(+-)/N_tot etc. .The program could be modified to extract the individual ratios and then combine them. I will eventually do that but it was unnecessary for the simulation of the correlations. If you look at the code you will see how I did it in terms of coincidences.So that is the fraction of up readings measured at Alice for any particular angle aQM gives all these fractions but without any explanation. I think you are claiming to explain it with your parameter theta. By the way, I suggest that you give it another letter, say lambda, to distinguish it from polariser angles.The only variable is the local value of theta which is used by everyone to define the states (Greenberger, D. M., Horne, M. A., Shimony, A., & Zeilinger, A. (1990). Bell’s theorem without inequalities. American Journal of Physics, 58(12), 1131-1143.) See equations A2,
<image.png>
My work is very much not about Bell's theorem and it would be confusing to change that theta to lambda. Hidden variables mysteriously complete the wave function, and mine needs no completion. They are simply different orientations on the Bloch sphere. Alice and Bob are correlated by a common theta at the source.As a matter of fact, your parameter theta, that has explanatory power in an EPR type experiment, is called a hidden variable. That's what all other scientists mean by hidden variables. Your challenge is hard enough without trying to use a different language. So I suggest that as an edit.Exactly, and I have done just that, but without any hidden variables. I am using the language of standard QM and not the language that Bell used simply because that leads to the wrong conclusion and misleading confusion in his theorem. Bell says that the only way to account for the violation is with non-locality. This statement by Bell is now incorrect:"If [a hidden-variable theory] is local it will not agree with quantum mechanics, and if it agrees with quantum mechanics it will not be local."I hope this is getting clearer to you all. It is not easy to change 60 years of Bell's misconceptions.I very much appreciate your comments and interest. It is a daunting task, I agree. One gobsmacking consequence of this is the idea of Dirac that predicts a matter-antimatter pair is replaced with a single particle with two axes of quantization. Think of the consequences that hole theory and sea of electrons is replaced by one particle in the Dirac field, not two particles with two states each.Bryan
CheersMark
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Dear Bryan,
I have printed out your 3 articles, and have had a brief look at them. Please tell me if I have misunderstood you, but my current understanding is as follows: You have constructed a formalism, generalizing Dirac's formalism, in which you can befine a property called hyperhelicity. Using this variable and this formalism, you claim that the usual spin components are not necessarily +1 and -1, and thus the argument behind the CHSH inequality breaks down.
As I see it, the statement that the spin components are +1 or -1 is not connected to any formalism, but to an experiment, the Stern-Gerlach experiment, which can be performed by either Alice or Bob, and has two possible outcomes. Just by conventon these can be called +1 and -1.
The question for me is: Can the hyperhelicity be measured in any way, by any experiment, by any observer? If not, it is just an inaccessible, hidden variable, in the same way as the unit spin vector n (I drop the hat in this e-mail). Note that the spin component in direction a can be defined in terms of this n, just take sign(cos(a,n)).
These spin components are accessible. To me, the distinction between accessible and inaccessible variables is the important one.
Is your hyperhelicity accessible?
Inge
Dear Richard, Zeilinger, Gisin and the like really should retract their papers, which are based on the mass delusion that quantum mechanics predicts
the EPR correlation and violation of Bell inequalities.
With best wishes,
Alexey
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On 27 Feb 2023, at 17:05, Алексей Никулов <nikulo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Richard,
Zeilinger, Gisin and the like claim in their papers that quantum mechanics predicts the EPR correlation and violation of Bell’s
inequalities. Bell proposed his inequalities in order to prove that hidden variables theory cannot predict violation of these inequalities
in contrast to quantum mechanics. Therefore, if quantum mechanics does not predict the violation of Bell's inequalities, then Bell's
inequalities do not make any sense. Bell's inequalities do not make any sense, especially if such an absurd as the EPR correlation
postulated by Bohm in 1951 is really observed in the laboratory. Bohm postulated that the mind of Alice can create the spin state of not
only her particle but also the spin state of Bob’s particle. Quantum mechanics can predict the EPR correlation only if this absurd was
postulated.
With best wishes,
Alexey
Yes, I predict superluminal communication as possible!