RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO, BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Rod,

Amarante is often associated with ladies using the "dona" title.

Look on the CCA website for the manuscript for Genealogias da ilha de S. Jorge and you will find other older generations of Amarante.

You still have at least 50-100 years of records you can search on your own and hopefully you can find a link to the original settlers before the records run out.

If it turns out along the way that you find a Pico or Terceira branch, I'd be interested.

I do a lot of research for other people and myself in the Sao Jorge records and I often find people from Pico/Terceira. With Pico being only across the channel, it is to be expected, of course.

Boa sorte,

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, April 30, 2013 2:30 pm
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Hi, I am tracing my ancestry, and I got somwhere near 1800s. 

The surnames are very common in Velas, and the title "Dona" for the laddies suggest they were somehow important, so maybe I can fit them into some existent geneology.

These are the names and aproximate dates:

D. Josefa Victoria de Azevedo Bettencourt de Amarante - born 3 Dec 1847; married. 22 Aug 1882 (yes, she married old...)

Her parents were:

     António de Azevedo Bettencourt de Amarante (born 18 Jan 1808, married 22 Aug 1842)

     D. Laureana Leocadia Bettencourt de Amarante (born 28 May 1811)

Her grandparents were:

     From her father side:

          João de Azevedo Machado Bettencourt (died before 1842)

          Isabel Vicencia da Silveira 

     From her mother side:

          João de Azevedo Bettencourt

          Josefa Rosa de Azevedo Bettencourt (died before 1842)

I would very much appreciate any help.

Cheers,

Rod

-- 

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Hi Rod,

I'll check my records and see if I happened to record them.

As for Amarante, I am pretty sure I have seen people using this surname on Sao Jorge and the women were not given the "Dona" title, while others were. Without knowing more about who used it and who didn't, it's hard to say.

But here's how it works.

Firstly, it is used by either royalty and the lesser nobility. There are no royals found in the Azores, with the exception of a rare stay by someone in the 1600s who had taken refuge. But there are tons of noble families. Many of the original settlers were of this class. And I do mean class. They were surely the upper class and acted like it, just as one can imagine what that means. The women were given the use of Dona and if the family remained wealthy and important, or at least maintained ties and were remembered as having such ancestors, they kept using Dona.

There is also the use of Dona a little more loosely. This is for wealthy families who might not have any links in recent generations to the noble class. When one of my ancestors returned from Chile as a rich man to Terceira, his daughters were given this title by priests recording their names. But they had no recent nobility and so this is an example of wealth and current status.

So the question is the status of your ancestors when they were living. No doubt they descend from the nobility, at least that's what I will presume by the other names you mentioned. Sao Jorge is full of families who can trace their roots back to these settlers and noble families. It's much more difficult for this on Pico and most Terceira families. So in that respect you are lucky. One reason it's easier is the book I mentioned about the Sao Jorge families, because it bridges the gap in records and the original settlers from the 1400s and early 1500s.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>

Date: Wed, May 01, 2013 4:15 pm
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Hi Doug,

"Amarante", per se, gives a woman the premium "Dona"? Why is that?... 

I can't find the marriage of Joao and Josefa Rosa (Azevedo Bettencourt) :(

But if I stumble upon Pico or Terceira, I will let you know. 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Rod

-- 

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Hi Rod,

Not sure what you mean by building a family tree online. Do you mean with online resources like CCA? Or do  you mean posting it online?

I never post my family tree online, but not for the usual privacy reason. It's because my genealogy is so extensive that it conflicts with the fact I do this professionally. I know other professionals who never post a single thing about their own families, probably for the same reason.

For most people, posting online is a good idea, but there was some recent discussion about how people take info from what you post and use it in ways that are sometimes crazy - like when they are not even related. Then they mix up people and have sons attached to the grandfather, or other such nonsense.

I don't know if Ancestry.com is the best place. I know it's one place with some valuable tools for you. But you might have to be a member. And there is the LDS genealogy website for this same purpose.

Others have their own websites and with Google searches, it's practically the same as posting on the big websites. If you don't have a website and would like to find a way to somehow fit this goal into how I present things on mine, you're welcome to do it through me. There are things like my Ancestral Photo Gallery where you could post some of the great pictures you mention and then have a link to the genealogies of these people. I'm sure that would generate interest and possible leads to viewers looking to find distant relations. You could also post yourself as a genealogist for Velas, for instance, on my Portuguese Genealogist Master List and again link the names to a face and to a genealogy.

One thing to remember, whatever you post online will forever be out of your control. People can take the info and do whatever they want with it. That's the reason people often want to stay private, but it does go against the idea of finding relatives. So it's something you have to balance in your own mind.

I did look to see if the names you mentioned are already people I found and I came up empty. But I imagine with an extra generation, the chances go way up, since as you noticed, these names are popular on Sao Jorge. I found some with the same exact name, but from another generation or even another century.

There are some on this list who are probably the greatest authorities with regards the families of certain select villages on Sao Jorge. Marcio de Borba comes to mind for Calheta, for instance. Maybe also for Ribeira Seca. I have done extensive research of the Ribeira Seca families in the 1700s, so I'll surely recognize your families once you get that far.

There is a lady named Susan Edvalson who lives outside of the Sacramento, California area who has been compiling a comprehensive database of all from Ribeira Seca and I think also Norte Grande or maybe it's Calheta. She might not be on this list, but I have been in recent touch with her so I can put you two together, if you like.

Good luck,

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, May 02, 2013 11:00 am
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Thanks, Doug. I will check that book for sure, especially if I have another branch in Ribeira Seca, with completely different names, ie, Bello, Dias de Borba, Machado, Silveira, Avila...

My grandma died in March, and before she died, she gave me this task to do: find my ancestry from S. jorge, which is what I am doing. It has been rewarding to find new people, new stories. So, most probably I will continue my search until I fit them into a context, build a story, you know. By the way, my grandma was born in 1916 and she had a ton of photos and other records..

I would like to build my family tree online; would you advise me into the one mostly used by Azoreans? Or other? 

Thank you, Doug.

Cheers,

Rod

[Shirl Sereque]

Rod-My tree is on ancestry.com.  I have noticed some others with a person from my family with children who are not affiliated with anyone in my tree.  (I write and mention that they should look at my tree for the correct "kids".)  I have also seen matches for my tree with the children born before the parents!  (I point this out to them.)  But...I do find a lot of "good stuff" out there especially with the more expensive membership fee.  (My cousin and I split the cost.)
- Shirl -

Hi Rod,

[Pam Santos]

You can post your tree on Ancestry and make it private and you do not need to subscribe to it. LDS as Doug mentioned has an online tree also. But I wouldn't post it there in my opinion, because there is a possibility people in your tree will be baptized as mormons. I once gave a distant relative info on my tree and he was Mormon and then baptized all my dead greats and grandfather as Mormon.Needless to say I was no happy since they were all Catholic and if they wanted to become Mormon I believe they would have done so while they were alive.

--
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[Cheri Mello]

Pam S and others,

Let me clarify (from my perspective) about what the LDS/Mormons do.  I'm not LDS.  So this is my understanding.  The LDS members on this list will correct or amend my mistakes.

No one is technically made Mormon/LDS.  It is my understanding that when a living LDS member wants a deceased individual to share their faith, an invitation or sorts is sent to them (via angels?? not sure about that part).  It is up to the deceased ancestor to become LDS or not.  The living LDS member on earth does not know if the ancestor accepts.

I have an American ancestor who was a minister in his lifetime.  Some distant cousin has him in the LDS database.  It used to bug me.  But I know that in his life time what his occupation was and what his religion was and that is what I have in my genealogy program.  Just like people can claim famous people in their trees and put whatever they want, some people will list all their ancestors as LDS.  But in my genealogy research, I go with what I can find with a paper trail and what they did while they were living, not what they may be doing in their after life.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Shirl Sereque]

Thanks, Pam.  I didn't know I could post my tree for free on ancestry.com! Sure is a lot cheaper than $299.  Fortunately, I hadn't heard that LDS had places to put trees and am glad I didn't.  My Jewish ancestors, some of whom donated mucho money to  construct synagogues, would be turning over in their graves if they found out they were now Mormon!

- Shirl -

You can post your tree on Ancestry and make it private and you do not need to subscribe to it. LDS as Doug mentioned has an online tree also. But I wouldn't post it there in my opinion, because there is a possibility people in your tree will be baptized as Mormons. I once gave a distant relative info on my tree and he was Mormon and then baptized all my dead greats and grandfather as Mormon.Needless to say I was no happy since they were all Catholic and if they wanted to become Mormon I believe they would have done so while they were alive.

[Pam Santos]

Well they baptized all my relatives as Mormon

[Shirl Sereque]

Pam-

Anyway, you can "unbaptize" them?  My cousin wanted her daughter baptized both Protestant and Catholic but the minister said that since she had already been baptized by a priest, he didn't have to do it again.  So...maybe since they were already baptized Catholic, the Mormon baptism won't mean anything?

- Shirl -

---

[Cheri Mello]

Rod,

I'm not advising anything.  I'm explaining the process.

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Hi Rod,

Your comment about pictures in Terceira caught my attention. Are you saying you have some ancestors from there? If so, I would be interested in the most recent one. I'll know their ancestors, so just the most recent one is enough. Which book by Forjaz has your family? He has several.

As for verifications needed or not, in my experience, most genealogy books concentrate on particular families and so I would suspect there are many branches unexplored in the book. Even if your family was something like the Ornelas Bruges line which is just about as illustrious as you can get for Terceira, there are many branches unknown in books. I handed my late cousin in Angra, Dr. Jose Leal Armas, a copy of all his Flores, S.Jorge and Terceira ancestors and also those of his wife's side (Ornelas Bruges) and I know there are always "less important" branches that remain untouched by such books.

If you are not using a genealogy program and just a spread sheet program, I suggest you convert over soon. It's way easier with a real genealogy pgm.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, May 02, 2013 7:17 pm
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Wow, Doug! Thanks a lot for your time and energy. 

First thing comes to mind is that I am already into what you called CCA. There's where I got "that far" (for me) on my ancestry records. I mean, if I say some particular name is from my family, I say it because I can back that with facts. In the name of History! :)

Regarding the family tree online, I think I will follow your advise and ponder... until I come up with a decision, I will continue to use my spiced-up Excel book.

I surfed a bit throughout your site and I manage to detect a gap regarding S. Jorge; so as far as I can be any good, you can count on me. Let me know.

Which leads me to my Ribeira Seca family... maybe you can put me through with Ms. Susan Edvalson, or maybe you can spot them in your Ribeira Seca research, since I got into late 1700s, as goes:

Antonio Silveira Bello, son of Manuel Silveira Bello and Joana Dias de Borba. 

The only fact I got is the marriage of Antonio, in 14 September 1812, with:

Rita Inacia d'Avila, daughter of Manuel Machado? Matos? and Maria Inacia

The underscored names should be living in the late 1700s...

I have lots of pictures from my family since late 1800s in Terceira. This is my father' side; my mother' side is completely verified in the books of Jorge Forjaz (no work to be done here)

Thanks again for your support.

Let me know if I can be helpfull.

Cheers,

Rod

Quinta-feira, 2 de Maio de 2013 19:47:52 UTC, Doug Holmes escreveu:

Hi Rod,

Not sure what you mean by building a family tree online. Do you mean with online resources like CCA? Or do  you mean posting it online?

I never post my family tree online, but not for the usual privacy reason. It's because my genealogy is so extensive that it conflicts with the fact I do this professionally. I know other professionals who never post a single thing about their own families, probably for the same reason.

For most people, posting online is a good idea, but there was some recent discussion about how people take info from what you post and use it in ways that are sometimes crazy - like when they are not even related. Then they mix up people and have sons attached to the grandfather, or other such nonsense.

I don't know if Ancestry.com is the best place. I know it's one place with some valuable tools for you. But you might have to be a member. And there is the LDS genealogy website for this same purpose.

Others have their own websites and with Google searches, it's practically the same as posting on the big websites. If you don't have a website and would like to find a way to somehow fit this goal into how I present things on mine, you're welcome to do it through me. There are things like my Ancestral Photo Gallery where you could post some of the great pictures you mention and then have a link to the genealogies of these people. I'm sure that would generate interest and possible leads to viewers looking to find distant relations. You could also post yourself as a genealogist for Velas, for instance, on my Portuguese Genealogist Master List and again link the names to a face and to a genealogy.

One thing to remember, whatever you post online will forever be out of your control. People can take the info and do whatever they want with it. That's the reason people often want to stay private, but it does go against the idea of finding relatives. So it's something you have to balance in your own mind.

I did look to see if the names you mentioned are already people I found and I came up empty. But I imagine with an extra generation, the chances go way up, since as you noticed, these names are popular on Sao Jorge. I found some with the same exact name, but from another generation or even another century.

There are some on this list who are probably the greatest authorities with regards the families of certain select villages on Sao Jorge. Marcio de Borba comes to mind for Calheta, for instance. Maybe also for Ribeira Seca. I have done extensive research of the Ribeira Seca families in the 1700s, so I'll surely recognize your families once you get that far.

There is a lady named Susan Edvalson who lives outside of the Sacramento, California area who has been compiling a comprehensive database of all from Ribeira Seca and I think also Norte Grande or maybe it's Calheta. She might not be on this list, but I have been in recent touch with her so I can put you two together, if you like.

Good luck,

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, May 02, 2013 11:00 am
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Thanks, Doug. I will check that book for sure, especially if I have another branch in Ribeira Seca, with completely different names, ie, Bello, Dias de Borba, Machado, Silveira, Avila...

My grandma died in March, and before she died, she gave me this task to do: find my ancestry from S. jorge, which is what I am doing. It has been rewarding to find new people, new stories. So, most probably I will continue my search until I fit them into a context, build a story, you know. By the way, my grandma was born in 1916 and she had a ton of photos and other records..

I would like to build my family tree online; would you advise me into the one mostly used by Azoreans? Or other? 

Thank you, Doug.

Cheers,

Rod

Quinta-feira, 2 de Maio de 2013 5:29:18 UTC, Doug Holmes escreveu:

Hi Rod,

I'll check my records and see if I happened to record them.

As for Amarante, I am pretty sure I have seen people using this surname on Sao Jorge and the women were not given the "Dona" title, while others were. Without knowing more about who used it and who didn't, it's hard to say.

But here's how it works.

Firstly, it is used by either royalty and the lesser nobility. There are no royals found in the Azores, with the exception of a rare stay by someone in the 1600s who had taken refuge. But there are tons of noble families. Many of the original settlers were of this class. And I do mean class. They were surely the upper class and acted like it, just as one can imagine what that means. The women were given the use of Dona and if the family remained wealthy and important, or at least maintained ties and were remembered as having such ancestors, they kept using Dona.

There is also the use of Dona a little more loosely. This is for wealthy families who might not have any links in recent generations to the noble class. When one of my ancestors returned from Chile as a rich man to Terceira, his daughters were given this title by priests recording their names. But they had no recent nobility and so this is an example of wealth and current status.

So the question is the status of your ancestors when they were living. No doubt they descend from the nobility, at least that's what I will presume by the other names you mentioned. Sao Jorge is full of families who can trace their roots back to these settlers and noble families. It's much more difficult for this on Pico and most Terceira families. So in that respect you are lucky. One reason it's easier is the book I mentioned about the Sao Jorge families, because it bridges the gap in records and the original settlers from the 1400s and early 1500s.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, May 01, 2013 4:15 pm
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Hi Doug,

"Amarante", per se, gives a woman the premium "Dona"? Why is that?... 

I can't find the marriage of Joao and Josefa Rosa (Azevedo Bettencourt) :(

But if I stumble upon Pico or Terceira, I will let you know. 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Rod

Terça-feira, 30 de Abril de 2013 22:31:50 UTC, Doug Holmes escreveu:

Rod,

Amarante is often associated with ladies using the "dona" title.

Look on the CCA website for the manuscript for Genealogias da ilha de S. Jorge and you will find other older generations of Amarante.

You still have at least 50-100 years of records you can search on your own and hopefully you can find a link to the original settlers before the records run out.

If it turns out along the way that you find a Pico or Terceira branch, I'd be interested.

I do a lot of research for other people and myself in the Sao Jorge records and I often find people from Pico/Terceira. With Pico being only across the channel, it is to be expected, of course.

Boa sorte,

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

--

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Rod,

You keep me guessing.

I write in private.

But as for the genealogy program, I use Brother's Keeper and have done so for about 25 years.

I liked it and just stuck with it. But I can't argue with what Cheri says. Try out her suggestions.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Looking for AMARANTE, MACHADO, AZEVEDO,
BETTENCOURT, SILVEIRA, in Velas, S. Jorge
From: TheAussieRod <theaus...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, May 02, 2013 10:43 pm
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Hey Doug,

Jorge Forjaz is a cousin of mine (not direct, though), and my family goes right where you mentioned: Ornelas Bruges. So, as you can see, I got that side pretty much covered :)

I have a bunch of pictures that my grandma left me. Especially the ones related with Tomé Dart de Castro and his family, but also others... let me know.

Also I met this guy who works for a photo-shop and he has amazing footage of vulcão dos Capelinhos, 1980 Earthquake, etc. I am trying to get all the movies the guy has - he no interest in that whatsoever (!!)

What geneology program would you advise me to use?

Thank you.

Cheers,

Rod