there is no "DE Something" surnames in portuguese

[Eliseu Pacheco da Silva]

Hi!

Someone told me that she could not find anyone at my web page… after a while I realized why!!! She was looking for DE PACHECO or DA SILVA or other DE/DA/DO/DOS combinations:

 

-          There is no Portuguese surnames such as: DE (DA/DAS/DO/DOS) COSTA, DE SILVA, DE AMARAL!!!

 

As an example, if you look for a “DE Something” surname at my web page (or at many others) you will get nothing!

 

Please remember that a Sousa is never a DE SOUSA. The DE is there just to link the surnames.

 

Hope it helps…

 

Eliseu Pacheco da Silva

Researching Açores (São Miguel and Graciosa) and Alentejo

( http://gw.geneanet.org/eliseumanuel )

 

 

 

 

[Cheri Mello]

HI Eliseu,

Try to explain that to people who immigrated to America a while ago and went to American schools.  Roll call...and their names are in the D section!  They seriously think their name begins with a D and they look at me like I'm crazy when I try to explain the pre-surname thing.

But if we all did alphabetize by de, da, do, d'....then a very large portion of Portuguese people would have surnames beginning with D!  That would be very strange!

One of the tech help guys at The Master Genealogist was a De Silva.  That drove me nuts.  It IS his legal name in America and they immigrated a long time ago.  And his Da got corrupted into a De.  And Hawaii is a whole different story because their spellings really got changed around.

And I suppose people look at my name over in the Azores and think I can't spell.  Actually, I know that they think that.  When I used to write the archives, they wrote back to me as a  Melo, not Mello.  At my local Portuguese hall, they also spell my name Melo.  I know how to spell my legal name and I know that he emigrated in 1903 before the spelling change and that I carry the "old" spelling.  I just go with the flow.

But yes, searches in Portuguese databases need to be done without de/da/do/d' and in American searches, try it every which way you can!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Eliseu Pacheco da Silva]

Hi Cheri!

 

Of course you are right.

Just makes me “crazy” because people always say they can not find this and this at my data base…

I think it is worth to let them know this once in a while… they need to know that there is a difference!

When I research in Holland I do not research with Portuguese premises I do it with “hollandish” premises!!!

 

Anyway, it is always nice to hear from you!

 

Ps – keep up the good work!

 

[Ricardo Chaves]

Hi,

all that is called evolution! It has been "happening" here as time goes by! I sure would find awkward if my name was Xaves instead of Chaves or Joseph instead of José, or Joachim instead of Joaquim, etc.

 If you are registered with a prefix in your name, you cannot simply decide to "throw" it away. I am DA PONTE CHAVES, and legally in Portugal, DA PONTE is part of my grandfather's surname.

To be able to sign my name with out the prefix "DA" I had to request that to "Registo" Civil, and ONLY in the signature, not in the government system, Da is still part of my name in the ID card.

For those who have born, I would say, in the past 100 years, and their parents chose to remove the prefix from their inherited names, will continue to be a Chaves or Sousa etc. even with out it, the prefix was there for ages.

Portuguese is an evolution of Latin as you probably all know, and names, or should I say, surnames, either than those from royalty, also have certain origins. Don't have for granted that for example "Jon doe da Fonte" 400 years ago an ascendent of Jon doe de Fontes" 200 years later.

PS: Cheri, there people here still using their original ascendent names, including Mello with 2 L! :-)

  

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Ricardo Chaves

[Ricardo Chaves]

Sorry, i forgot to say,

why do I see many times PT descendents in the US adopting this kind of surname?  DeMelo DeSousa DeSilva or DaSilva etc

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Ricardo Chaves

[Dano]

Good going, Eliseu, most of the time, they don't get the prefix right anyway. Well what can you expect from people who don't know that St. Michael, and, St George in Portuguese is Sao Miguel and Sao Jorge.

[Ângela Loura]

My great uncle had to let the "de" go as part of the naturalization (and keep only 1 of his 2 family names, "by order of court"). Maybe the other choise he was given was to "change" the name to "DeLoura". But that still doesn't change the fact that he is "Loura" in his birth and baptism records. 

People should learn about their origins, including their family name...

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[Cheri Mello]

Ricardo C,

That's what I mean.  I think when the more recent people came to America and said their name was Da Silva or whatever, it is misunderstood and "Da" becomes part of their name.  Then they had kids who went to school here and they grow up thinking that their name is really "DaSilva" and not Silva. That's when they look at me like I'm crazy.

I even had one guy tell me that his alcunha was "DaSilva" or whatever and his apelido was ______.  I told him I was pretty sure he had the words alcunha and apelido switched around, but he said no, as he was a native speaker (born in California) and I wasn't.  I'm a native speaker of English born in America, but that doesn't make me an authority on American names and nicknames.

Oh well.
Cheri

[pi...@dholmes.com]

In regards the word "apelido" you will find natives in the Azores use it to also mean "alcunha" because that's exactly what I found on my two visits there. But when I inquired further, they did agree that nickname is better translated as alcunha.

In regards "da" and other surname prefixes, when I recorded my three children's births at the county recorder, I gave them as one of their two middle names "da Rocha." But since they don't use lower case in California birth records, it comes out as "... DA ROCHA HOLMES." I suppose someone unfamiliar with Portuguese names might ask me or my children about their surname "da" because they have a neighbor also with the surname "da." :-)

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

[Shirl Sereque]

Holland

I also have ancestors who lived in Holland.  They were Jewish, thrown out of some other anti-Jewish country.  Eventually they went to England.

- Shirl -

[Dano]

All that be true, Carlos, however, there still isn't a "San" Miguel, or "San" Jorge, island in the Azores. If people want to "find their roots," they need to start by at least getting the names of the islands straight...   

[Cheri Mello]

The only San Miguel island that exists (that I could find on the Internet) is part of the Channel Islands of the coast of California.  Wrong archipelago, wrong country, wrong ocean.  And I know most people don't mean that!

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[Dano]

Well, Cheri, they probably don't mean it, but, what kind of research will they turn out if they can't even get the names of the islands straight??? You know I'm on the east coast, only been to CA once in my life, but, even I know that San Miguel is in the Channel Islands - all it takes is a short walk to where the encyclopedia is kept, you don't even need own it, to use it... All I'm saying is that I can feel Eliseu's frustration when people complain that none of the surnames on his website start with DE, or, DA ...

[Ricardo Chaves]

Good morning group,

first my apologies to Eliseu for not being able explain myself the right way, we have talked off list. Eliseu, I went to your website and typed in your "query box" de Sousa (with space between the prefix and the surname) and it worked. Now, if I type deSousa there's no results. I think everything else has been already explained. Eliseu, I know its possible, webdesign is not my strongest, I'm more into networking and hardware, but maybe João Ventura can tell you that, there might be a way to add to the database some kind of link between, example ALL the de Sousa with the DeSousa, etc. then when someone query's for DeSousa, the server will consider all the de Sousa and show them in the results and I would advice some kind of introductory note for those who actually don't really know that their surname was originally de Sousa, and all other possible "conversions" Just an idea!

I am curious, in fact, have always been, why Portuguese descendents in US adopt using, or should I say, "converting" their family name, if not already been by their ancestors, from example "de Sousa" do "DeSousa"? Is it because of what Angela wrote or is there any other law? Another thing is that some family's are the only ones one can "blame" for their 2nd or 3rd so on, generations don't have a clue what their origins are, do not know a single word in Portuguese, don't have a clue what Azores are or where are at! I have a few dozen cousins over there, they ALL know where Azores are, on the other hand, I have discovered relatives of 3rd and 4th generations older than me, in the US who didn't now much or nothing about their origins, among many things, I thing life itself is a cause and only when they get older they start wondering. Yes Angela, like I said, as long one know why and how, they will eventually track down the original form of the name.

Doug, now that is quite curious, and the first time I hear it!! So US considers a prefix as a NAME? I know of course, interpretation of a Portuguese word, in this case a prefix (Artigo Defenido "DO" "DA") and (Preposição "DE") in the US has nothing to do with the one here, but I congratulate you with your effort of trying to maintain the origins with your sons names. As I wrote earlier, removing the "DA" was probably like changing a name in US. But in the ID card is still there. Do not consider this a lack of respect for the origins, its just more convenient to sign your name with out it, but the signature will always be associated to the complete name with the "DA" in it. Now my son got the his mother last name and mine after birth name with no "DO" OR DA" but he will always be an Andrade Chaves.

Now, here is my opinion about Portuguese, in our case, Azorean descendents not knowing the right words in Portuguese, like Dano says, San Miguel, etc. Have you all had a close look at a for example a Passenger list from 1800's? Its not their fault, if in 1800's São Miguel was written down as Saint Michael Island when they arrived, who's fault is it? Where is Saint Mary? Try query internet from those and many more names and see the results! Now imagine some 60 years old lady that finds some old papers of her grandmother saying her great grand mother was from Saint Mary and this lady never heard about Azores and doesn't know much about Azores Google Groups, etc and ends up in India!! Its their parents fault in my opinion, Grandparents, etc, who have not been able to transmit their culture to their descendents, etc.

I know some of you are older than me and I know some of you were not this case, but there are many still living in ignorance bit not because they want, but because they were lead to! And perfectly understand, even being younger than many of you, why you get so angry when they make these kind of mistakes and not being able to even spell the names right, its because we treasure our roots, but remember, some emigrants left Azores in search of a better life ans some went through so much they didn't even want to remember where Azores was, and with it, their history and culture was forgotten!

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Ricardo Chaves

[Cheri Mello]

Ricardo C,

You made lots of points.  Let me try to address some of them.

Why does "de Souza" become "DeSouza?"  Why did the trumpet in high school band have the last name "Vandewater?"  I'm sure it was "van de Water."  All I know is that in school, the computer programs that creates the roll sheets capitalize the first letter of the last name, because everyone knows that your name is capitalized.  As to the removal of the space, maybe it doesn't accept spaces?  I've even have kids with hyphenated names and it wouldn't take the hyphen.  I don't know if the programmers do the same thing in the courts and the Department of Motor Vehicle registration, but they may.  I'm guessing it just probably comes from an egocentric view going back when people in America were named Jones, Smith, and Brown, before we had so many immigrants.   However, I can write up list for the 100% Portuguese band director and I will write José de Sousa and he will type up and print out José DeSousa.  However, he is American born and does not study genealogy.  And you can't explain surnames and presurnames to him.  He already knows everything!  One of those types!

As for 2nd, 3rd, etc generations in America, I have a theory.  I'm 3rd generation.  So is my sister.  Growing up, my dad told us about being part Portuguese, that our ancestors (his grandma) was from the Azores and Sao Miguel.  He brought out the encyclopedia and showed us.  I think he told us Vila Franca, but I'm not sure.  Today, I believe my sister knows the Azores and I think she knows Sao Miguel.  She has no clue where on Sao Miguel and probably cannot pick out Sao Miguel on a map.  Yet we were both shown on a map and were both there when my dad told us.  Her interest level wasn't there, even though we both knew our immigrant ancestor.

As for spoken Portuguese, I have a theory on that too.  I speak just a little.  I call it travel talk.  I probably speak like a 3 year old.  My sister speaks none.  Neither does my dad.  The only reason I speak a little is because I wanted to learn so I bought a book and tape/CD and tried to learn myself.  My dad did not teach me.  My dad did not speak.  He will come to the hall and says that Portuguese sounds familiar, but he doesn't know what they are saying.  He knows a couple of words.  So why does my dad (2nd generation) not speak?  Because his dad (1st generation) didn't speak either or quit speaking it.  Why?  Got to go back to the history books for that.  People who immigrated before WWI and went through it in America, came out on the winning side, waving the U.S. flag.  We have a saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," so in America, they did as the Americans did.  Including school, which was something many immigrants did not have in the Azores.  Back in the 19teens (through the 1960s, I believe), there was no emphasis on bilingual education.  Everything was in English.  So although my grandfather and his brothers learned Portuguese first, they went to school in America and learned English.  They went home and their parents addressed them in Portuguese and they answered in English (this still happens today, with any kid..the parents address them in the native language, whether its Portuguese, Korean, Farsi, and the kid answers in English).  I know you are saying, "ok fine, but the 1st generation knew Portuguese so after his education years, what happened?"  I never heard my grandfather speak any Portuguese at all.  But I suppose that if someone dropped him off in the Azores, he would have started to speak again after a couple of weeks.  So why didn't he try to hang onto it and speak some to my dad?  Because of Cupid!  My immigrant ancestors had 4 boys and all 4 of them married American, English-speaking women.  Back then (1930s) the women stayed home, cooked, and took care of the children.  The moms spoke only English.  So my dad and his cousins did not learn Portuguese.  I really think that the language and culture get passed down through the moms due to child rearing.  Yet my dad and his cousins were left with their Portuguese grandparents in the summers during WWII.  This is why my dad says Portuguese is familiar to him.  His grandparents would speak Portuguese to each other (especially if they didn't want the grandkids to know) but not so much to the grandkids.  My dad knew the words, "leite d'vaca" as his grandmother would give him money and send him off to the store to get some milk.  The youngest grandchild (maybe 2 or 3 years old) did wind up speaking some Portuguese initially.  His parents were getting a divorce and he was in the house with his Portuguese grandmother for a few months (again, during WWII, probably in the summer).  After the divorce was settled (I'm guessing it was really the summer), he went back to American mom who only spoke English and the Portuguese wasn't reinforced.  And I also look at the immigrant ancestor, Gloria.  She was very, very pro-education.  She didn't have access to education in the Azores.  She barely could write her own name.  My dad had to read the newspaper to her (in English).  He had to write home during the summer.  She even told her niece that education was important and to learn as much as you can and get as much out of it as you can.  The only thing that was taught in American schools was English, because the emphasis on bilingual education hadn't been invented yet.

The De/Da/Do again that you mentioned to Doug:  They are kind of black and white here. You have a first name and a last name.  Is de/da/do part of your first name?  No.  Then it must be part of your last name and that's how it becomes part of a last name here.  There is nothing for prefixes in the surnames. 

I hear St. Michael, St. Mary, and St. George.  Yet, I never hear anyone say that they are from Third!  And no one says that here in California.  When I'm with the Portuguese community in California, they say Sao Miguel, Santa Maria, Sao Jorge, Terceira.  When I go to Massachusetts or Rhode Island, I'm more apt to hear the St. ____ from people there.  Don't know why they translate the saint's names on that side of the U.S.

Spelling....the problem with that is yes, it needs to be done correctly because when I do a search in the archives (or anyone does a search) they can't find the post that they want.  They won't find the post either if everyone insists on using codes the whole time too (PG for Ponta Garca).  I always type out the name in full once, followed by the abbreviation or code.  That way, the reader knows exactly what I'm referring to and a search of the archive will pull up a post from Ponta Garca.  A search of PG will turn up a bunch of junk that is not meaningful.

[Ricardo Chaves]

There you go Chery, you and your sister were some of the lucky ones! That's why I said "Some families". Also in your longer paragraph you reinforce what I said as another possible reason "LIFE" reasons! That example of moms in the kitchen and "cupid" lol, is perfectly understandable. Don't forget also the ones who somehow faced their hard life in Azores 200 years ago as something to forget and so they did.

The De/Da/Do here normally are associated to surnames, da Ponte, de Andrade or d'Andrade, etc. But you can also see them in Maria da Conceição, Olinda de Jesus, etc. These make more sense connecting names than surnames, but then, and again, its all part of our in-heritage and the way things were 100, 200, 300 and more years ago. Its changing nowadays Cheri. I myself did it with my son. No DOS OR DAS for you buddy, simple short name but still maintain his mom and dad last names.

About West coast and East coast, by the way, RI is where the majority of my CHAVES live, I don't know. What I know is that if we are talking about genealogy, as you just said, names have to be Portuguese or you wont be able to go anywhere with it! If not, Azorean descendents want to "Americanize" their names or their origin country names, fine by me!

Also, I have proof of this, not everyone, specially individuals like me, who live here, my age, interested in deep roots research, my family is huge, and as far as I know, there are only a couple with some curiosity and none really into it. And when you really dedicate some passion into this you can go far, really far. You can also be considered crazy.

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[Tish M]

Hi Cheri and Ricardo,

My story is similar to Cheri's. My parents both worked so I spend a great deal of time with my grandparents who immigrated the early 1900's. My grandfather came via Santa Maria, Bermuda, back to Santa Maria for his bride, and then to California. He and his brother kept the name de Figueiredo. My grandparents didn't speak or write when they came, but at least one of their father's did, at least enough to be able to spell their name correctly (I believe it was probably my grandmother). They came to California because she had an uncle who lived there and got my grandfather a job. He spoke better English because he was in the work force, but my grandmother went to school to become a citizen. I remember helping my grandfather study for his driving test. Since he could not read or write they just tested his ability to know the traffic signs. Somehow he always passed! I have seen records of my great uncle listed as D Figueiredo instead of de Figueiredo and some listed correctly. To say the least the name is often mispelled. My grandparents spoke in English to me, but I am sure they spoke Portuguese to each other. When I first got interested in genealogy and trying to learn a little Portuguese I felt much like Cheri's father (it was familar). I took Spanish in high school but never was enamored with the language. I wonder how it would have been if Portuguese had been offered. My Bermuda cousins all dropped the de Figueiredo and used Soares which has been quite a problem for me, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. They also Anglicized all of the names. José became Joe, João became John etc. My grandfather did use Ben instead of Bernardino and I found out my grandmother used Bertha sometimes, however I never knew her as anything but Bernardina. The Bermudians also use St. Michael, St. Mary, and St. George. So... it just depends on your relatives.

I guess my point is there is no right and wrong. Just as language changes so do names. I try to keep the names as Portuguese names and then write notes as to the changes that obviously occurred. 

Tish

sfig
Researching
Island: Santa Maria
Freguesia: Santa Barbara

[Pam Santos]

Well this might be the same reason of why immigrants did not teach their children how to speak their native language. My mother whose first language was Spanish and when she started going to school they did not allow them to speak Spanish in school and if they did they would get in trouble. She nor her brothers taught any of her children how to speak Spanish, like Cheri I took classes because I would spend every summer with my grandfather who would only speak Spanish. I did not even know he spoke English until he passed away.

Now my kids Great Grandmother who is 94yrs old refers to Sao Miguel as St Michael, she does not speak Portuguese either, nor could her mother.  She would get letters from Massaschuettes from her Uncles/Aunts in Portuguese and would have to have someone else translate them.

[Herb]

Ricardo while I understand your concerns, we are not trying to boil the ocean or cure world hunger here. We are simply trying to share our experiences and hopes with each other to learn what we can about our ancestors. It really is that simple. That's it. Herb

[Ricardo Chaves]

Hi Herb, if I said any other way I didn't mean it, yes I loose myself in writing sometimes, but the issue here is only spelling, converting names, and tracking that back will be difficult if one doesn't know that, (Example) Sousa, de Sousa or DeSousa is in most cases the same thing! And I also wanted to understand why that happens there!

And I am here to learn and share as well, and I did, example, I didn't know what you all referred to as a "Brick Wall" and now I do :-) and I hope I never "hit" one!

Cheers

On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:30 AM, Herb <herba...@verizon.net> wrote:

Ricardo while I understand your concerns, we are not trying to boil the ocean or cure world hunger here. We are simply trying to share our experiences and hopes with each other to learn what we can about our ancestors. It really is that simple. That's it. Herb

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Ricardo Chaves