Pronunciation, Lisbon vs. Sao Miguel Portuguese

[David Perry]

I'm starting to learn Portuguese and everything I see and hear doesn't sound at all like what I remember as a child while listening to my born in Sao Miguel father talking to his relatives and neighbors, all of whom spoke only Portuguese.  For instance, I specifically remember very well two words:  "legs" which my father pronounced pad-nish (doesn't sound at all like what I see in a dictionary - pernas) and chourico which my father pronounced shoo-dees.  How different is the Sao Miguel Portuguese from Lisbon Portuguese?  Are there a few general rules I can follow such as "r's sound like d's" or "drop the ending vowel" as in the two examples above?

David  

[Cheri Mello]

David P,

I'm not a native speaker, nor did I grow up hearing the language, but I did go through a few things learning about it.

The continental Portuguese (Lisbon, as you call it) is closer to the Azores Islands pronunciation than Brazilian Portuguese. But just as America is diverse, so are the Azores.  In America, New Yorkers drink their "cwah-fee" and the south would like to know how "y'all doin'. " 

It is my understanding that Sao Miguel's regional accent is much different than all the other islands.  Currrently, my biggest exposure to the Portuguese language is at the local Portuguese hall.  They have many from Terceira.  After hearing their regional accent for a year or two, I went to Sao Miguel.  For about a day or a day and a half, I wondered if they were speaking Portuguese or not on S. Miguel.  I got used to it and then I went back to the hall after 2 weeks on S. Miguel and wondered if those people were speaking Portuguese!  I can't tell you what it is that is different.  I only know it's a regional thing.  Maybe one island is more nasal like the the other.  I don't know.

The leading "r" in a word is pronounced more like an "h."  Ribeira Quente is more like "he-bay-rah."  I know that the ending vowel used to be dropped a lot, but someone told me that there has been more of an effort in the schools to pronounce the ending vowel in an effort to sound more educated. A word beginning with a "c" is a hard "c" as in cat.  A "c" in the middle is more softer if it's all like one word (casa).  But if it begins a syllable, then it's hard (casaco sounds like kah-SAW-co to me). The "s" are more of of a "sh" sound.  Como esta sounds like co-mow esh-tah to me.  The "j" is more zwow sounding to me.  I can't explain it.  And don't ask me to explain the vowels.  I really mess them up.

Anyways, those are my experiences.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[John Raposo]

The question is actually more complicated than it seems, To begin with, there is no such thing as an Azorean "sotaque", i.e. pronunciation or accent. There are Azorean "sotaques". The pronunciation of the Portuguese spoken on Santa Maria, S. Miguel, Terceira and Faial are all distinct, and the Micaelense pronunciation is perhaps the most distinct of all the island "sotaques."  There is no such thing as an Azorean "dialect" any more than there are American "dialects". The Portuguese language as written in the Azores is the same as the Portuguese written in Lisbon, just as the English written in Mississippi is the same as the English written in Massachusetts. For sure there are differences in pronunciation, some structural differences and idiomatic expressions, but the grammar and spelling are the same. Having said all that, the Portuguese brought from the islands to different places where the diaspora settled, very often developed characteristics of it own. In Fall River, it is pehr-nuj [e as in bad and u as in us] and sher-eesse (most Azoreans in Fall River are from S. Miguel, thus the er instead of the oh and the French u instead of the oy, and there is a tendency to drop the last syllable).

 

I hope this helps.

 

John Miranda Raposo

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[John Raposo]

The question is actually more complicated than it seems, To begin with, there is no such thing as an Azorean "sotaque", i.e. pronunciation or accent. There are Azorean "sotaques". The pronunciation of the Portuguese spoken on Santa Maria, S. Miguel, Terceira and Faial are all distinct, and the Micaelense pronunciation is perhaps the most distinct of all the island "sotaques."  There is no such thing as an Azorean "dialect" any more than there are American "dialects". The Portuguese language as written in the Azores is the same as the Portuguese written in Lisbon, just as the English written in Mississippi is the same as the English written in Massachusetts. For sure there are differences in pronunciation, some structural differences and idiomatic expressions, but the grammar and spelling are the same. Having said all that, the Portuguese brought from the islands to different places where the diaspora settled, very often developed characteristics of it own. In Fall River, it is pehr-nuj [e as in bad and u as in us] and sher-eesse (most Azoreans in Fall River are from S. Miguel, thus the er instead of the oh and the French u instead of the oy, and there is a tendency to drop the last syllable).

 

I hope this helps.

 

John Miranda Raposo

From: David Perry <djpe...@sbcglobal.net>
To: azo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:10 PM
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Pronunciation, Lisbon vs. Sao Miguel Portuguese

[David Perry]

Cheri, your "cwah-fee" takes me back to 1947 when my family first moved to CA from MA.  My dad was looking for a parking space and saw a guy sitting in his car in a parked space.  My dad asked the guy if he was leaving and the guy said, "No, I'm par-r-r-r-r-king my car-r-r-r-r-r".  My mom and dad thought that was funniest thing they every heard since they always "pa-a-a-a-ck thei-ah ca-a-a-ah" in Massachusetts. 

 

Back to the point, I've heard from various sources that the Sao Miguel pronunciations are the most distant from "textbook" pronunciations.  I guess I'll have to find some local Sao Miguel folks (there are plenty around here (SF East Bay) to practice with.

Thanks,

David

["E" Sharp]

We just returned from taking our 12 year old CA grandson to MA and NH.  He quickly realized that they do not pronounce words exactly as he is used to hearing them.... especially from his 13 year old girl cousin who he bonded with immediately so it made absolutely no difference to him.

 

I told him wait until we take him to Alabama to meet cousins we met on the net next year.

 

"E"

--

[Herb]

Hi David

 

I was born in Sao Miguel and still speak Portuguese with the Sao Miguel accent.  It sounds absolutely nothing like Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation. Its like night and day David. In fact many Azoreans have great difficulty understanding a Brazilian speaker.  I delved a bit into all of this when I took some linguistic courses while pursuing my undergarduate degree. I have always been fascinated by languages. Two facts are in evidence.  One concerns the pronunciation of the  Portuguese language as spoken in Sao Miguel where several peculiarities remind the listener of French. The two most striking of these characteristics are the pronunciation depicted by the letter u ( escudo, Furnas) as u in the French tu and the sound depicted in the French dipthongs ou and oi ( ouro, noite as the eu or French peu (foot), roughly the ur of New England, "Burt".  The French sounds in the Michalense ( Sao Miguel) pronunciation could be due to French influnce on parts of the island.  The village known as Bretanha may have been settled by Bretons from Brittanny France, possibly ship wrecked sailors. At the western end of Sao Miguel there is a place called Ginetes, probably so called from a famous breed of jennets for which the island was noted.  The name reminds of the French word jenet " heather" as in the English Royal House of Plantagenet ( ruled 1154-1399).  The so called French u also exists in Corvo and parts of  Madeira. The French u and eu are heard in Continental Portugal specifically in the region known as the Upper Alentejo where the families of many Azoreans originated. Some scholars say that if it had been washed up Breton sailors or fishermen or sailors or pirates at the end of the 16th century they would have Celtic speaking and not French speaking. So maybe in order to confirm or deny the theory of Breton influence we must examine the Celtic phonological system.  Having said all that David, there is no concrete evidence that Frenchmen did so settle, much less influence the pronunciation of Michaelense.  The matter of pronumnciation  impinges on that of provenience.  Lingustic evidence  however, strongly suggests that the early setllers of Sao Miguel came from southern Portugal from the Algarve region and from Upper Alentejo and it is the pronunciation  from those regions that influenced Michaelense. Still others hold to the French theory.

 

I hope this helps at least partially explain the Portuguese language pronumciation as spoken in Sao Miguel.

 

 

Herb

[Cheri Mello]

Very interesting Herb!

[Jason Fraga]

David, the Azorean accent is quite a bit different than the mainland accent. Here in Massachusetts, there's a distinct difference in accent between Portuguese-speaking people in New Bedford (largely Azorean) and Ludlow, which is just 90 miles inland (largely mainlanders).

I went into a butcher shop in Ludlow, which is the next town over from where I live. Asked the butcher for chourico, and proceeded to get a lecture from him in from of the other customers on how to pronounce it. I almost hit him off the head with it.

You've stumbled onto one difference: r's in the Azorean dialect sound much harder- like d's.

Hope that helps,

Jay 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 12, 2013, at 4:10 PM, David Perry <djpe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I'm starting to learn Portuguese and everything I see and hear doesn't sound at all like what I remember as a child while listening to my born in Sao Miguel father talking to his relatives and neighbors, all of whom spoke only Portuguese.  For instance, I specifically remember very well two words:  "legs" which my father pronounced pad-nish (doesn't sound at all like what I see in a dictionary - pernas) and chourico which my father pronounced shoo-dees.  How different is the Sao Miguel Portuguese from Lisbon Portuguese?  Are there a few general rules I can follow such as "r's sound like d's" or "drop the ending vowel" as in the two examples above?

David  

--

[Eliseu Silva]

Hi David!

 

I would like to compliment you on your lecture! It is very close to the state of the art as we have the knowledge nowadays.

 

Eliseu, native speaker.

 

[John Vasconcelos]

David,

Let me add my perspective to this subject. I was born in central California to parents from the Island of Flores. My mother had been in this country only 4 years when I was born so for all practical purposes, my first language was Portuguese. I spoke very little English when I started elementary school. In spite of that, I had forgotten most of my Portuguese by the time I got to High School. Then, a family of cousins immigrated from Flores and settled nearby and little by little, I started speaking Portuguese again.

Then within a time span of about 3 years,  I a)  Took my first trip to the Azores, b) Accepted a Job in Brazil, c) Married a Brasileira with 3 kids. (I might add that the first few weeks in Brazil, I had a H--- of a time undestanding them and visa versa). That was over 40 years ago. Now when I go to the Azores, I often am asked what part of Brazil I'm from and when I go to Brazil, I'm often asked what part of Portugal I'm from.

Adding to what Cheri said, there is no single Azorean accent. The Sao Miguel and the Terceira accents are the most distinct. I might also add that education level also has an influence. Older less educated people seem to have a more pronounced local accent  while the younger more educated who may have gone to college usually speak a more "standard" Portuguese. The caretaker at the cemetary in Santa Cruz Flores the last time I was there, had an unmistakable Sao Miguel accent.

John Vasconcelos

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:10 PM, David Perry <djpe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I'm starting to learn Portuguese and everything I see and hear doesn't sound at all like what I remember as a child while listening to my born in Sao Miguel father talking to his relatives and neighbors, all of whom spoke only Portuguese.  For instance, I specifically remember very well two words:  "legs" which my father pronounced pad-nish (doesn't sound at all like what I see in a dictionary - pernas) and chourico which my father pronounced shoo-dees.  How different is the Sao Miguel Portuguese from Lisbon Portuguese?  Are there a few general rules I can follow such as "r's sound like d's" or "drop the ending vowel" as in the two examples above?

David  

--

[David Perry]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.  The comments regarding the French influence are quite interesting.  I have a number of Sao Miguel ancestors from the town of Vila Franca do Campo (I think that's correct) which translates to French Camp.  Why would anyone name a town French Camp?  By the way, there's a French Camp in CA started in the Gold Rush days named for a similar reason. 

 

Also, the comments about educated vs. uneducated folks holds true with my family.  At least seven and possibly all eight of my great grandparents were illiterate - couldn't sign their name.  Three of my four grandparents were the same way.  Without the ability to see what it is they were saying, it's no surprise that the spoken word would easily drift away from the written word.  Speaking of education, are my illiterate ancestors typical of all the islanders?  Are some of the islands more "educated" than others?  My ancestors all came from Sao Miguel, mostly the south-central part of the island and also the southeastern corner. 

David

[MaryAnn Santos]

Thank you, Herb, that very enlightening!

MaryAnn

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[Eliseu Pacheco]

Hi,

If you want to translate FRANCA, Vila Franca do Campo, the translation would be "tax free village"!

Eliseu Pacheco da Silva

--

[Isabella Baltar]

I'm Brazilian and so my Portuguese is from Brazil, where I lived most of my life. Brazil is almost as big as US, having several different accents as we have here in US if you go from N to S or E to W. 

I have been to Portugal and to Azores (Terceira) and I never had a problem communicating with anyone. I traveled alone so I had to really speak to everybody in restaurants, churches, libraries, taxi drivers, everybody understand my Portuguese as I did understand them. It was never a problem at all. 

Brazilian Portuguese is for Portugal Portuguese as American English is for English from UK, except for regional accents. That is what I experienced while being there for about one month and a half. 

Isabella

On Friday, July 12, 2013 4:10:06 PM UTC-4, David Perry wrote:

[pi...@dholmes.com]

About education, I think you will notice what I have noticed - it depends on the family wealth.

That is at least until schooling became more enforced in the latter 1800s.  

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Pronunciation, Lisbon vs. Sao Miguel
Portuguese

[John Vasconcelos]

Isabella,

For the most part, I agree with most of what you said. I now can understand just about any Portuguese speaking person so much so that when I hear someone speaking on the radio, I sometimes have to think "is that a Brazilian or an Azorean?"  But it took time. It  WAS a problem initially.

John Vasconcelos

--

[ttco...@aol.com]

Group,

 

Though not as thorough as some of the discussion has been, here, a fun listen can be found on youtube, if you search "pronuncia micaelense".  The clip was posted by someone called Helfimed.

 

-Trevor Costa