Help with baptism translation please. searching for Maria Theresa Maciel, Pico

[Susan Schoen]

Maria Theresa Maciel is my father's maternal grandmother. I match many people via GEDmatch on her line, but since I do not he the names of either of her parents, it's hard for me to untangle who she might be connected to. 

Can someone please help me translate # 53 on the bottom left?

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-PIEDADE-B-1865-1874/PIC-LJ-PIEDADE-B-1865-1874_item1/P38.html

I can recognise the name Maciel on the 7th line down. I'm not sure if this is our Maria Theresa Maciel because I can't decipher the date? I can make out December & Octo for 1800's but the end of the line is blurry. It is page 38 of 164 with the date range of 1864 to 1874, so it's in the ballpark. Her birth year is estimated to be from 1865 to 1868 from census & death record. One census stated August 1867, but don't know how accurate it might be?  In my grandmother's family (who is the daughter of Maria Theresa Maciel) all of the daughters were baptised Mary, but only the eldest was called Mary, all of the rest were called by their middle name. 

We were always told that she was from Pico & judging by some of the trees from the DNA matches that we share in common, Lajes do Pico is probable. Other family names that show up frequently in the matching trees are Pereira & Silveira. Maciel goes in & out. 

Thank you in advance!

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

I see : Maria, daughter of Joao Sousa Maciel and Marianna da Gloria. She was born 10 Dec 1865. Paternal grandparents were Manuel Homem Silveira and Marianna Josefa. Maternal grandparents were Antonio (?) and Inacia Balbina. Note: I used modern spellings above in Sousa and Inacia. Also, Antonio's surname seems to disappear where the page bends inward. 

I checked CITCEM but it gives the birthdate in August, which baffles me. I am on my iPhone so I often am cautious on being too definitive when viewing on a small screen, but, I really see December on the first line. I'll go back and see if the birth was four months earlier with the baptism much later. Not unheard of, but more often than not just a few days apart. 

Gayle

--
For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores.

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

Baptism is in Dec. Birth is in November. Looks like the 17th but word is sinking into the page bend. Looks like dezasete but the "sete" is questionable. 

Gayle

On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Susan Schoen <susanle...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Richard Francis Pimentel]

The date is 2 Dec 1867 (You can get the year easier on the right side of the image). The father’s name looks like Joao de Sousa Maciel and the mother looks like Rosa Marianna da Gloria.

 

Rick

 

Richard Francis Pimentel

Epping, NH

 

Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande,  Bretanha, and Ponta Delgada,  Sao Miguel, Acores

--

[Susan Schoen]

THANK YOU!

I think that I may have hit upon the area that she is from, because on the very next page, I found another Maria with a Maciel surname.

Maybe cousins? Now to figure out which one is my GGGM, if either?

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-PIEDADE-B-1865-1874/PIC-LJ-PIEDADE-B-1865-1874_item1/P39.html

# 58 top right  14 lines down, the name Maciel

The name Manuel Ferreira Leal is also in the tree of someone who I match on GEDmatch

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Susan,

1) What documents in the U.S. have made you "hit upon" this particular area?

2) What research have you done on your immigrant ancestor?

You can't just use GedMatch. You have to have a paper trail to go along with your genealogy. Once you get your island and freguesia then you'll need to compare the centiMorgans along with how far back in time you are. If you have a living parent, use their DNA.

You have a lot of matches with Sao Jorge too. Some Terceira too, I think. Why are looking on Pico? The DNA is pointing to 3 different islands. You need a paper trail to go along with the DNA.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Susan Schoen]

Thank you for the translation & additional reference. I'm relatively new @ this, may I ask what CITCEM is? 

I got most of my other info on Maria Theresa Maciel from the Sausalito CA census records online via Ancestry. The estimated birthdate varies, but the only one that included a month also included a year; Aug 1857, so I was hoping that was the most accurate. 

I don't know if the respondents arbitrarily told the interviewer different years, or if the interviewers guessed, or couldn't read their own notes, or whatever?

[Cheri Mello]

You need your immigrant's death record, obituary, her kids' baptism, her naturalization (if applicable). The census records may be giving you some immigration information so you can narrow down the years.

A good "how to" in Portuguese genealogy can be found here: http://goo.gl/iSySGl

[Susan Schoen]

My GGF (father's mother's father) was from Sao Mateus, Pico. I have found multiple GEDmatch connections & trees to support that. We were always told that his wife, Maria Theresa Maciel was also from Pico, but have not found her parents for sure, but I'm hopefully getting warmer. I'm lucky that a couple of very STRONG matches on GEDmatch have extensive trees & I have been trying to notice patterns in frequency of surnames. Lots of Pereira's in many different combinations. 

I know from study in epidemiology that just because something seems likely, you still need preponderance of proof. I had a teacher that once said; "if you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras" but I know in genealogy you can't rule out giraffes. In other words, the most logical explanation is often true, but not always. 

My grandmother's family from my mother's side were both from Sao Jorge. There is evidence via GEDmatch that some of my matches connect via both sides, so there is intermarriage somewhere upstream & island hopping, probably more than once. I have found a couple of names that link between the two trees; Emerenciana Emilia Silveira Maciel (1860 - 1921) appears both on trees on Sao Jorge & Pico. I also have an Antonio Quetano Mancebo (1822 - 1894) who was born on Sao Jorge, but died on Pico, so that is a trail worth exploring. I have Maciel, Silveira & Mancebo multiple times on both sides, but I know that's like saying I have Smith, Jones & Johnson on both sides. 

If I have any connection to Terceira, that's news to me? Possibly a cousin or two, but the preponderance is Pico & Sao Jorge. My mother's father, Joao Rodrigues Crespo (1892 - 1966) was from Verdemilho, Aviero Portugal. I have yet to untangle what matches I have from that side.

I'm new (just over a year) & appreciate any help. Thanks!

--

For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/azores/5x1hJPDzqVw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

Define "Strong" matches. How many cMs and what's the longest block?

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

CITCEM is a database created by the University of Minho. They transcribed parish records. Unfortunately, not all parish records have been done. And, there are mistakes because many records are in terrible shape. Also, humans inevitably make errors. 

The record you sent was from the CCA site which shows the actual parish records that CITCEM used. I tend to use both, which is why I pointed out the discrepancy. 

My grandmother's family came from Candelaria and Sao Mateus. If I can ever help, let me know. No guarantees. Especially, where Candelaria is concerned as its records are in terrible condition and there are missing ones for several time periods. 

Gayle

[Susan Schoen]

One is 60.4 with largest 22.6 & the other significant one is 59.9 & 19.6 largest. 

& also match on 3 other kits that the same person administrates for his family, so I don't think that it's just a fluke. 

There is only one other match that is higher that was not a known relative. The one next higher is a 4th cousin @ 61.7 & 27. 

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Define "Strong" matches. How many cMs and what's the longest block?

--

[Susan Schoen]

Thank you so much for the offer of help!

This record is promising, but I'm not going to give up looking. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores.

--
For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/azores/5x1hJPDzqVw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

Susan,

Sorry, to tell you, but 60ish cMs is NOT a strong DNA match. The most two people can share in common is in the 3000 range. 60ish pales in comparison. You'll need a really good paper trail to make 60ish cMs pan out. Those matches need more work. Start with 100+ cMs or more to have success in working with DNA.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Susan Schoen]

Thank you Gayle for the suggestion to check the CITCEM. I found the same reference to her being born in August 1865 & actually found her on 17 July 1865 in Sao Mateus on the CCA. I had seen people post screenshots from GenWeb, but never knew how they generated them, so thanks. & thanks also to Richard for helping translate too. The new one that I found is prettier & should be easier. I also found a cousin who understands Portuguese, but I know that the members of this forum have had more practice and are so much better at deciphering the subtleties. 

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867_item1/P195.html

# 40 on the right

I think that it's 17 July 1865? which is closest to the info found on GenWeb:

http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=Matca&lang=en&m=D&p=maria+teresa&n=jesus&oc=7&v=5&t=L&bd=0&color=

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

The birthdate is 15 July 1865. She was baptized on the 17th of July. But, according to CITCEM, this Maria died 1 July 1885 at age 19. 

Gayle

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com.

[Susan Schoen]

Gayle,

Thank you, that's good to know of course, but very disappointing. What a roller coaster! Maria Teresa Maciel is the only name that we have known her by, which is frustrating. I was excited when I found any reference to Maciel in the baptismal records & was hoping that since that was the name that she chose that it was a significant or close family connection. Also, when I looked in the family tree on CITEM that is connected to this Maria, there were a few other Maria Teresa's & Teresa's. The mother's name is listed as Maria Teresa. 

I wonder if our Maria Teresa really had a different name at birth, but then took on this name later because this Maria had died? There are several different dates suggested for her birth in the census records, from 1865 to 1868. I have seen an even wider range of dates for other people. Makes you wonder if some didn't even know what their actual date of birth was & just picked one that seemed likely, but forgot which one that they had picked before! Sigh. Back to the haystack.

I'm going to try to get hard copies of her marriage & death certificates to see if there is any more info there. 

Thanks for your time & willingness to help.

[Gayle Machado]

Susan 

Ask Cheri is she (or Rosemarie or Kathy) can send you a link to an article on Naming Traditions among the Portuguese. It may help explain a lot about how different their surname patterns/choices are to ours. And, why you can't assume the names used in the islands are the same as the ones used here in the states. Also, how a single person could use many variations and alcunhas over their lifetime. 

Gayle

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com.

[Kathy Cardoza]

Susan

The link that Gayle was referring to for Naming Practices is:  http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~azrwgw/research-aids-m---z/naming-practices.html

Kathy

[Gayle Machado]

I knew you had it ! 😀 

Thanks, Kathy. 

Gayle

[Hughes Roselyn]

Gayle and Susan

I believe you are referring to the article that can be found at the following link:  http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~azrwgw/research-aids-m---z/naming-practices-of-the.html

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores.

[M. Stringer]

Hi,

 

A DNA/FTDNA set of questions.  Still trying to understand match meanings.  Any response can wait until home and settled after the conference : )

 

Does ‘not strong’, mean just more distant? As 5^th/6^th, etc. cousins?  Or match low because beyond a certain number of years (as shared ancestor from 200+ years before our births)?

 

Of my 432 FamilyFinder matches, the highest is 57 shared cM. No identified matches.

Of my husband’s 1500+ FamilyFinder matches, the highest is 107 shared cM (known 3^rd Csn 1R); another (6^th highest match), at 64 shared cM (believed 5^th Csn 1R).  So, lowish numbers for identifiable relationships.

 

 

Example:

From 15 years of paper research (England), one person is paper-trail verified my 6th cousin (shared ancestors 1^st cousins b 1745 and 1754).  He tested via ancestry.  Recent email from others (of our ‘known’ shared family) who matched him via ancestry said she/her mother also transferred their findings to FTDNA.  They are not in my list of matches.  

 

Customer Service at FTDNA said their results could be ‘outside FTDNA parameters’ and that even with knowing kit numbers, there is no manual way to connect/see one another. 

 

 

Marsha Stringer

stri...@mstringer.net

 

---

From: azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:azo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheri Mello

Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:34 PM
To: Azores Genealogy

Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism translation please. searching for Maria Theresa Maciel, Pico

[Cheri Mello]

Marsha,

The conference did this computer in. My monitor is going out so I'll be brief.

I don't know how much Portuguese you are in theory (half, quarter, etc). But 57 cMs for a Portuguese person isn't a good starting point. Start with 100 cMs or more. Try to get siblings and cousins to test if possible. They could have a missing piece to the jigsaw puzzle that you don't have.

I'm not going to go into your husband's English matches. He's probably not endogamous (has intermarriage in his tree).

Yes, FTDNA has a threshold for reporting their matches. So if you want to go outside their parameters, download your raw data and upload it to GedMatch and play with their tools. You will be comparing yourself to those who chose to upload to GedMatch. So you won't get the same matches there either. Kinda like some stores carry different brands of things. NOTE: Your DNA info will be out there in the Internet for anyone to see who chooses to make a GedMatch account.

Cheri

[Susan Schoen]

Thank you so much Gayle for the suggestion for checking the CITEM. I do believe that I have found the correct Maria Teresa Maciel. The CITEM lists the parents (Antonio Pereira Rosa & Maria Teresa) that are found in the baptismal record. I think that I have most of it figured out, but there are still some words that I haven't yet. 

# 47 on bottom right:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867_item1/P197.html

continued on next page:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867_item1/P198.html

& the tree from CITEM:

http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=Matca&lang=pt&m=A&i=16225&v=5&siblings=on&notes=on&bd=0&color=&t=H&after=&before=

Thank you

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 11:03:45 AM UTC-7, good...@aol.com wrote:

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

What have you figured out ? What are you still trying to decipher ?

Gayle

[Susan Schoen]

I never should have said that I had "most" of it figured out. Part of that was due to the excitement that I had found it (Eureka!) and the fact that I was in delirium @ 2:30 in the morning when I posted it. I stayed up until 4:30, but then opted to sleep on it & look with fresh eyes again this morning. 

I don't understand Portuguese, unfortunately. This handwriting is better than what most people have to work with, but I do much better with the words that are easy to decipher like the dates, because you already know which words that you are hunting for. I was looking over the list of "Portuguese Genealogy words" and found a few more like "solenemente" which at first looked like a series of squiggles. Of course, the ones that are the easiest to read are the ones that are repeated often, like "freguesia." I heard someone say that they typed out the words & put them into an on-line translator, but I'm sure that those things are pretty literal & would spit out most of my guesses. I hope to get better with practice.

I was relieved to find the date & the familiar surnames & the term: "legítima", but humbly ask if anyone can give me anything else that they would be kind enough to translate. 

Thanks in advance

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867/PIC-MD-SAOMATEUS-B-1856-1867_item1/P197.html

# 47, bottom right, continued on the next page

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores.

--
For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/azores/5x1hJPDzqVw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to azores+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Gayle Machado]

Susan,

It says essentially: Maria was baptized on 3 Sep 1865 but born 21 Aug 1865 at 9 o'clock (here's where my skills are deplete-am or pm ?) , daughter of Antonio Pereira da Rosa, farmer, and Maria Theresa, housewife. Both from this village. (It actually says that separately for each person which is a bit odd since they're not from different places. ) The paternal grandparents were Jose Pereira da Rosa and Maria Francisca. The maternal grandparents were Jose Rodrigues Maciel and Naria Theresa. The godparents were Jose Rodrigues Maciel, single, farmer, and Anna Theresa, single. 

This record is very nicely written out. My suggestion would be for you to spend time working it out using the list of genealogical words so that, in the future, when you get one of the many "horrible" records to decipher, you'll actually stand a decent chance of figuring out the record. 

Please note that I presented the information above in an order different from the record. For example, I listed the birthdate early on but it doesn't appear in the record until later. You don't need to know every single word to decipher these records, so just focus on the key words. Many of the words deal with the ceremonial aspects of the event which you may (or may not) find relevant based on your own religious views. 

Hope this is what you needed to know. However, as a disclaimer, don't take my word for it (I'm reading the record via a tiny iPhone screen). Verify the data for yourself. 

Gayle

[Cheri Mello]

On the Azores GenWeb, I've got the 3 times periods, some key words posted (a scaled down version from the word list), and a fairly clear record and a line by line translation in English. Baptisms, marriages, and deaths.
https://goo.gl/ny1kGM

[Susan Schoen]

Gayle,

Thank you for your help! 

Yes, I know that this will be good practice & lucky that I found an easy one for starters. 

[Susan Schoen]

As regards to the AM vs. PM? 

Where is says "nove hora do dia" may mean during the day, whereas they might use "noite" for night?

Kind of wild to think that with that information I could plot an astrological chart.

[Cheri Mello]

It says 9 hours of the day. I believe day "dia" is used for a.m. whereas night "noite" is used for p.m.  So if you saw "tres horas do noite," I believe that would refer to 3 p.m. in the afternoon, not 3 a.m. A native speaker should be able to confirm or not.

[Susan Schoen]

Thank you! 

I haven't even started to look for the marriages yet...

--

[M. Stringer]

Hi Cheri,

 

Thanks for your patience explaining – and re-explaining. 

 

Each of my grandparents immigrated, from four different countries.  I’m one quarter Portuguese, via my maternal grandmother.  It’s unlikely that I’d be able to influence near relatives to test – I’m the only researcher in our family.

 

Does the lower, 57ish cM just mean more distantly related?  More like 4^th/5^th/further cousins?  The FTDNA cutoff is frustrating.  We’re thinking about finding a project we could both join and perhaps the project can see and tell us what is/isn’t there.  Why more meaningful for Portuguese – the quantity of participants?

 

I’m finding plenty of intermarriage in all backgrounds.  My own English quarter includes one couple who are my 6xGgrandparents via three of their children.  FTM says I’m myself and my own 5^th and 7^th cousin.  If the couple turns out be 1^st cousins (as strongly suspected), I’m also my own 8^th and 9^th cousin. 

 

Thanks,

 

Marsha Stringer

stri...@mstringer.net

 

---

From: azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:azo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheri Mello

Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 9:09 PM
To: Azores Genealogy

--

For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

M. Stringer,

If someone had 57cMs, generally it would be 5th, 6th cousin level. However, if the longest block within that 57 cMs is pretty large it may move the prediction up higher. The predictions are made by total cMs AND the longest block. Don't ask me for their algorithms, I don't know. If they suggest 4th-6th cousins, start at 4th, but don't be surprised if it turns out to be 6th or 7th. They can NOT predict human nature. We marry cousins. So the predictions are generally off.

Yes, the cutoff seems annoying (especially if you have the paper trail to prove it, or if you are working on a theory), but a line needs be drawn in the sand somewhere. Otherwise, they will include too many false positives and you'll have to be rooting among the weeds.

You didn't define "we." No clue what you are talking about.

Joining more projects doesn't tell you what is or isn't there. Joining projects is like many people pooling their resources together. After a while, the project admins will start to see family clusters and will be able to assist newcomers in finding their island or freguesia. There's a host of other reasons too.

[M. Stringer]

Hi Cheri,

 

Thanks.  Your cM explanation really helps to explain parameters.  I suspect the lower levels are my ‘target’ generations? 

 

The ‘we’ refers to the cousin (hopefully) who contacted me.  Per paper research, she is 4^th cousin (also verified by DNA [ancestry]) to someone who is my 6^th cousin (paper research).  She and her mother are both also registered at FTDNA and the ones who are not showing up in my matches.   

 

The paper details are well-documented, and DNA would verify what is ‘known’ (unless a non paternal event is discovered).  Hence the frustration re the cut-off.

 

 

Marsha Stringer

stri...@mstringer.net

 

---

From: azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:azo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheri Mello
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 1:52 AM
To: Azores Genealogy
Subject: Re: DNA Matches RE: [AZORES-Genealogy]

 

M. Stringer,

--