Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?

[Cheri Mello]

Liliana,

Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being Catholic.  There is not enough room for all those bodies that have populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a necessity. 

The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body longer. 

No, you won't find headstones.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

["E" Sharp]

Liliana,

Not sure about the Azores, but in other areas of Europe after a number of years this is true.  My friends in Germany told me that if they wanted to continue to have their father remain where he was, they could either pay again or the area would be reused.  Not sure what they did with the remains - not sure if he ever had a stone.  I am very lucky that my for my family members in Croatia, they kept the stones and lined the perimeter of the cemetery with the old stones so I was able to find many of my family's stones which, of course, I took pictures of.

"E" 

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Liliana Harris <lilia...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?

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[nancy jean baptiste]

Liliana,
 
I'd like to read some of the books you mention....names?
 
When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there were many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were however, very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with flowers inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great pictures because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever seen!
 
Best,
Nancy Jean
 

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From: gfsc...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

[Herb]

Yes it's true. I have lived and travelled to dozens of countries and this practice is common all over the world. There isn't enough room for all the bodies. My grandfather died in Terceira and was buried there in 1940, aged 40. When I lived in Terceira I went to the cemeteries to search for his headstone or some information on him and found out his bones had been removed 7 years after the burial. In Terceira it was 7 years I don't know about the other islands. In Guam I think it was 11 years after burial when I lived there. When I lived in the UK they leased plots for a period of 25 50 or 99 years. It's the same in Australia. Paris and Rome have famous ossuaries and catacombs

[Liliana Harris]

Thank you, Cheri. (It seems I've thanked you a lot since I started this quest.) The information is a letdown, but now I understand the reason for it. I had pictured myself prowling around old cemeteries, finding clues, and doing grave rubbings. I guess not.

[Liliana Harris]

Hi "E",

This is so interesting. I guess it's just unfamiliar to Americans because we have such a new country, filled with so much open space.

Liliana

[Liliana Harris]

Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)

Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background information about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in English. The author is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.

Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, I still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since reading the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few pictures myself! Thanks.

Liliana

[Liliana Harris]

From all the responses, I can see I've lived a limited life--at least in terms of burial customs! Thank you for the history lesson--truly. I love learning new facts like this. You can be sure I'll contribute what you wrote at some dinner party soon...and impress everyone with my new-found knowledge.

Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:32:24 PM UTC-7, Herb wrote:

[Shirl Sereque]

My Protestant grandmother is buried in a cemetery in Boston (Mass.) and another lady is buried on top of her. The other lady's name is on the tombstone.

- Shirl -

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[pi...@dholmes.com]

Same happens in Hungary.

I did a search for my great-great-grandfather there and found the cemetery, but no sign of his remains or headstone (if he ever had one) from the 1860s.

But one way to look at it is also beneficial. I found in one Hungarian village someone with the same rather unique surname and it turned out to be the brother of my great-great-grandmother. I think the headstone was from the early 1900s and the fact it's still there (a very nice and tall tombstone) tells me someone has been paying for it and I have yet to track them down. They would be fairly close cousins.

Same thing for me in Piedade, Pico. I found a Leal da Rosa headstone, pretty new, and knew there was a cousin not far away. I did find them and they were 4th or 5th cousins, I believe.

I wonder if the cemetery makes some kind of notification before removal. Otherwise, I think many more might be gone if people forgot to renew.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

[Cheryl Barnhurst]

I know in Switzerland the bones are put in the basement of a church. My friend got pictures through a broken window years ago. I can't remember how long the body stays in the grave before the bones are moved to the church. Apparently this happens a lot.

Sherry

Sent from my iPad

[Mary Bordi]

Six of my ancestors were buried inside the church (late 1700s early 1800s). Probably more...those are the obits that I have.

I had visited that church when I traveled to the Azores. But at that time I did not know my people had been buried inside the church! I don't know if those had been dug up or if the remains are still there. I understand that practice was outlawed.

Mary

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014, Liliana Harris <lilia...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?

--

[Antonio Roque]

My father died in S. Miguel, we bought the plot and did a few things in the grave, had we not done that after 7 years they would have opened up the grave and taken his bones to a crypt

[Manuel Martins]

Every parish had a cemetery, the oldest grave was the first to be used, families that had means could by the grave and any family member could be buried there after 7 years, the length of time differed between cemeteries.  Some areas decomposed the body faster than others.  In Madalena for example, they used to add lime to the graves to speed the process.  Now 4 vases with liquid are added to the coffins, this is done because now a days many pass away in Horta, Terceira or Sao Miguel and by law for the body to travel it has to be inside a zinc box inside the coffin, before the coffin is lowered it is opened and a whole is cut in the zinc box this starts the decomposing process.

In the old days if a grave is dug and the body was still intact, it was reburied for another 7 years,  if it is still intact the body after that time the body it taken and put on a boat and taken out to sea where they would beat the body and dump it in the ocean. I do not know what is the current process after 7 years.

Most families knew where their loved ones were buried, some marked the graves with a cross others stopped by once in a while to drop flowers or prayed.  But people mostly offered masses or donated to the poor in the deceased name.  Visiting the grave site was not the tradition that I remember.

A paid grave can be reused in times of need or when there are no other graves available.

Manny

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[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Liliana,
 
It's Nancy Jean because we have several Nancy's on the list.
 
Thank you for the book information. I knew Miriam was about to publish her book. I've never met her but did communicate with her after someone gave her my name as a contact for Pico. She had never been before last year although she had been doing extensive research for her book. I'd like to read it and will contact inter library loan. Thanks for the name.
 
The graveyards on Pico are beautiful.....I'd also like to go to Santa Maria and find my great grandmothers home in Almagreira. I've never asked in Candelaria, Pico where the bones are moved to after disinterment but I will this year. I have no idea where they put them and in truth my first clue about the bones was in the cemetery.....I seriously doubt they spread the bones BUT, the first time I was there I noticed MANY very old, grey, ossified small pieces of bones in the cemetery which is behind a high, gated wall.....I showed them to my husband who said dogs probably brought them in.....I said no way! I asked a friend and she told me about the graves being reused but she didn't say what they did with the bones and I never investigated further but I will. I found a grave with the name Manuel Furtado Cardoso, same as my ggrandfather but it was from 1921 and he came to the states in 1905....the man in the picture had a strong resemblance to his picture.  I've never tried very hard to find my Candelaria relatives who might still be there and had no clue where they lived until now. Thanks to the CCA putting the Pico records up, I have now found through baptisms and obits the house # and street where they lived and I can't wait to find it this year! My thanks to the CCA are endless for what they've given me time and again!
 
Again thanks for the book name....I love to read anything Azores related!
 
Best regards,
Nancy Jean
 

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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:19:25 -0700
From: lilia...@gmail.com
To: azo...@googlegroups.com
CC: fishso...@hotmail.com

[rcapodc]

Nancy Jean,

 

Miriam is a good friend of mine! She worked very hard on the book and I think did a wonderful job. Although it is fiction, it is based on her research and her trip to the Azores to visit her roots! I hope that you and others will enjoy the book.

 

Rosemarie

[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Rosemarie,
 
I thought I remembered that she had my name from you but hesitated to say without being sure. She's a very pleasant person and we communicated quite a bit before her trip. I'm looking forward to reading her book and have already called the library!
 
Best to you!
Nancy Jean
 

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From: rca...@redshift.com
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:51:18 -0700

[Cheri Mello]

Manuel M,

Manuel said:
<<In the old days if a grave is dug and the body was still intact, it was reburied for another 7 years,  if it is still intact the body after that time the body it taken and put on a boat and taken out to sea where they would beat the body and dump it in the ocean. I do not know what is the current process after 7 years.>>

They beat the body???  I guess back in those days they didn't know that the ocean would decompose the body.

[Tygerzgirl1976]

I'm glad that my great grandparents bought their plot. As well our family was lucky to have a mausoleum to store the bones.

I have a relative that works at one if the cemeteries in Graciosa and I never heard him say anything about taking a body that had not decomposed to the ocean. The ritual is if the body is still intact after 7 years they call a priest to re bless the body. If after 7 years the body has still not decomposed they are considered a saint. What I can't remember is if they keep the body in the ground. I do know that the family is not informed at the first 7 years again can't remember what happens at the 14 year mark. 

Sent from my iPhone

--

[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Cheri,
 
I wondered what he meant by that "beat the body".....seems like if it hadn't decomposed they'd recommend it for sainthood! More info regarding that would be interesting.....when I asked my friend about the bones in the graveyard and I expressed surprise at them being dug up she took a bit of offense and said she didn't think I should move to the Azores because I didn't understand the customs....needless to say I dropped the subject!
 
Have a very fine day and again, THANK YOU for this group and all you do!
 
Nancy Jean
 

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From: gfsc...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:22:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

[pi...@dholmes.com]

I've heard that to become a saint, they had to have some number of miracles and it's a long process performed in Rome.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

[Cheri Mello]

Yeah, I think that the body not decomposing is just 1 component to becoming a saint.

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[Isabella Baltar]

Manuel,

"...taken out to sea where they would beat the body and dump it in the ocean... 

Where did you read that? Do you have any information? I really would like to learn more about as I never heard this. Even if what you have is written in Portuguese, as it is my primary language.

I will appreciate that.

Isabella Baltar

myportuguesegen.blogspot.com

[Liliana Harris]

I will just send out one thank you to all the people who have shared so many fascinating stories about burial customs. I don't even have any genealogy questions right now, but I keep coming back because this is such an interesting, well-informed group.

[Liliana Harris]

Hi Nancy Jean,

You all seem to know each other. I feel like I've stumbled into an extended family. Well, so far the author's research seems to have paid off with all sorts of interesting facts. I hope you enjoy the book, too.

Liliana

[Liliana Harris]

Hello Rosemarie,

See the message I just sent Nancy Jean. You all do know each other! So, the author is actually a friend of yours! Please thank her for such an good read. She did a fine job of separating what is clearly fact from the fictional backstory, as far as I can see.

Liliana

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:51:18 AM UTC-7, rcapodc wrote:

[Manuel Martins]

Spoke with my mother this morning to confirm the story she once told me.

She used to hear from her aunt whom was born in the late 1800, if a grave was open after 7 years and the body had not decomposed completely the body was blessed by the priest and the "coveiro" (gravedigger) would beat the body and reburied it.  She believes that the beating was to help speed the decomposition. May be beating is not the correct word here.

As for the body out to sea.  She remembers of a story of someone from Madalena with a very bad reputation that was buried twice and after the second time the body was still intact it was decided to dump the body in the ocean.

As for saints who's body did not decomposes, when opening graves they are other signs like the fragrances of flowers.

Manny

--

[Cheri Mello]

One of the things I learned from that beginning genealogy class when I began was:

Who said it?

When did they say it?

How did they know?

So,  Manny says his mom said what her aunt said this story.  OK, so this story is being retold and translated.  That answers the WHO.

But WHEN did this aunt say this?  It is something this aunt remembered from the age of 5?  A memory is always open to question.  A childhood memory seems more so.  And this story is being retold.

HOW did this aunt know?  Did she stand there and watch?

I don't know..."beat the body" brings an image to mind that a stick, bat, meat clever, something was taken to the body to basically abuse it.  To me, it just doesn't seem right.  Maybe it was a custom to that area?  I thought some type of acid (lime?) was used to aid decomposition. To beat a body (or a piece of meat - which is muscle) is to tenderize it.  But I don't have any experience with beating a piece of meat and observing the composition either.   So I concur, maybe "beat" isn't the right word here, but what would be the correct word?  I'll have to ask some of the people at the hall.

The body that was dumped in the ocean - sounds like an isolated incident to me.

[Liliana Harris]

Since words have multiple meanings, particularly on translation, could the intent of "beat" been different? Keeping in mind that I know absolutely no Portuguese... I  found that the most common term for "to beat" is "vencer" but that word's most common reverse translation is actually not a physical beating but rather overcoming, as in showing mastery over or subjugating. Just a thought...

[Tanya Smith]

I found this in an academia paper cited below.  pg. 7 talks about secondary burial.  I am wondering if the Beating of the Body was actually the beating or patting of the dirt (earth) that covered the body at the secondary burial.  Just my two cents.

Secondary burial - In many small parterres (burial grounds) the corpses are buried in ditches made in
the soil, and they are covered with earth at a depth of three or four inches. The soil
that covers the corpses is left loose, and is not even beaten

This description was probably referred to funerary rites taking place according to
the mechanisms of secondary burial. Dead bodies buried under small heaps of loose
soil; corpses not yet decomposed that were recovered so that their clothes could be
changed; finally, exhumation of partially decayed corpses aimed at completing the
defleshing process within niches within the walls ...



CITE:  Article Fornaciari, Antonio , Giuffra, Valentina and Pezzini, Francesco(2010) 'Secondary burial and
mummification practices in the Kingdom of the two Sicilies', Mortality, 15: 3, 223 — 249

Interesting study and research here.

Tanya Smith

Laie, HI

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