related in the second degree

[pi...@dholmes.com]

I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look.

My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity.

But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity.

Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate).

In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways.

If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared.

Talk about in-breeding.

Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available.

His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão.

Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry.

One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children.

Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as adults at marriage or as godparents.

A few seemed to  have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet sure of the rest.

I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins.

Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results.

I just thought it was interesting.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

[Cheri Mello]

Doug,
We call that double first cousins here.

My dad's Portuguese grandparents were double first cousins.  I know Carol (Silva) Warnock of this list has the same thing in her tree.  I'm sure there are others.  All 4 of the offspring from my dad's grandparents were just fine.  One was killed by a drunk driver, one died of lung cancer (he was a smoker), and the other two were about 80 when they died in the 1990s.

Yeah, it screws up the Family Finder results.  My dad might as well be his father, genetically speaking.  Since one inherits 25% of their DNA from the grandparents, but 2 grandparents are siblings and the other 2 are siblings, my dad got the same 25% which is really 50%!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[John Vasconcelos]

Doug,

Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University.

John Vasconcelos

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[nancy jean baptiste]

My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Pico....their line is FILLED with cousin marriages....over and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Maria....their son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge......I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line......cousins? Maybe distant ones....I don't know.
 
I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are ok....sometimes not.
 
Nancy Jean
 

---

Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
From: gfsj...@gmail.com
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

[pi...@dholmes.com]

First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.

And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.

What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before.

In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact.

I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children.

My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

[John Vasconcelos]

Yes Nancy,

There were certain families that you didn't marry into. I remember my Father forbidding my sister to go out on a date with the son of a family friend who was also from Flores. We kids didn't know the reason at the time. It was"OLD COUNTRY genetic engineering. The oldtimers just kept track which families had problems and who NOT to marry. Actually, the disease is named after a Machodo family from Sao Miguel and a Joseph family from Flores. You just had to be careful which cousins you married

I have one set of great grand parents who were first cousins: Francisco Victorino de Vasconcellos and Anna Filizarda de Vasconcellos. Their fathers were brothers: Francisco Ignacio de Vasconcellos and Nicolau Antonio de Vasconcellos. I had a first cousin, daughter of my father's sister, who recently died shortly before her 99th birthday. She had 3 siblings all of who were in their 90's when they died.

Ther were probably more "arranged marriages" for genetic reasons than you might think.

John Vasconcelos

[Yukon...@aol.com]

I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots.

 

In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, pi...@dholmes.com writes:

First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.

And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.

What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before.

In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact.

I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children.

My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
From: nancy jean baptiste <fishso...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm
To: azores group <azo...@googlegroups.com>

[Shirl Sereque]

I have a grandfather marrying his granddaughter.  It was in the 1880s and did surprise me!

- Shirl -

---

From: "Yukon...@aol.com" <Yukon...@aol.com>
To: azo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:42 AM

Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Yukon,

I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.

They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.

However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to check on that.

I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.

I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.

This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a great historical fiction.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
From: Yukon...@aol.com
Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots.

 

In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, pi...@dholmes.com writes:

First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.

And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.

What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before.

In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact.

I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children.

My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.

Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618

www.dholmes.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
From: nancy jean baptiste <fishso...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm
To: azores group <azo...@googlegroups.com>

My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Pico....their line is FILLED with cousin marriages....over and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Maria....their son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge......I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line......cousins? Maybe distant ones....I don't know.
 
I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are ok....sometimes not.
 
Nancy Jean
 

---

Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700

Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree

[Cheri Mello]

I know Eloise Cadinha has found an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage.  I can't remember which.

1st degree of consanguinity: Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage.  Rare.

2nd degree of consanguinity: 1st cousins marrying.

3rd degree of consanguinity: 2nd cousins marrying.

4th degree of consanguinity: 3rd cousins marrying.

After that, they did not keep track.  Today, the Catholic Church only keeps track of 1st and 2nd degrees of consanguinity.  I was told this by a Catholic priest probably 10 years ago.

Affinity:  Related by marriage, like in-laws.  An example might be that the wife dies in childbirth, so the man marries his sister-in-law.  I have one where he married his mother-in-law.  They had no children.  Joao Ventura, the archivist in Terceira, explained to me that it was improper back in time to have a woman in the house taking care of the kids, even if it was grandma!  So he married her to get the children taken care of (his wife died in childbirth).

[pi...@dholmes.com]

Cheri,

1st degree of consanguinity: Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage.  Rare.

This is called 1st and 2nd degree.

First degree would never be allowed, because that's siblings marrying each other - except in Eastern Kentucky... :-)

I have one where he married his mother-in-law.  They had no children.  Joao Ventura, the archivist in Terceira, explained to me that it was improper back in time to have a woman in the house taking care of the kids, even if it was grandma!  So he married her to get the children taken care of (his wife died in childbirth).

I suppose this must be clarified, because it was quite normal to have a servant in the house and just exactly what that servant did could only be known by observation - impossible to know now.

[John Vasconcelos]

I have a nephew-aunt marriage in my family tree. One of my great great grand fathers married an aunt about 20 years older than he was (for inheritance reasons I would bet). I would really like to know the story behind that. After he died he married my great great grandmother.

John Vasconcelos .

[John Raposo]

Rodrigo Rodrigues has several examples of marriages between aunts/nephews and uncles/nieces. Most of these were probably dynastic marriages, e.g., to consolidate fortunes/estates or to keep from dividing an estate.

I have never seen a marriage in the first degree the marriage of a brother to his sister is prohibited by civil and cannon law.

John Miranda Raposo

---

From: Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com>
To: Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:46 PM

Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree