"Victory belongs to the most tenacious"

[Rich Ulrich]

Foreign language inscrioption:

I've been watching the tennis at Roland Garros, and one
pull-back view showed this inscription on one structure,
in English: "Victory belongs to the most tenacious."
-An article tells me, this was a favorite slogan of the WW I
aviator and hero, Roland Garros. (After reading a social
media thread making fun of the slogan, I wonder if it sounds
better in French.)

Is this rare and unusual, or is English language -- now or in
years gone by -- a language often chosen for inscriptions in
non-English-speaking countries? It especially seemed odd
that I first noticed this in France, which I think of as famous
for language snobbery, especially vis-a-vis English.

In the US, Latin slogans are popular, maybe more popular than
English, on public buildings. I got discouraged pretty quickly
while searching on Google. This was the most rewarding --
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/54555/11-inscriptions-old-buildings-tell-it-it

It gives clever examples from private and semi-public houses,
rather than institutional choices.

I got reminded that religious slogans can be in other alphabets
as well as other languages. The Tree of Life Synagogue, scene
of a mass killing not too long ago, has a Hebrew inscription. But
that is still a live language for them.

I guess that in the US, anyone trying to use German or French
or whatever is not Latin would have to come up with some argument
to excuse the language.

--
Rich Ulrich

[David Kleinecke]

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:51:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>
> I guess that in the US, anyone trying to use German or French
> or whatever is not Latin would have to come up with some argument
> to excuse the language.

I think Spanish would raise no eyebrows anywhere in California

[Lewis]

In message <lgcd9h597c3kppgfd...@4ax.com> Rich Ulrich <rich....@comcast.net> wrote:
> Foreign language inscrioption:

> I've been watching the tennis at Roland Garros, and one
> pull-back view showed this inscription on one structure,
> in English: "Victory belongs to the most tenacious."
> -An article tells me, this was a favorite slogan of the WW I
> aviator and hero, Roland Garros. (After reading a social
> media thread making fun of the slogan, I wonder if it sounds
> better in French.)

> Is this rare and unusual, or is English language -- now or in
> years gone by -- a language often chosen for inscriptions in
> non-English-speaking countries? It especially seemed odd
> that I first noticed this in France, which I think of as famous
> for language snobbery, especially vis-a-vis English.

More likely that English was, and is, the language for all international
air travel communications.

When a Korean plane lands in Japan, the tower and the pilots are
speaking English.

> I guess that in the US, anyone trying to use German or French
> or whatever is not Latin would have to come up with some argument
> to excuse the language.

Maybe not for German, but certainly for French!

(Actually, French is more common in the US than German, we eve have it
on quite a lot of out packaging because of Canada,)

--
What would be the point of cyphering messages that very clever
enemies couldn't break? You'd end up not knowing what they
thought you thought they were thinking... --The Fifth Elephant

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Much as Dutch used to be more common on packages than German in France,
on account of the Belgian market. Not so true nowadays, however, now
that they use every language they can think of.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Silvano]

Stefan Ram hat am 01.06.2022 um 16:54 geschrieben:
> r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> Olaf Scholz, Federal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of
> Germany, reportedly said in a speech in the Bundestag today:
>
> |More beef wäre wirklich sehr vernünftig gewesen.
>
> ("Mehr Rindfleisch would have been very reasonable indeed.").


A typical example of a too literal, and therefore very bad translation.
"More concrete arguments" is probably correct. Perhaps also "More
substance ..."?

Then there's the question, of course, if "beef" is used in that sense in
any English-speaking country or is just another of many infamous
pseudo-anglicisms (handy for a mobile phone, public viewing for a TV
broadcast on a giant screen in a large street or square, bodybag for a
messenger bag and many more).

Other languages use pseudo-anglicisms too, rarely the same in several
countries.
For starters <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-anglicism>

And I have to confess that I use many of those listed here
<https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoanglicismo> when I speak Italian,
as well as many of those listed here
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinanglizismus> when I speak German.

The important point is to avoid all of them when I speak English, a
mistake I made over 40 years ago in a youth hostel in London. I needed
some adhesive tape and used the widespread name in Italy at that time.
"Do you have some scotch, please?" Very puzzled look and the answer: "Is
it not really too soon, at 9 a.m.?"

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 10:55:18 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> Stefan Ram hat am 01.06.2022 um 16:54 geschrieben:
> > r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> > Olaf Scholz, Federal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of
> > Germany, reportedly said in a speech in the Bundestag today:
> >
> > |More beef wäre wirklich sehr vernünftig gewesen.
> >
> > ("Mehr Rindfleisch would have been very reasonable indeed.").
>
>
> A typical example of a too literal, and therefore very bad translation.
> "More concrete arguments" is probably correct. Perhaps also "More
> substance ..."?
>
> Then there's the question, of course, if "beef" is used in that sense in
> any English-speaking country or is just another of many infamous
> pseudo-anglicisms (handy for a mobile phone, public viewing for a TV
> broadcast on a giant screen in a large street or square, bodybag for a
> messenger bag

Wow.

> and many more).

"Beef" is used that way, more or less. Americans of a certain age will
remember Gary Hart's and Walter Mondale's use of "Where's the beef"
about each other's political campaigns. It was originally a catchphrase
from commercials

> Other languages use pseudo-anglicisms too, rarely the same in several
> countries.
> For starters <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-anglicism>
>
> And I have to confess that I use many of those listed here
> <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoanglicismo> when I speak Italian,
> as well as many of those listed here
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinanglizismus> when I speak German.

I believe I understand both of those pages well enough to say the entries
on the meanings of some phrases in English and the English ways to say
some of those things need work.

> The important point is to avoid all of them when I speak English, a
> mistake I made over 40 years ago in a youth hostel in London. I needed
> some adhesive tape and used the widespread name in Italy at that time.
> "Do you have some scotch, please?" Very puzzled look and the answer: "Is
> it not really too soon, at 9 a.m.?"

Maybe more like "Isn't it a little too early, at 9 am"?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Silvano]

Jerry Friedman hat am 02.06.2022 um 19:30 geschrieben:

Maybe. Do you really expect me to remember the precise wording I heard
in 1979? But I remember the meaning and I'm still slightly ashamed over
my mistake.

[Quinn C]

* Rich Ulrich:

> I guess that in the US, anyone trying to use German or French
> or whatever is not Latin would have to come up with some argument
> to excuse the language.

Die Luft der Freiheit weht!

--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125

[Hibou]

Le 01/06/2022 à 01:51, Rich Ulrich a écrit :
>
> Foreign language inscrioption:
>
> I've been watching the tennis at Roland Garros, and one
> pull-back view showed this inscription on one structure,
> in English: "Victory belongs to the most tenacious."
> -An article tells me, this was a favorite slogan of the WW I
> aviator and hero, Roland Garros. (After reading a social
> media thread making fun of the slogan, I wonder if it sounds

> better in French.) [...]

The original seems to be: « La victoire appartient aux plus tenaces ».

Most things sound better and profounder - and less arguable - in French
- "Honi soit qui mal y pense" etc..

I sometimes wonder how such terms as 'foie gras' sound to the French. It
sounds fine in English, but is just 'fat liver' to them - not a name a
marketing man would have chosen, I think.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-06-03 12:52:34 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 01/06/2022 à 01:51, Rich Ulrich a écrit :
>>
>> Foreign language inscrioption:
>>
>> I've been watching the tennis at Roland Garros, and one
>> pull-back view showed this inscription on one structure,
>> in English: "Victory belongs to the most tenacious."
>> -An article tells me, this was a favorite slogan of the WW I
>> aviator and hero, Roland Garros. (After reading a social
>> media thread making fun of the slogan, I wonder if it sounds
>> better in French.) [...]
>
> The original seems to be: « La victoire appartient aux plus tenaces ».
>
> Most things sound better and profounder - and less arguable - in French
> - "Honi soit qui mal y pense" etc..
>
> I sometimes wonder how such terms as 'foie gras' sound to the French.

It sounds like "Christmas" to the French.

> It sounds fine in English, but is just 'fat liver' to them - not a
> name a marketing man would have chosen, I think.

[Jerry Friedman]

No, I don't expect you to remember, but my suggestion seems more
idiomatic to me, and I was hoping it would help you with idiomatic
English.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

On 03-Jun-22 14:11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-06-03 12:52:34 +0000, Hibou said:

>> I sometimes wonder how such terms as 'foie gras' sound to the French.
>
> It sounds like "Christmas" to the French.

Mardi Gras - another week, another dose of saturated fats?

--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

As a matter of fact, the French might wonder how "fat liver" sounds to the English.

[Rich Ulrich]

I'm having a late thought about a Japanese fad I read about, from
a couple of decades ago: strange slogans in English on t-shirts,
sweaters, and whatnot. The media showed us some of these,
making fun of the English incompetence (so far as I remember).

I certainly don't remember anyone commenting - what now
seems entirely possible, or even likely - that any Japanese with
a little English would have 'gotten' most of them immediately,
because they were obvious literal translations of quips and
slogans in Japanese. (Or, if someone said that, I must have
been not yet ready to understand it.)

--
Rich Ulrich

[CDB]

On 6/3/2022 4:28 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Hibou said:

>>> I sometimes wonder how such terms as 'foie gras' sound to the
>>> French.

>> It sounds like "Christmas" to the French.

> Mardi Gras - another week, another dose of saturated fats?

If it's Tuesday, this must be NAFLD.

--
The "N" being optional.

[Madhu]

* Rich Ulrich <ldml9h14h65p6sa0t0gi9cro98raqmchdv @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Sat, 04 Jun 2022 00:16:26 -0400:

>
> I'm having a late thought about a Japanese fad I read about, from
> a couple of decades ago: strange slogans in English on t-shirts,
> sweaters, and whatnot. The media showed us some of these,
> making fun of the English incompetence (so far as I remember).

In the mid-2000s I saw T-shirts in roadside-shops in Mumbai (when
waiting for public transportation) that had this sort of thing: nonsense
statements but in "idiomatic" indian-english. I thought it was the work
of one designer. one crude slogan i remember: "my face ur ass what the
difference"

[Peter Moylan]

On 03/06/22 02:55, Silvano wrote:

> The important point is to avoid all of them when I speak English, a
> mistake I made over 40 years ago in a youth hostel in London. I
> needed some adhesive tape and used the widespread name in Italy at
> that time. "Do you have some scotch, please?" Very puzzled look and
> the answer: "Is it not really too soon, at 9 a.m.?"

It works both ways. I still remember the time I checked into a hotel in
Italy (Torino) and was told to sleep on the first piano.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 22:48:33 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 03/06/22 02:55, Silvano wrote:
>
>> The important point is to avoid all of them when I speak English, a
>> mistake I made over 40 years ago in a youth hostel in London. I
>> needed some adhesive tape and used the widespread name in Italy at
>> that time. "Do you have some scotch, please?" Very puzzled look and
>> the answer: "Is it not really too soon, at 9 a.m.?"
>
>It works both ways. I still remember the time I checked into a hotel in
>Italy (Torino) and was told to sleep on the first piano.

Which is one floor up from the ground floor. I don't know about
Australia, but in the US, the "first floor" would be what Italians
call the ground floor, or floor number 0.

[Peter Moylan]

For Australians, too, the first floor is above the ground floor, but we
usually keep the piano on the ground floor.

[charles]

In article <t7m8c2$kjp$1...@dont-email.me>,

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/06/22 01:06, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 22:48:33 +1000, Peter Moylan
> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/06/22 02:55, Silvano wrote:
> >>
> >>> The important point is to avoid all of them when I speak English,
> >>> a mistake I made over 40 years ago in a youth hostel in London.
> >>> I needed some adhesive tape and used the widespread name in Italy
> >>> at that time. "Do you have some scotch, please?" Very puzzled
> >>> look and the answer: "Is it not really too soon, at 9 a.m.?"
> >>
> >> It works both ways. I still remember the time I checked into a
> >> hotel in Italy (Torino) and was told to sleep on the first piano.
> >
> >
> > Which is one floor up from the ground floor. I don't know about
> > Australia, but in the US, the "first floor" would be what Italians
> > call the ground floor, or floor number 0.

> For Australians, too, the first floor is above the ground floor, but we
> usually keep the piano on the ground floor.

I have friends, of whom the wife is a keen (and good) pianist. Years ago,
when they sold their flat in London, they persuaded the new owners to buy
the piano. After a few weeks they had a phone call "We thought the piano
was taking up too much room, so we've sold it. How did you get it into the
flat?" "Don't know, it was there when we bought the flat."

['flat' = 'apartment' for leftpondians]

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Silvano]

Peter Moylan hat am 07.06.2022 um 03:07 geschrieben:

> For Australians, too, the first floor is above the ground floor, but we
> usually keep the piano on the ground floor.

My small piano is on the second floor, as well as my whole
flat/apartment. :-)
By the way, Italians call "pianoforte" what you call "piano", because
our "piano" has several meanings.
<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/italian-english/piano>

[Janet]

In article <59f4b9b9...@candehope.me.uk>, cha...@candehope.me.uk
says...

We once viewed a Victorian house in Glasgow where the huge floored
attic space contained a beautiful wooden sailing boat, lovingly built
by some previous owner... too big for the stairs.

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

On 07/06/22 19:03, Janet wrote:

> We once viewed a Victorian house in Glasgow where the huge floored
> attic space contained a beautiful wooden sailing boat, lovingly
> built by some previous owner... too big for the stairs.

One of my uncles put a lot of work into building a boat in the back
yard. When it was finished, it turned out that it couldn't be moved past
the house. He had to hire a huge crane to lift it over the house.

That's not as bad as your attic story, though. I suppose for that you'd
have to remove the roof.

[Peter Moylan]

Strictly speaking, the name is also pianoforte in English - or
fortepiano in older writings - but everyone abbreviates it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Thanks to the HIP movement (Historically Informed Performance),
"fortepiano" now designates a rather different instrument, much closer
to its harpsichord roots, substituting hammers for plectra.

[lar3ryca]

I know two people who built airplanes in their basements, and both had
misjudged the exit strategy by not taking the necessary clearances
required to allow for getting the various assemblies around corners.

Both required some demolition/rebuilding.

--
All roght, whi swotched my keytips ariund?

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2022 09:23:36 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

It's probably a rare leftpondian (at least among those here) who
doesn't know the BrE "flat."

[Ken Blake]

Did it have a mast (masts?)?

[Ken Blake]

It's not just Italians. "Pianoforte is the English name for it too,
but as with so many words, English speakers like to shorten it, and
almost nobody still uses its full name.

I'm sure you know it, but perhaps some other here don't: "pianoforte"
means "soft-loud." It was called that because a note can be loud or
soft depending on how hard you strike the key. That's different from
its predecessor, the harpsichord, where the volume is the same
regardless of how hard the key is struck.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 19:21:08 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 07/06/22 18:51, Silvano wrote:
>> Peter Moylan hat am 07.06.2022 um 03:07 geschrieben:
>>> For Australians, too, the first floor is above the ground floor,
>>> but we usually keep the piano on the ground floor.
>>
>> My small piano is on the second floor, as well as my whole
>> flat/apartment. :-) By the way, Italians call "pianoforte" what you
>> call "piano", because our "piano" has several meanings.
>> <https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/italian-english/piano>
>
>Strictly speaking, the name is also pianoforte in English

Oops, I should have read ahead before I posted. Sorry.

>- or
>fortepiano in older writings

It's not just older writings. It was an older instrument, slightly
different from the pianoforte. I can't remember the differences, and I
don't have time now for a web search.

>- but everyone abbreviates it.

Yes.

[Mark Brader]

Peter Moylan:

> Strictly speaking, the name is also pianoforte in English - or
> fortepiano in older writings - but everyone abbreviates it.

No; that's the etymology, not the name.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "So *you* say." --Toddy Beamish
m...@vex.net | (H.G. Wells, "The Man Who Could Work Miracles")

[charles]

In article <t7nkmk$3je$1...@dont-email.me>,

There is a similar BBC Raadio story. For one studio recording they thought
they needed a piano which they hadn't got, and tried to move one from a
nearly studio, but got it well and truly wedged at a corner. This was
discovered and the carpenters' workshop was asked to make a piano case so
that it could be tried down any potential piano route. They proved that
you could not get a grand piano out of thcarpenters' workshop.

> --

[David Kleinecke]

For the benefit of people who can't see them: Here is an example of
PTD making a genuine positive contribution.

I never even heard of HIP before much less its fortepiano.

[Lewis]

But the ballroom is traditionally upstairs!


--
Hi, I'm Gary Cooper, but not the Gary Cooper that's dead.

[Lewis]

Not is, WAS.

And it WAS wrong, since we got it from the French piano and not the
Italian pianoforte,

--
I thought I wanted a career. Turns out, I just wanted pay checks.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:51:34 +0200: Silvano
<Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> scribeva:

Yes. Musically, piano-forte means soft-loud, because both were
possible when the instrument of that name was invented.

Technically though, a pianoforte is not the same instrument as a
modern piano, which is a more advanced design, based on it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 7 Jun 2022 05:22:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

Exactly.

[Ruud Harmsen]

>On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 5:22:51 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Thanks to the HIP movement (Historically Informed Performance),
>> "fortepiano" now designates a rather different instrument, much closer
>> to its harpsichord roots, substituting hammers for plectra.

Tue, 7 Jun 2022 18:30:50 -0700 (PDT): David Kleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> scribeva:
[...]

>I never even heard of HIP before much less its fortepiano.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ef95BZfYcw

[Janet]

In article <6oou9hd15f23iufc6...@4ax.com>,
K...@invalid.news.com says...

It wasn't "up", but yes. That kind of small wooden sailing boat has
a mast that drops down/detaches for transport, storage in boatshed etc.

Janet

[J. J. Lodder]

Or for passing under fixed bridges.
When moored between bridges they usually put up their mast again,
because the mast and all that riging lying around on deck
is quite cumbersome.

Tourists sometimes wonder how that ship got there,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

See the stunning example posted yesterday by Bob Martin in the
thread whose title is a string of hyphens.

[Ruud Harmsen]

>On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 9:30:52 PM UTC-4, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I never even heard of HIP before much less its fortepiano.

Wed, 8 Jun 2022 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>See the stunning example posted yesterday by Bob Martin in the
>thread whose title is a string of hyphens.

Would like to look / listen, but can't find it.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:30:00 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

Found it anyway:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english/c/NMkIhVE-k4g/m/GxdcPQGjAgAJ

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:33:28 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>

After the first 30 seconds the flute playing lady has spoilt it for me
already. Exaggated movements. "Aanstellerij", we call that in Dutch.

"Move ma non troppo", https://rudhar.com/musica/lutbaroc/ia01.htm .

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:37:02 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>

scribeva:

>Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:33:28 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>
>>Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:30:00 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>>scribeva:
>>
>>>>On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 9:30:52 PM UTC-4, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I never even heard of HIP before much less its fortepiano.
>>>
>>>Wed, 8 Jun 2022 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>>>See the stunning example posted yesterday by Bob Martin in the
>>>>thread whose title is a string of hyphens.
>>>
>>>Would like to look / listen, but can't find it.
>>
>>Found it anyway:
>>https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english/c/NMkIhVE-k4g/m/GxdcPQGjAgAJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irco0KyYLBk

>After the first 30 seconds the flute playing lady has spoilt it for me
>already. Exaggated movements. "Aanstellerij", we call that in Dutch.

affectation, pose, manner, says Google Translate could be English
translations.

[Ruud Harmsen]

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irco0KyYLBk

Hardly anything seems to be happening in this music. And this lack of
notes this flutist Emi Ferguson tries to compensate by acting as a
dancer. But she doesn't dance well either.

So, sorry, no, I cannot get enthousiastic about this music, nor about
the performance.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:37:02 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>After the first 30 seconds the flute playing lady has spoilt it for me
>already. Exaggated movements. "Aanstellerij", we call that in Dutch.

s/agga/aggera/

[bil...@shaw.ca]

"Flat" was known in the Netherlands when I was growing up there in the
1950s. But the Dutch didn't all speak English at that point, and most of
them pronounced it "flet".

bill

[CDB]

On 6/8/2022 8:46 PM, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:

Hey, that's how Galadriel said it.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flet

[Adam Funk]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortepiano>

One of the comments is amusing:

"Although I am a lover of performances on authentic instruments the
fortepiano was one of the least successful instruments and the most
deserving of improvement. I am not always comfortable with the
sound made by many fortepianos and however fine a performance may
be I find it difficult at times to get past the often unpleasant
sound." (Michael Cookson)




--
One could hardly get rich if one bothered all the time about whether
what one was doing was wrong or right.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Hmm. During my time, the pianist Malcolm Bilson had one of the
first modern fortepianos (a reproduction of a 1770s model) and
worked assiduously on perfecting the techniques. It didn't have
pedals, but it did "Sustain" with bars beneath the front of the
keyboard that were raised by the knees -- one for each half of
the keyboard, a feature that wasn't continued as newer instruments
were invented. He claimed that some of Beethoven's sonatas
couldn't be played with just the one sustaining pedal, but you
needed a divided keyboard like that.

A few years later he recorded all the Mozart keyboard concertos
with John Eliot Gardner.

At a lecture-demonstration some years later, Charles Rosen
talked about why the modern piano was much better than the
fortepiano for Beethoven. In the question period I told him what
Malcolm Bilson had said. (I think it was specifically about the
Waldstein.) Rosen said, "Maybe _Malcolm_ can't play it." The
audience were amused.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

On the less-than-top-of-the-line upright I grew up with, the middle
pedal sustained the bottom half of the keyboard but not the top
half. I never used that pedal. (For anyone who's wondering, it's
supposed to sustain whatever notes were being held when it was
pressed, but not any played later, which I can see would be
useful.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

at Cornell,

> > the pianist Malcolm Bilson had one of the
> > first modern fortepianos (a reproduction of a 1770s model) and
> > worked assiduously on perfecting the techniques. It didn't have
> > pedals, but it did "Sustain" with bars beneath the front of the
> > keyboard that were raised by the knees -- one for each half of
> > the keyboard, a feature that wasn't continued as newer instruments
> > were invented. He claimed that some of Beethoven's sonatas
> > couldn't be played with just the one sustaining pedal, but you
> > needed a divided keyboard like that.
> ...
>
> On the less-than-top-of-the-line upright I grew up with, the middle
> pedal sustained the bottom half of the keyboard but not the top
> half. I never used that pedal. (For anyone who's wondering, it's
> supposed to sustain whatever notes were being held when it was
> pressed, but not any played later, which I can see would be
> useful.)

I've never understood how the middle pedal (sustaining notes
that were depressed at the moment) works.

The left pedal, _una corda_, shifts the hammers slightly to the
side (one or the other) so that they strike only one string (instead
of the two or three strings) for each note.