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Is 'Ye Olde Shoppe' a misspelling?
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Dingbat
Jul 29, 2016, 11:04:03 PM7/29/16
to
Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 29, 2016, 11:53:09 PM7/29/16
to
On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
You seem to be quoting something.
> Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
>
> In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
>
> In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
degrees (period).
> A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
>
> Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
Is any other sort of question worth considering?
You seem to be quoting something.
> Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
>
> In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
>
> In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
degrees (period).
> A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
>
> Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
Dingbat
Jul 30, 2016, 12:56:17 AM7/30/16
to
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 9:23:09 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> You seem to be quoting something.
Various bits and pieces from memory.
> On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> You seem to be quoting something.
>
> > Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
> >
> > In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
> >
> > In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
>
> It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> degrees (period).
>
Well, I distinctly reading about a thorn grapheme that was a laterally inverted y; I didn't try to verify whether it was right or wrong. Perhaps it's possible to laterally invert the form for a Y mold to make a thorn mold from which to make a thorn type. Personally, I don't see much merit in such an odd looking thorn but that's the kind of thorn I read about.
> > Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
> >
> > In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
> >
> > In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
>
> It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> degrees (period).
>
>
> > A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
> >
> > Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
>
> Is any other sort of question worth considering?
>
In theory, someone could post a store sign in Holland Gothic, but a thorn seems easier to associate with the pronunciation [D] because of its resemblence to a capital D.
> > A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
> >
> > Holland Gothic is not used any more, so whether it would still be correct to spell it with a closed y in that typeface is a largely hypothetical/ academic question.
>
> Is any other sort of question worth considering?
>
Dingbat
Jul 30, 2016, 2:58:58 AM7/30/16
to
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 9:23:09 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> > ... y was laterally inverted ..., so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror.
> >
>
> It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> degrees (period).
>
In https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/eS9Pv6QF_wI/0j7hdHgiBgAJ
> It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> degrees (period).
>
Peter Moylan wrote:
> In some fonts a thorn looks like a mirror-image y ...
>
The tail of the Holland Gothic Y is on the left, making it look like a mirror image of the tail on the right in certain other scripts.
Jack Campin
Jul 30, 2016, 6:23:20 AM7/30/16
to
> Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings.
You may be able to find occurrences of them if you dig deeply enough
into sufficiently obscure sources, but were they ever used as frequently
as the normal modern spellings?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
CDB
Jul 30, 2016, 8:37:19 AM7/30/16
to
On 7/30/2016 12:56 AM, Dingbat wrote:
[among thorns]
> In theory, someone could post a store sign in Holland Gothic, but a
> thorn seems easier to associate with the pronunciation [D] because of
> its resemblence to a capital D.
That sounds more like an edh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth
[among thorns]
> In theory, someone could post a store sign in Holland Gothic, but a
> thorn seems easier to associate with the pronunciation [D] because of
> its resemblence to a capital D.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 30, 2016, 8:50:44 AM7/30/16
to
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:56:17 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 9:23:09 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> > You seem to be quoting something.
>
> Various bits and pieces from memory.
> >
> > > Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
> > >
> > > In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
> > >
> > > In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
> >
> > It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> > degrees (period).
> >
> Well, I distinctly reading about a thorn grapheme that was a laterally inverted y;
Aside from the fact that "grapheme" is a senseless term, that's not talking
> On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 9:23:09 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:04:03 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> > You seem to be quoting something.
>
> Various bits and pieces from memory.
> >
> > > Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
> > >
> > > In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
> > >
> > > In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
> >
> > It's not possible to "laterally invert" a piece of type. You can rotate it 180
> > degrees (period).
> >
> Well, I distinctly reading about a thorn grapheme that was a laterally inverted y;
about a piece of type, is it?
> I didn't try to verify whether it was right or wrong. Perhaps it's possible to laterally invert the form for a Y mold to make a thorn mold from which to make a thorn type. Personally, I don't see much merit in such an odd looking thorn but that's the kind of thorn I read about.
would be all wrong for it to fit into the line of print.
> > > A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it.
monoline font. ("Reflection" not "inversion" is what you want.) Normally
the left diagonal of Y is heavier than the right diagonal.
GordonD
Jul 30, 2016, 1:31:14 PM7/30/16
to
On 30/07/2016 04:04, Dingbat wrote:
> Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
>
> In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
>
> In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
>
> A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
It may be a more correct reproduction but if you're painting it above
> Olde and Shoppe are correct archaic spellings. That leaves Ye.
>
> In handwriting, it was Þe. Typesetters, in order to avoid the bother of adding the thorn (Þ) to their fonts, reused Y because in the Holland Gothic typeface, Y was closed and looked like a thorn; look for Jelly in Holland Gothic on this page: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/holland-gothic/
>
> In other typefaces, with a y open at the top, y was laterally inverted, so a printed thorn looked like a y seen through a mirror. Whether inverted or not, the reader was expected to interpret y as a thorn (th or dh) in appropriate contexts.
>
> A capital Y is symmetrical in a modern typeface, so its lateral inversion can't be distinguished from it. Also, since the thorn is available in modern Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1), there's no need for Y to substitute for it. So, a more correct reproduction of archaic spelling in a modern typeface would be 'Þe Olde Shoppe'.
the door of your own Tea Shoppe how many people are going to know what
it is? The general public are used to seeing the word spelt with a 'Y'
even if they don't know how to pronounce it.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
bill van
Jul 30, 2016, 3:04:05 PM7/30/16
to
I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread, though I could have
missed it: Over in the mainstream, at Wikipedia, it seems to be known
and accepted that "'Ye olde' is a pseudo-Early Modern English stock
prefix, used anachronistically, suggestive of a Merry England..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde
--
bill
missed it: Over in the mainstream, at Wikipedia, it seems to be known
and accepted that "'Ye olde' is a pseudo-Early Modern English stock
prefix, used anachronistically, suggestive of a Merry England..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde
--
bill
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 30, 2016, 3:06:01 PM7/30/16
to
Robert Bannister
Jul 30, 2016, 8:24:25 PM7/30/16
to
between a capital D and the "th" sound.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
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