AOQ Dollhouse Review 2-10: "The Attic"
Arbitrar Of Quality
review threads.
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DOLLHOUSE
Season Two, Episode 10: "The Attic"
(or "Dying in a winter wonderland")
Writers: Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon
Director: John Cassaday
"C'mon, Echo! Be your friggin' best."
- Echo, "The Attic"
I'd like to think we watch enough of these shows to kind of get a sense of
how they work. Thus, I doubt I'm alone in having pegged the opening as a
dream sequence almost immediately. Still, it's a cool dream sequence, at
least, with satisfyingly brutal violence and nice little details like
Sierra/Priya shrieking while firing her gun while Victor/Tony mows people
down. It goes on just long enough to get the viewer involved, but ends soon
enough that it doesn't feel like a fake-out. Abbreviated title sequence,
and we're off into dreamland.
I'm not surprised that _Dollhouse_ eventually got around to doing a dream
episode. Although this series is arguably more soft sci-fi than outright
fantasy, it spends enough time playing with brains that it's not so
surprising. It still feels like we're watching _Dollhouse_. The only thing
that felt a bit implausible to me was the "using brains as computers" stuff
(yeah, the plot of the whole episode), but even that is also in keeping with
the basic premise/tone of the series. Some of it is beautifully shot. I
quite like the image of Echo (after realizing that she's caught in a loop
and admirably keeping her head and exploring her environs) climbing out into
a swirling snowstorm amidst a twisted tree. "Well, that's new." Heh. Have
I mentioned how much I've been digging Echo these past few shows?
And then there are these seeming intrusions back into the real world. My
initial impression was slight annoyance at being pulled out of some
captivating dreams into stuff that, although amusing, distracts from the
mood. I wished (again, these are first-time impressions here) that "The
Attic" had had the guts to stick with the dreaminess for the whole show.
Most of the scenes in the House are at least pretty good, though. An
indeterminate amount of time has passed since "Stop-Loss," enough to make
Boyd having stuff going on outside the office and he and Topher all mopey
together. And hey, Joss's unexpected professed love of football makes its
way into the show, with the Wildcat formation actually being used as a plot
point. Ivy and Topher have a great vibe bonding over geeky references
before Topher again insults her without even realizing it. But why does she
avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are we missing a scene
somewhere?
Back in the dreamscape, the show spends a few minutes wandering soaking up
the surrealness and making references to previous episodes and random stuff
I didn't recognize. (For instance, what's up with the guy that Echo tells
Dominic is "a long story?") But before we get used to that, suddenly it's
an action episode, and some things are real! And hey, Lawrence Dominic is
here, and he's a good guy, and he's real too! One of the biggest strengths
of "The Attic" is that it changes moods abruptly and frequently enough that
the viewer never knows quite where it's going, and that's a good thing. It's
easy to remember Dominic as a villain, but remember, his goal has always
been to bring down the House. Here, the action hero pairing of him with
Echo works because it gives them someone with different experiences to talk
to, so they can piece together the plot at a reasonable rate. The "no, you're
in *my* head" routine is a good example of mixing exposition with wit, the
way Mutant Enemy programs can do at their best.
It could be argued that the imagery doesn't get more vivid than the
interlude with the programmer in the Japanese restaurant. The total
nonchalance and acceptance with which he tries to, well, "enjoy himself"
sells the moment as much as anything else in the strange but captivating
sequence.
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"Here goes everything."
- Echo, "The Attic"
I mentioned feeling like the dreams had momentum, while not loving the cuts
back to the House. Midway through the episode, this started to change, and
not totally in a good way. Don't have much to say about the real life
stuff, except that Penikett does a great job with the not quite sentences he's
asked to say while Paul is still getting himself in sync. Basically, the
problem is Tony and Priya's dreams. They're outright boring.
Unimaginatively conceived and unimaginatively staged, and the repetition
doesn't help. There was actually a fleeting moment in which I was prepared
to write off the whole episode as an exercise in aimless wandering and
fighting a bland comic book monster. Some degree of sound and fury
signifying nothing special.
Fortunately, "The Attic" is standing by to change moods on us again, just at
the right time. I'd had enough of Arcane, and then he turned out not to be
a villain either. This is the kind of episode where the guy killing
everyone is actually freeing them from torment while fighting to weaken the
villains. And I love that kind of thing. Arcane is actually a guy named
Clyde (entertainingly portrayed by actor Adam Godley). . . who has visions
of "Epitaph One!" The sudden recreation of that set is eerie, and I almost
expected to see Mag and Zone running across the screen in the background.
I don't know if there's a reason to recapitulate the ensuing exposition, so
I won't. But everything clicked here. Sensible or silly, seeing the pieces
of the series fit together, solving old mysteries while setting up new ones,
I was riveted in a way that only the best laid exposition scenes can. I
could complain about the sketchiness of the mechanisms for jumping between
dreams or for selectively dying and then coming back (maybe the plot twist
at the end can help with fanwanking), but when you're engrossed, these
things barely seem worth mentioning.
I think I've hit all the most important points, but I'd like to highlight
the final musical montage that ends the Attic sequences as a filmmaking
highlight. The song matches great with the silent playing out of what we
saw earlier. Special mention to Tony stabbing Priya - hauntingly romantic
stuff, no sarcasm - and the frantic CPR that helps sell what a razor's edge
they're walking on with some of these last ditch plans.
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"The moment you stepped into this House, you, in effect, gave us your life.
And you must decide if that life is to put to good use or laid to waste. I
have seen the future, Mr. Langton. And it is not for the weak."
- Adelle DeWitt, "The Attic"
Of course, one of the biggest reasons we keep cutting back to the House is
to set up that final moment when Echo speaks to an unseen audience. . .
which turns out to be a room full of conspirators. Adelle's earlier scenes
find her at the coldest she's ever been, even to those whom we know she does
care about. I don't know whether that should have been a clue or not. But
coldness doesn't make her a villain after all. It makes her the kind of
dark hero who doesn't mind using the hell out of "her" people. (Maybe those
suggesting that she sees herself in Caroline aren't so far off. There's a
history between those two that I hope the show has time for.)
As may have been obvious, I followed my custom such that I had not watched
"The Attic" yet when I wrote my review of "Stop-Loss." I allowed for the
possibility that Adelle might be playing a hidden game, but said "if so, it
would be a twist." And it's a big plot twist of the kind where we learn
that we previously only saw part of a conversation that appeared to be
complete. One may recall that the best non-future episode of S1, "Needs,"
also used the same trick.
Why does it work so well here? Two similar reasons. One related to plot
mechanics, and one related to character development. The plot reason is
that like a good twist, it totally re-contextualizes everything the audience
has just seen into something bigger, and if anything, makes an already
entertaining series of events that much better. The character reason is
pretty much the same thing, except all about Adelle. _Dollhouse_'s work
with this character in this pair of episodes is nothing short of brilliant.
The fake-out rings totally true as one plausible way Adelle could have
reacted to hitting bottom, especially given her actions in previous weeks.
Then the real explanation comes along and makes at least as much sense, and
she's a richer person for it. Either way would be a compelling arc that
makes dramatic sense. And it's hard to overstate that accomplishment.
It's entertaining to me to wonder who knows what during which scenes. It's
quite possible that Boyd was aware of the whole plan the whole time, even
going back to the end of "Stop-Loss." If so, he finally found something to
strongly disapprove of in a non-nonchalant way. But all of his scenes work
either way. Topher, on the other hand, I can't see being in the know prior
to the final scene. Adelle probably wouldn't trust him with a secret longer
than necessary.
So all the main characters are allied and ready to step up the fight, and
Echo still recognizes another missing piece. (Meanwhile, Adam Baldwin
watches from outside. . . oh, no, wait. . .) And you thought last week was
exhilarating? Somehow our cast of evil animals, amorals, and vegetables has
turned into a family group. I care about them, and I hold out hope in their
hopeless cause to avoid the 97% certainty of post-apocalyptic DVD-only
codas.
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"I LOVE THIS SHOW!"
- from my notes taken while watching "The Attic"
Loose ends: What was taken away from Paul; who Clyde's former friend and
copy have become now. I don't see any special benefit to speculating right
now, but if anyone's read this far and wants to throw ideas around, have at
it.
I wonder why no one thought to introduce some Caroline memories earlier.
Might have been useful in a few recent scrapes. Of course, I didn't think
of it either.
"This is really stupid but I laughed anyway" moment(s):
- "[The year is] two thousand ten, I think. I don't know how long we've
been off the air"
You know what might be interesting, if they can get it to make sense? If
Caroline signing up for the House in the first place was all part of some
bigger scheme. I can't work out a way for Adelle to have been in on it from
the start, not without negating the power of this last run of episodes, but
what if Caroline was playing her in her seeming desperation? It'll be nice
to, if nothing else, get an "adult" doll's perspective on what her past self
was like.
You know what'll be great? Not writing two of these things every weekend
anymore.
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So. . .
One sentence summary: Perhaps the best bit of dream-wankery and retcon you'll
ever see.
AOQ rating: Excellent
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[Season Two so far:
1) "Vows" - Good
2) "Instinct" - Good
3) "Belle Chose" - Decent
4) "Belonging" - Good
5) "The Public Eye" - Decent
6) "The Left Hand" - Excellent
7) "Meet Jane Doe" - Good
8) "A Love Supreme" - Decent
9) "Stop-Loss" - Good
10) "The Attic" - Excellent]
Jillun
doesn't have to be the "real" world. It can be a nightmare. Well,
what did they take from Paul? Yay, I want Whiskey back! And
November! Ah. If for sure it never gets renewed, we may never know.
I predict comic series.
WilliamTheB
posted multiple times....
So this is my first time posting here. I recently discovered AOQ's
reviews for _Buffy_ and _Angel_ (and _Firefly_) in various group
archives and found both the reviews themselvesand the comments
generated to be really high quality. That out of the way, onto "The
Attic." I don't have all that much to say about "Stop-Loss" which was
probably in decent territory for me. But "The Attic"!
The two big twists in the episode--Adelle's turnaround, and the true
nature of Arcane-the-monster--were very well played. And indeed, I
was, like AOQ, prepared to write the episode off as a bit of a time-
waster, where the characters confront a standard Nightmare on Elm
Street monster, or the First Slayer in "Restless" if you want, but
without the originality of the former or the careful, minute character
work and abstract poetry that (Joss) Whedon gave to the latter. (Not
that this episode didn't have striking images, like Echo climbing up
the ladder, matching up onto Caroline-Iris, Mag and Zone climbing to
safety in Epitaph One, or the tree, or many others. But it's trying
something different than "Restless.") But then the explanation of
what the Attic does actually resonates with the series' overall themes
("we are in the business of using people") and Rossum's mission
statement, and the idea of the monster as a merciful angel of death
killing people to save the world is...well, as Clyde might say, it
seems pretty badass.
Echo's ability to get out of the Attic seemed a bit too simple on a
first viewing, but it does make some sense that Echo would have a
particular ability to control her brain patterns, even to the point of
shutting herself down and rebooting: it's not explicitly mentioned in
her Adelle scene, but it was the very first solution to the problem
that Echo came up with (at the episode's beginning) and so it's not as
if the episode introduces it out of nowhere.
My two big issues with the episode:
- I agree that Priya's and Anthony's dreams were a disappointment. I
think both connected to recent events fairly well: Priya deals not
only with a rapist, but her murder victim; and Anthony's fighting
himself connects with his problems in the previous episode
- On Adelle's play: from a character perspective, I do like it a lot.
But I'm not sure if it actually makes any sense. I'm willing to let
her scenes with Topher and Boyd, and what she told Ivy to make her
cold and distant to Topher, be a bit of a mystery and something for
fans to reconstruct--I do want to think it through and think of a way
for it to make sense of the actions of all the players throughout the
ep. But I do think we should have been given some indication of: *why
did she send Priya and Anthony to the Attic*? Seriously, it seems
neither necessary for Adelle-as-Evil-Adelle to send Victor-and-Sierra
there (unless she's under Rossum's orders?) nor for Adelle-as-Good-
Adelle to send them there (how would they get any information?).
About all I can think of is a) she knows that the people are networked
and that Echo could possibly recruit them for help, or b) she wants to
make sure Priya and Anthony are ready for the Big Play, and so she
wants to see if they can hold up under mental torture first.
- I do also feel a bit confused as to how much power Adelle has over
the Attic in her house. She suggested in "Spy" that she could remove
Dominic's body from the Attic, should she need him to tell the NSA
that everything was fine, and "Epitaph One" seemed to imply this
(though, yes, E1 isn't a reliable source of info). Could she have
just asked Echo to be un-Atticked, or does Rossum have full power over
the Attic, such that Adelle wouldn't be able to remove Echo herself
without arousing suspicion?
I haven't fully processed the episode yet to know whether I love it or
just like it quite a bit. At any rate, while I have some problems
with the actual plotting of this episode (and the show generally--
which I have, incidentally, liked since the very first ep), it was
quite a blast.
One Bit Shy
news:hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> DOLLHOUSE
> Season Two, Episode 10: "The Attic"
> I'd like to think we watch enough of these shows to kind of get a sense of
> how they work. Thus, I doubt I'm alone in having pegged the opening as a
> dream sequence almost immediately.
Probably, but it was too brief for me to get to that point. I was still
just going with the flow when it was revealed as "dream".
> I'm not surprised that _Dollhouse_ eventually got around to doing a dream
> episode. Although this series is arguably more soft sci-fi than outright
> fantasy, it spends enough time playing with brains that it's not so
> surprising. It still feels like we're watching _Dollhouse_.
Once Dominic shows up I think it stops being a dream episode in the way
we're accustomed to in other series. At that point it becomes very
specifically the Dollhouse version, and much more about unraveling the
secrets of the Dollhouse than exploring the psyche of the dreamers. I
almost want to call it something other than dreaming, but of course it still
occurs in a dreamscape and relies on one of Whedon's oldest themes - the
manifestation of one's fears.
> The only thing that felt a bit implausible to me was the "using brains as
> computers" stuff (yeah, the plot of the whole episode), but even that is
> also in keeping with the basic premise/tone of the series.
Within the the series "reality", I think it's totally plausible - even
inevitable. The previous episode partly set the stage by establishing the
network component of the architecture, while seeming to allow the individual
brains to naturally converge on group think. This obviously goes much
further with how the brain is applied, but then the whole series has been a
demonstration of how extensively they can manage brain functions, while Echo
and Alpha have demonstrated capacity.
I think one of the background functions of this episode is to bring home
just how many different ways there are to apply the core dollhouse
technology. One could look at much of the two seasons as an ongoing
demonstration of that variety. The Attic appears to be an especially
extravagant version, yet it is also revealed to be one of the oldest
applications of the technology. (Perhaps key to enabling the others through
it's processing power.) I get a kick out of it being called a "mainframe",
a choice of name that has received some ridicule in comments. But of
course, something of this magnitude would naturally be called a mainframe
when you realize that it was constructed in 1993.
It's not new anymore. Indeed, one suspects it's no longer state of the art.
The relative ease by which Echo escapes in the end reveals how time may be
passing the Attic by. It reminds me a lot of the plot of that old
masterpiece of computer cinema - Tron - where the evil MCP was ultimately
revealed as clumsy old software no longer able to keep up.
Seen this way, "mainframe", with its connotation of both massive power and
obsolescence, seems an especially appropriate name.
Echo, the mobile self aware multi-processor, seems rather more like the wave
of the future.
> Some of it is beautifully shot. I quite like the image of Echo (after
> realizing that she's caught in a loop and admirably keeping her head and
> exploring her environs) climbing out into a swirling snowstorm amidst a
> twisted tree. "Well, that's new." Heh. Have I mentioned how much I've
> been digging Echo these past few shows?
The tree was pretty I suppose, but it didn't really make a strong visual
impression on me. I did like the shadow play in the Japanese restaurant
though. And there was something that felt - right - about Echo choosing to
climb the ladder. I suppose the callback to Epitaph One is part of it. But
more than that too. It feels somehow symbolic to me, even though I can't
quite nail the symbolism.
> And then there are these seeming intrusions back into the real world. My
> initial impression was slight annoyance at being pulled out of some
> captivating dreams into stuff that, although amusing, distracts from the
> mood.
That didn't bother me at all. Partly because I think the dreamscape works
better in small doses. Mostly because I was really interested in what
Adelle and company were up to. Clearly things were coming to a head within
the dollhouse - not just within Echo's headspace.
> I wished (again, these are first-time impressions here) that "The Attic"
> had had the guts to stick with the dreaminess for the whole show.
I didn't. This never felt like a "Restless" kind of show to me - beyond the
superficial trappings. While it did take me a while to work out the
objective, the time in the attic still always felt like a hard charge
towards an external conclusion. The closest Whedon analogy that I can think
of is the Weight of the World when Willow retrieves Buffy from her catatonia
while events continue to swirl outside. Though, of course, the Attic is
mainly it's own story.
> Most of the scenes in the House are at least pretty good, though. An
> indeterminate amount of time has passed since "Stop-Loss," enough to make
> Boyd having stuff going on outside the office and he and Topher all mopey
> together. And hey, Joss's unexpected professed love of football makes its
> way into the show, with the Wildcat formation actually being used as a
> plot point. Ivy and Topher have a great vibe bonding over geeky
> references before Topher again insults her without even realizing it. But
> why does she avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are we
> missing a scene somewhere?
We're missing whatever it is that Adelle told Ivy about Topher. Maybe that
suggests a reveal to come about Topher. Or maybe it's just chopped up story
telling in the final rush. I have no idea.
> Back in the dreamscape, the show spends a few minutes wandering soaking up
> the surrealness and making references to previous episodes and random
> stuff I didn't recognize. (For instance, what's up with the guy that Echo
> tells Dominic is "a long story?")
I assume he's this episode's version of the cheese man.
> But before we get used to that, suddenly it's an action episode, and some
> things are real! And hey, Lawrence Dominic is here, and he's a good guy,
> and he's real too! One of the biggest strengths of "The Attic" is that it
> changes moods abruptly and frequently enough that the viewer never knows
> quite where it's going, and that's a good thing. It's easy to remember
> Dominic as a villain, but remember, his goal has always been to bring down
> the House.
It has?
> Here, the action hero pairing of him with Echo works because it gives them
> someone with different experiences to talk to, so they can piece together
> the plot at a reasonable rate. The "no, you're in *my* head" routine is a
> good example of mixing exposition with wit, the way Mutant Enemy programs
> can do at their best.
I did enjoy that. I was actually kind of impressed that they made it work
so well without descending to a Who's on First redux. It actually feels
like natural confusion and resolution.
> It could be argued that the imagery doesn't get more vivid than the
> interlude with the programmer in the Japanese restaurant. The total
> nonchalance and acceptance with which he tries to, well, "enjoy himself"
I didn't get the meaning of that until second viewing, nor, especially, what
they had to do to escape the dream. I'll write it off to information
overload. (I used to program mainframes myself.)
> "Here goes everything."
> - Echo, "The Attic"
A really simple line. In the back of mind I was actually thinking of the
gambling phrase, "I'm all in," which would be kind of trite I think. So I'm
almost surprised at how effective and powerful that moment is. But it
really is a case of risking everything on a less than certain chance. And
it's sold well. I like what's been done with Echo's character of late too.
> I mentioned feeling like the dreams had momentum, while not loving the
> cuts back to the House. Midway through the episode, this started to
> change, and not totally in a good way. Don't have much to say about the
> real life stuff, except that Penikett does a great job with the not quite
> sentences he's asked to say while Paul is still getting himself in sync.
I want to note Adelle's conversation with Boyd when she instructs him that
the future isn't for the weak. Brutal - and, well, a perfect echo for how
Boyd treated Adelle last episode. Their role reversal overall is quite
striking.
Also small props for Adelle scaring Topher with thoughts of being chopped up
and then switching to some highly specialized oriental dining.
> Basically, the problem is Tony and Priya's dreams. They're outright
> boring. Unimaginatively conceived and unimaginatively staged, and the
> repetition doesn't help. There was actually a fleeting moment in which I
> was prepared to write off the whole episode as an exercise in aimless
> wandering and fighting a bland comic book monster. Some degree of sound
> and fury signifying nothing special.
I agree with you about Victor's dream, which was dragged out to much as well
as being obvious. And though I know it's a nightmare not bound by logic, it
still kept bothering me that soldier Tony would attack with a knife rather
than his gun.
I don't agree with you about Sierra/Priya. That was considerably more
varied and complex. Plus it included the stand-out Viagra line, which I
imagine isn't everybody's idea of humor, but sure made me laugh. I think
the visual feature to stick with the audience is Victor and Sierra finally
getting it on. I would not be surprised if those seconds of pleasure end up
as the high point of their relationship that we get to see. It looked
pretty hot to me. The character feature, on the other hand, is how the
scenario rolls together the three most prominent parts of her psyche - love
for Victor, fear of her old captor, and guilt over murdering him. What more
do you really want?
> Fortunately, "The Attic" is standing by to change moods on us again, just
> at the right time. I'd had enough of Arcane, and then he turned out not
> to be a villain either. This is the kind of episode where the guy killing
> everyone is actually freeing them from torment while fighting to weaken
> the villains. And I love that kind of thing. Arcane is actually a guy
> named Clyde (entertainingly portrayed by actor Adam Godley). . . who has
> visions of "Epitaph One!" The sudden recreation of that set is eerie, and
> I almost expected to see Mag and Zone running across the screen in the
> background.
Arcane isn't especially interesting early on, but the time with him is
brief. I certainly didn't know what he would turn out to be, but I always
expected him to be the manifestation of something more than generic evil.
The one quality he had going for him from the start was mystery to be
solved.
I'm right there with you though on the eerie recreation of the Epitaph One
set. Wasn't that the same music too?
> I don't know if there's a reason to recapitulate the ensuing exposition,
> so I won't. But everything clicked here. Sensible or silly, seeing the
> pieces of the series fit together, solving old mysteries while setting up
> new ones, I was riveted in a way that only the best laid exposition scenes
> can. I could complain about the sketchiness of the mechanisms for jumping
> between dreams or for selectively dying and then coming back (maybe the
> plot twist at the end can help with fanwanking), but when you're
> engrossed, these things barely seem worth mentioning.
I like most of this more or less as you describe. The one thing I'm a
little uncomfortable with is that replicating Epitaph One so closely may
imply that Epitaph One occurred in the Attic rather than in reality.
(Perhaps it was the first scene in the final battle to bring down Rossum.)
One plus is that it may explain the E1 oddity of escaping by climbing up the
ladder at the end. More seriously, I could imagine some pretty neat
scenarios to conclude with, and am hopeful for something very cool. But I'm
nervous too. The seeming reality of the inevitable collapse of civilization
(as we know it) has been a solid anchor for the season. I don't want to let
go of it easily or cheaply.
Oh, and one thing that might be wise to be cautious about is how much Clyde
actually knows about what's going on. Remember, he's been stuck in the
Attic for 17 years. Grand conspiracies can change in profound ways over
such a time frame.
> I think I've hit all the most important points, but I'd like to highlight
> the final musical montage that ends the Attic sequences as a filmmaking
> highlight. The song matches great with the silent playing out of what we
> saw earlier. Special mention to Tony stabbing Priya - hauntingly romantic
> stuff, no sarcasm - and the frantic CPR that helps sell what a razor's
> edge they're walking on with some of these last ditch plans.
Indirectly related - I recently read some commentary expressing disdain for
Whedon's overuse of the closing musical montage. It startled me a little.
While not all of them have been brilliant, I sure thought the device was
highly regarded and included many powerful and memorable moments. I'm
curious about other people's impressions of this common Whedon element.
> "The moment you stepped into this House, you, in effect, gave us your
> life. And you must decide if that life is to put to good use or laid to
> waste. I have seen the future, Mr. Langton. And it is not for the weak."
> - Adelle DeWitt, "The Attic"
Oh, I see you did include that quote. Well, my main comment about it is
above.
> Of course, one of the biggest reasons we keep cutting back to the House is
> to set up that final moment when Echo speaks to an unseen audience. . .
> which turns out to be a room full of conspirators. Adelle's earlier
> scenes find her at the coldest she's ever been, even to those whom we know
> she does care about. I don't know whether that should have been a clue or
> not. But coldness doesn't make her a villain after all. It makes her the
> kind of dark hero who doesn't mind using the hell out of "her" people.
> (Maybe those suggesting that she sees herself in Caroline aren't so far
> off. There's a history between those two that I hope the show has time
> for.)
Getting the goods on Rossum doesn't necessarily make her a hero either. If
she can falsely sell people on being that evil, why couldn't she use the
apparent reversal to falsely sell them on her being good? Not that I'm
promoting that interpretation. It's just that there's only so far the
climactic revelation goes towards defining the full truth of Adelle DeWitt.
I don't think we're done with revelations about her.
> As may have been obvious, I followed my custom such that I had not watched
> "The Attic" yet when I wrote my review of "Stop-Loss." I allowed for the
> possibility that Adelle might be playing a hidden game, but said "if so,
> it would be a twist." And it's a big plot twist of the kind where we
> learn that we previously only saw part of a conversation that appeared to
> be complete. One may recall that the best non-future episode of S1,
> "Needs," also used the same trick.
Well, you know that I don't think "Needs" is close to S1's best, but this
device was well used then.
> Why does it work so well here? Two similar reasons. One related to plot
> mechanics, and one related to character development. The plot reason is
> that like a good twist, it totally re-contextualizes everything the
> audience has just seen into something bigger, and if anything, makes an
> already entertaining series of events that much better. The character
> reason is pretty much the same thing, except all about Adelle.
> _Dollhouse_'s work with this character in this pair of episodes is nothing
> short of brilliant. The fake-out rings totally true as one plausible way
> Adelle could have reacted to hitting bottom, especially given her actions
> in previous weeks. Then the real explanation comes along and makes at
> least as much sense, and she's a richer person for it. Either way would
> be a compelling arc that makes dramatic sense. And it's hard to overstate
> that accomplishment.
I agree with most of the above, but not about the broken conversation
itself. Unlike Needs, when the revealed conversation actually explained
what was happening, the revealed conversation just expands a little on a few
things. The big reveal - along with the only truly important information -
occurred just before that when Echo is shown to have been working for
Adelle. Flashing back to that lost conversation actually steps on the drama
just a little IMO.
As far as Adelle goes, I remain uncertain about a lot.
While I had no real idea what she was up to, I was pretty certain that her
behavior after hitting bottom was a put on. She's played too many games
previously not to think this is manipulation now. Plus there's a quality of
sureness to it that we didn't see even when she was torturing Echo and
declaring that she'll never relinquish control again. The difference I
think is that she seemed to be flailing about then, while she's acting with
purpose this episode.
That's not to say that the in-series characters ought to realize it. If I
had a fire-breathing boss that formidable and leaning on me that hard, I
think I'd be cowed too. I really appreciated the helplessness of Topher's
observation that she's taking them to hell.
I've already mentioned that I stumble a little wondering where she's
actually trying to take them. But what really has me uncertain is how deep
and far back this deception goes.
I'm probably most comfortable with the transformation happening after last
episode's shower scene. She really did act cravenly turning over Topher's
design, and really did descend to a personal hell of bitchy, drunken self
pity and no backbone.
But I keep wondering if it's more complicated than that. Wondering why that
Adelle would expend so much energy torturing Echo. Remembering that Adelle
saw Alpha's photos of what Ballard and Echo had been up to - avidly perused
them, even while she's supposed to be in terror of Alpha. I don't recall
her mentioning those photos to anybody. And she continued the foolishness
of blaming Echo for bringing Alpha inside. And so on. All of this in the
context of an Adelle that is acutely aware of Rossum watching her and surely
playing everything for their benefit. (Though the open discussion with her
conspirators at the end of this episode makes me wonder about that too.
What exactly does Rossum see and not see? There are actually versions of
deception that make this all a Rossum plan.)
I don't want to run around in circles with this. It's just that the pretty
intense race through Adelle's changing psyche these past 3 episodes can't
really leave you certain where she stands at any place in the journey. I'm
going to stick with the most straight forward version of the narrative that
I can see - for the moment. But I also think there are more revelations to
come.
> It's entertaining to me to wonder who knows what during which scenes.
> It's quite possible that Boyd was aware of the whole plan the whole time,
> even going back to the end of "Stop-Loss." If so, he finally found
> something to strongly disapprove of in a non-nonchalant way. But all of
> his scenes work either way.
Personally I think it works better with him in the dark. Adelle's harsh
rebuke of him this episode works best as a reversal of HIs harsh rebuke of
her the prior episode. It's a kind of return of the favor in a fashion that
both will appreciate in the end and not hold against the other. The future
is not for the weak.
Indeed, my impression is that nobody had to know anything substantive until
Echo reported in. Except, probably, Ballard. The only available
explanation I have for Adelle surviving their confrontation is her telling
him that the Attic is a mission. (Well, I suppose there's the unknown thing
taken away from Ballard.)
> Topher, on the other hand, I can't see being in the know prior to the
> final scene. Adelle probably wouldn't trust him with a secret longer than
> necessary.
>
> So all the main characters are allied and ready to step up the fight, and
> Echo still recognizes another missing piece. (Meanwhile, Adam Baldwin
> watches from outside. . . oh, no, wait. . .) And you thought last week
> was exhilarating? Somehow our cast of evil animals, amorals, and
> vegetables has turned into a family group. I care about them,
Excellent observation. It took a long time to get to this place where you
can really see it, but I'm impressed how the series did eventually build its
collection of real, even sympathetic characters. It was just a really
different path than people are accustomed to or seem to have the patience
for.
> and I hold out hope in their hopeless cause to avoid the 97% certainty of
> post-apocalyptic DVD-only codas.
I like post-apocalyptic stories. Hmmm. I think I want to watch A Boy and
His Dog again.
> Loose ends: What was taken away from Paul; who Clyde's former friend and
> copy have become now. I don't see any special benefit to speculating
> right now, but if anyone's read this far and wants to throw ideas around,
> have at it.
Who Clyde 2.0 and friend are certainly is a matter of speculation, but the
primary reveal of the moment is that Caroline saw them. I'm assuming that
was the news that convinced Echo to finally bring back Caroline.
The subtext to this mystery appears to be that we can expect to recognize
them. I don't have a clue myself, but the first speculation I've seen is
Topher and Adelle. I'm skeptical because I think there are some continuity
problems with that. But it's not an entirely unattractive scenario.
Another mystery you didn't mention is Adelle's reference to other people not
there that she's notified to be prepared - presumably additional members of
the conspiracy. Who might those be? There aren't that many candidates that
we know of - many if not most seemingly improbable. My list of candidates
goes: Whiskey, Alpha, November, Bennett, Perrin. (I think Dominic is
already accounted for as on his own track.) Can you think of others?
Regarding Perrin, it occurred to me that they have a copy of his brain scan,
and presumably the consequent means to quietly sabotage the efforts of the
D.C. Dollhouse. There are probably other ways he might be in on Adelle's
plot, but that surely is one way to do it.
> You know what might be interesting, if they can get it to make sense? If
> Caroline signing up for the House in the first place was all part of some
> bigger scheme. I can't work out a way for Adelle to have been in on it
> from the start, not without negating the power of this last run of
> episodes, but what if Caroline was playing her in her seeming desperation?
> It'll be nice to, if nothing else, get an "adult" doll's perspective on
> what her past self was like.
Adelle play somebody? Imagine that.
There's actually a considerable amount of support for that when you consider
how often across the 2 seasons that Adelle has treated Echo as special and
even encouraged her independent behavior. I think she's always had
something in mind for her and that there are revelations to come of some
consequence. But I don't know that it would specifically be your scenario.
> You know what'll be great? Not writing two of these things every weekend
> anymore.
I'm sure.
> One sentence summary: Perhaps the best bit of dream-wankery and retcon
> you'll ever see.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I guess seeing Adelle say thank you counts as the wow moment I've been
looking for. Plus I always get a kick out of Adelle laying down the law and
putting on that cat ate the canary expression she's so good at. So I'll go
along with Excellent too.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
"Jillun" <jills...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7940cdb6-9f90-4de1...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I don't know if it's a serious prediction, but I should be the requisite one
to point out that in interviews - yeah, I know he often jokes and/or lies,
but I don't think this is one of those oftens - Joss has stated that the
_Dollhouse_ show will be the complete story they want to tell. No tie ins
or other media.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:6ee858aa-d18f-46bf...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> So this is my first time posting here. I recently discovered AOQ's
> reviews for _Buffy_ and _Angel_ (and _Firefly_) in various group
> archives and found both the reviews themselvesand the comments
> generated to be really high quality. That out of the way, onto "The
> Attic." I don't have all that much to say about "Stop-Loss" which was
> probably in decent territory for me. But "The Attic"!
Welcome, William. You come at just the kind of time when I'm going through
a mild "if no one's responding, there's no point in posting" crisis. I
might suggest that you consider getting a real Usenet newsgroup client
rather than working through Google, which is an automated system that no one
seems to maintain, since you're missing out on reading/posting to recently
created groups like alt.tv.dollhouse. (In this particular case, though,
a.t.d is liekly to soon be abandoned anyway.)
It's hard to have much to say about "Stop-Loss" once one has seen "The
Attic," huh? I thought "The Public Eye" was in a similar position (but
"Meet Jane Doe" stands on its own).
> Echo's ability to get out of the Attic seemed a bit too simple on a
> first viewing, but it does make some sense that Echo would have a
> particular ability to control her brain patterns, even to the point of
> shutting herself down and rebooting: it's not explicitly mentioned in
> her Adelle scene, but it was the very first solution to the problem
> that Echo came up with (at the episode's beginning) and so it's not as
> if the episode introduces it out of nowhere.
I almost wonder whether Adelle somehow furnished her with knowledge or tools
that'd help with that. It's one of the superpowers that's sort of taken as
a given.
> - On Adelle's play: from a character perspective, I do like it a lot.
> But I'm not sure if it actually makes any sense. I'm willing to let
> her scenes with Topher and Boyd, and what she told Ivy to make her
> cold and distant to Topher, be a bit of a mystery and something for
> fans to reconstruct--I do want to think it through and think of a way
> for it to make sense of the actions of all the players throughout the
> ep. But I do think we should have been given some indication of: *why
> did she send Priya and Anthony to the Attic*? Seriously, it seems
> neither necessary for Adelle-as-Evil-Adelle to send Victor-and-Sierra
> there (unless she's under Rossum's orders?) nor for Adelle-as-Good-
> Adelle to send them there (how would they get any information?).
> About all I can think of is a) she knows that the people are networked
> and that Echo could possibly recruit them for help, or b) she wants to
> make sure Priya and Anthony are ready for the Big Play, and so she
> wants to see if they can hold up under mental torture first.
That's a fair comment. They appear to be on board at the end. We don't
know whether she had a chat with them prior to the Attic the way she did
with Echo, or just wanted Echo to have a support network. Priya insisting
that they're a team is one of the episode's many highlights.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:5oudnZHV0Pd4KLPW...@supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> It's easy to remember Dominic as a villain, but remember, his goal has
>> always been to bring down the House.
>
> It has?
Remember, he was a spy for the NSA (TV version) working agianst Rossum.
After getting exposed, he took glee in his certainty that Echo would end up
destroying the House.
>> It could be argued that the imagery doesn't get more vivid than the
>> interlude with the programmer in the Japanese restaurant. The total
>> nonchalance and acceptance with which he tries to, well, "enjoy himself"
>
> I didn't get the meaning of that until second viewing, nor, especially,
> what they had to do to escape the dream. I'll write it off to information
> overload. (I used to program mainframes myself.)
I didn't absorb it all the first time either, and didn't get the "enjoy
myself" pun at all until surfing the Internets afterward.
> I don't agree with you about Sierra/Priya. That was considerably more
> varied and complex. Plus it included the stand-out Viagra line, which I
> imagine isn't everybody's idea of humor, but sure made me laugh.
In the Av Club review there's an interesting side discussion on that. Some
love it, some respond by saying "ugh, that's a terrible line," and others
respond by saying "yeah, but it's the perfect line for the ultimate
douchebag character to use." Actually, that's pretty much the extent of the
discussion, so maybe not all that interesting.
As for "what more do you want," well, I don't know. Something interesting?
Priya's story seems to hit the same few notes over and over and over, and
this may be forever remembered as the episode where I progressed into
shrugging.
> I like most of this more or less as you describe. The one thing I'm a
> little uncomfortable with is that replicating Epitaph One so closely may
> imply that Epitaph One occurred in the Attic rather than in reality.
> (Perhaps it was the first scene in the final battle to bring down Rossum.)
> One plus is that it may explain the E1 oddity of escaping by climbing up
> the ladder at the end. More seriously, I could imagine some pretty neat
> scenarios to conclude with, and am hopeful for something very cool. But
> I'm nervous too. The seeming reality of the inevitable collapse of
> civilization (as we know it) has been a solid anchor for the season. I
> don't want to let go of it easily or cheaply.
>
> Oh, and one thing that might be wise to be cautious about is how much
> Clyde actually knows about what's going on. Remember, he's been stuck in
> the Attic for 17 years. Grand conspiracies can change in profound ways
> over such a time frame.
Those who complain that E1 ruins the series because it sets the endpoint in
stone - happy now? Joss & co. were emphasizing how there's alot we don't
know, and how anything from a doll's memory might not be reliable. This is
a way to play with the scenario and keep it in mind while still leaving some
doube about where we're going. Your point that Clyde is also an unreliable
narrator is worth thinking about.
>> I think I've hit all the most important points, but I'd like to highlight
>> the final musical montage that ends the Attic sequences as a filmmaking
>> highlight. The song matches great with the silent playing out of what we
>> saw earlier. Special mention to Tony stabbing Priya - hauntingly
>> romantic stuff, no sarcasm - and the frantic CPR that helps sell what a
>> razor's edge they're walking on with some of these last ditch plans.
>
> Indirectly related - I recently read some commentary expressing disdain
> for Whedon's overuse of the closing musical montage. It startled me a
> little. While not all of them have been brilliant, I sure thought the
> device was highly regarded and included many powerful and memorable
> moments. I'm curious about other people's impressions of this common
> Whedon element.
In some circles, I'm sure the closing musical montage to is considered hack
work, just because everyone does it. It helps that it's not in every
episode, but I could stand to see it toned down a little myself. The more
you limit it, the more you can make it count when it matters. (If I can
plug _The Wire_, it does a season-ending musical montage once a year. Now,
the show "earns" the right to go montage-nuts by the fact that normally, all
music comes from the setting, i.e. someone on screen playing a stereo or
whatever. These montages are among the very very rare times that the
audience ever hears "background" music that the characters don't. It's
always brilliant.)
>> "The moment you stepped into this House, you, in effect, gave us your
>> life. And you must decide if that life is to put to good use or laid to
>> waste. I have seen the future, Mr. Langton. And it is not for the
>> weak."
>> - Adelle DeWitt, "The Attic"
>
> Oh, I see you did include that quote. Well, my main comment about it is
> above.
[snip]
> As far as Adelle goes, I remain uncertain about a lot.
>
> While I had no real idea what she was up to, I was pretty certain that her
> behavior after hitting bottom was a put on. She's played too many games
> previously not to think this is manipulation now. Plus there's a quality
> of sureness to it that we didn't see even when she was torturing Echo and
> declaring that she'll never relinquish control again. The difference I
> think is that she seemed to be flailing about then, while she's acting
> with purpose this episode.
>
>
> I've already mentioned that I stumble a little wondering where she's
> actually trying to take them. But what really has me uncertain is how
> deep and far back this deception goes.
>
> I'm probably most comfortable with the transformation happening after last
> episode's shower scene. She really did act cravenly turning over Topher's
> design, and really did descend to a personal hell of bitchy, drunken self
> pity and no backbone.
I'm with you there. These episodes have enough power in their depiction of
her state that it'd be a shame to see them reduced to an act too. Unless
it's done in a really cool way, anyway. It starts to brush at the edges of
the "you can never believe anything, ever!" that can be so leaden. We don't
need a repeat of the messages to Paul from S1.
>> It's entertaining to me to wonder who knows what during which scenes.
>> It's quite possible that Boyd was aware of the whole plan the whole time,
>> even going back to the end of "Stop-Loss." If so, he finally found
>> something to strongly disapprove of in a non-nonchalant way. But all of
>> his scenes work either way.
>
> Personally I think it works better with him in the dark. Adelle's harsh
> rebuke of him this episode works best as a reversal of HIs harsh rebuke of
> her the prior episode. It's a kind of return of the favor in a fashion
> that both will appreciate in the end and not hold against the other. The
> future is not for the weak.
I don't see why it necessarily works better (or worse, for that matter).
Either way, Adelle is taking Echo-related action without his input or
consent.
I just don't think there's anything in either "Stop-Loss" or "The Attic"
that one can point to and clearly say "Boyd didn't know that the Attic was
part of Adelle and Echo's plan." In fact, some scenes become more
interesting to me re-interpreted in such a way - "this will blow up in your
face!" for instance, and "you sent her there just as much as I did." And
Adelle's question of whether Boyd's life will be used for something
worthwhile picks up a layer if they both know where they stand.
-AOQ
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Fortunately, "The Attic" is standing by to change moods on us again, just at
> the right time. I'd had enough of Arcane, and then he turned out not to be
> a villain either. This is the kind of episode where the guy killing
> everyone is actually freeing them from torment while fighting to weaken the
> villains. And I love that kind of thing. Arcane is actually a guy named
> Clyde (entertainingly portrayed by actor Adam Godley). . . who has visions
> of "Epitaph One!" The sudden recreation of that set is eerie, and I almost
> expected to see Mag and Zone running across the screen in the background.
Clyde sounds suspiciously like Clive.
Clyde is the Uber-Geek who has been stuck in the world's most
sophisticated computer game for 17 years. He adopted the avatar Arcane
because it sounded "bad-ass." He probably secretly enjoyed a lot of the
game play.
One Bit Shy
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:5oudnZHV0Pd4KLPW...@supernews.com...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>>> It's easy to remember Dominic as a villain, but remember, his goal has
>>> always been to bring down the House.
>>
>> It has?
>
> Remember, he was a spy for the NSA (TV version) working agianst Rossum.
> After getting exposed, he took glee in his certainty that Echo would end
> up destroying the House.
Well, he was in a looking for revenge mode by then. Considering that he
tried to both kill Echo and send her to the Attic earlier, I don't think he
was always looking forward to Echo destroying the house.
>> I don't agree with you about Sierra/Priya. That was considerably more
>> varied and complex. Plus it included the stand-out Viagra line, which I
>> imagine isn't everybody's idea of humor, but sure made me laugh.
>
> In the Av Club review there's an interesting side discussion on that.
> Some love it, some respond by saying "ugh, that's a terrible line," and
> others respond by saying "yeah, but it's the perfect line for the ultimate
> douchebag character to use." Actually, that's pretty much the extent of
> the discussion, so maybe not all that interesting.
I go with all 3 myself. Yes it's disgusting. Yes it's funny. Yes it's
perfect for the ultimate douchebag. For an added frame of reference I'm
wondering if this represents an expansion of zombie powers. It's not just
your brains they want.
> As for "what more do you want," well, I don't know. Something
> interesting? Priya's story seems to hit the same few notes over and over
> and over, and this may be forever remembered as the episode where I
> progressed into shrugging.
I can't help your tolerance level. I just thought it was interesting to
have all three things weighing on her mind wrapped up into one body that she
has to make love to. To me that's a really messed up nightmare.
I know, but there's stuff that keeps nagging at me. I was reviewing my
"Meet Jane Doe" comments and was reminded how much of Adelle's behavior then
looked an awful lot like her past scheming. Like the way she really dug at
Topher was so much like her performance in "Belonging" when she manipulated
Topher into doing the necessary thing.
There's a list of such things, but the biggest to my mind is the alternate
answer to your "Stop Loss" question of how to recognize when Adelle really
hits bottom. From the point of view of Adelle putting on a show all along,
the answer is clear. She transforms herself when she sees that Echo is
ready for the Attic. Echo demonstrates that by the way she handles the hive
mind of those soldiers. That's the trigger. Until then Adelle would just
be putting on a show for Rossum to convince them she's no threat, while she
waits for Echo to finish developing.
I don't think I like that story as well - not right now anyway. But there's
a lot that makes it plausible.
>>> It's entertaining to me to wonder who knows what during which scenes.
>>> It's quite possible that Boyd was aware of the whole plan the whole
>>> time, even going back to the end of "Stop-Loss." If so, he finally
>>> found something to strongly disapprove of in a non-nonchalant way. But
>>> all of his scenes work either way.
>>
>> Personally I think it works better with him in the dark. Adelle's harsh
>> rebuke of him this episode works best as a reversal of HIs harsh rebuke
>> of her the prior episode. It's a kind of return of the favor in a
>> fashion that both will appreciate in the end and not hold against the
>> other. The future is not for the weak.
>
> I don't see why it necessarily works better (or worse, for that matter).
> Either way, Adelle is taking Echo-related action without his input or
> consent.
>
> I just don't think there's anything in either "Stop-Loss" or "The Attic"
> that one can point to and clearly say "Boyd didn't know that the Attic was
> part of Adelle and Echo's plan." In fact, some scenes become more
> interesting to me re-interpreted in such a way - "this will blow up in
> your face!" for instance, and "you sent her there just as much as I did."
> And Adelle's question of whether Boyd's life will be used for something
> worthwhile picks up a layer if they both know where they stand.
I just realized that we're probably working with a different premise. I had
been thinking that Adelle's mean act was largely show to maintain the
secret - especially from Rossum. I had assumed that if Boyd knew her
intentions, he wouldn't be hurt by her behavior - that his decline would be
an act too. What hadn't occurred to me is that it might be just as hurtful
to Boyd even if he knew Adelle's plan for Echo. Indeed, Adelle's criticism
of Boyd may have nothing at all to do with being a bitch and keeping a
secret. It might be the product of Boyd not wanting Echo to take this risk
even knowing that it's a mission she's on.
That's an interesting thought, but to be honest, I'm already taken aback a
bit by Boyd's behavior. The one thing you could always count on him for was
taking things in stride. His decline this episode feels wrong even with the
best excuse. But if he knows that Echo is on a mission, I find it really
hard to credit. This is the guy, after all, who stood by as Echo was
tortured and told Ballard to, "man up."
OBS
Ken from Chicago
Arbitrar, Lucy says she'll hold the football so you can kick it.
-- Ken from Chicago
Jillun
> That's an interesting thought, but to be honest, I'm already taken aback a
> bit by Boyd's behavior. The one thing you could always count on him for was
> taking things in stride. His decline this episode feels wrong even with the
> best excuse. But if he knows that Echo is on a mission, I find it really
> hard to credit. This is the guy, after all, who stood by as Echo was
> tortured and told Ballard to, "man up."
>
> OBS
Clearly Boyd is Clyde 2.0!
As to other people's mentioned problems with Sierra's nightmare
world... doesn't anyone take into account that, for Priya, all of this
JUST happened yesterday? Or the day before yesterday.
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> It could be argued that the imagery doesn't get more vivid than the
> interlude with the programmer in the Japanese restaurant. The total
> nonchalance and acceptance with which he tries to, well, "enjoy himself"
> sells the moment as much as anything else in the strange but captivating
> sequence.
Remember, he has discovered the weakness or flaw in the Attic. When
questioned by Echo and Dominic, "What is the weakness?" He replies, "I
must enjoy myself."
The Attic is fueled by the adrenalin of recurring nightmares, forcing
brains to work at top speed and efficiency (think Fight/Flight
response), and he has discovered the weakness. "I must enjoy myself."
Notice how peaceful and contented he is. It is infuriating for Echo and
Dominic (and the audience), but running would only elevate his adrenalin
levels. The solution, "I must enjoy myself." Literally.
> .
> "Here goes everything."
> - Echo, "The Attic"
>
> I mentioned feeling like the dreams had momentum, while not loving the cuts
> back to the House. Midway through the episode, this started to change, and
> not totally in a good way. Don't have much to say about the real life
> stuff, except that Penikett does a great job with the not quite sentences
> he's
> asked to say while Paul is still getting himself in sync. Basically, the
> problem is Tony and Priya's dreams. They're outright boring.
> Unimaginatively conceived and unimaginatively staged, and the repetition
> doesn't help. There was actually a fleeting moment in which I was prepared
> to write off the whole episode as an exercise in aimless wandering and
> fighting a bland comic book monster. Some degree of sound and fury
> signifying nothing special.
They are recurring nightmares, designed to cause the greatest anxiety.
The recurring part is necessary. They are the most deep-seated and
intractable fears for these characters.
One Bit Shy
On Dec 21, 4:14 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> Clearly Boyd is Clyde 2.0!
I'm voting for Ivy to be Clyde's friend - the Rossum mastermind behind it
all.
David Barnett
news:hgmt6l$h11$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> "WilliamTheB" <astonis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6ee858aa-d18f-46bf...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
>> So this is my first time posting here. I recently discovered AOQ's
>> reviews for _Buffy_ and _Angel_ (and _Firefly_) in various group
>> archives and found both the reviews themselvesand the comments
>> generated to be really high quality. That out of the way, onto "The
>> Attic." I don't have all that much to say about "Stop-Loss" which was
>> probably in decent territory for me. But "The Attic"!
>
> Welcome, William. You come at just the kind of time when I'm going
> through a mild "if no one's responding, there's no point in posting"
> crisis.
Well I have been "lurking" myself, and I think there must be other lurkers.
Anyway I am grateful for your posts and the reply posts of One Bit Shy.
You both point out things I have missed or misinterpreted.
I also think this show is too intelligent for a lot of viewers, possible
explanation of low ratings.
<snip>
--
David Barnett
One Bit Shy
news:hgmt6l$h11$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> news:6ee858aa-d18f-46bf...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>> Echo's ability to get out of the Attic seemed a bit too simple on a
>> first viewing, but it does make some sense that Echo would have a
>> particular ability to control her brain patterns, even to the point of
>> shutting herself down and rebooting: it's not explicitly mentioned in
>> her Adelle scene, but it was the very first solution to the problem
>> that Echo came up with (at the episode's beginning) and so it's not as
>> if the episode introduces it out of nowhere.
>
> I almost wonder whether Adelle somehow furnished her with knowledge or
> tools that'd help with that. It's one of the superpowers that's sort of
> taken as a given.
I think it's a naturally developed ability that's supposed to be somewhat a
mystery - as in not understood or even fully recognized by Rossum
scientists. Part of the idea of Echo is that she develops somewhat under
the radar because the techies can't conceive of the possibility. That was
probably clearer last season. They haven't exactly emphasized it this
season. Rather we're seeing the result exploited. Evidently Adelle has
been the one who has best seen the possibilities in her. Why that is
remains somewhat a mystery. Maybe that will become clearer shortly.
Dominic also caught on early, though he saw Echo as a threat. Boyd still
doesn't understand it, but may have been the first to see the reality of her
special qualities in action, and to believe what he saw.
I digress. Back to the question at hand. I think one of the things we've
been shown in recent episodes is Echo developing her unique (other than
Alpha maybe) ability to manage many diverse imprints. The change from
fragmented flashbacks to a somewhat halting (and headache inducing) transfer
of personalities to the instant swapping with Echo always in charge. I
think the previous episode was meant as essential foundation for her entry
into the Attic because it showed her effectively taking over another
network. She doesn't take over the Attic, but she slips into its
architecture unnaturally fast and figured out quickly how to game it.
(Clyde had been there 17 years and wasn't as adept as her by the end.) So I
think the only thing Echo actually needed from Adelle was the mission.
William's observation that Echo solved the escape problem right at the start
is a good one. Escaping the Attic was never really a challenge. But that
wasn't her whole mission. She continued her exploration to find the Attic's
secrets (and to save Sierra and Victor). I take the depiction of early
escape attempts to be a clue that there was more to her being there than
just being locked up by Adelle.
>> - On Adelle's play: from a character perspective, I do like it a lot.
>> But I'm not sure if it actually makes any sense. I'm willing to let
>> her scenes with Topher and Boyd, and what she told Ivy to make her
>> cold and distant to Topher, be a bit of a mystery and something for
>> fans to reconstruct--I do want to think it through and think of a way
>> for it to make sense of the actions of all the players throughout the
>> ep. But I do think we should have been given some indication of: *why
>> did she send Priya and Anthony to the Attic*? Seriously, it seems
>> neither necessary for Adelle-as-Evil-Adelle to send Victor-and-Sierra
>> there (unless she's under Rossum's orders?) nor for Adelle-as-Good-
>> Adelle to send them there (how would they get any information?).
>> About all I can think of is a) she knows that the people are networked
>> and that Echo could possibly recruit them for help, or b) she wants to
>> make sure Priya and Anthony are ready for the Big Play, and so she
>> wants to see if they can hold up under mental torture first.
>
> That's a fair comment. They appear to be on board at the end. We don't
> know whether she had a chat with them prior to the Attic the way she did
> with Echo, or just wanted Echo to have a support network. Priya insisting
> that they're a team is one of the episode's many highlights.
Stepping outside of the story for a moment, my first guess as to why Sierra
and Victor are there is that the writers thought it would be more exciting
and interesting to have them there, they need to use their paid actors, and
it's easier to demonstrate the Attic concept with familiar characters and
their familiar fears than creating all new characters. I don't know that
they necessarily had a ready in-story explanation. They may have figured
that it was easy to slip it in without comment and leave it to the viewers
to come up with their own explanation should they even notice the question.
That said, my first thought as to why Adelle sent them to the attic too, is
that it would give incentive to Echo to stay inside and figure out what's
going on. She'd want to save them. Adelle may be working for the cause of
good now, but that doesn't make her nice or any less ruthless.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:hgmt6l$h11$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> news:6ee858aa-d18f-46bf...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>> Echo's ability to get out of the Attic seemed a bit too simple on a
>> first viewing, but it does make some sense that Echo would have a
>> particular ability to control her brain patterns, even to the point of
>> shutting herself down and rebooting: it's not explicitly mentioned in
>> her Adelle scene, but it was the very first solution to the problem
>> that Echo came up with (at the episode's beginning) and so it's not as
>> if the episode introduces it out of nowhere.
>
> I almost wonder whether Adelle somehow furnished her with knowledge or
> tools that'd help with that. It's one of the superpowers that's sort of
> taken as a given.
I think it's a naturally developed ability that's supposed to be somewhat a
>> - On Adelle's play: from a character perspective, I do like it a lot.
>> But I'm not sure if it actually makes any sense. I'm willing to let
>> her scenes with Topher and Boyd, and what she told Ivy to make her
>> cold and distant to Topher, be a bit of a mystery and something for
>> fans to reconstruct--I do want to think it through and think of a way
>> for it to make sense of the actions of all the players throughout the
>> ep. But I do think we should have been given some indication of: *why
>> did she send Priya and Anthony to the Attic*? Seriously, it seems
>> neither necessary for Adelle-as-Evil-Adelle to send Victor-and-Sierra
>> there (unless she's under Rossum's orders?) nor for Adelle-as-Good-
>> Adelle to send them there (how would they get any information?).
>> About all I can think of is a) she knows that the people are networked
>> and that Echo could possibly recruit them for help, or b) she wants to
>> make sure Priya and Anthony are ready for the Big Play, and so she
>> wants to see if they can hold up under mental torture first.
>
> That's a fair comment. They appear to be on board at the end. We don't
> know whether she had a chat with them prior to the Attic the way she did
> with Echo, or just wanted Echo to have a support network. Priya insisting
> that they're a team is one of the episode's many highlights.
Stepping outside of the story for a moment, my first guess as to why Sierra
One Bit Shy
news:KyRXm.63812$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hgmt6l$h11$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> "WilliamTheB" <astonis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6ee858aa-d18f-46bf...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> So this is my first time posting here. I recently discovered AOQ's
>>> reviews for _Buffy_ and _Angel_ (and _Firefly_) in various group
>>> archives and found both the reviews themselvesand the comments
>>> generated to be really high quality. That out of the way, onto "The
>>> Attic." I don't have all that much to say about "Stop-Loss" which was
>>> probably in decent territory for me. But "The Attic"!
>>
>> Welcome, William. You come at just the kind of time when I'm going
>> through a mild "if no one's responding, there's no point in posting"
>> crisis.
>
> Well I have been "lurking" myself, and I think there must be other
> lurkers.
> Anyway I am grateful for your posts and the reply posts of One Bit Shy.
> You both point out things I have missed or misinterpreted.
Thanks for the kind comment. It's just a process of assuming that things
happen for a reason, that questions can be answered, and then working it
out. I've learned enough about the Mutant Enemy method to know that the
writers actually do spend a lot of time discussing arcane plot ideas and try
very hard to make all the details of story, theme and character development
work together and constantly support multiple objectives. They're not
perfect. They don't cover everything. They can't. It's still 45 minute
episodes written to deadline and peculiar external demands. But they do try
to pay attention to loose ends, make calculated decisions on what to leave
open, and actually close far more than many viewers recognize or believe.
Alas, many viewers respond to anything less than instant explanation as
unforgivable plot holes or just too complicated to watch. I actually
appreciate that perspective, but it's just not going to work with this kind
of show.
Of course I'm vulnerable to my own gaps in understanding. As much as it
pains me to admit it, I miss stuff and get other things plain wrong plenty
often. But I still find my approach to watching flat out fun, frequently
revealing wonderful notions, and when I'm wrong, it's often revealed to be
something far more intriguing than I first conceived. Dollhouse is an
exercise in discovery. That's where I find the pleasure.
> I also think this show is too intelligent for a lot of viewers, possible
> explanation of low ratings.
I might write more later on what I think about the small viewership. Maybe.
I think most of the contributing reasons have been raised frequently.
There's a pretty big mix of, I think, mostly legitimate factors. But I do
often come back to the suspicion that there never was a way to "fix"
Dollhouse without converting it to a story Whedon and company didn't want to
tell. I remarked a little while ago that existential philosophy doesn't
earn ratings points. There's more to it than just that, but I strongly
suspect that the kind of sophistication sought for in this series just
doesn't sell on network TV. I'm reluctant to blame viewer intelligence. Or
even term any of this as "blame" worthy. Leisure time is a voluntary
activity with many virtues besides (and sometimes in opposition to)
intellectual stimulation. Not to mention that there is no obligation for
anybody, smart or otherwise, to be interested in this particular
intellectual stimulation.
I don't really begrudge people their preferences. I just wish there was
more room for and longer time given to ventures like this too.
OBS
Ben Morrow
Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> just how many different ways there are to apply the core dollhouse
> technology. One could look at much of the two seasons as an ongoing
> demonstration of that variety. The Attic appears to be an especially
> extravagant version, yet it is also revealed to be one of the oldest
> applications of the technology. (Perhaps key to enabling the others through
> it's processing power.) I get a kick out of it being called a "mainframe",
> a choice of name that has received some ridicule in comments. But of
> course, something of this magnitude would naturally be called a mainframe
> when you realize that it was constructed in 1993.
>
> It's not new anymore. Indeed, one suspects it's no longer state of the art.
> The relative ease by which Echo escapes in the end reveals how time may be
> passing the Attic by. It reminds me a lot of the plot of that old
> masterpiece of computer cinema - Tron - where the evil MCP was ultimately
> revealed as clumsy old software no longer able to keep up.
>
> Seen this way, "mainframe", with its connotation of both massive power and
> obsolescence, seems an especially appropriate name.
I find it odd that noone has yet mentioned the large number of 'Matrix'
references this episode (all the ideas are older than that, of course,
but it was one of the first popular depictions of them). I suspect the
word 'mainframe' is part of that, given its importance in the films.
> Echo, the mobile self aware multi-processor, seems rather more like the wave
> of the future.
I think Echo's multi-tasking rather than multi-processing :). The
group-mind was a multi-processor.
> > Most of the scenes in the House are at least pretty good, though. An
> > indeterminate amount of time has passed since "Stop-Loss," enough to make
> > Boyd having stuff going on outside the office and he and Topher all mopey
> > together. And hey, Joss's unexpected professed love of football makes its
> > way into the show, with the Wildcat formation actually being used as a
> > plot point. Ivy and Topher have a great vibe bonding over geeky
> > references before Topher again insults her without even realizing it. But
> > why does she avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are we
> > missing a scene somewhere?
>
> We're missing whatever it is that Adelle told Ivy about Topher. Maybe that
> suggests a reveal to come about Topher. Or maybe it's just chopped up story
> telling in the final rush. I have no idea.
Well, Adelle told Topher she had been preparing Ivy to be his
replacement. On the face of it, and given Topher's rather recent
friendliness, that would seem enough to make Ivy shy of him for a
minute. I suspect that's not all, though: my first thought was that
Adelle had somehow arranged for Ivy to be imprinted, though I suspect
that's unlikely at this point.
> > But before we get used to that, suddenly it's an action episode, and some
> > things are real! And hey, Lawrence Dominic is here, and he's a good guy,
> > and he's real too! One of the biggest strengths of "The Attic" is that it
> > changes moods abruptly and frequently enough that the viewer never knows
> > quite where it's going, and that's a good thing. It's easy to remember
> > Dominic as a villain, but remember, his goal has always been to bring down
> > the House.
>
> It has?
Not really, no, though it might be now. His original mission was to keep
it under control, but being stuck in the Attic is likely to change
someone's mind.
> I'm right there with you though on the eerie recreation of the Epitaph One
> set. Wasn't that the same music too?
Yes, it was. IIRC it was the Jed/Mo song from right at the end.
> Indirectly related - I recently read some commentary expressing disdain for
> Whedon's overuse of the closing musical montage. It startled me a little.
> While not all of them have been brilliant, I sure thought the device was
> highly regarded and included many powerful and memorable moments. I'm
> curious about other people's impressions of this common Whedon element.
He (/they, given that this wasn't a Joss episode) certainly uses it a
lot, but I don't think that's a bad thing. It *is* necessary to be
completely engaged in the story at that point, otherwise it just comes
across as tacky emotional manipulation (which it is, of course :)).
> > "The moment you stepped into this House, you, in effect, gave us your
> > life. And you must decide if that life is to put to good use or laid to
> > waste. I have seen the future, Mr. Langton. And it is not for the weak."
> > - Adelle DeWitt, "The Attic"
>
> Oh, I see you did include that quote. Well, my main comment about it is
> above.
The line that stuck out for me there was 'I have seen the future', which
along with the sudden and slightly forced reveal that Clyde doesn't
even remember the sex of his 'friend' seems clearly intended to point
the finger at DeWitt. It would be slightly tricky to explain how she
came to occupy such a relatively lowly position, of course.
> > Of course, one of the biggest reasons we keep cutting back to the House is
> > to set up that final moment when Echo speaks to an unseen audience. . .
> > which turns out to be a room full of conspirators. Adelle's earlier
> > scenes find her at the coldest she's ever been, even to those whom we know
> > she does care about. I don't know whether that should have been a clue or
> > not. But coldness doesn't make her a villain after all. It makes her the
> > kind of dark hero who doesn't mind using the hell out of "her" people.
> > (Maybe those suggesting that she sees herself in Caroline aren't so far
> > off. There's a history between those two that I hope the show has time
> > for.)
>
> Getting the goods on Rossum doesn't necessarily make her a hero either. If
> she can falsely sell people on being that evil, why couldn't she use the
> apparent reversal to falsely sell them on her being good? Not that I'm
> promoting that interpretation. It's just that there's only so far the
> climactic revelation goes towards defining the full truth of Adelle DeWitt.
> I don't think we're done with revelations about her.
I'm sure we haven't. Remember that by the time of Epitaph One she has
given Caroline (or Echo, or whoever it was in Dushku's body at the time)
reason to kill her.
> > Loose ends: What was taken away from Paul; who Clyde's former friend and
> > copy have become now. I don't see any special benefit to speculating
> > right now, but if anyone's read this far and wants to throw ideas around,
> > have at it.
>
> Who Clyde 2.0 and friend are certainly is a matter of speculation, but the
> primary reveal of the moment is that Caroline saw them. I'm assuming that
> was the news that convinced Echo to finally bring back Caroline.
>
> The subtext to this mystery appears to be that we can expect to recognize
> them. I don't have a clue myself, but the first speculation I've seen is
> Topher and Adelle. I'm skeptical because I think there are some continuity
> problems with that. But it's not an entirely unattractive scenario.
I don't think Topher's likely. Clyde 2.0 is supposed to have no
ambition, no will of his own, and that doesn't really describe Topher.
(It could describe pre-wiping Perrin, though, which would be...
interesting.)
> > You know what might be interesting, if they can get it to make sense? If
> > Caroline signing up for the House in the first place was all part of some
> > bigger scheme. I can't work out a way for Adelle to have been in on it
> > from the start, not without negating the power of this last run of
> > episodes, but what if Caroline was playing her in her seeming desperation?
> > It'll be nice to, if nothing else, get an "adult" doll's perspective on
> > what her past self was like.
>
> Adelle play somebody? Imagine that.
>
> There's actually a considerable amount of support for that when you consider
> how often across the 2 seasons that Adelle has treated Echo as special and
> even encouraged her independent behavior. I think she's always had
> something in mind for her and that there are revelations to come of some
> consequence. But I don't know that it would specifically be your scenario.
I hope we don't get too many schemes-within-schemes. That's what killed
Angel S4. OTOH, the very first line of the series is 'Nothing is what
it appears to be.', from Adelle to Caroline over tea, *seen through a
security camera*. The possibility that Adelle and Caroline have been
colluding against Rossum from the start must be considered.
Ben
Ben Morrow
Quoth WilliamTheB <astonis...@gmail.com>:
>
> - On Adelle's play: from a character perspective, I do like it a lot.
> But I'm not sure if it actually makes any sense. I'm willing to let
> her scenes with Topher and Boyd, and what she told Ivy to make her
> cold and distant to Topher, be a bit of a mystery and something for
> fans to reconstruct--I do want to think it through and think of a way
> for it to make sense of the actions of all the players throughout the
> ep. But I do think we should have been given some indication of: *why
> did she send Priya and Anthony to the Attic*? Seriously, it seems
> neither necessary for Adelle-as-Evil-Adelle to send Victor-and-Sierra
> there (unless she's under Rossum's orders?) nor for Adelle-as-Good-
> Adelle to send them there (how would they get any information?).
> About all I can think of is a) she knows that the people are networked
> and that Echo could possibly recruit them for help, or b) she wants to
> make sure Priya and Anthony are ready for the Big Play, and so she
> wants to see if they can hold up under mental torture first.
Evil-Adelle (either Working-For-Rossum Adelle or simply Out-To-Regain-
Control-Of-The-'House-At-Any-Cost Adelle) had good reason to send Victor
and Sierra to the Attic: they are getting to be as self-aware as Echo,
and therefore potentially as dangerous. I agree that Good-Adelle doesn't
have any obvious good reaon to do so, though both the reasons you give
are good enough weak reaons :).
> - I do also feel a bit confused as to how much power Adelle has over
> the Attic in her house. She suggested in "Spy" that she could remove
> Dominic's body from the Attic, should she need him to tell the NSA
> that everything was fine, and "Epitaph One" seemed to imply this
> (though, yes, E1 isn't a reliable source of info). Could she have
> just asked Echo to be un-Atticked, or does Rossum have full power over
> the Attic, such that Adelle wouldn't be able to remove Echo herself
> without arousing suspicion?
I suspect that removing a *body* is quite a different matter from
removing a *mind*. Since it seems fairly clear Adelle doesn't even know
what goes on there in detail, I doubt she can have much direct control.
> I haven't fully processed the episode yet to know whether I love it or
> just like it quite a bit. At any rate, while I have some problems
> with the actual plotting of this episode (and the show generally--
> which I have, incidentally, liked since the very first ep), it was
> quite a blast.
Jed and Maurissa seem to have quite a knack for seriously showy
episodes, don't they?
Ben
Horace LaBadie
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> Stepping outside of the story for a moment, my first guess as to why Sierra
> and Victor are there is that the writers thought it would be more exciting
> and interesting to have them there, they need to use their paid actors, and
> it's easier to demonstrate the Attic concept with familiar characters and
> their familiar fears than creating all new characters. I don't know that
> they necessarily had a ready in-story explanation. They may have figured
> that it was easy to slip it in without comment and leave it to the viewers
> to come up with their own explanation should they even notice the question.
>
> That said, my first thought as to why Adelle sent them to the attic too, is
> that it would give incentive to Echo to stay inside and figure out what's
> going on. She'd want to save them. Adelle may be working for the cause of
> good now, but that doesn't make her nice or any less ruthless.
More likely it was a selling point or sweetener for her contention that
Echo had to be sent to the Attic rather than turned into a weapon. They
were all rogue Dolls on the same mission, and to put them all in the
Attic makes DeWitt's argument stronger. Victor had been compromised
directly by contact with Echo in the neural radio net, and Sierra had
somehow been put back into her Priya state, possibly by Echo.
One Bit Shy
news:gtt507-...@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org...
I believe Joss did recently re-affirm that Matrix is his favorite movie.
But I'm sticking with my Tron analogy. I do so go for the classics.
>> Echo, the mobile self aware multi-processor, seems rather more like the
>> wave
>> of the future.
>
> I think Echo's multi-tasking rather than multi-processing :). The
> group-mind was a multi-processor.
Oops. I sure let that one slip past. It's kind of curious though.
Continuing with the metaphor Echo appears to be essentially running a bunch
of virtual machines on her single processor. Her architecture might
actually be more like the old mainframes. But the mobile self aware part
still holds. Plus she's just been upgraded (from her soldier exploit) to
handle a wireless network. The attic still seems comparatively clumsy.
>> > "The moment you stepped into this House, you, in effect, gave us your
>> > life. And you must decide if that life is to put to good use or laid to
>> > waste. I have seen the future, Mr. Langton. And it is not for the
>> > weak."
>> > - Adelle DeWitt, "The Attic"
>>
>> Oh, I see you did include that quote. Well, my main comment about it is
>> above.
>
> The line that stuck out for me there was 'I have seen the future', which
> along with the sudden and slightly forced reveal that Clyde doesn't
> even remember the sex of his 'friend' seems clearly intended to point
> the finger at DeWitt. It would be slightly tricky to explain how she
> came to occupy such a relatively lowly position, of course.
Continuity would be a difficult hurdle, but not impossible. At least she
doesn't have to be a doll herself to be Clyde's old friend. (That's a real
problem for making Topher Clyde 2.) If true, it would probably tie in
closely Echo's role and Adelle's intentions for her all along. The
revelation would probably explain a whole host of things along the way. And
there have been a number of little things that could be taken as hints for
this outcome. For example, I recently posted about the curious revelation
that Adelle seems to have a scientific background.
I don't discount the idea. It's just that it's so - well - extravagant.
There's so much upheaval built into it that it almost has to be carried off
spectacularly well, or else it will seem a great disappointment.
>> > Loose ends: What was taken away from Paul; who Clyde's former friend
>> > and
>> > copy have become now. I don't see any special benefit to speculating
>> > right now, but if anyone's read this far and wants to throw ideas
>> > around,
>> > have at it.
>>
>> Who Clyde 2.0 and friend are certainly is a matter of speculation, but
>> the
>> primary reveal of the moment is that Caroline saw them. I'm assuming
>> that
>> was the news that convinced Echo to finally bring back Caroline.
>>
>> The subtext to this mystery appears to be that we can expect to recognize
>> them. I don't have a clue myself, but the first speculation I've seen is
>> Topher and Adelle. I'm skeptical because I think there are some
>> continuity
>> problems with that. But it's not an entirely unattractive scenario.
>
> I don't think Topher's likely. Clyde 2.0 is supposed to have no
> ambition, no will of his own, and that doesn't really describe Topher.
> (It could describe pre-wiping Perrin, though, which would be...
> interesting.)
It depends what those things really mean. For Clyde 2.0 to be of any use,
he would have to be curious - driven even - to solve scientific problems
around his technology. The Topher we were first introduced to had no
interest in anything beyond his work. Utterly amoral rather than immoral
because he simply didn't think about it. But within his realm he was an
inquisitive genius. I think he suits the Clyde 2.0 concept quite well.
But I'm sensing misdirect with Topher. If you want to go that there,
Bennett serves just as well. Plus we know that she's met Caroline - with a
mysterious relationship between the two. The problem with both, however, is
that they have supposedly been proven not to be dolls. I'm beginning to be
suspicious of that determination with Bennett though. The scene of Topher
trying to tazer Bennett with his new remote device actually feels a little
forced in retrospect. Foreshadowing perhaps?
Assuming they're not going to bring in an unknown, there really aren't that
many candidates for Clyde 2 and friend.
>> > You know what might be interesting, if they can get it to make sense?
>> > If
>> > Caroline signing up for the House in the first place was all part of
>> > some
>> > bigger scheme. I can't work out a way for Adelle to have been in on it
>> > from the start, not without negating the power of this last run of
>> > episodes, but what if Caroline was playing her in her seeming
>> > desperation?
>> > It'll be nice to, if nothing else, get an "adult" doll's perspective on
>> > what her past self was like.
>>
>> Adelle play somebody? Imagine that.
>>
>> There's actually a considerable amount of support for that when you
>> consider
>> how often across the 2 seasons that Adelle has treated Echo as special
>> and
>> even encouraged her independent behavior. I think she's always had
>> something in mind for her and that there are revelations to come of some
>> consequence. But I don't know that it would specifically be your
>> scenario.
>
> I hope we don't get too many schemes-within-schemes. That's what killed
> Angel S4. OTOH, the very first line of the series is 'Nothing is what
> it appears to be.', from Adelle to Caroline over tea, *seen through a
> security camera*. The possibility that Adelle and Caroline have been
> colluding against Rossum from the start must be considered.
My expression for Angel S4 was, "Everything you know is wrong." You know,
maybe it was all a weird expression of Joss's Matrix love.
For me, the problem with Angel S4 wasn't just that there were so many levels
of deception. It was that the upshot seemed to be that nothing much had
mattered in the meantime. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the resolution
to Dollhouse entails massive reversals of prior perceptions. But I'm also
expecting that such revelations will serve to add meaning to what we've seen
and what people have done along the way. I sure hope so anyway. That would
be one of my tests for the conclusion.
But speaking of complications, I have no idea whatsoever what Dr. Saunders
will bring to this game. I really can't imagine her as Clyde 2 or friend.
But we've been led to believe that her role will be important. I'm
massively curious about her return. As I recall, Acker was contracted for 3
episodes this season, so we ought to get a double dose of her at the end.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:hwlabadiejr-5503...@news.isp.giganews.com...
So, see? There really isn't a lack of good reasons for sending Sierra and
Victor to the Attic too.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:KyRXm.63812$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I also think this show is too intelligent for a lot of viewers, possible
> explanation of low ratings.
Well, we just have ot deal wiht the fact that many people haven't heard of
_Dollhouse_, and among those who have, a fair number aren't interested. We
can talk about the different reasons it's not "accesible." I will not call
it a matter of intelligence per se - I've decided that "the reason [piece of
pop-culture] isn't more popular is that people are stupid" is both
meaningless and a pretty douche-y thing to say. I wish more people's tastes
in entertainment were similar to mine, but such is life.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:LOSdnaeEHv44T7LW...@supernews.com...
Reminder for those speculating: Clyde 2.0 is a doll. Unless it is
retconned in some way, Boyd is pretty well established as a non-doll, as are
several others (Adelle, Topher, Paul pre-"The Attic,"and Bennett among
them).
Clyde's friend may still be an "actual." However, there does not appear to
be anything in-story stopping him/her from having downloaded to another
body, or even duplicating.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> > references before Topher again insults her without even realizing it.
>> > But
>> > why does she avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are we
>> > missing a scene somewhere?
>>
>> We're missing whatever it is that Adelle told Ivy about Topher. Maybe
>> that
>> suggests a reveal to come about Topher. Or maybe it's just chopped up
>> story
>> telling in the final rush. I have no idea.
>
> Well, Adelle told Topher she had been preparing Ivy to be his
> replacement. On the face of it, and given Topher's rather recent
> friendliness, that would seem enough to make Ivy shy of him for a
> minute. I suspect that's not all, though: my first thought was that
> Adelle had somehow arranged for Ivy to be imprinted, though I suspect
> that's unlikely at this point.
Her reaction isn't "shy for a minute." It's "stay away from me, I don't
want anything to do with you" for a minute. That suggests something like
hearing about Topher's involvement in murder, or perhaps hearing that Adelle
and/or Rossum has tagged him as someone to potentially "retire," or
something along one of those lines. . . except that then it appears to be
completely dropped the next time they're on screen together. Maybe they'll
explain it better, but jsut for the purposes of this episode, it feels badly
out of place.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
>> - I do also feel a bit confused as to how much power Adelle has over
>> the Attic in her house. She suggested in "Spy" that she could remove
>> Dominic's body from the Attic, should she need him to tell the NSA
>> that everything was fine, and "Epitaph One" seemed to imply this
>> (though, yes, E1 isn't a reliable source of info). Could she have
>> just asked Echo to be un-Atticked, or does Rossum have full power over
>> the Attic, such that Adelle wouldn't be able to remove Echo herself
>> without arousing suspicion?
>
> I suspect that removing a *body* is quite a different matter from
> removing a *mind*. Since it seems fairly clear Adelle doesn't even know
> what goes on there in detail, I doubt she can have much direct control.
That's a good point. The impression I get is that once someone's been
Attic'd, you can chat with a crude copy of their personality in another
body, or you can drag their hollowed body back out and use it (perhaps only
briefly) as a doll, but the original identity in its original form dies
(unless they're a main cast member and figure out how to escape). There are
a few more kinks we'd have to work out of that explanation, but it seems to
be closest to what's been shown so far.
-AOQ
William George Ferguson
It had occurred to me awhile ago that Ivy is the only recurring LA
Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
isn't a doll. Is that still true?
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
One Bit Shy
news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
used to be, but who cares anymore.
That's all I can think of.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:LOSdnaeEHv44T7LW...@supernews.com...
>> "Jillun" <jills...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:206c0860-98c3-4b98...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 21, 4:14 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Clearly Boyd is Clyde 2.0!
>>
>> I'm voting for Ivy to be Clyde's friend - the Rossum mastermind behind it
>> all.
>
> Reminder for those speculating: Clyde 2.0 is a doll. Unless it is
> retconned in some way, Boyd is pretty well established as a non-doll, as
> are several others (Adelle, Topher, Paul pre-"The Attic,"and Bennett among
> them).
Not necessarily. I can think of two not especially ridiculous counter
scenarios. The simplest is for Bennett, who may have just fooled Topher
with her mod to his hand device, actually disabling it. (Temporarily)
She's a very attractive candidate for the role of Clyde 2.0. There's
obviously a lot of back story to her that hasn't been told. She knew
Caroline under mysterious circumstances, which fits Clyde's description of
Caroline having met those two. And there are a variety of peculiarities
about her behavior and position that suggest something special. For
example, you may recall the offhand remark by someone that she thinks she
runs the place.
The second scenario is considerably more convoluted, but still has a kind of
sense to it. Clyde might actually be Clyde 2.0 without realizing it. This
would make sense because he's described as the original prisoner in the
attic. In other words, the prototype. It would be entirely logical to use
a copy, rather than the original, as a test subject. That removes the doll
requirement for the real world Clyde, but I still don't think it works for
Topher or Bennett because they're too young.
> Clyde's friend may still be an "actual." However, there does not appear
> to be anything in-story stopping him/her from having downloaded to another
> body, or even duplicating.
The more I think about it, the more it looks to me that the writers are
pointing at Adelle to be Clyde's friend. That, of course, could be a
misdirect. But either way I think suspicion is deliberately being cast her
direction.
Too many things to recount, but I want to remind of one thing in particular,
going all the way back to last season's Echoes - episode 7. That's when
Rossum made its grand entrance with its lab, and independent research, and
charismatic famous president. It's also when Adelle expressed envy for the
latter - actually asserting that she should have had his job.... I think
that deserves some pause for thought. I remember thinking that was awfully
bold of Adelle to think she should be in charge of a mega-corporation like
that.
In the same episode she was positively aggressive in expressing (albeit
vaguely) a kind of idealistic vision of where the Dollhouse technology was
going. Her independent vision shows up repeatedly in the series, both as
vague generalization, and as specific demands on Topher. That sure sounds
like Clyde's friend. As does her lack of concern for consequence.
Lastly, the assorted hints at her past seem to suggest that she played a
central role in establishing the L.A. Dollhouse, which increasingly is
looking like it was the original Dollhouse. At that time, running the
Dollhouse may well have looked like the best most exciting job in Rossum -
and the one best suited to pursuing Clyde's friend's vision. But times
change, and corporations diversify, and other people with vision of their
own show up...
Oh, and I have one kind of open ended question with numerous possible
answers. Why exactly does Rossum continue to put up with Adelle at all?
OBS
Harold Groot
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>Reminder for those speculating: Clyde 2.0 is a doll. Unless it is
>retconned in some way, Boyd is pretty well established as a non-doll, as are
>several others (Adelle, Topher, Paul pre-"The Attic,"and Bennett among
>them).
I'm not so sure about Bennett. I'd have to go back and re-watch the
episode, but it seemed to me when first watching it that since she had
had enough time with Topher's device to figure it out she might also
have had enough time to find a way to counter it. Either sabotage his
device or find a way to shield herself from it. So while I'm not
saying "she IS a doll", I'm still in the "she MIGHT be a doll" camp.
Ben Morrow
Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> news:hgqlum$4ru$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >
> > retconned in some way, Boyd is pretty well established as a non-doll, as
> > are several others (Adelle, Topher, Paul pre-"The Attic,"and Bennett among
> > them).
>
> Not necessarily. I can think of two not especially ridiculous counter
> scenarios. The simplest is for Bennett, who may have just fooled Topher
> with her mod to his hand device, actually disabling it. (Temporarily)
> She's a very attractive candidate for the role of Clyde 2.0. There's
> obviously a lot of back story to her that hasn't been told. She knew
> Caroline under mysterious circumstances, which fits Clyde's description of
> Caroline having met those two. And there are a variety of peculiarities
> about her behavior and position that suggest something special. For
> example, you may recall the offhand remark by someone that she thinks she
> runs the place.
I quite like this. VZQo frm Fhzzre jvyy or onpx, fb vg'f fgvyy n
cbffvovyvgl.
> The second scenario is considerably more convoluted, but still has a kind of
> sense to it. Clyde might actually be Clyde 2.0 without realizing it. This
> would make sense because he's described as the original prisoner in the
> attic. In other words, the prototype. It would be entirely logical to use
> a copy, rather than the original, as a test subject. That removes the doll
> requirement for the real world Clyde, but I still don't think it works for
> Topher or Bennett because they're too young.
A much simpler possibility is that Clyde 2.0 is currently occupying
Clyde 1's body. Fvapr Tbqyrl qbrfa'g nccrne ntnva V fhccbfr gung'f abg
yvxryl.
> Oh, and I have one kind of open ended question with numerous possible
> answers. Why exactly does Rossum continue to put up with Adelle at all?
Why would they not? Except for her loss of Echo, which she got around by
blackmail, she has been very careful to only let them see her doing an
excellent job. Replacing someone like her can't be easy: apart from
anything else, you have to find someone you can trust. I'm sure Rossum
have some way to ruin Adelle, if they need to.
Ben
Ben Morrow
Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
> > isn't a doll. Is that still true?
>
> We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
> But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
> use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
> used to be, but who cares anymore.
Hmmm. *Do* we know he wasn't a Doll before? AFAIR Topher only saw his
brain scans after he was braindead, which could well kill the 'Active
architecture', or at least hide it.
Ben
scenario_dave
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in messagenews:LOSdnaeEHv44T7LW...@supernews.com...
>
> >news:206c0860-98c3-4b98...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> > On Dec 21, 4:14 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >> Clearly Boyd is Clyde 2.0!
>
> > I'm voting for Ivy to be Clyde's friend - the Rossum mastermind behind it
> > all.
>
> Reminder for those speculating: Clyde 2.0 is a doll. Unless it is
> retconned in some way, Boyd is pretty well established as a non-doll, as are
> several others (Adelle, Topher, Paul pre-"The Attic,"and Bennett among
> them).
>
> Clyde's friend may still be an "actual." However, there does not appear to
> be anything in-story stopping him/her from having downloaded to another
> body, or even duplicating.
>
> -AOQ
How about Carolyn is Clyde's daughter? Clyde only sort of remembers
her so he remembers her as a friend. She was causing trouble and the
only way that Clyde stopped the DC dollhouse from killing her was by
changing her into doll 17 years ago. He added a few minor
enhancements that the DC dollhouse didn't know about. These
enhancements also ended up being accidentally included in Alpha.
They used her as Clyde 2.0 for a while but she changed. They wiped
her and put back a new Carolyn with extr fake memories and sent her
out on her own. She got into trouble again, so she ended up in the LA
dollhouse.
Clyde 2 could also be Bennett. Topher used his gadget on her in her
lab. She may already have invented the device, hid it, had a damping
device, and lied about it to Topher. Less likely but possible.
Don Sample
Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
> Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
>
> > The second scenario is considerably more convoluted, but still has
> > a kind of sense to it. Clyde might actually be Clyde 2.0 without
> > realizing it. This would make sense because he's described as the
> > original prisoner in the attic. In other words, the prototype. It
> > would be entirely logical to use a copy, rather than the original,
> > as a test subject. That removes the doll requirement for the real
> > world Clyde, but I still don't think it works for Topher or Bennett
> > because they're too young.
>
> A much simpler possibility is that Clyde 2.0 is currently occupying
> Clyde 1's body.
But Clyde 1's body is in the attic.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Horace LaBadie
Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
They have his scan done by Alpha. It would show normal state versus Doll
state.
William George Ferguson
If Paul was a planted doll in season 1, the whole Victor/Tony and
November/Mellie charades make no sense whatsoever.
Do we have any other named recurring character other than Ivy? Lessee,
There were the various FBI people in season 1, but they've all dropped off
the radar, there's the Rossum/Dollhouse people not in the LA house (mainly
Harding and Bennett Halvorson), Mellie in the first season is November, Dr.
Saunders in the first season is Whiskey, Perrin in the second season is a
doll, any other named recurring characters?
One Bit Shy
news:56cd5e34-e279-4d1c...@g12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> How about Carolyn is Clyde's daughter? Clyde only sort of remembers
> her so he remembers her as a friend. She was causing trouble and the
> only way that Clyde stopped the DC dollhouse from killing her was by
> changing her into doll 17 years ago. He added a few minor
> enhancements that the DC dollhouse didn't know about. These
> enhancements also ended up being accidentally included in Alpha.
> They used her as Clyde 2.0 for a while but she changed. They wiped
> her and put back a new Carolyn with extr fake memories and sent her
> out on her own. She got into trouble again, so she ended up in the LA
> dollhouse.
On first read I thought that was the silliest thing I'd heard yet. But on
further consideration, maybe not. If Epitaph One actually occurred in the
dreamscape of the Attic, which has to be considered a real possibility, if
not probability, now that we know Clyde's nightmare occurs in exactly the
same location; then some of the people we saw in it are probably going to be
representations of something going on in a dreamer's mind.
The person of interest here becomes the little girl in Epitaph One - the
hidden active who readily betrays and kills to preserve herself, but is
eventually overcome and imprinted with Caroline. You'll note that there
were a couple of brief shots of a little girl in the Attic too, though they
were too quick for me to tell if it was the same girl. That suggests that
the little girl is important to the story - to Caroline/Echo specifically.
I don't know that she has to be Clyde's daughter, though that's one scenario
to build from. But whatever the origin, this might suggest that Caroline
grew up as a doll - maybe as an experiment - probably unknowing. Adelle
would have known about her all along. Any number of reasons might have led
to her being brought into the Dollhouse anew. Perhaps her awareness of her
nature was breaking through and causing trouble. Whatever the reason, it
would explain a variety of things ranging to why she went to that school,
living in the shadow of the Rossum lab, to why Adelle kept nurturing her
development in spite of Alpha like symptoms. Hell, buried in there might
even be an explanation of why Alpha was drawn to her and Bennett thought
Echo had some kind of special mesmerizing power.
One of the neat things about the concept is that Echo might be more
literally identical to Caroline than anybody has considered. Echo as a
doll, might have "grown up" in much the same way that Caroline has. Their
similarities might not be the product of some kind of "body memory" as
previously suggested, but rather a function of how they're constructed to
begin with. So the ultimate surprise of the reunion with Caroline might be
that there won't be any conflict at all.
This still seems kind of over the top, but it sure is an entertaining idea,
and there's enough to it that I can't dismiss it.
By the way. Why couldn't it be Clyde's friend's daughter instead? That
would especially make sense if Clyde's friend turns out to be
Adelle.
> Clyde 2 could also be Bennett. Topher used his gadget on her in her
> lab. She may already have invented the device, hid it, had a damping
> device, and lied about it to Topher. Less likely but possible.
If that's the scenario, then the mechanics ought to be simpler. We saw
Bennett directly fiddle with Topher's gadget. Indeed, she actually
instructed him how to make it.
OBS
One Bit Shy
LOL! OK, I give. Nothing is real for sure.
OBS
WilliamTheB
> might suggest that you consider getting a real Usenet newsgroup client
> rather than working through Google, which is an automated system that no one
> seems to maintain, since you're missing out on reading/posting to recently
> created groups like alt.tv.dollhouse. (In this particular case, though,
> a.t.d is liekly to soon be abandoned anyway.)
Thanks. I already have a google account, which is less useful but
already there. And I can read the Usenet pages, just can't post,
which is, um....
> It's hard to have much to say about "Stop-Loss" once one has seen "The
> Attic," huh? I thought "The Public Eye" was in a similar position (but
> "Meet Jane Doe" stands on its own).
Indeed. The double-episode schedule actually worked out in the show's
favour in some respects--the second episodes of the first and third
double-bill towered over the second. (I liked "Meet Jane Doe" and "A
Love Supreme" about equally, maybe preferring the second a bit.)
> I almost wonder whether Adelle somehow furnished her with knowledge or tools
> that'd help with that. It's one of the superpowers that's sort of taken as
> a given.
Granted. I like what OBS said below as well.
> That's a fair comment. They appear to be on board at the end. We don't
> know whether she had a chat with them prior to the Attic the way she did
> with Echo, or just wanted Echo to have a support network. Priya insisting
> that they're a team is one of the episode's many highlights.
You know, at first I was a bit skeptical about that moment--have these
two episodes really built up quite enough for Priya to want to latch
onto Echo in such a big way? But I guess she saved Anthony which is
pretty important to her. It does seem like the other details--saving
Priya's life in "Stop-Loss," and in the Attic, might endear her to
Priya, although both are also in situations that Echo directly or
indirectly got her into--which may be part of the point.
I also think that "Stop-Loss" helped to establish Anthony as requiring
a mission to give himself meaning, so that his going on board with
Echo's plan is nicely set up and a little bit morally ambiguous--with
both Echo and Adelle using Priya and Anthony by manipulating their
hang-ups.
WilliamTheB
> been shown in recent episodes is Echo developing her unique (other than
> Alpha maybe) ability to manage many diverse imprints. The change from
> fragmented flashbacks to a somewhat halting (and headache inducing) transfer
> of personalities to the instant swapping with Echo always in charge. I
> think the previous episode was meant as essential foundation for her entry
> into the Attic because it showed her effectively taking over another
> network. She doesn't take over the Attic, but she slips into its
> architecture unnaturally fast and figured out quickly how to game it.
> (Clyde had been there 17 years and wasn't as adept as her by the end.) So I
> think the only thing Echo actually needed from Adelle was the mission.
I agree with this to a point. It still seems that it's a pretty big
leap for Adelle to think that Echo would be able to get out of the
Attic, and for Echo to know that she can basically shut her body down
and reboot it. (Kinda neat how the fact that she's essentially
REBOOTING connects directly with the doll-architecture, humans-as-
computers thing, though this maybe is a deliberate connection to a
computer system.) I guess Adelle doesn't have too many other options.
> William's observation that Echo solved the escape problem right at the start
> is a good one.
Thanks!
> Stepping outside of the story for a moment, my first guess as to why Sierra
> and Victor are there is that the writers thought it would be more exciting
> and interesting to have them there, they need to use their paid actors, and
> it's easier to demonstrate the Attic concept with familiar characters and
> their familiar fears than creating all new characters.
Oh, definitely. And they made good use of it with Sierra at least.
And made use of Enver's twin for the Victor sequences. (The fact that
it didn't amount to much kind of makes me admire the _Buffy_ writers
even more for holding off until season five before they came up with a
story good enough to use Nicky Brendon's twin.)
> I don't know that
> they necessarily had a ready in-story explanation. They may have figured
> that it was easy to slip it in without comment and leave it to the viewers
> to come up with their own explanation should they even notice the question.
> That said, my first thought as to why Adelle sent them to the attic too, is
> that it would give incentive to Echo to stay inside and figure out what's
> going on. She'd want to save them. Adelle may be working for the cause of
> good now, but that doesn't make her nice or any less ruthless.
If that's true, it would seem like Echo would be a lot madder at her.
For Priya and Anthony to be living their nightmares, and then be
willing to trust Adelle at the episode's end, she has to have some
reason.
Maybe Rossum is watching, and gave her orders to put them in the Attic
(along with their suggestion to use Echo as a weapon); since Echo
could conceivably have taken weeks or months before figuring a way
out, she'd have no way to hold onto her job in the interim without
following them.
I do wonder how the next episode is going to deal with the Attic break-
out, and whether Rossum is going to know that, you know, their guards
were attacked and three inmates burst out of the asylum.
Ben Morrow
Quoth Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net>:
> In article <28q707-...@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>,
> Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
> > Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> >
> > > The second scenario is considerably more convoluted, but still has
> > > a kind of sense to it. Clyde might actually be Clyde 2.0 without
> > > realizing it. This would make sense because he's described as the
> > > original prisoner in the attic. In other words, the prototype. It
> > > would be entirely logical to use a copy, rather than the original,
> > > as a test subject. That removes the doll requirement for the real
> > > world Clyde, but I still don't think it works for Topher or Bennett
> > > because they're too young.
> >
> > A much simpler possibility is that Clyde 2.0 is currently occupying
> > Clyde 1's body.
>
> But Clyde 1's body is in the attic.
How do we know that? It's established that minds in the Attic can jump
between bodies. I suppose the continued existence of 'his' nightmare
might demonstrate his body is still connected, but it seems pretty weird
that a particular nightmare should be connected to a particular physical
body.
Ben
WilliamTheB
> "Ben Morrow" <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:qeq707-...@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> >>news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
>
> >> > It had occurred to me awhile ago that Ivy is the only recurring LA
> >> > Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
> >> > isn't a doll. Is that still true?
>
> >> We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
> >> But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
> >> use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
> >> used to be, but who cares anymore.
>
> > Hmmm. *Do* we know he wasn't a Doll before? AFAIR Topher only saw his
> > brain scans after he was braindead, which could well kill the 'Active
> > architecture', or at least hide it.
>
> LOL! OK, I give. Nothing is real for sure.
>
> OBS
Well, there's still "Echoes," in which the dolls and the non-dolls
reacted differently to the drug. So we know that Boyd, Adelle and
Topher, at least as of that episode, weren't dolls.
Ben Morrow
Quoth William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com>:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:31:38 +0000, Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
> >Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> >> "William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> >> news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> > It had occurred to me awhile ago that Ivy is the only recurring LA
> >> > Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
> >> > isn't a doll. Is that still true?
> >>
> >> We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
> >> But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
> >> use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
> >> used to be, but who cares anymore.
> >
> >Hmmm. *Do* we know he wasn't a Doll before? AFAIR Topher only saw his
> >brain scans after he was braindead, which could well kill the 'Active
> >architecture', or at least hide it.
>
> November/Mellie charades make no sense whatsoever.
They could. All it requires is that *someone* doesn't know he's a Doll,
and someone who does wants to get him inside the LA House. Any of
'Adelle', 'Harding', 'Clyde's friend' will fit in either of those slots,
along with maybe 'Caroline' and 'Bennett'.
> Do we have any other named recurring character other than Ivy? Lessee,
> There were the various FBI people in season 1, but they've all dropped off
> the radar, there's the Rossum/Dollhouse people not in the LA house (mainly
> Harding and Bennett Halvorson), Mellie in the first season is November, Dr.
> Saunders in the first season is Whiskey, Perrin in the second season is a
> doll, any other named recurring characters?
Hearn and Nolan, but they're dead; Detective Badger and the woman in
records who helped Paul at the FBI. Nolan could be a candidate for
Clyde's Friend, though that would be a little too neat.
Ben
Ben Morrow
Quoth WilliamTheB <astonis...@gmail.com>:
> On Dec 22, 5:59 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> > LOL! OK, I give. Nothing is real for sure.
>
> reacted differently to the drug. So we know that Boyd, Adelle and
> Topher, at least as of that episode, weren't dolls.
Dominic as well, it's worth remembering.
Unless Topher was a Doll at that point, or he was lying about the
effects, or... bwahahahaha!
Ain't paranoia grand?
Ben
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:31:38 +0000, Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
> >> "William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> >> news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> > It had occurred to me awhile ago that Ivy is the only recurring LA
> >> > Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
> >> > isn't a doll. Is that still true?
> >>
> >> We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
> >> But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
> >> use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
> >> used to be, but who cares anymore.
> >
> >Hmmm. *Do* we know he wasn't a Doll before? AFAIR Topher only saw his
> >brain scans after he was braindead, which could well kill the 'Active
> >architecture', or at least hide it.
> >
> >Ben
>
> If Paul was a planted doll in season 1, the whole Victor/Tony and
> November/Mellie charades make no sense whatsoever.
They just show that the LA Dollhouse didn't know what was going on. He
might have been a Doll planted by someone else, either one of DeWitt's
rivals within Rossum, or someone outside of it. The Dollhouse technology
might not be exclusive to Rossum. We know that the NSA knows about
Rossum, and they may have developed the tech for themselves, or stolen
it. Maybe some of Rossum's rivals have developed it too, but are using
it in different ways.
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:5da3c5c3-1893-4894...@r14g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> I also think that "Stop-Loss" helped to establish Anthony as requiring
> a mission to give himself meaning, so that his going on board with
> Echo's plan is nicely set up and a little bit morally ambiguous--with
> both Echo and Adelle using Priya and Anthony by manipulating their
> hang-ups.
Okay, this is why I bother with all this writing about a TV show. Sometimes
someone just comes up with a totally different way of looking at some aspect
of an episode that I never would have thought of.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:O-qdna7Cx8L9vbLW...@supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hgmvpi$ooa$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> I just don't think there's anything in either "Stop-Loss" or "The Attic"
>> that one can point to and clearly say "Boyd didn't know that the Attic
>> was part of Adelle and Echo's plan." In fact, some scenes become more
>> interesting to me re-interpreted in such a way - "this will blow up in
>> your face!" for instance, and "you sent her there just as much as I did."
>> And Adelle's question of whether Boyd's life will be used for something
>> worthwhile picks up a layer if they both know where they stand.
>
> I just realized that we're probably working with a different premise. I
> had been thinking that Adelle's mean act was largely show to maintain the
> secret - especially from Rossum. I had assumed that if Boyd knew her
> intentions, he wouldn't be hurt by her behavior - that his decline would
> be an act too. What hadn't occurred to me is that it might be just as
> hurtful to Boyd even if he knew Adelle's plan for Echo. Indeed, Adelle's
> criticism of Boyd may have nothing at all to do with being a bitch and
> keeping a secret. It might be the product of Boyd not wanting Echo to
> take this risk even knowing that it's a mission she's on.
>
> That's an interesting thought, but to be honest, I'm already taken aback a
> bit by Boyd's behavior. The one thing you could always count on him for
> was taking things in stride. His decline this episode feels wrong even
> with the best excuse. But if he knows that Echo is on a mission, I find
> it really hard to credit. This is the guy, after all, who stood by as
> Echo was tortured and told Ballard to, "man up."
Forgot to respond to this bit. Well, point taken, but since Boyd's behavior
is unusual to begin with, I don't think the one explanation makes it any
harder to credit than the other. The show could just be pushing at the
edges of his character, getting our attention by showing us one of the few
things that can hit the normally unflappable Boyd really hard.
(The other thing that I don't know whether the show will expand on is his
issues "at home." That strikes me as a very unusual thing to mention, such
that it could very well mean something. The people who brought this to my
attention tend to hope that whatever it is, it's Whiskey-related.)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
"Horace LaBadie" <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote in message
news:hwlabadiejr-907A...@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It could be argued that the imagery doesn't get more vivid than the
>> interlude with the programmer in the Japanese restaurant. The total
>> nonchalance and acceptance with which he tries to, well, "enjoy himself"
>> sells the moment as much as anything else in the strange but captivating
>> sequence.
>
> Remember, he has discovered the weakness or flaw in the Attic. When
> questioned by Echo and Dominic, "What is the weakness?" He replies, "I
> must enjoy myself."
>
> The Attic is fueled by the adrenalin of recurring nightmares, forcing
> brains to work at top speed and efficiency (think Fight/Flight
> response), and he has discovered the weakness. "I must enjoy myself."
> Notice how peaceful and contented he is. It is infuriating for Echo and
> Dominic (and the audience), but running would only elevate his adrenalin
> levels. The solution, "I must enjoy myself." Literally.
Hmm. I didn't think of it as a direct answer to Echo's question, but you
could well be right. The most common form of the line is "I have to *try*
to enjoy myself," suggesting that this is part of the nightmare, or his not
entirely successful way of coping with it. His transquility is only surface
deep, and there are a few hints of that. I kinda imagined him as a Rossum
employee loyal to the core, accepting that if he's a problem, he needs to be
taken care of. So I'm finding the idea of him staying calm as an act of
rebellion to be an interesting way of looking at it.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
And I could buy into that if Boyd thought that this was it. Adelle had put
Echo down. But if he knew that this was a mission she was supposed to come
back from, it's hard for me to imagine him not wanting to be there in top
shape the moment she needs him.
> (The other thing that I don't know whether the show will expand on is his
> issues "at home." That strikes me as a very unusual thing to mention,
> such that it could very well mean something. The people who brought this
> to my attention tend to hope that whatever it is, it's Whiskey-related.)
Something extra in his Christmas stocking, huh?
On that note, I'll wish everybody a wonderful Christmas holiday. I'm outta
here for a bit.
OBS
Marc Espie
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>I'm not surprised that _Dollhouse_ eventually got around to doing a dream
>episode. Although this series is arguably more soft sci-fi than outright
>fantasy, it spends enough time playing with brains that it's not so
>surprising. It still feels like we're watching _Dollhouse_. The only thing
>that felt a bit implausible to me was the "using brains as computers" stuff
>(yeah, the plot of the whole episode), but even that is also in keeping with
>the basic premise/tone of the series. Some of it is beautifully shot. I
>quite like the image of Echo (after realizing that she's caught in a loop
>and admirably keeping her head and exploring her environs) climbing out into
>a swirling snowstorm amidst a twisted tree. "Well, that's new." Heh. Have
>I mentioned how much I've been digging Echo these past few shows?
Just saw the episode (very late, I know) and skimmed through the discussion.
Am I the only one who sees vivid imagery references to _Kill Bill_ in this
whole episode ?
>Fortunately, "The Attic" is standing by to change moods on us again, just at
>the right time. I'd had enough of Arcane, and then he turned out not to be
>a villain either. This is the kind of episode where the guy killing
>everyone is actually freeing them from torment while fighting to weaken the
>villains. And I love that kind of thing. Arcane is actually a guy named
>Clyde (entertainingly portrayed by actor Adam Godley). . . who has visions
>of "Epitaph One!" The sudden recreation of that set is eerie, and I almost
>expected to see Mag and Zone running across the screen in the background.
Yeah, I keep hoping to see Felicia Day in that episode. I figure that,
with as few episodes as we've got left, it would be really nice to finally
piece that part of the puzzle together.
Oh well, we probably won't get her. Let's hope for Ami Acker's comeback
instead.
Still reeling from the episode. Pity season 1 is so weak, comparatively,
and season 2 is so arcane now. It will be really tough selling this amazing
show to outsiders (like, have faith, watch through 10 not so good episodes
so that you can get to the amazing part ?)
Arbitrar Of Quality
news:hh3kfb$jo8$1...@saria.nerim.net...
> In article <hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Still reeling from the episode. Pity season 1 is so weak, comparatively,
> and season 2 is so arcane now. It will be really tough selling this
> amazing
> show to outsiders (like, have faith, watch through 10 not so good episodes
> so that you can get to the amazing part ?)
I have to wonder how much appeal even S2 would have to people who aren't
intrigued by the premise in the early going. Now everyone's revisiting
their estimates of how long you have to keep watching until the show "gets
good" - the old dogma was that the first five were the "bad ones" and #6 was
the start of the good stuff, and now some are ready to write off the entire
first season. I don't really see it that way. _Dollhouse_ was always a
show that I liked, and moved past "not so good" a long time ago.
I don't think it's really all that unusual a phenomenon for a TV series to
take some time to work out its strengths. Just within the ME canon, it's
generally agreed that both _Buffy_ and _Angel_ had their moments early, but
were not at their best during the first 10-12 episodes.
This also means that we can make wild claims that _Dollhouse_ would have
kept getting better and better and better had it not been cancelled, kinda
like the beyond-perfection five-season version of _Firefly_ that exists in
our imagination.
-AOQ
Horace LaBadie
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > Most of the scenes in the House are at least pretty good, though. An
> > indeterminate amount of time has passed since "Stop-Loss," enough to make
> > Boyd having stuff going on outside the office and he and Topher all mopey
> > together. And hey, Joss's unexpected professed love of football makes its
> > way into the show, with the Wildcat formation actually being used as a
> > plot point. Ivy and Topher have a great vibe bonding over geeky
> > references before Topher again insults her without even realizing it. But
> > why does she avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are we
> > missing a scene somewhere?
>
> We're missing whatever it is that Adelle told Ivy about Topher. Maybe that
> suggests a reveal to come about Topher. Or maybe it's just chopped up story
> telling in the final rush. I have no idea.
If DeWitt's interview with Ivy followed the pattern of her other
conferences with principal players, then there must have been a "come to
Jesus" moment in which DeWitt let Ivy know that nothing goes on in the
House that she as Head of House (HoH) does not find out about. Ivy might
assume that DeWitt could only have learned about it, whatever it was,
from Topher.
Or Ivy might have been the hinted-at second mole.
Marc Espie
>news:hh3kfb$jo8$1...@saria.nerim.net...
>> In article <hgkma8$miv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
>> Still reeling from the episode. Pity season 1 is so weak, comparatively,
>> and season 2 is so arcane now. It will be really tough selling this
>> amazing
>> show to outsiders (like, have faith, watch through 10 not so good episodes
>> so that you can get to the amazing part ?)
>
>I have to wonder how much appeal even S2 would have to people who aren't
>intrigued by the premise in the early going. Now everyone's revisiting
>their estimates of how long you have to keep watching until the show "gets
>good" - the old dogma was that the first five were the "bad ones" and #6 was
>the start of the good stuff, and now some are ready to write off the entire
>first season. I don't really see it that way. _Dollhouse_ was always a
>show that I liked, and moved past "not so good" a long time ago.
Well, back when I was watching season 1, I was reasonably happy with it.
A bit subpar compared to what Joss can do, usually, but reasonable.
It's just that Epitaph 1 + season 2 blowed me away so much that season 1
pales in comparison. I find it really, really good, but it's totally
unwatchable without the setup of season 1...
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:hh59lt$5ku$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
But with BUFFY and ANGEL you could explain in a sentence what each was about
(Buffy slays vampires, Angel is a reformed vampire who helps the helpless).
FIREFLY was harder to explain even with the opening narration and DOLLHOUSE
... try explaining it concisely to someone who's never seen it.
Plus, reportedly Joss and co. themselves had trouble figuring it out
themselves. I think the true "pilot" episode was a few weeks ago when Echo
had the "three months later" to master her abilities and go back to the
Dollhouse to take it down from within. The series could have been made more
accessible to audiences if that was the pilot and Boyd's arrival was told in
flashbacks like the original pilot, with early signs that Echo was
"special".
Moreover Echo's specialness could have been used in single-episode stories,
having Echo, instead of merely giving clients what they want, sensed what
they needed. In so doing, it could have put her at odds with Rossum since
clients who truly get what they need would no longer need to turn to the
Dollhouse (e.g., a car that truly lasts a lifetime means no repeat business
for the carmaker, thus "planned obsolescene"). Audiences could have followed
the single-episode drama / action / romance / tragedy, with the "hook" of
finding out what the clients truly need--ala TWILIGHT ZONE fans waiting for
the "twist" ending.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hvv1j5pq03ojk7e7s...@4ax.com...
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ben Morrow" <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
>>> > >Ivy and Topher have a great vibe bonding over geeky
>>>> > references before Topher again insults her without even realizing it.
>>>> > But
>>>> > why does she avoid him later and then seem to forget about it? Are
>>>> > we
>>>> > missing a scene somewhere?
>>>>
>>>> We're missing whatever it is that Adelle told Ivy about Topher. Maybe
>>>> that
>>>> suggests a reveal to come about Topher. Or maybe it's just chopped up
>>>> story
>>>> telling in the final rush. I have no idea.
>>>
>>> replacement. On the face of it, and given Topher's rather recent
>>> friendliness, that would seem enough to make Ivy shy of him for a
>>> minute. I suspect that's not all, though: my first thought was that
>>> Adelle had somehow arranged for Ivy to be imprinted, though I suspect
>>> that's unlikely at this point.
>>
>>Her reaction isn't "shy for a minute." It's "stay away from me, I don't
>>want anything to do with you" for a minute. That suggests something like
>>hearing about Topher's involvement in murder, or perhaps hearing that
>>Adelle
>>and/or Rossum has tagged him as someone to potentially "retire," or
>>something along one of those lines. . . except that then it appears to be
>>completely dropped the next time they're on screen together. Maybe
>>they'll
>>explain it better, but jsut for the purposes of this episode, it feels
>>badly
>>out of place.
>
> It had occurred to me awhile ago that Ivy is the only recurring LA
> Dollhouse person who we don't have definite proof on whether she is or
> isn't a doll. Is that still true?
Didn't Ivy survive the remote disrupter Topher activated?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:LOSdnaeEHv44T7LW...@supernews.com...
> "Jillun" <jills...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> On Dec 21, 4:14 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>
>> Clearly Boyd is Clyde 2.0!
>
> I'm voting for Ivy to be Clyde's friend - the Rossum mastermind behind it
> all.
It wouldn't be the first time she was close to a young lab geek only to be a
secret mole, eh, Agent Gibbs?
-- Ken from Chicago
Horace LaBadie
If you mean the test that he ran on Kilo in "Public Eye," Ivy wasn't
shown to be anywhere within the 10 foot -- make that 50 foot, radius of
the disruptor's effect. She has been conveniently absent during those
episodes when something might tell us that she is or is not a Doll.
DerisannJain
I agreed with you on the first glance but...
In Season 1 episode 1, the episode that showed why Caroline was
'caught' and 'offered' the chance to become a Doll--suggested that
there were serious experiments with human fetuses. That would be
beyond the scope of the Rossum's purview as far as we've seen so far.
BUT, what if Clyde wanted a daughter, not just genetically, but
mentally too? Another 'positive' effect of mental manipulation -- >
parents would never be confused again by children that were just too
different from them. And that actually sounds more far-fetched
written out than it did in my head...
= )
Arbitrar Of Quality
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NOWdna_c7OLy0KrW...@giganews.com...
The show you're describing might well have worked, but it's not the show
they wanted to make.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:7ee4e56a-ae0a-449d...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> In Season 1 episode 1, the episode that showed why Caroline was
> 'caught' and 'offered' the chance to become a Doll--suggested that
> there were serious experiments with human fetuses. That would be
> beyond the scope of the Rossum's purview as far as we've seen so far.
> BUT, what if Clyde wanted a daughter, not just genetically, but
> mentally too? Another 'positive' effect of mental manipulation -- >
> parents would never be confused again by children that were just too
> different from them. And that actually sounds more far-fetched
> written out than it did in my head...
>
> = )
That was episode 7 last season actually - "Echoes". But you're right about
the human fetus reference, which I had forgotten about.
I surely don't know if that actually means anything, but I'm not going to
discount the possibility of a connection. As I think about it more, it's
actually one of those details that seems to demand some kind of explanation.
Why include something like that in the episode if it doesn't mean something?
If this does further point to Clyde (or Clyde's friend) and Rossum mucking
with Caroline since she was a baby, then your suggested rationale sounds as
good as any to me, though I don't think it must specifically be the answer.
OBS
Ken from Chicago
I think they could have snuck they wanted to make in the back door much as
LOST snuck in the SF show it ended up being--while still making the show far
more accessible to audiences. NUMBERS started out being a, ahem, by the
numbers, clone of CSI only using physics and math, but over time it's gone
pretty far afield in considering physics, philosophy, religion, etc. The cop
drama is just the frame for telling all kinds of stories.
-- Ken from Chicago (who still thinks FIREFLY: POSSE woulda worked too)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.firefly/msg/79711b00b8319e38?hl=en
George W Harris
wrote:
>
>Quoth "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>:
>>
>> We don't know about all the handlers and staff - some of whom do repeat.
>> But it seems unlikely that the show will draw from that group. We didn't
>> use to know about Ballard, but he's a doll now, so now we know he didn't
>> used to be, but who cares anymore.
>
>Hmmm. *Do* we know he wasn't a Doll before? AFAIR Topher only saw his
>brain scans after he was braindead, which could well kill the 'Active
>architecture', or at least hide it.
Catching up on newsgroups post-holiday. Ballard
set off Topher's disruptor, which didn't bring him down. So,
pre-braindeath, definite non-Doll.
>
>Ben
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'