Diuretics
Julie Bove
swollen feet and legs and being put on a prescription diuretic. Now I can't
remember where I was living when this happened or which Dr. put me on it. I
do remember my CA GP telling me to take an OTC one made of dandelion and it
not helping much. So perhaps I was put on the diuretic in NY. At any rate,
it really helped make the swelling go down and the compression hose made the
swelling go down further. No cause was every found for the swelling.
Then not too many months ago, my feet and legs began swelling badly again
and my Endo. here raised the amount of diuretic I was taking, and also
changed the type of so he said. I was taking HCTZ and I think this is what
he prescribed in a stronger dose but just a different name. At least that's
what it looked like to a nurse friend I sometimes talk to online who also
has diabetes. She questioned the use of the diuretic, telling me it
shouldn't be used by diabetics. I remember looking it up and it did say
that you needed to tell your Dr. if you had diabetes, but it didn't say why.
Just says I might need additional testing.
So recently when my urine showed protein in it, the Endo. increased my dose
of ACE inhibitor. This caused my BP to plunge, but I was also suffering
from higher BG, some hypos and a pulse around high 90's to low 100's
resting. I could not exercise because I was feeling so unwell.
Endo. stopped the diuretic telling me that he didn't want me on it to begin
with. "What about the swelling?", I asked. "Call me if you start to
swell", he said. I did. Still waiting to hear back. *sigh*
But my question is... Does anyone know why diabetics should not take
diuretics? My dad said they mentioned it in his diabetes classes saying
something about them pulling the water from the cells thereby not allowing
the insulin to get in. I have tried looking it up and can't find any info.
on that. But it does say those taking diuretics are at an increased risk of
getting diabetes.
And I guess my other question is... Does anyone know of anything I can
do/take for the swelling aside from diuretics? I stayed in bed yesterday
until dinner time with my feet elevated above my heart. This helped a wee
bit but of course as soon as I got up, the swelling started. And it caused
other problems. Like my not being able to sleep last night. My not eating
lunch or drinking liquids throughout the day because I kept nodding off.
I have to wear the compression hose due to the bad veins in my legs. With
the hose off, my legs swell like watermelons and I am totally disabled
because the swelling in my feet makes them so puffy and splooshy that I
can't stand flat on them, let alone walk. I don't want to have to go back
to crawling and scooting and not being able to drive a car. The swelling
also makes the neuropathy much worse, perhaps by compressing the nerves.
Taking the stockings off is not an option. But right now they are cutting
into my legs very badly. So badly they get imbedded in places and they are
hard to remove. I fear my skin might start to ulcer again and I don't want
that.
I do have some OTC diuretic that I bought. It is different than what I took
in the past and it does seem to help. I am tempted to take it but perhaps I
should not. I was taking it occasionally before he upped my dose of HCTZ
just because I was so miserable. I sure hope he calls me on Monday! And I
still haven't heard back on my labs.
--
See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
Nicky
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:TBKTg.2638$3T2.1853@trnddc06...
> I do have some OTC diuretic that I bought. It is different than what I
> took
> in the past and it does seem to help. I am tempted to take it but perhaps
> I
> should not. I was taking it occasionally before he upped my dose of HCTZ
> just because I was so miserable. I sure hope he calls me on Monday! And
> I
> still haven't heard back on my labs.
Oh, Julie - no help, but lots of sympathy!
This page lists foods with a mild diuretic effect - can you eat these / do
they work for you? http://www.webterrace.com/fat/diur.htm
I hope that endo gets his act together soon!
Nicky.
--
A1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
HCTZ along with other thiazide diuretics worsens insulin resistance.
For this reason, it is contraindicated in folks with type-2 diabetes
(and metabolic syndrome).
Loop diuretics like furosemide would be the alternative.
The visceral adipose tissue (VAT) causing your insulin resistance is
also the cause of the systemic vascular inflammation that leads to
atherosclerosis in arteries and venous insufficiency (with
varicosities) in veins. The latter is the most likely explanation for
your problems with swelling and varicose veins in your legs provided
there is no right heart failure.
May GOD continue to heal your heart by curing your diabetes, dear
neighbor Julie whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a77da2d26da0ab97?
Ben
http://www.stanfordhospital.com/clinicsmedServices/clinics/complementaryMedi
cine/scimMedicalQigong
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:TBKTg.2638$3T2.1853@trnddc06...
Ben
http://www.kennethcohen.com/qigong/research.html
http://www.stanfordhospital.com/clinicsmedServices/clinics/complementaryMedi
cine/scimMedicalQigong
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:TBKTg.2638$3T2.1853@trnddc06...
Chris Malcolm
> Some of you who have been here for a while may remember my saga of the
> swollen feet and legs and being put on a prescription diuretic. Now I can't
> remember where I was living when this happened or which Dr. put me on it. I
> do remember my CA GP telling me to take an OTC one made of dandelion and it
> not helping much. So perhaps I was put on the diuretic in NY. At any rate,
> it really helped make the swelling go down and the compression hose made the
> swelling go down further. No cause was every found for the swelling.
The unknown cause seems to me to be a key factor. It can be hard to
fix something when you don't know why it's gone wrong.
> But my question is... Does anyone know why diabetics should not take
> diuretics? My dad said they mentioned it in his diabetes classes saying
> something about them pulling the water from the cells thereby not allowing
> the insulin to get in. I have tried looking it up and can't find any info.
> on that. But it does say those taking diuretics are at an increased risk of
> getting diabetes.
And if diabetic, of worsening BG control.
> And I guess my other question is... Does anyone know of anything I can
> do/take for the swelling aside from diuretics? I stayed in bed yesterday
> until dinner time with my feet elevated above my heart. This helped a wee
> bit but of course as soon as I got up, the swelling started. And it caused
> other problems. Like my not being able to sleep last night. My not eating
> lunch or drinking liquids throughout the day because I kept nodding off.
> I have to wear the compression hose due to the bad veins in my legs. With
> the hose off, my legs swell like watermelons and I am totally disabled
> because the swelling in my feet makes them so puffy and splooshy that I
> can't stand flat on them, let alone walk. I don't want to have to go back
> to crawling and scooting and not being able to drive a car. The swelling
> also makes the neuropathy much worse, perhaps by compressing the nerves.
> Taking the stockings off is not an option. But right now they are cutting
> into my legs very badly. So badly they get imbedded in places and they are
> hard to remove. I fear my skin might start to ulcer again and I don't want
> that.
> I do have some OTC diuretic that I bought. It is different than what I took
> in the past and it does seem to help. I am tempted to take it but perhaps I
> should not. I was taking it occasionally before he upped my dose of HCTZ
> just because I was so miserable. I sure hope he calls me on Monday! And I
> still haven't heard back on my labs.
Of course it's at your own risk, and I'm no doctor, but if diuretics
have been prescribed before and have helped, and the problem with
diabetics seems to be possible temporary worsened BG control, why not
give it a try and tell your doc what happened? Whatever happens might
provide some useful extra info to the doc.
There's lots of complicated interactions going on between your various
problems and remedies. It wouldn't be surprising if sometimes your
doctors fail to see the whole picture. You could help them by keeping
a log of all the meds you take, dosages, possible side effects,
suspicions you find on the web, etc.. In time that will become a very
useful history, and it may help you to ask that simple naive question
which one day will make your doctor strike his forehead have one of
those light-bulb moments.
Wish I could be more help.
Forgive me if I've forgotten earlier explanations you've given, but
when did your edema start? When did it get a lot worse? Associated in
time with other conditions or drugs?
--
Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
oldal4865
Julie Bove wrote in message ...
>Some of you who have been here for a while may remember my saga of the
>. . .
>Then not too many months ago, my feet and legs began swelling badly again
>and my Endo. here raised the amount of diuretic I was taking, and also
>changed the type of so he said. I was taking HCTZ and I think this is what
>he prescribed in a stronger dose but just a different name. At least
that's
>what it looked like to a nurse friend I sometimes talk to online who also
>has diabetes. She questioned the use of the diuretic, telling me it
. . .>
>But my question is... Does anyone know why diabetics should not take
>diuretics? My dad said they mentioned it in his diabetes classes saying
>something about them pulling the water from the cells thereby not allowing
>the insulin to get in. I have tried looking it up and can't find any info.
>on that. But it does say those taking diuretics are at an increased risk
of
>getting diabetes.
>
My memory of sites I have visited:
Diabetics should seek ACE and/or ARB as the "first" med to control blood
pressure. The docs are moving away from using diuretics as the "only"
anti-b.p. med a diabetic takes.
However, when used in conjunction with an ACE or ARB, they are fine.
Also, you have a slightly different problem here. You have high blood
pressure "and" you are exhibiting excessive fluid retention. Excessive
fluid retention brings up the danger of congestive heart failure.
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jun2005/nhlbi-27.htm
". . . .The ALLHAT blood pressure study was a randomized, double-blind trial
involving 42,418 participants with high blood pressure, ages 55 and older.
Of those, 31,512 participants were randomly assigned to a diuretic
(chlorthalidone); a calcium channel blocker (amlodipine); an angiotensin
converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor (lisinopril). 13,101 had diabetes, 1,399
had elevated fasting glucose and 17,012 had normal glucose levels.
Compared with the ACE inhibitor and the calcium channel blocker, the
diuretic was:
More protective against congestive heart failure in patients both with and
without diabetes (by about 1/6 compared with the ACE-inhibitor, and by about
1/3 compared with the calcium channel blocker).
More effective in lowering systolic blood pressure — the measure of blood
pressure when the heart beats — among those with and without diabetes.
At least equally protective against fatal coronary heart disease or
non-fatal heart attacks in people with diabetes, those with elevated fasting
glucose, and non-diabetics.
Equally protective against death from all causes, end-stage kidney disease,
or cancer in people with diabetes, those with elevated fasting glucose, and
non-diabetics.
In Black study participants, more protective against stroke in people with
and without diabetes (compared with the ACE-inhibitor). . . ."
However, there is some annoyance in the medical community over the way the
ALLHAT data were evaluated. Our Dr. Biggs had some cutting remarks about
it. In fact, some of the doctors who participated went public with
complaints, e.g.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/451044?mpid=11299
". . . ."Diuretics are a necessary treatment in many patients," said Dr.
Weber, who told Reuters Health that 70% of his patients are on a diuretic,
but as part of a multidrug regimen. "They should not be the foundation for
antihypertensive therapy," he said. . . ."
IOW, use diuretics to handle fluid retention problems, use other meds to
attack raw b.p. problems.
Regards
Old Al
Evelyn Ruut
I think they don't like diabetics to take diuretics because it works the
kidneys a little harder, and in the case of people with diabetes, often
their kidneys are stressed out enough as it is. Too much stress on the
kidneys and you end up reducing their ability to flush your system out.
If you want to reduce the swelling, you should drink extra water to flush
out the sodium and other minerals in your body. Absolutely reduce any
sodium in your diet. Not just the table salt, but high sodium foods. If I
eat Chinese food my feet puff right up the next day.
Drinking less fluids may actually cause more fluid retention, so drink more,
allowing the extra water to flush out the sodium. I have a similar
situation, and when I use salt I tend to retain fluid. If I don't drink
enough water, my feet swell up for certain. Try it and see.
I buy a special kind of drinking water, which is reverse osmosis purified.
It has less minerals in it than bottled spring water or tap water. It is
just another little help in preventing swelling. If you can't find it, try
distilled, though in every supermarket I see the purified water with a
different color label on it, so it is reasonably easy to find. That
particular kind of water makes a big difference for me. Since my husband
gets kidney stones, it helps us both for different reasons, so it is a
necessity around here.
Compression stockings made me worse. Some people find they help, but not
me.
Actos tends to increase swelling, by the way, and I am on it. I won't give
it up since it controls my bg's so well, and I can't take metformin at all.
Keeping my bg's under control, drinking at least 3 good size glass fulls of
water every day (besides other liquids) and not being on my feet too much,
all help keep my kidneys working well to prevent it from being a problem.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:TBKTg.2638$3T2.1853@trnddc06...
Cheri
I was pregnant, but I sure sympathize with you Julie, it has to be
miserable. I hope you find an answer soon.
--
Cheri
Nicky wrote in message <4o9etvF...@individual.net>...
Will, T2
<mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>I think they don't like diabetics to take diuretics because it works the
>kidneys a little harder, and in the case of people with diabetes, often
>their kidneys are stressed out enough as it is. Too much stress on the
>kidneys and you end up reducing their ability to flush your system out.
Hi Evelyn,
It has been my experience that they can deplete your system of
potassiuim, magnesium, and electrolytes generally... Also, my reading
would tend to support that.
Hope you are having a great weekend.
Will, T2
Evelyn Ruut
"Will, T2" <wmm...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:47svh21dm4qt76jg4...@4ax.com...
Thanks Will.... yes I am :-)
And same to you too!
GrandpaChuck
Without even thinking about it, I took it along with my usual morning
pills about an hour before we left for our 19 hour drive to western
Colorado.
You guessed is. I had to stop at just about every single rest stop on
I-80, I-76, and I-70.
Needless to say, I did not take it on the morning that we headed home.
What a difference! I only had to stop one time when we weren't
stopping for gas anyway.
Oh, well. Live and learn.
--
Grandpa Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~
Americans killed in Iraq as of September 30, 2006 is 2713. United Kingdom = 118 Other = 117.
Over 100 Iraqi civilians are killed every day. Most by so-called insurgents.
More than 19,910 Americans wounded.
W. Baker
: I have to wear the compression hose due to the bad veins in my legs. With
: the hose off, my legs swell like watermelons and I am totally disabled
: because the swelling in my feet makes them so puffy and splooshy that I
: can't stand flat on them, let alone walk. I don't want to have to go back
: to crawling and scooting and not being able to drive a car. The swelling
: also makes the neuropathy much worse, perhaps by compressing the nerves.
: Taking the stockings off is not an option. But right now they are cutting
: into my legs very badly. So badly they get imbedded in places and they are
: hard to remove. I fear my skin might start to ulcer again and I don't want
: that.
Julie,
If I recal correctly, yu use knee-high stockings. I find that they can
cut into eh leg rather nastily even without the excess swelling. Could
you try the thigh-high compression hose, some of which come with a special
top tht needs fo garters, but stay up themselves. I find they cut into
the leg far less, in fact, they usually don't cut in at all.
They are availabl ein several degrees of compression through catalogs or
through the net. I have no URL's jus ta catalog name-Footsaver.
just a thought that might help.
Wendy
ironj...@aol.com
J Card Fail. 2005 May;11(4):247-52. Related Articles, Links
Bloodletting as a cure for dropsy: heart failure down the ages.
Ventura HO, Mehra MR.
Cardiomyopathy and Heart Transplantation Center, Ochsner Clinic
Foundation, 1514 Jefferson Highway, New Orleans, LA 70121, USA.
BACKGROUND: Dropsy was a term used to describe generalized swelling and
was synonymous with heart failure. Its treatment options were scanty
and were aimed to cause "emptying of the system" or to relieve fluid
retention. These remedies were rudimentary, erratic in action, and
associated with inconvenient side effects. METHODS AND RESULTS:
Bloodletting, either by venesection or by leeches, was a popular way to
alleviate symptoms from dropsy. Although bloodletting, purgatives,
cauterization, and Southey tubes were drastic, their use demonstrated
that physicians were not powerless to help people with severe heart
failure. Several centuries of intensive investigations in different
areas of heart failure ended with the development of new therapeutic
strategies that made bloodletting obsolete. CONCLUSION: In an era when
adequate treatment of heart failure has become a reality, it is
appropriate to acknowledge those who paved the way to such great
progress.
PMID: 15880332 [PubMed - in process]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Julie Bove
"Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote in message
news:RIydnVU75qf7SYLY...@inreach.com...
> Me too. I've never had a problem with swollen feet or legs, except when
> I was pregnant, but I sure sympathize with you Julie, it has to be
> miserable. I hope you find an answer soon.
That's when my problem started. It just never went away.
Julie Bove
"Nicky" <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:4o9etvF...@individual.net...
>
> "Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:TBKTg.2638$3T2.1853@trnddc06...
> > I do have some OTC diuretic that I bought. It is different than what I
> > took
> > in the past and it does seem to help. I am tempted to take it but
perhaps
> > I
> > should not. I was taking it occasionally before he upped my dose of
HCTZ
> > just because I was so miserable. I sure hope he calls me on Monday!
And
> > I
> > still haven't heard back on my labs.
>
> Oh, Julie - no help, but lots of sympathy!
>
> This page lists foods with a mild diuretic effect - can you eat these / do
> they work for you? http://www.webterrace.com/fat/diur.htm
>
> I hope that endo gets his act together soon!
I do eat as much as I can already of some of those things. The others I
either don't like at all or am avoiding because of the thyroid.
Thanks!
Julie Bove
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:1159695228.6...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> HCTZ along with other thiazide diuretics worsens insulin resistance.
>
> For this reason, it is contraindicated in folks with type-2 diabetes
> (and metabolic syndrome).
>
> Loop diuretics like furosemide would be the alternative.
>
> The visceral adipose tissue (VAT) causing your insulin resistance is
> also the cause of the systemic vascular inflammation that leads to
> atherosclerosis in arteries and venous insufficiency (with
> varicosities) in veins. The latter is the most likely explanation for
> your problems with swelling and varicose veins in your legs provided
> there is no right heart failure.
Only have two varicose veins and I don't think they are a problem. Thanks!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew wrote:
>
> > HCTZ along with other thiazide diuretics worsens insulin resistance.
> >
> > For this reason, it is contraindicated in folks with type-2 diabetes
> > (and metabolic syndrome).
> >
> > Loop diuretics like furosemide would be the alternative.
> >
> > The visceral adipose tissue (VAT) causing your insulin resistance is
> > also the cause of the systemic vascular inflammation that leads to
> > atherosclerosis in arteries and venous insufficiency (with
> > varicosities) in veins. The latter is the most likely explanation for
> > your problems with swelling and varicose veins in your legs provided
> > there is no right heart failure.
>
> Only have two varicose veins and I don't think they are a problem.
If your doctor is certain that the swelling is not due to venous
insufficiency, then s/he will have to consider the possibility of heart
failure and refer you to consult with a cardiologist.
> Thanks!
You are welcome. All thanks and praises belong to GOD, Whom I love
with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength.
May GOD continue to heal your heart by curing your diabetes, dear
neighbor Julie whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a77da2d26da0ab97?
> --
Julie Bove
"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:4o9r55F...@individual.net...
> The unknown cause seems to me to be a key factor. It can be hard to
> fix something when you don't know why it's gone wrong.
And in my searching, it appears that most of the time, no cause is found for
the swelling. It did say that women are more prone to it than men.
> Of course it's at your own risk, and I'm no doctor, but if diuretics
> have been prescribed before and have helped, and the problem with
> diabetics seems to be possible temporary worsened BG control, why not
> give it a try and tell your doc what happened? Whatever happens might
> provide some useful extra info to the doc.
But the problem is, I developed protein in my urine so the Dr. upped my
Lisinopril to take care of that. The Lisinopril combined with the
diurectic was making my BP plunge and it was making me feel faint and dizzy.
Also very sleepy and fuzzy brained. I don't want to go through that again
either. Also, I now know there is a connection between the diurectic and a
high pulse. Although I don't know why. My mom said diuretcis do this to
her too and her Dr. surmised it was some sort of allergy.
>
> There's lots of complicated interactions going on between your various
> problems and remedies. It wouldn't be surprising if sometimes your
> doctors fail to see the whole picture. You could help them by keeping
> a log of all the meds you take, dosages, possible side effects,
> suspicions you find on the web, etc.. In time that will become a very
> useful history, and it may help you to ask that simple naive question
> which one day will make your doctor strike his forehead have one of
> those light-bulb moments.
I just wish I could find one Dr. who would address everything. They won't.
I keep being sent to specialists and each one will either find nothing wrong
or will find something wrong in their specialty. They then tell me this is
my only problem and to listen to them, not the other Drs. So it gets to the
point where I don't know who to believe! The Endo. is aware that there
appears to be a gallbladder problem yet he won't order the tests. He is
leaving my GP to do this. My GP will just pawn me off on someone else,
perhaps an internist, dunno. He seems to only want to do routine things and
ordering tests.
>
> Wish I could be more help.
>
> Forgive me if I've forgotten earlier explanations you've given, but
> when did your edema start? When did it get a lot worse? Associated in
> time with other conditions or drugs?
It started at the end of my pregnancy. About the last month or two. Drs.
kept telling me it would go away within a week after having the baby. It
didn't. It eventually lessened a wee bit. My legs were like the fattest
watermelons you'd ever seen! I also gained some weight after having the
baby. I'd had a high risk pregnancy with GD and possible pre-eclampsia
towards the end...last two days.
Then because my husband is in the military, we had to move as soon as I was
able after the baby. I'd started losing weight during the pregnancy due to
a roller coaster thyroid. In the last two weeks, I gained a total of 12
pounds. That stayed with me and then some. I was breastfeeding. Instead
of losing like I should be, I was gaining. I noticed that my legs were
getting bigger but I assumed for some strange reason I was getting fatter.
Didn't realize it was in fact swelling until it began to subside.
I could write a book on what happened since. Was living in CA. Seeing all
sorts of incompetent Drs. Then finally moved to NY where it was discovered
I was being given waaaaay too much thyroid meds. This causing the "heart"
problem my Endo. said had cropped up. My "psoraisis" was really stasis
dermatitis. In other words, skin broken down from blood leaking from my
veins in my legs. I was to wear compression hose and keep my legs elevated
as much as possible.
Moved here to WA and it was discovered that I was STILL being overdosed on
thyroid meds. I knew this, but the Dr. refused to take me off the meds
claiming I'd be low thyroid if he did. Well... I've now proven that wrong.
There may be some details I left out here. I've just seen so many Drs.,
it's frustrating. Was also told I had psoriatic arthritis. It seems I do
actually have psoriasis, but it's very mild and contained to my knees and
elbows. If I soak in salt and stay out of the sun, it doesn't seem to
bother me.
Julie Bove
"oldal4865" <olda...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4o9tcrF...@individual.net...
> My memory of sites I have visited:
>
> Diabetics should seek ACE and/or ARB as the "first" med to control blood
> pressure. The docs are moving away from using diuretics as the "only"
> anti-b.p. med a diabetic takes.
>
> However, when used in conjunction with an ACE or ARB, they are fine.
>
> Also, you have a slightly different problem here. You have high blood
> pressure "and" you are exhibiting excessive fluid retention. Excessive
> fluid retention brings up the danger of congestive heart failure.
I had thougt of that. I had an EKG, but not sure this is the right test to
check for it. I have an elderly diabetic friend who did go through
congestive heart failure after being put on either Actos or Avandia, I
forget which. And I know a woman of about my age (not diabetic, net yet,
but I suspect she will have it) who just went through this. What bothers me
is I have had so many symptoms that she had just prior.
>
> http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jun2005/nhlbi-27.htm
>
>
> ". . . .The ALLHAT blood pressure study was a randomized, double-blind
trial
> involving 42,418 participants with high blood pressure, ages 55 and older.
> Of those, 31,512 participants were randomly assigned to a diuretic
> (chlorthalidone); a calcium channel blocker (amlodipine); an angiotensin
> converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor (lisinopril). 13,101 had diabetes, 1,399
> had elevated fasting glucose and 17,012 had normal glucose levels.
>
> Compared with the ACE inhibitor and the calcium channel blocker, the
> diuretic was:
>
> More protective against congestive heart failure in patients both with and
> without diabetes (by about 1/6 compared with the ACE-inhibitor, and by
about
> 1/3 compared with the calcium channel blocker).
>
>
> More effective in lowering systolic blood pressure - the measure of blood
> pressure when the heart beats - among those with and without diabetes.
Hmmm... My systolic number has been lowish. About 107 at the highest.
Diastolic is usually around 70-80.
Yes, I have read the ALLHAT stuff and I do sort of remember what Dr. Biggs
said. In my case, the diuretics were not being used for BP. Just for
swelling. But apparently combined with this high a dose of Lisinopril is
enough to cause my BP to plunge enough to make me non-functional and feel
ill. And then there's the high pulse. Still don't know why it did that.
Thanks!
Julie Bove
"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gNPTg.6089$q.4...@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
> Hi Julie, pardon the top post.
>
> I think they don't like diabetics to take diuretics because it works the
> kidneys a little harder, and in the case of people with diabetes, often
> their kidneys are stressed out enough as it is. Too much stress on the
> kidneys and you end up reducing their ability to flush your system out.
Hmmm...
>
> If you want to reduce the swelling, you should drink extra water to flush
> out the sodium and other minerals in your body. Absolutely reduce any
> sodium in your diet. Not just the table salt, but high sodium foods. If
I
> eat Chinese food my feet puff right up the next day.
>
> Drinking less fluids may actually cause more fluid retention, so drink
more,
> allowing the extra water to flush out the sodium. I have a similar
> situation, and when I use salt I tend to retain fluid. If I don't drink
> enough water, my feet swell up for certain. Try it and see.
I drink a ton of water. I do also drink diet soda, but that's about the
only source of sodium in my diet aside from celery. I need the celery to
help with my knees. Plus I really like it. Due to the food allergies, I
eat very little in the way of processed foods. I am trying to convert to a
near total raw, vegan diet. I do use a bit of sea salt in some things, but
mostly I just cut up the vegetables and eat them. And it isn't just my feet
that are swelling. It's the legs too and now it seems to be around my
middle. Pants were very tight by last night. I know it wasn't a case of
overeating. I ate very little dinner. For some reason, everything on the
table tasted odd. Either tasted burnt (gluten free bread sticks) to me or
like someone poured a ton of sugar on it (soup and raw veggies). So I only
ate a few bites.
>
> I buy a special kind of drinking water, which is reverse osmosis purified.
> It has less minerals in it than bottled spring water or tap water. It
is
> just another little help in preventing swelling. If you can't find it,
try
> distilled, though in every supermarket I see the purified water with a
> different color label on it, so it is reasonably easy to find. That
> particular kind of water makes a big difference for me. Since my husband
> gets kidney stones, it helps us both for different reasons, so it is a
> necessity around here.
I dislike purified water. Has no taste to it whatever. I usually drink
Hawaii water or Arrowhead. I will check the sodium content in it though.
And there is some reason why we shouldn't drink distilled water, although I
can't remember why now.
>
> Compression stockings made me worse. Some people find they help, but not
> me.
I am totally crippled without them. The veins in my lower legs leak.
Without the stockings, they will leak, and my tissue will break down and
ulcer. Really don't want to go through that again. They are a pain, but a
necessary one. At least they make me somewhat functional. And I'd rather
be that than a person who has to rely on crawling or scooting to get from
here to there.
>
> Actos tends to increase swelling, by the way, and I am on it. I won't
give
> it up since it controls my bg's so well, and I can't take metformin at
all.
I refused to take Actos for that reason. I did ask my current Endo. and he
refused to put me on it. This was a relief because I fought my old Endo.
tooth and nail over the issue. He insisted I needed it.
>
> Keeping my bg's under control, drinking at least 3 good size glass fulls
of
> water every day (besides other liquids) and not being on my feet too much,
> all help keep my kidneys working well to prevent it from being a problem.
Well, I don't know that my kidneys are fine. Still waiting for the labs on
that. I do drink about 48 oz. of water (minimum) every day in addition to
other liquids. Exception being Friday when I stayed in bed to lessen the
swelling. I then fell asleep and wasn't drinking anything at all.
Julie Bove
"Will, T2" <wmm...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:47svh21dm4qt76jg4...@4ax.com...
> Hi Evelyn,
>
> It has been my experience that they can deplete your system of
> potassiuim, magnesium, and electrolytes generally... Also, my reading
> would tend to support that.
>
> Hope you are having a great weekend.
The kind I was on was a potassium sparing one since low potassium was a
problem when I was first diagnosed with diabetes.
Julie Bove
"GrandpaChuck" <Grandp...@B4ME.org> wrote in message
news:f8vvh2tjntshqlc8h...@4ax.com...
> Just a word of caution. I take a prescription diuretic ever morning.
> Without even thinking about it, I took it along with my usual morning
> pills about an hour before we left for our 19 hour drive to western
> Colorado.
>
> You guessed is. I had to stop at just about every single rest stop on
> I-80, I-76, and I-70.
>
> Needless to say, I did not take it on the morning that we headed home.
> What a difference! I only had to stop one time when we weren't
> stopping for gas anyway.
>
> Oh, well. Live and learn.
I normally have to go every hour or two. Oddly I have to go more when we
are out than when I'm at home. I think when in the car I drink more liquids
out of boredom. And when I take Angela to dance class I usually stop at the
health food store for a 32 oz. bottle of Hawaii water that I usually suck
down in an hour. For those days when she has two back to back classes, I
might drink two of these. I'm not actually thirsty enough to drink all that
in that short amount of time. But I have a tendency to talk a lot so I find
if I keep the bottle in my mouth, I talk less. Heh!
Julie Bove
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:efp1ov$rrq$4...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Julie,
>
> If I recal correctly, yu use knee-high stockings. I find that they can
> cut into eh leg rather nastily even without the excess swelling. Could
> you try the thigh-high compression hose, some of which come with a special
> top tht needs fo garters, but stay up themselves. I find they cut into
> the leg far less, in fact, they usually don't cut in at all.
>
> They are availabl ein several degrees of compression through catalogs or
> through the net. I have no URL's jus ta catalog name-Footsaver.
>
> just a thought that might help.
I had thought about that. Someone else recommended them to me years ago.
But first, I can't really afford them. And second, I remember how horrible
the regular thigh high stocks were. They'd cut into my thighs and make me
all sweaty. Since the swelling now extends up into my thighs and beyond, I
don't think that would help.
I've tried the stockings they sell at Footsaver and they went straight into
the trash after one use. I don't find them to have even compression. I
normally wear Ames Walker with no problems. I like them so much I recommend
them to people who usually wear Jobst. Jobst was what the Dr. told me to
wear but I hated them. Not only their high price, but they too cut into my
legs at the top and they squeezed my feet very painfully, especially at the
toes. The Ames Walker have a bubble toe. I am currently wearing the
trouser socks because they're a little thicker than the sheer ones. I do
think the sheer ones fit a bit looser at the tops. Perhaps I will go back
to those. Ames Walker cost between $8-16 a pair for the compression I need
as opposed to $30 for Jobst.
Julie Bove
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:1159736481.4...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> If your doctor is certain that the swelling is not due to venous
> insufficiency, then s/he will have to consider the possibility of heart
> failure and refer you to consult with a cardiologist.
I do have venous insufficiency. But those are the deep veins. Not the ones
closer to the surface that would be called varicose. *sigh* Perhaps the
cardiologist will be the next step. Can't seem to get anyone to do this
though. Perhaps I will just have to call around and find one on my own.
Kev
Julie,
I too had a big problem with swelling in my legs and feet not long after I
was diagnosed with diabetes.
the swelling would go down a bit overnight, but the swelling in my feet was
massive, I couldn't even get
the largest size socks on, I had to slit my shoes and slippers down the
middle.
I sat down all day in an office and by the end of the day, the swelling had
gone up to and
past my knees, I could feel the resistance when bending my knee.
The skin on my feet stretched so much, you could see the fluid leaking out.
So after a while I was feeling a bit down, and on a visit to the clinic, one
of the consultants suggested
a stay in hospital. So I did this, got some rest with my feet up and they
gave me some blood
thinning drugs(warfarin I think), but after 4 days the swelling hadn't
really gone down that much,
the consultant discharged me, they said they didn't know what was causing it
and suggested to wear
support stockings. I couldn't believe what they said, a bloke wearing
stockings, you must be kidding.
So I went home feeling no better.
Then a few days later or maybe a week or two, the swelling went down, more
or less overnight, it
was great, almost like my feet had been punctured and gone flat.
Now I can't be certain what had caused the problem to go away, but the night
before I took a cocktail
of beechams powders, lemsips and cold tablets, as I had a bit of a cold,
probably just a coincidence.
But one thing I remember is that when the swelling had gone down, the
following morning at work,
I started sweating when I first got into the office. This was strange as I
always sweat when I first got into
work, and I still do now. But what I didn't realise at the time when I had
swollen legs and feet is that I had stopped
sweating in the morning, so whatever the problem was with the swelling, it
also stopped me from sweating
too. That was in 1998, and apart from some swelling in May 2003, which was
probably to do with heat exposure
and bad BG control, I've had no problems since.
All those years ago, I used to lie on the bed with my bum close to the wall
and my legs almost vertical, resting on
the wall, you could feel the fluid sinking down your legs, I also used some
tubigrip elasticated bandages when it
was really bad, but it's quite tight, so you have to be careful.
hope the swelling goes down soon
Kevin
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew wrote:
>
> > insufficiency, then s/he will have to consider the possibility of heart
> > failure and refer you to consult with a cardiologist.
>
> I do have venous insufficiency.
This does cause swelling without concomitant heart failure.
> But those are the deep veins.
Venous insufficiency would involve all the veins in the legs, both deep
and superficial.
> Not the ones
> closer to the surface that would be called varicose.
The deeper ones would be similarly in bad shape. Veins become
insufficient when they are weakened by inflammation.
> *sigh* Perhaps the
> cardiologist will be the next step.
Would be wise if heart failure is the suspected cause of your swelling
up.
> Can't seem to get anyone to do this
> though. Perhaps I will just have to call around and find one on my own.
Your primary doctor should be able to guide you to those whom s/he has
collaborated with in the past with favorable outcomes.
Julie Bove
"Kev" <k.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:AeWdne4hca_a1b3Y...@pipex.net...
Support stockings only have 8-15 compression and that isn't enough for me.
I was prescribed the 15-20 compression. I've tried some that are a bit
stronger simply because in the next strongest compression they come in a
cotton blend. I don't know why but in the weaker and stronger compressions
they come in those compressions. But not mine. The stronger compression
didn't seem to cause much problems but they were not very comfortable and
too thick to wear with the shoes I normally wear the thin hose with.
As I said, the stockings do help, but I seem to need something additional
because the stockings alone aren't enough.
GrandpaChuck
wrote:
I'll bite. What the heck is Hawaii water?
Alan S
<Grandp...@B4ME.org> wrote:
>I'll bite. What the heck is Hawaii water?
Is it similar to that water filtered by the trickle-down
from champagne glasses mentioned recently? But the glasses
have little umbrellas in them?
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Julie Bove
"GrandpaChuck" <Grandp...@B4ME.org> wrote in message
news:o1v0i257r5c0d83d4...@4ax.com...
Well, bust my bubble! I just looked it up. I thought it was spring water
but it is not. And now that I see that it is heated and such, I'm not even
sure it would count as "raw". But it sure does taste good!
http://www.hawaiiwater.com/hawaii_water/index.html
Kumar
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
"Physiological - chemical Data. - Calc-fluor. is found in the surface
of the bones and in the enamel of the teeth. It is also a constituent
of the elastic fibres and of epidermis. Elastic fibres are found in the
skin, in the connective tissue, and in the vascular walls.
A disturbance of the equilibrium of the molecules of Calc-fluor. Causes
a continued dilation, or chronically relaxed condition, of the
implicated fibres. If the elastic fibres of any portion of the vessels
of the connective tissue or of the lymphatic system have arrived at
such a condition of relaxation, the absorption of a solid exudation in
such a part cannot take place. In consequence, induration of the parts
sets in. When the elastic fibres of the blood vessels suffer a
disturbance of the molecules of Calc-fluor., such pathological
enlargements of blood vessels take place, which make their appearance
as hemorrhoidal tumors, varicose and enlarged veins and vascular
tumors, indurated glands, post - partum hemorrhage, uterine
displacements and weakening of abdominal walls.
Heart
Circulatory Organs. - Aneurysm at an early stage may be reduced or kept
in check by this remedy and Ferr-phos., provided that the iodide of
potash had not been taken. Dilatation, enlargement of the blood
vessels; being the chief remedy to restore the contractility of the
elastic fibres. Dilatation of the heart with palpitation. Chief remedy
for vascular tumors with dilated blood vessels. Varicose ulcerations of
the veins as the chief remedy for varicose or enlarged veins.
Enlargement, hypertrophy of the heart.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/homeopathy_advice/Remedies/TISSUE_SALTS/calc-f.html
"
Though not proven scientificaly, can it indicate something about
varicose veins/Venous insufficiency etc.?
Nicky
> that I had stopped
> sweating in the morning, so whatever the problem was with the swelling, it
> also stopped me from sweating
> too.
Did you notice this bit of his post, Julie - it was a bit hidden? Does it
apply to you?
Nicky.
--
A1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Only eating less gets rid of VAT, which is driving the vascular
inflammation that leads to venous insufficiency.
May GOD continue to heal your heart by curing your diabetes, dear
neighbor Kumar whom I love unconditionally.
Julie Bove
"Nicky" <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:4ocs45F...@individual.net...
>
> "Kev" <k.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:AeWdne4hca_a1b3Y...@pipex.net...
> > But what I didn't realise at the time when I had swollen legs and feet
is
> > that I had stopped
> > sweating in the morning, so whatever the problem was with the swelling,
it
> > also stopped me from sweating
> > too.
>
> Did you notice this bit of his post, Julie - it was a bit hidden? Does it
> apply to you?
Nope. Doesn't apply.
Nicky
> Nope. Doesn't apply.
: ( Any sign of life from the endo?
Kumar
The above is also indicated for reversing relaxed conditions due to
inflammatory responses or vasodilations and also somewhat to muscle's
tone, hardening of vessels etc.
Do veins relaxes and dilate? Do venous valves harden and leak?
Dennis R.
says...
>
Support stockings only have 8-15 compression and that isn't enough for
in a cotton blend. I don't know why but in the weaker and stronger
compressions they come in those compressions. But not mine. The
stronger compression didn't seem to cause much problems but they were
not very comfortable and too thick to wear with the shoes I normally
wear the thin hose with.
As I said, the stockings do help, but I seem to need something
additional because the stockings alone aren't enough.
>>
Julie: I am not sure why in your case the diuretic was cut off other
than your particular combination of side effects and meds. As you know,
I have had a kidney transplant and therefore still have kidney problems
by definition. I am on an ACE and calcium channel blocker for blood
pressure as well as two diuretics. Lasix (furosemide) is a standard
diuretic, and Aldactone (spironolactone) is a potassium sparing
diuretic. Obviously, my endo and nephrologists have no problem with me
taking them with metformin, acarbose, and glyburide.
I have use the medium knee high compression stockings (15 - 18) since
1993. I don't have a problem with the Jobst Samson's (Delilah's for
women). Polyester doesn't bother me. The lower compression ones were
useless and the higher ones were too strong. The only thing about them
was the need for handwashing with Zero or Woolite, so I finally switched
to a mini-load in the washer set on delicate cycle.
I still need to put my feet up in a recliner and then elevated in bed
every night. They are back to "normal" in the morning.
Until you hear from your endo again, I don't know what else you can do.
Dennis (Type 2, Kidney Transplant 1995)
W. Baker
: "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
: news:efp1ov$rrq$4...@reader1.panix.com...
If cost is a factor, there are some brands that are not crazy expensive ,
like the Jobsts. Footsaver carries it's own brand in a cheper adn more
expensive version, starting at soemthing like $19 a pair. They last much
longer than the reglar hose.
Can't give you advice on yoru other problems raised.
Wendy
Julie Bove
"Nicky" <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:4odg46F...@individual.net...
>
> "Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:pqfUg.10720$Zj3.761@trnddc03...
> > Nope. Doesn't apply.
>
> : ( Any sign of life from the endo?
Nope. And I'm really suffering. Stasis dermatitis has come back and I have
pitting edema. Even putting my legs up on the wedge pillow to elevate them
is causing painful pressure. He's on half day today. Doubt he will call
till tomorrow but I will try back again today anyway... *sigh* On a
brighter note, my dad was told by the dietician at the hospital that he *is*
the best Endo. in the area.
Julie Bove
"Dennis R." <ds_r...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f8bb60cd...@nntp.aioe.org...
> Julie: I am not sure why in your case the diuretic was cut off other
> than your particular combination of side effects and meds. As you know,
> I have had a kidney transplant and therefore still have kidney problems
> by definition. I am on an ACE and calcium channel blocker for blood
> pressure as well as two diuretics. Lasix (furosemide) is a standard
> diuretic, and Aldactone (spironolactone) is a potassium sparing
> diuretic. Obviously, my endo and nephrologists have no problem with me
> taking them with metformin, acarbose, and glyburide.
When there was protein in my urine, the Endo. upped my dose of Lisinopril.
This was causing very low BP, causing me to be exhausted, dizzy and to feel
faint at night. I also developed a weird high pulse. Now that I am off the
diuretic my BG has dropped to the normal range for the most part. Woke up
to 180 this morning but I feel this was due to the screwed up dinner last
night. Ate very late and very little. We'd gone to a restaurant and got
horribly slow service. For some reason they were very busy and that's
unusual for a Monday. With only one waitress and one cook they could not
keep up. I only ordered refried beans and a dinner salad. My daughter
ordered beans, rice and tortillas. We thought we'd get this stuff quickly
because it should have been precooked, but apparently not. So I wound up
eating more chips than I should have. Was also super thirsty and it took
over an hour to get any sort of drink. Daughter got a glass of water but I
was not so lucky. Anyway...
>
> I have use the medium knee high compression stockings (15 - 18) since
> 1993. I don't have a problem with the Jobst Samson's (Delilah's for
> women). Polyester doesn't bother me. The lower compression ones were
> useless and the higher ones were too strong. The only thing about them
> was the need for handwashing with Zero or Woolite, so I finally switched
> to a mini-load in the washer set on delicate cycle.
I use a special wash for compression hose. I always handwash with the
exception of the few times one stocking accidentally gets in the wash. Not a
problem to hand wash. I have an extra sink in the bathroom and a separate
shower stall where I can leave them to dry.
The Jobst killed my legs and feet. Crushed my feet and caused my toes to
overlap. As you can imagine this was painful to walk on and it caused a
skin problem where the skin rubbed off between the toes and required
treatment from the dermatologist. I ordered some more of the Ames Walker
sheers because they seem to cause pressure to a smaller area of my calves.
With them I have a ring around my leg about the width of a pencil lead as
opposed to an inch wide caved in area from the others. Ditto for the caved
in parts of my feet. The sheers seem to affect a much smaller area. I just
ordered one pair of Delilah because they are on sale at the Ames Walker site
but if you like them I fear they might not work for me.
>
> I still need to put my feet up in a recliner and then elevated in bed
> every night. They are back to "normal" in the morning.
I can't do the recliner. That puts painful pressure on the backs of my
legs. I am still using the wedge pillow and spending every minute I can in
bed but that is only helping a little. Even the pillow is causing painful
pressure now.
>
> Until you hear from your endo again, I don't know what else you can do.
If he doesn't call me today I will take an OTC water pill that I have. I
think... Got to do something!
Thanks!
Julie Bove
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:eftsqg$pom$2...@reader1.panix.com...
> If cost is a factor, there are some brands that are not crazy expensive ,
> like the Jobsts. Footsaver carries it's own brand in a cheper adn more
> expensive version, starting at soemthing like $19 a pair. They last much
> longer than the reglar hose.
>
> Can't give you advice on yoru other problems raised.
As I said... I tried the Footsaver brand and they went straight in the
trash. The ones I bought have unequal compression causing swelling in weird
spots on my legs.
Julie Bove
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:lPvUg.3355$1o.2262@trndny09...
>
>
>
> "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:eftsqg$pom$2...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> > If cost is a factor, there are some brands that are not crazy expensive
,
> > like the Jobsts. Footsaver carries it's own brand in a cheper adn more
> > expensive version, starting at soemthing like $19 a pair. They last
much
> > longer than the reglar hose.
> >
> > Can't give you advice on yoru other problems raised.
>
> As I said... I tried the Footsaver brand and they went straight in the
> trash. The ones I bought have unequal compression causing swelling in
weird
> spots on my legs.
Now that I think about it, it was the Footsmart brand I tried and not the
Footsaver. At any rate, I like the Ames Walker and will stick with those.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
They lose their elasticity.
> Do venous valves harden and leak?
They lose their elasticity.
Kumar
Dennis R
Actually, it turns out that I am using the Sigvaris line (Samson for
men, Delilah for women), not the Jobst. However, there is probably not a
lot of difference except for a few units of compression between the two.
I always use a small pillow behind the knees and elevate the feet on
pillows at bedtime, but the recliner does not bother my back, so that is
another advantage I have. My edema is not as bad as yours it seems. I
wish someone would tell you why they don't want YOU on the diuretics. It
is not like there are only one or two kinds - there are several
different ones.
Let us know how it ends up, as there are a lot of us in the same race as
you, if not the same boat.
Dennis (Type 2)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Wiser to lose the VAT which is the source of the inflammatory cytokines
that are driving the cascade leading to the systemic inflammation that
is damaging the veins along with everything else.
Kumar
How such systemic inflammation can be measured by blood tests? Will ESR
or CRP remain higher in people with IR/VAT?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
By determining insulin resistance.
> Will ESR
> or CRP remain higher in people with IR/VAT?
Not ESR. Elevated CRP is a **late** indicator of inflammation driven
by VAT.
May GOD continue to heal you heart by curing your diabetes, dear
Kumar
Why not ESR? Can't Glycosylation of hemoglobin raise ESR?
--
How K is linked to uremia? Is it excess of K(in cells or elsewhere)
which may increase BUN levels?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
It simply doesn't.
May GOD continue to heal your heart by curing your diabetes, dear