When will Doug Marman be publishing ...

[Henosis Sage]

When will Doug Marman be publishing his discussions, via email, with Harold Klemp
during 2011?

I know he had these discussions because he told me himself. I have no reason to
believe or suspect he could be lying about it.

Doug Marman said that "given Harold is a public figure" this legally overrides
any issues surrounding "privacy". Therefore, he said that at time in the future
he will be 'publishing' the content of those discussions.

Patti Simpson-Rivinus passed away earlier in 2011. Not very long after that
Marman published his "story" about Paul Twitchell asking Patti if she would
take over as the Living ECK Master to relieve him of the burden.

See:
http://spiritualdialogues.com/2011/07/a-post-script-parting-shot-for-patti-simpson-rivinus/

I believe that these discussions occurred between Marman and Klemp after this
"story" was published.

According to Marman, the discussions were about "when will Klemp be retiring
as the Living ECK master of ECKANKAR."

Isn't that interesting? Why would Marman be raising this issue with Klemp,
because it was Marman who instigated these discussions?

Can you imagine anyone else, emailing Harold Klemp, and asking, "Hey mate,
when you going to quit?"

Would you?

So where did all this come from? And why was it an issue post Patti Simpson passing away? Maybe that's only a co-incidence, but my inner guidance and
outer knowledge suggests otherwise.

Consider again the subject matter of Patti's story about being offered to
become the new LEM in 1971.

According to Marman, Klemp's response was that "they will need to take me out in a box" ... meaning he was never going to resign and would continue on until
he died.

At this point, Marman related to me that he then discussed a number of things
with Klemp including reminding him of what Klemp had said at the 1983 Eckankar
World Wide seminar to the assembled High Initiates Meeting.

There is a record of most of that meeting here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.eckankar/__qCBEHPPBQ/apPfU4vYRaEJ
and
1983-10-22 High Initiates Meeting Harold Klemp Speech Q&A at Seminar OCR
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPc2wzbHBBeC1pTFU/view?usp=sharing
and
1983-10-22 HK HI Meeting Missing Comments - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPMG5kQ3VXbHhFN0U/view?usp=sharing

Other background files here:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPM3haelZBZUY4MHc&usp=sharing

The key thing Doug honed in on, he told me, was this comment by Harold Klemp
at that HI Meeting:

QUOTING KLEMP:

When it's time for me to pass the Rod of ECK Power to the next person,
I have to do it. I know exactly what I have to do whether it takes 10
years or 20. And the longer it takes me to do it, so be it.

The Rod of ECK Power gets too hot to handle beyond the time of your
mission and you have to let it go. Darwin had to let it go or the Rod
of ECK Power will burn you to a crisp, that means your health will go
to destruction. He had to pass it, when my time comes I have to pass it.

I know when my time comes, and the mission to me, even though all this
is happening is slowing me down, it seems too modest and too small.

The temptation of that time is saying hey we finally got it rolling,
let's go and then I'd say hey, let's go ten times the amount that I
wanted felt I should have done and it plays with me constantly, but I
know when that time comes, I'm setting it in my mind every day, I get
out and it's going to be good for the teachings of ECK.

The other question is, you're stuck with the person who holds the Rod
of ECK Power. (laughter) (applause)

[END QUOTE]

So what Marman said to me (via email) was that he was raising wiht Klemp this
issue of "The Rod of ECK Power gets too hot to handle beyond the time of your
mission and you have to let it go."

It was my impression that Marman was saying/hinting to Klemp that it WAS TIME
TO GO - SO WHEN ARE YOU GOING?

Otherwise, Klemp you are going to likely suffer just as Darwin Gross had (or so
the mythology that Marman believes goes).

Here it may be helpful to also consider what Patti Simpson was saying to me
via email in February 2011.

Part of that is here in this email from her to me:
2011-02-11 Patti Simpson-Rivinus P.S. My Take on it All
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNy1YZ2F3VTRNTDA/view?usp=sharing

I draw your attention to this section:

QUOTE:
"I see no way for the master and the CEO to deal with people who have
obviously done their work and accomplished their goal. Most of them leave,
some get really upset and pick a fight and, sadly, throw out the baby with
the bath water. Unfortunately some who stay come to enjoy the power they
wield."

What striking about this, to me given other things she had said earlier, is
Patti's flippant reference to "the master and the CEO".

She does not use their names, nor even their proper "titles" in a respectful
manner. I was to discover that this was not a "one off" approach by Patti.
I would later conclude that Patti had little time or respect for Klemp or
Skelskey.

That is despite the Fact that she was instrumental in pressuring Klemp to
"get rid of Darwin or else" - in a letter to Klemp (on behalf of/cosigned)
by most of the 8th Initiates in JULY 1983.

Barely TWO weeks before Darwin Gross was unilaterally "dismissed" without
warning and without notice by the "Board of Trustees".

It was at this time that Klemp resumed the position of CEO/President of Eckankar
only to pass that on to Peter Skelsky within a year or two. Peter, as most will
know has now retired and there's a new President today.

Apparently, and this is a consistent "story" about Patti - who was a BIG
supporter of Doug Marman's activities at his SDP site and his efforts to redeem
Twitchell's reputation ending up with the book The Whole Truth.

BEST friend were Patti and Gail their whole life after Paul died, Gail came
out of "hiding" to write a PR "thankyou note to Marman" about that book.

It should be reasonably well known that Gail Twitchell was no great fan of
Klemp either.

And so what do we have here?

Marman, in the months after he wrote that story about Patti Simpson, he's on
the email having discussions with Klemp about "retiring" and moving on.

It was late in 2011 when my discussion occurred with Marman, iow post-WWS in
October.

The next time Klemp showed up in public he was in a wheelchair at the
Eckankar Springtime seminar giving his MY MISSION RENEWED talk.

HE WASN'T GOING ANYWHERE - GOT IT?

He also did a double-back and specifically mentioned that a WOMAN can
NOT ever become the LIVING ECK MASTER.

He also focused upon what he referred to as MINI-MASTERS - people he claimed
felt that THEY were ready and had been told that they were to be the NEW LEM.

WELL THEY WERE NOT - GOT IT?

As most would know, it was in early January 2012 that Klemp slipped on black
ice and broke his hip, ending up in hospital and rehab up to the April Seminar.

Isn't that all a bit "interesting"?

Here is a transcript of Klemp's talk with some info comments by me:
2012-04 Harold Klemp Eckankar Seminar Talk - My Mission Renewed (text extracts)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPbFNELWtIUVptLW8/view?usp=sharing

Have a read, see what you think about that talk now in 2016 and given what
Marman was doing chatting with Klemp in 2011. What do you make of it?

Interesting?

Well sure, but there's another kicker here courtesy of Marman.

He's a member of the "Eckankar" Yahoo discussion forum called Soul Forum, run
by Melodie Chrislock, she was part of the original SDP site he created in 2006. But they split and went there separate ways a while later.

The Soul Forum is private, unlisted, covert and "invitation only" - strangely
similar to the Bright Future covert group of Eckists who were active on a.r.e.
from the late 1990s to mid-2000s.

It's an interesting place. Anyway Marman is still on there, and a while back so
was Patti Simpson Rivinus. Marman has a way of ingratiating himself wiht people
as he's always so "nice" - he keeps an eye out for the "proper kind" of Eckist
for him to "counsel to a better understanding" of what Eckankar is REALLY all
about.

And so it is from there and by other means that PRIVATELY Marman has been
asserting for many years now that HAROLD KLEMP IS NO LONGER THE MAHANTA.

He claims that, well the what I will call the "Inner Eckankar Hierarchy Rules"
are that Klemp has every "right" to remain as the LEM - that only retirement or death can end that - that Klemp still has the "ONLY spiritual authority" to Initiate people into "Eckankar".

According to Marman Klemp has that for LIFE or whenever he wishes to "retire".

So even though Marman claims that Klemp has been REMOVED as the Mahanta by said "hierarchy" the "powers that be" cannot remove him as the Living Eck master!!!

One can be removed "spiritually" as "Mahanta" but not as "LEM" - you getting this?

Do you believe this? Or not? Can you even believe that Marman is out there saying this stuff as well as emailing Klemp about "retiring" in late 2011?

Fair Dinkum, as we say in Australia - how much can a Koala bear?

And yet despite Twitchell, Gross and Klemp being all asserting that they were
the Mahanta, the living ECK master, suddenly, under Marman's grandiose THEORIES
of life in ECK, HE is unable to tell anyone WHO IS THE NEW MAHANTA.

Times have changed and so the "lowly High Initiates, and even lower Initiates" you have to go work that out all by yourself using your Inner resources.

Now how is that for MAKING UP ECKANKAR DOCTRINE ON THE RUN ... ???

Can none these 'flakes' ever get their theories lined up?

See, according to Marman, he knows more than Twitchell, Gross, Klemp and everyone else about what is "right" and what is "wrong" as far as the TRUTH
of Eckankar Doctrines here on lowly Planet Earth.

Interesting? Well I really think it is absolutely amazing!!!

So what do YOU believe?

Better still, what do YOU really know - when even the Living ECK masters and
Patti Simpson, Gail Twitchell and Marman can't agree on anything ..... EVER?

Oh what a web we weave, when at first we do deceive!

Sleep tight folks.

Cheers

[Etznab]

Here is my 200 cents and comments about some of that.

I think a lot of things can happen with religion. Organized religion even. A lot of good and a lot of bad when considering an entire religious community. I also think most people join and stay in on account of the good, but with the more organized religions it is challenging for the average member to counter any great falsehoods such as the more man-made pseudo elements of history and religion. I think it can be challenging precisely within a hierarchy structure and when a majority subscribe to any fictions as literally true; or want to "market" the same.

That said, Is "Church" the same as "State"? and are members of both members of two exact same things? AS a citizen (of U.S.A. at least) people are believed granted some "freedom of religion" and must also abide by the laws of the land; in other words, the "State".

With all of the freedoms afforded religious members they are still not allowed to threaten the "State" as if their every religious belief (right or wrong) were the law of the land. So I think there was a natural conflict of interest during the forming of United States Constitution and the writers wanted to make a good constitution.

I think the potential problem of religions is that they are not the same and do not hold the same beliefs. History shows evidence of religious followers and groups of people fighting from generation to generation. So the point is that within a large group of people not all are going to see things the same way. Not all are going to agree; or even like one another. How then to keep peace within the group? How to keep the peace when even families consist of members coming from, or belonging to, different religions, different countries, or a range of different political parties?

I saw when Eckankar came out with a set of "guidelines" for members, especially at official and local Eckankar events. And I watched how the guidelines were respected by some, but repeatedly broken by others (and here is my main point in all of this). The hierarchy is the instrument for deciding and enforcing the "guidelines" and yet there is a MAJOR PROBLEM when higher-ups forego the same "guidelines", or "rules" the others are expected to obey.

Darwin Gross was a leader of Eckankar for about a decade when the membership numbers (I hear) grew greatly. Yet part of his legacy according to the current (last I saw) timeline of Eckankar masters shown on displays at outdoor events does not include his picture. I think Darwin was "removed" because it was possible within the hierarchy to do that. The top person (with support from others) was able to do that!

I think that, in a certain sense, the "rule makers" can use the same rules as a form of advantage and protection just like a person on top playing the game "King of the Hill".

There are countries in the world where leaders have extended their terms and it was possible to do that. The top of the hierarchy has greater power. Hierarchy then is used like the long arm of the law reaching down from the top and into everyday life. It is there for order and enforcement of the rules /laws. Some websites have their own hierarchies with names for the top members and the site owner. LFN has this too?

My point is that it is incumbent on the leadership and top people to obey and respect what is right or else risk corrupting an organization (what have you) to the core.

Remember the words of Patti Simpson about people wanting Eckankar to become a non-profit religion back in the 1970s? What were the supposed words of Paul Twitchell, the founder? "They'll be sorry." (?) I'm not sure that Doug and others spell it out like that. In Doug's book it sounded like Paul was on board with the decision.

In some respects I think Paul Twitchell lost control of Eckankar after it was put into the "box" of organized religion, so to speak. After it had to conform and abide by the rules to even become one.

In the beginning were perhaps round circles where people appeared equal and part of the same whole. Eventually theater style seating replaced the circle in certain formats as Eckankar centers took on more of the trappings from organized religion. More and more guidelines came in because they were deemed necessary. The circle and group discussions became marginalized to the extent that even a time period was in place. This is a significant thing, I believe, after looking at the name and the evolution of the typical Sunday service. I recall Harold having to mention (in so many words) even that people didn't want to sit and listen to people talk for an hour. Something like that. There was a guideline for what was to be the length of the round table discussion time vs. other parts of the service. IMO the whole thing centered around control and attempts to manage the events in a way consistent with what the head office deemed best. Iow, what Harold signed off on (so to speak). Regardless, people still broke the rules and because Harold wasn't there to enforce them. Iow, even the guidelines were not a sure fix. I think people still sit and get talked at for longer than Harold would like. That people still get surrounded by enthusiastic members telling them what literature they need to take with them.

So, my observations see a hierarchy trying to maintain structure where they need the membership, the larger group, in order to fully accomplish that for all of the official events. At the same time I suspect the "voice from on high" does not always come down as holy, as beneficial, as practical and necessary if a form of pseudo man-made history and religion attempts to eclipse the truth. Iow, if the leadership at the top, or even near the top, is deemed as flawed then the whole group can suffer in integrity. (And some in the majority will always find it easier to pin the whole fault on a single person, when it is really a "group" at fault.)

The president of U.S.A. gives a State of the Union speech and leaders of other countries have similar things. Ministers and clergy speak from the pulpit and instruct what is good for the church. All the while people are people and subject to human nature. Are any of the individuals really saints?

I think there needs to be forgiveness even for those in positions at the top, but that the forgiveness will grow less after repeated displays of abuse and / or disrespect. According to poles it might seem the majority of American people have little faith in the politicians to "get it right". So many are passive and at the same time take for granted the "hierarchy" will work it out. However, the rules and the political system was created to keep order and an instrument to guard the constitution. IMO it fails (the whole system) when it fails at the top! Forgiveness can mend things, mistakes can be overlooked and people get along more or less so long as it's not a repeated pattern of schism between the top, the top management, and a majority in the rest. Once a fracture between the leaders and the led (those who are led) grows to a certain extent a schism is inevitable. A break occurs and two different groups are created. The groups might subscribe to many of the same things, but usually the key difference is a new leadership. Especially in the form of the top person(s).

One can look on the Internet to see how many spin-offs of "Eckankar" there are. Also about how many spin-offs of other similar groups. It has been a very real and common occurrence; especially after a leader dies, and the results can affect generations!

I think it a greater responsibility to be in a position of leadership. Especially if needing to ask forgiveness; but I also think that mistakes need to be looked at and learned from. Writers here at a.r.e. have echoed that all religions change, or evolve over time. Also the results from failing to do so. Eckankar has a living leader and that allows for a certain type of change to be possible. However, I don't think that Harold's greatest challenge for change is the leadership. I think it's the membership because (taken together) the membership is the majority and the membership is what potentially makes, or breaks the organization.

Personally I would say that many, many members of Eckankar have enormous tolerance for injustices and mistakes. My experience has shown to me a majority of people who will let things go and not come down hard on people for their differing beliefs. (Not an absolute majority, but a majority.) This is a reason I choose to remain in Eckankar (the "Church") as an official member and not officially join any other religion, or group. I would say that Eckankar is my religion on account of the love displayed by people who I know and have met within Eckankar. Not all are still members, but I have love for them still because there is something beyond the confines of religious dogma and I think it might have been a vision of what those in the early days of Eckankar were able to capture and share like a form of nature experienced for a time, but allowed to remain a part of nature and not become a prisoner of men and women to be treated like a slaves.

Of course I blurred the lines between leadership from many different groups, but I did so on account of the similarities shared. There are some things that, when captured, will lose some of their innate expression. I don't believe that the vision for Eckankar was to be captured by the trappings of organized religion to the extent of becoming organized religion. I think there was / is something about Eckankar that is a challenge to share because it doesn't involve control. It doesn't involve rules like an organized environment trying to keep a wild animal, or something from nature.

Think of "truth" as the natural being and ignorance as that which learns from it and then you might catch a glimpse of the meaning and the reason I am still in Eckankar. All of those books that were supposedly taken from to create the written Eckankar teachings was IMO part of a "wild environment" that so many people had captured. Like Zoo animals it was the entire Zoo that made up the greater experience. So with Eckankar teachings people were able to see so many "Zoo animals" all in one place. They could wander around the Zoo and try to get a glimpse of nature, but the Zoo was not a natural but a man-made environment. It was not, because certain things were removed from each individuals environment and all the creatures were presented as if to be part of the same whole thing, be it an organized environment. (Who said I didn't have a sense of humor?)

Long story short, I doubt that mankind even today understands the greater truth about the whole universe in which it lives. I think we, as a species, are still learning and nobody, no religion, science or state institution has the corner on all of truth. Thinking that we do is (IMO) relatively a little like looking at a goldfish within a bowl. The golden teachings are not like a goldfish in a bowl (IMO) and Eckankar (as organized religion) will never gather up the whole no matter how many churches and / or members. (Neither will religions no matter how man "bowls")

Part of my experience in a.r.e. has been learning to look at the real versus the false. Learning to discern imagination from actual historical events. For that reason I continue to look at the line of Eck Masters in the historical sense. About what they reportedly taught and about "where" those teachings came from.

As members of Eckankar maybe not everyone was allowed to see where the writings all really came from, and for that reason were never able to fully appreciate them and see how they truly belonged to a larger environment. Maybe not every person has the ability to see the true larger context about all of the "golden teachings" from the world and religions and how they were outfitted for so many organized religions and lines of dogma to harness followers.

I think it time to expand the borders of "the Zoo" and increase the confines around so many religious teachings to the extent they are truly presented in the context of the environments from which they came! This is how truth will teach the ignorant, IMHO. This is how growing populations of people will find more and more true happiness within religions.

(This newsgroup allows people to express their opinions. Correct? How nice. Another person just did.)

[Henosis Sage]

--

RE: "(This newsgroup allows people to express their opinions. Correct? How nice. Another person just did.) "

ooooh aaaah another TWO posts reported to Google as "abuse"

ROTFLMAO

SOMEONE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH AND IS TRYING TO CENSOR IT AND OTHERS FREE SPEECH

Fark hey? Who could that be?

Eventually, if all goes well, the FBI will be talking directly with
Google this year as they collect their "forms" of evidence after looking
at MY evidence I have provided.

The "posts" so far this year remind of an alligators death roll.

Poor Matthew Sharpe and the LFN people who support and encourage this INSANITY,
the jig the is up.

and also for poor "marman" as well - the truth is coming for him as well as klemp and the rest of LIARS who infest the Eckankar Organisation worldwide.

*twinkle*

[Henosis Sage]

On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 03:05:16 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:

---

Hello Etznab, that was a good read.

I quite liked this bit near the end especially:

"Long story short, I doubt that mankind even today understands the greater
truth about the whole universe in which it lives. I think we, as a species,
are still learning and nobody, no religion, science or state institution
has the corner on all of truth.

Thinking that we do is (IMO) relatively a little like looking at a goldfish
within a bowl. The golden teachings are not like a goldfish in a bowl (IMO)
and Eckankar (as organized religion) will never gather up the whole no
matter how many churches and / or members.

(Neither will religions no matter how many "bowls")"

[end quote]

fwiw the other day I heard something that caught my attention and so I'll share it:

"Nature is the Master"

Cheers

[Henosis Sage]

---

Not many comments, but lots of views.

Marman must be a popular topic round these parts .....

[Etznab]

"Nature is the Master"

I think that was also a conclusion reached by people over thousands of years of history. They tried to model their systems of law after the laws of nature.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Since you tend to be more Hennosis Rage rather than Sage, there's little point in anyone trying to have a rational conversation with you.

This forum is increasingly a small-minded fiefdom that excludes all but views critical of ECKANKAR and has been in spiritual decline for many a long year. Ironically, for a forum with ECKANKAR in the name, it remains largely unknown to many ECK initiates. And rightly so.

[Henosis Sage]

Beauty, like Ugliness, rests in the Eye of the Beholder.

All the Masters say that is a reflection of "your level of consciousness"
Robert E Ilechuku.


... there's little point in anyone trying to have a rational conversation with you.
>

And yet despite this false *belief* Robert E Ilechuku, many people do have
rational conversations with me every single day, including today.

> This forum is increasingly a small-minded fiefdom that excludes all but views critical of ECKANKAR

This *forum* has no power to exclude anyone nor anyone's views. To say it does
is, well, irrational and false.

For did you not just make two posts here yourself Robert E Ilechuku?

.... and has been in spiritual decline for many a long year.

Was there ever a spiritual high point to decline from Robert E Ilechuku?
The Eckist Dean Edwards who founded a.r.e. tried to remove this group
6 months after he started it.


... Ironically, for a forum with ECKANKAR in the name, it remains largely unknown to many ECK initiates. And rightly so.

This forum does not have ECKANKAR in it's name Robert E Ilechuku, it actually
has "eckankar" .. in lower case.

ECKANKAR does not own this forum, nor hold a legal trademark over it.

It has always been "largely unknown" to many [99%?] ECK initiates even during
it's peak period of activity.

It is what it is.

"The ECK Masters are always near those who are bold and adventuresome."

so says Rebazar Tarzs via a story by Doug Marman.

See REF:
Following is the 52nd installment of the chapter by chapter response I
have written to David Lane's book, The Making of a Spiritual Movement.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/jrSIuFCZ5tQ/36UNHShg_t8J


*twinkle*

[Kinpa]

Thankfully there are a number of other spots on the internet that ECKists can go to discuss things in an open and hassle free manner...

[Henosis Sage]

----

Off ya go then .... ;-)

Take your sick filthy mind and disgusting lies with you and share it with ECKists online, at the ESC in MN, the LEM in Eden Prairie, or at your
nearest ECK Center.

You may not be the only one. You may not be the last one either.

Word gets around town fast these days.


(shrug)

[Kinpa]

NOPE! You have NO ability to get rid of me son, you ought to have realized that by now!

[Henosis Sage]

---

So you keep saying Father ... and saying, and saying and saying ...... BUT

"Thankfully there are a number of other spots on the internet that ECKists
can go to discuss things in an open and hassle free manner..."

Isn't that just super. You ought to have realized that by now Father!

You poor bastards who must feel like Christians hiding in fear inside
the Catacombs of Rome.... with padlocks on the steel gates door lest
some evil entity enter to destroy your "open and hassle free manner".

*sniffle*

Well thank god for the "Log In" hey father!

And Fear and Guilt of course.

[brada...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 4:52:00 AM UTC-6, Henosis Sage wrote:

First of all only the SUGMAD and the Nine Silent Ones choose who the next Living ECK Master is. Again how am I certain that Doug Marman said that just because you claim to be his friend and know so much. Unless Doug Marman himself states this I will believe it. This sort of thing went on with the previous living ECK Master Darwin Gross. Yes, there was a lot going on in office, etc. with Darwin. I personally asked myself inwardly about all this and got an answer. I was told a change was coming when the next guy was ready. Again I have also personally inwardly asked Rebazar Tarz who has been working with me inwardly and other students of ECKANKAR for a long time about all this. Harold is still the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. The MAHANTA is really the Inner Master and it still is Wah Z. Amazing how all this stuff gets out there, apparently often on this group. I do know there are two people in particular training for the job. There are several but two have been significantly chosen for several reasons. They are still in training as I was told last night even. I knew Darwin himself was out of balance for years. I was even shown inwardly in 1973 a problem. But Harold was still in training. I did have an interesting dream about Harold I think a couple of years back. That is when I asked. A name floated through my mind and was confirmed by Rebazar who is still the torchbearer for ECKANKAR. This person may step in for Harold because of his health issues. He will be appointed Master The other person will officially sometime in the future become the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. It does not matter whether they are a twelfth, a thirteenth(which Darwin actually had moved up), or fourteenth, because of the leap in MAHANTA Consciousness that occurred between Paul and Rebazar in 1965 whoever followed Paul had the title of MAHANTA. Is Harold on a power trip, as Doug is stating according to you, I do not think so myself. I knew Darwin was because of a blistering letter I got from him back in 1976. It is a long story.

There are big changes coming in the future with ECKANKAR and the Planet Earth. There was a reason ECKANKAR was brought to this planet and the Seat of Power established here. Again it was decided way back. Both Peddar Zaskq and Wah Z were also chosen way back. So was the next guy.

Anyway, I am working on books about this transformation that are not for public publication at present because they are written on a different level. Again I was asked to do this way back in the seventies by Paulji. My eyesight went out and was restored for this. I have written Harold about it. I did not get any blistering letter from him like I did from Darwin.

Anyway, there is much I could say but I will stop for now.

I just wanted to pass on some information. I have been posting on facebook about some of this.

Again May the Blessings Be,
Brad

[Etznab]

If Rebazar Tarzs was / is a fictional character (as copious amounts of copied and plagiarized material credited to him seem to suggest) then I doubt he will be stepping in for anybody.

As for Doug Marman, I recall his response to the idea of Rebazar Tarzs stepping in during the 35-day period between Paul's translation and Darwin's appointment (named by Paul's wife, Gail; whom she later married and then divorced.) There was also a bridge in MN (on HWY 35 was it) that failed?

About the breach, here is a quote:

"[...] Rebazar Tarzs stepped into breach and served as the living ECK Master for
the 35 day period between, the translation and the passing of the Mantle to
the present living ECK Master, Sri Darwin Gross. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5B5E3CoZ8zc/c6CL9XPapYkJ

This is what Doug wrote:

Etznab,

I left out that reference to Rebazar Tarzs stepping in during those 35 days because I wasn't sure where this idea came from. I know Paul never said it. I don't believe it came from Darwin, although he might have seen the article before it went to press.

My book was already too long, so I tried to stay as focused as possible on the most basic events of that time.

One thing I did hear was that the feeling of connection to the Master continued during that time. Most Eckists felt as if the Inner Master still present. The inner connection was still strong. So, you can see why they would naturally wonder who the Master was during that time.

Another common idea amongst Eckists at that time was the belief that the new Master could not step in until October 22. This came from their interpretations of what they had read. So, that left the question of who was holding this consciousness during that transition period.

This might explain why people would conclude that Rebazar was holding the reins during the interim period, but I've never found logic to be a good way of discerning spiritual truth.

However, I think it is safe to say that this note in the Mystic World is an indication that many Eckists looked to Rebazar as the Master for that period of time.

Doug.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5B5E3CoZ8zc/XmHEw8cIr98J

So, naturally, it is true some people believed Rebazar had stepped into the breach. My point in a previous post (to which Doug responded) focused on the quotes from members before and after Paul translated which didn't appear to confirm a Rebazar Tarzs stepping into the breach. (I believe that story came out months after the fact.)

Take a look at this post for examples.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5B5E3CoZ8zc/4r9fuLPNH_cJ

[Etznab]

IMHO if a real live living Rebazar Tarzs had really stepped into the 35-day breach then I reckon people would not have been wondering who was in charge and people would not have been looking to Gail, or to the late Paul Twitchell, to name the next Living Eck Master. Iow, if a REAL LIVE Rebazar was REALLY in charge as L.E.M. at the time then he would naturally have been the one to name Paul's successor. That's the way it looks to me, at least.

[Henosis Sage]

RE "First of all only the SUGMAD and the Nine Silent Ones choose who the next Living ECK Master is."

That's a belief. Before Twitchell that belief never existed, no one believed it.


RE "Again how am I certain that Doug Marman said that just because you claim to be his friend and know so much. Unless Doug Marman himself states this I will believe it."

Then write to him or phone him at home and simply ask him. The proof is in the eating.


RE "This sort of thing went on with the previous living ECK Master Darwin Gross. Yes, there was a lot going on in office, etc. with Darwin. I personally asked myself inwardly about all this and got an answer. I was told a change was coming when the next guy was ready."

Another belief.

RE "Again I have also personally inwardly asked Rebazar Tarz who has been working with me inwardly and other students of ECKANKAR for a long time about all this. Harold is still the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. The MAHANTA is really the Inner Master and it still is Wah Z."

A whole series of interconnected beliefs.

RE "Amazing how all this stuff gets out there, apparently often on this group. I do know there are two people in particular training for the job. There are several but two have been significantly chosen for several reasons. They are still in training as I was told last night even. I knew Darwin himself was out of balance for years. I was even shown inwardly in 1973 a problem. But Harold was still in training. I did have an interesting dream about Harold I think a couple of years back. That is when I asked. A name floated through my mind and was confirmed by Rebazar who is still the torchbearer for ECKANKAR. This person may step in for Harold because of his health issues. He will be appointed Master The other person will officially sometime in the future become the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. It does not matter whether they are a twelfth, a thirteenth(which Darwin actually had moved up), or fourteenth, because of the leap in MAHANTA Consciousness that occurred between Paul and Rebazar in 1965 whoever followed Paul had the title of MAHANTA. Is Harold on a power trip, as Doug is stating according to you, I do not think so myself. I knew Darwin was because of a blistering letter I got from him back in 1976. It is a long story."


It's still only a "story".
>
>

RE "There are big changes coming in the future with ECKANKAR and the Planet Earth. There was a reason ECKANKAR was brought to this planet and the Seat of Power established here. Again it was decided way back. Both Peddar Zaskq and Wah Z were also chosen way back. So was the next guy."

More "story".


>
>


RE "Anyway, I am working on books about this transformation that are not for public publication at present because they are written on a different level. Again I was asked to do this way back in the seventies by Paulji. My eyesight went out and was restored for this. I have written Harold about it. I did not get any blistering letter from him like I did from Darwin."

Sure. If only everyone was a great and knowledgeable as you are about such matters you and eckankar and harold and RT wouldn't be needed.

>
> Anyway, there is much I could say but I will stop for now.
>
> I just wanted to pass on some information. I have been posting on facebook about some of this.
>
> Again May the Blessings Be,
> Brad

No worries. Good luck.

[Henosis Sage]

RE "This came from their interpretations of what they had read."

That's from where everything about Eckankar comes from. ... people's interpretations about what they have read. Doug is no exception to this rule.

It's why he likes to give eckists even more to "read" and "interpret" :-)

[Henosis Sage]

Gail Twitchell, Patti Simpson, Millie Moore, all the other 8ths of the day never mentioned RT once regarding making DG the lem.

Gail contacted Darwin telling him he was the new leader within a few days of Paul's death. She let him know personally, no one else. (according to Patti as reported by Brad Steiger in print)

People love a good "story" though. :-)

[Kinpa]

That is all that assumptions really are~!

[Kinpa]

Excellent. I would prefer to hear from you on this matter rather than the several who remain here and post most often using their innumerable assumptions as evidence along with their assumptions that any who have any degree of inner experiences are victims of their own mental breakdowns. That from folks who seem to fail at achieving any degree of inner awareness of their own, regardless of any experiences with, or lack thereof, any of the various ECK Masters. I look forward to hearing your contributions and writings! Baraka Bashad!

[brada...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 4:52:00 AM UTC-6, Henosis Sage wrote:

The mind is wonderful. The Kal is wonderful at this game. Again. I do not care what Doug Marman or any of you or any high initiates who get on their own mind trips think. I know what I know. And you can believe what you think and know. What does it matter. The relationship between you and the Holy Spirit or God is between you and It. Again the mind loves to chew and chew and chew. Spiritually things travel in a circle, the mind travels in linear fashion. Soul sees things from a whole perspective. Rebazar Tarz is real and did step into that breach whether Doug Marman or whoever believed it. Do not care if Doug is still on the path or not. Again Vanity does not go away and can even affect the highest there is. The story of the fallen angels was not a myth but a reality. Like I said, you guys have been here ranting back and forth for years and most devoted students of ECKANKAR have no idea and probably do not care.

So, whatever. It is interesting, Ford Johnson's website has been taken down I believe because it does not exist. One was able to get into it in past. Like I said the Kal is good at his game and probably laughs at even what is on here.

Again I have not been on this crazy link for a long time but decided to give it a shot not from mind game craziness like possibly Doug and all these High Initiates are into. I am not into mind games because I do not think they are necessary. I lived with a person who was very strong in negativity and know what it is to keep a balance every day.

So to all those on this group May the Blessings Be and keep on ranting including Doug Marman and the other mind game driven High Initiates whoever they are.

Love gives and power takes.
May The Blessings Be,
Brad in Houston

[brada...@gmail.com]

This business about Rebazar Tarz is not an assumption. It is true. It does not matter. It does not matter to Rebazar either. He laughs at all this because again the very power that one uses to do all this is the same. In Patti's Simpson's book she told that Paul told her this as well.
Rebazar Tarz has stepped in in the past as well.
Oh well. Whatever turns your clock.
May the Blessings Be

[brada...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 4:52:00 AM UTC-6, Henosis Sage wrote:

Again if Doug Marman is stating all this to you privately or what have you, then why he is he cowardly not appearing on here to defend his own beliefs and statements. This is, as I said, a bunch of mental hogwash, but it is okay. As I said, the mind is an instrument but a terrible master.

[Henosis Sage]

Patti Simpson certainly didn't support Klemp or eckankar late in life.
Why would Patti need to have Paul tell her what RT says about xyz?
Find one section in Patti's books where she talks about meeting with RT, or any other 'master' irl or dream state.

Why would Patti Simpson tell chelas that eckankar and HK are not important and are irrelevant.

Why would Patti Simpson encourage and support people leaving eckankar and label it as an attractive place for people into power? eg "Unfortunately some who stay come to enjoy the power they wield."

Patti permanently walked away from eckankar in the early 1990s after walking away initially in 1985 after HK instituted all his legal changes.

In the next 20 years before passing away, in public and in private it appears that Patti Simpson never ever spoke about or relied upon "eck masters" when talking with others and the teachings of Twitchell that she liked and believed helpful.

"TWITCHELL CREATED A SYSTEM for a human to methodically overcome the illusion of this plane of existence, to gradually free his consciousness of the chains of the lower worlds."
by Patti Simpson Rivinus 2011-02-11 (Published with Permission)

That is what she believed he did.

She liked it and believed it worked.

Paul's stories and RT are part of the illusion.

It's easy to plant illusions in people.

Look around you.

Look in the mirror.

[Henosis Sage]

Go ask him directly.

He has been saying to others (not just me) since the late 2000s to others HK is no longer the Mahanta, there is someone else in charge.

Go ask him. He might deny it.

An old haunt of his ... I assume this stuff goes on in private facebook groups nowadays. Or like all things eckankar everything is dying a slow death.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/soulforum/info

[brada...@gmail.com]

I emailed Doug about Patti. Paul helped Patti cross to the other side. Doug agreed with me. Patti is working as Paul's Assistant currently on the other side. Paulji also assists Wah Z. Again you can believe the illusions you want. People were seeing ECK Masters including myself in this lifetime long before the ECK teachings came around. They are real to me. Just because you do not believe or accept them does not mean they are real. You can blab and blab all you want. Again you can do what you want. i do not care. Your mental attacks are meaningless. You look in your own mirror sometime'
Whatever,

[Henosis Sage]

I thought my story about Marman posted over a year ago now was really interesting about what was going on 5 years earlier around the time that Patti died and since.

In fact quite insightful and containing new original information to share about he and Klemp with others interested. People have a right to know such things about Doug and Harold and others who have a 'power of influence' over others's beliefs and thinking and knowledge.

Why are you complaining about this 'story/report' and Doug? (rhetorical)

[brada...@gmail.com]

Doug Marman can believe what he wants. I could care less about what some H.I. or former H.I. who is stuck in their own mental illusions and mental games believes. Again you can throw all your mental rocks at me. I lived with a mother that was more powerful psychically and negatively than all the mental garbage that you think you can dish. I spent two years without eyesight and went through heart attacks and everything else. Your wasteful garbage is nothing to me.

Look in your own mirror

[brada...@gmail.com]

Blah, Blah, Blah. None of this stuff on here matters a hill of beans frankly except to all the people on here that waste their lives on mental diatribe instead of going out and doing useful things like helping other people. again all the negativity that flows from mental diatribe is like a big empty saucer that spills and spills and spills. You guys try to be clever and just seem to go round and round in circles.

GET YOURSELVES A REAL LIFE SOMEDAY

[Tisra Til]

Now who's throwing the mental garbage around, exactly? Please, tell me from that exalted soul level of yours.

[Henosis Sage]

RE "Your mental attacks are meaningless."

That's because there were none.

[brada...@gmail.com]

I see you call yourself Tisra Til again some alias instead of using your own name. You guys like to hide in corners instead of showing who you really are.

Yeah I am spewing the same diatribe you guys do because I just feel like it. I am soul period, not exalted, or anything.

again cowards die a thousand deaths. My mother was anti ECKANAKAR but guess what when she passed away she was walking with Rebazar Tarz who you guys believe is fake. I am soul period not exalted not high not low. So are all of you but I do not put myself on a pedestal and try to waste the energy. Again GET YOURSELVES A LIFE. I wish you could be in this place to see people who are barely in the physical but seem to be more spiritually aware than all of you who day after day try to spew out vain attempts at spirituality.

[Henosis Sage]

RE "Again you can throw all your mental rocks at me"

What 'mental rocks'? Because there are none.

Sorry about your mother. Childhood stuff sticks around for a lifetime.

[Henosis Sage]

Hey no need to pick on me.

I was merely a humble reporter reporting the news a year ago. It's all true too.

[Tisra Til]

GET YOURSELVES A LIFE..... Now what was this about throwing mental garbage around?

[brada...@gmail.com]

Que Sera Sera. Whatever will be will be. The future is not up to you or me because It is in the now. Again round and round the mind goes and where it stops it never knows. Soul from a viewpoint state sees all and knows all. Not me the physical person but soul. Again soul often decides how far it will go on a spiritual path or whether it will follow a spiritual path even before this lifetime. I know what many of my past lives were. But again I do not care if anyone else will accept it. Karma and Reincarnation are real principles. Again the Earth plane is a school ground for soul to learn at a faster rate than the other worlds. That is why soul is here. It may have to go through certain forms of abuse in the physical to grow. The Lords of Karma do exist and whether you believe it or not set up someone like Hitler or Stalin or allow them to exist in order for certain karma to happen. Everyone including those of us on the path of ECK have done dirty deeds in the past. I know about many of mine and know why I am going through what I am going through know. I do have help from the MAHANTA and the ECK. My girl friend has help from Jesus.
the ECK works through both.

[brada...@gmail.com]

again truth is in the eye of the beholder. Harold whether Doug Marman or anyone else believes it or not is still the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. Again it is not up to you, Doug Marman, or anyone else but the SUGMAD and the Nine Silent Ones in the choice of who the next Living ECK Master is. When the time comes, Harold will say it. Again all this mental hoo haw from you or Doug or whoever is just a waste because you guys are not part of the spiritual hierarchy, although you act like it. Oh well I have to go for the night. So again May the Blessings Be. This weekend there is a Seminar in Minnesota for ECKANKAR. I personally can feel the flow and the changes coming. The MAHANTA is really responsible for all souls and all religions and all paths whether you guys believe it or not. So I will say Adios. Amen. Baraka Bashad. it has been fun but now we must part. Humor is the best of all solutions.

[brada...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 6:57:29 PM UTC-5, Tisra Til wrote:
> GET YOURSELVES A LIFE..... Now what was this about throwing mental garbage around?

In the end scheme of things does all this really matter. When you actually face death's door as I have, does all this matter?

[Henosis Sage]

RE "again truth is in the eye of the beholder."


No it isn't. That's called bias, subjectivity, and personal preferences. Truth Is.

RE: "Harold whether Doug Marman or anyone else believes it or not is still the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master."

And that too is a belief.

RE "Again it is not up to you, Doug Marman, or anyone else but the SUGMAD and the Nine Silent Ones in the choice of who the next Living ECK Master is."

Another belief.

RE "When the time comes, Harold will say it."

Will he? Paul didn't. Sudar Singh didn't. Darwin Gross didn't say it either. Darwin said the opposite in fact as have many others. Like Patti, Gail and Marman.


RE "Again all this mental hoo haw from you or Doug or whoever is just a waste because you guys are not part of the spiritual hierarchy, although you act like it."

Discussing eckankar and it's foundations and actions usually ends up in mental hoo haw from everyone.


RE "The MAHANTA is really responsible for all souls and all religions and all paths whether you guys believe it or not."


That there is another belief. Lot's of beliefs are to found in Eckankar and outside it.

Adios! :-)

[Henosis Sage]

The key words here are Patti saying that "he created a system" ... the name he gave the "system" was Eckankar.


Patti did not say Paul was the 971st in a line of eck masters that included RT and others.

To see how Twitchell "created his system" have a read of Dialogues with the Master and see where the words placed into RTs mouth really came from ...

Including:

Leo Tolstoy 1869 H. Rider Haggard 1886 SSG Hazur Maharaj 1897

Charles F. Haanel 1912 Theron Q. Dumon 1913 Harriett A. Curtiss 1914

Ali Nomad 1915 L. Bolton 1921 A. S. Eddington 1928

Sir James Jeans 1930 Anton T. Boisen 1936 Julian Johnson 1939

Heinrich R. Zimmer 1951 Paul Twitchell (RS) 1956 Willard L. Russell 1959

Paul Brunton 1941 Brown Landone 1945 Joel S. Goldsmith 1955

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPdzhFU2JFalJoaEU


another example of how Twitchell "created" his system and religion?

After the first meeting Mitose told me Twitchell was the perfect man to

head a new religious organization which would blend Oriental philosophy

with his ideas. He was right, and that is exactly what Twitchell did. But

not with Mitose.

After many meetings over the next two years, (1962-1963) in which it

was impossible to tell where Mitose's ideas began and Twitchell's left off,

Twitchell walked away and began laying the foundation for his own

religion.

It's hierarchy would be based almost entirely on what Mitose and he had

discussed. The new religion would be a blend of Hindu-Buddhist

theology, Mormon doctrine and everything Twitchell had imagined.

I had always believed, and told Mitose after Twitchell just stopped

coming to Los Angeles, that he and Twitchell might have founded their

own religion if he had not been so opposed the Hindu theology.

The two men thought very much alike. Both were devious and didn't let

the left hand know what the right hand was doing. And, as it turned out,

both were using the other to gain what each wanted -- But what they

wanted, just didn't include the other.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPNFY4XzBwOFFHelk

That was during 1961 into 1963 while Paul was "writing" LTG living in Seattle.

In Dec 1963 Paul and Gail attended Kirpal Singh's lectures in San Francisco where Gail got Initiated into Ruhani Satsang after applying for it months before and going through basic training and committing herself (as required by the Master) to that groups basic guidelines such as vegetarianism and no sex out of wedlock etc etc etc.

At this time Paul gave Kirpal a copy of his The Tiger's Fang manuscript, not published by IWP until 1967.

Dr John Lovelace a Ruhani HI/admin leader would be the one who approved Gail Twitchell's initiation before Kirpal's arrival.

November 18th

[...] which was given on November 16, before the Master flew to Seattle,

Washington. He was welcomed at Seattle by Dr. John Lovelace, his

California representative,

December 2nd

In San Francisco, Kirpal Singh was the guest of Mr. and Mrs. Walter

Baptiste who gave a special reception in his honor. Two public meetings

were again held in that city, and, after initiation on December 2, Kirpal

Singh left for Santa Barbara, Southern California, [...]

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/tours/63/THIR-17.htm

Dr John Lovelace even shows up in the text of LTG and noted by Darwin Gross.

These matters and many other historical notes are not seen as important by many maybe most people who have had contact with Eckankar.

[brada...@gmail.com]

As I said before Paul Twitchell is not alive anymore to defend himself. Patti Simpson is not alive to defend herself. Darwin Gross died. You guys can quote and link and do what you want. Again no one seems to care but this bunch of people on here who have nothing better to do with their lives in a more positive way than be critics. Whatever. The purpose of any religion is to teach divine love but as I said my girl friend comes from a more loving place than all you alias people on here that do not have the guts to even use your real names. Doug has but if he believes what he believes than so be it.

I have no reason to listen to all this dribble but it was fun while it lasted.
So long for now

[wernertrp]

I use my real name and my real hobby wernertrp.
As long as the last teeth will stay.

[Tisra Til]

Yeah. But what about this Rebazar Tarzs character? Isn't he still around? Why doesn't he step out of the shadows and show himself? That would probably be enough proof for anyone that Paul Twitchell wasn't in fact lying his tail off, and was close friends with a 500 year old Tibetan who's adept at flying all over the universe in his spiritual body. Heck, even I might believe it.

[Etznab]

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:43:26 AM UTC-5, brada...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone questions the history and reality of Rebazar Tarzs based on reams of copied and plagiarized material credited to him by Paul Twitchell (one known to have copied and plagiarized other sources)then what is it to you? Is it that you can't allow others the liberty to question and clarify the truth? Or is it that you, like others here in the past, can hardly stand to consider a narrative so different from what was written in the books.

There was a point made lately about people having beliefs according to what they read. In other words, based on what someone else said or claimed. History is full of fantastic claims that make for good stories, but stories at the same time which were man (and woman)-made. Paul Twitchell included comments about the topics of pseudo history and religion and Harold confirmed that Paul was someone who gathered material from various sources. Truth be told one can look at what sources and books by other authors who were not Eck Masters, who did not belong to Eckankar Inc. and / or who wrote their materials years before Paul Twitchell ever mentioned the word (actually "coined" the word) "Eckankar".

Really I don't hesitate to confront people who come across as nasty and those who speak like "my way or the highway" because for years I have taken great pains to be civil and respectful no matter who the poster was. Also have taken great care to speak for myself and not for others. And as a member of Eckankar for many years I am not one to judge another based on whether they have "inner" experiences, etc. I express my opinion and make it clear what is my opinion and this is not something to be afraid of. I just don't care who it is, or what the status of anybody when I question the history of Rebazar Tarzs based on so many copied words times, places and dates that don't add up. It is not an "if" or even a "maybe" anymore, especially when Writings exist where even the names of the masters have changed and Rebazar Tarzs come in to replace the names of other people; be it Jesus, or someone else. So this talk about "the mind" and what is "mental" could probably better fit those who imagine their own realities, the "inner", whatever, and deny the glaringly obvious. Frankly I think it is most dangerous and potentially devastating to concoct fabricated fantasies and to deny the truth. How does one think all of the wars of religion took place and take place even today? And with each side believing in "God"?

I think nobody has to believe in Rebazar Tarzs as a real live living (in the flesh) person and believe in that based on faith alone. I think one would do well to answer the question about where the writings really came from and not just believe everything that Paul Twitchell wrote as if Paul never fibbed. We were told by Doug that Paul was (in so many words) just having fun when he put out information that wasn't true. Well, there is another group that evolved out of Eckankar and where the leader's wife claimed she wrote a book dictated by the late Paul Twitchell. How fun is that? And how fun is Duane the Great Writer who dictated books by Rebazar Tarzs and eclipsed (rewrote) those allegedly dictated by Rebazar books written by Paul? All of those spin-off groups with different living masters, masters portraits and copied / rewritten materials ... Are we having fun yet? Talk about the mind and mental!

[Henosis Sage]

RE "I have no reason to listen to all this dribble but it was fun while it lasted."

Alright then. At least you're not being insulting or dismissive of other people. :-)

RE "You guys can quote and link and do what you want."

Um, yeah. That's true.

I repeat .... So what do YOU believe? Better still, what do YOU really KNOW - when even the Living ECK masters (Paul, Darwin, Harold) and Patti Simpson, Gail Twitchell and Marman can't agree on anything ..... EVER?

Meanwhile triggered emotions always have a lot to say.

Hitler, Nixon, Ghandi, and L Ron Hubbard are all dead too. And it's not surprising that people today are still talking about what they said and did even though none of them are here to defend themselves.

That is real common sense and logical thought at work. It's called reality versus fantasy beliefs and opinions.

When one's religion helps one to be a better person that's a good thing.

[Henosis Sage]

RE "Frankly I think it is most dangerous and potentially devastating to concoct fabricated fantasies and to deny the truth."

Frankly, I agree. :-)

There is no excuse for Fake News stories. Whether that so from the media, political activists, or climate change deniers and science obfuscaters, OR Eckankar in the 1960s until today - the same ethics applies.

[Kinpa]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I made that comment about assumptions, and with it I was not referring to you in any way. That was directed at Henosis "Sage."

It does not matter. It does not matter to Rebazar either. He laughs at all this because again the very power that one uses to do all this is the same. In Patti's Simpson's book she told that Paul told her this as well.
> Rebazar Tarz has stepped in in the past as well.
> Oh well. Whatever turns your clock.
> May the Blessings Be

------------------------------------------------------------------
I have absolutely NO problems with Rebazar Tarzs or Paul Twitchell, Patti Simpson nor with Harold Klemp, nor with anything that you have said, I simply come here to be entertained by the things some of the others repeat often.

[Kinpa]

>------------------------------------------------------------
Stop assuming and ask her for a change. Stop trying to put words and ideas into her head by anything she might have ever said before. No religion matters in any way, they ALL ARE simply mental constructs and the best that they can do for anyone is to help them achieve the various levels to move through the levels up through the mind. Eckankar has never claimed to be the only way to any of the levels beyond the mind, in fact, it says quite the opposite, that all religious systems can help people evolve through various llevels.

> Patti permanently walked away from eckankar in the early 1990s after walking away initially in 1985 after HK instituted all his legal changes.
>
> In the next 20 years before passing away, in public and in private it appears that Patti Simpson never ever spoke about or relied upon "eck masters" when talking with others and the teachings of Twitchell that she liked and believed helpful.
>
> "TWITCHELL CREATED A SYSTEM for a human to methodically overcome the illusion of this plane of existence, to gradually free his consciousness of the chains of the lower worlds."
> by Patti Simpson Rivinus 2011-02-11 (Published with Permission)
>
> That is what she believed he did.
>
> She liked it and believed it worked.
>
> Paul's stories and RT are part of the illusion.

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feel free to show any direct evidence of that assumption you continue to enjoy, that in reality being as much of an illusion as you claim Rebazar Tarzs to be. It is funny that you are unable to see that fact. To each their own.

> It's easy to plant illusions in people.
>
> Look around you.
>
> Look in the mirror.

------------------------------------------------------
You need to take your own advice for a change...unless you are too scared to...

[Kinpa]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
That must be why you have never shown any proof of his ever having said this. It is rather funny when you do this purposeful defamation of people who do not agree with you and your opinions.

[rothl...@gmail.com]

This has been a hilarious read. Rebazar physically saved me from going over a waterfall in Timber Falls, Montana during Spring runoffs 1975. No confusion on my part about Tarz😂

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 7 August 2017 07:42:37 UTC+10, rothl...@gmail.com wrote:
> This has been a hilarious read. Rebazar physically saved me from going over a waterfall in Timber Falls, Montana during Spring runoffs 1975. No confusion on my part about Tarz😂

---

Of course he did. And no, you could never be confused about such a profound physically real "spiritual" experience. Anyone who doubts your "credible" reports must be be totally insane.

So I would never ever say what you just said has been a hilarious read! No Never.

FWIW a repost by another person (um, that means not by me) in april 2017::

An attempt to sue eckankar is no surprise. I thought of a class lawsuit and posted it on this or another forum several years ago. Recently I was contacted by the group behind the major suit, and without repeating the brief contents of the email, this is what I wrote in return:

I couldn't disagree more with this statement you made: "Only by challenging this devious dark cult can people get released. Our experience is that for the time people are members, their lives and personal development are on hold, which indicates the cult is some kind of death state." Let’s look into this deeper.

I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. I never saw any indication of a threat to anyone's life in eckankar. Instead, what I witnessed was a pathological state in which the leaders of the cult continually manipulate the followers by means of plagiarized information and a mix of truth with untruth. I suppose if you were of a Christian fundamentalist bent you would call this dark magic or some such terminology.

Unlike with other cults, I have never heard of eckankar locking people in a closet, physically separating them from their community or family, starving them or using financial leverage for coercion. However, they are very good at purveying nonsense and wasting people's time and money. They are also good at subliminal psychological manipulation. Is this a crime? I doubt it, but then again I am not a lawyer.

Clearly, hundreds, if not thousands, of pages documenting eckankar's plagiarisms, lies, and subtle manipulations is easy to find on the internet and elsewhere. And, for any discerning mind, it is easy to spot all of these lies and plagiarisms at a glance.

Each eckankar leader, a self-proclaimed spiritual master, has been a megalomaniac with the possibility of also being sociopathic. What else could explain their lying, deception and self-aggrandizement that is performed with such impunity from within? The current leader, Harold Klemp, is a sad excuse for an individual who has continually elevated his stature to his followers, as he has claimed himself to be a "godman" and a "modern day prophet."

Further, the cornerstone of eckankar is to have people believe that their own imagined "experiences" are real. The success in achieving this relies on naiveté about the nature of the mind and how it functions. And add in a lot of wishful thinking to the mix. The human mind is an instrument formed by continued conditioning. Eckankar merely adds to the conditioning with its absurd and dogmatic nonsense.

What more can I say about a group that is headed by a liar and manipulator, and is founded on a bible that would be laughed at out of derision by any scholar or independent thinker for its absurdities and outrageous fantasy?

But is eckankar dangerous? That's not my personal experience. I only know that in its earlier days the cult tried to pursue legal recourse against Berkeley professor David Lane, PhD for his book about the founder of eckankar, Paul Twitchell whose lies and plagiarisms were the target of his work. Twitchell's lies and plagiarisms are defended by Klemp in the most sophomoric way, and they are dismissed by the eckankar membership who talk a lot about truth and moral superiority but who put up with this crap for the extent of their tenure in the cult. Thanks to the internet, I quickly saw what eckankar was and was able to mete out some of my long-held suspicions because David Lane and I exchanged emails. I’m sure he helped a lot of people see the truth by means of exposing the lies and contradictions inherent in eckankar teachings, beginning with what he presented in his book.

Eckankar relies heavily on a lack of critical thinking, promises of expanded “spiritual powers” (whatever that means) by means of arbitrary initiations, and total devotion that would keep people from exploring religious and philosophical teachings that make eckankar’s hodgepodge of rhetoric easily noticeable. It all boils down to what an individual wants — truth, honesty, self-deception, or a life lived according to moral relativism.

Do you really want to help people REALISE their full potential in life??

Then send them in these directions and away from insidious dysfunctional CULTS and the sociopaths and psychotic leadership of Eckankar is my recommendation:::

Reason is 98% Subconscious Metaphor in Frames & CULTural Narratives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm0R1du1GqA

Home > Psychology Articles > Psychology Articles > Cognitive Dissonance: Stop Lying to Yourself
http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/stop-lying.html

Relationships between Religious Belief, Analytic Thinking, Mentalizing and Moral Concern
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989#abstract0

For beginners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OedkyxEqtA

One can still be loving, caring, love god, love life, and be a good ethical decent person without Eckankar's life long manipulation and LIES.

Really - you can ~!!!

Why? Because Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
http://www.ranker.com/list/best-idiocracy-quotes/movie-and-tv-quotes?var=2&utm_expid=16418821-311.AAszGoDYQ7WZsue0Bhz6ww.1

(smile)

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 7 August 2017 07:42:37 UTC+10, rothl...@gmail.com wrote:

> This has been a hilarious read. Rebazar physically saved me from going over a waterfall in Timber Falls, Montana during Spring runoffs 1975. No confusion on my part about Tarz😂

is this you or rebazar? :-)
https://www.google.com.au/search?tbs=bks:1&q=isbn:0064301583&gws_rd=cr&ei=wpuHWambHsvJ0gSL84KgCg

[rothl...@gmail.com]

He wants to be me😂https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Destruction_of_Atlantis.html?id=l_lkAwAAQBAJ&hl=en

[Henosis Sage]

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 03:48:33 UTC+10, rothl...@gmail.com wrote:
> He wants to be me😂https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Destruction_of_Atlantis.html?id=l_lkAwAAQBAJ&hl=en

'Your' (?) prolific writing of books sitting in MN may be "compelling evidence" for Klemp, but ...

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/evidence

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/compelling

... it doesn't float my boat one bit.

"Draws together compelling evidence from geology, astronomy, myths, and ancient
texts to prove the existence of Atlantean civilization and its catastrophic end
- Includes a vivid narrative that re-creates the last days of Atlantis."

BOLLOCKS ... try not to choke on the money you make producing this rubbish.

Karma's a right bitch some days. eg Klemp's black ice slip up, and Twitchell's
heart attack etc etc etc

[rothl...@gmail.com]

Pretty pathetic attempt to put down awesome folks if u asked me😥

[rothl...@gmail.com]

You forgot to mention former Mahanta Milarepa dying from being poisoned, too🎶Huuuuu

[rothl...@gmail.com]

My very favorite Trump quote!👍

"Tou can’t make yourself closer to God by hating someone else, whether you believe it’s righteous anger or not. The relationship between Soul—which is you—and God is one of love. And where there’s pure love, there is no room for anger of any kind."

Harold Klemp

[Henosis Sage]

Bah Humbug ... I might believe Harold on "anger" when he can practice what he preaches! Go work on your blind spot mate.

And if you assume I'm angry well you better go check your own inner guidance again because you're in the wrong galaxy on that daft claim.

[rothl...@gmail.com]

"For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity." -- Mark Twain, letter to William Stead, 1890 (Huuu😂)

[Etznab]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 2:16:52 AM UTC-5, rothl...@gmail.com wrote:
> You forgot to mention former Mahanta Milarepa dying from being poisoned, too🎶Huuuuu

Former Mahanta Milarepa? I think the latest dictionary called him an Eck Master. That was Harold's dictionary. Paul's dictionary had Milarepa as a follower of Eckankar.

Look for mention of Milarepa's master Marpa in Harold's Eckankar dictionary. Find it? I didn't. Not in Paul's Eckankar dictionary either.

Really one has to look past the formation of Michael Owens' early site and the role of Milarepa there. Then look at what Harold Klemp alleged about Milarepa's master, Marpa. (Not that any of this is actually true at all.)

Supplemental links:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/PMKEdHKZhik/_kaHZQ59AwAJ

[Etznab]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 2:16:52 AM UTC-5, rothl...@gmail.com wrote:

> You forgot to mention former Mahanta Milarepa dying from being poisoned, too🎶Huuuuu

Milarepa was / is (but now is Babaji?) the claimed torchbearer for Michael Owens. See.

"I am the Living Sehaji Master, the 974th in an unbroken line of Masters spanning the centuries from Milati and Agnotti, two of the first in this universe, through Milarepa, the Torch Bearer, and others who have held similar positions of honor. I received the Rod of Power in 2003 in the Valley of Tirmer at the hand of Milarepa, the Spiritual Master who heads the Grand Council."

https://sites.google.com/site/thewayoftrutheurope/Home/a-letter-of-introduction

Someone check the date on that page.

Anyhow, an Eckankar publication from years ago attempted (evidently) to trump the Michael Owens line of masters by describing Milarepa's master, Marpa, as an Eck Master (if I remember correctly - see Mystic World article, June 2005?) Not Milarepa, mind you, but Marpa!

[rothl...@gmail.com]

Yawn....u forgot to mention now expensive book by Thomas Flamma anointing Milarepa as a Mahanta, but blather on. ♪💤

[wernertrp]

Am Dienstag, 22. August 2017 14:32:35 UTC+2 schrieb rothl...@gmail.com:
> Yawn....u forgot to mention now expensive book by Thomas Flamma anointing Milarepa as a Mahanta, but blather on. ♪💤

Who is my master ?

is it:

Gurdjieff
Jan Cox
Josef Sedlmaier
Alfred Schnittke
Vissarion
Rudolf Steiner
Dizzy
Perry Rhodan
Helga
CW Chanter
... list will be continued


can he help me ?

[rothl...@gmail.com]

U tell me♫♪💤https://eckankarblog.org/2017/08/a-dream-about-this-article/#more-2234