Live to WIN!
guardian Snow
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race indeed all run,
but one receives the prize? Run in such a way as to obtain it.
Ask yourself, does the person who is winning the race suddenly stop
before the finish to kick the person in last place? One of my
favorite songs says,
Runner by Manfred Mann
“Through the night, through the dawn
Behind you another runner is born
Don't look back, you've been there
Feel the mist as your breath hits the air
And it's underneath the moonlight
Passing some
Still your heart beats in the moonlight
Like a drum
And you will run your time
A shooting star across the sky
And you will surely cross the line
To pass on the flame” -
Not everybody is going to win this race but most certainly, you can be
on that winning team that comes to the truth and recognize your own
divine nature. Why do so many claim to “live in sin” which is a
present tense, self defeating negative statement of their own state?
If you are forgiven and made whole then if you are truly “one with the
spirit” you will no longer retain those old ways of thought and
perfection is within your reach but first, YOU MUST BELIEVE.
Mat 12:37 “For by your words you shall be declared righteous, and by
your words you shall be declared unrighteous.”
Words are awesome power and contain within them the very “mystery” of
life. I speak of a mystery not because it is any secret revelation
given to me but because so few understand that in reality science
shows your faith, your belief and your works can and do make you whole
and strong. As you believe, it will be done said the Messiah.
Mat 8:13 And Yehoshua said to the captain, “Go, and as you have
believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that
hour.
So many people actually demonstrate a lack of faith and these people
do not need to be corrected or put down or even argued against because
this is not the Messianic doctrine of peace.
Simply put, if I spent all my days like some going around telling you
about all the false witnesses in the world, I would never truly obey
my Masters teachings to spread the Good News that the power of life,
forgiveness and even healing come to those who know, obey and keep to
the teachings of Torah.
I am a spiritual being with a body and connection to my source of
being, connects me to an infinite power that when understood grants me
the ability of source energy that Hebrew Scriptures names, YAHWEH. If
I spoke of the marvelous things that have manifested in my life by his
name, most would ridicule me and trample me down as a dog but this
understanding is clear, when we follow the true teachings of the Torah
and the spiritual giants of our Masters the prophets, conflict
disappears and we become one with the will of Yahweh and that source
and I say now that whether for good or evil, what we focus on will
manifest according to our belief.
So many have become slave to a dogma that says they must continue to
live in transgression of the Torah? Why would you believe you are
anything less that PERFECTION? Why believe you are unable to keep the
Torah when at it’s very core of the doctrine it says, “Do what is
right” and “Love Elohim, your neighbor and the stranger who sojourns
amongst you” for we were once strangers ourselves but now are called
to be Priest of the most high EL YAHWEH.
Mat 17:20 And Yehoshua said to them, “Because of your unbelief, for
truly, I say to you, if you have belief as a mustard seed, you shall
say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it shall move.
And no matter shall be impossible for you.”
If NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE, you are only demonstrating unbelief when you
confirm these teachings that you continue to live in sin for in it,
you deny that you are forgiven and made whole by your belief and now
should do the works accordingly as our Messiah taught, guarding ALL
that he commanded and living a life by the examples that he left for
us to follow after… only then do we understand what he taught us to
“take up your stake” and to “follow me” for in it, we understand that
we are equals with him as one brother is to another.
Mat 12:48 But He answering, said to the one who spoke to Him, “Who is
My mother and who are My brothers?”
Mat 12:49 And having stretched out His hand toward His taught ones, He
said, “See My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the
heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”
YAHWEH is not a respecter of your sex and this applies to woman as
well, that no person is left behind in this race to the finish… that
UNITY is by SPIRIT and the power of OUR WORD and so, carry your torch
and be that light, that beacon on the hill and recognize YOUR
righteousness in Yahweh and do what is right to win the race, keep
running underneath the moonlight and blaze your trail that others may
follow YOU in example. If not for yourself, do it for your children…
your friends, your family… you know what is right but first you must
believe that you are capable and put away self defeating thoughts of
imperfections and inability and truly adopt that euphemist that
President Obama made so famous that says, “Yes, WE CAN!” We can, when
we do what is right and connect to that infinite source to envision
what should be for the Torah is a Universal way of life, not a curse
to be shunned or feared.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not
be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.1 Footnote: 1See 7:12.
Establish the Torah in your life through belief because until you
actually work it by putting your beliefs into action, you have simply
gone into unbelief in your own ability to do what is right.
Mat 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to
them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets.”
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Be thou the rainbow in the storms of life. The evening beam that
smiles the clouds away, and tints tomorrow with prophetic ray.
Lord Byron
Please come post your comments at
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
A public forum for those who believe.
“You’re the voice” by John Farnham
We have
The chance to turn the pages over
We can write what we want to write
We gotta make ends meet, before we get much older
We're all someone's daughter
We're all someone's son
How long can we look at each other
Down the barrel of a gun?
Chorus:
You're the voice, try and understand it
Make a noise and make it clear
Oh-o-o-o, whoa-o-o-o!
We're not gonna sit in silence
We're not gonna live with fear
Oh-o-o-o, whoa-o-o-o!
This time
We know we all stand together
With the power to be powerful
Believing, we can make it better
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
guardian Snow
belief system is wrong.. Rather, I say to my Christian brother, “If
your belief system works for you, I am happy for you but I have no
desire to share your understanding, so instead of arguing with me
about what you believe, go put your faith into practice.”
Jas 2:14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief
but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.
A hypocrite is basically an actor playing a character, like in a movie
they act out and I have to wonder why would people bother to argue
with me when I make it clear, I have no desire for their belief? They
think they must prove me wrong but I believe my faith and I am
independent of their good opinion and so I speak accordingly which is
not to say I am beyond discussion but that I have certain truths I
know are well founded. The reason they do is because we have been
raised into a conflict view of society that evolves from capitalism.
That which I am against can only weaken me and so I am taught by
scriptures to oppose nothing of other peoples beliefs but rather to
simply go forth and speak the good news of Yehoshua Messiah and his
deity, YAHWEH.
I have made my fair share of mistakes but I hold to this truth that
many reject, ALL of you are sons of the most high, this is the
teaching of the scriptures, not a new age cult.
Psa 82:4 Rescue the poor and needy; Deliver them from the hand of the
wrong.
Psa 82:5 They do not know, nor do they understand, They walk about in
darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
Psa 82:6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the
Most High.
You, YOU have purpose and everything that you need will be given to
you in the right time according to the plan of the Almighty YAHWEH.
You are a divine creature, a spirit encased within a body.
I am dogmatic in my understanding for myself but you may not share my
understanding and that is fine for everything has a purpose, even your
disagreement with me but… I will not seek to impose my understanding
on others, rather, I speak the Good News and those who care to share
with me, will do so.
My understanding says that my Trinity based Christian brothers have
placed an incorrect focus on the Messiah’s death they call, “The
passion” rather than on his life, his ministry and his word. They
exist in the conflict view of that says one belief must dominate and
make subject all others and in this we see the makings of religious
wars, flamers and those who think this is an argument rather than a
statement.
“The conflict view asserts that only one strain of doctrine can assume
the commanding heights, and so all the progress of groups lower on the
faith chain depends on unseating others from power. Secular groups can
hold this view, believing that religion must be vanquished from the
earth, and so too with religious groups that believe secularism must
be destroyed.
This is why we hear about "breaking barriers" rather than encouraging
opportunity, about policies rather than freedom, about power rather
than entrepreneurship. For the media writing about all this, it is the
only intellectual model they have in mind. The conflict view of
society was taught to them in college and is reinforced daily in the
press. Also, unless you have some clear filter in mind, it seems like
the conflict view is supported by plenty of evidence, given that the
rise of the state has actually generated social antagonism where none
should exist.”
Llewellyn H. Rockwell
The common theme is, “Christ is the only savior” and yet, even the
Messiah himself never made such an absurd statement. In fact as my
brother, Yehoshua taught:
Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the
works that I do he shall do also. And greater works than these he
shall do, because I go to My Father.”
That you have the POTENTIAL to do even greater works than the Messiah
himself and to you who believe NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. I ask you now,
who is demonstrating the belief of the Messiah? Why would your works
be greater? Because the potential is so much greater now in this lost
and confused world to reach out to your brother, your neighbor or even
a stranger and lend a helping hand and do what is right in exercising
the power of your belief.
I do not say your belief is wrong but of what use is it by the
limitations you have placed? You have denied the very teachings of
Christ himself of your unlimited, divine nature!
Mar 10:27 And looking at them, YEHOSHUA said, “With men it is
impossible, but not with Elohim, for with Elohim all is possible.”
If you are WITH ELOHIM and all is possible then why can’t you be your
brothers savior? Did not the Messiah teach that we too should take up
our cross and follow him? Is he not our example?
Joh 13:15 “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have
done to you.
How often do Christians tell me that I deny John when I see it from
the opposite perspective? They cling to the same tired dogma of a
life of sin and limiting beliefs, afraid to step up and simply do what
is right, to be LIKE CHRIST. Until you believe in your own magic, you
will never manifest it. Do you not have the ability to heal people
and saves lives… why not? This ability is given to men…
Mat 9:8 And when the crowds saw it, they marvelled and praised Elohim
who had given such authority to men.
Are you not a son of the most high EL YAHWEH?
Psa 82:6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And ALL of you are sons of the
Most High.
Were you NOT created in his image?
Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to
Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the
birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over *all the earth*
and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.”
Did not Elohim give man IN THE BEGINNING authority over ALL THE
EARTH? I ask you, who denies the word? The disagreement resides in a
dogma and belief system and if you live in sin, this is your belief
for only in Yahweh does one have righteousness by his forgiveness and
so as the Messiah taught:
I do not speak of “my ability” but the ability of YAHWEH in which
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. I am unable until I acknowledge first that I
must align with the will of the source first.
Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge,
and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but
the desire of the Father who sent Me.
Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Joh 12:28 “Father, esteem Your Name.” Then a voice came from the
heaven, “I have both esteemed it and shall esteem it again.”
Allow your heavenly Father to esteem his name in YOU again…
Mar 16:17 “And these signs shall accompany the ones who believe: In My
Name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with renewed
tongues,
guardian Snow
YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…
> > Now the ministry of
> > weakness say, “You can’t be righteous” “Jesus is our righteousness
> > because he kept the Torah perfectly so you have no need to be
> > righteous. If you only believe you will not die but have eternal
> > life.”
>
> > Now I ask you, where is the motivation to guard the words of Yahweh?
> > Aren’t we in fact negotiating a reason to continue a life of sin just
> > like the serpent in the garden?
>
> We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
> be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
> you.
No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
the example set before you by the Messiah.
Joh 13:15 “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have
done to you.
Joh 13:16 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than
his master, nor is an emissary greater than he who sent him.
Joh 13:17 “If you know these teachings, blessed are you if you do
them.
“If you do them” that is as the master taught. So often we see it
over and over again, people making up concepts that are not taught by
the Messiah. Let’s be clear, at no point in the words of the Messiah
did he ever say, “go and sin for I will be your righteousness”.
Mat 5:48 “Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
perfect.”
Doesn’t anybody find it interesting that “our Father is in heaven”
while the Messiah was on earth? Clearly they have a disconnect
between the deity of Yahweh and the Son, Yehoshua.
>The motivation to do the will of God is knowing Yeshua. Knowing
> Jesus changes you, actually, recreates or regenerates you.
Any support for this in the teachings of the Messiah? Trinity
Christians are locked into an IMAGE they worship that is unchanging in
a version of scriptures that has clearly been tampered with and refuse
to recognize this because it means that as an institution, they are
practicing false worship and nobody wants to recognize their own
error, that they too have been deceived into being part of the church
of Babylon.
> We come to
> know the living Jesus when we believe, causing us cry out to him in
> sincere faith for salvation. In an instant we are translated from the
> kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
I would not deny the potential of this but clearly you do not
demonstrate the FRUIT of this.
> And as he promised he
> comes to abide in us. He is the one with the motivation. He is the
> life of the Vine. If you are not in the Vine, you have no life in you.
Life is in the spirit, NOT THE FLESH by his own teachings. Elohim is
SPIRIT that you deny on a daily bases in your fleshly worship and your
practice of worshiping the outward appearance.
> Yeshua said:
>
> "I am the True Vine and you are the branches".
Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the gardener.
You really should quote the passage you pretend to know.
> Therefore to have the life of YHWH flowing through you, you must be in
> the True Vine.
No, you must be planted by the gardner…
Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
>This life flows with righteousness. It brings us to
> life as new creatures. There is then a new man who is alive in Christ,
> and there was the old man who was dead in sin. The old man was fallen
> and unable to even understand this. He will always ask, "What
> motivates you to do righteousness if you trust Christ to be your
> righteousness?". To him it is not logical because he cannot see the
> kingdom of God, as Yeshua said,
You should have believed him when he taught you the way of
righteousness instead of disregarding all that he taught and said that
instead of you being righteous, he is it for you… a teaching he never
promoted and you should reconsider.
> "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
>
> The old man will always say that trusting Christ is weakness,
Having the belief of Yehoshua is true. Christ simply means anointed
one and is not a name but a title that is represented of many in the
scriptures including Moses and still I see you pay no attention to his
teachings.
>when in
> fact it is the very weakness of surrender to the will of the Father
> that makes us strong,
So why do you not obey the TORAH OF YAHWEH if it were truly “the will
of the Father” that you sought but instead you preach as Satan saying,
“Go, continue to sin and Ye shall not die.” The reality of what the
Messiah taught you was:
Mat 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into
the reign of the heavens.
Another harsh reality is that MANY will come to him as you do with the
works of lawlessness and he will tell you that you never believed him
or the messenger he sent to you…
Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
from Me, you who work lawlessness!
>for in our weakness His strength is brought to
> bear against the enemy of our souls.
You would not be weak if you had the STRENGTH OF ELOHIM in your
motivation and in this you show your evidence of following Lucifer.
Isa 14:10 “All of them respond and say to you, ‘Have you also become
as weak as we? Have you become like us?
> It is always in Him we trust. Not
> in horses - in the Lord our God as it says:
>
> "Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will
> remember the name of YHWH our Elohim".
Had you trusted him you would have believed him when he said to enter
into life, guard the commands but you clearly DO NOT BELIEVE the
Messiah Yehoshua.
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
commands.”
This is not my teaching but his that you disregard and pretend to pay
homage to scriptures that say by HIS KNOWLEDGE you would be saved… no
instead you go searching the scriptures for those rare passages that
might agree with your unbelief. A clear example follows:
> What are the chariots and the horses? These are things we trust in
> that we perceive to have strength, such as our own righteousness,
> which is in fact unable to save and will fail us, it is as the
> scripture says "as filthy rags", as it says in Isaiah 64:6
> It also says we should take hold of YHWH and call upon his Name in
> Isaiah 64:7
>
> " And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up
> himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and
And in your willful disobedience you call upon “HeZues” Almighty and
practice deception to support your dogma but I have not said to call
upon my own strength and righteousness… but only in YHWH are we
righteous, NOT JESUS who was a prophet of the Most High YAHWEH.
Luk 1:76 “And you, child, shall be called prophet of the Most High,
for you shall go before the face of YAHWEH to prepare His ways,
Luk 1:77 to give knowledge of deliverance to His people, by the
forgiveness of their sins,
It is YAHWEH that forgives sins and he did this long before the
Messiah died on the cross besides the fact that David, when he
committed murder and adultery with his neighbors wife, did not
sacrifice.
Isa 33:6 And He shall be the trustworthiness of your times, a wealth
of deliverance, wisdom and knowledge. The fear of YAHWEH– that is His
treasure.
Hos 6:6 “For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the
knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
You deny his knowledge, deny his teachings and then claim inspiration
that is laughable to me and I don’t tell you this to condemn you but
rather to inform you of another competing idea that you have
rejected.. one that says you MUST OBEY they words of Yehoshua and not
just talk and say like the hypocrites but be a doer of the word.
I really do wish you well in your walk of faith but your walk is not
my walk… I will not just pay lip service to the teachings and then
disregard them in the next breath talking about wishful thinking that
says “I believed” but did not follow his teachings… I did not need to
keep his example because he was the perfect human sacrifice murdered
by the Romans for me… it’s the most ridiculous religion I’ve come out
from and promise never to return to.. I have repented from the
diversionary dogma that says, “I can lead a sinful life and claim to
be a new creature and never actually have to demonstrate that I really
did believe… YOUR FAITH WILL NOT SAVE YOU.
Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also
believe – and shudder!
Jas 2:20 But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief
without the works is dead?
singin4free
YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…
Snow said in his previous post:
> > Now the ministry of
> > weakness say, “You can’t be righteous” “Jesus is our righteousness
> > because he kept the Torah perfectly so you have no need to be
> > righteous. If you only believe you will not die but have eternal
> > life.”
> > Now I ask you, where is the motivation to guard the words of Yahweh?
> > Aren’t we in fact negotiating a reason to continue a life of sin just
> > like the serpent in the garden?
singin4free then said:
> We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
> be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
> you.
Snow's new post begins here;
> > No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
> > the example set before you by the Messiah.
singin4free replies:
If he is only an example, then he would not have had to die. The
scriptures are clear that he laid down his life willingly, no man took
it from him. He had the authority to lay it down and he had the
authority to take it up again. Therefore, if all he was doing was
setting an example, he need not have sweat blood in the garden,
knowing what was coming, and praying for that cup to pass from him.
Yet he knew it was the will of the Father for him to die, so he
accepted it, and willingly gave his life. We know it was done for our
sins because John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God that takes
away the sin of the world, and because Isaiah 53 tells us that he was
wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our inquities, and by
his stripes we were healed. It is the clearest message of the Bible.
Jesus died for the ungodly to redeem us (buy us back) from sin and
death.
Snow said:
> > Joh 13:15 “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have
> > done to you.
> > Joh 13:16 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than
> > his master, nor is an emissary greater than he who sent him.
> > Joh 13:17 “If you know these teachings, blessed are you if you do
> > them.
> > “If you do them” that is as the master taught. So often we see it
> > over and over again, people making up concepts that are not taught by
> > the Messiah. Let’s be clear, at no point in the words of the Messiah
> > did he ever say, “go and sin for I will be your righteousness”.
> > Mat 5:48 “Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
> > perfect.”
singin4 free said:
I have not said to go and sin. So why do you insist on repeating that?
You force me to repeatedly say that grace is not a license for sin. No
matter how many times I say it or prove it, you continue to repeat
that false accusation, which happens to be the same one they used
against Paul. Grace is not a cloak for sin. It is the power that
renews and brings life. You have testified that in your past you
bought into such a teaching, that is, you are saying at some time you
believed you could be under grace and freely sin. Well, I am sorry
that happened to you but it is not the gospel. The gospel of grace
leads us to repentance and godly living, but not because of fear. We
live for God out of a thankful heart. We may stumble, but we have the
sure mercies of David. This is not the same thing as presumption. It
does say that by their fruits you shall know them. If a person is a
child of God, he will bear fruit. Yet we will not know who those
others are until we stand before God, who is the final judge. Many who
are last shal be first, and the first shall be last. And many will be
saved that we would have sent to hell, because God is the one who
knows the heart. That said, it is by grace that we are saved, not by
works of righteousness that we have done. Jesus was full of grace and
truth. He came to give that to us who believe. As Moses lifted up the
serpent in the desert, so when he was lifted up on the cross, he began
to draw all men to him. Like those who looked upon the serpent and
were healed, so those who believe in the Son of God are saved from
their sins. Without him we are lost. Without him we are hopelessly
lost in this world that is passing away. Without him we are without
hope and all things are vanity, as the Preacher said. But with him is
hope, and life and love. In him are all the blessings of God and all
God's promises are Yes! And Amen! No he is more than an example,
though indeed he is the best of all examples, because greater love has
no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. If we are
in him we keep his commandments because we love him. But we love him
because he first loved us. We would not be his had we not been drawn
to him by the Father. So we can take absolutely no credit for any
rightoues deeds that we do and expect nothing. All the praise goes to
the Son who bore our sins in his own body on the tree that we might
live.
Snow said:
> > Doesn’t anybody find it interesting that “our Father is in heaven”
> > while the Messiah was on earth? Clearly they have a disconnect
> > between the deity of Yahweh and the Son, Yehoshua.
Snow quotes singin4free's prior post:
>The motivation to do the will of God is knowing Yeshua. Knowing
> Jesus changes you, actually, recreates or regenerates you.
Snow then says:
> > Any support for this in the teachings of the Messiah?
singin4free answers:
There is plenty and I could post pages of scripture. But there is no
need. John 3:16 is enough for the moment.
Snow said:
> >Trinity Christians are locked into an IMAGE they worship that is unchanging in
> >a version of scriptures that has clearly been tampered with and refuse
> >to recognize this because it means that as an institution, they are
> >practicing false worship and nobody wants to recognize their own
> >error, that they too have been deceived into being part of the church
> >of Babylon.
singin4free says:
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and
the Word WAS God...
and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
This is the first statement in the Gospel of John, which clearly tells
us that Yeshua is the Word of God made manifest in the flesh, who
existed from eternity with Him and WAS Him. You can dance around this
verse all you want but you cannot make it go away. The Father, the Son
and the Holy Spirit are shown in scripture to be God, El, Elohim,
YHWH, the One True Creator. The Word cannot be separated from the
Father who begot Him any more than your thoughts could be separated
from your mind. I say this cautiously knowing that I do not fully
understand the relationship and nature of the Father and the Son. It
is a simplistic way to point out that you do not see what God has
revealed to us through His Word, His Son, and by His Spirit. These
three are one.
singin4free is quoted as previously saying:
> We come to
> know the living Jesus when we believe, causing us cry out to him in
> sincere faith for salvation. In an instant we are translated from the
> kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Snow then says:
> I would not deny the potential of this but clearly you do not
> demonstrate the FRUIT of this.
singin4free says:
I'm not sure why you would say this, but it really doesn't matter how
you perceive my fruit.What matters is what God wants.
Snow quotes singin4free's prior post:
> And as he promised he
> comes to abide in us. He is the one with the motivation. He is the
> life of the Vine. If you are not in the Vine, you have no life in you.
Snow then says:
>> Life is in the spirit, NOT THE FLESH by his own teachings. Elohim is
>> SPIRIT that you deny on a daily bases in your fleshly worship and your
>> practice of worshiping the outward appearance.
singin4free replies:
Jesus Christ is risen and has ascended to the Father. Is that not
spiritual? And has sent the Holy Spirit to us from heaven. Is that not
spiritual? He was I the beginning WITH God. Was that not spiritual? He
WAS God. Is that not spiritual? What is the name of the Spirit that we
receive from heaven? It is the Spirit of Christ.
Pe 1:11 searching for what, or what manner of time, made clear within
them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the
glories that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us,
they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who
have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven;
which things the angels desire to look into.
And also he is called the Spirit of God. These are two names for the
same Spirit., because these three are one.
1Pe 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed,
because the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you. Truly according
to them, He is blasphemed, but according to you He is glorified.
Therefore your argument that worship of the Messiah is idolatry and
worship of an image does not hold water.
> Singin4free is quoted as previosuly saying:
> Yeshua said:
> "I am the True Vine and you are the branches".
Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the gardener.
You really should quote the passage you pretend to know.
> Therefore to have the life of YHWH flowing through you, you must be in
> the True Vine.
Snowe then says:
>> No, you must be planted by the gardner…
>> Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
>> Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
>> Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
>> if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
singin4free replies:
This is not an argument against what I said, because I did not say
that we need not be planted by the gardner. I simply said we must be
in the True Vine. And since you say we must be planted by the
gardener, you affirm that we cannot make ourselves righteous, but we
are dependent on him who gives us righteousness by planting us in the
Vine, who's life is our righteousness.
singin4free is quoted as previosly saying:
>This life flows with righteousness. It brings us to
> life as new creatures. There is then a new man who is alive in Christ,
> and there was the old man who was dead in sin. The old man was fallen
> and unable to even understand this. He will always ask, "What
> motivates you to do righteousness if you trust Christ to be your
> righteousness?". To him it is not logical because he cannot see the
> kingdom of God, as Yeshua said,
Snow then says:
>>You should have believed him when he taught you the way of
>>righteousness instead of disregarding all that he taught and said that
>>instead of you being righteous, he is it for you… a teaching he never
>>promoted and you should reconsider.
sing4free replies:
Who said I disregard his teachings? I do not disregard them even
though you accuse me of that. I also do not disregard the Law. But I
know that no matter how hard I try, without him living his life
through me, I am unable to keep his commandments, and not me only, but
all, for we are all sinners and without hope of righteousness outside
of the grace that is in Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Savior.
Why kick against the goad? Let him cleanse you of all unrighteousness,
as he is faithful and just to do if you will come to him.
Snow quotes from singin4free's prior post:
> "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
> The old man will always say that trusting Christ is weakness,
Then Snow says:
>>Having the belief of Yehoshua is true. Christ simply means anointed
>>one and is not a name but a title that is represented of many in the
>>scriptures including Moses and still I see you pay no attention to his
>>teachings.
Snow quotes singin4free:
>when in
> fact it is the very weakness of surrender to the will of the Father
> that makes us strong,
Snow then says:
> >So why do you not obey the TORAH OF YAHWEH if it were truly “the will
> >of the Father” that you sought but instead you preach as Satan saying,
> >“Go, continue to sin and Ye shall not die.”
singin4free replies:
Well, there you go again, with that false accusation about license to
sin, and not obeying the commandments. That is not what I believe and
that is never what I have said about the gospel. But I do know that
even if I sin, I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
Righteous One, and the promise if the sure mercies of David. I know
that I have eternal life. Do you? John says you should if you
believe.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the
name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God.
Does that motivate me to sin? Of course not! It makes me want to
please God. But if I stumble, I know I can confess my sin and he is
faithful and just to forgive me. And I know that he will never cast me
off. How could sinning make me happy since I am now living in the
kingdom of light? Oh, I know that it is possible to sin. But it is not
natural for a child of God to do so, and God knows who we are. You
would like it to be self effort that saves you, but it will never be.
You cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps to live a holy life.
You have to be in Yeshua to be able to do that, and his life in you is
your hope of glory.
Snow said:
> > The reality of what the
> >Messiah taught you was:
> >Mat 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds
> >that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into
> >the reign of the heavens.
> > Another harsh reality is that MANY will come to him as you do with the
> >works of lawlessness and he will tell you that you never believed him
> >or the messenger he sent to you…
> >Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
> >from Me, you who work lawlessness!
singin4free answers:
Has your righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees? Let
me tell you – not unless it is the righteousness of Yeshua in you.
That righteousness does exceed theirs. Because their righteousness was
an outward appearance, and for a show, but the righteousness that
comes from God and is imparted to us, just as it was to Abraham, is
God's righteousness and is greater than the outward shows of men. As
it says, “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him fro
righteousness.” Does this mean he did not works? Of course not! He
showed us his faith by his actions. But his actions were the outward
manifestation of his faith. It is God who looks upon the heart and
sees if you have faith. Others can try to judge your actions, but only
God is able to know the truth about you. As James said, faith without
works is dead, and as Paul said, faith works by love. So these are two
inseparable things, just like the godhead is inseparable. People argue
faith and works not realizing you cannot separate them, and they argue
against the trinity for the same reasons.
singin4free said:
>for in our weakness His strength is brought to
> bear against the enemy of our souls.
Snow said:
> You would not be weak if you had the STRENGTH OF ELOHIM in your
> motivation and in this you show your evidence of following Lucifer.
> Isa 14:10 “All of them respond and say to you, ‘Have you also become
> as weak as we? Have you become like us?
singin4free answers:
It IS the strength of Elohim that we have by Yeshua's life in us. It
is Yeshua who is the strength of Elohim in the believer.
Singin4free said previously:
> It is always in Him we trust. Not
> in horses - in the Lord our God as it says:
> "Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will
> remember the name of YHWH our Elohim".
Snow replied:
> > Had you trusted him you would have believed him when he said to enter
> > into life, guard the commands but you clearly DO NOT BELIEVE the
> > Messiah Yehoshua.
> > Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
> >except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
> >commands.”
> > This is not my teaching but his that you disregard and pretend to pay
> > homage to scriptures that say by HIS KNOWLEDGE you would be saved… no
> > instead you go searching the scriptures for those rare passages that
> > might agree with your unbelief. A clear example follows:
singin4free replies:
In all that we have said, I have never said do not keep the
commandments, those are your words. Second, you pervert Isaiah 53,
which tells us that he bore our sins and the chastisement of our peace
was upon him. His knowledge is to know this very thing. That you must
have faith in his atoning blood to be saved.
Snow quotes singin4free's prior post:
> What are the chariots and the horses? These are things we trust in
> that we perceive to have strength, such as our own righteousness,
> which is in fact unable to save and will fail us, it is as the
> scripture says "as filthy rags", as it says in Isaiah 64:6
> It also says we should take hold of YHWH and call upon his Name in
> Isaiah 64:7
> " And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up
> himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and
Snow now summarizes a good deal of his personal religion:
singin4free replies:
Of course it is Yahweh who forgives sins. And Yeshua is Yahweh, being
the Word of Yahweh who was in the beginning with Yahweh and WAS
Yahweh. If you want to obey Yahweh, you must come to Jesus. That is
the gospel sent out with the apostles. It is faith in him that saves
you. Any Jesus who is not the Savior who gave his life for sinners and
rose again, is indeed a fictional Jesus.
singin4free
YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…
Snow said in his previous post:
> > Now the ministry of
> > weakness say, “You can’t be righteous” “Jesus is our righteousness
> > because he kept the Torah perfectly so you have no need to be
> > righteous. If you only believe you will not die but have eternal
> > life.”
> > Now I ask you, where is the motivation to guard the words of Yahweh?
> > Aren’t we in fact negotiating a reason to continue a life of sin just
> > like the serpent in the garden?
singin4free then said:
> We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
> be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
> you.
Snow's new post begins here;
No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
the example set before you by the Messiah.
If he is only an example, then he would not have had to die. The
scriptures are clear that he laid down his life willingly, no man took
it from him. He had the authority to lay it down and he had the
authority to take it up again. Therefore, if all he was doing was
setting an example, he need not have sweat blood in the garden,
knowing what was coming, and praying for that cup to pass from him.
Yet he knew it was the will of the Father for him to die, so he
accepted it, and willingly gave his life. We know it was done for our
sins because John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God that takes
away the sin of the world, and because Isaiah 53 tells us that he was
wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities, and by
his stripes we were healed. It is the clearest message of the Bible.
Jesus died for the ungodly to redeem us (buy us back) from sin and
death.
Joh 13:15 “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have
done to you.
Joh 13:16 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than
his master, nor is an emissary greater than he who sent him.
Joh 13:17 “If you know these teachings, blessed are you if you do
them.
“If you do them” that is as the master taught. So often we see it
over and over again, people making up concepts that are not taught by
the Messiah. Let’s be clear, at no point in the words of the Messiah
did he ever say, “go and sin for I will be your righteousness”.
Mat 5:48 “Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
perfect.”
I have not said to go and sin. So why do you insist on repeating that?
You force me to repeatedly say that grace is not a license for sin. No
matter how many times I say it or prove it, you continue to repeat
that false accusation, which happens to be the same one they used
against Paul. Grace is not a cloak for sin. It is the power that
renews and brings life. You have testified that in your past you
bought into such a teaching, that is, you are saying at some time you
believed you could be under grace and freely sin. Well, I am sorry
that happened to you but it is not the gospel. The gospel of grace
leads us to repentance and godly living, but not because of fear. We
live for God out of a thankful heart. We may stumble, but we have the
sure mercies of David. This is not the same thing as presumption. It
does say that by their fruits you shall know them. If a person is a
child of God, he will bear fruit. Yet we will not know who those
others are until we stand before God, who is the final judge. Many who
are last shall be first, and the first shall be last. And many will be
saved that we would have sent to hell, because God is the one who
knows the heart. That said, it is by grace that we are saved, not by
works of righteousness that we have done. Jesus was full of grace and
truth. He came to give that to us who believe. As Moses lifted up the
serpent in the desert, so when he was lifted up on the cross, he began
to draw all men to him. Like those who looked upon the serpent and
were healed, so those who believe in the Son of God are saved from
their sins. Without him we are lost. Without him we are hopelessly
lost in this world that is passing away. Without him we are without
hope and all things are vanity, as the Preacher said. But with him is
hope, and life and love. In him are all the blessings of God and all
God's promises are Yes! And Amen! No he is more than an example,
though indeed he is the best of all examples, because greater love has
no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. If we are
in him we keep his commandments because we love him. But we love him
because he first loved us. We would not be his had we not been drawn
to him by the Father. So we can take absolutely no credit for any
righteous deeds that we do and expect nothing. All the praise goes to
the Son who bore our sins in his own body on the tree that we might
live.
Doesn’t anybody find it interesting that “our Father is in heaven”
while the Messiah was on earth? Clearly they have a disconnect
between the deity of Yahweh and the Son, Yehoshua.
>The motivation to do the will of God is knowing Yeshua. Knowing
> Jesus changes you, actually, recreates or regenerates you.
Snow said:
> Any support for this in the teachings of the Messiah?
singin4free answers:
There is plenty and I could post pages of scripture. But there is no
need. John 3:16 is enough for the moment.
Snow said:
> Trinity Christians are locked into an IMAGE they worship that is unchanging in
> a version of scriptures that has clearly been tampered with and refuse
> to recognize this because it means that as an institution, they are
> practicing false worship and nobody wants to recognize their own
> error, that they too have been deceived into being part of the church
> of Babylon.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and
the Word WAS God...
and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
This is the first statement in the Gospel of John, which clearly tells
us that Yeshua is the Word of God made manifest in the flesh, who
existed from eternity with Him and WAS Him. You can dance around this
verse all you want but you cannot make it go away. The Father, the Son
and the Holy Spirit are shown in scripture to be God, El, Elohim,
YHWH, the One True Creator. The Word cannot be separated from the
Father who begot Him any more than your thoughts could be separated
from your mind. I say this cautiously knowing that I do not fully
understand the relationship and nature of the Father and the Son. It
is a simplistic way to point out that you do not see what God has
revealed to us through His Word, His Son, and by His Spirit. These
three are one.
singin4free said:
> We come to
> know the living Jesus when we believe, causing us cry out to him in
> sincere faith for salvation. In an instant we are translated from the
> kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Snow said:
> I would not deny the potential of this but clearly you do not
> demonstrate the FRUIT of this.
I'm not sure why you would say this, but it really doesn't matter how
you perceive my fruit. What matters is what God wants.
> And as he promised he
> comes to abide in us. He is the one with the motivation. He is the
> life of the Vine. If you are not in the Vine, you have no life in you.
Life is in the spirit, NOT THE FLESH by his own teachings. Elohim is
SPIRIT that you deny on a daily bases in your fleshly worship and
your
practice of worshiping the outward appearance.
Jesus Christ is risen and has ascended to the Father. Is that not
spiritual? And has sent the Holy Spirit to us from heaven. Is that not
spiritual? He was I the beginning WITH God. Was that not spiritual? He
WAS God. Is that not spiritual? What is the name of the Spirit that we
receive from heaven? It is the Spirit of Christ.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ
which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the
sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us,
they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who
have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven;
which things the angels desire to look into.
And also he is called the Spirit of God. These are two names for the
same Spirit., because these three are one.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye for
the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is
evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Therefore your argument that worship of the Messiah is idolatry and
worship of an image does not hold water.
> Singin4free said:
> Yeshua said:
> "I am the True Vine and you are the branches".
Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the gardener.
You really should quote the passage you pretend to know.
> Therefore to have the life of YHWH flowing through you, you must be in
> the True Vine.
No, you must be planted by the gardner…
Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
This is not an argument against what I said, because I did not say
that we need not be planted by the gardner. I simply said we must be
in the True Vine. And since you say we must be planted by the
gardener, you affirm that we cannot make ourselves righteous, but we
are dependent on him who gives us righteousness by planting us in the
Vine, who's life is our righteousness.
singin4free said:
>This life flows with righteousness. It brings us to
> life as new creatures. There is then a new man who is alive in Christ,
> and there was the old man who was dead in sin. The old man was fallen
> and unable to even understand this. He will always ask, "What
> motivates you to do righteousness if you trust Christ to be your
> righteousness?". To him it is not logical because he cannot see the
> kingdom of God, as Yeshua said,
You should have believed him when he taught you the way of
righteousness instead of disregarding all that he taught and said
that
instead of you being righteous, he is it for you… a teaching he never
promoted and you should reconsider.
Who said I disregard his teachings? I do not disregard them even
though you accuse me of that. I also do not disregard the Law. But I
know that no matter how hard I try, without him living his life
through me, I am unable to keep his commandments, and not me only, but
all, for we are all sinners and without hope of righteousness outside
of the grace that is in Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Savior.
Why kick against the goad? Let him cleanse you of all unrighteousness,
as he is faithful and just to do if you will come to him.
> "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
> The old man will always say that trusting Christ is weakness,
Having the belief of Yehoshua is true. Christ simply means anointed
one and is not a name but a title that is represented of many in the
scriptures including Moses and still I see you pay no attention to
his
teachings.
>when in
> fact it is the very weakness of surrender to the will of the Father
> that makes us strong,
Snow said:
> So why do you not obey the TORAH OF YAHWEH if it were truly “the will
> of the Father” that you sought but instead you preach as Satan saying,
> “Go, continue to sin and Ye shall not die.”
Well, there you go again, with that false accusation about license to
sin, and not obeying the commandments. That is not what I believe and
that is never what I have said about the gospel. But I do know that
even if I sin, I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
Righteous One, and the promise if the sure mercies of David. I know
that I have eternal life. Do you? John says you should if you
believe.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the
name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God.
Does that motivate me to sin? Of course not! It makes me want to
please God. But if I stumble, I know I can confess my sin and he is
faithful and just to forgive me. And I know that he will never cast me
off. How could sinning make me happy since I am now living in the
kingdom of light? Oh, I know that it is possible to sin. But it is not
natural for a child of God to do so, and God knows who we are. You
would like it to be self effort that saves you, but it will never be.
You cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps to live a holy life.
You have to be in Yeshua to be able to do that, and his life in you is
your hope of glory.
Snow said:
> The reality of what the
> Messiah taught you was:
> Mat 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds
> that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into
> the reign of the heavens.
> Another harsh reality is that MANY will come to him as you do with the
> works of lawlessness and he will tell you that you never believed him
> or the messenger he sent to you…
> Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
> from Me, you who work lawlessness!
singin4free answers:
Has your righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees? Let
me tell you – not unless it is the righteousness of Yeshua in you.
That righteousness does exceed theirs. Because their righteousness was
an outward appearance, and for a show, but the righteousness that
comes from God and is imparted to us, just as it was to Abraham, is
God's righteousness and is greater than the outward shows of men. As
it says, “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him fro
righteousness.” Does this mean he did not works? Of course not! He
showed us his faith by his actions. But his actions were the outward
manifestation of his faith. It is God who looks upon the heart and
sees if you have faith. Others can try to judge your actions, but only
God is able to know the truth about you. As James said, faith without
works is dead, and as Paul said, faith works by love. So these are two
inseparable things, just like the godhead is inseparable. People argue
faith and works not realizing you cannot separate them, and they argue
against the trinity for the same reasons.
singin4free said:
>for in our weakness His strength is brought to
> bear against the enemy of our souls.
Snow said:
> You would not be weak if you had the STRENGTH OF ELOHIM in your
> motivation and in this you show your evidence of following Lucifer.
> Isa 14:10 “All of them respond and say to you, ‘Have you also become
> as weak as we? Have you become like us?
singin4free answers:
It IS the strength of Elohim that we have by Yeshua's life in us. It
is Yeshua who is the strength of Elohim in the believer.
Singin4free said previously:
> It is always in Him we trust. Not
> in horses - in the Lord our God as it says:
> "Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will
> remember the name of YHWH our Elohim".
Snow replied:
> > Had you trusted him you would have believed him when he said to enter
> > into life, guard the commands but you clearly DO NOT BELIEVE the
> > Messiah Yehoshua.
> > Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
> >except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
> >commands.”
> > This is not my teaching but his that you disregard and pretend to pay
> > homage to scriptures that say by HIS KNOWLEDGE you would be saved… no
> > instead you go searching the scriptures for those rare passages that
> > might agree with your unbelief. A clear example follows:
singin4free replies:
In all that we have said, I have never said do not keep the
commandments, those are your words. Second, you pervert Isaiah 53,
which tells us that he bore our sins and the chastisement of our peace
was upon him. His knowledge is to know this very thing. That you must
have faith in his atoning blood to be saved.
Snow quotes singin4free's prior post:
> What are the chariots and the horses? These are things we trust in
> that we perceive to have strength, such as our own righteousness,
> which is in fact unable to save and will fail us, it is as the
> scripture says "as filthy rags", as it says in Isaiah 64:6
> It also says we should take hold of YHWH and call upon his Name in
> Isaiah 64:7
> " And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up
> himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and
Snow now summarizes a good deal of his personal religion:
Of course it is Yahweh who forgives sins. And Yeshua is Yahweh, being
guardian Snow
Truly you are more treasured then diamonds. Thank you for attempting
to share your understanding with me singin4 free.
I disagree with your belief system and hope that it continues to work
for you but because I recognize you as a divine creation of Elohim, it
is my job to encourage you to see this divine nature with in yourself
to be LIKE CHRIST.
1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Messiah also suffered
for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
Keep up the good works my friend and continue in your encouragement of
your brothers.
Isa 41:10 ‘Do not fear, for I am with you. Do not look around, for I
am your Elohim. I shall strengthen you, I shall also help you, I shall
also uphold you with the right hand of My righteousness.’
Isa 41:11 “See, all those who raged against you are ashamed and blush,
they are as non-existent. And the men who strive with you perish.
Isa 41:12 “You seek them but do not find them, those who struggle with
you. Those who fight you are as non-existent, as naught.
Isa 41:13 “For I, YAHWEH your Elohim, am holding your right hand,
saying to you, ‘Do not fear, I shall help you.’
Take care and be blessed. Please know that you are loved and
appreciated even if we disagree my friend, I am still grateful for
you.
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul.
Wayne Dyer
Exo 20:7 “You do not bring the Name of 'Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [translated
Yahweh] your Elohim to naught, for Yahweh does not leave the one
unpunished who brings His Name to naught.
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
Mark Twain
Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/Jubilees.pdf
Book of Jubilees
I believe that being successful means having a balance of success
stories across the many areas of your life. You can't truly be
considered successful in your business life if your home life is in
shambles.
Zig Ziglar
guardian Snow
YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…
singin4free said:
> We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
> be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
> you.
Snow's new post begins here;
> > No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
> > the example set before you by the Messiah.
singin4free replies:
If he is only an example, then he would not have had to die. The
scriptures are clear that he laid down his life willingly, no man
took
it from him.
Snow:
Correct. He did NOT have to die. Just like the story of Abraham
sacrificing Isaac, YAHWEH provided a proper sacrifice for forgiveness
of sins, which is NOT his SON, NOT HUMAN SACRIFICE and not making his
own son into some type of Animal! When Yehoshua is called a lamb, it
is because that was his nature, not that he was an animal sacrifice.
Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
If we are speaking of the difference between what you believe and what
I believe, any time that you say, “can’t” you are aligned with the
spirit that says, “all things are impossible” and so when you say, “We
can’t be righteous … without”, you have denied the spirit of
righteousness that is YAHWEH.
More important is the fact that you can recognize YAHWEH never changes
according to the scriptures and you recognize that YAHWEH is
compassionate and forgiving. The implication that this compassionate
and forgiving nature relies on human sacrifice goes against everything
the Torah teaches us about the nature of Yahweh.
Is YAHWEH a forgiving deity? If your answer is Yes, then you must
recognize that what is “unconditional” does not rely on human
sacrifice and has been since the beginning.
One of the issues of having received the word of scriptures at the
same time is that modern readers forget CONTINUITY of the scriptures
being delivered by different men over thousands of years.
Isaiah predates Yehoshua Messiah by at least 600 years and more likely
700 years and forgiveness was the doctrine of the “anointed” one then,
which was Isaiah. Christian disconnection forgets that “Christ” simply
means anointed. They forget that MANY people of scriptures were
“Christ”.
Exo 28:41 “And you shall put them on Aharon your brother and on his
sons with him, and shall anoint them, and shall ordain them, and shall
set them apart, and they shall serve as priests to Me.
So, while Christians continually look to anointed Yehoshua, they
disregard the fact that they are Elohim and created in the image of
the Almighty and a Son of the Most High EL also but not the “only
begotten son” which is Yehoshua’s unique distinction. What happens in
my opinion is that they fail to recognize the authority that is
granted to them and by their unbelief in the Messiah who taught that
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE, they disconnect with spirit. Those who
believe this dogma start off the dialogue by attempting to teach what
they can’t do and seek to impose this brain washing/ mind virus on
other people not recognizing they are declaring themselves unrighteous
by their words as the Messiah spoke of:
Mat 12:37 “For by your words you shall be declared righteous, and by
your words you shall be declared unrighteous.”
Declare yourself unrighteous and guess what… as you believe, it shall
be done to you even in your state of unbelief… believe that you are in
the hands of Elohim and directed by his spirit, so be it but what you
continue to do is show me evidence of disbelief and again.. I do not
tell you this to condemn you my friend but to inform you so that you
can learn to break this pattern and recognize the flaw of your system
of assigning authority to those who teach contrary to the truth of
Yehoshua because you have become by my belief system one of them.
Now you have stated that with your deity, you are righteous by his
“passion” but in this you have disconnected with being ONE with that
righteousness in the spirit and claiming it for yourself in YAHWEH.
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul. Conflict cannot survive without your participation. If you
change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.
Linda Lee
He makes false allegations about what you believe and have said
because he is an habitual liar who consistently attacks Christ
(denying he was God incarnate, denying he was the Son of God, and
denying he was the only Saviour) and attacks believers by lying about
what they say and believe and by saying believers do not follow the
teachings of Christ.
Snowjob says: "Christians refuse to acknowledge that Messiah was only
a prophet with the spirit of Yahweh". -
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f15309b6dab272c6
He is as sly as the serpent; he preaches an antichrist message and
attempts to use misinterpretation of the sayings of the Messiah to
defeat believers. He has devoted his life to bringing about the fall
of the Christian church and spends much time daily posting his twisted
Scripture and antichrist message and his false compliments designed to
silence those posting in opposition to his antichrist message.
God warned about such as him that use flattery in order to deceive
others:
Pro 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up
deceit within him;
Pro 26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven
abominations in his heart.
Pro 26:26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be
shewed before the whole congregation.
Pro 26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth
a stone, it will return upon him.
Pro 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a
flattering mouth worketh ruin.
You should be aware of his methods. And you should not take at face
value any definitions he provides you (he often falsifies them) nor
any Scriptures he refers to (as he consistently twists and
misinterprets them to suit his purposes of being an antichrist); you
should always double-check any info he's provided. Following is what I
posted to him this morning:
<quote>
"Snowjob, the reason people refute your false antichrist message here
has nothing to do with their not following the Messiah's teachings.
People refute your antichrist message here because you are posting in
a religious newsgroup designed for DEBATE. You choose to ignore that
and operate under the insanity you can use it without contradiction
for your own purposes. I don't suppose you know what 'debate' is
either, but because you are ignorant, you cannot understand the nature
of the media you've chosen, instead you are under the delusion you can
intimidate and lie and use the Messiah's teachings to manipulate
others into silence so you can use this newsgroup as your private
podium for your antichrist false teachings.
I realize nothing anyone can say will prevent you from continuing to
be a compulsive liar and hypocrite, but know that there is also
nothing you can say that will prevent people from arguing your false
antichrist message in these newsgroups as they were designed for
discussion and debate, not designed to be the podium for false
preachers like yourself.
You use your constant misinterpretations of the Scriptures and of the
following teachings of the Messiah (whom you deny is anything other
than a prophet) to try to silence Christians in these newsgroups so
that you can preach your antichrist message here unhindered:
Matt. 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".
This verse does NOT mean you should be allowed to preach your
antichrist message without contradiction here unrevealed as what it
is. Those who contradict you are leaving you alone. You ARE left
alone; you are not 'leading' any believers to follow your antichrist
teachings.
Mat 10:14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words,
when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your
feet".
The idiom ("shake off the dust of your feet") in this verse means not
to retain anything of the beliefs of those in that house during your
walk in life. People who disagree with your antichrist message here
are not keeping any of your dirt with them and are not retaining any
of your false teachings.
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with
what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote
out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.
These verses are talking about issuing punishments for perceived sins.
Who here has issued any punishment for you? No one. What measures have
been taken here to punish you, Snowjob? None. Discerning your false
message and identifying it as what it is, is not judging you. You have
not been judged and condemned to any punishment here.
Matt. 5:44, “But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that
curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you”
This verse is talking about preaching the gospel of Christ when it
says to “love your enemies, bless them” and is referring to 'helping
the poor' (the needy) and obeying the Ten Commandments when it says
“do good to them that hate you”; it is not talking about allowing
people like you to continue to attempt to lead people into the
damnation of Hell with your antichrist false teachings and your false
allegations believers do not follow their own Saviour's teachings
because they openly reject your false antichrist message.
Matt. 5:44, “But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that
curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you”
This verse is talking about preaching the gospel of Christ when it
says to “love your enemies, bless them” and is referring to 'helping
the poor' (the needy) and obeying the Ten Commandments when it says
“do good to them that hate you”; it is NOT talking about allowing
people like you to continue to attempt to lead people into the
damnation of Hell with your antichrist false teachings and your false
allegations that believers do not follow their own Saviour's teachings
because they openly reject and refute your false antichrist message.
Mat 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves".
Yahashua` the Messiah, God incarnate as the only Saviour (whom you
falsely teach was "only a prophet" - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f15309b6dab272c6
), taught his believers to be "wise as serpents" (be aware of the evil
methods and of the depths of deception that evil men stoop to) and as
"harmless as doves" (to do no violence).
People that recognize your antichrist teachings as evil and argue with
you in refuting your false teachings are not disobeying the teachings
of the Messiah." <end quote>
singin4free, I notice here Snowjob is attempting to lead you to
believe he thinks the Messiah is the Son of God by referring to the
deity of God and "the Son" (although saying only "the Son", which
could refer to 'Son of Man', another title of the Messiah meaning a
mortal). He does not believe Christ was the Son of God, as Snowjob
says here: "Christians refuse to acknowledge that Messiah was only a
prophet with the spirit of Yahweh". - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f15309b6dab272c6
> singin4free is quoted as previosly saying: ...
>
> read more »
singin4free
> On Nov 2, 6:25 am, singin4free:
> YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…
>
> singin4free said:> We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
> > be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
> > you.
>
> Snow's new post begins here;> > No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
> > > the example set before you by the Messiah.
>
> singin4free replies:
> If he is only an example, then he would not have had to die. The
> scriptures are clear that he laid down his life willingly, no man
> took
> it from him.
>
> Snow:
> Correct. He did NOT have to die. Just like the story of Abraham
> sacrificing Isaac, YAHWEH provided a proper sacrifice for forgiveness
> of sins, which is NOT his SON, NOT HUMAN SACRIFICE and not making his
> own son into some type of Animal! When Yehoshua is called a lamb, it
> is because that was his nature, not that he was an animal sacrifice.
That, I am sad to say is one of the biggest lies I have ever read on
Usenet. There could be only one reason John the Baptist called Yeshua
the Lamb of God. This is the imagery of the the Passover Lamb. I doubt
that the Pharisees thought he had the nature of a lamb, more like a
lion, and the buyers and the sellers in the temple who felt his whip
probably would have thought that was one ferocious lamb if the imagery
was that kind. But no, it wasn't. It is so obvious that this is the
Passover Lamb, the substitute for the first born of every one in
Israel when the Angel of Death came through. Its blood was on the
lintels and the door posts: the shape of a cross. Yeshua is our
Passover. The Passover was a foreshadowing of Yeshua. That is why it
was given to Israel to remember for all generations, so when the Lamb
that takes away the sin of the world came, the light bulb would go on
and they would know why all that has happened to them has happened.
And in Yeshua the wall of separation between the Jews and the gentiles
is broken down, and all true believers in the Messiah are one people
of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit, the family of God. This is the
peculiar people about whcih Peter said:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy
nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of
him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people
of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
> Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
> is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
>
> If we are speaking of the difference between what you believe and what
> I believe, any time that you say, “can’t” you are aligned with the
> spirit that says, “all things are impossible” and so when you say, “We
> can’t be righteous … without”, you have denied the spirit of
> righteousness that is YAHWEH.
>
> More important is the fact that you can recognize YAHWEH never changes
> according to the scriptures and you recognize that YAHWEH is
> compassionate and forgiving. The implication that this compassionate
> and forgiving nature relies on human sacrifice goes against everything
> the Torah teaches us about the nature of Yahweh.
>
Yahweh has never condoned sin. His judgment falls and people die. Is
that not told about in the Torah? Ask those who died in the flood. Ask
the first born sons of the Egyptians. Ask Sodom and Gomorrah. Ask why
He told them to put bells on the robe of the priests who entered the
Holy of Holies. He is the one who ordered animal sacrifice, but not
for all time. It was for the time before the Messiah. He planned for
the New Covenant and foretold it by the prophets. Now Jesus has
provided the once-for-all sacrifice for us and the New Covenant in his
own blood.
> Is YAHWEH a forgiving deity? If your answer is Yes, then you must
> recognize that what is “unconditional” does not rely on human
> sacrifice and has been since the beginning.
>
Yahweh is forgiving but he is also just.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
But God has provided the sacrifice Lamb.
> One of the issues of having received the word of scriptures at the
> same time is that modern readers forget CONTINUITY of the scriptures
> being delivered by different men over thousands of years.
>
> Isaiah predates Yehoshua Messiah by at least 600 years and more likely
> 700 years and forgiveness was the doctrine of the “anointed” one then,
> which was Isaiah. Christian disconnection forgets that “Christ” simply
> means anointed. They forget that MANY people of scriptures were
> “Christ”.
It is clear that Isaiah was not the anointed one he himself wrote
about. The Ethiopian eunuch was told this very thing by Philip:
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the
prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And
he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was
led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his
shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who
shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, *** pray thee, of
whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? ***
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and ***began at the same
scripture, and preached unto him Jesus***.
> Exo 28:41 “And you shall put them on Aharon your brother and on his
> sons with him, and shall anoint them, and shall ordain them, and shall
> set them apart, and they shall serve as priests to Me.
>
> So, while Christians continually look to anointed Yehoshua, they
> disregard the fact that they are Elohim and created in the image of
> the Almighty and a Son of the Most High EL also but not the “only
> begotten son” which is Yehoshua’s unique distinction. What happens in
> my opinion is that they fail to recognize the authority that is
> granted to them and by their unbelief in the Messiah who taught that
> NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE, they disconnect with spirit. Those who
> believe this dogma start off the dialogue by attempting to teach what
> they can’t do and seek to impose this brain washing/ mind virus on
> other people not recognizing they are declaring themselves unrighteous
> by their words as the Messiah spoke of:
>
Nothing is impossible with God is true. But you have tried to make the
spirit a force that can be manipulated by man. That is consistent with
the concepts you teach about saving yourself by your own
righteousness. No. you do not control a force. Everything comes from
God, by faith. You seem to think of the spirit as a form of energy
that we can tap into. That is New Age thinking and it is false. We do
not manipulate the Spirit of God. We ask Him and He answers. We trust
Him and He imparts spiritual gifts at His choosing for His purposes.
We believe, and we can stand still and see the salvation of the Lord,
and do many mighty works through His name, though these deeds are not
to our credit but His. But we have no power at all apart from Him. If
we are in Him, He can work through us. But it is not we who work, it
is always Him.
> Mat 12:37 “For by your words you shall be declared righteous, and by
> your words you shall be declared unrighteous.”
>
> Declare yourself unrighteous and guess what… as you believe, it shall
> be done to you even in your state of unbelief… believe that you are in
> the hands of Elohim and directed by his spirit, so be it but what you
> continue to do is show me evidence of disbelief and again.. I do not
> tell you this to condemn you my friend but to inform you so that you
> can learn to break this pattern and recognize the flaw of your system
> of assigning authority to those who teach contrary to the truth of
> Yehoshua because you have become by my belief system one of them.
>
> Now you have stated that with your deity, you are righteous by his
> “passion” but in this you have disconnected with being ONE with that
> righteousness in the spirit and claiming it for yourself in YAHWEH.
<quote from Gill's Commentary on Matthew 12>
"...and by thy words thou shalt be condemned: according to these, the
sentence of justification, or of condemnation, will be pronounced; as
these will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a
state of grace and righteousness: thus for instance, a man that has
spoken for Christ, and has freely confessed that all his hope of
justification before God, and acceptance with him, is solely upon the
account of the righteousness of Christ imputed; such a man will be
declared a justified man according to the tenor of his own words: on
the other hand, a man that has spoken hard speeches against Christ,
and his righteousness; declaring he has no dependence on it, expects
no justification by it; he will be convinced of these ungodly sayings,
and out of his own mouth will be condemned. Some have thought, that
Christ "
<end quote>
guardian Snow
> He is the one who ordered animal sacrifice, but not
> for all time. It was for the time before the Messiah. He planned for
> the New Covenant and foretold it by the prophets. Now Jesus has
> provided the once-for-all sacrifice for us and the New Covenant in his
> own blood.
Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the
day that I brought them out of the land of Mitsrayim, about matters of
burnt offerings or slaughterings.
Jer 7:23 “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice,1
and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the
ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’
Footnote: 1Aḇraham did so (Gen. 26:5), and יהוה again laid down this
condition for Yisra’ĕl to be His people (Ex. 19:5), and the same
applies to us (Jn. 3:36, Rom. 6:16, Heb. 4:11, Heb. 5:9, Rev. 22:14).
singin4free
This is obviously a rebuke for their idolatry if you read the context.
If it is to be interpreted as God saying he does not accept any
sacrifice at all, then it contradicts the Law, which it cannot if the
scripture is true. He does accept sacrifice from those who are
obedient. It is the same as it was for Cain and Abel. Abel's sacrifice
was accepted and it was a blood offering. But as always the
prerequisite for accepted sacrifice is the condition of the heart. The
sacrifice of Yeshua was acceptable because it was made by a perfect
sinless individual - God himself. John 3:16.
guardian Snow
Hos 6:6 “For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the
knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and
not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
but sinners.”
Mar 2:17 And hearing this, Yehoshua said to them, “Those who are
strong have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not
come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”
singin4free
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation;
guardian Snow
You should complete the passage:
Rev 5:9 And they sang a renewed song, saying, “You are worthy to take
the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and have
redeemed us to Elohim by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and
people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and made us ***sovereigns and priests to our Elohim, and
***we shall reign upon the earth.”1 Footnote: 1Dan. 7:18-27.
This does not disagree with the offering of the cup that is his
blood.
Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
You continue with circular logic insisting this is false, so who is it
that has denied the Good News? It does not say the blood of you being
slain by Romans.
Psa 51:17 The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart
broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.
guardian Snow
>The
> sacrifice of Yeshua was acceptable because it was made by a perfect
> sinless individual - God himself. John 3:16.
I would point out to you that John 3 does not say what you think it
reads, in my opinion. I will explain this other view to you but I
realize you do not except my point of view.
Joh 3:13 “And no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came
down from the heaven – the Son of Aḏam.
I would point out that the first distinction is here in his statement
that he is the "Son of Man/Adam". YAHWEH is the creator of man, not
the Son.
Joh 3:14 “And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,
This next verse goes on to explain why the Messiah was "lifted up" and
makes the comparison to the serpent in the wilderness, which as you
know, had zero to do with forgiveness of sins and everything to do
with being A SYMBOLIC demonstration of the power of Elohim. This idea
of the passion being a demonstration of the power of belief is upheld
…
Joh 3:15 so that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 “For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-
forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.
If you believe this passage, it does not say anything about removing
sin, it simply states that He is lifted up so that you would believe
when the miracle of the resurrection takes place, men would know and
witness the power of Elohim.
The fact that the Messiah was in fact DEAD, means that he could not of
his own ability raised himself, lest we say the dead are not dead and
we deny the very fact that scriptures emphatically state that he gave
his spirit into his Father's hands.
Luk 23:46 And crying out with a loud voice, YEHOSHUA said, “Father,
into Your hands I commit My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed
His last. "
And John does say that he was DEAD.
Joh 21:14 This was now the third time YEHOSHUA was manifested to His
taught ones after He was raised from the dead.
The passage says, "He was raised" from the dead by an external power,
not that he raised himself from the dead. Luke in Acts agrees:
Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of
Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of YEHOSHUA Messiah of Natsareth, whom you
impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands
before you, healthy.
Again.. another account that specifically points to an external power
of Elohim that raised him from the dead. This pretty much blows your
Trinity and "incarnate" theories out the window but of course you will
refuse to recognize these simple truths... that scriptures do not
agree with you dogmatic mistranslation.
So... I have nor denied anything in the Good News and have in fact
encouraged you to recognize what it actually teaches... that the
Messiah died so that other would believe in the power of Elohim to
raise men of from the dead.
You would have us believing that the dead raise themselves but dead is
DEAD and I have to wonder how long you will deny the Good News in
favor of your dogma! Do you deny he was DEAD? Certainly that idea
denies the scriptures!
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul.
singin4free
If there was no cross, the cup would be a remembrance of nothing. The
cup is symbolic of his real blood. You are reaching to the farthest
extremes to erase the blood of Yeshua the most precious of all things,
by which indeed we are able to be washed from our sins and then become
the sons of God , born again of the Spirit and kings and priests to
our God.
singin4free
> On Nov 5, 3:46 pm, singin4free <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The
> > sacrifice of Yeshua was acceptable because it was made by a perfect
> > sinless individual - God himself. John 3:16.
>
> I would point out to you that John 3 does not say what you think it
> reads, in my opinion. I will explain this other view to you but I
> realize you do not except my point of view.
>
> Joh 3:13 “And no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came
> down from the heaven – the Son of Aḏam.
>
> I would point out that the first distinction is here in his statement
> that he is the "Son of Man/Adam". YAHWEH is the creator of man, not
> the Son.
>
a second nature, the nature of man in order to redeem him through his
death. He did not give up his nautre as God though. He took on a
second nature, and that is why he is called both the Son of God and
the Son of Man. You cannot reconcile this without affirming that
Yeshua is both fully God and fully man. As we see the scripture says:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and
ever: a scepter of
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels
for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and
blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through
death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the
devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their
lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but
****he took on him the seed of Abraham.***
> Joh 3:14 “And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
> so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,
>
> This next verse goes on to explain why the Messiah was "lifted up" and
> makes the comparison to the serpent in the wilderness, which as you
> know, had zero to do with forgiveness of sins and everything to do
> with being A SYMBOLIC demonstration of the power of Elohim. This idea
> of the passion being a demonstration of the power of belief is upheld
> …
>
> Joh 3:15 so that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but
> possess everlasting life.
> Joh 3:16 “For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-
> forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but
> possess everlasting life.
>
> If you believe this passage, it does not say anything about removing
> sin, it simply states that He is lifted up so that you would believe
> when the miracle of the resurrection takes place, men would know and
> witness the power of Elohim.
>
You have erred greatly, not interpreting scripture with scripture and
inventing your own interpretation by departing from the teaching of
the apostles. We know exactly what John 3 means because of what all
the apostles have said, for example:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with
corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation
received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without
blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the
world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
And in the cup of communion which symbolizes what he was about to do
at the Last Supper he himself told us.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed
for many for the remission of sins.
And no, you cannot usurp that verse for yourself by placing the wrong
interpretation upon it to render it harmless to yourself and your
false teachings. It is a precious verse for all who have been washed
in the blood of the Lamb who gave himself for us that we might live.
Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. You cannot steal from true
believers in the Messiah the precious real blood of the Lamb, or the
blessed remembrance of it.
> The fact that the Messiah was in fact DEAD, means that he could not of
> his own ability raised himself, lest we say the dead are not dead and
> we deny the very fact that scriptures emphatically state that he gave
> his spirit into his Father's hands.
>
> Luk 23:46 And crying out with a loud voice, YEHOSHUA said, “Father,
> into Your hands I commit My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed
> His last. "
>
> And John does say that he was DEAD.
>
The Father did raise Yeshua from the dead, but you have no idea what
the relationship of the Father and the Son is, and how they were One
in the Holy Spirit in this action. These three are One.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my
life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I
have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.
> Joh 21:14 This was now the third time YEHOSHUA was manifested to His
> taught ones after He was raised from the dead.
>
> The passage says, "He was raised" from the dead by an external power,
> not that he raised himself from the dead. Luke in Acts agrees:
>
> Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of
> Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of YEHOSHUA Messiah of Natsareth, whom you
> impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands
> before you, healthy.
>
> Again.. another account that specifically points to an external power
> of Elohim that raised him from the dead. This pretty much blows your
> Trinity and "incarnate" theories out the window but of course you will
> refuse to recognize these simple truths... that scriptures do not
> agree with you dogmatic mistranslation.
>
> So... I have nor denied anything in the Good News and have in fact
> encouraged you to recognize what it actually teaches... that the
> Messiah died so that other would believe in the power of Elohim to
> raise men of from the dead.
>
> You would have us believing that the dead raise themselves but dead is
> DEAD and I have to wonder how long you will deny the Good News in
> favor of your dogma! Do you deny he was DEAD? Certainly that idea
> denies the scriptures!
Of course his body was raised from the dead, Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah
being the incorruptible Word of God who was in the beginning with God
and WAS God. The grave simply could not hold him. He died willingly,
he laid down his own life, and just as the will of the Father caused
him to be obedient and take on a body in the first place in the body
of Mary, so, the will of the Father caused him to take up his life
again after he had died. He has all power in heaven and on earth. All
power. Not part of the power. All of it.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my
life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I
have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should
give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
guardian Snow
> > You continue with circular logic insisting this is false, so who is it
> > that has denied the Good News? It does not say the blood of you being
> > slain by Romans.
>
> > Psa 51:17 The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart
> > broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.
>
> If there was no cross, the cup would be a remembrance of nothing. The
> cup is symbolic of his real blood. You are reaching to the farthest
> extremes to erase the blood of Yeshua the most precious of all things,
> by which indeed we are able to be washed from our sins and then become
> the sons of God , born again of the Spirit and kings and priests to
> our God.
Ultimately, you must fabricate things that you believe from things
that aren't written while I support my belief directly from the text
of the scriptures.
In the end, you can't answer the question of who raised Jesus from the
dead, since he was the one that was DEAD. The cup and the wine are
symbolic of the WRATH of YAHWEH which is why it is poured out for
forgiveness of sins.
Jer 25:14 ‘For they too shall be enslaved by many nations and great
sovereigns. And I shall repay them according to their deeds and
according to the works of their hands.’ ”
Jer 25:15 For thus said YAHWEH Elohim of Yisra’ĕl to me, “Take this
wine cup of wrath from My hand, and make all the nations, to whom I
send you, drink it.
It was all an entirely spiritual act that Christians never seem to
grasp hold of because they assume things that aren't written but what
is written is that:
Gen 49:11 “Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey’s colt to
the choice vine, he washed his garments in wine, and his robes in the
blood of grapes.
The blood of grapes is what the Messiah washes his garments in, not
human blood. From Genesis to Revelation I can confirm my
understanding:
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Master, you know.” And he said to me,
“These are those coming out of the great distress, having washed their
robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
You on the other hand have to make up things that it doesn't say... I
wish you well in your dogma but please understand that I disagree...
and I have scriptures to support my belief. I respect your belief but
please do not continue to post to me assuming that I must bow down to
what your dogma teaches because respectfully, another point of view
can be critically supported.
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul.
guardian Snow
> The Word of God who was in the beginning with God and WAS God, took on
> a second nature,
blah, blah, blah...
Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”
Joh 6:63 “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit
at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life.
Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word AND
believes in HIM WHO SENT ME possesses everlasting life, and DOES NOT
come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
You have not heard his word or believed in him who sent the Messiah
and have attempted to make him speak of himself.
Joh 7:28 Yehoshua therefore cried out in the Set-apart Place, teaching
and saying, “YOU both KNOW ME, and you know where I am from. And I
have NOT COME OF MYSELF, but HE WHO SENT ME is true, whom YOU DO NOT
KNOW.
He did NOT COME OF HIMSELF!
Joh 12:49 For I have NOT spoken of MYSELF; but the Father WHICH SENT
ME, HE GAVE me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should
speak.
He DID NOT speak of HIMSELF.
Joh 7:16 Yehoshua answered them, and said, My doctrine is NOT MINE,
but HIS THAT SENT ME.
He DID NOT teach his own doctrine
Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter.
Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
You make him a liar! Stop it and stop posting to me... I believe we
are NOT TO RECEIVE THE MESSIAH BUT THE ONE WHO SENT HIM!
Joh 12:44 Then Yehoshua cried out and said, “He who believes in Me,
believes NOT IN ME but in Him who sent Me.
Mar 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name
receives Me. And whoever receives Me, RECEIVES ME NOT, but the One WHO
SENT ME.”
singin4free
> On Nov 6, 12:19 am, singin4free <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You continue with circular logic insisting this is false, so who is it
> > > that has denied the Good News? It does not say the blood of you being
> > > slain by Romans.
>
> > > Psa 51:17 The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart
> > > broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.
>
> > If there was no cross, the cup would be a remembrance of nothing. The
> > cup is symbolic of his real blood. You are reaching to the farthest
> > extremes to erase the blood of Yeshua the most precious of all things,
> > by which indeed we are able to be washed from our sins and then become
> > the sons of God , born again of the Spirit and kings and priests to
> > our God.
>
> Ultimately, you must fabricate things that you believe from things
> that aren't written while I support my belief directly from the text
> of the scriptures.
>
> In the end, you can't answer the question of who raised Jesus from the
> dead, since he was the one that was DEAD. The cup and the wine are
> symbolic of the WRATH of YAHWEH which is why it is poured out for
> forgiveness of sins.
>
His body was dead but his Spirit lived on, and when he was finished
with his three days in the belly of the earth he again took up his
body. He took it up as he said he would:
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I
lay down my life for the sheep.
Here is Jesus telling us his death is for his sheep. His real death,
not symbolic death.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be
one fold, and one shepherd.
Here, you hear Jesus telling us that the Gentiles and JEws would be
one people of God united by faith in him.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my
life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I
have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.
And there you see that Jesus laid down his life willingly and took it
up again because he has the power to do so. Just because his body had
died does not mean the Word of God who was in the beginning with
Yahweh and WAS Yahweh died spiritually. He in fact had a mission
during that three days in the tomb. He preached to the captive souls
who died in the flood as Peter tells us:
1Pe 3:18a For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for
the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh,
Here we see that Christ died for our sins to give us righteousness (he
was just we were unjust, i.e. he was righteous and we were not).
1Pe 3:18b:19 but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and
preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering
of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
And here, we see that Jesus was alive in the Spirit during the three
days in the tomb, and that he preached to those who had died in the
flood. So, he was not dead spiritually and was able to take up his
body again when the time came. That Bible says God raised him up. That
is not contradictory. All the fullness of the godhead dwelt in Yeshua.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.
> Jer 25:14 ‘For they too shall be enslaved by many nations and great
> sovereigns. And I shall repay them according to their deeds and
> according to the works of their hands.’ ”
> Jer 25:15 For thus said YAHWEH Elohim of Yisra’ĕl to me, “Take this
> wine cup of wrath from My hand, and make all the nations, to whom I
> send you, drink it.
>
> It was all an entirely spiritual act that Christians never seem to
> grasp hold of because they assume things that aren't written but what
> is written is that:
>
> Gen 49:11 “Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey’s colt to
> the choice vine, he washed his garments in wine, and his robes in the
> blood of grapes.
>
> The blood of grapes is what the Messiah washes his garments in, not
> human blood. From Genesis to Revelation I can confirm my
> understanding:
>
> Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Master, you know.” And he said to me,
> “These are those coming out of the great distress, having washed their
> robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
>
> You on the other hand have to make up things that it doesn't say... I
> wish you well in your dogma but please understand that I disagree...
> and I have scriptures to support my belief. I respect your belief but
> please do not continue to post to me assuming that I must bow down to
> what your dogma teaches because respectfully, another point of view
> can be critically supported.
You say I have made things up, but let the reader view all the facts.
guardian Snow
Which he already said was so that they believed in John 3:13-16 when
they see YHWH's power.
singin4free
> On Nov 6, 12:51 am, singin4free <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Word of God who was in the beginning with God and WAS God, took on
> > a second nature,
>
> blah, blah, blah...
>
> Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
> in spirit and truth.”
> Joh 6:63 “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit
> at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life.
>
Yeshua said: "Receive ye the Holy Spirit". He is the giver of the
Spirit.
> Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word AND
> believes in HIM WHO SENT ME possesses everlasting life, and DOES NOT
> come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
>
> You have not heard his word or believed in him who sent the Messiah
> and have attempted to make him speak of himself.
>
You left out a verse. The Father wants you to honor the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the
Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which
hath sent him.
What is meant by honor here? It says EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER.
That means to honor Yeshua with the *same* honor as you honor the
Father. That means worship, adoration, obedience and faith in him. No,
Yeshua did not speak of himself but the mission of the Holy Spirit is
to glorify him. and his works testify of who he is. The Son glorifies
the Father, The Spirit glorifies Yeshua. These three are One.
> Joh 7:28 Yehoshua therefore cried out in the Set-apart Place, teaching
> and saying, “YOU both KNOW ME, and you know where I am from. And I
> have NOT COME OF MYSELF, but HE WHO SENT ME is true, whom YOU DO NOT
> KNOW.
>
> He did NOT COME OF HIMSELF!
>
This means he came to do the will of the Father, that he was sent by
the Father. But it does not mean he is not the Word who was in the
beginning with Yahweh and WAS Yahweh. In fact he was there when the
world was made because the Father made it through him, i.e. the Word.
He is eternally one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
> Joh 12:49 For I have NOT spoken of MYSELF; but the Father WHICH SENT
> ME, HE GAVE me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should
> speak.
>
> He DID NOT speak of HIMSELF.
>
> Joh 7:16 Yehoshua answered them, and said, My doctrine is NOT MINE,
> but HIS THAT SENT ME.
>
> He DID NOT teach his own doctrine
>
This does not mean the Son is not God. It means the Son is
positionally subject to the Father because he is the Son of Man,
though he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, being the Word
who was in the beginning with God and WAS God, he humbled himself and
came to redeem us by taking on the nature of man. Yet he never gave up
his nature as God. So this is God in Christ reconciling the world to
himself.
> Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter.
> Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
>
> You make him a liar! Stop it and stop posting to me... I believe we
> are NOT TO RECEIVE THE MESSIAH BUT THE ONE WHO SENT HIM!
>
What you believe is not the issue but what you are trying to teach
others.
There is no contradiction in receiving Yeshua and receiving the
Father, since they are One. As it says, we are to receive Yeshua:
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
> Joh 12:44 Then Yehoshua cried out and said, “He who believes in Me,
> believes NOT IN ME but in Him who sent Me.
> Mar 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name
> receives Me. And whoever receives Me, RECEIVES ME NOT, but the One WHO
> SENT ME.”
This means that receiving Yeshua is the same as receiving God which is
what I just said above. We receive not JUST Yeshua but the Father. We
are to honor the Father and the Son with the same honor, because they
are One.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the
Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which
hath sent him.
I
> The Word of God who was in the beginning with God and WAS God
Nope!
The philosophical term "logos" was in wide use with Jews before
John's gospel was even thought of.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Karen Armstrong "A History of God - From Abraham to the Present: the
4000-year Quest for God" ( Vintage; London:1993)
The author of the book of Proverbs .. suggested that Wisdom *[Hokhmah] was
the masterplan that God had devised when he had created the world and, as
such, was the first of his creatures. ... Wisdom was not a divine being,
however, but is specifically said to have been created by God. She is
similar to the 'glory' *[kavod] of God described by the priestly authors ...
In the second century BCE, Jesus Ben Sirah ... painted a similar portrait of
Wisdom. He makes her satnd up in the Divine Council and sing her own
praises: she had come forth from the mouth of the most High as the divine
Word *[later logos] by which God had created the world; she is present
everywhere in creation but has taken up permanent residence among the people
of Israel. *[Later Christians would have Wisdom / logos reside only in Jesus
of Nazareth.] Like the 'glory' of Yahweh, the figure of Wisdom was s symbol
of God's activity in the world. ... about 50 BCE. In the Wisdom of Solomon,
a Jew of Alexandria ... warned Jews to resist the seductive Hellenistic
culture around them and to remain true to their own traditions ... Writing
in Greek, he also personified Wisdom (Sophia) and argued that it could not
be separated from the Jewish God: [Sophia] is the breath of the power of
God, pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; hence nothing impure can
find a way into her.She is a reflection of eternal light, untarnished mirror
of God's acxtive power, image of his goodness. This passage would also be
extremely important to Christians when they came to discuss the status of
Jesus. The Jewish
author, however, simply saw Sophia as an aspect of the unknowable God who
has adapted himself to human understanding. She is
God-as-he-has-revealed-himself-to-man, the human perception of God, which
was mysteriously distinct from the full reality of God which would always
elude our understanding. pp.81-82 *[This is an important passage. Reread
John 1 in the light of this section. The next step in the puzzle of how
Jesus became God is Philo .... ]
.. the eminent Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (c.30 BCE - 45 BCE)
... a practising Jew ... [made] an important distinction between God's
essence (ousia), which is entirely incomprehensible, and his activities in
the world, which he called his 'powers' (dynameis) or 'energies'
(energeiai). ... God communicates through his 'powers' which seem equivalent
to Plato's divine forms ... Philo sees them as emanating from God ... Two of
these powers were especially importnat. Philo called them the Kingly power,
which reveals God in the order of the universe *[compare with Paul in Romans
1] , and the Creative power, whereby God reveals himself in the blessing he
bestows upon humanity. *[Compare also with Paul's "giving of gifts"] ...
Sometimes Philo speaks oif God's essential being (ousia) flanked by the
Kingly and Creative powers in a kind of trinity. *[BINGO!] When he
interprets the story of Yahweh's visit to Abraham at Mamre with the two
angels, for example, he argues that this is an allegorical presentation of
God's ousia - He Who Is - with the two senior powers. pp. 83
*[Reinterpreted - Ousia , Kingly power / Creative power = Father, Son and
Holy Spirit]
... his theory of the divine Logos. Like the Wisdom writers, Philo imagined
that God had formed a masterplan (logos) of creation ...Sometimes he
suggests that Logos is one of the powers; at other times he seems to think
that it is higher than the powers, the highest idea of God that humans can
attain. pp. 83-84
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I
> Joh 5:23
There is almost nothing in John's gospel that was ever said by the historic
time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
Geza Vermes, Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford University does
not even use John's gospel in reconstructing the gospel of the historic
Jewish Jesus in his "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus" (Penguin:2003). He
mainly uses the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Try finding the SAME passages in the earliest and most authentic gospel -
Mark's gospel (written 65 - 80 CE and whose source MAY have been the apostle
Peter). You WON'T find the same items in Mark's gospel as in John's gospel
(written 90 - 120 CE by someone who had NEVER met the historic time / space
Jesus of Nazareth and who certainly was NOT the apostle John.)
See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com
I
Well ........
when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well God
WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that God
could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now sits at
the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also now in our
hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through the sky like
Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to be with God
... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
It's all VERY easy to understand.
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000492> wrote in message
news:4af3c900$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>
>
> Well ........
>
> when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
> God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that
> God could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now
> sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also
> now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through
> the sky like Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to
> be with God ... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
>
> It's all VERY easy to understand.
It would be if you had half a brain.
Beginning and Ending = time in a line.
First and Last = time in ordinal cycles.
Alpha and Omega = a PERPENDICULAR relationship to the other two.
In other words, ETERNAL CONDITIONS are NOT CONTINGENT upon TEMPORALITY.
Sorry: These words to big for you?
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000492> wrote in message
[snip]
> from Karen Armstrong "A History of God - From Abraham to the Present: the
> 4000-year Quest for God" ( Vintage; London:1993)
>
> The author of the book of Proverbs .. suggested that Wisdom *[Hokhmah] was
> the masterplan that God had devised when he had created the world and, as
> such, was the first of his creatures. ... Wisdom was not a divine being,
> however, but is specifically said to have been created by God. She is
> similar to the 'glory' *[kavod] of God described by the priestly authors
> ...
Sophia worshipper nonsense.
First, wisdom is but one of the Seven Spirits of God--glory, honor, power,
wisdom, riches, blessing, and strength.
Second, the Seven Spirits of God ARE the SEVEN CHURCHES (post-process, of
course).
So, in fact, this "Sophia worshipping" nonsense is nothing but PERSONAL
VANITY FORWARDED AS "exegesis."
Idiot: Now you're even listening to KABALISTIC CULTISTS before the Word.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000492> wrote in message
> "singin4free" <jffr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joh 5:23
>
> There is almost nothing in John's gospel that was ever said by the
> historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
>
Oh, well, lookie there: More Pharisee ass kissing from the Jesus Seminar.
And this from one of the people who were so stupid they couldn't read their
own prophecies and killed their own foretold Messiah.
Go figure: The heretic calls upon idiots to support his ravings.
[snip]
Ike
guardian Snow
wrote:
> "I" <me@home000000000000492> wrote in message
>
> news:4af3c900$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
> >> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>
> > Well ........
>
> > when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
> > God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that
> > God could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now
> > sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also
> > now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through
> > the sky like Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to
> > be with God ... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
>
> > It's all VERY easy to understand.
>
< It would be if you had half a brain.
Then it's a good thing he has a whole brain. No.. SUPERMAN saved the
Jews by flying them out of Egypt, don't you remember the Holiday
Armadillo?
I
>> >> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>> > Well ........
>> > when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... >> >
>> > well God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to >>> life
>> > again so that God could then fly through the sky like Superman to >>>
>> > heaven where God now sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ...
>> > >>> except that God is also now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um ..
>> > God >>> will return, flying through the sky like Superman, in the
>> > Second
>>> Coming so that God can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ... >>>
>>> but God is here now with us. It's all VERY easy to understand.
>< It would be if you had half a brain.
>
> Then it's a good thing he has a whole brain. No.. SUPERMAN saved > the
> Jews by flying them out of Egypt, don't you remember the Holiday
> Armadillo?
I'm waiting for Ike to explain the Divine Elevator.
I like a good laugh.
Peanuts! Popcorn! Hotdogs! ... settle back and enjoy the show.
I
>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>> Well ........
>> when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>> God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so
>> that God could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God
>> now sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is
>> also now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying
>> through the sky like Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take
>> us all to be with God ... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
>>
>> It's all VERY easy to understand.
> It would be if you had half a brain.
... and you MUST have at least half your brain dead in order to believe it!
If you had a fully functioning brain you could never believe such
nonsense!!! ...........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE DIVINE ELEVATOR
If God is Jesus then the Divine Elevator looks like this.
God = God Snr
Jesus the Christ = God Jnr
Holy Spirit = God III
Heaven = First Floor
Earth = Ground Level
Hell = Basement
The Old Testament
In the beginning God Snr, from the First Floor created heaven (??? - I
thought he lived in heaven???) and the earth and God III came down from the
First Floor to the Ground Level and hovered over the waters but God Jnr was
nowhere to be seen according to Genesis. God Snr came down from the First
Floor walked in the Garden of Eden on the Ground Level with Adam and Eve
although God Snr is a spirit and cannot be seen. God Jnr and God III were
nowhere in the Garden of Eden according to Genesis. The Garden of Eden and
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life mysteriously
vanish from the Ground Level of earth and cannot be seen today ... along
with God Snr, God Jnr and God III who apperently all went to the First Floor
... although sometimes God III comes down to the Ground Level upon the
prophets and they prophesy ... and God Snr is sometimes comes down from the
First Floor to the Ground Level and is viewed as a cloud or burning bush
etc. ... but God Snr, God Jnr and God III are firmly back on the First Floor
by the end of the Old Testament.
The New Testament
God Snr, God Jnr and God III must have been busy between testaments as the
Basement of hell was created by the time of writing Matthew's gospel. God
Snr in the First Floor thinks it would be a good idea to send God Jnr to the
Ground Level as God Jnr has not been to earth before (his part in the
creation of the First Level and Ground Level must have been from the First
Floor). God Jnr comes down to the Ground Level and when grown up God III
visits him to help him out at his baptism and with miracles etc. God Snr
talks from the First Floor at God Jnr 's baptism. God III then goes back to
the First Floor to await futher instructions. God Jnr is mudered on a
cross. God Snr raises God Jnr from death and helps God Jnr to visit
theBasement (first time any God has visited the Basement according to the
bible). God Jnr comes up the Divine Elevator to Ground Level but cannot be
touched according to his encounter with Mary (Has he travelled to the First
Floor and back to Ground Level by the time he sees Thomas and asks Thomas to
touch his hands and feet??? ) God Jnr promises to send God III when he
goes up the Divine Elevator to the First Floor and sits by God Snr's right
hand side waiting for the time when God Snr sends God Jnr to go back down
the Divine Elevator to Ground Level and take all the Trew Kristyuns back to
the First Floor and send the naughty people to the Basement (also by Divine
Elevator). God Jnr sends God III to the Ground Level.
According to the bible the Divine Elevator is very busy in all this. The
First Floor is just beyond the blue dome where God Snr peers out through
holes in the night time (they aren't really stars up there!) The Basment is
below the earth (as the Ground Level is not flat as they supposed this means
that hell is in the centre of the earth).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sorry: These words to (sic) big for you?
Sorry. Were these words too big for you?
Please tell us YOUR version of the Divine Elevator with:
God = God Snr
Jesus the Christ = God Jnr
Holy Spirit = God III
Heaven = First Floor
Earth = Ground Level
Hell = Basement
I look forward to your explanation as I like a good laugh.
--
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
I
>> from Karen Armstrong "A History of God - From Abraham to the Present: the
>> 4000-year Quest for God" ( Vintage; London:1993)
>>
>> The author of the book of Proverbs .. suggested that Wisdom *[Hokhmah]
>> was the masterplan that God had devised when he had created the world
>> and, as such, was the first of his creatures. ... Wisdom was not a divine
>> being, however, but is specifically said to have been created by God.
>> She is similar to the 'glory' *[kavod] of God described by the priestly
>> authors >> ...
>
> Sophia worshipper nonsense.
Ignorant Ike comment.
> the Word.
The bible NEVER calls itself "the Word of God".
--
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God there!
I
>> There is almost nothing in John's gospel that was ever said by the
>> historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
>> Geza Vermes, Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford University...
>
> Oh, well, lookie there
....
> And this from one of the people who were so stupid they couldn't read
> their own prophecies and killed their own foretold Messiah.
Jews know far more about JEWISH Jesus than an ignorant Christian
fundamentalist who doesn't even believe the Professor Emeritus of Jewish
Studies at Oxford University!!!
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God there!
Ignorant anti-Semitic Ike calls upon fundamentalist idiocy to support his
ravings.
JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS JEWISH and CANNOT be understood apart from JUDAISM of
the first century.
#################################
from Amy-Jill Levine "The Misunderstood Jew: The church and the scandal of
the Jewish Jesus" (HarperCollins:2007).
Amy-Jill Levine is a Jewess and E.Rhodes & Leona B Carpenter Professor of
New Testament Studies at Vanderbuilt Divinity School, Nasville, Tennessee.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Gospel of John with its repeated use of the word "Jew" seemed a litany
of hate. p. 4
... my parents had told me that Jesus was a Jew speaking to other Jews, and
that his basic message was exactly the same as that of Judaism: to "love the
Lord your God" and to "love your neighbour as yourself." p.5
... my students sometimes say, "I read the text, and the Holy Spirit guides
me." Yet even more can be done, or as I am wont to reply, "Give the holy
Spirit something to work with." ... Doing just a bit of historical
investigation provides a much-needed correction to America's
Christ-saturated, albeit biblically ignorant, culture. p.7
The level of religious illiteracy is staggering. p.10
For every "righteous Gentile" honored by the Jewish community for saving
Jewish lives during World war II, we know that hundreds of thousands of
so-called good Christians stood by during, or particuipated in, the planned
extermination of the Jewish people. p.14
For Jews, Jesus is unnecessary or a redundancy; he is not needed to save
from sin or death, since Judaism proclaims a deity ready to forgive
repentant sinners ... p. 18
The Nicene Creed ... The Apostles' Creed ... the creeds do not mention
Jesus' Judaism at all. p.19
Jesus and his earliest followers were all Jews, they held the Torah and the
Prophets sacred, prayed the Psalms, and celebrated the bravery of Esther and
the fidelity of Ruth. .... Historically, Jesus should be seen as continuous
with the line of Jewish teachers and prophets. ... Jesus cannot be
understood fully unless he is understood through first-century Jewish eyes
and heard through first-century Jewish ears. p.20
Mark 12:28-34 ...Matthew 22:34-40 and Luke 10:25-28 ... This "Great
Commandment", as Matthew terms it, is a combination of Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and
Leviticus 19:18. p.19
Mark's version of the citation from Deuteronomy is not a direct quote from
the Hebrew. Deuteronomy speaks of loving God with all "your heart, and with
all your soul, and with all your might"; the citation in the Gospel changes
"might" to "mind" and adds as a fourth component "strength". ... Rabbi
Akiva, who lived a century after Jesus, is said to have stated, "Love your
neighbour as yourself - this is the major principle of the Torah" (Jerusalem
Talmud Nedarim 9:4) ... other books from early Judaism ... Testament of Dan
("Love the Lord with all your life, and another with a sincere heart," 5:3)
and the Testament of Issachar ("I loved the Lord with all my strength;
likewise, I loved everyman with all my heart," 5:2). ... Rabbi Hillel ...
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. All the rest is
commentary; go and learn" ... The connection to Hillel's summary of the
teachings of Judaism is reinforced by Jesus's very next comment: "for this
is the Law and the Prophets" (Matt. 7:12). pp 22-23
Jesus dresses like a Jew. Specifically, he wears tzitzit, "fringes." ...it
is these fringes that the woman with the twelve-year hemorrhage touches in
hopes of a healing (Matt. 9:20). Similarly, Mark 6:56 ... pp. 23-24
One of the major debates in the early church was not whether Jews who
followed Jesus needed to keep kosher, but whether Gentiles who followed him
needed to do so as well. The conclusion was that they didn't, for the
commandments given to Moses at Sinai were for the Jewish people, not for the
Gentiles. p.26
The meaning of the Sabbath thus shifted from a focus on the creation of the
world and the liberation from slavery to a focus on what Christians would
see as a new creartion and a new liberation: Jesus's resurrection, his
creating a new people, and his conquering death. p.30
[Luke 18:9-14] ...The Pharisee, who tithes, who fasts, who prays without
asking anything for himself, is exactly the sort of congregant clergy adore.
The parable then raises the questiojn of who has honor in the congregation,
who is the better role model, who is without sin, and who is without
sanctity. p. 40
Lord's Prayer ... (Matthew 6:9-13) .. In Jewish thought, the designation of
the deity as "Father" develops substantially during the Second Temple
period, that is after the return from the Babylonian exile in 538 BCE. ...
Malachi 2:10 ... This understanding of God as father continues in synagogues
today, where Jews speak of and to Av ha-rachamim ("Merciful Father") as well
as Avinu malkenu "Our Father, our King") and proclaim, Hu avinu ("He is our
Father). pp. 41-43
... the translation "Daddy" is incorrect. The term means "father", and is
not an expression associated primarily with little children. ... Even
Joachim Jeremias, the scholar who first proposed rthe translation "Daddy"
along with its unique attribution to Jesus, retracted his thesis and called
it "A piece of inadmissable naivete." p. 43
By speaking of the "Father in heaven," Jesus thus insists that Rome is not
the "true" father. p. 45
"Hallowed be your name," is a component of most Jewish prayers. p. 45
"Your Kingdomn come" correlates in Jewish tradition with the expression olam
ha-bah, "the world to come." The "world to come" is the messianic age. a
time distinguished from and infinitely better than "this world" (olam
ha-zeh). Jesus's plea for a divine kingdom to come has a conspicuous
political edge. The prayer seeks the divine kingdom, not the one of Caesar
or his lackeys ... p. 46
Perhaps the best translatiopm, then, would be, "Give us tomorrow's bread
today." for that makes the most sense in a first-century Jewish setting.
Jewish texts speak of the olam ha-bah, the world to come, as a glorious
banquet. Isaiah 25:6 .... In the church, taste of the messianic age is what
should be encountered at the Eucharist (Communion), at the "Lord's table."
"Give us tomorrow's bread today" therefore means "Bring about your rule,
when we can eat at the messianic banquet." p. 48
As for "Forgive us our trespasses," the original was most likely "Forgive us
our debts" ... It goes directly to the pocketbook; it says "Don't hold a
debt. if someone needs, give." This is a call for economic justice. p. 49
The Greek phrase usually translated "Lead us not into temptation" ios
better rendered "Do not bring us to the test." .... thus means "Do not put
us in a situation where we might be tempted to deny our faith or morals."
... "Evil" in the line "but rescue us from evil" is more precisely "the evil
one" ... on the colloquial level, the couplet may be seen as saying "Look,
God, I don't need testing from you, and I certainly don't need being brought
to the test by Satan." pp.50-51
The prayer is not "to Jesus"; it says nothing uniquely Christian; and it
fits neatly within Jewish piety. p. 51
The kingdom of heaven is not, for the Jewish Jesus, a piece of real estate
for the single saved soul; it is a communal vision of what could be and what
should be. p. 51
Despite Paul's insistence that Jesus "was buried and that he was raised on
the third day in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4), no Jewish
source, outside those associated with the followers of Jesus, shows any
expectation that the messiah would be killed and after three days rise. The
closest possible reference is Hosea 6:1-2 ... The reference is not to a
single individual; but to the people of Israel. p. 56
Peter, Paul and James ... transformed the Jewish sect onto a Gentile
phenomenon. p. 62
... they started a process that would translate the Jewish Jesus into a
gentile Savior. p. 66
Most Jews would not have accepted Paul's claims any more than they would
have expected a messiah without a messianic age. They already had the
belief in the resurrection of the dead, and they believed in a just God who
forgave sin. Thuis, this new Galilean savior would be for them a
redundancy - there was nothing broken or missing in their system that his
death and resurrection could fix or fill. .... As Paul puts it in 1
Corinthians 1:23. "We proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block
[skandalon] to Jews and foolishness [morian, i.e., moronic] to gentiles."
... Thi business about dying to sin and rising to Christ and immersion in
water as an initiation rite representing rebirth smacked of something the
followers of Isis, Dionysius, or Attis or those folks whom participated in
the Eleusian mysteries would do. Off-putting as well was the idea of a
human sacrifice who establishes a "new covenant in his blood" (1 Cor.
11:25). p.67
Stynagogue gatherings - "synagogue" is from a Greek term that literally
means "gathering together" - were attended not only by Jews but also
gentiles. Called "God-fearers," these gentiles admired judaism's ethos and
antiquity, its rituals and its ethics, but they did not make full
conversion. ... According to Zechariah 8:22-23: "Many peoples and strong
nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat
the favour of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days, ten men
from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his
garment and saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with
you.'" They do say, however, "circumcise us when we get there." They would
worship the God of Israel as Gentiles. ... To put this in Christian
parlance, one did not have to be Jewish in order to be saved. p.68
... for Paul, the Gentiles would come into the messianic realm as Gentiles,
they did not have to be Jews in order to be in a right relationship with
God. The Babylonian Talmud, that compendium of Jewish Law, agrees with him:
"Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come"
(Sanhedrin 105a). p.69
To speak of the "son of God" or "god from god" or "savior" and to mean Jesus
rather than Caesar (for those were titles gtiven to the Roman Emperor) was
to suggest disloyalty to the state. p.70
Circumcision and following the dietary regulations mandated in Torah would
mark the church as a Jewish movement; lack of circumcision and the
proclamation that all foods are clean distinguish the church from its Jewish
origins. p.72
For Peter and James, there was a two-track system. Gentiles and Jews,
although marked by separate practices, were both full members of the
church. For Paul, there was only one track, and it was his. p.76
James offers his compromise. He "reached the decision that we should not
trouble the Gentiles who are turning to God, but we should write to them to
abstain only from things polluted by idols [i.e. meat offered in pagan
temples], and from fornication [sexual indecency; the Greek term is porneia,
whence "pornography"], and from whatever has been strangled, and from blood"
(15:19-20). the injunctions show some connection to Leviticus 17-18 and the
rules for the ger toshav, or "resident alien." They also bear some
conformity with the Noachian commandments, seven rules that according to the
rabbis were part of the covenant that God established with Noah and, so,
requisite for all humanity: injunctions against murder (shefichat damin;
literally, "spilling blood"), stealing (or kidnapping; gezel), idolatry
(avodah zarah), sexual imorality (giliu arayot), eating the flesh from a
live animal (ever min ha-chai), and blasphemy against the God of Israel
("Blessing the name," birhat ha-Shem) and the insitance on homnest courts
(dinim). in this configuration, the Gentiles have only seven commandments;
the Jews have not just the Ten Commandments, but the 613 given to Moses.
Acts brings the number for the Gentiles down to four. pp. 77-78
The common ground the church accepted was the common ground of its gentile
members. The gospel it proclaimed was that of Paul, not that of James or
Peter. Paul's letters never mention the Jerusalem Council, and no reference
is made to Jame's Letter by any other New Testamemnt document. p.78
By the end of the first century and certainly before the New Testament canon
was fixed, the church had become predominantly Gentile. Paul's Law-free
gospel triumphed over Matthew's insistance that "not one iota, not one stoke
of the letter, will pass from the Law" (5:18). Mark's insistence that Jesus
"declared all foods clean" (7:19b) triumphed over James's insitence on
minimum requirements for Christian Gentiles (Acts 15) .... The very
practices that preserved the Jewish identity of Jesus's earliest followers,
those practices that Peter and james had cherished, would become
eccentricities; eventually they would become heresies. p. 84
Peter and Paul and James ... these three Jews preserved the message of
Jesus. Jesus did not engage in a mission to the Gentiles. p.85
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Care to comment Ike????
Perhaps you know more than Amy-Jill Levine, a Jewess and E.Rhodes & Leona B
Carpenter Professor of New Testament Studies at Vanderbuilt Divinity School,
Nasville, Tennessee.
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
guardian Snow
> savior? Answer - no.
This is your answer but the Hebrew understanding of scriptures say
otherwise. You did not complete the thought written about by John.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of
the desire of man, but of Elohim.
Now notice it does not say whose name except that of Elohim. How is
it that you continue to deny the name of YAHWEH? Rather than continue
to tell you what you already know, that “god” is a mistranslation,
I’ll speak to the Messianic understanding.
Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
“children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
knowledge, which you are not since you refuse to acknowledge that
“god” is the name of Baal and the deity of Freemasonry.
Isa 45:21 “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel
together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from
that time? Is it not I, YAHWEH? And there is no mighty one besides Me,
a righteous Ěl and a Saviour, there is none besides Me.
Isa 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
am Ěl, and there is none else.
YAHWEH on the other hand is Elohim of Elohim and there is NO OTHER.
Deu 10:17 “For YAHWEH your Elohim is Elohim of mighty ones and Master
of masters, the great Ěl, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality
nor takes a bribe.
My deity is YAHWEH and I have no other. The deity of the Messiah was
YAHWEH and he called out to him and proclaimed his name that is lost
in translation of the Greek.
Elohim (Strong's H430)
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
Here is the greatest translation flaw of the Scriptures crossing the
lips of every English speaking man on Earth.
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the EL?
(KJV)
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
Gods? Has anybody recognize the KJV says there is only one deity?
How come the world is able to recognize ONE deity and still have
scriptures that speak of gods, not false gods but gods?
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Even the commandment speaks of other “gods”, not false gods.
According to the scriptures, “God” is one and there is no other,
period.
(KJV) Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God
beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
If there is “NO GOD” beside him, then every translation that says,
“Gods”, not false gods, must be a mistranslation. The name of the
Almighty and the Hebrew understanding restored reads:
Isa 45:5 ‘I am Yahweh, and there is none else
– there is no Elohim besides Me. I gird you,
though you have not known Me,
What about when we restore this understanding to the New Testament?
Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew when it quotes Deutoronomy:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Yahweh is the ONE, the only and besides him there is no other.
Christians MUST ignore this simply because it means that they are
practicing a pagan religion. The do not desire truth, they desire to
maintain their dogma.
Gen 32:30 for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen Elohim face to face, and my life is preserved.
In Genesis it’s recorded that Jacob wrestled all night with a man
“face to face” with “God” in almost all versions. It was how IsraEL
got its name. This presents a bit of a problem in the later text:
Exo 33:20 But He said, “You are unable to see My face, for no man does
see Me and live.”
Now examine John.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;
Jacob saw somebody face to face and the KJV tells you it’s “God”… who
did he see?
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen Elohim. The only brought-forth Son, who
is in the bosom of the Father, He did declare.2 Footnotes: 1See 5:37,
6:46, 1 John 4:12. 2The pre-existent Son declared, and was the One who
appeared to men.
If we recognize that no one sees the Father and lives, it must be the
Son that wrestled with Jacob. This is why the name is IsraEL. Not
because Jacob wrestled with YHWH because the Torah is very clear he
would not have survived such an event. In this we see the truth of
the statement:
Joh 8:58 Yehoshua said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
This is not a declaration that he is the Almighty; simply that he was
pre-existent as one of the “Sons of Elohim”. I point this out to you
because in this example, we clearly see that “Elohim” a plural word
meaning “mighty one”, is mistranslated in most scriptures as “God”.
Next example.
Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a
great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor
taketh reward:
We know that there is only one supreme deity named YHWH so how can he
be “God of gods”?
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God, and there is none else.
If there is no other “God” how can it speak of plural gods and being
God of Gods? The word God is a mistranslation! The Hebrew word
Elohim applied reads:
Deu 10:17 For YHWH your Elohim is the mighty one of the elohim , and
Sovereign of sovereign, a great El, mighty, and terrible, which
regardeth not persons, nor taketh bribes:
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am El, and there is none else.
So we see that there is more than one Elohim and that they have a sort
of rank and structure where One is the Father and with him are his
servants, messengers (known as Malak translated angels) and Sons. God
is a word from the Germanic versions of scriptures that conveyed the
idea of a deity from the time of the Gutenberg Bible and its roots are
pagan, not Hebrew.
> Does becoming a son of God make you equal to Christ.
>Answer again -
> no. Christ is above all, he has been given a name that is above every
> name in heaven and on earth.
Do you not consider your brother an equal?
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the
heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”
>By faith in him we are ADOPTED as sons,
> BECAUSE of Yeshua.
Don’t blame Yehoshua on your BAAL worship, he never said to worship
him.
Joh 12:49 For I have NOT spoken of MYSELF; but the Father WHICH SENT
ME, HE GAVE me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should
speak.
> The promise of the Spirit comes from Yeshua. It is this Spirit by
> which we receive *adoption* as sons into the family of God that is
> *Yeshua's by birthright*. He is the only begotten Son of God, the Word
> made flesh who was in the beginning with God and WAS God. None of us
> are the Word made flesh. Only Yeshua is that, and only he has the
> "glory as of the ONLY begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth".
Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter.
Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Funny because my deity is all powerful and is not a man, he never
changes. So while you continue in your dogma wondering why you have
never actually manifested the signs of a true believer, it is because
you have chosen to believe a faulty translation of scriptures that has
everybody from Moses to You being a deity.
Exo 7:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to
Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
You are entitled to believe as you wish but at no point in scriptures
was Moses ever made a deity to be worshiped by Israel, Pharaoh or
anybody else for that matter. Clearly, “God” is a mistranslation.
Joh 10:34 Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are Theos?
Theos being the Greek word translated “God”.
We know that this is a quote of Psalm 82:6 and we know the Hebrew word
was Elohim and so it naturally follows that what is “written” is based
in the Hebrew scriptures for understanding.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are elohim; and all of you are children of
the most High.
Yehoshua is ELOHIM, just like Moses or any other mighty one but that
does not make him the Almighty.
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness to Yahweh of
hosts in the land of Mitsrayim. When they cry to Yahweh because of
the oppressors, He sends them a Savior and an Elohim, and shall
deliver them.
Moses was an Elohim to Israel and Aaron was his prophet.
Exo 4:16 “And he shall speak for you to the people. And it shall be
that he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be an elohim for him.
Exo 7:1 And YAHWEH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohim to
Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Abraham was an Elohim and Adonai which in KJV could be translated LORD
GOD.
Gen 23:5 And the sons of Ḥĕth answered Aḇraham, saying to him, 6
“Hear us, my master [adonai also translated LORD in KJV]: You are a
Elohim [translated mighty in kjv but also GOD] prince among us. Bury
your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us withholds
from you his burial site, from burying your dead.”
Clearly Theos has been mistranslated to God instead of Elohim. I
don’t see any Christians running around trying to prove we should
worship Abraham and Moses and even Yehoshua said:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Yahushua unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it
is written, Thou shalt worship YHWH thy Elohim, and him only shalt
thou serve.
Again he says, “it is written” so we know it’s based on the Hebrew
text that reads:
Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear YAHWEH thy Elohim, and serve him, and shalt
swear by his name.
Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other elohim, of the elohim of the
people which are round about you;
You should know that several words end up being translated to “God”
and it varies according to version but generally they include Eloah,
Elohim, El, adonai (lord) sometimes, Baal (lord or master) and even
the set part name of YHWH.
This might help you to understand how confusion reigns in the English
scriptures. I would strongly recommend you read when you have time:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua/web/removing-the-name-of-yhwh
I hope this made sense to you. This link should probably be
considered part two of this discussion.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the
heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the
eye. If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood
and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long
for the endless immensity of the sea.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
http://www.e-sword.net/ Free bible software
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is
really true, there would be little hope of advance.
Orville Wright
Barry OGrady
>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>
>
>Well ........
>
>when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well God
>WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that God
>could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now sits at
>the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also now in our
>hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through the sky like
>Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to be with God
>... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
>
>It's all VERY easy to understand.
It doesn't need to make sense.
=-=-=
Barry
See the website Gladys hates
Find out why she fears it so
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
singin4free
I think the proper answer here is so what? The apostle John, filled
with the Holy Spirit, used the concept of the Logos to explain the
nature of the Person Yeshua. He revealed who the Logos is. He did not
have to invent the word logos to do that. The rest of the words in the
Greek language were already in existence then too.
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000502> wrote in message
news:4af3e47a$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> There is almost nothing in John's gospel that was ever said by the
>>> historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
>>> Geza Vermes, Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford
>>> University...
>>
>> Oh, well, lookie there
reinsert: "more Pharisee ass kissing" [which is all part of the Jesus
Seminar's universalist "faux pax Romanos" agenda]
> ....
>> And this from one of the people who were so stupid they couldn't read
>> their own prophecies and killed their own foretold Messiah.
>
> Jews know far more about JEWISH Jesus than an ignorant Christian
> fundamentalist who doesn't even believe the Professor Emeritus of Jewish
> Studies at Oxford University!!!
LOL
The Pharisee ass kisser even uses a Pharisaical argument: "Who maketh this
man to learn letters?"
Hey, moron: The Pharisees were so incompetent they couldn't even read their
OWN PROPHECIES, and wound up KILLING THEIR OWN MESSIAH.
And THIS you consider a "reliable" source?
> When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to
> the JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God
> there!
LOL
They didn't worship ANYTHING there, moron.
[snip]
> JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS JEWISH and CANNOT be understood apart from JUDAISM
> of the first century.
That's true: Jesus LAMBASTED [pun fully intention] Pharisaical Judaism as
the corrupt religion totally separated from the teachings of Moses and the
prophets that it was then, as it is now.
[snip the rest of the Pharisee ass kissing]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000501> wrote in message
news:4af3df5c$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>> Well ........
>>> when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>>> God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so
>>> that God could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where
>>> God now sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God
>>> is also now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return,
>>> flying through the sky like Superman, in the Second Coming so that God
>>> can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ... but God is here now
>>> with us.
>>>
>>> It's all VERY easy to understand.
>> It would be if you had half a brain.
>
...said the one-digit mental midget...
[yawn]
>> Sorry: These words to (sic) big for you?
>
>
> Sorry. Were these words too big for you?
>
> Please tell us YOUR version of the Divine Elevator with:
>
> God = God Snr
> Jesus the Christ = God Jnr
> Holy Spirit = God III
> Heaven = First Floor
> Earth = Ground Level
> Hell = Basement
>
> I look forward to your explanation as I like a good laugh.
[yawn]
You're so wise in your own eyes, and you don't have a CLUE as to what goes
on (as demonstrated by the fact that you cut Jesus' figure for
three-dimensional time).
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000501> wrote in message
LOL
Hey, moron: Time has THREE dimensions, not one. An "elevator" only goes up
and down.
See what I mean? One-digit mental midget.
(But won't he gripe, moan, groan, bitch, and complain as if he actually
knows anything.)
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000501> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wroteth:
>
>>> from Karen Armstrong "A History of God - From Abraham to the Present:
>>> the 4000-year Quest for God" ( Vintage; London:1993)
>>>
>>> The author of the book of Proverbs .. suggested that Wisdom *[Hokhmah]
>>> was the masterplan that God had devised when he had created the world
>>> and, as such, was the first of his creatures. ... Wisdom was not a
>>> divine being, however, but is specifically said to have been created by
>>> God. She is similar to the 'glory' *[kavod] of God described by the
>>> priestly authors >> ...
>>
>> Sophia worshipper nonsense.
>
> Ignorant Ike comment.
No, informed.
I know who the Sophia worshippers (from the Presbyterian Church) were and
what their cultic nonsense said.
(Notice the dickhead cut the rest of the biblical facts without marking the
omission.)
Fact 1: Wisdom is but one of the Seven (plus One) Spirits, i.e. glory,
honor, power, wisdom, riches, blessing, and strength.
Fact 2: The Churches (post-process) ARE the Seven Spirits, as Jesus draws
the equation "the seven candlesticks = the seven churches = the Seven
Spirits of God."
This is round about way of saying that the CHURCH ETERNAL is the Holy Spirit
sent out at Jesus' command.
Oh, but wait: The resurrection hasn't happened yet, so how could the Spirit
of the Churches be the Holy Spirit sent out at Jesus' command?
Oh, damn: Guess I'll have to explain three-dimensional time to the one-digit
midget all over again.
Beginning and Ending = time in a line.
First and Last = time in ordinal cycles.
Alpha and Omega = a perpendicular relationship by which that which is
eternal can access the other two aspects of time.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"Barry OGrady" <god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a628f5dauocg3g8ss...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:34:07 +1100, "I" <me@home000000000000492> wrote:
>
>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>
>>
>>Well ........
>>
>>when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>>God
>>WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that God
>>could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now sits
>>at
>>the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also now in our
>>hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through the sky
>>like
>>Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to be with God
>>... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
>>
>>It's all VERY easy to understand.
>
> It doesn't need to make sense.
Actually, that's what Jesus said, too...
Mr 8:14-21
Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the
ship with them more than one loaf.
And [Jesus] charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the
Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no
bread.
And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye
have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart
yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do
ye not remember?
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full
of fragments took ye up?
They say unto him, Twelve.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of
fragments took ye up?
And they said, Seven.
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Fewer resources + more people to feed = more leftovers.
More resources + fewer people to feed = fewer leftovers.
What was the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod?
FAILED HUMAN LOGIC...
...just as Ms. T employs.
And thinking herself wise, T makes a fool of herself.
(She's even beginning to sound like "Mrs. Bitch" from "Monty Python's Flying
Circus.")
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"singin4free" <jffr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9877d1f2-ebe6-4bd6...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> I think the proper answer here is so what? The apostle John, filled
> with the Holy Spirit, used the concept of the Logos to explain the
> nature of the Person Yeshua. He revealed who the Logos is. He did not
> have to invent the word logos to do that. The rest of the words in the
> Greek language were already in existence then too.
Precisely.
so what if John and Paul used the language of the day. They were NOT
teaching the vain philosophies of the day; in fact, they used the language
of the day to DENOUNCE the teachings of the day.
But jerks like Mrs. T here have their eyes focused on their toes rather than
the skies.
Ike
guardian Snow
wrote:
> Hey, moron: Time has THREE dimensions, not one. An "elevator" only goes up
> and down.
Time is an illusion. The only time we have is NOW.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you:
that with YAHWEH one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years
as one day.
The only day that matters is today.
Mat 6:34 “Do not, then, worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow shall have
its own worries. Each day has enough evil of itself.
I
>> Jews know far more about JEWISH Jesus than an ignorant Christian
>> fundamentalist who doesn't even believe the Professor Emeritus of Jewish
>> Studies at Oxford University!!!
...
> The Pharisees were so incompetent they couldn't even read their OWN
> PROPHECIES, and wound up KILLING THEIR OWN MESSIAH.
>
> And THIS you consider a "reliable" source?
I consider Amy-Jill Levine, a Jewess and E.Rhodes & Leona B Carpenter
Professor of New Testament Studies at Vanderbuilt Divinity School, Nasville,
Tennessee a FAR GREATER SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT JEWISH JESUS than you'll
ever be.
I note that you CANNOT negate a single word that she stated and result to
your usual ad hominem.
>> When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to
>> the JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God
>> there!
>
> LOL
>
> They didn't worship ANYTHING there, moron.
Jewish Jesus and Jewish disciples worshipped the One God there ... and that
One God was NOT Jesus of Nazareth.
>> JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS JEWISH and CANNOT be understood apart from JUDAISM
>> of the first century.
>
> That's true: Jesus LAMBASTED [pun fully intention] Pharisaical Judaism as
> the corrupt religion totally separated from the teachings of Moses and the
> prophets that it was then, as it is now.
Again you demonstrate your abject ignorance to the world.
I
>>>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>> Well ........
>>>> when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>>>> God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so
>>>> that God could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where
>>>> God now sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God
>>>> is also now in our hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return,
>>>> flying through the sky like Superman, in the Second Coming so that God
>>>> can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ... but God is here now
>>>> with us.
>>>>
>>>> It's all VERY easy to understand.
>>> It would be if you had half a brain.
>>
>> ... and you MUST have at least half your brain dead...
...
> [yawn]
That maybe your problem. You cannot think because you're alseep!
>>> Sorry: These words to (sic) big for you?
>> Sorry. Were these words too big for you?
I note you didn't comment on my correcting your usual mangling of the
English language.
>> Please tell us YOUR version of the Divine Elevator with:
>>
>> God = God Snr
>> Jesus the Christ = God Jnr
>> Holy Spirit = God III
>> Heaven = First Floor
>> Earth = Ground Level
>> Hell = Basement
>>
>> I look forward to your explanation as I like a good laugh.
>
> [yawn]
Wake up Ignorant Ike!!!
You're so wise in your own eyes that you don't have a CLUE as to what goes
on in the real world.
--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from
it of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
I
>>>> >> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>> > Well ........
>>>> > when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... >>
>>>> > > well God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to >>>
>>>> > life again so that God could then fly through the sky like Superman
>>>> > to >>> heaven where God now sits at the right hand of God ... er ...
>>>> > um ... >>> except that God is also now in our hearts ... and ... er
>>>> > ... um .. God >>> will return, flying through the sky like Superman,
>>>> > in the Second
>>>>> Coming so that God can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ...
>>>>> >>> but God is here now with us. It's all VERY easy to understand.
>>>< It would be if you had half a brain.
....
>> I'm waiting for Ike to explain the Divine Elevator.
...
>An "elevator" only goes up and down.
A good start. Now perhaps you can comment on the rest if you are awake.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE DIVINE ELEVATOR
If God is Jesus then the Divine Elevator looks like this.
God = God Snr
Jesus the Christ = God Jnr
Holy Spirit = God III
Heaven = First Floor
Earth = Ground Level
Hell = Basement
The Old Testament
The New Testament
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
I
>>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>Well ........
>>>when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>>>God
>>>WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that
>>>God
>>>could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now sits
>>>at
>>>the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also now in
>>>our
>>>hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through the sky
>>>like
>>>Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to be with God
>>>... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
....
> FAILED HUMAN LOGIC...
FAILED EXPLANATION BY IGNORANT IKE.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE DIVINE ELEVATOR
The Old Testament
The New Testament
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
Terry Cross
> "singin4free" <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joh 5:23
>
> There is almost nothing in John's gospel that was ever said by the historic
> time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Geza Vermes, Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford University does
> not even use John's gospel in reconstructing the gospel of the historic
> Jewish Jesus in his "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus" (Penguin:2003). He
> mainly uses the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Why would ANYone ever use a professor of Jewish Studies as an
authority on Christianity? Jews are notoriously, historically, and
constitutionally opposed to Jesus and the teachings of Jesus, and some
are quite hostile. Unless you admit Christians as authorities on
Judaism, you should never advocate Jews as authorities on
Christianity.
TCross
I
> The apostle John, filled with the Holy Spirit
... DIDN'T write john's gospel as he was DEAD at the time. John's gospel was
written by an unknown person 90 - 120 CE. See
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
> used the concept of the Logos to explain the
> nature of the Person Yeshua.
John is saying that the logos dwelt IN Jesus of nazareth not that Jesus of
Nazareth WAS the logos.
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
I
>> Ignorant Ike comment.
>
> No, informed.
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
The bible NEVER calls itself "the Word of God".
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
I
> They were NOT teaching the vain philosophies of the day
... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides)
John Milton"Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951] p. 14
OOps! Ignorant Ike has demonstrated his ignorance again!!!
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000502> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Jews know far more about JEWISH Jesus than an ignorant Christian
>>> fundamentalist who doesn't even believe the Professor Emeritus of Jewish
>>> Studies at Oxford University!!!
> ...
>> The Pharisees were so incompetent they couldn't even read their OWN
>> PROPHECIES, and wound up KILLING THEIR OWN MESSIAH.
>>
>> And THIS you consider a "reliable" source?
>
> I consider Amy-Jill Levine, a Jewess and E.Rhodes & Leona B Carpenter
> Professor of New Testament Studies at Vanderbuilt Divinity School,
> Nasville, Tennessee a FAR GREATER SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT JEWISH JESUS
> than you'll ever be.
LOL
Gee, I guess split agendas DON'T COUNT FOR MUCH to you.
> I note that you CANNOT negate a single word that she stated and result to
> your usual ad hominem.
Chuckle.
Her reasoning is flawed at the BASE LEVEL, oh, clueless one: She's trying to
figure out how to get her Phariseeism to square with Jesus' teachings by
REDUCING JESUS to HER level, which is what the Jesus Seminar is all about
anyhow. It makes for the perfect marriage, er, whoredom.
>>> When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to
>>> the JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God
>>> there!
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> They didn't worship ANYTHING there, moron.
>
> Jewish Jesus and Jewish disciples worshipped the One God there...
They didn't do any such thing.
Cite where Jesus and the boys WORSHIPPED AT ANY TIME while they were there.
Jesus didn't go there to worship.
He went their to TEACH and to PROPHECY and to FULFILL HIS ROLE as "the Lamb
of God who takes away the sins of the world."
> ... and that One God was NOT Jesus of Nazareth.
LOL
The Jews almost stoned Jesus several times for equating Himself with God.
THEY understood what He was saying.
Why don't you?
>>> JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS JEWISH and CANNOT be understood apart from JUDAISM
>>> of the first century.
>>
>> That's true: Jesus LAMBASTED [pun fully intention] Pharisaical Judaism as
>> the corrupt religion totally separated from the teachings of Moses and
>> the prophets that it was then, as it is now.
>
>
> Again you demonstrate your abject ignorance to the world.
Nope. I reveal your corrupt agenda to the world.
The objectives of the Jesus Seminar:
-Rewrite history to exonerate the Jews because holding the Jews guilty for
their actions is politically incorrect and gets in the way of their
non-committal universalistic agenda (even though it wasn't actually Jews who
instigated the matter, but "those who say they are Jews, and are not, but do
lie").
-Eliminate Jesus' eschatology because it gets in the way of their globalism.
-Reduce Jesus' status to that of "just a nice man" to politically correct
Christianity, making it less exclusive and more palatable to the nations
because what He actually taught gets in the way of their globalism, i.e.
their false peace agenda (which is ironic, because that's PRECISELY how the
prophets said that Satan would come after the believers, i.e. through false
peace).
-In furtherance of the previous goals, undermine the validity of the books
of the New Testament (and, when possible, the Old Testament) through unfair
criticisms and impossible late-dating so as to eliminate as much of Jesus'
teachings as possible, in particular those related to sin (for the
furtherance of homosexuality and other deviant behaviors), law and order
(for the furtherance of feminism), exclusivity (for the furtherance of
universalism), and eschatology (for the furtherance of globalism).
Like all fraudulent "scholars," the Jesus Seminar started with a goal, and
then set out to rewrite the whole story to meet those goals using entirely
flawed empirical means, as they base their decisions on the OPINIONS OF MEN
who have A PRECONCEIVED OPINION of WHAT OPINION they WANT TO HEAR.
(Unfortunately, the same thing has happened in the churches going the other
way, too.)
This is what makes you "Laodiceans," i.e. not hot or cold, thinking you're
full of wisdom when you're full of foolishness: Your agenda is to create a
"faithless and unfaithful" Jesus you can hold in stasis so He can't
interfere with your desires to recreate the world, and even God Himself, in
your own image.
Nevertheless, Jesus WILL interfere with your agenda...big time...but not
before the damage has been done to your souls.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000502> wrote in message
[snip]
> Wake up Ignorant Ike!!!
>
> You're so wise in your own eyes that you don't have a CLUE as to what goes
> on in the real world.
I know what you think your "real world" is, but it doesn't scratch the
surface of the REAL "real world."
That's why you have to try and reduce Jesus to your level, one-digit mental
midget.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000502> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> >> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>>> > Well ........
>>>>> > when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ...
>>>>> > >> > well God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to
>>>>> > >>> life again so that God could then fly through the sky like
>>>>> > Superman to >>> heaven where God now sits at the right hand of God
>>>>> > ... er ... um ... >>> except that God is also now in our hearts ...
>>>>> > and ... er ... um .. God >>> will return, flying through the sky
>>>>> > like Superman, in the Second
>>>>>> Coming so that God can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ...
>>>>>> >>> but God is here now with us. It's all VERY easy to understand.
>>>>< It would be if you had half a brain.
> ....
>>> I'm waiting for Ike to explain the Divine Elevator.
> ...
>>An "elevator" only goes up and down.
>
> A good start. Now perhaps you can comment on the rest if you are awake.
Sure...
"Before Abraham was, I Am."
"If Christ is David's son, how is it He calls Him Lord."
"You do err, not knowing the scriptures: God is not the God of the dead, but
the God of the living."
"I Am the root AND offspring of David."
"Go and tell that fox, I cast out demons, and the rest of today and tomorrow
I do cures, and the third day I will be perfected; but today I walk, and
tomorrow I walk, and the next day I walk, for it cannot be that a prophet
should perish out of Jerusalem."
"...no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which IS IN heaven."
"In the beginning WAS [He who is] The Word, and [He who is] The Word was
WITH God, and [He who is] The Word WAS God."
Until you stop relying on what you THINK you see, touch, feel, smell, and
hear, and leave behind your one-dimensional thinking, you'll NEVER overcome
the things of the world and attain God.
1Co 1:19-29
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring
to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this
world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe: For
the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach
Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks
foolishness, but unto them which are called--both Jews and Greeks--Christ
the power of God, and the wisdom of God: Because the foolishness of God is
wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the
flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the
foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the
weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, and base
things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea,
and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh
should glory in his presence.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000502> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>>Well ........
>>>>when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... well
>>>>God
>>>>WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to life again so that
>>>>God
>>>>could then fly through the sky like Superman to heaven where God now
>>>>sits at
>>>>the right hand of God ... er ... um ... except that God is also now in
>>>>our
>>>>hearts ... and ... er ... um .. God will return, flying through the sky
>>>>like
>>>>Superman, in the Second Coming so that God can take us all to be with
>>>>God
>>>>... er ... um ... but God is here now with us.
> ....
>> FAILED HUMAN LOGIC...
Notice how the bastard CAN'T LET THE WORD OF GOD STAND--IF THE WORD STANDS,
HE FALLS. (And indeed you will if you stay on your present course.)
So let's put it back up there so people can see what God thinks of your
humanistic "logistics."
Mr 8:13-21
And [Jesus] left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the
other side.
Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the
ship with them more than one loaf.
And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the
Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no
bread.
And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye
have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart
yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do
ye not remember?
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full
of fragments took ye up?
They say unto him, Twelve.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of
fragments took ye up?
And they said, Seven.
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Fewer resources + more people to feed = MORE leftovers.
More resources + fewer people to feed = LESS leftovers.
How is it YOU don't understand, Mark?
Ike
I
<snip Ignorant Ike's rabid anti-Sermitism>
Oops! Nothing left!!!
I
<whatever>
PROOF THE FINITE HISTORIC TIME / SPACE JESUS OF NAZARETH IS NOT THE
EXCLUSIVE ONE GOD YAHWEH.
COMPARISON BETWEEN
THE ONE GOD YAHWEH
&
THE HUMAN JESUS OF NAZARETH
The infinite One God Yahweh is:
- everywhere (omnipresent):
- all knowing (omniscient)
- all powerful (omnipotent)
- Spirit
- eternal, self-existent
- invisible
- immutable (unchangeable)
- does not urinate, deficate or pass wind.
- does not get tired or sleep.
- does not die.
- sends but is not sent
- rules but is not ruled over
- commands but is not commanded
- anoints the human Messiah / Christ
BUT
The finite historic time / space human Jesus of Nazareth is:
- confined / restricted to his human body
- doesn't know when the end will come
- heals a man in stages with spittle and dust
- cannot do miracles because of people's unbelief.
- human flesh with a spirit.
- began as a fetus inside Mary
- totally visible from his birth till his death.
- changed in the normal physical and psychological stages of all humans /
aged.
- urinated, deficated and passed wind.
- got tired and slept
- died by Roman execution.
- was sent and did not send
- is ruled over
- is commanded
- is anointed by God
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
"I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
THEREFORE
Jesus is NOT the infinite One God Yahweh and "You will have no gods other
than me (the infinite One God Yahweh)".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is greater the ANOINTER or the ANOINTED?
The ANOINTER (the One God / Yahweh) is far greater than the ANOINTED:
1. CYRUS (Isaiah 45:1)
2. THE PATRIACHS (Psalm 105:15)
3. ISRAEL (Habakkuk 3:13, Psalm 28: 8; 84:10)
4. JESUS OF NAZARETH (Act 2:36)
IF "Messiah" means "God" then why aren't Cyrus, the Patriachs and Israel
considered to be the One God (Yahweh) alongside Jesus of Nazareth???????
-
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JESUS baptised for the forgiveness of his SINS
DOES GOD SIN?????
- Mark 1:4 "John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, PREACHING A
BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS."
- Matthew 3:6 "They were BAPTISED by him the river Jordan, CONFESSIING THEIR
SIN"
- Luke 3:3 " and he went into all the region about the Jordan, PREACHING A
BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN"
ANY sinner seeing Jesus of Nazareth being baptised by John the Baptist would
immeditely think that it was the SAME baptism that Johnthe Baptist had
always given - BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS" - the
phrase that is used repeatedly for John the Baptist's baptism.
ANY sinner seeing Jesus of Nazareth being baptised by John the Baptist would
also immeditely think that Jesus had repented of his sins for there was NO
OTHER REASON that John the Baptist baptised.
If John the Baptist HAD baptised Jesus differently then he would have stated
so and made sure to say that "Jesus is God! He doesn't need forgiveness. I
am about to baptise him for his ministry." INSTEAD JOHN THE BAPTIST IS NOT
SURE THAT JESUS OF NAZARETH IS "THE ONE" (MESSIAH / CHRIST)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read Matthew 11: 2-3 and Luke 7:19.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 11: 2-3
Now when John heard about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his
disciples and said to him,"ARE YOU HE WHO IS TO COME, OR SHALL WE LOOK FOR
ANOTHER?"
Luke 7: 19
And John, calling to him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord,
saying, "ARE YOU HE WHO IS TO COME, OR SHALL WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above two passages clearly demonstrate that John the Baptist didn't
think Jesus of Nazareth was the One God Yahweh and was uncertain whether he
was really the Messiah / Christ!!!!!
One should use one's God-given mind and integrate what is clearly stated by
John the Baptist in Matthew 11: 2-3 (written 85 CE) and Luke 7:19 (written
90
CE). I also note that the later John's Gospel (written 90 - 120 CE) omits
John the Baptist's questions as well as his baptism of Jesus as, by this
time,
it is an embarrassment to have Jesus as "god" being baptised for his sins
and then later being asked wherther he really is the Messiah or not by the
person who did the baptism!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18 - He (JESUS) said to him, "Why do you ask ME
about the good ? There is ONLY ONE who is good, that is, GOD.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 (JESUS speaking) "MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast thou
forsaken me?
John 14:28 - My Father (YAHWEH) is GREATER than I (JESUS)
John 20:17 - "I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD
AND YOUR GOD"
Act 2:36 - " Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD
[YAHWEH] has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you
crucified."
1 Corinthians 11:3 - The HEAD of Christ is GOD.
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is ONE GOD God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND
MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 5:31 - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 1:18 - No man has seen god.
Since people saw Jesus of Nazareth - then Jesus of Nazareth CANNOT be God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Numbers 23: 19 - God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he
promise and not fulfill?
Mark 13: 32 - "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
If God and Jesus were the same person, how come the son does not know the
time, only the father does??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus himself is not the proper object of faith.
...
Jesus called on his followers to trust the Father, to believe in God's
domain or reign. The proper object of faith inspired by Jesus is to trust
what Jesus trusted. For that reasonm, I am not primarily interested in
affirmations about Jesus but in the truths that inspired and informed Jesus.
To call for faith in Jesus is to subsititute the agent for the reality, the
proclaimer for the proclaimed. ...
Jesus pointed to God's domain, something he did not create, something he
did not control. I want to discover what Jesus saw, or heard, or sensed that
was so enchanting, so mezmerizing, so challenging that it held Jesus in its
spell. And I do not want to bhe misled by what his followers did: instead of
looking to see what he saw, his devoted disciples tended to stare at the
pointing finger. Jesus himself should notbe, must not be, the object of
faith. That would be to repeat the idolatry of the first believers.
From Robert W. Funk "Honest To Jesus: Jesus for a New Millenium" (Hodder &
Stoughton: 1996) pp. 304-305
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trinitarianism ... the belief that there are three to the essence of God, is
a belief accepted by all contemporary Christians. Judaism strongly
disagrees. It stands firm in maintaining that God is One - without
partners, self-sufficient, and indivisible. ... One is not Three and Three
is not One. ... Judaism has serious difficulties with a number of
trinitarian major premises:
- God is not human. Man is not God. The Christian doctrine of the
Incarnation ... goes against the fundamental Jewish belief that God is
incorporeal - that He has no body and cannot be affected by any of the
weaknesses of the flesh. To say that God died then died on the cross seems
incomprehensible. God cannot die - just as He does not "live" in human
form.
- To worship Jesus as God is to violate the commandment that "You shall have
no other gods before Me." ... "And the man Moses ..." (Numbers 12:3). God
was careful to delineate the difference between Himself and human beings.
Jews can't accept that a man or woman could possibly be God.
- Most disturbing of all to the Jewish idea of monotheism in the Trinity is
that Judaism recognises no intermediary between God and man. The first of
the Ten Commandments, "I am the LORD your God," is written with a Hebrew
word that implies a singular "your." God speaks to every person directly
and says, "I am accessible to you without any middle man." For the Jew,
this means that he has an open line to God Himself. Praying to the Son to
get to the Father goes against one of the major beliefs of Judaism, as later
codified by Maimonides: "To Him and to Him alone shall you pray directly."
A Jew belives that no-one else is supposed to talk for him, live for him -
and certainly not die for him.
from Rabbi Benjamin Blech "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Understanding
Judaism" (Alpha:2003) pp. 9-10
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pre-Easter Jesus / Post-Easter Jesus
4 B.C.E. to 30 C.E. / 30 C.E. to present
Corporeal, human being of flesh and blood Spiritual / non-material
reality
Finite and mortal / Infinite, eternal
Human / Divine
A Jewish peasant / King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Figure of the past / Figure of the present
Jesus of Nazareth / Jesus Christ
Monotheistic Jew / Becomes the second person of the trinity, "God with a
human face"
Galilean Jew of the first century / "The Face of God" (metaphor based on
2 Cor. 4:6 Beholding the glory of God in the face of Christ)
The ONLY AUTHENTIC human time / space historic Jesus of Nazareth is the
Pre-Easter Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
"Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
"Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New Testament
THEREFORE
YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord") for "YHWH"
in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the New Testament.
--
Lord does not mean God.
Lord means master / boss.
1) property owners are called Lord (Matt. 20:8, kurios is "owner" - NIV)
2) heads of households were called Lord (Mk 13:35, owner=kurios).
3) slave owners were called Lord (Matt. 10:24, master=kurios).
4) husbands were called Lord (1 Pet. 3:6, master=kurios).
5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30, sir=kurios).
6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26, His Majesty=kurios).
7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63, sir=kurios).
I
> THE WORD OF GOD
The bible NEVER states that the WHOLE bible is "God's Word".
NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE TO BACK UP YOUR ABSURD FUNDAMENTALIST CLAIM!!!!!
####################################################
from James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977)
There is no 'the Bible' that 'claims' to be divinely inspired, there is no
'it' that has a 'view of itself'. ... There is no such thing as 'the Bible's
view of itself' from which a fully authoritative answer to these questions
can be obtained. ... The most obvious difficulty is the absence from the
New Testamnent of clear unambiguous 'claims' about the infallibility and
inerrancy of the total New Testament as we have it today. p.78
##############################################
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000504> wrote in message
news:4af483b9$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "singin4free" <jffr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The apostle John, filled with the Holy Spirit
>
> ... DIDN'T write john's gospel as he was DEAD at the time. John's gospel
> was written by an unknown person 90 - 120 CE. See
> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
>
>> used the concept of the Logos to explain the
>> nature of the Person Yeshua.
>
> John is saying that the logos dwelt IN Jesus of nazareth not that Jesus of
> Nazareth WAS the logos.
Nope. John was laying out the Triune Mystery in which Jesus is 1) Jesus, 2)
related to God, and 3) God in His own right.
> "God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
Silly man...
Jn 17:20-23
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on
me through their word, that they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me,
and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe
that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be
one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made
perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast
loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1 x 1 x 1 ad infinitum = 1
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000504> wrote in message
LOL
They didn't worship ANYTHING there.
Cite where Jesus and the boys WORSHIPPED IN THE TEMPLE.
Can't do it.
Never happened.
But what DID happen?
JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED, and the Pharisees (like yourself) had a FIT about
it...
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly,
and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Mt 21:1-17
And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto
the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, Go
into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass
tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any
man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and
straightway he will send them.
All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophet, saying, tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto
thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, and brought the
ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut
down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the
multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to
the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna
in the highest.
And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who
is this?
And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of
Galilee.
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold
and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and
the seats of them that sold doves, and said unto them, It is written, My
house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of
thieves. And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed
them.
And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he
did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son
of David; they were sore displeased, and said unto him, Hearest thou what
these say?
And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of
babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged
there.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000505> wrote in message
news:4af4...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
The ignorance is all yours: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000505> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip Ignorant Ike's rabid anti-Sermitism>
>
> Oops! Nothing left!!!
LOL
It's not anti-Semitism. It's ANTI-PHARISEEISM, just as Jesus, Paul, and John
taught.
<chuckle>
Ike
Barry OGrady
<xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"I" <me@home000000000000501> wrote in message
>news:4af3df5c$3...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> "guardian Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>> >> If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?
>>>> > Well ........
>>>> > when God died on the cross God wasn't really dead ... er .. um ... >>
>>>> > > well God WAS dead but the other God raised God from death to >>>
>>>> > life again so that God could then fly through the sky like Superman to
>>>> > >>> heaven where God now sits at the right hand of God ... er ... um
>>>> > ... >>> except that God is also now in our hearts ... and ... er ...
>>>> > um .. God >>> will return, flying through the sky like Superman, in
>>>> > the Second
>>>>> Coming so that God can take us all to be with God ... er ... um ... >>>
>>>>> but God is here now with us. It's all VERY easy to understand.
>>>< It would be if you had half a brain.
>>>
>>> Then it's a good thing he has a whole brain. No.. SUPERMAN saved > the
>>> Jews by flying them out of Egypt, don't you remember the Holiday
>>> Armadillo?
>>
>>
>> I'm waiting for Ike to explain the Divine Elevator.
>
>LOL
>
>Hey, moron: Time has THREE dimensions, not one.
What are the three dimensions and where does your information come
from?
> An "elevator" only goes up and down.
Time only goes forward.
>See what I mean? One-digit mental midget.
>
>(But won't he gripe, moan, groan, bitch, and complain as if he actually
>knows anything.)
>
>Ike
=-=-=
Barry
See the website Gladys hates
Find out why she fears it so
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000505> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <whatever>
>
> PROOF THE FINITE HISTORIC TIME / SPACE JESUS OF NAZARETH IS NOT THE
> EXCLUSIVE ONE GOD YAHWEH.
LOL
[snip]
> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
> Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
>
> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
> Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
> Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
Yes, He did...
Act 7:44-45
Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had
appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the
fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in
WITH JESUS into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before
the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
And who dined with Abraham?
JESUS...
Jn 8:56-59
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast
thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went
out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Who reached across time and space and wrote the Ten Commandments, TWICE, on
a wall in Sinai while stopped before men accusing Him of violating the very
law HE WROTE?
JESUS...
Jn 8:4-11
[The Pharisees] say unto [Jesus], Master, this woman was taken in
adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such
should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But
Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he
heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto
them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went
out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was
left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said
unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And why did Jesus stand up and stoop down to do it all over again?
BECAUSE MOSES BROKE THE FIRST SET.
<chuckle>
Who formed Adam from the dust of the earth, which led to David, which led to
Jesus, which led to Jesus forming Adam from the dust of the earth, which led
to David, which led to Jesus, ad infinitum?
JESUS.
Re 22:16b I am the root and the offspring of David...
Who formed the creation itself?
JESUS.
Jn 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made.
And the list goes on.
Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?
JESUS.
Who wrestled with Jacob?
JESUS.
Who closed the door on the Ark?
JESUS.
Jesus even SAID where He was going, but you pay no attention to what Jesus
said when it proves you wrong...
Lk 13:32-33
And [Jesus] said unto [the Herodians], Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold,
I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I
shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the
day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
You're going to look pretty silly with that egg all over your face when you
find out that it was JESUS who was doing these things all along...but by
then, it'll be too late to TAKE IT BACK.
Your loss. Not mine. You've been well told.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000505> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> THE WORD OF GOD
>
> The bible NEVER states that the WHOLE bible is "God's Word".
I never said it was.
What Jesus said and did throughout history is "the Word of God," and He IS
"the Word of God."
That there are errors in the written FACSIMILE of the Word of God is of no
consequence to me--the story remains the same. A few errant passages have no
detrimental effect on the Word of Truth. Then again, YOU'LL never figure out
what they are since you're advancing your PRIVATE AGENDA AGAINST THE WORD OF
TRUTH, a.k.a. Christ Jesus.)
See, that's the problem with you wicked and hateful ones--you think you can
pull a few threads and tear the whole rug apart.
********
********
Ike
I
>>> The apostle John
....
>> ... DIDN'T write john's gospel as he was DEAD at the time. John's gospel
>> was written by an unknown person 90 - 120 CE. See
>> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
...
>> John is saying that the logos dwelt IN Jesus of BNareth not that Jesus of
>> Nazareth WAS the logos.
...
>> "God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
>
> Silly man...
You are indeed! As you next quote from a FORGERY ....
> Jn 17:20-23
Written 90-120 CE when the apostle John was DEAD!!!!. See
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
I
>> The bible NEVER calls itself "the Word of God".
>> When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to
>> the JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God
>> there!
>
> LOL
Ignorant Ike laughs like a lunatiic again.
I
>>> They were NOT teaching the vain philosophies of the day
>>
>> ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
>> learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not
>> possibly
>> be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who
>> thought
>> it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three
>> Greek
>> poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
>> Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides)
>>
>> John Milton"Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
>> York:1951] p. 14
>>
>> OOps! Ignorant Ike has demonstrated his ignorance again!!!
...
> Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
... but Ignorant Ike's stopped mind is NEVER right!!!
I
>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>> Egypt,
>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
>> Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
>>
>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>> Egypt,
>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
>> Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
>> Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
>
> Yes, He did...
>
> Act 7:44-45
NOPE! Jesus of Nazareth isn't even mentioned in that passage!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
44 'While they were in the desert our ancestors possessed the Tent of
Testimony that had been constructed according to the instructions God gave
Moses, telling him to work to the design he had been shown.
45 It was handed down from one ancestor of ours to another until
Joshua brought it into the country that had belonged to the nations which
were driven out by God before us. Here it stayed until the time of David.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=51
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Jn 8:56-59
Snippeth MULTIPLE quotes from the same FORGERY - John's gospel - written
90 - 120 CE when the apostle John was DEAD!
See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
I note that Ignorant Ike CANNOT find the same passages in MARK'S GOSPEL
written earlier - 65-80 CE - and whose source may be Peter.
I
> The objectives of the Jesus Seminar:
What would Ignorant Ike know about it????
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000506> wrote in message
news:4af4ae7f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
...was the last man standing, just as Jesus said would happen.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"Barry OGrady" <god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:el89f5933ccpe1qkr...@4ax.com...
The Word.
Beginning and Ending = time in a line.
First and Last = time in cycles.
Alpha and Omega = random access to time from a third dimension of time.
>>> An "elevator" only goes up and down.
>
> Time only goes forward.
We can only experience two of the three parameters of time, i.e. that which
is temporal.
That which is eternal is outside the parameters of linear time, and, when
allowed, those who are eternal can enter into the "river of life" at any
point, as testified to by Jesus...
"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
"Before Abraham was, I Am."
"If Christ is David's son, how is it he calls him 'Lord.'"
"I Am the root AND offspring of David."
And so on, and so forth.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000506> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The objectives of the Jesus Seminar:
>
> What would Ignorant Ike know about it????
Notice how the fraud can't take on the points, so he has to CUT them.
Here, we'll post them back up again.
The objectives of the Jesus Seminar:
-Rewrite history to exonerate the Jews because holding the Jews guilty for
their actions is politically incorrect and gets in the way of their
non-committal universalistic agenda (even though it wasn't actually Jews who
instigated the matter, but "those who say they are Jews, and are not, but do
lie").
-Eliminate Jesus' eschatology because it gets in the way of their globalism.
-Reduce Jesus' status to that of "just a nice man" to politically correct
Christianity, making it less exclusive and more palatable to the nations
because what He actually taught gets in the way of their globalism, i.e.
their false peace agenda (which is ironic, because that's PRECISELY how the
prophets said that Satan would come after the believers, i.e. through false
peace).
-In furtherance of the previous goals, undermine the validity of the books
of the New Testament (and, when possible, the Old Testament) through unfair
criticisms and impossible late-dating so as to eliminate as much of Jesus'
teachings as possible, in particular those related to sin (for the
furtherance of homosexuality and other deviant behaviors), law and order
(for the furtherance of feminism), exclusivity (for the furtherance of
universalism), and eschatology (for the furtherance of globalism). Remove
any reference (especially by Paul or the Gospel writers) to the virgin
birth, Jesus� miracles, Jesus� eternal nature ("Before Abraham was, I Am,"
et al), Jesus� function as the �Lamb of God,� Jesus' divinity, and Jesus�
resurrection.
Like all fraudulent "scholars," the Jesus Seminar started with a goal, and
then set out to rewrite the whole story to meet those goals using entirely
flawed empirical means, as they base their decisions on the OPINIONS OF MEN
who have A PRECONCEIVED OPINION of WHAT OPINION they WANT TO HEAR.
(Unfortunately, the same thing has happened in the churches going the other
way, too.)
This is what makes you "Laodiceans," i.e. not hot or cold, thinking you're
full of wisdom when you're full of foolishness: Your agenda is to create a
"faithless and unfaithful" Jesus you can hold in stasis so He can't
interfere with your desires to recreate the world, and even God Himself, in
your own image.
Nevertheless, Jesus WILL interfere with your agenda...big time...but not
before the damage has been done to your souls.
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000506> wrote in message
> Ignorant "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>>> Egypt,
>>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME
>>> (YAHWEH)." -
>>> Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
>>>
>>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>>> Egypt,
>>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME
>>> (YAHWEH)." -
>>> Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
>>> Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
>>
>> Yes, He did...
>>
>> Act 7:44-45
>
>
But, of course, you had to CUT THE PASSAGE without marking the omission to
TELL YOUR LIE...
Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had
appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the
fashion that he had seen, which also our fathers that came after brought in
WITH JESUS into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before
the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before
God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
(It was Jesus in the pillar of fire and smoke.)
>> Jn 8:56-59
>
> Snippeth MULTIPLE quotes from the same FORGERY - John's gospel - written
> 90 - 120 CE when the apostle John was DEAD!
> See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
You can snip all you want...it's in ALL FOUR GOSPELS, moron.
IT WAS JESUS (or, occasionally, an emissary of Jesus) THE WHOLE TIME, from
beginning to end.
Idiot.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000506> wrote in message
You're the lunatic.
CITE where Jesus and the boys did ANY WORSHIPPING IN THE TEMPLE.
You can't--IT AIN'T IN THERE.
But what IS in there?
THE COMMON PEOPLE WORSHIPPING JESUS, which PISSES YOU OFF, just like it
PISSED OFF THE PHARISEES.
(Then we have the matter of whom Jesus REALLY worshipped, which was HIS
FOLLOWERS.)
Idiot.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/05/09
"I" <me@home000000000000506> wrote in message
> "Ike E 11/05/09" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
>
>
> ... but Ignorant Ike's stopped mind is NEVER right!!!
It's your mind that is "stopped:" You can't get past yourself and recognize
that Jesus spoke of Himself and His existence (as well as that of the
Patriarchs and believers) IN TERMS OF THREE-DIMENSIONAL TIME.
And it's in ALL FOUR GOSPELS, oh, clueless one, not just John's.
Oh, that's right: You fools teach that Jesus was "just a nice guy."
Think again.
Ike
I
>>>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>>>> Egypt,
>>>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME
>>>> (YAHWEH)." -
>>>> Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
>>>>
>>>> "I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of
>>>> Egypt,
>>>> the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME
>>>> (YAHWEH)." -
>>>> Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
>>>> Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
>>>
>>> Yes, He did...
>>> Act 7:44-45
>> NOPE! Jesus of Nazareth isn't even mentioned in that passage!!!
>
> But, of course, you had to CUT THE PASSAGE
NO. I QUOTED the passge from the new Jerusalem bible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
44 'While they were in the desert our ancestors possessed the Tent of
Testimony that had been constructed according to the instructions God gave
Moses, telling him to work to the design he had been shown.
45 It was handed down from one ancestor of ours to another until
JOSHUA brought it into the country that had belonged to the nations which
were driven out by God before us. Here it stayed until the time of David.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=51
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JOSHUA is mentioned in the passage but Jesus of Nazareth is NOT!
New International Version (�1984)
Having received the tabernacle, our fathers under Joshua brought it with
them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It
remained in the land until the time of David,
New American Standard Bible (�1995)
"And having received it in their turn, our fathers brought it in with Joshua
upon dispossessing the nations whom God drove out before our fathers, until
the time of David.
International Standard Version (�2008)
Our ancestors brought it here with Joshua when they replaced the nations
that God drove out in front of our ancestors, and it was here until the time
of David.
GOD'S WORD� Translation (�1995)
After our ancestors received the tent, they brought it into this land. They
did this with Joshua's help when they took possession of the land from the
nations that God forced out of our ancestors' way. This tent remained here
until the time of David,
American Standard Version
Which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they
entered on the possession of the nations, that God thrust out before the
face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Bible in Basic English
Which our fathers, in their turn, took with them when, with Joshua, they
came into the heritage of the nations whom God was driving out before the
face of our fathers, till the time of David,
Darby Bible Translation
which also our fathers, receiving from their predecessors, brought in with
Joshua when they entered into possession of the lands of the nations, whom
God drove out from the face of our fathers, until the days of David;
English Revised Version
Which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they
entered on the possession of the nations, which God thrust out before the
face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Weymouth New Testament
That Tent was bequeathed to the next generation of our forefathers. Under
Joshua they brought it with them when they were taking possession of the
land of the Gentile nations, whom God drove out before them. So it continued
till David's time.
World English Bible
which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they
entered into the possession of the nations, whom God drove out before the
face of our fathers, to the days of David,
Young's Literal Translation
which also our fathers having in succession received, did bring in with
Joshua, into the possession of the nations whom God did drive out from the
presence of our fathers, till the days of David,
I
>>> The objectives of the Jesus Seminar:
>> What would Ignorant Ike know about it????
>
> Notice
Notice how Ignorant Ike has to post ignorant propaganda which is not based
on any truth????
Check teh Jesus seminar out for yourself at http://www.westarinstitute.org/
The REAL objectives of the Jesus Seminar are ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Westar Institute is a member-supported, non-profit research and educational
institute founded in 1986 and dedicated to the advancement of religious
literacy. Westar's twofold mission is to foster collaborative research in
religious studies and to communicate the results of the scholarship of
religion to a broad, non-specialist public.
Why is Westar important?
Until a few years ago, essential knowledge about biblical and religious
traditions was hidden in the windowless studies of universities and
seminaries-away from the general public. Such research was considered too
controversial or too complicated for lay persons to understand. Many
scholars, fearing open conflict or even reprisal, talked only to one
another. The churches often decided what information their constituents were
"ready" to hear.
Through publications, educational programs, and research projects like the
Jesus Seminar, Westar has opened up a new kind of conversation about
religion. This is an honest, no-hold-barred exchange involving thousands of
scholars, clergy and other individuals who have critical questions about the
past, present and future of religion.
Some of the principles guiding the work of Westar are:
a.. All serious questions about religion-including biblical and dogmatic
traditions-deserve research, discussion and resolution; no inquiry should be
out of bounds.
b.. The scholarship of religion should be collaborative in order to expand
the base of decisionmaking, cumulative in forming and building on a
consensus, and genuinely ecumenical
c.. Religion and bible scholars should conduct their deliberations in
public and report the results to a broad, literate audience in simple,
non-technical language
Westar is not affiliated with any religious institution nor does it advocate
a particular theological point of view.
from http://www.westarinstitute.org/Mission/mission.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No wonder Ignorant Ike is SO afraid of them!!!
Barry OGrady
<xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote:
Three ways of expressing the one dimension.
>>>> An "elevator" only goes up and down.
>>
>> Time only goes forward.
>
>We can only experience two of the three parameters of time, i.e. that which
>is temporal.
IOW that which exists.
>That which is eternal is outside the parameters of linear time, and, when
>allowed, those who are eternal can enter into the "river of life" at any
>point, as testified to by Jesus...
>
>"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
>
>"Before Abraham was, I Am."
>
>"If Christ is David's son, how is it he calls him 'Lord.'"
>
>"I Am the root AND offspring of David."
>
>And so on, and so forth.
Ah, so its a fictional story you are writing and you don't want to
give too much away.
Good luck with it, but you need to make it clear you are talking about
pure fiction.
>[snip]
guardian Snow
Mark, your a bright guy... why do you bother? Don't you see the
pointlessness of arguing with these people? You've been doing it for
years now and none of them have changed even a tiny bit... Why?
I'm hoping you can answer this.. your rational.. repeating the same
behaviour over and over again is insanity when you expect a new
result... can't you see it's a waste of time?
Linda Lee
> > Can you be a son (child) of God without receiving Christ as your
> > savior? Answer - no.
>
> This is your answer but the Hebrew understanding of scriptures say
> otherwise. You did not complete the thought written about by John.
Hebrew understanding? You have none. And the poster didn't "complete
the thought"? LOL. What you're accusing them of is what you're about
to do. (Snowjob, aka "guardian Snow", says to Rod, "You will find it
is a common tactic to accuse other people of the very thing you are
guilty of... Excellent thoughts." -
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/msg/0adfc17f981beec2 )
>
> Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
> become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
> Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of
> the desire of man, but of Elohim.
>
> Now notice it does not say whose name except that of Elohim.
You are deliberately twisting the Scriptures. Before and after those
two verses, the person is identified as the Son of God who was the
Creator:
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the
world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
> How is
> it that you continue to deny the name of YAHWEH? Rather than continue
> to tell you what you already know, that “god” is a mistranslation,
> I’ll speak to the Messianic understanding.
"Messianic understanding"? You have none. (Snowjob says: "Christians
refuse to acknowledge that Messiah was only a prophet with the spirit
of Yahweh". - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f15309b6dab272c6
)
<snip rest of Snowjob's lying babble>
guardian Snow
Joh 5:37 “And the Father WHO SENT ME, He bore witness of Me. You have
neither heard His voice at any time, NOR SEEN HIS FORM.
Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and
believes in HIM WHO SENT ME possesses everlasting life, and DOES NOT
come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Look at this, believe HIM WHO SENT ME and you live. Nothing about
crosses and blood and all that good stuff you poor confused PAULINE
worshiping Christians choke on.
I find it interesting that you are preaching a doctrine of Paul after
spending years railing against him but the reality is that you are
unable to support your dogma without apostle Paul.
Joh 7:28 Yehoshua therefore cried out in the Set-apart Place, teaching
and saying, “YOU both KNOW ME, and you know where I am from. And I
have NOT COME OF MYSELF, but HE WHO SENT ME is true, whom YOU DO NOT
KNOW.
None of you trinity believing Pauline Christians could answer the
question who raised the DEAD Jesus.
singin4free
Seems he has a problem similar to yours. And perhaps mine too. Minds
are only changed when people are sincere and open, desiring truth, and
not bent on preserving their own pride. Of course that doesn't mean
being wishy-washy in one's beliefs, just being open to self-criticism
and allowing oneself to be wrong. Really though, God is the one who
changes minds and hearts. He can use our feeble logic or even illogic
sometimes, but in the end no one comes to Yeshua unless the Father
draws him. Oh, and when they do he said "... I will raise him up at
the last day". Yeshua is the one who raises them up. Interesting, no?
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
guardian Snow
Not at all. I find it rather sad that you would make the Messiah into
nothing more then a great ventriloquist speaking to himself.
Mat 12:18 “See, My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My
being did delight. I shall put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall
declare right-ruling to the nations.
That according to you, he is his OWN SERVANT playing head games on the
world by throwing his voice into the heavens to impress the masses...
after all, if he is the all powerful deity you say he is then he
should not need authority given, should sit on the throne, not on the
right and of power and do all things of his own power.
Act 2:24 Whom YHWH hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
You deny YAHWEH raised him up and claim he raised himself from the
dead... You deny the scriptures with the Trinity doctrine.
Joh 12:44 Then Yehoshua cried out and said, “He who believes in Me,
believes NOT IN ME but in Him who sent Me.
Mar 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name
receives Me. And whoever receives Me, RECEIVES ME NOT, but the One WHO
SENT ME.”
You deny the Good News too...
I
> Mark, your a bright guy... why do you bother?
Because others also read.
The only thing required for ignorance to triumph is that intelligent people
do nothing.
I
> God is the one who changes minds and hearts.
For change one requires knowledge. God doesn't impart knowledge out of the
blue. Even clergy need to study for exams. Fundamentalists hink knowledge
comes through some type of "divine osmosis". It doesn't! It never has and
never will. that is why t educators such as myself will always have a job.
> Joh 6:44
Quoting a verse from a forgery written 90 - 100 CE by a person who had never
met the historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth proves nothing. You might
as well quote from your telephone directory.
########################################
From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951] ...
" ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides) p. 14
" ... a wise man will make better use of an idle pamphlet than a fool
will do of sacred Scripture." p. 21
"Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only
because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing
other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes
his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to
another, than the charge and care of their religion." p. 37
"And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the
earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and
prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who
ever knew Truth to be the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting
is the best and surest suppressing." p.51
########################################
guardian Snow
Good reply. Respect.
singin4free
Like many, you make the assumption that so-called fundamentalist
believers have not thought through things and are not well read. Just
because they do not reach the same conclusions you have does not make
them ignorant, unintelligent or uneducated. Perhaps a different form
of ignorance is propagated by so-called progressive religious
educators who expect their subjugated students to be as lemming-like
as their distorted image of what they call fundamentalists.
I
> Like many, you make the assumption that so-called fundamentalist
> believers have not thought through things and are not well read.
That is usually the case and is my experience over the past 40 years. A
Fundamentalist is only a militant angry Evangelical ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Os Guiness, an evangelical Christian, "Fit Bodies, Fat Minds: Why
Evangelicals don't think and what to do about it" ( Baker Books; Grand
Rapids:1994)
...a leading problem in American evangelicalism - anti-intellectualism.
Anti-intellectualism is a disposition to discount the importance of truth
and the life of the mind. ...evangelicals have toned up their bodies and
dumbed down their minds. The result! Many suffer from a modern form of what
the ancient stoics called "mental hedonism" - having fit bodies but fat
minds. ...At root, evangelical anti-intellectualism is both a scandal and a
sin. It is a scandal in the sense of being an offense and a stumbling block
that needlessly hinders seriopus people from considering the Christian faith
and coming to Christ. it is a sin because it is a refusal, contrary to the
first of Jesus' two great commandments, to love the Lord our God with all
our minds. p. 9 -11
Bertrand Russell mocked, "Most Christians would rather die than think - in
fact they do!" p. 12
Critics of evangelical anti-intellectualism commonly quote four great facts
of our shame. First, no general evangelical magazine of serious ideas
exists. Second, no cogent case for the Christin faith has been written by a
living evangelical that can confidently be given to a serious non-Christian
reader. Third, there is no evangelical university worthy of the name that
has a program of graduate studies on par with other major universities.
Fourth, there has been no generally accepted, constructive formulation of an
evangelical public philosophy for the last hundred years. p. 14
Not surprisingly the disarray and frustration is deepest in evangelicals who
think - whether they do so for a living, such as academics, or those who do
so for the love of it, such as artists. p. 15
Those more educated now tend to be significantly less religious, those more
religious tend to be significantly less educated. p. 16
... evangelicals have relied upon populist strengths and rhetoric rather
than addressing the gatekeepers of modern society ... evangelicals have
chosen to rely on a rhetoric of protest, pronouncement, and picketing rather
than persuasion. p. 17 - 18
... slow retreat from the Christian mind to the creation of a "ghost mind."
.... slow rise of a mass mind and the creation of an "idiot culture." p. 25
The false antagonisms of that sort of either / or thinking have become a
standard feature of evangelicalism ... In terms of a Christin mind, we
evangelicals characteristically pit "heart" versus "head" and opt for the
heart as the more spiritual choice. p. 30
... "heart" in the Bible is more a matter of understanding than sentiment -
so "heart" versus "head' is a false choice. p. 31
... the inability to read anything but the shallowest texts is equally
widespread. ... the body of Christ often gives the appearance of the
uncontrolled movements of a paraplegic. p. 72
The result is a form of the faith that is Christian Lite. p. 93
... Christian discourse is beginning to take on some of the characteristics
of tabloid and talk-show truth. For a start, we have our own frenzied
circulation of myths and "psycho-facts" - beliefs hat become true because we
feel they are true even if they are not; or beliefs that are not supported
by hard evidence but are taken as real because their constant repetition
changes the way we view life. p. 116
Let My people think. p. 132
... "All truth is God's truth," so we can welcome truth wherever it is to be
found, even among pagans. But equally, "all that is not of God is not of
truth" and therefore not for us, even if it is we who believe it devoutly.
p. 140
A fourth misconception concerns the idea that thinking Christianly is a form
of uniformity - in other words, that if we all think Christianly we will all
think the same way. Whe this happens, the goal of thinking Christinly
collapses into a frantic search for the one particular correct way of
thinking or acting. The result is he fallacy of "particularism", the
uniformity of a particular "Christianly Correct" way of thinking.
...[particularism] denies two requirements of thinking Christianly that
oppose all uniformity: the importance of diversity and the fact of human
fallibility. p. 143
For another thing, applying the idea of uniformity is disastrous because it
leads inevitably to legalsim and judgementalism. There is only a short and
easy step from "This is the Christian way" to "There is only one Christian
way" to "Anything different from this Christian way is not Christian" to
"All those who differ fom my way are not Christians". p. 143 - 144
One of the greatest sadnesses oif a thinking evangelical is knowing the
thousands who have left, and are still leaving, evangelicalism because
evangelicals do not think. p. 151
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
guardian Snow
> Like many, you make the assumption that so-called fundamentalist
> believers have not thought through things and are not well read. Just
> because they do not reach the same conclusions you have does not make
> them ignorant, unintelligent or uneducated. Perhaps a different form
> of ignorance is propagated by so-called progressive religious
> educators who expect their subjugated students to be as lemming-like
> as their distorted image of what they call fundamentalists.
So, I’ve said, don’t turn to Judaism and I’ve said don’t turn to
Christianity, where do scriptures say to turn?
Isa 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
am Ěl, and there is none else.
Turn to YAHWEH himself. If that leaves you puzzled, ask Yahweh for
knowledge.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of Elohim, who gives
to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.
I’ll warn you now, for me it’s been a bitter pill to swallow. As I
prayed for more understanding of the scriptures, they were answered as
I rested. Usually I would do some reading and then later, as I
pondered the things I learned, all the connections came together, that
I have been wrong and my wisdom made naught, I realized the wonders
and signs that Yahweh was doing in front of me by his word.
Not following Christianity as a doctrine means unplugging from past
understanding of the Roman apostle Paul and the Roman canon of
scriptures, including the book of Hebrews. It doesn’t mean leaving
the teachings of Yehoshua. Keeping to the doctrine of the Chosen ONE
of Israel, we come to a far different understanding that was taught
from his mouth then what “mystery” revelation Paul delivers.
Most people will not recognize that the message of Paul and Yehoshua
do not and cannot agree and to believe the Pharisee teachings of Paul
(Acts 23:6) one must ignore the many warnings against the leaven of
the Pharisees issued by Yehoshua. Of the many doctrines of Paul I
take issue with is:
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another.
Lemmings are of the “same mind” and they all joyfully march on to
their death. As with all things written in Paul’s doctrine they do
NOT agree with the Messiah’s.
Mat 10:16 “See, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.
Therefore be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Many times Paul preached of being of the “same mind”.
Rom 15:6 that with one mind and one mouth,
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort,
be of one mind, live in peace; and the Elohim of love and peace shall
be with you.
Well, I don’t want anybody that I know to be of “one mind” unless that
one is YAHWEH alone and let me tell you a few reasons why I hold this
thought. Without somebody to challenge my ideas, I would never
learn. If you believe I have made a mistake, have your own mind to
step forward and correct me, publically. Not in a spirit of anger and
strife but in the spirit of learning more knowledge. We learn from
our mistakes and that is the purpose of this life is to learn from
them. If I had read even half the opinion I hold now two years ago, I
would have argued I was wrong but now I know that the one who was
wrong is the one in the past.
I make mistakes… I use to think it was true that “Jesus” was the
Almighty and that he was my only Savoir and the “Old Testament” didn’t
apply to me, just as Christians now believe but then people challenged
me in my belief and we were not of “one mind” and I was forced to go
and check my facts and defend my belief. I learned from those who
disagreed with me, not by those who were of “one mind”.
Yahweh gave you a mind and along with that he gave us the power of
choice.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore
choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
We can jump off the bridge with “one mind”:
Rev 17:13 “They have one mind, and they shall give their power and
authority to the beast.
Or we can think with this mind that we have been given and we can
discern the truth:
Pro 19:25 Beat a scoffer, and the simple is made wise; And reprove one
who has understanding, And he discerns knowledge.
Eze 44:23 “And they are to teach My people the difference between the
set-apart and the profane, and cause them to discern what is unclean
and clean.
Simply put, when I make one of my many mistakes, please correct me
publically so that others might learn and let’s discuss the issue
together as brothers but not being of the One minded Lemmings jumping
off the cliff together. Turn me if I’m heading for danger, the
possibilities are there:
Eze 21:21 “For the sovereign of Baḇel shall stand at the parting of
the way, at the fork of the two ways, to practise divination. He shall
shake the arrows, he shall ask the household idols, he shall look at
the liver.
At the fork of two ways (A CHOICE) we have the “sovereign of Babel”
shaking the arrows before us. Rather than being of “one mind”, let us
be many minds working together to find the right way, which is
straight ahead.
Deu 5:32 “And you shall guard to do as Yahweh your Elohim has
commanded you – do not turn aside, to the right or to the left.
Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
reproofs of discipline a way of life,
We have our guide to follow, the Command is our lamp, guard the word
and follow Yahweh.
Deu 8:19 “And it shall be, if you by any means forget Yahweh your
Elohim, and follow other mighty ones, and serve them and bow yourself
to them, I have warned you this day that you shall certainly perish.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- post comments
here
It is in your moments of decision that your destiny is shaped.
Tony Robbins
http://www.e-sword.net/ Free bible software
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James Version
Expect the best. Prepare for the worst. Capitalize on what comes.
Zig Ziglar
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I
> So, I've said, don't turn to Judaism and I've said don't turn to
> Christianity, where do scriptures say to turn?
>
> Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
> am El, and there is none else.
>
>Turn to YAHWEH himself. If that leaves you puzzled, ask Yahweh for
> knowledge.
That is all that is required of any person.
It is SO simple.
It is the basis of Judaism., Christianity and Islam.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"In The Garden" - Van Morrison
(from the album "No Guru, No Method, No Teacher")
... I turned to you and I said
"No guru, no method, no teacher
Just you and I and nature
And the Father in the garden"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
guardian Snow
> "guardian Snow" wrote:
> > So, I've said, don't turn to Judaism and I've said don't turn to
> > Christianity, where do scriptures say to turn?
>
> > Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
> > am El, and there is none else.
>
> >Turn to YAHWEH himself. If that leaves you puzzled, ask Yahweh for
> > knowledge.
>
> That is all that is required of any person.
>
> It is SO simple.
>
> It is the basis of Judaism., Christianity and Islam.
Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and
believes in HIM WHO SENT ME possesses everlasting life, and DOES NOT
come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
It's almost sad that Christians are unable to recognize that even John
said the same message. Nothing about blood and crosses and killing
other men to be forgiven.. Why do they always misinterpret?
They take a simple message and make it so complicated.
singin4free
> "singin4free" <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Like many, you make the assumption that so-called fundamentalist
> > believers have not thought through things and are not well read.
>
> That is usually the case and is my experience over the past 40 years. A
> Fundamentalist is only a militant angry Evangelical ....
>
It seems to me the militant angry ones around here are not the
evangelicals but diverse groups who fall over themselves to express
their hatred of them (and each other). Fundamentalism (in the
Christian sense) simply means belief that the scriptures are true.
There is a certain freedom in believing. If one is released from the
chains of skepticism he can spend less time chasing his intellectual
tail and more time searching out the vastness of the riches of his
Creator.
singin4free
> On Nov 8, 2:02 pm, "I" <me@home000000000000515> wrote:
>
> > "guardian Snow" wrote:
> > > So, I've said, don't turn to Judaism and I've said don't turn to
> > > Christianity, where do scriptures say to turn?
>
> > > Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
> > > am El, and there is none else.
>
Yes we are to turn to Yahweh but how has he told us to do that? He has
given us a specific way. If the children of Israel had not listened to
Moses but said they can seek Yahweh in whatever way they choose, they
would all have been killed by the Angel of Death. In the same way the
Father has ordained that in this dispensation, we are to believe that
Christ died for our sins and rose again. He is our Passover. If we
reject that we are still in our sins, But if we accept it and believe
it with our hearts, we will be saved, like getting into the Ark with
Noah, we are preserved from the flood (that is, death). For Yeshua is
the Ark for today.
Who raised him from the dead? Well, he said:
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days ** I will raise it up. **
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in
building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his **body**.
I
> Fundamentalism (in the Christian sense) simply means belief that the
> scriptures are true.
Blind faith in man-made books is not an option for those with integrity.
Fundamentalism is a recent man-made invention .........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Karen Armstrong "The Battle For God: Fundamentalism in Judaism,
Christianity and Islam" (Harper Perennial: 2000)
[Christians: Brave New World (1492-1870)] ... the new ethos demanded
autonomy and total freedom, and that is what the Protestant reformers
demanded for the Christians of this altered world, who must be free to read
and interpret their Bibles as they chose, without the punitive control of
the Church. p. 65
The Reformed Christian was to stand alone before God, relying simply on his
Bible, but this would not have been possible before the invention of
printing had made it feasible for all Christians to have a Bible of their
own and before the developing literacy of the period enabled them to read
it. p. 66
... paradoxically, the emergence of reason as the sole criterion for truth
in the West coincided with an eruption of religious irrationality. The
great Witch Craze of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries ... p. 75
... the new tendency to sideline or even to jettison reason in some of the
new Protestant movements ( a development that can be traced back to Luther)
led to a disturbing irrationality. pp. 77-78
People who became known as Old Lights, such as the Boston ministers Jonathon
Mayhew (1720-66) and Charles Chauncy (1705-87), believed that Christianity
should be a rational, enlightened faith, were appalled by the hysteria of
the revivals, and distrusted their anti-intellectual bias. p. 80
... the millenial movement founded by the New York farmer William Miller
(1782-1849), who pored over the biblical prophecies, and, in a series of
careful calculations, "proved" in a pamphlet published in 1831 that the
Second Coming of Christ would occur in the year 1843. Miller was reading
his Bible in an essentially modern way. Instead of seeing it as a mythical,
symbolic account of eternal realities, Miller assumed that such narratives
as the Book of Revelation were accurate predictions of immanent events,
which could be worked out with scientific and mathematical precision. People
now read texts for information. Truth must be capable of logical,
scientific demonstration. Miller was treating the mythos of scripture as
though it were logos, and he and his assitant Joshua Hines constantly
stressed the sytematic and scientific nature of Miller's investigations. The
movement was also democratic: anybody could interpret the Bible for him or
herself, and Miller encouraged his followers to challenge his calculations
and come up with theories of their own. pp. 90-91
... the publication of The Origin Of The Species by Means of Natural
Selection in 1859, by Charles Darwin .... the following year, when seven
Anglican clergymen published Essays and Reviews, which made the latest
biblical criticism available to the general reader. Since the late
eighteenth century, German scholars had applied the new techniques of
literary analysis, archeology, and comparative linguistics to the Bible,
subjecting it to a scientific and empirical methodology. They argued that
the first five books of the Bible, traditionally attributed to Moses, were
in fact written much later and by a number of different authors; the book of
Isaiah had at least two different sources, and King David had probably not
written the Psalms. Most of the miracles in the Bible were simply literary
tropes and could not be understood literally; many of the biblical events
were almost certainly not historical. In Essays and Reviews, the British
clerics argued that the Bible must not have special treatment, but should be
subjected to the same critical rigor as any other text. The new "Higher
Criticism" represented the triumph of the rational discourse of logos over
myth. pp. 94-95
[Battle Lines (1870-1900)] ... Many Protestants, who expected their faith to
bring them security, felt mental vertigo in this complicated world. They
wanted a plain-speaking faith that everybody could understand. p. 140
The New Light Presbyterian semninary at Princeton ... In 1837, Charles Hodge
... published Sytemnatic Theology ... Every word of the bible was divinely
inspired and must be taken seriously; it should not be distorted by
allegorical or symbolic exegesis. Charles's son, Archibald A. Hodge, who
took his father's chair in 1878, published a defense of the literal truth of
the Bible in The Princeton Review, with a young colleague, Benjamin
Warfield. The article became a classic. All the stories of the Bible were
"absolutely errorless and binding for faith and obedience." Everything the
Bible said was absolute "truth to the facts." If the Bible said it was
inspired, it was inspired, a circular argument that was anything but
scientific. Such a view had no rational objectivity, was closed to any
alternative, and coherent only within its own terms. pp. 141-142
In 1910, the Presbyterians of Princeton, who had formulated the doctrine of
the infallibility of Scripture, issued a list of five dogmas which they
deemed essential" (1) the inerrancy of Scripture, (2) the Virgin Birth of
Christ, (3) Christ's atonement for our sins on the cross, (4) his bodily
resurrection, and (5) the objective reality of miracles. (This last
doctrine would later be replaced by the teachings of premilenialism.) Next,
the oil millionaires Lyman and Milton Stewart, who had founded the Bible
College of Los Angeles to counter the Higher Criticism in 1908, financed a
project designed to educate the faithful in the central tenents of the
faith. Between 1910 and 1915, they issued a series of twelve paperback
pamphlets entitled The Fundamentals, in which leading conservative
theologians gave accessible accounts of such doctrines as the Trinity,
refute the Higher Criticism, and stressed the imp[ortance of spreading the
truth of the Gospel. ... fundamentalists would see it as the germ of their
movement. p. 171
I
> Yes we are to turn to Yahweh but how has he told us to do that?
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST /
MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth] with all your heart and with all your soul and
with ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the
second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the
Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40
It would therefore seem that loving God with ALL YOUR MIND would be a step
in the right direction ... something fundamentalists do not want to do.
> this dispensation
A man-made invention by John Nelson Darby ..........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Karen Armstrong "The Battle For God: Fundamenrtalism in Judaism,
Christianity and Islam" (Harper Perennial: 2000)
The new apocalyptic vision that took root in America during the late
nineteenth century is called premillenialism, because it envisioned Christ
returning to earth before he established his thousand year reign. (The older
and more optimistic postmillenialism of the Enlightenment, which was
cultivated by liberal Protestants, imagined human beings inaugurating God's
Kingdom by their own efforts: Christ would only return to earth after the
millenium was established.) The new premillenialism was preached in America
by the Englishman John Nelson Darby (1800-82)... Darby divided the whole of
salvation history into seven epochs or "dispensations", a scheme derived
from a careful reading of scripture. pp. 137-138
Darby maintained that just before the beginning of the Tribulation there
would be a "Rapture", a snatching up of born-again Christians, who would be
taken up to heaven and so would escape the terrible sufferings of the Last
Days. ... Premillenialism was a fantasy of revenge: the elect imagined
themselves gazing down on the sufferings of those who had jeered at their
beliefs, ignored, ridiculed, and marginalized their faith, and now, too
late, realized their error. A popular picture found in the homes of many
Protestant fundamentalists today shows a man cutting the grass outside his
house, gazing in astonishment as his born-again wife is raptured out of an
upsatirs window. Like many concrete depictions of mythical events, the
scene looks a little absurd, but the reality it purports to present is
cruel, divisive, and tragic. p. 139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> we are to believe that Christ died for our sins and rose again.
Jesus of Nazareth never stated that. JESUS said ....
"'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST / MESSIAH Jesus
of Nazareth] with all your heart and with all
your soul and with ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the first and greatest
commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew
22:37-40
> Joh 2:19
Quoting verses from a forgery written 90-120 CE by someone (not the apostle
John) who had never met Jesus of Nazareth is not proof of anything.
--
singin4free
> "singin4free" <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Fundamentalism (in the Christian sense) simply means belief that the
> > scriptures are true.
>
> Blind faith in man-made books is not an option for those with integrity.
>
> Fundamentalism is a recent man-made invention .........
>
Faith is not blind. Faith is a window into eternity. Peter said:
"But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar
off" (2Pe 1:9)
Jesus was a fundamentalist. He said "and the scripture cannot be
broken". (John 10:35).
singin4free
> "singin4free" <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes we are to turn to Yahweh but how has he told us to do that?
>
> Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST /
> MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth] with all your heart and with all your soul and
> with ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the
> second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the
> Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40
>
> It would therefore seem that loving God with ALL YOUR MIND would be a step
> in the right direction ... something fundamentalists do not want to do.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy
paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from
evil.
>
> > this dispensation
>
> A man-made invention by John Nelson Darby ..........
Dispensationalism is just a way of organizing the history of God's
relationship with man. It doesn't matter what you call it, or if you
agree with any scholar's order of events. It only matters that God has
dealt with men at different times in different ways.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time
past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he
hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
I
>> Blind faith in man-made books is not an option for those with integrity.
>> Fundamentalism is a recent man-made invention .........
>
> Faith is not blind.
Fundamentalists want one to have blind faith in a BOOK rather than in the
One God Yahweh as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ OF God, commanded in the
Greatest Commandment.
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST /
MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth] with all your heart and with all your soul and
with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest
commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew
22:37-40
It is interesting that Jesus mentions ONLY "the Law (Torah) and the
Prophets" and OMITS the Writings (of which Daniel is one of the books).
The Jewish Bible (Tanach) which Jesus would have used is divided up as
follows:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TORAH - THE LAW
a.. Bereshit - Genesis
b.. Shemot - Exodus
c.. VaYikra - Leviticus
d.. BaMidbar - Numbers
e.. Devarim - Deuteronomy
NEVIIM - THE PROPHETS
a.. Yehoshua - Joshua
b.. Shoftim - Judges
c.. Shmuel A - 1 Samuel
d.. Shmuel B - 2 Samuel
e.. Melachim A - 1 Kings
f.. Melachim B - 2 Kings
g.. Yisheyah - Isaiah
h.. Yermiyah - Jeremiah
i.. Yechezchial - Ezekiel
Treisar - The Minor Prophets
a.. Hoshea - Hosea
b.. Yoel - Joel
c.. Amos - Amos
d.. Ovadiyah - Obadiah
e.. Yonah - Jonah
f.. Michah - Micah
g.. Nachum - Nahum
h.. Chabakuk - Habakkuk
i.. Tzefaniyah - Zephaniah
j.. Chaggi - Haggai
k.. Zechariyah - Zechariah
l.. Malachi - Malachi
KETUVIM - THE WRITINGS
a.. Tehilim - Psalms
b.. Mishlei - Proverbs
c.. Eyov - Job
Megilot
a.. Shir HaShirim - Song of Songs
b.. Ruth - Ruth
c.. Eichah - Lamentations
d.. Keholet - Ecclesiastes
e.. Esther - Esther
d.. Daniyel - Daniel
e.. Ezra - Ezra
f.. Nechemiyah - Nehemiah
g.. Divrei Yamim A - 1 Chronicles
h.. Divrei Yamim B - 2 Chronicles
from http://www.hareidi.org/bible/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Peter said: ...(2Pe 1:9)
Peter said no such thing as he was DEAD at the time of writing - 100-160 CE.
2 Peter is a FORGERY.
> Jesus was a fundamentalist.
Ahistorical nonsense! Fundamentalism only began as a REACTION to biblical
scholarship of the mid 1800s. Fundamentalism didn't exist before that time.
Jesus was a Jew who followed John the Baptist and was probably a Pharisee.
> He said "and the scripture cannot be
> broken". (John 10:35).
Jesus said no such thing!
Geza Vermes, Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford
University, uses almost nothing from John's gospel in determining the gospel
of Jesus in "The Authentic Gospel Of Jesus" (Penguin:2003)
There is almost nothing in John's gospel that can be attributed to the
historic Jesus of Nazareth. The two exceptions are:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 4:43 "A prophet gets no respect on his own turf." (PINK - I would
include this item with reservations (or modifications) in the database /
Jesus probably said something like this.}
John 12:24-25 "I swear to God, unless the kernel of wheat falls to the earth
and dies, it remains a single seed; but if it dies it produces a great
harvest. Those who love life lose it, but those who hate life in this world
will preserve it for unending, real life." (GRAY - I would not include this
item in the database, but I might make use of some of the content in
determining who Jesus was / Jesus did not say this, but the ideas contained
in it are close to his own.)
from Funk, Hoover and the Jesus Seminar's "The Five Gospels" (Polebridge:
1993)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not much in the whole gospel!!!!!
--
I
>> Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT
>> YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST / MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth]
>> with all your heart and with all your soul and with ALL YOUR
>> MIND.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the
>> second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the
>> Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40
>> It would therefore seem that loving God with ALL YOUR MIND
>> would be a step in the right direction ... something fundamentalists do
>> >> not want to do.
...
> Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
> thine own understanding.
1. The "LORD" ONLY references the Exclusive One God Yahweh and NOT Jesus of
Nazareth, the Christ OF God.
2. Trusting in the Exclusuive One God Yahweh is NOT the same as leaving your
brain outside of Christianity and blindly following a man-made book. The
trust is NOT in a bible but in the Exclusive One God Yahweh.
3. God gave you a brain to use. Jesus COMMANDED us to love God WITH ALL OUR
MIND ...
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST /
MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth] with all your heart and with all your soul and
with ALL TYOUR MIND.' Matthew 22:37
To NOT love God with ALL YOUR MIND is a sin.
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From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951] ...
" ... a wise man will make better use of an idle pamphlet than a fool
will do of sacred Scripture." p. 21
"Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only
because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing
other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes
his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to
another, than the charge and care of their religion." p. 37
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>> > this dispensation
>> A man-made invention by John Nelson Darby ..........
>
> Dispensationalism is just a way of organizing the history of God's
> relationship with man.
INVENTED by John Nelson Darby (b1800- d. 1882). It did not exist
beforehand.