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Mixing the Hindu, Yoga and Tantric practices with the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra +~

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May 25, 2016, 10:52:11 AM5/25/16

Mixing 'The Non-Buddhist Schools of India' (Hinduism, Yoga, Tantra,
etc.) With the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra -

________ Table of Contents _______________________

... "The Non-Buddhist Schools of India"

... My Personal Policy

... Mixing Extraneous Practices with
... the Practice of the Lotus Sutra

... Questions and Answers
__________________________________________________

________ "The Non-Buddhist Schools of India" _____

There has recently been evidence that Hinduism, which includes the Yoga
(Asanas or postures which began in the Vedas as prayers) and the Tantra
(Mudras, Mandalas, Mantras and other magic rituals from the Vedas),
which are 4000 year old religious traditions, have become the enemy of
the Lotus Sutra.

For myself, who practiced Yoga as a child of 9 (Richard Hittleman's
"Yoga and Health" on NET/PBS in the 1960s), I never thought of this as a
possibility. However, due to some events recurring enough to overcome my
blind spot of childhood Yoga practice, I turned to the Gosho to try to
find what Nichiren Daishonin thought of this.

There is a section of "The Opening of the Eyes" that is the first place
where I found Nichiren's strong opinion of Hinduism overall, which is
inserted below. Summarizing him, these schools all lead unerringly to
the Three Evil Paths during one's life, and a descent into a hellish
cycle after that. All the pertinent passages are capitalized, for your
quick reading. He doesn't address Hinduism in many Goshos, unlike his
strong opinions on the 4 Dictums (Nembutsu, Zen, Shingon, Ritsu) which
recur frequently. However, Nichiren Daishonin is absolutely clear about
Hinduism in "The Opening of the Eyes".

From "The Opening of the Eyes", WND, p. 221-223:
http://www.sgilibrary.org/view.php?page=221&m=0&q=

... Secondly, we come to the NON-BUDDHIST TEACHINGS OF
... INDIA. IN BRAHMANISM we find the two deities: Shiva, who
... has three eyes and eight arms, and Vishnu. They are
... hailed as the loving father and compassionate mother of
... all living beings and are also called the Honorable Ones
... of Heaven and sovereigns. In addition, there are three
... men, Kapila, Uluka, and Rishabha, [Note 15: Kapila and
... Uluka were the respective founders of the SAMKHYA and
... VAISHESHIKA schools, two of the six major schools of
... Brahmanism in ancient India. Rishabha's teachings are
... said to have PREPARED THE WAY FOR JAINISM. They were
... called the three ascetics.] who are known as the three
... ascetics. These ascetics lived somewhere around eight
... hundred years before the time of the Buddha. The
... teachings expounded by the three ascetics are known as
... the four Vedas and number sixty thousand.

... Later, in the time of the Buddha, there were the six
... non-Buddhist teachers who studied and transmitted these
... non-Buddhist scriptures and acted as tutors to the kings
... of the five regions of India. Their teachings split into
... ninety-five or ninety-six different lines, forming
... school after school. The banners of their pride were
... raised higher than the heaven where there is neither
... thought nor no thought, [Note 16: The world of
... formlessness being divided into four realms, this refers
... to the uppermost.] and their dogmatic rigidity was
... harder than metal or stone. But in their skill and depth
... of understanding, they surpassed anything known in
... Confucianism. They were able to perceive two, three, or
... even seven existences, a period of eighty thousand
... kalpas, into the past, and they likewise knew what would
... happen eighty thousand kalpas in the future. AS THE
... FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF THEIR DOCTRINE, SOME OF THESE
... SCHOOLS TAUGHT THAT CAUSES PRODUCE EFFECTS, OTHERS
... TAUGHT THAT CAUSES DO NOT PRODUCE EFFECTS, WHILE STILL
... OTHERS TAUGHT THAT CAUSES BOTH DO AND DO NOT PRODUCE
... EFFECTS. SUCH WERE THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF THESE
... NON-BUDDHIST SCHOOLS.

... The devout followers of the non-Buddhist teachings
... observe the five precepts and the ten good precepts,
... practice the kind of meditation that is still
... accompanied by outflows, and, ascending to the worlds of
... form and formlessness, [Note 17: "Outflows" here means
... illusions or defilements. The worlds of form and
... formlessness are the two highest worlds of the threefold
... world.] [THEY] BELIEVE THEY HAVE ATTAINED NIRVANA WHEN
... THEY REACH THE HIGHEST OF THE HEAVENS. BUT ALTHOUGH THEY
... MAKE THEIR WAY UPWARD BIT BY BIT LIKE AN INCHWORM, THEY
... FALL BACK FROM THE HEAVEN WHERE THERE IS NEITHER THOUGHT
... NOR NO THOUGHT, AND DESCEND INSTEAD INTO THE THREE EVIL
... PATHS. NOT A SINGLE ONE SUCCEEDS IN REMAINING ON THE
... LEVEL OF THE HEAVENS, THOUGH THEY BELIEVE THAT ONCE
... HAVING ATTAINED THAT LEVEL THEY WILL NEVER DESCEND FROM
... IT. Each approves and practices the doctrines taught by
... his teacher and firmly abides by them. Thus some of them
... bathe three times a day in the Ganges even on cold
... winter days, while others pull out the hairs on their
... head, fling themselves against rocks, expose themselves
... to fire, burn their bodies, or go about stark naked.
... Again there are those who believe they can gain good
... fortune by sacrificing many horses, or who burn grasses
... and trees, or make obeisance to every tree they
... encounter.

... ERRONEOUS TEACHINGS SUCH AS THESE ARE TOO NUMEROUS TO BE
... COUNTED. Their adherents pay as much respect and honor
... to the teachers who propound them as the heavenly
... deities pay to the lord Shakra, or the court ministers
... pay to the ruler of the empire. BUT NOT A SINGLE PERSON
... WHO ADHERES TO THESE NINETY-FIVE TYPES OF HIGHER OR
... LOWER NON-BUDDHIST TEACHINGS EVER ESCAPES FROM THE CYCLE
... OF BIRTH AND DEATH. THOSE WHO FOLLOW TEACHERS OF THE
... BETTER SORT WILL, AFTER TWO OR THREE REBIRTHS, FALL INTO
... THE EVIL PATHS, WHILE THOSE WHO FOLLOW EVIL TEACHERS
... WILL FALL INTO THE EVIL PATHS IN THEIR VERY NEXT
... REBIRTH.

... And yet the main point of these non-Buddhist teachings
... constitutes an important means of entry into Buddhism.
... Some of them state, "A thousand years from now, the
... Buddha will appear in the world," [Note 18: Possibly a
... rephrasing of a passage in the Nirvana Sutra.] while
... others state, "A hundred years from now, the Buddha will
... appear in the world." [Note 19: Possibly a rephrasing of
... a passage in the Nirvana Sutra.] The Nirvana Sutra
... remarks, "All of the non-Buddhist scriptures and
... writings in society are themselves Buddhist teachings,
... not non-Buddhist teachings." And in the Lotus Sutra it
... is written, "Before the multitude they seem possessed of
... the three poisons or manifest the signs of distorted
... views. My disciples in this manner use expedient means
... to save living beings." [Note 20: Lotus Sutra, chap. 8.]

From "The Opening of the Eyes", WND, p. 264:
http://www.sgilibrary.org/view.php?page=264&m=0&q=

... THE NON-BUDDHIST SCHOOLS OF SUCH MEN AS VATSA AND
... VAIPULYA, WHICH APPEARED IN INDIA AFTER THE BUDDHA'S
... PASSING, ARE EVEN MORE WRONG IN THEIR VIEWS AND MORE
... CUNNING IN THEIR DOCTRINES THAN THEIR COUNTERPARTS
... BEFORE THE BUDDHA [BECAUSE THEY BORROWED IDEAS FROM
... BUDDHISM]. Similarly, since the introduction of Buddhism
... to China in the Later Han dynasty, non-Buddhist views
... and writings have become even more wrong and cunning
... than the pre-Buddhist writings of Confucianism that deal
... with the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors of
... antiquity. ALSO THE TEACHERS OF THE FLOWER GARLAND,
... DHARMA CHARACTERISTICS, TRUE WORD, AND OTHER SCHOOLS,
... JEALOUS OF THE CORRECT DOCTRINES OF THE T'IEN-T'AI
... SCHOOL, BRAZENLY INTERPRET THE WORDS OF THE TRUE SUTRA
... IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY WILL ACCORD WITH THE PROVISIONAL
... TEACHINGS.

... THOSE WHO SEEK THE WAY, HOWEVER, SHOULD REJECT SUCH ONE-
... SIDED VIEWS, TRANSCENDING DISPUTES BETWEEN ONE'S OWN
... SCHOOL AND OTHERS, AND SHOULD NOT TREAT OTHERS WITH
... CONTEMPT.

... IN THE LOTUS SUTRA THE BUDDHA SAYS, "AMONG THE SUTRAS I
... HAVE PREACHED, NOW PREACH, AND WILL PREACH, [THIS LOTUS
... SUTRA IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE AND THE MOST
... DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND]." [NOTE 173: LOTUS SUTRA, CHAP.
... 10.]

... MIAO-LO REMARKS: "THOUGH OTHER SUTRAS MAY CALL
... THEMSELVES THE KING AMONG SUTRAS, THERE IS NONE THAT
... ANNOUNCES ITSELF AS FOREMOST AMONG ALL THE SUTRAS
... PREACHED IN THE PAST, NOW BEING PREACHED, OR TO BE
... PREACHED IN THE FUTURE." [NOTE 174: ON "THE WORDS AND
... PHRASES."] HE ALSO SAYS: "CONCERNING [THE BUDDHA'S
... STATEMENT] THAT THIS WONDERFUL SUTRA SURPASSES ALL THOSE
... OF PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE, THERE ARE THOSE WHO
... PERSIST IN GOING ASTRAY. THUS THEY COMMIT THE GRAVE
... FAULT OF SLANDERING THE SUTRA AND FOR MANY LONG KALPAS
... ARE SUBJECTED TO SUFFERINGS." [NOTE 175: THE ANNOTATIONS
... ON "THE PROFOUND MEANING OF THE LOTUS SUTRA."]

From the Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism:
http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=2318

... THREE EVIL PATHS

... (Jpn.: san-akudo or san-akushu)

... Also, three evil paths of existence. The realms of hell,
... hungry spirits, and animals, the lowest three of the six
... paths. The three evil paths are the realms of suffering
... into which one falls as a result of evil deeds. "Path"
... here means state or realm of existence.

So, Nichiren Daishonin states clearly that these views are incorrect,
and yet we must NOT treat their followers with contempt, which I do not:
because they are Buddhas.

________ My Personal Policy ______________________

My personal policy is to inform the people of what slander of the Law
really entails (like a warning label on a pack of cigarettes) and to
point them in the right direction [with the intent to abolish human
misery, through the total abolition of slander of the Law, total
abolition of slander of the Lotus Sutra, total abolition of slander of
the Gohonzon, total abolition of slander of the Three Treasures and the
Sangha, and finally, the total abolition of slander of Nichiren
Buddhism.]

Others, once informed and redirected, are free agents.

[As an aside: I have come to believe that there must be a purpose to the
poison in the world which arises solely from slander of the Law, even
though I have zero tolerance for slander of the Law personally. Once
that vast body of poison of doubt is transformed into the medicine of
faith in the Lotus Sutra, what a wonderful world it will be ! The
Buddhas in the Ten Directions (also known as the World of Living Beings)
have seen fit, in their wisdom, to generate an entirely humongous
quantity of poison through a seemingly endless variety of slanders, to
what end I cannot imagine. I defer to their enlightened wisdom on their
choice of path. My best guess is that it has something to with a
similarity to the conservation Laws of Physics, where the mass of poison
is converted into the energy of faith (with a similarly large conversion
factor like the speed of light squared in e=mc^2):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_laws
If so, we must be needing a truly vast amount of faith in the future to
face some great challenge: to require this much poison to be created
now.]

________ Mixing Extraneous Practices with ________
________ the Practice of the Lotus Sutra _________

I have also inserted below, my friend Jeff's favorite passage from
"Letter to Akimoto", which states Nichiren Daishonin's clear position
against mixing the practice of the Lotus Sutra (primarily Daimoku) with
any other extraneous practice.

From "Letter to Akimoto", WND, p. 1014:
http://www.sgilibrary.org/view.php?page=1014&m=0&q=

... A VESSEL IS A KIND OF UTENSIL. Because the great earth
... is hollowed out, water collects on it; and because the
... blue sky is pure, the moon shines in it. When the moon
... rises, the water glows with a pure light; and when the
... rain falls, the plants and trees flourish.

... A vessel is hollowed out like the earth, and water can
... be collected in it the way water is stored in a pond.
... And the reflection of the moon floats on the surface of
... the water in the same way that the Lotus Sutra pervades
... our being.

... BUT A VESSEL IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO FOUR FAULTS. The first is
... being upset or covered, which means that the vessel can
... be overturned or covered with a lid. The second is
... leaking, which means that the water leaks out. The third
... is being defiled, which means that the contents can be
... contaminated. Though the water itself may be pure, if
... filth is dumped into it, then the water in the vessel
... ceases to be of any use. THE FOURTH IS BEING MIXED. If
... rice is mixed with filth or pebbles or sand or dirt,
... then it is no longer fit for human consumption.

... THE VESSEL HERE STANDS FOR OUR BODIES AND MINDS. Our
... minds are a kind of vessel, and our mouths too are
... vessels, as are our ears. The Lotus Sutra is the Dharma
... water of the Buddha's wisdom. But when this water is
... poured into our minds, then we may jar and upset it. Or
... we may shut it out by placing our hands over our ears,
... determined not to listen to it. Or we may spit it out of
... our mouths, determined not to let our mouths chant it.
... In such cases, we are like a vessel that has overturned
... or has had a lid placed on it.

... Again, ALTHOUGH WE MAY HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FAITH,
... WE MAY ENCOUNTER EVIL INFLUENCES AND FIND OUR FAITH
... WEAKENING. Then we will deliberately abandon our faith,
... or, even though we maintain our faith for a day, we will
... set it aside for a month. IN SUCH CASES, WE ARE LIKE
... VESSELS THAT LET THE WATER LEAK OUT.

... OR WE MAY BE THE KIND OF PRACTITIONERS OF THE LOTUS
... SUTRA WHOSE MOUTHS ARE RECITING NAM-MYOHORENGE- KYO ONE
... MOMENT, BUT NAMU AMIDA BUTSU THE NEXT. THIS IS LIKE
... MIXING FILTH WITH ONE'S RICE, OR PUTTING SAND OR PEBBLES
... IN IT. THIS IS WHAT THE LOTUS SUTRA IS WARNING AGAINST
... WHEN IT SAYS, "DESIRING ONLY TO ACCEPT AND EMBRACE THE
... SUTRA OF THE GREAT VEHICLE AND NOT ACCEPTING A SINGLE
... VERSE OF THE OTHER SUTRAS." [NOTE 1: LOTUS SUTRA, CHAP.
... 3.]

... THE LEARNED AUTHORITIES IN THE WORLD TODAY SUPPOSE THAT
... THERE IS NO HARM IN MIXING EXTRANEOUS PRACTICES WITH THE
... PRACTICE OF THE LOTUS SUTRA, AND I, NICHIREN, WAS ONCE
... OF THAT OPINION MYSELF. BUT THE PASSAGE FROM THE SUTRA
... [THAT I HAVE JUST QUOTED] DOES NOT PERMIT SUCH A VIEW.
... Suppose that a woman who had been the consort of a great
... king and had become pregnant with his seed should then
... turn round and marry a man of common stature. In such a
... case, the seed of the king and the seed of the commoner
... would become mixed together, and as a result, the aid
... and assistance of heaven and the protection of the
... patron deities [Note 2: "The patron deities" refers to
... the tutelary god of a clan. The Minamoto clan, for
... example, revered Great Bodhisattva Hachiman as their
... tutelary deity.] would be withdrawn, and the kingdom
... would face ruin. The child born from two such fathers
... would be neither a king nor a commoner, but someone who
... belongs not to the human realm.

... This is one of the most important points in the Lotus
... Sutra. The doctrine of the sowing of the seed and its
... maturing and harvesting [Note 3: Reference is to the
... three phases of the process by which a Buddha leads
... people to Buddhahood, corresponding to the growth and
... development of a plant. First the Buddha plants the
... seeds of Buddhahood in people?s lives, then he nurtures
... them by helping them practice the Law, and finally he
... enables them to fully manifest Buddhahood.] is the very
... heart and core of the Lotus Sutra. All the Buddhas of
... the three existences and the ten directions have
... invariably attained Buddhahood through the seeds
... represented by the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo.
... The words Namu Amida Butsu are not the seeds of
... Buddhahood, nor can the mantras or the five precepts act
... as such seeds. One must be perfectly clear about this
... point, because this is the fault referred to as being
... mixed.

... IF A VESSEL IS FREE OF THESE FOUR FAULTS OF OVERTURNING,
... LEAKING, BEING DEFILED, AND BEING MIXED, THEN IT CAN BE
... CALLED A PERFECT VESSEL. IF THE EMBANKMENTS AROUND A
... MOAT DO NOT LEAK, THEN THE WATER WILL NEVER ESCAPE FROM
... THE MOAT. AND IF THE MIND OF FAITH IS PERFECT, THEN THE
... WATER OF WISDOM, THE GREAT IMPARTIAL WISDOM, WILL NEVER
... DRY UP.

Hence, mixing any practice of "The Non-Buddhist Schools of India" in any
form with the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra is a direct slander of the
text of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism.

________ Questions and Answers ___________________

I pose the obvious questions and present my arguments below. [There is
much more abundant evidence on Wikipedia, I have included just enough to
make the case.]

QUESTION #1. Is Hinduism the "Non-Buddhist Schools of India" that
Nichiren Daishonin talks about in the "Opening of the Eyes", which he
states will lead unerringly into the Three Evil Paths of Hell, Hunger
and Animality?

Yes, see the quotation from that Gosho inserted above. [with sections
highlighted, only intending to focus on the key passages related to this
question.] Note the discussion of the various schools of Brahminism:
that is Hinduism.

QUESTION #2. Is Yoga really Hinduism, which Nichiren Daishonin called
"the non-Buddhist teachings of India" in the Gosho "The Opening of the
eyes" ... by that I mean is Yoga a Hindu religious practice?

From the Wikipedia.org on "Yoga":

... Yoga is a family of ancient spiritual practices that
... originated in India, where it remains a vibrant living
... tradition and is seen as a means to enlightenment. Karma
... Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga, and Raja Yoga are
... considered the four main yogas, but there are many other
... types. In other parts of the world where yoga is
... popular, notably the West, Yoga has become associated
... with the asanas (postures) of Hatha Yoga, which are
... popular as fitness exercises. Yoga as a means to
... enlightenment is central to Vedanta, Hinduism, Buddhism,
... Sikhism and Jainism, and has influenced other religious
... and spiritual practices throughout the world. IMPORTANT
... HINDU TEXTS ESTABLISHING THE BASIS FOR YOGA INCLUDE THE
... UPANISHADS, YOGA SUTRAS OF PATANJALI, THE BHAGAVAD GITA,
... AND THE HATHA YOGA PRADIPIKA.

So, the answer is yes, Yoga is hinduism. Even the modern versions with
the Vedic references scraped off is still a practice of Hinduism. Does
chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, even once, require someone to know the
Lotus Sutra, for it to have the effect of Buddhahood? No. (According to
Nichiren.)

Hence, the practice of Yoga that is Hinduism, even without the prayer
references to the Vedic teachings of Hinduism, will lead to the three
evil paths (according to Nichiren Daishonin in the passage from the
"Opening of the Eyes", above.)

Also, there are YOGA SUTRAS listed there in that last sentence above:
they are called "sutras", which are by definition Buddhist teachings,
but they are provisional sutras that the Buddha specifically stated that
we should discard in favor of the Lotus Sutra. These provisional
teachings and practices of them are excluded from our practice by
Nichiren Daishonin's statement from "The Opening of the Eyes":

... In the Lotus Sutra the Buddha says, "Among the sutras I
... have preached, now preach, and will preach, [this Lotus
... Sutra is the most difficult to believe and the most
... difficult to understand]." [Note 173: Lotus Sutra, chap.
... 10.]

... Miao-lo remarks: "Though other sutras may call
... themselves the king among sutras, there is none that
... announces itself as foremost among all the sutras
... preached in the past, now being preached, or to be
... preached in the future." [Note 174: On "The Words and
... Phrases."] He also says: "Concerning [the Buddha's
... statement] that this wonderful sutra surpasses all those
... of past, present, and future, there are those who
... persist in going astray. Thus they commit the grave
... fault of slandering the sutra and for many long kalpas
... are subjected to sufferings." [Note 175: The Annotations
... on "The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra."]

Worse yet, Yoga is not only Hinduism, it is also Buddhism.

There is recent information regarding Yoga, which has surfaced from the
recently released volume two of the Writings of Nichiren Daishonin (WND
II, p. 1036).

Nichiren Daishonin (in the Rooster Diagram) lists the five periods as:

... 1. Preaching the Flower Garland Sutra, 21 days.

... 2. Preaching the Agama sutras (Hinayana), 12 years.

... 3. Preaching the Correct and Equal sutras and

... 4. Preaching the Wisdom sutras (provisional Mahayana), [
... periods 2 & 3 together ] 30 years.

... 5. Preaching the Lotus Sutra (preceded by the
... Immeasurable Meanings Sutra), 8 years, and Preaching the
... Nirvana Sutra, one day and one night.

Under the Correct and Equal sutras Nichiren includes the following
treatise:

From the "Rooster Diagram of the Five Periods of the Buddha's Lifetime
Teachings", WND II, p. 1036:

... The Treatise on the Stages of Yoga Practice
....... 100 volumes
....... spoken by Bodhisattva Maitreya and recorded by Bodhisattva
Asanga

Hence, Nichiren Daishonin specifically includes Yoga as a provisional
Mahayana practice, which is extraneous to the practice of the Lotus
Sutra.

Furthermore, Nichiren Daishonin lists the Yoga Sutras of Bodhisattva
Maitreya with the teachings of the 3rd provisional Mahayana period of
the Buddha's teachings, and the Yoga sutras would be then be considered
a "connecting teaching", or introductory Mahayana (we are way past the
time for anything good coming from this). Those sutras had the
provisional intent of connecting Brahmin believers with the Buddha's
teachings, and were not intended to hang around after the Buddha
revealed the truth in the Lotus Sutra.

All of the provisional teachings of the first 4 periods, and their
practices, have in fact become the enemies of the Lotus Sutra, without
exception, now that the Lotus Sutra has spread widely with the SGI into
all the countries of the world.

Are these accidental inclusions, listing the Yoga Sutras as a connecting
teaching? I think not.

From "When the Roots Are Exposed, the Branches Wither", WND II, p. 1085:

... The Three Treatises school too is founded on texts that
... are lacking in reason. If persons who are blind
... encounter its teachings, they are led into error. But if
... wise persons of clear vision do so, then the falsity of
... its doctrines becomes apparent. When the roots are
... exposed, the branches wither; when the springs dry up,
... the current ceases to flow-such is the natural
... principle.

... The Nembutsu school, the Zen school, and the True Word
... school have roots that are founded in error and their
... springs lead to deception. But if their roots and their
... springs are exposed to view, though this may be done by
... so lowly a person as I, Nichiren, then, so long as
... Heaven's design is to bring about a time when the great
... Law will spread abroad, those evil teachings will be
... defeated and the true Law will be established-there can
... be no doubt of this.

... Do you realize that already the time is at hand when
... these evil teachings will vanish? I may be despised and
... mercilessly hounded ...

I think that Nichiren left little to chance. So, the previous discossion
(before the Yoga Sutras quote of Nichiren) is merely to explain why he
includes a treatise on Hindu practices in a list of works of the first 4
periods to "honestly discard" (Entity of the Mystic Law, WND p. 430),
and why we should not be "mixing extraneous practices with the practice
of the Lotus Sutra" (Letter to Akimoto, WND pp. 1014-1015).

It is really the Rooster Diagram that seals the fate of Yoga, by
classifying it as a provisional practice.

The Hindus claim different authorship and a later time than Maitreya?s
and Asanga?s. They claim Patanjali "collected" them around 200 BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras.

If so, someone else authored them and Nichiren claims that someone is
the Bodhisattvas Maitreya and Asanga. I prefer to agree with Nichiren
Daishonin on these issues, and all others regarding Nichiren's Buddhism
of the Lotus Sutra.

QUESTION #3. Has the Tantric influence on Yoga permeated all the modern
schools of Yoga?

From the Wikipedia.org on "Tantra":

... TANTRA (Sanskrit: "weave"), TANTRIC YOGA OR TANTRISM is
... any of several esoteric traditions rooted in the
... religions of India. It exists in Hindu, Buddhist, Jain,
... Bönpo, and New Age forms. Tantra has persisted and often
... thrived throughout Asian history. Its practitioners have
... lived in India, China, Japan, Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan,
... Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Korea, Cambodia, Burma, Indonesia
... and Mongolia. NO FORM OF MEDIEVAL HINDUISM, BUDDHISM, OR
... JAINISM HAS BEEN WITHOUT A TANTRIC COMPONENT. Some South
... Asian Islamic traditions have also borne a tantric
... stamp.

... David Gordon White, while cautioning us about attempting
... a rigorous definition of what for centuries has defied
... such attempts, offers the following working definition:

....... [It] is that Asian body of beliefs and practices
....... which, working from the principle that the universe
....... we experience is nothing other than the concrete
....... manifestation of the divine energy of the godhead
....... that creates and maintains that universe, seeks to
....... ritually appropriate and channel that energy within
....... the human microcosm in creative and emancipatory
....... ways.

... In its Hindu forms, TANTRA CAN BE SUMMARIZED AS A FAMILY
... OF VOLUNTARY RITUALS MODELED ON THOSE OF THE VEDAS,
... TOGETHER WITH THEIR ATTENDANT TEXTS AND LINEAGES. These
... rituals typically involve the visualization of a deity,
... offerings (real or visualized), and the chanting of his
... or her mantra. These practices are usually said to
... require permission from a qualified teacher or guru who
... belongs to a legitimate guruparampara or teacher-student
... lineage. Thus tantra shares some similarities with yoga.

NOTE THAT THE VEDAS [The newest parts of the Vedas are estimated to date
to around 500 BCE; the oldest text (RigVeda) found is now dated to
around 1500 BCE - Wikipedia.org] AND UPANISHADS [The oldest Upanishads
are the Bºhadâranyaka and the Chhândogya ones, dating to the "Brahmana"
period of Vedic Sanskrit (from roughly 900 BCE). A second stratum
belongs to the "Sutra" period (from roughly 600 BCE), including the
Katha and Maitrâyani ones. - Wikipedia] ARE THE CORE TEXTS OF THE HINDU
RELIGION. THE BHAGAVAD GITA [Scholars place the actual writing of the
Gita in the latter half of the 1st millennium BC (roughly 4th century
BC), making it a contemporary of the older Upanishads.- Wikipedia] IS A
LATER WORK. THE VARIOUS SCHOOLS AND PRACTICES AND RELIGIOUS
UNDERPINNINGS OF YOGA ARE DESCRIBED IN ALL THREE OF THESE HINDU
RELIGIOUS WORKS.

ALSO NOTE THAT THE SAME SECTION ON "TANTRA" IN THE WIKIPEDIA.ORG, HAS A
SECTION ON THE SHINGON [TRUE WORD] SECT OF BUDDHISM. THIS IS THE SAME
SHINGON THAT NICHIREN DAISHONIN SAID "WILL DESTROY THE COUNTRY" in
"Letter to Akimoto", WND p. 1016:

... But I, Nichiren, one man alone, declare that the
... recitation of the name of Amida Buddha is an action that
... leads to rebirth in the hell of incessant suffering,
... that the Zen school is the invention of the heavenly
... devil, that the True Word school is an evil doctrine
... that will destroy the country, and that the Precepts
... school and the observers of the precepts are traitors to
... the nation.

So, the answer is yes, Tantra became Tantric Buddhism and has influenced
all distortions of Buddhism that developed in the medieval age in the
Near and Far East and are practiced now.

That EXCLUDES the pure practice of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the
Lotus Sutra, because we follow the original teaching prior to the Tantra
influence. And because Nichiren Daishonin's practice is from the Lotus
Sutra, alone. This is why it IS our PRACTICE to follow the Law and NOT
to rely on or replace that Law with the minds of others, no matter how
wonderful a leader they are.

QUESTION #4. Isn't this just a bunch of theoretical stuff? Why should I
worry?

Study is one of the Three PRACTICES. (And is not theoretical.)

Nichiren Daishonin is in identity with Bodhisattva Jogyo "Superior
Practices" (on the top row on the Gohonzon, to the right of Nam-Myoho-
Renge-Kyo, right of Taho Buddha "Many Treasures" and left of Bodhisattva
Muhengyo "Boundless Practices). The correct PRACTICE of Buddhism in the
Latter Day of the Law, is Nichiren Daishonin's practice. To be a
Bodhisattva of the Earth in that assembly, you must follow Jogyo, whom
the Buddha appointed as our leader during the Ceremony in the Air in the
Lotus Sutra.

Nichiren's practice is according to the Gosho, which is a document
completely devoted to practice. (Unlike T'ien T'ai's theoretical works).
Nothing about the Gosho is "theoretical". It is all actual, all
practical, and all about PRACTICE.

QUESTION #5. You quote the Wikipedia a lot, is that a reliable source?

Some time ago, the New York Times was quoted in discussing a study of
the two by the scientific journal Nature:

... Yet Nature's investigation suggests that Britannica's
... advantage may not be great, at least when it comes to
... science entries. In the study, entries were chosen from
... the Web sites of Wikipedia and Encyclopedia. Britannica
... on a broad range of scientific disciplines, and sent to
... a relevant expert for peer review.

... Each reviewer examined the entry on a single subject
... from the two encyclopedias; they were not told which
... article came from which encyclopedia. A total of 42
... usable reviews were returned out of 50 sent out, and
... were then examined by Nature's news team. Only eight
... serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important
... concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles
... reviewed, four from each encyclopedia. But reviewers
... also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading
... statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica,
... respectively.

Britannica has busily refuted this, due to the fact that they are very
pricey and Wikipedia is free. Wikipedia will most likely close the gap
on quality and scope over time. Correctness is difficult for all
historical tertiary sources, like encyclopedias and textbooks.

However, the Wikipedia sections on Yoga were contributed by experts on
the subject. And they have been reviewed by millions of eyeballs. And
all the other sources (those sources are copyrighted with restricted
usage, which is why I quote the Wikipedia) agree with the Wikipedia
entry.

-Chas.
_________________________________________________

LS Chap. 16 ...

You who are possessed of wisdom,
entertain no doubts on this point!
Cast them off, end them forever,
for the Buddha's words are true, not false.

Related posts:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.zen/disbasing$20zen

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

iainx...@gmail.com

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May 26, 2016, 3:05:27 PM5/26/16

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May 29, 2016, 7:56:41 PM5/29/16

Thanks "Chas". There is a lot of conjecture and reasoning in you post but little of substance.

As for Mark's intervention, causation is entirely relevant, unless of course you don't understand or don't believe the last section of the Hoben pon chapter you chant at least 3 times each times you do Gongyo.

Let me refesh your memory before I turn to your post below and refute you based on Gosho. Here is the English translation of the section Shoi sho ho...nyo ze honmak kukyo to.

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/2

"This reality consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning to end.”

I think even you "Chas" will have to agree that everything has to take place within reality and that it is therefore impossible to seperate the ten factors of internal cause, relation, latent effect and manifest effect, particularly the last two as you would suggest Mark does. As the Sutra and Buddha says "and their consistency from beginning to end".

The SGI Buddhist Dictionary, of which you are so beloved, puts it this way:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/49

Briefly, the ten factors are as follows:
(1) Appearance: attributes of things discernible from the outside, such as color, form, shape, and behavior.
(2) Nature: the inherent disposition or quality of a thing or being that cannot be discerned from the outside. T’ien-t’ai characterizes it as unchanging and irreplaceable. The nature of fire, for instance, is unchanging and cannot be replaced by that of water. He also refers to the “true nature,” which he regards as the ultimate truth, or Buddha nature.
(3) Entity: the essence of life that permeates and integrates appearance and nature. These first three factors describe the reality of life itself.

The next six factors, from the fourth, power, through the ninth, manifest effect, explain the functions and workings of life. (4) Power: life’s potential energy.
(5) Influence: the action or movement produced when life’s inherent power is activated.
(6) Internal cause: the cause latent in life that produces an effect of the same quality as itself, i.e., good, evil, or neutral. (7) Relation: the relationship of indirect causes to the internal cause. Indirect causes are various conditions, both internal and external, that help the internal cause produce an effect.
(8) Latent effect: the effect produced in life when an internal cause is activated through its relationship with various conditions.
(9) Manifest effect: the tangible, perceivable result that emerges in time as an expression of a latent effect and therefore of an internal cause, again through its relationship with various conditions. Miao-lo regarded the Buddhist law of causality described by the four factors from internal cause to manifest effect as the distinctive characteristic of the ten factors. It concerns the cause and effect for attaining Buddhahood.
(10) Consistency from beginning to end: the unifying factor among the ten factors. It indicates that all of the other nine factors from the beginning (appearance) to the end (manifest effect) are consistently and harmoniously interrelated. All nine factors thus consistently and harmoniously express the same condition of existence at any given moment.

Now let me turn to refuting the SGI teaching in question. I will also pick up points from your post below and it's misunderstanding based on your shallow and fragmented understanding of how reality works, as described by the Sutra, Tien Tai (Zhi Yi) and Nichiren.

I urge you to consult Gosho directly and chant Daimoku based directly on the mechanism Nichiren prescribes for inheriting the Law (transmission), even momentarily suspending your deeply held belief that the Law somehow comes to you from an external agent (mentor-disciple transmission).

You maybe very surprised by what happens and should you attain the Law by such bold action. Nothing would please me more, in fact not only I will rejoice but you will be patted on the head by the Buddhas of the ten directions.

So to the passage in question.

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice. If we forget the mentor-disciple relationship, we cannot attain Buddhahood. Nor can we achieve eternal happiness or realise kosen rufu. For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is transmitted. Buddhism is the Law of life; and the Law of life cannot be transmitted through words and concepts alone." (Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)

Let's take the first line and refute it first using the Gosho this lecture purports to "lecture" on.

What does Nichiren say about inheriting the Law, it's transmission?

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/29

"Have just carefully read your letter. To reply, the ultimate Law of life and death as transmitted from the Buddha to all living beings is Myoho-renge-kyo. The five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo were transferred from Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, the two Buddhas inside the treasure tower, to BodhisattvaSuperior Practices, carrying on a heritage unbroken since the infinite past. Myō represents death, and hō,life. Living beings that pass through the two phases of life and death are the entities of the Ten Worlds, or the entities of Myoho-renge-kyo."

So this is a transmission that has in fact already occured and is ongoing it is from the Buddha.

You will note that the Buddha has many titles that denote his various functions, "trainer of men" is but one. You will also note that The Buddha has three virtues "Parent, Sovereign and Teacher" of which "Teacher" is only one. Whilst it is true that the Buddha has trained his Bodhisattvas for and inconcievable length of time one should also consider what Buddha undertook that role. The Sutra answers that it is the eternal Buddha.

Mentor is no where mentioned by either Nichiren or the Sutra (it is simply not a term they use). Only teacher and trainer are, there is not an eqivalence between these terms and mentor, just an overlap of meaning (check the dictionary and etymology if you doubt me).

One has to question why SGI has departed from using the precise term of "The Buddha" and substituted in the term "mentor", which it also uses to describe numerous other things, including it's "3 Presidents" and "Mr. Ikeda". There is definitely no equivalence between The Buddha and the SGI leaders in establishing trachings to be relied upon.

Why would the SGI think it OK to reduce The Buddha to simply one of his functions and one of his virtues, using a term that loosely approximates teacher or trainer? Put simply, why has the SGI simplified the Buddha to shoehorn him into it's "mentor" dogma?

Now let's look at the mechanism for inheritance of the Law that Nichiren recommends.

(Ibid)

"Shakyamuni Buddha who attained enlightenment countless kalpas ago, the Lotus Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood, and we ordinary human beings are in no way different or separate from one another. To chant Myoho-renge-kyo with this realization is to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death. This is a matter of the utmost importance for Nichiren’s disciples and lay supporters, and this is what it means to embrace the Lotus Sutra."

You will note

"the Lotus Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood"

It is the Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood, this is why the statement "cannot attain Buddhahood is incorrect" in Mr Ikeda's teaching. All people who meet the Sutra will, whether the believe, disbelieve, slander or are neutral, attain Buddhahood. Not to believe this, is of itself a slander of the Sutra, as both Nichiren and the Sutra tell us.

The mechanism for inheritance of the Law is quite clearly and explicitly "To chant Myoho-renge-kyo with this realization is to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death."

Not all people can have that realisation straight off, so faith is substituted. In the next paragraph is a great example of Nichiren teaching on faith.

(Ibid)

"For one who summons up one’s faith and chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the profound insight that now is the last moment of one’s life, the sutra proclaims: “When the lives of these persons come to an end, they will be received into the hands of a thousand Buddhas, who will free them from all fear and keep them from falling into the evil paths of existence.”

Now let's turn again to your claim about causation not being relevant to the topic, Nichiren, in the same Gosho, disagrees:

(Ibid)

"My followers are now able to accept and uphold theLotus Sutra because of the strong ties they formed with it in their past existences. They are certain to obtain the fruit of Buddhahood in the future."

So "Chas" causality and the workings of reality as described by the ten factors are entirely relevant and they are explicitly mentioned by Nichiren in the very Gosho that Mr Ikeda purports to understand enough to presume to lecture upon.

Clearly you are not only not famiar with the SGI teaching that is on page 115 of a lecture you should have studied if you are indeed the diciple of sensei you claim but you don't appear to have read the actual Gosho before making your statement to Mark!

Let's turn again to the transmission of the Law, it's inheritance, it's heritage. This is what Nichiren again has to say:

"The heritage of the Lotus Sutra flows within the lives of those who never forsake it in any lifetime whatsoever—whether in the past, the present, or the future."

Now comes the qualified statement about Buddhahood together with a clear rationale.

(Ibid)

"But those who disbelieve and slander the Lotus Sutra will immediately “destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world.” Because they cut themselves off from the potential to attain enlightenment, they do not share the heritage of the ultimate Law of life and death."

You will note, it is relation to the Sutra alone that this is made not a "mentor", whatever that means in the SGI multi use "mentor" label jargon.

You will also note that the statement is qualified “destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world.” not absolute as in Mr Ikeda's teaching in this 2009 "lecture" - "If we forget the mentor-disciple relationship, we cannot attain Buddhahood.".

You will also note that in Mr Ikeda's 1979 lecture on the same Gosho, his statement was qualified and had the same form as the Gosho.

This is an important point, as I have said earlier, if one makes the statement absolute one immediately puts oneself in the position of slandering the Sutra. As Never Disparaging states:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/ott/PART-2/20

“I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparagement or arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood.”

You will note the certainty of attaining Buddhahood. To not believe this is to disbelive the Sutra. To disbelieve the Sutra is to slander it.

I ask you "Chas" to look at your own postings and examine their tone and style in the light of the following passage of that same chapter.

(Ibid)

“Among the four kinds of believers there were those who gave way to anger, their minds lacking in purity.”

Now lets turn to Mr Ikeda's assertion that "Buddhism is the Law of life; and the Law of life cannot be transmitted through words and concepts alone."

So if that's true, what is Nichiren doing teaching this then?:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/88#para-8

"Wondering how to resolve this dilemma, I made a vow. I decided that I would not heed the claims of these eight or ten schools, but would do as the Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai did and let the sutras themselves be my sole teacher, in this way determining which of the various teachings of the Buddha’s lifetime are superior and which are inferior. With this in mind, I began to read through all the sutras."

Clearly Nichiren disagrees with Mr Ikeda, words and concepts are indeed the thing that enabled Nichiren to come to a correct veiw.

This Gosho is especially noteable, since it is the writing in which Nichiren details the break with the teachings of his own master (teacher) Dozen Bo. It most directly covers the context of Nichiren's own inheritance of the Law, which was most definitely not through Dozen Bo, although he does credit Dozen Bo for his help. A position I relate to, since I have done likewise with Mr Ikeda.

In another writing, concerning his urge to seek the Law, Nichiren explains:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/84#para-21

"Why did I first begin to chant as I do? Bodhisattva Superior Practices is the one destined to make his advent in this world to propagate the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo. But before he had even appeared, I began, as though speaking in a dream, hardly aware of what I was doing, to utter the words Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, and so I chant them now. In the end, is this a good thing I do, or a bad thing? I do not know, nor can anyone else tell for certain.

"But when I open the Lotus Sutra and reverently peruse it, I see that even the bodhisattvas Manjushrī, Maitreya, Perceiver of the World’s Sounds, and Universal Worthy, who had reached the stage of near-perfect enlightenment, were scarcely able touphold so much as a single phrase or verse of this sutra, because the sutra itself states that it can “only be understood and shared between Buddhas.”

You will note again the reliance on the words and concepts of the Sutra with the mind of Faith "But when I open the Lotus Sutra and reverently peruse it".

And again the specific distinction made by Nichiren between The Buddha and others:

"Only the Lotus Sutra represents the wonderful teaching preached directly from the golden mouth of Shakyamuni Buddha, who is perfectly endowed with the three bodies. Therefore, even Universal Worthy and Manjushrī were hardly able to expound so much as a single phrase or verse of it. How much more difficult then must it be for us, who are no more than ordinary people living in this latter age, to embrace even one or two words of this sutra!"

So are we to take Mr Ikeda as equal to The Buddha? If not, should we not make a clear distiction between The Buddha and Mr Ikeda by not calling them by the same role title. After all, this is what Nichiren has to say about lesser teachers and the distortions they introduce:

(Ibid)

"Because the founders of the various schools read the Lotus Sutra, their respective disciples all assumed that their own teacher had grasped the sutra’s heart. However, if we look carefully into the essence of the matter, we find that the Great Teacher Tz’u-en read the Lotus Sutra while making theProfound Secrets Sutra and The Treatise on the Consciousness-Only Doctrine his teachers, and the Great Teacher Chia-hsiang read the Lotus Sutra while making the Wisdom sutrasand The Treatise on the Middle Way his teachers. Men like Tu-shun and Fa-tsang read the Lotus Sutra while making the Flower Garland Sutra and The Commentary on the Ten Stages Sutra their teachers. And Shan-wu-wei, Chin-kang-chih, and Pu-k’ung read the Lotus Sutra while making the Mahāvairochana Sutra their teacher. All these men thought that they had read the Lotus Sutra. But in fact they had not read so much as a single phrase or verse of it."

You will also note that all of the erroneous teachers Nichiren cites are tied back to words and concepts of the various provisional sutras they follow. In Nichiren land, words and concepts of the sutras are important and only one occupies the highest place, the one that teaches attainment of Buddhahood for all, regardless of belief, disbelief, slander - the Lotus Sutra.

I finish with the benchmark and guide that Nichiren urges:

"A sutra says: “Rely on the Law and not upon persons. Rely on the meaning of the teaching and not on the words.Rely on wisdom and not on discriminative thinking. Rely on sutras that are complete and final and not on those that are not complete and final.” The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Your arrention is drawn to "The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Again we see the clear labelling that Nichiren uses to disinguish Buddha from bodhisattvas and teachers.

Let's try some SGI multi use "mentor" labelling by substituting in the term, as used by the SGI to refer to all these things. This is what we get:

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the mentors and mentors, but should heed what was established by the mentor."

Spot the problem "Chas"? What we get is an unclear, confusing mess and that's exactly what happens in the minds of SGI members that follow the SGI teaching and guidance. This is exactly what the current SGI is encouraging in it's members.

In summary, the Law is not transmitted through the mentor disciple bond nor any other temporal organisational lineage. Such veiws are directly refuted by Nichiren in all the Gosho cited and many others not cited.

External agents are not seperate to the "strong ties" that it's practicioners have already formed with the Sutra. Those ties can either be by embracing the Sutra or forming a reverse relationship with it, as you have "Chas".

Either way Buddhahood is assured. The difference between us "Chas" is that I believe that, so does Mark, Katie and Alex and so we practice with faith in the Sutra.

You do not, you follow a man who explicitly teaches that attainment of Buddhahood is contingent on following a "mentor" that is ill defined as a label and directly slanders the Sutra by teaching disbelief in its central teaching.

The term "mentor" is a wholly inapporopriate to refer to The Buddha, who should be simply called such. It is also wholly inappropriate to suggest that one needs to follow a teacher such as Mr Ikeda to gain buddhahood, especially when he is teaching in this distorted way.

Your turn "Chas", refute me now on Gosho if you can.

Be well :)

You wrote "Chas":

"Who was discussing causation? Stop distorting the topic of discussion into one you can master easily, Buku Mark Rogow and Iain. [You are giving voice to those statue distortions you worship again, Mark.]

The topic, which Iain brought up, not me, was TRANSMISSION of the Law.

What in hell is so hard to understand about this?

-Chas."

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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May 30, 2016, 4:41:09 PM5/30/16

WOW! This perfect refutation is a stunning indictment against Mr. Ikeda and the SGI- disqualified *teacher*; sham, bogus doctrine. All that's missing is a response from SGI *top brass*; one that expresses their comprehension of the gravity of this offense. What iainx has accomplished here goes straight to the very core ; SGI is "rotten to the core". But, what if the senior leaders and their minions have no clue as to what constitutes slander of the Lotus Sutra, much less the grave far reaching effects of their complicity in destroying the Buddha's perfect teaching? Or, what if none has any inclination to study this indictment using Nichiren's writings , and seeks validation exclusively from Gakkai propaganda? Chas has shown a flair for emulating the SGI's top leaders' strategy: *attack and defame the messenger*, *obfuscate, detract and deflect*--

Since I spent a number of years seeking the proverbial connection to the *mentor*/Ikeda Sensei, I can add that debunking his claim to entitlement is* possible through words and concepts alone*; that is to say, for the vast majority of sincere SGI members, their sensei is inaccessible -- by any other means. Ironically, when I first set out to get some deeper sense of Ikeda, I employed Nichiren's example set forth in his writings, of employing words and concepts to study, embrace and revere Shakyamuni Buddha.

It is easier to uncover vast differences between Ikeda's teachings and Nichiren's teachings on the Lotus sutra and Shakyamuni than it is to find a fellow member/leader with whom these issues can be explored. Most senior leaders I have known blew off most of Ikeda's guidance for the org, as well; specifically guidelines for them, the leaders, which makes it all the more curious that they so readily uphold his most outrageous non-buddhist *doctrines*, while giving the impression that, Ikeda is a living Buddha. HOW CAN ANYONE DOUBT SENSEI'S PURE HEART AND LIFELONG DEVOTION... etc, etc. ??

There is no need to prove a motive when rebuking slander, as the intention should be to * rid the offender of his evil*, seek refuge in the Lotus Sutra; forestall the grave effects for both--focus on behavior, NOT make character aspersions! However, due to the longstanding perpetuating disregard for pretty much anything relating to True Buddhism, Nichiren, Shakyamuni and the Lotus Sutra, displayed by SGI for over a decade, I think it is prudent to establish a motive for *The Mentor/Disciple* doctrine.

SGI USA enjoys tax exempt status as an established religion. A hard look at the criteria for maintaining their wealth amassing capacity is very telling-- as is the timing of the M/D doctrine roll out and Ikeda's excommunication from NST. HOW would SGI have met criteria to continue its claim to tax exempt status when ostensibly chastised and *cut off* by NST High Priest Nikken?

14-Point Criteria for a Religious Organization

An agency which is a Church, but is not incorporated as such or has not applied for 501(c)(3) status or has not had the Internal Revenue Service revoke its 501(c)(3) status, still qualifies for exempt status if they are indeed a Church. The following 14 criteria are used by the IRS to define what a Church is. Their purpose is not to be rigid guidelines, but instead to filter out potential tax-avoidance schemes. Considerable leeway is involved in their interpretation. For example, an independent church would not be part of a larger denomination - churches may or may not have schools for training their ministers - and Friends Meetings found within the Quaker denomination will not have a minister.

Their purpose is instead to determine if a Church meets these guidelines ‘in spirit’, if not necessarily the letter.

After you recreate this list on your church letterhead (we can email it to you, please check all that applies to your organization:

(1) 0 A Distinct Legal Existence
(2) 0 A Recognized Creed and Form of Worship
(3) 0 A Definite and Distinct Ecclesiastical Government
(4) 0 A formal code of Doctrine and Discipline
(5) 0 A Distinct Religious History
(6) 0 A Membership Not Associated with any (other) Church or Denomination
(7) 0 A Complete Organization of Ordained Ministers Ministering to their Congregations
(8) 0 Ordained Ministers Elected After Completing Prescribed Courses of Study
(9) 0 A Literature of its Own
(10) 0 Established Places of Worship
(11) 0 Regular Congregations
(12) 0 Regular Religious Services
(13) 0 Sunday Schools for Religious Instruction of the Young
(14) 0 Schools for the Preparation of Its MinisterNote: At least nine of the above 14 points must be checked.

Please send supporting documents, such as your church bulletin, brochure, newsletter, church mission, or history and/or any tangible documents you can provide.
Thank you for your cooperation.

The following information needs to be included at the bottom of your letter.

Church Name: __________________________________________________________

Signature of Senior Church Agent: _________________________________________

_______________________________________ __________________________
Title

Is there any significant difference in the spirit of Ikeda's M/D doctrine and the NST's (forged )transfer doctrines that establish the crucial role of the High Priest? Isn't control of the members and a steady flow of member contributions implicit in both? There is, though, at least in my mind, a significant difference between hoodwinking members, and receiving the benefit of not paying taxes for conducting business in the U.S. -- The latter means that while already suffering the effects of this slanderous organization, the people unwittingly perpetuate it as they are unable to confront SGI's tax avoidance schemes, and blind to the "body/shadow" relationship we have with SGI, the people are now seeking extremist political leaders to salvage our economy !

Revoking the religious organization/tax exempt status of SGI is a means to *cutting off alms giving* from these slanderers, as recommended by Nichiren in "Securing the Peace of The Land.."

~Katie

Chas.

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May 30, 2016, 10:21:25 PM5/30/16

Once again you have effectively used the tag-teaming of Mark and Katie, your surrogates to completely change the point.

Back to the quote which you hate from Sensei:

The word causation is not at issue, unless you are modifying what Sensei said. He said TRANSMISSION, which is from mouth to ear of two human beings.

Please try to stay focused on the point and don't start quoting about other things.

You say the word "mentor" or "disciple" is an offensive way to refer to a Buddha. Then what about Nichiren Daishonin's calling a Buddha a "common mortal"? This is a preposterous complaint.

Buddhas, AKA common mortals have all kinds of relationships, including mentor and disciple.

Stop fogging the issue with your distorted rhetoric and bringing in the formation of your new Sangha/Church into the discussion (which you denied you were here to actually do when I pointed this out a long time ago.)

I repeat on the topic of transmission:
___________________________________________________

________________________________________________

Please address the topic of transmission, without distorting it into something else.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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May 31, 2016, 2:53:57 AM5/31/16

Thanks "Chas". Stop playing the victim card so beloved of SGI members of your kind amd stay focused on topic.

I don't want your opinions or conjecture, present your Gosho. SGI members in particular, please note the absence of a doctrinal respinse from "Chas". You have not done this. Please do this now.

Some points on your poor respinse:

1) I have no emotional reaction to the quotation, I do not "hate", the teaching is just wrong, so needs to be refuted.

2) one cannot seperate transmission from causation, its simple cause and effect Chas.

3) transmission, inheritance is by the vehicle of faith, realisation not mentor disciple.

4) one cannot make the absolute statement about buddhahood and be following either the Sutra or Nichiren's teaching, you have not addressed this point.

5) you have not addressed multi use of " mentor" by SGI and the confusion it causes.

6) you have not addressed "words and concepts"

7) I suggest you go back and read my post, regarding "common mortal" and labelling.

Be well :)

Chas.

unread,

unread,

Jun 2, 2016, 11:11:01 PM6/2/16

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 1:44:54 PM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

> "You say the word "mentor" or "disciple" is an offensive way to refer to a Buddha."
>
> I didn't say offensive actually, more if your layering of negative emotionalism onto another's argument, I said it is wholly inapprioriate and that The Buddha should refered to as such, The Buddha.
>
> "Then what about Nichiren Daishonin's calling a Buddha a "common mortal"?"
>
> Where does Nichiren do this "Chas"? Gosho quote please with reference.
>

You simply have the shortest memory of any debater I have ever talked to.

My comments and the quotes about "common mortal" were simply in response to what said, that Nichiren Daishonin never said that the common mortal is the true Buddha.

This is something literally everyone in Nichiren Buddhism knows, except apparently you.

Nobody is above anybody else, we are all utterly equal. That's why they call it "Buddhist Democracy" in the SGI.

All human beings have the same value. No one can calculate what that value is, it is far too immense, but equality? Yes, we know all these valuable human beings are precisely and accurately equal.

Those afflicted with apparently invincible ignorance are in fact the true Buddha, equal to Nichiren Daishonin on his best day, 6AM on April 28th, 1253.

Any appearances to the contrary of that utterly perfect equality with Nichiren Daishonin are completely delusional.

If you learn nothing else from talking to me, LEARN THAT!

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

unread,

Jun 3, 2016, 1:27:07 AM6/3/16

Thanks "Chas", nice try at attempting to divert the discussion. It won't work. I invite readers to review the thread. I also invite them to note that I have never argued that everyone possesses the Eternal Buddha within (that is the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's teaching).

There is no democracy within the SGI, it argues an external transmission based on mentor disciple relationship, deliberately conflates it hierachical 3 presidents and Mr Ikeda with The Buddha and Nichiren by using "mentor" to support this external authority, whilst at the same time relentlessly publicising and promoting Mr Ikeda particularly (and asserting the rightness of his guidance alone) and diverting its members from the mind of faith that Nichiren taught. That "Chas" is the point, now stick to it.

You have 7 points oustanding that you have yet to answer based on Gosho, including the absolute assertion about attainment of Buddhahoid, the most important of the points, which is a direct amd unequivocable slander of the Lotus Sutra by Mr Ikeda and tge SGI who publish and promote his teaching. Now do it or lose.

Be well. :)

Chas.

unread,

> How does that happen, ah yes scholarly and scientific rigor. The computers and the net they use are products of quantum mechanical understandings of the world. How does that happen? Oh yes the same rigor.
>

However, quantum mechanics is the least understood of all disciplines, even by the best. Feynman would often remark that we know the general rules that Mother Nature operates by, but they are mighty strange and no one understands why she does things the way she does. This is even more true now as we mix quantum mechanics with relativity in small areas. Did you know that an un-accelerated observer looking at a vacuum sees only occasional virtual particles being created and destroyed, but an observer under strong acceleration sees the vacuum filled with particles?

There is even a rocket engine that appears to work that uses these virtual particles as reaction mass. The world is mighty strange indeed, and few would profess to have the kind of deep understanding that would allow anyone to have blind faith in one scholar.

> The fact that they can now often survive what were once terminal illnesses because of advances in medical science, how does that happen? Oh yes, the same rigor.
>

The most effective of modern medicines extracted from natural sources are used, but little understood in terms of why they work and others like them don't, an exception to this is CRISPR and other synthetic approaches which we understand quite well, precisely because we made them with a purpose. The purposes and intent of the plants, fungi and animals we get most medicines from are not yet clear to us. We just have found them to be effective in certain cases, under certain regimes.

> If Jacqueline Stone is such a poor scholar, because she happens to present an argument and information that is inconvenient to your fantasy view of the world, how come she was good enough to help translate the very writings you have relied upon for so many years? Why did SGI employ her?
>

I don't remember analyzing that scholar or any other. What I am challenging is your blind trust in one academic source in probably what is the softest of sciences: Buddhist historiography. The academy in that discipline is filled with Theravada/Hinayana scholars who cannot be trusted. They regularly ignore physical evidence in favor of their cherished beliefs, which are distortions of the truth.

> But that's besides the point isn't it? Because you can't quote Gosho to support your case and even the Oral Record doctrine you have quoted undermines it.
>
> I'll say again, if we are all "born a buddha", which is your sentence not mine, what need for Shayamuni, Nichiren etc. what need for activities for kosen rufu?
>

I showed this to you before in part, but you ignored it, which is the main reasons you still have eight points for me: such is my Sisyphean role in this Greek tragedy. I will continue to roll the stone up the hill of your ignorance, however.

This time I will walk you through it, both highlighting and inserting commentary, so that you cannot miss the point. ("Hope springs eternal", said Sisyphus under the watchful eye of Persephone)

From "The True Aspect of All Phenomena", WND I, p. 383-385:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40#para-3

... NO ONE BUT NICHIREN has ever revealed teachings like these.
... Though T’ien-t’ai, Miao-lo, and Dengyō knew about them in
... their hearts, they never put them into words. They went
... about their lives keeping this knowledge to themselves. And
... there was good reason for this. The Buddha had not
... entrusted them with the task, the time had not yet come,
... and they had not been the Buddha’s disciples from the
... distant past. Only Superior Practices, Boundless Practices,
... and the other foremost leaders and guiding teachers among
... the Bodhisattvas of the Earth cannot only appear during the
... first five hundred years of the Latter Day of the Law and
... spread the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the essence
... of all phenomena, BUT ALSO GIVE CONCRETE FORM TO THE
... CEREMONY OF THE TWO BUDDHAS SEATED SIDE BY SIDE IN THE
... TREASURE TOWER. The reason is that what they are to spread
... and give concrete form to is none other than the teaching
... of the actual three thousand realms in a single moment of
... life in the “Life Span” chapter of the essential teaching.
...

1. "No one but Nichiren" has revealed these teachings, not even Shakyamuni, Lord of Teachings, who is negatively included with all others in the phrase "no one".

It was no one else's mission, but Nichiren Daishonin to reveal the highest truth hidden at the heart of the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren Daishonin explains this in various other places as due to the time, however, it is also due to who Nichiren Daishonin is.

Nichiren Daishonin is the man for that moment, who turns that wheel that makes the new era of the Latter Day of the Law or Mappo, by revealing the truth that no one else can reveal.

This is the man Iain calls a "latter commentator", and who I call Daishonin or True Buddha. Nichiren Daishonin is the revealer, not the commentator, oddly, that role is left to Shakyamuni who predicted Nichiren Daishonin's revelation of the heart of the Lotus Sutra: the heart of the highest teaching.

The heart of the highest teaching that he reveals is not indicated directly in any quote in the Lotus Sutra, such that you can actually logically prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what Nichiren Daishonin reveals is the truth.

The truth of the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra, as in all far lesser religious truths, is not logically deduced or induced, but is based on faith alone: however, in both the Western and Eastern worlds, Reason includes both Logic AND Faith.

Hence, faith-based logic is reasonable, unless you are without faith, then that logic is not reasonable and makes no sense whatsoever.

Faith in this case implies practice, you have to chant Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo to come to believe in it and experience the result to gain faith.

2. However, before you can have faith in the power of the daimoku, you had to have faith in Nichiren Daishonin, who reveals that highest truth, you would have to have faith in the mentor, that he is revealing to you, the disciple, the absolute truth and nothing else. Otherwise, your practice of the Lotus Sutra would be Tendai, and simple recitation of its chapters to your statues.

Not having faith in Nichiren Daishonin, since you had never heard of him, you had to have faith in the mentor that introduced you, or taught you to chant, or led the first district meeting you went to, or ... whoever the bodhisattva was: that person had faith in the daimoku, the Gohonzon and hence, that Nichiren Daishonin was in fact, completely right! The disciple first receives faith in the veracity of Nichiren Daishonin (or an echo of it) from their mentor.

3. "Only Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, and the other foremost leaders and guiding teachers among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth ..." "... also give concrete form to the ceremony of the two Buddhas seated side by side in the treasure tower." That concrete form is the Gohonzon, the highest object of worship.

Shakyamuni not only cannot reveal the highest teaching ... also, he cannot enscribe the Gohonzon.

Why? Because it is not his mission given by the eternal Buddha. That was given to the very first of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, Nichiren Daishonin, as the embodiment of Superior Practices, or Jogyo.

This means you either trust what Nichiren Daishonin says and choose the Gohonzon as your highest object of worship to chant the daimoku to, or distrust Nichiren Daishonin and chant the daimoku to your statues. You will however, have to choose which path to take, with hell to pay upon your mistaken choice.

... THEREFORE, THE TWO BUDDHAS, SHAKYAMUNI AND MANY TREASURES,
... ARE BUDDHAS WHO ARE FUNCTIONS [OF MYOHO-RENGE-KYO]. IT IS
... MYOHO-RENGE-KYO THAT IS THE TRUE BUDDHA. This is what is
... described in the sutra as “the Thus Come One’s secret and
... his transcendental powers.” THE “THUS COME ONE’S SECRET”
... REFERS TO THE ENTITY OF THE BUDDHA’S THREE BODIES, AND IT
... REFERS TO THE TRUE BUDDHA. “His transcendental powers”
... refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers
... to provisional Buddhas. A COMMON MORTAL IS AN ENTITY OF THE
... THREE BODIES, AND A TRUE BUDDHA. A Buddha is a function of
... the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case,
... though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the
... three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the
... sake of all of us living beings, that is not so. ON THE
... CONTRARY, IT IS COMMON MORTALS WHO ENDOW HIM WITH THE THREE
... VIRTUES.
...

4. "Therefore, the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas who are functions [of Myoho-renge-kyo]. It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha."

Shakyamuni (and Taho) are functions of the eternal Buddha, Myoho-Renge-Kyo, which we invoke in the daimoku.

Is that crystal clear? If you chant the daimoku, you have to have faith that Nichiren Daishonin is correct, otherwise Myoho-Renge-Kyo would not be the eternal Buddha: and if you accept that, then Shakyamuni would not be a function of Myoho-Renge-Kyo.

You cannot have it both ways, you must give up the supremacy of Shakyamuni and stop chanting to images of him, since you cannot chant the highest teaching hidden in the Lotus Sutra that was revealed by Nichiren Daishonin unless you agree with him on this completely central point. Stop chanting to functions, and chant to the Gohonzon.

5. These three phrases (a through c, below) refer to the common mortal, or true Buddha, which Nichiren Daishonin is, and also you and I as well as every common mortal. Common mortals in the Mappo era, after Nichiren Daishonin revealed the truth, are also Bodhisattvas of the Earth, according to Josei Toda.

Here's the proof of Nichiren Daishonin's point.

a. '“Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha.'

You can grammatically reconstruct that sentence correctly thus: '“Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, AND “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the true Buddha.' This is because the sentence contains two logical declarations conjoined as a logical tautology (true in all circumstances or interpretations - Wittgenstein).

This is where the logical connection is made between the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and the true Buddha. The AND means that the logical tautology is dependent on both pieces being conjoined in referential identity (otherwise the reference could not be true to both, because they could not be aliased together.)

Hence,
{the true Buddha = entity of the three bodies.}

b. "A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha."

You can grammatically reconstruct that sentence correctly thus: "A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies AND a common mortal is a true Buddha." This is because the sentence contains two logical declarations conjoined and they are jointly logically tautological in nature. The AND means that the logical tautology is dependent on all three pieces being conjoined in the strong identity "is".

Hence,
{a common mortal = the true Buddha = entity of the three bodies.}

c. "On the contrary, it is common mortals who endow him [Shakyamuni] with the three virtues."

You can logically insert the connected declaration (from section b.) into that sentence thus: "On the contrary, it is common mortals {a common mortal = the true Buddha = entity of the three bodies} who endow him [Shakyamuni] with the three virtues."

6. These two phrases (d and e) refer to provisional Buddhas like Shakyamuni, who are functions of the three bodies of the true Buddha.

d. '“His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas.'

Similarly, this can be reduced to:
{provisional Buddhas(e.g., Shakyamuni) = functions of the three bodies}

e. 'A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so.'

Finally, this can be reduced to:
[provisional Buddhas(e.g., Shakyamuni) = functions of the {three bodies of {the entity = a common mortal = the true Buddha}}]

Q.E.D.

Any decent logician can verify this result. Find one with no skin in the game, like a Jesuit logic professor.

That suggestion follows the same reasoning whereby the Zen practitioner Burton Watson became part of the effort to translate all the SGI documents along with the Gosho translation committee. He had zero skin in the game with the disputing Nichiren sects, the only exception being his reputation as the world's foremost translator of Japanese and Classical Chinese writings by scholars of that era (Buddhist monks) into English.

Go ahead, challenge his veracity on any phrase in any of the texts he was part of. I'd like to see that.

This is why these translations are correct and those of the various Nichiren temples are not. It's because Sensei went to the top outside expert in the field, and paid a price for that.

... The “Thus Come One” is explained clearly in T’ien-t’ai’s
... commentary as follows: “The Thus Come One is a general
... designation for the Buddhas of the ten directions and the
... three existences, for the two Buddhas, the three Buddhas,

... the true Buddha, and provisional Buddhas.” THE “TRUE
... BUDDHA” HERE MEANS COMMON MORTALS, WHEREAS “PROVISIONAL
... BUDDHAS” MEANS BUDDHAS. However, because of the difference
... between ordinary people and Buddhas that stems from the
... disparity between delusion and enlightenment, ordinary
... people are unaware that they are endowed with both the
... entity and the functions of the three bodies.
...

'The “true Buddha” here means common mortals, whereas “provisional Buddhas” means Buddhas.'

That is another direct quote making this very point again. Clear and straightforward and unmistakable.

The common mortal is the true Buddha, whereas Shakyamuni and Many Treasures in all their eternal glory as inscribed on the Gohonzon, are functions of the entity that is any common mortal enveloped in his or her delusion.

That means that if a statue worshiper really wanted to enshrine a more proper image to chant to, it would be the picture of a drunk or a hooker on the street: better that, than just a FUNCTION of that true Buddha, that very human being.

This is why we don't chant to images, since images cannot have the true aspect, only the Gohonzon has the true aspect, which means without having aspect (from the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra, without which the Lotus Sutra would lack the clear understanding of true aspect, and would therefore be less complete.)

... “All phenomena” in the sutra refers to the Ten Worlds, and
... the “true aspect,” to what they actually are. THE “TRUE
... ASPECT” IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MYOHO-RENGE-KYO; hence all
... phenomena are Myoho-renge-kyo. Hell’s displaying the form
... of hell is its true aspect. When hell changes into the
... realm of hungry spirits, that is no longer the true form of
... hell. A Buddha displays the form of a Buddha, and a common
... mortal, that of a common mortal. The entities of all
... phenomena are entities of Myoho-renge-kyo. That is the
... meaning of “the true aspect of all phenomena.” T’ien-t’ai
... states that the profound principle of the true aspect is
... the originally inherent Myoho-renge-kyo. This
... interpretation identifies the phrase “true aspect” with the
... theoretical teaching and “the originally inherent
... Myoho-renge-kyo” with the essential teaching. You should
... ponder this interpretation deep in your heart.
...

'The “true aspect” is another name for Myoho-renge-kyo; hence all phenomena are Myoho-renge-kyo.'

This is the fruit of the clear understanding of that description of true aspect.

If the true aspect was an image of Shakyamuni, then it could not be Myoho-Renge-Kyo, because Myoho-Renge-Kyo is without aspect, you cannot view it from any point and see an aspect.

Also, then all entities and phenomena could not be the true entity of Myoho-Renge-Kyo, without having the aspect of Shakyamuni, were Shakyamuni's image the true aspect.

All phenomena are the true aspect AND Myoho-Renge-Kyo, precisely because the true aspect means without having the aspect of any specific or particular entity.

This also, BTW explains that passage with all of the negations from the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Prologue/1#para-23

'his body neither existing nor not existing,
neither caused nor conditioned, neither self nor other,
neither square nor round, neither short nor long,
neither appearing nor disappearing, neither born nor extinguished,
neither created nor arising, neither acted nor made,
neither sitting nor lying down, neither walking nor standing,
neither moving nor turning, neither idle nor still,
neither advancing nor retreating, neither in safety nor danger,
neither right nor wrong, neither gaining nor losing,
neither that nor this, neither departing nor coming,
neither blue nor yellow, neither red nor white,
neither crimson nor purple nor any other sort of color'

This is all straightforward and clear from the reading of the supreme teaching and the Gosho.

... Although not worthy of the honor, I, Nichiren, was
... nevertheless the first to spread the Mystic Law entrusted
... to Bodhisattva Superior Practices for propagation in the
... Latter Day of the Law. I was also the first, though only
... Bodhisattva Superior Practices is so empowered, to inscribe
... [the object of devotion as] the embodiment of Shakyamuni
... Buddha from the remote past as revealed in the “Life Span”
... chapter of the essential teaching, of Many Treasures Buddha
... who appeared when the “Treasure Tower” chapter of the
... theoretical teaching was preached, and of the Bodhisattvas
... of the Earth who arrived with the “Emerging from the Earth”
... chapter. Though people may hate me, they cannot possibly
... alter the fact of my enlightenment.
...

Nichiren Daishonin enscribed all of those onto the Gohonzon. Not onto an image of Shakyamuni. Shakyamuni could not reveal the daimoku at the heart of the Lotus Sutra, not inscribe the Gohonzon, according to Nichiren Daishonin, who did both.

... Therefore, to have exiled me, Nichiren, to this remote
... island is, I believe, an offense that can never be
... expiated, even with the passing of countless kalpas. A
... passage from the “Simile and Parable” chapter reads, “If I
... were to describe the punishments [that fall on persons who
... slander this sutra], I could exhaust a kalpa and never come
... to the end.” On the other hand, not even the wisdom of the
... Buddha can fathom the blessings that one will obtain by
... giving alms to Nichiren and by becoming his disciple and
... lay supporter. The sutra reads, “[The benefits he gains
... thereby will be such that] even the Buddha wisdom could
... never finish calculating their extent.”
...

Hence, slanderers, who deny the very intent of this sutra, which is its heart, commit"

"an offense that can never be expiated, even with the passing of countless kalpas."

However, there is hope even for them, because:

'The sutra reads, “[The benefits he gains thereby will be such that] even the Buddha wisdom could never finish calculating their extent.”'

... Nichiren alone took the lead in carrying out the task of
... the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. He may even be one of them.
... If Nichiren is to be counted among the Bodhisattvas of the
... Earth, then so must his disciples and lay supporters. The
... sutra states: “If one [of these good men or good women in
... the time after I have passed into extinction] is able to
... secretly expound the Lotus Sutra to one person, even one
... phrase of it, then you should know that he or she is the
... envoy of the Thus Come One. He has been dispatched by the
... Thus Come One and carries out the Thus Come One’s work.”
... Who else but us can this possibly refer to?

Who else but Sensei, the SGI, and my unworthy self?

> Of course, to get out of that one and make a case for mentor-disciple transmission, you'll have to fess up that the argument you are attempting to make is about inherant functions of life, not defacto manifestation of those qualities. For that one needs faith and Daimoku.
>

Let's deal with Iain's false complaint upon his secret departure from the SGI, that Sensei and the SGI only recently veered away from Buddhism into the mentor and disciple principle. This is an ignorant proposition due to the evidence of mentor and disciple in the Lotus Sutra that I have presented now many times, and also a baseless complaint on your faux 'surprise' at the discovery of the veering.

Here is an example of two speeches, one from 1991 and one from 2007, both of which are focused on the mentor and disciple principle that was present from the beginning in the very first volume of the Human Revolution written by Sensei, and in fact the first volume of the Human Revolution written by Josei Toda.

From SGI President Ikeda’s speech at a youth training meeting held at Soka University of America, Calabasas, Calif., October 1st, (1991),

. Yesterday, at the conference for leaders of the United
. States and Canada, I talked briefly about the reasons for
. Nikko Shonin’s departure from Mount Minobu.
.
. The fundamental cause for his departure lay with the
. decadent priest Mimbu Niko [one of the five senior
. priests], who tolerated and even encouraged slanderous
. actions on the part of Hakiri Sanenaga, the steward of the
. area. This caused the area of Minobu [where Nichiren
. Daishonin spent the latter years of his life] to become
. defiled.
.
. Among Niko’s perverse views were his accusations that Nikko
. Shonin indulged in non- Buddhist literature. [Non-Buddhist
. literature here indicates Brahman writings of India, the
. Confucian and Taoist works of China, and general, secular
. and literary works. In some cases, the term is used to
. indicate scholarly writings and the Chinese classics, which
. at the time were considered the basic foundation of all
. learning, much as the liberal arts are today.]
.
. Nikko Shonin strictly upheld the spirit of Nichiren
. Daishonin as revealed in “On Establishing the Correct
. Teaching for the Peace of the Land.” Based on this spirit,
. he instructed Hakiri that for him to make pilgrimages to
. Shinto shrines was [against the Daishonin’s teaching and
. therefore] impermissible.
.
. Hakiri thereupon sought the counsel of Niko. Niko told
. Hakiri: “Being a person who indulges in non-Buddhist
. literature, Nikko reads ‘On Establishing the Correct
. Teaching for the Peace of the Land’ from that perspective,
. and so he fails to grasp its more profound meaning.” He
. thus undermined Hakiri’s trust in Nikko Shonin.
.
. Nikko Shonin cites Niko’s words in the letter, “Reply to
. Lord Hara,” saying: “[Mimbu Ajari Niko answered Hakiri’s
. queries, saying:] ‘That the tutelary benevolent deities
. have abandoned this country is written in “On Establishing
. the Correct Teaching for the Peace of the Land.” However,
. Byakuren Ajari [Nikko Shonin], basing himself on
. non-Buddhist scriptures, reads it in a biased manner and so
. is incapable of understanding its true intention’”
. (Hennentai Gosho, p. 1731).
.
. Niko contradicted the Daishonin’s teaching in telling
. Hakiri that it was therefore all right to visit Shinto
. shrines. Furthermore, he told him to visit shrines as often
. as he wished on the grounds that the Buddhist gods would
. gather at a shrine if a person who embraced the Lotus Sutra
. went there to pray.
.
. Hakiri placed his complete trust in this false teaching,
. which allowed him to do as he wished. “Niko is a priest who
. can be reasoned with,” Hakiri probably thought with
. delight. Almost invariably, a lay person’s deviation from
. the Daishonin’s teaching can be traced to the influence of
. a decadent priest skilled at accommodating the demands of
. lay people [regardless of what is correct from the
. standpoint of Buddhism].
.
. To Hakiri—who had lost his faith—the admonitions of Nikko
. Shonin, who strictly protected the Daishonin’s teaching by
. staunchly refuting slander, had already become little more
. than a source of irritation.
.
. Nikko Shonin declared Niko’s tolerance of slander to be
. “the workings of the devil king,” “a betrayal of the late
. mentor” and “[an offense equal in gravity to committing]
. the seven cardinal sins.” If someone who is charged with
. responsibility for protecting and spreading the Daishonin’s
. teaching willfully distorts and arbitrarily alters the
. teaching, then the actions of such a person certainly
. represent the workings of the devil. They are the actions
. of a priest of the greatest evil, who is guilty of
. betraying the mentor and committing the seven cardinal
. sins. This is what Nikko Shonin taught.
.
. These historical facts contain an important lesson.
.
. First of all, those who betrayed the mentor [Nichiren
. Daishonin] after his death all sought to justify themselves
. by making reference to some “more profound meaning”
. contained in his teaching, despite all documentary proof to
. the contrary.
.
. In Buddhism, the offense of betraying the mentor is
. extremely grave. It amounts to destroying the very life of
. Buddhism. People who do so try to win acceptance for their
. false views by saying, “You should listen to what I say,
. irrespective of what my mentor wrote.” And if someone
. presents them with written proof that shows their words or
. actions to be wrong, they try to gloss over the
. contradiction by saying: “That is a superficial level of
. interpretation. The true meaning is found elsewhere.”
.
. In exactly this manner, the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood is
. contradicting the Gosho and the guidance given by the
. successive high priests, desecrating them and attempting to
. consign them to oblivion. [A contemporary example of this
. is found in the priesthood’s abrupt denial of high priest
. Nittatsu’s view on the significance of the Grand Main
. Temple. This view had served as a fundamental guideline for
. both priests and lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu for more
. than twenty years. Yet now the priesthood claims claim that
. “the former high priest’s true intention is not contained
. in his official statements but is found elsewhere.”]
.
. ‘Although the mentor has died, his writings remain.’
.
. Nikko Shonin came to learn that Hakiri, in a quandary over
. whether it was permissible for him to make pilgrimages to
. Shinto shrines, had been making such remarks as: “The
. priests in the Kamakura area (followers of the five senior
. priests) say it is all right for me to go, but Nikko Shonin
. of Minobu has told me that I must not. Who should I listen
. to now that the Daishonin has died?”
.
. Thereupon, Nikko Shonin strictly instructed him: “Although
. the mentor has died, his writings remain. This is in ‘On
. Establishing the Correct Teaching for the Peace of the
. Land’” (Hennentai Gosho, p. 1731). When the Daishonin is no
. longer in the world, it is his writings that we should make
. our mentor. So long as we continue practicing in accordance
. with the Gosho, what possible cause for confusion can there
. be? Here Nikko Shonin teaches the fundamental attitude for
. the Daishonin’s followers.
.
. What a remarkable contrast between the attitude of Nikko
. Shonin, who made the Gosho his foundation, and that of
. Niko, who based himself on his own personal views and
. neglected the Gosho!
.
. We in the SGI are advancing in perfect accord with the
. teaching of Nikko Shonin, who represents the treasure of
. the Priest, as we make the Gosho our foundation. At the
. same time, we are now witnessing the appearance of the
. followers of Niko within Nichiren Shoshu.

Ikeda, D. (2001, April 6). Mystic Law Gives New Life to All Knowledge. World Tribune, pp. 1-2.

Note, how sixteen years later, nothing has changed in the
view of President Ikeda, in regards to mentor and disciple.
From President Ikeda's "The Great Vow of Kosen-Rufu and the
Path of Mentor and Disciple" (2007),

. Nichiren then emphasizes the profound karmic bonds of
. mentor and disciple that link him and Sairen-bo, to whom
. this writing is addressed and who had weathered persecution
. on account of upholding Nichiren's teaching. To cherish the
. same great desire and to fight with the same spirit of
. selfless commitment as the mentor, even in the face of
. arduous difficulties, is the path of the oneness of mentor
. and disciple in the struggle for kosen-rufu in the Latter
. Day of the Law.
.
. It is the mentors and disciples of the Soka Gakkai who have
. revived the great path of Nichiren Buddhism in the present
. age, widening and expanding it further so that today it
. connects people throughout the world.
.
. The mentor of the "kosen-rufu of the entity of the Law (the
. Gohonzon)" is Nichiren Daishonin -- the Buddha of the
. Latter Day who revealed the Law of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo for
. the enlightenment of all humanity into the eternal future
. and set forth the method for its propagation.
.
. The Soka Gakkai is an organization carrying out the
. Buddha's will and decree. It is a harmonious gathering of
. believers directly connected to Nichiren and has spread
. Nichiren Buddhism throughout the world while overcoming
. countless hardships and obstacles.
.
. Kosen-rufu is a struggle to help all people transcend the
. suffering of death and actualize lives of genuine
. happiness, thus establishing a world in which genuine peace
. prevails. This is the true purpose of Nichiren's propagation.
.
. The Soka Gakkai's founding president, Tsunesaburo
. Makiguchi, fully inherited this spirit and set an example
. of selfless dedication to Buddhism by giving his life for
. his beliefs. The second president, Josei Toda, carried on
. Mr. Makiguchi's struggle with the same unwavering
. commitment. He established the ideals and practice of the
. Soka Gakkai and laid the framework for the harmonious
. community of believers founded on the spirit of "many in
. body, one in mind."
.
. Earnestly following this great path of mentor and disciple,
. upholding the principles of humanism and pacifism that are
. the essence of Nichiren Buddhism, I have spread its
. essential message across the globe through the pursuit of
. dialogue. When this path followed by the first, second and
. third presidents of the Soka Gakkai flows vibrantly as the
. lifeblood transmitting the philosophy and practice of
. Nichiren Buddhism throughout the world, the foundation of
. kosen-rufu in the present age will have been completed. The
. crucial five-year period for completing this process has
. now begun.

Ikeda, D. (2007). The Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life. 2007 Buddhist Learning Review, pp. 75-76.

Your complaining about your "surprise" that Sensei only recently focuses closely on mentor and disciple as a prime requirement for achieving itai doshin, the unity of true believers (which is a prime requirement for achieving Kosen Rufu: if one truly cares about that,) is specious and unfounded: it was always there and you probably followed it until you started looking around for a good reason to make your deceptively secret departure, and then replace Sensei, steal his followers and start your own Sangha.

Once again, I express my condolences to the suffering friends and leaders of Iain in the SGI that had to go through the selfish and pointless finger-pointing theatrics of your departing Olympian death-scene.

> You are ignoring one very key part of the Sutra in trying to argue your case. You are also ignoring, as did Mr Ikeda, one very key part of the Gosho he purports to lecture on. I've been saving that, letting you tie yourself in knots first.
>

Spill it and your confused misinterpretation with it, or hold it back with your Tenji-ma gloating: that's your choice.

> I suggest you do your homework and go read Heritage in it's entirety, see if you can spot the extremely explicit paragraph about transmission that directly refutes all your objections and attempts to narrow the debate onto what you foolishly thought was safe ground.
>

Have read it. Ditto "Spill it and your confused misinterpretation with it, or hold it back with your Tenji-ma gloating: that's your choice."

> Consider that me giving you a head start to prepare your defense. Don't worry, I'll easily catch you up and overtake you. It's not hard when SGI and Mr Ikeda's 2009 teaching is so variant with Nichiren's.
>

The 2009 principle pf mentor and disciple, and the 1991 principle, and Mr. Toda's, and Mr. Makiguchi's, and Nikko Shonin's (the finest disciple of the finest mentor, ever!) Nikko Shonin is invariant with respect to Nichiren Daishonin.

[snip the final perfidy of putting words in my mouth, again. That is not unlike lying, if I have never said those words, yes?]

-Chas.

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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Jun 10, 2016, 12:47:28 PM6/10/16

Chas, you forgot to take note:

Let's look into "The Real Aspect of the Gohonzon", and see what Nichiren teaches us.

"This mandala is in no way my invention. It is the object of devotion that depicts Shakyamuni Buddha, the World Honored One, seated in the treasure tower of Many treasures Buddha, and the Buddhas who were Shakyamuni's emanations as perfectly as a print matches its print block."

"It is also stated that the profound principle of the true aspect is the originally inherent Myoho-renge-kyo.[Lotus sutra Chap.2] The Great Teacher Dengyo said, "A single moment of life comprising the three thousand realms is itself the Buddha of limitless joy. this Buddha has forsaken august appearances." [The Treatise on the Secret and Sacred Teachings]

Do you need page#'s-- not sure which text you have.

IF Nichiren were the Original Buddha, teacher of Shakyamuni, WHY wouldn't he claim credit for the SOURCE of the Gohonzon as "his own invention"?

OR REVEAL the identity you claim is is TRUE identity?

With your own presumptions,You, Chas are identifying Nichiren as a cunning, duplicitous teacher-- when it is your Sensei who has earned that title a million times over!!

And that is the crux of the matter. You lost your true mind before you posted your first comment on this site---such is the fate of those who "follow evil teachers".

What happens to your" Ikeda Buddha" religion when your mentor/disciple doctrine is refuted?, or when ALL of your grave errors are exposed?

Oops!! there goes tax exempt status!!

and

Prang ! your cult of personality is dismantled--

and when

Top leaders scramble to find REAL jobs

Chas fails to return from one of his bogus business trips....

and his spamming ends!

~Katie

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 10, 2016, 2:40:58 PM6/10/16

Nice try at taking the thread off course Chas to get away from the main and most imporatant points, you have not cited Gosho to back up mentor disciple transmission, nor to back up your assertion that without this one cannot attain buddhahood.

I have already dealt with your mixing of contexts of "the Buddha as a function of life" with "The Buddha authority to establish the teachings". However, let me very simply demonstrate the fallacy of your argument by performing a substitution of the term "common mortal" from the context you are using for your argument by reading it across into the context of authority to establish the teachings. If the contexts are indeed the same it should make sense, if different it won't. So here goes, here's the original:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/110#para-4

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Presumably bodhisattvas and teachers are common mortals.

So here's the substitution:

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the common mortals and common mortals, but should heed what was established by common mortal".

It doesn't work does it Chas? Again, as with imprecise multi purpose "mentor" labelling, we get a nonsensical mess. That's what's going on in your mind right now Chas, as you fail to recognise the range of applicability for your examples.

Clearly Nichiren is talking about a different context here than that to which your example relates.

Clearly Nichiren wanted to get across something important in the reliances and made distictions of labelling to do that.

So no Chas, it won't do to call the Buddha by a generalised term that the SGI also uses to refer to many other things but especially its leaders, in relation to authority to establish the teachings, which was my point.

Nor is it acceptable to try to lift Mr Ikeda up to the level of The Buddha, by using a general and deliberately vague term, in relation to establishing the teachings. Which was also my point.

In the quote above, Mr Ikeda is a teacher, no more. So this quote could be re-written and still make sense thus:

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and Mr Ikeda, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

If you want to argue he's a bodhisattva too, then we still get:

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the Mr Ikeda and Mr Ikeda, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

This doesn't automatically discount what Mr Ikeda teaches, just that one should gauge that teaching against the benchmark of what The Buddha established, to see if it is clear, accurate and true.

Teaching that one cannot attain buddhahood in the absolute statement Mr Ikeda makes goes against both The Buddha's teaching, tgr Sutra and Nichiren's teaching. Therefore it must be disregarded and Mr Ikeda marked out as a bad teacher, prone to error on important pojnts and key priciples, who distorts the teaching of the Buddha.

Here's the quote in context:

"A sutra says: “Rely on the Law and not upon persons. Rely on the meaning of the teaching and not on the words. Rely on wisdom and not on discriminative thinking. Rely on sutras that are complete and final and not on those that are not complete and final.” The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha. It further means that one should not rely upon the teachings of the True Word, Zen, and Nembutsu schools, which are based upon the sutras of the Flower Garland, Āgama, Correct and Equal, and Wisdom periods,5 but should uphold the sutras that are complete and final. And by relying upon “sutras that are complete and final,” it means upholding the Lotus Sutra."

It is worth noting that Nichiren refers to these reliances frequently, "rely on the Law" search term returns 47 instances in Gosho. Clearly Nichiren thought thus was important. Pity you and the SGI and Mr Ikeda don't. But then if SGI mdmbers did, they might not rely on the SGI and it's leaders. And that Chas is the real reason for this duplicity and guile, your already small and dwindling organusation would become even smaller even more rapidly, where's the profit in that? So make them dependent by making out that Mr Ikeda is comparable to the Buddha rather than the error prone "teacher" he actually is.

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 11, 2016, 12:32:20 AM6/11/16

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/110#para-4
>
> "The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."
>
> Presumably bodhisattvas and teachers are common mortals.
>
> So here's the substitution:
>
> "The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the common mortals and common mortals, but should heed what was established by common mortal".
>

Wrong and out of context.

I was substituting is the same set of statements describing who is the true Buddha (common mortal) and who is a provisional Buddha (Shakyamuni).

Oh, well, you cannot get it, your eyes are blinded to the truth of what Nichiren Daishonin is saying.

But at least I tried.

My point is proven, and you are wrong.

-Chas.

Chas.

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Jun 11, 2016, 1:26:37 AM6/11/16

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 9:47:28 AM UTC-7, ilovedr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Chas, you forgot to take note:
>
> Let's look into "The Real Aspect of the Gohonzon", and see what Nichiren teaches us.
>
> "This mandala is in no way my invention. It is the object of devotion that depicts Shakyamuni Buddha, the World Honored One, seated in the treasure tower of Many treasures Buddha, and the Buddhas who were Shakyamuni's emanations as perfectly as a print matches its print block."
>

Your argument is a non sequitor and is sign of your fallacious reasoning and mental corruption. I never claimed that Nichiren Daishonin invented the Gohonzon, which is a depiction of the ceremony in the air at the moment that the Law is passed from the mentor (Shakyamuni) to the disciples (Bodhisattvas of the Earth, chiefly Jogyo Superior Practices, who is Nichiren Daishonin).

Nichiren Daishonin is the common mortal, who is the true Buddha, as are you and myself. Shakyamuni is a function of our true Buddhahood, this is what Nichiren Daishonin says. Take it or leave it. If you leave it, you cannot believe in the daimoku, which Nichiren Daishonin revealed and that you have to take on faith. He sadi it, I didn't, why do you want to thwart what he says so clearly with all this flak? Just accept it.

According to the Ongi Kuden and thus Nichiren Daishonin, the Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings: the Lotus Sutra in the Parable of the Phantom City chapter identifies the eternal Buddha (the Buddha of Limitless Joy, AKA the Buddha of Beginningless Time) as the grandfather of Shakyamuni, who as one of the sixteen princes, was the son of Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Thus Come One, son of "the grandfather".

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/ott/PART-1/7#para-15

... The Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings says: In
... this passage we learn about the Buddha of the original
... state [that is, the Buddha of limitless joy]. “Grandfather”
... is another name for the Dharma-realm. The first three of
... the ten factors listed in the “Expedient Means” chapter,
... the factors of appearance, nature, and entity, are referred
... to as “grandfather.” Outside of these three factors, there
... is no wheel-turning sage king.
...
... The word “wheel-turning” refers to the phases of birth,
... abiding, change, and extinction. The words “sage king”
... refer to the element of the mind. These three factors,
... appearance, nature, and entity, are the father and mother
... of all the Buddhas of the three existences of past,
... present, and future.
...
... Now, when Nichiren and his followers chant
... Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, they are acting as father and mother
... of the Buddhas of the three existences, as their
... grandfather, the wheel-turning sage king.

That passage refers to this one, the one and only reference to "the grandfather", where the son and father of Shakyamuni, Great Universal Wisdom Excellence, attains enlightenment when "the Law of the buddhas finally appeared before him" :

The Parable of the Phantom City, LS-7, pp 156-157:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/7#para-35

... “Now, monks, the buddha Great Universal Wisdom Excellence
... passed ten small kalpas before the Law of the buddhas
... finally appeared before him and he attained supreme perfect
... p.157enlightenment. Before this buddha left the
... householder’s life, he had sixteen sons, the first of whom
... was named Wisdom Accumulated. These sons each had various
... kinds of rare objects and toys of one kind or another, but
... when they heard that their father had attained supreme
... perfect enlightenment, they all threw aside their rare
... objects and went to where the buddha was. Their mothers,
... weeping, followed after them.
...
... “Their grandfather, who was a wheel-turning sage king,
... along with a hundred chief ministers, as well as a hundred,
... thousand, ten thousand, million of his subjects, all
... together surrounded the sons and followed them to the place
... of enlightenment, all wishing to draw close to the thus
... come one Great Universal Wisdom Excellence, to offer alms,
... pay honor, venerate, and praise him. When they arrived,
... they bowed before his feet, touching their heads to the
... ground.

Aside from that, who knows, I don't. As far as I can tell, the eternal Buddha has no person otherwise identified in the Lotus Sutra. Shakyamuni attained enlightenment after his father.

At any rate, who was first hardly matters, unless you want to worship a statue of the first enlightened one.

I am satisfied that the Buddha leading our regiment of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth is Nichiren Daishonin, AKA Jogyo Superior Practices. He is the mentor whose Gosho I have made my mentor. I practice as he says and only that way. I worship no person and images of no person.

I worship the Gohonzon of the True Aspect of all Phenomena, which, BTW is a topic none of you have touched on, although I have elucidated it fully for your edification.

> "It is also stated that the profound principle of the true aspect is the originally inherent Myoho-renge-kyo.[Lotus sutra Chap.2] The Great Teacher Dengyo said, "A single moment of life comprising the three thousand realms is itself the Buddha of limitless joy. this Buddha has forsaken august appearances." [The Treatise on the Secret and Sacred Teachings]
>
>

Are you listening to yourself? The Buddha of Limitless Joy is without aspect, just as I quoted.

Not a statue of Shakyamuni. Get it?

> Do you need page#'s-- not sure which text you have.
>
> IF Nichiren were the Original Buddha, teacher of Shakyamuni, WHY wouldn't he claim credit for the SOURCE of the Gohonzon as "his own invention"?
>
> OR REVEAL the identity you claim is is TRUE identity?
>

Didn't claim that. Putting words in my mouth is lying. Don't do that.

All common mortals are the true Buddha, led by Nichiren Daishonin. Nichiren Daishonin is the leader of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, AKA Jogyo.

> With your own presumptions,You, Chas are identifying Nichiren as a cunning, duplicitous teacher-- when it is your Sensei who has earned that title a million times over!!
>

This is a pile of crap and wierd supposition, avoid it Katie.

> And that is the crux of the matter. You lost your true mind before you posted your first comment on this site---such is the fate of those who "follow evil teachers".
>

[snip the rest of your drivel.]

-Chas.

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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Jun 12, 2016, 8:08:38 PM6/12/16

Nichiren did not conceal any teaching -

Those who claim he did or would also are those who have gained material wealth and worldly status .

Ponder the difference between the benefits gained by Nichiren & his followers -/ And those claimed by Chas & the SGI

For shame 😓

~Katie

Message has been deleted

Julian

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Jun 13, 2016, 5:12:46 AM6/13/16

Still carrying that thing you have entirely forgotten?

All you are doing is showing any possible lurkers here
that no matter how bad the SGI may be the alternatives
are pretty unpleasant too.

Your fanatacism might be par for the course in the USA
and in, for instance, the competing Muslim sects in the
middle-east but for most of the world it is a complete
turn off.

If you really believe Chas and the SGI are so terrible
the best thing to do is to step back and let the public
see for themselves... unless, of course, you think the
public too stupid to think for themselves which is...
not a good look and counterproductive and utterly false.

I do not dispute you have some knowledge of Nichiren
specifically but of Buddhism in general you are clearly
lacking.. and in terms of Buddhist in it's adjective
sense a million miles away.

Your attachment to things in the Saha world is truly
a sight to behold... not a pleasant sight though.

You're welcome. :D

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 10:50:59 AM6/13/16

I consider the source of your arm chair analysis--
And that I did not ask a deluded mortal
a single question :-)

I have taken faith in the True Buddha's highest teaching, the Lotus Sutra
I have chosen Nichiren as my teacher-
Following him, practicing as he does
Denouncing Chas' the SGI is the Way--

Your attachment to lesser teachings and the small ego is stunning!
Please admonish yourself first--
Since you are the one who has traded gold for filth!
~Katie

Message has been deleted

Julian

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Jun 13, 2016, 12:03:24 PM6/13/16

Thanks for the jargon.

I'm surprised, but not really, that you demean
Myoho Renge Kyo as a lesser teaching.

I devoted my life to the Lotus Sutra 31 years ago
and have never wavered.

Anyway.. at least I have the self-awareness to recognise
and have the common decency to acknowledge my hypocrisy.

ps. And thanks for all the fish. :D

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 2:22:04 PM6/13/16

So you claim ⁉️
you mostly mock the sutra and it's genuine practitioners .
Your superior attitude is not based on the Lotus Sutra- you don't even refute the enemies of the Lotus Sutra / or recognize them.

Julian

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Jun 13, 2016, 2:35:02 PM6/13/16

On 13/06/2016 20:22, ilovedr...@gmail.com wrote:
> So you claim ⁉️
> you mostly mock the sutra and it's genuine practitioners .

I have never mocked the Sutra.

I invite you to submit evidence of your assertion.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that you are an
authority who is empowered to judge who is or who is
not a genuine practitioner.

I have seen evidence that you have an opinion
on such matters, as do we all.

> Your superior attitude is not based on the Lotus Sutra-

You are not qualified to judge me on such matters.

As the Buddha taught on his death bed.

"Seek your own salvation with diligence."
or
"Be a lamp unto oneself."

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 2:36:33 PM6/13/16

Thanks Chas but this post was the context, I set it remember. What I have done with your quote is to try and fit it into that context, using tge same reliance passagecI used in the original post. It doesn't fit. That's ckear, so ypur quote relates to a different context, a different point that is veing discussed.

I repost the original post below, so you can re read it and respind if you can with a suitable post that fits the context. Good luck with that.

I wrote, earlier in this thread:

"Thanks "Chas". There is a lot of conjecture and reasoning in you post but little of substance.

As for Mark's intervention, causation is entirely relevant, unless of course you don't understand or don't believe the last section of the Hoben pon chapter you chant at least 3 times each times you do Gongyo.

Let me refesh your memory before I turn to your post below and refute you based on Gosho. Here is the English translation of the section Shoi sho ho...nyo ze honmak kukyo to.

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/2

"This reality consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning to end.”

I think even you "Chas" will have to agree that everything has to take place within reality and that it is therefore impossible to seperate the ten factors of internal cause, relation, latent effect and manifest effect, particularly the last two as you would suggest Mark does. As the Sutra and Buddha says "and their consistency from beginning to end".

The SGI Buddhist Dictionary, of which you are so beloved, puts it this way:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/49

Briefly, the ten factors are as follows:
(1) Appearance: attributes of things discernible from the outside, such as color, form, shape, and behavior.
(2) Nature: the inherent disposition or quality of a thing or being that cannot be discerned from the outside. T’ien-t’ai characterizes it as unchanging and irreplaceable. The nature of fire, for instance, is unchanging and cannot be replaced by that of water. He also refers to the “true nature,” which he regards as the ultimate truth, or Buddha nature.
(3) Entity: the essence of life that permeates and integrates appearance and nature. These first three factors describe the reality of life itself.

The next six factors, from the fourth, power, through the ninth, manifest effect, explain the functions and workings of life. (4) Power: life’s potential energy.
(5) Influence: the action or movement produced when life’s inherent power is activated.
(6) Internal cause: the cause latent in life that produces an effect of the same quality as itself, i.e., good, evil, or neutral. (7) Relation: the relationship of indirect causes to the internal cause. Indirect causes are various conditions, both internal and external, that help the internal cause produce an effect.
(8) Latent effect: the effect produced in life when an internal cause is activated through its relationship with various conditions.
(9) Manifest effect: the tangible, perceivable result that emerges in time as an expression of a latent effect and therefore of an internal cause, again through its relationship with various conditions. Miao-lo regarded the Buddhist law of causality described by the four factors from internal cause to manifest effect as the distinctive characteristic of the ten factors. It concerns the cause and effect for attaining Buddhahood.
(10) Consistency from beginning to end: the unifying factor among the ten factors. It indicates that all of the other nine factors from the beginning (appearance) to the end (manifest effect) are consistently and harmoniously interrelated. All nine factors thus consistently and harmoniously express the same condition of existence at any given moment.

Now let me turn to refuting the SGI teaching in question. I will also pick up points from your post below and it's misunderstanding based on your shallow and fragmented understanding of how reality works, as described by the Sutra, Tien Tai (Zhi Yi) and Nichiren.

I urge you to consult Gosho directly and chant Daimoku based directly on the mechanism Nichiren prescribes for inheriting the Law (transmission), even momentarily suspending your deeply held belief that the Law somehow comes to you from an external agent (mentor-disciple transmission).

You maybe very surprised by what happens and should you attain the Law by such bold action. Nothing would please me more, in fact not only I will rejoice but you will be patted on the head by the Buddhas of the ten directions.

So to the passage in question.

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice. If we forget the mentor-disciple relationship, we cannot attain Buddhahood. Nor can we achieve eternal happiness or realise kosen rufu. For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is transmitted. Buddhism is the Law of life; and the Law of life cannot be transmitted through words and concepts alone." (Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)

Let's take the first line and refute it first using the Gosho this lecture purports to "lecture" on.

What does Nichiren say about inheriting the Law, it's transmission?

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/29

"Have just carefully read your letter. To reply, the ultimate Law of life and death as transmitted from the Buddha to all living beings is Myoho-renge-kyo. The five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo were transferred from Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, the two Buddhas inside the treasure tower, to BodhisattvaSuperior Practices, carrying on a heritage unbroken since the infinite past. Myō represents death, and hō,life. Living beings that pass through the two phases of life and death are the entities of the Ten Worlds, or the entities of Myoho-renge-kyo."

So this is a transmission that has in fact already occured and is ongoing it is from the Buddha.

You will note that the Buddha has many titles that denote his various functions, "trainer of men" is but one. You will also note that The Buddha has three virtues "Parent, Sovereign and Teacher" of which "Teacher" is only one. Whilst it is true that the Buddha has trained his Bodhisattvas for and inconcievable length of time one should also consider what Buddha undertook that role. The Sutra answers that it is the eternal Buddha.

Mentor is no where mentioned by either Nichiren or the Sutra (it is simply not a term they use). Only teacher and trainer are, there is not an eqivalence between these terms and mentor, just an overlap of meaning (check the dictionary and etymology if you doubt me).

One has to question why SGI has departed from using the precise term of "The Buddha" and substituted in the term "mentor", which it also uses to describe numerous other things, including it's "3 Presidents" and "Mr. Ikeda". There is definitely no equivalence between The Buddha and the SGI leaders in establishing trachings to be relied upon.

Why would the SGI think it OK to reduce The Buddha to simply one of his functions and one of his virtues, using a term that loosely approximates teacher or trainer? Put simply, why has the SGI simplified the Buddha to shoehorn him into it's "mentor" dogma?

Now let's look at the mechanism for inheritance of the Law that Nichiren recommends.

(Ibid)

"Shakyamuni Buddha who attained enlightenment countless kalpas ago, the Lotus Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood, and we ordinary human beings are in no way different or separate from one another. To chant Myoho-renge-kyo with this realization is to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death. This is a matter of the utmost importance for Nichiren’s disciples and lay supporters, and this is what it means to embrace the Lotus Sutra."

You will note

"the Lotus Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood"

It is the Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood, this is why the statement "cannot attain Buddhahood is incorrect" in Mr Ikeda's teaching. All people who meet the Sutra will, whether the believe, disbelieve, slander or are neutral, attain Buddhahood. Not to believe this, is of itself a slander of the Sutra, as both Nichiren and the Sutra tell us.

The mechanism for inheritance of the Law is quite clearly and explicitly "To chant Myoho-renge-kyo with this realization is to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death."

Not all people can have that realisation straight off, so faith is substituted. In the next paragraph is a great example of Nichiren teaching on faith.

(Ibid)

"For one who summons up one’s faith and chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the profound insight that now is the last moment of one’s life, the sutra proclaims: “When the lives of these persons come to an end, they will be received into the hands of a thousand Buddhas, who will free them from all fear and keep them from falling into the evil paths of existence.”

Now let's turn again to your claim about causation not being relevant to the topic, Nichiren, in the same Gosho, disagrees:

(Ibid)

"My followers are now able to accept and uphold theLotus Sutra because of the strong ties they formed with it in their past existences. They are certain to obtain the fruit of Buddhahood in the future."

So "Chas" causality and the workings of reality as described by the ten factors are entirely relevant and they are explicitly mentioned by Nichiren in the very Gosho that Mr Ikeda purports to understand enough to presume to lecture upon.

Clearly you are not only not famiar with the SGI teaching that is on page 115 of a lecture you should have studied if you are indeed the diciple of sensei you claim but you don't appear to have read the actual Gosho before making your statement to Mark!

Let's turn again to the transmission of the Law, it's inheritance, it's heritage. This is what Nichiren again has to say:

"The heritage of the Lotus Sutra flows within the lives of those who never forsake it in any lifetime whatsoever—whether in the past, the present, or the future."

Now comes the qualified statement about Buddhahood together with a clear rationale.

(Ibid)

"But those who disbelieve and slander the Lotus Sutra will immediately “destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world.” Because they cut themselves off from the potential to attain enlightenment, they do not share the heritage of the ultimate Law of life and death."

You will note, it is relation to the Sutra alone that this is made not a "mentor", whatever that means in the SGI multi use "mentor" label jargon.

You will also note that the statement is qualified “destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world.” not absolute as in Mr Ikeda's teaching in this 2009 "lecture" - "If we forget the mentor-disciple relationship, we cannot attain Buddhahood.".

You will also note that in Mr Ikeda's 1979 lecture on the same Gosho, his statement was qualified and had the same form as the Gosho.

This is an important point, as I have said earlier, if one makes the statement absolute one immediately puts oneself in the position of slandering the Sutra. As Never Disparaging states:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/ott/PART-2/20

“I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparagement or arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood.”

You will note the certainty of attaining Buddhahood. To not believe this is to disbelive the Sutra. To disbelieve the Sutra is to slander it.

I ask you "Chas" to look at your own postings and examine their tone and style in the light of the following passage of that same chapter.

(Ibid)

“Among the four kinds of believers there were those who gave way to anger, their minds lacking in purity.”

Now lets turn to Mr Ikeda's assertion that "Buddhism is the Law of life; and the Law of life cannot be transmitted through words and concepts alone."

So if that's true, what is Nichiren doing teaching this then?:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/88#para-8

"Wondering how to resolve this dilemma, I made a vow. I decided that I would not heed the claims of these eight or ten schools, but would do as the Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai did and let the sutras themselves be my sole teacher, in this way determining which of the various teachings of the Buddha’s lifetime are superior and which are inferior. With this in mind, I began to read through all the sutras."

Clearly Nichiren disagrees with Mr Ikeda, words and concepts are indeed the thing that enabled Nichiren to come to a correct veiw.

This Gosho is especially noteable, since it is the writing in which Nichiren details the break with the teachings of his own master (teacher) Dozen Bo. It most directly covers the context of Nichiren's own inheritance of the Law, which was most definitely not through Dozen Bo, although he does credit Dozen Bo for his help. A position I relate to, since I have done likewise with Mr Ikeda.

In another writing, concerning his urge to seek the Law, Nichiren explains:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/84#para-21

"Why did I first begin to chant as I do? Bodhisattva Superior Practices is the one destined to make his advent in this world to propagate the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo. But before he had even appeared, I began, as though speaking in a dream, hardly aware of what I was doing, to utter the words Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, and so I chant them now. In the end, is this a good thing I do, or a bad thing? I do not know, nor can anyone else tell for certain.

"But when I open the Lotus Sutra and reverently peruse it, I see that even the bodhisattvas Manjushrī, Maitreya, Perceiver of the World’s Sounds, and Universal Worthy, who had reached the stage of near-perfect enlightenment, were scarcely able touphold so much as a single phrase or verse of this sutra, because the sutra itself states that it can “only be understood and shared between Buddhas.”

You will note again the reliance on the words and concepts of the Sutra with the mind of Faith "But when I open the Lotus Sutra and reverently peruse it".

And again the specific distinction made by Nichiren between The Buddha and others:

"Only the Lotus Sutra represents the wonderful teaching preached directly from the golden mouth of Shakyamuni Buddha, who is perfectly endowed with the three bodies. Therefore, even Universal Worthy and Manjushrī were hardly able to expound so much as a single phrase or verse of it. How much more difficult then must it be for us, who are no more than ordinary people living in this latter age, to embrace even one or two words of this sutra!"

So are we to take Mr Ikeda as equal to The Buddha? If not, should we not make a clear distiction between The Buddha and Mr Ikeda by not calling them by the same role title. After all, this is what Nichiren has to say about lesser teachers and the distortions they introduce:

(Ibid)

"Because the founders of the various schools read the Lotus Sutra, their respective disciples all assumed that their own teacher had grasped the sutra’s heart. However, if we look carefully into the essence of the matter, we find that the Great Teacher Tz’u-en read the Lotus Sutra while making theProfound Secrets Sutra and The Treatise on the Consciousness-Only Doctrine his teachers, and the Great Teacher Chia-hsiang read the Lotus Sutra while making the Wisdom sutrasand The Treatise on the Middle Way his teachers. Men like Tu-shun and Fa-tsang read the Lotus Sutra while making the Flower Garland Sutra and The Commentary on the Ten Stages Sutra their teachers. And Shan-wu-wei, Chin-kang-chih, and Pu-k’ung read the Lotus Sutra while making the Mahāvairochana Sutra their teacher. All these men thought that they had read the Lotus Sutra. But in fact they had not read so much as a single phrase or verse of it."

You will also note that all of the erroneous teachers Nichiren cites are tied back to words and concepts of the various provisional sutras they follow. In Nichiren land, words and concepts of the sutras are important and only one occupies the highest place, the one that teaches attainment of Buddhahood for all, regardless of belief, disbelief, slander - the Lotus Sutra.

I finish with the benchmark and guide that Nichiren urges:

"A sutra says: “Rely on the Law and not upon persons. Rely on the meaning of the teaching and not on the words.Rely on wisdom and not on discriminative thinking. Rely on sutras that are complete and final and not on those that are not complete and final.” The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Your arrention is drawn to "The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Again we see the clear labelling that Nichiren uses to disinguish Buddha from bodhisattvas and teachers.

Let's try some SGI multi use "mentor" labelling by substituting in the term, as used by the SGI to refer to all these things. This is what we get:

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the mentors and mentors, but should heed what was established by the mentor."

Spot the problem "Chas"? What we get is an unclear, confusing mess and that's exactly what happens in the minds of SGI members that follow the SGI teaching and guidance. This is exactly what the current SGI is encouraging in it's members.

In summary, the Law is not transmitted through the mentor disciple bond nor any other temporal organisational lineage. Such veiws are directly refuted by Nichiren in all the Gosho cited and many others not cited.

External agents are not seperate to the "strong ties" that it's practicioners have already formed with the Sutra. Those ties can either be by embracing the Sutra or forming a reverse relationship with it, as you have "Chas".

Either way Buddhahood is assured. The difference between us "Chas" is that I believe that, so does Mark, Katie and Alex and so we practice with faith in the Sutra.

You do not, you follow a man who explicitly teaches that attainment of Buddhahood is contingent on following a "mentor" that is ill defined as a label and directly slanders the Sutra by teaching disbelief in its central teaching.

The term "mentor" is a wholly inapporopriate to refer to The Buddha, who should be simply called such. It is also wholly inappropriate to suggest that one needs to follow a teacher such as Mr Ikeda to gain buddhahood, especially when he is teaching in this distorted way.

Your turn "Chas", refute me now on Gosho if you can.

Be well :)"

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 2:39:21 PM6/13/16

And so readers can check the consistency of my two posts that relate to tgis subject and check the contexts for themselves, here's the second post:

"Nice try at taking the thread off course Chas to get away from the main and most imporatant points, you have not cited Gosho to back up mentor disciple transmission, nor to back up your assertion that without this one cannot attain buddhahood.

I have already dealt with your mixing of contexts of "the Buddha as a function of life" with "The Buddha authority to establish the teachings". However, let me very simply demonstrate the fallacy of your argument by performing a substitution of the term "common mortal" from the context you are using for your argument by reading it across into the context of authority to establish the teachings. If the contexts are indeed the same it should make sense, if different it won't. So here goes, here's the original:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/110#para-4

"The meaning of this passage is that one should not rely upon the words of the bodhisattvas and teachers, but should heed what was established by the Buddha."

Presumably bodhisattvas and teachers are common mortals.

So here's the substitution:

iainx...@gmail.com

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> You began the Critical of me, the practitioner - you have made snide remarks directed at my practicing as Nichiren taught

A practioner... after a fashion.
Your translation of what Nichiren taught... not mine.

> Not because I have a character flaw or can't "put her down - stop carrying her around
> Your remarks are flippant
> Your intention is ? What ?

At all times I think to myself:
How can I cause living beings
to gain entry into the unsurpassed way
and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha?

Lotus Sutra, Chap 16.

> Since you do not protect the Law_

In your opinion which you have not proven to be authoritative
or in any way more valid than mine.

> Yours is a peaceful , provisional , slanderous practice.

In your opinion which you have not proven to be authoritative
or in any way more valid than mine.

> I don't assess with my own mind. - all I have said responding to your attack is tag lectured on the clear mirror of the Lotus Sutra -

Thanks for the jargon... and all the fish.

Message has been deleted

Julian

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Jun 13, 2016, 5:58:01 PM6/13/16

On 13/06/2016 23:31, ilovedr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think it is there is no comparing a peaceful practice with the practice Nichiren taught -

I think stuff too but I don't demand or even expect
expect anyone else to take it as authoritative.

> And like the decision to chant the daimoku
> , every level and aspect of this practice is personal -
> I don't need to utilize this forum - there's so much pointlessness
> here that - like a bad smell lingering from John Ayres in the
> archives, leaving is just the natural course

As far as Ayers is concerned.. I feel a bit sorry
for people who can't get laid.

Without a doubt I'll see you later...
unless you die of course.

ilovedr...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 6:17:06 PM6/13/16

Without a doubt you won't see me " here " again - in this or any future lifetime ‼️
Peace
~

Julian

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Jun 13, 2016, 6:18:58 PM6/13/16

I thought you'd be back but not so soon.

Cheers.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2016, 6:21:35 PM6/13/16

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Jun 15, 2016, 1:28:56 AM6/15/16

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 9:48:26 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

> "> The term "mentor" is a wholly inapporopriate to refer to The Buddha, who should be simply called such. It is also wholly inappropriate to suggest that one needs to follow a teacher such as Mr Ikeda to gain buddhahood, especially when he is teaching in this distorted way."
>
> Let me remind you:
>
> 1) Of it simply The Buddha as teacher, why not simply refer to him as the Buddha? Nichiren did, why not SGI?
>

Are you referring to the historical Buddha, Shakyamuni, who Nichiren calls a provisional Buddha:

From "The True Aspect of All Phenomena", WND I, p. 383-385:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40#para-4

'“His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas.'

and

'A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so.'

Or are you talking about the true Buddha, who is the common mortal:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40#para-5
'The “true Buddha” here means common mortals, whereas “provisional Buddhas” means Buddhas.'

Both true Buddhas and the provisional Buddhas that are a function of them possess the three virtues of sovereign, teacher and parent. That means they can take on any of the three roles when necessary, I think (otherwise they would not be called "virtues")

Dispute that!

> 2) If one is not seeking to associate the SGI 3 Presidents and Mr Ikeda with the same authority and attributes as The Buddha, why uses the same term "mentor" ambiguously to refer to both? Why not nake the distinctions that Nichiren did?
>

Because there are different kinds of teachers, teachers of the Law, for instance, who are there for all humanity. Mentors are specifically there in your life to help you accomplish something in particular.

Sensei calls Zhou Enlai mentor, because he connected him with what and who he needed to help stop a war between China and the Soviet Union that could have been ruinous to all of us.

> 3) Chas you must know that Nichiren considered teachers and teachings extensively and wrote about them likewise, applying qualifiers good/bad, accurate/inaccurate, true/false. So there are good teachers, teachings and guidance and bad. So why is SGI now so keen to put its 3 Presidents and Mr Ikeda in the same space as the Buddha (assumed to be good, accurate, true), beyond the negative qualifiers, in the minds of its members? It didn't used to, so what's changed and why?
>

I don't see the SGI putting the 3 Presidents into the "same space" as Shakyamuni, who is a provisional Buddha according to Nichiren Daishonin, remember, from the above quotes. Should I repeat them for you?

"A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha."

'The “true Buddha” here means common mortals, whereas “provisional Buddhas” means Buddhas.'

The Three Presidents are common mortals and true Buddhas, like yourself and myself.

See how that works? Mustn't get caught in worshiping a function of your life, like Buddhist gods, or provisional Buddhas you treat as gods and worship as statues, yes?

[snip the rest]

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 3:07:14 AM6/15/16

Lool, as usual Chas this is nonesense and deliberately off the point:

"See how that works? Mustn't get caught in worshiping a function of your life, like Buddhist gods, or provisional Buddhas you treat as gods and worship as statues, yes?"

The point, which you have kindly inadvertantly supported in your attempt to distract, is the reliability, accuracy and trustworthiness to "accomplish something in life", in this case attainment of enlightenment. That's the context of Bichiren's reliances, it's also the context of my post. For this, precise labelling and making the correct distinctions is important, which is my point. It's also Nichiren's point.

I have demonstrated by simple substitutions within that context, that vague and imprecise labelling in that context doesn't work, but and "mentor" "common mortal" produce nonesense when set into that context because the dustinctions produced by using different terms, disappears.

This is only important because Mr Ikeda and SGI teach that one cannot attain enlightement unless the mentor disciple condition is satisfied. The Buddha, the Sutra and Nichiren do not teach that. They teach that entry us through faith in the Sutra alone and all people will attain enlightenment.

Therefore when Mr Ikeda is called "mentor" and "The Buddha" is called "mentor" within that context, one cannot tell the difference, one cannot discuss them seperately nor think about them as distinct entities, which is the point.

So one cannot then correctly apply the reliances, which is the point and wgich it is why the SGI has used this now failled tactic and supports it so strongly. And that's a problem when Buddha, Sutra and Nichiren on one hand and Mr Ikeda and SGI on the other are teaching different things, who to follow? SGI will hope Mr Ikeda and one will notice that Mr Ikeda is modifying and distorting the teachings.

This Chas is why you are arguing so strongly to maintain that unclarity. It allows you to hide in the shadows, it allows you to maintain your unshakable faith in your mentor and the SGI and it allows the latter to sell it's wares.

It won't help though, the jig is up and cat out of the bag. But I'm grateful to you for giving thus topic even more surface area and exposure, the more the better. You are indeed a great instrument if the Law. Keep it up :)

Oh and I'm still waiting for the relevant Gosho quotes to support the SGI postion.

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 16, 2016, 12:58:41 AM6/16/16

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 12:07:14 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

> Oh and I'm still waiting for the relevant Gosho quotes to support the SGI postion.
>

Gosho quotes in my posting WERE relevant.

Mentor as type of teacher. Teacher needed for transfer, teaching is transferring.

The Lotus Sutra can only be tranferred between Buddhas.

So simple.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 3:20:59 AM6/16/16

Nope Chas they were nit rekevant to tge context of the discussion and I have demonstrated that via substitutions. Readers are invited to review the thread and judge that for themselves.

However, since you insist, in the first sententence of the SGI "lecture", let's define the term "mentor" in that sentence. What does "mentor" refer to in that sentence, Buddha? Law? Gohonzon? Nichiren? Mr Ikeda? Three Presidents? Any "common mortal"? Something else.

What is your understanding of it's meaning in that sentence Chas? Be explicit and precise and we'll take the discussion forward on that basis.

Thanks - be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 16, 2016, 1:03:38 PM6/16/16

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

> However, since you insist, in the first sentence of the SGI "lecture", let's define the term "mentor" in that sentence. What does "mentor" refer to in that sentence, Buddha? Law? Gohonzon? Nichiren? Mr Ikeda? Three Presidents? Any "common mortal"? Something else.

>
> What is your understanding of it's meaning in that sentence Chas? Be explicit and precise and we'll take the discussion forward on that basis.
>

What seems completely obvious to me I will put together for you, first here's the quote you so strongly object to from the SGI:

... "Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the
... mentor-disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared
... commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of
... Buddhist practice. If we forget the mentor-disciple
... relationship, we cannot attain Buddhahood. Nor can we
... achieve eternal happiness or realize kosen rufu. For it is
... through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is
... transmitted. Buddhism is the Law of life; and the Law of
... life cannot be transmitted through words and concepts
... alone." (Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of
... Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)

Now for the meaning of the word "mentor" in English, from dictionary.com:

... noun
... 1. a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
... 2. an influential senior sponsor or supporter.
...
... verb (used without object)
... 3. to act as a mentor:
... She spent years mentoring to junior employees.
...
... verb (used with object)
... 4. to act as a mentor to:
... The brash young executive did not wish to be mentored by anyone.

Point 1. I see the adjective wise and trusted (as opposed unwise and untrusted) applied to one of the "three virtues" of the "benevolent functions of sovereign, teacher, and parent a Buddha is said to possess." - SGI dictionary

First off, the refinement of the English term "teacher" that is "mentor" or "wise and trusted teacher" Seems to be implied by the term "benevolent" in the three virtues as opposed to something like "corrupted"?

Even you, who challenges any simple and clearly proven syllogisms without rational restraint, might accept that, but we'll see if your mind is working properly, just on that simple point.

Point 2. A "mentor" by that English definition, is further qualified by following the correct practice of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra, meaning the three practices of faith, study and shakubuku as part of the Kosen Rufu movement of the SGI. The three practices of the SGI arise and are very strongly implied from this final paragraph from "The True Aspect of All Phenomena", WND I, p. 386:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40#para-16

... In this letter, I have written my most important teachings.
... Grasp their meaning firmly, and make them a part of your
... life. Believe in the Gohonzon, the supreme object of
... devotion in all of Jambudvīpa. Be sure to strengthen your
... faith, and receive the protection of Shakyamuni, Many
... Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions. Exert
... yourself in the two ways of practice and study. Without
... practice and study, there can be no Buddhism. You must not
... only persevere yourself; you must also teach others. Both
... practice and study arise from faith. Teach others to the
... best of your ability, even if it is only a single sentence
... or phrase. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

Those words are directly from the mouth of the greatest mentor of the past, present and future, and you should not take them lightly, Iain et al.

Teach others in this context means to be a "wise and trusted teacher" towards those others, according to the English definition of "mentor", yes?

I don't think it is possible to make this any clearer to you, Iain. You would have to be invincibly ignorant not to get it.

-Chas.

P.S., Katie and Mark should notice that the Gohonzon is here defined as the correct object of worship of Nichiren Buddhism, the "the supreme object of devotion in all of Jambudvīpa". Not statues.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 5:46:51 PM6/16/16

It was a simple question, to eguch you have given many words but no answer.

I ask again define the term "mentor" in that sentence. It only require either a word or at the most a sentence.

Let's be clear here, what I am after is to define the term in that context. That really should be simple if it's tgat obvious. Specifically you were asked to define the term in the first sentence, we'll get to the others when we've got thus one clear.

Readers,please note the difficulty Chas is having being straightforward. This is SGI teaching in action, Nichiren didn't have much trouble being clear!

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 17, 2016, 11:40:15 AM6/17/16

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 2:46:51 PM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> It was a simple question, to eguch you have given many words but no answer.
>

On the contrary, my answer was complete and correct to an undiminished mind.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 18, 2016, 12:52:36 PM6/18/16

Great thanks Chas, I had to pick your definition up from the other thread you'd posted in, why not post it here? It would have made things easier!

You wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/iHZW0EQ-viA

"Here is your sentence:

"A Buddhist mentor is: a wise and trusted teacher of the three practices of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra."

Sensei is my mentor."

Can I just check 3 things before we move on.

1) Are you refering to Daiseku Ikeda when you use the term "Sensei"?

2) Can I confirm that the definition of mentor that you have set out above is your understanding of what is meant by "mentor" in the first sentence of the passage under discussion:

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple relationship."

3) Can you confirm that the definition you have given is the same for the second sentence? If it isn't could you give the definition for that sentence please. Thanks.

"The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice."

(Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 18, 2016, 11:43:55 PM6/18/16

On Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 9:52:36 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

[Snip]

> "Here is your sentence:
>
> "A Buddhist mentor is: a wise and trusted teacher of the three practices of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra."
>
> Sensei is my mentor."
>

[snip]

> 1) Are you refering to Daiseku Ikeda when you use the term "Sensei"?
>

In that sentence, yes, although I have other mentors in many other things, Sensei gave me the seed of my faith in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. I have nurtured it, yes, and gotten encouragement from many others at many times: they are also mentors. But Sensei was there at the start of my faith in Buddhism and the Law.

> 2) Can I confirm that the definition of mentor that you have set out above is your understanding of what is meant by "mentor" in the first sentence of the passage under discussion:
>
> "Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple relationship."
>

Absolutely. Like I said, you need to hear about this practice from other people, the ones who get you to a meeting, who teach you to hold the beads and chant, who teach you gongyo, how to give experiences, how to do shakubuku, how to enshrine a Gohonzon, how to do home visits, how to take care of a district and lead meetings, etc.

A wonderful gal, who has passed away now, taught me that when you first start to practice sincerely, you have an amount of compassion that could fit in a thimble. As you practice for others, that changes and grows along with your district. All of that I learned from the mentors of the SGI.

I just wish you had, instead of choosing your current path.

> 3) Can you confirm that the definition you have given is the same for the second sentence? If it isn't could you give the definition for that sentence please. Thanks.
>
> "The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice."
>
> (Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)
>

Yes, as I just stated in detail. The Sangha is formed of a web of compassion and it is all due to the vow we made at the ceremony in the air during the one chapter and two halves of the Lotus Sutra.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 19, 2016, 11:04:30 AM6/19/16

Thanks for clarifying Chas. In this post, I want to make absolute certain about how you understand this passage, so if you don't mind, I'll focus on you in this post. (We can move into how other SGI members/non members might understand it, later.)

1) So are we in agreement that for you at least, these first two sentences carry the meaning:

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the Daisaku Ikeda-disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of Daisaku Ikeda-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice."

And that therefore could be rewritten that way in terms of your practice?

(In other words, that's how you understand the sense of the lecture in terms of your own life and practice and that's the translation you are performing in your head when you read the word "mentor" - "mentor" = "Daiseku Ikeda" - in those sentences.)

If not, let's revisit the definition you've given and could you clarify it?

Where I'd like to get to is a precise understanding of the thing(s) the label refers to, for you, so those references can be dropped into the passage so becomes it explicit and cogent.

2)
Depending on your reponse to 1), I'd also
like to check on how you understand "mentor" in the fifth sentence:

"For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is transmitted."

(Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life - SGI Malaysia 2009 page 115)

Is it the same as in the first two s
entences and could it, for you, thus be rendered:

"For it is through the bond of Daisaku Ikeda and disciple that the Law is transmitted."

Thanks.

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 19, 2016, 12:48:13 PM6/19/16

As usual, in the midst of what was a sincere exchange, you insert twisting and distortion, as is your way.

No, those transformations are incorrect. I could insert the statues you worship in there and it would no more sense. As I said I have many mentors in the SGI, Sensei is first among them and foremost, but they are all mentors: wise and trusted teachers.

-Chas.

Chas.

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Jun 19, 2016, 12:53:39 PM6/19/16

Your fallacious reasoning in this case was taking a general statement and turning it into a general statement with a specific individual reference. The word "mentor" is generalized, no specific names can replace a generalized name and still have a generalized statement that holds.

Of course, you were not intent on making logical sense, it was only sheer sophistry on your part.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 19, 2016, 2:31:50 PM6/19/16

Thanks Chas, lool you go on the attack so easily Chas, chill. I'm after finding out how you understand the passage and it's natural to ask you quesriins to check my understanding, which is why I haven't made assumptions but have checked witg you again and invited you to amend it.

For a recap:

You wrote:

"As usual, in the midst of what was a sincere exchange, you insert twisting and distortion, as is your way."

Far from introducing a distortion, I am trying to understand how you understand the passage. You gave the sentence the definition in response to a question to define the term "mentor" as follows:

You wrote:

> "Here is your sentence:
>
> "A Buddhist mentor is: a wise and trusted teacher of the three practices of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra."
>
> Sensei is my mentor."

I asked:

> 1) Are you refering to Daiseku Ikeda when you use the term "Sensei"?
>

You responded:

"In that sentence, yes, although I have other mentors in many other things, Sensei gave me the seed of my faith in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. I have nurtured it, yes, and gotten encouragement from many others at many times: they are also mentors. But Sensei was there at the start of my faith in Buddhism and the Law."

To make absolutely certain, I wrote:

"Thanks for clarifying Chas. In this post, I want to make absolute certain about how you understand this passage, so if you don't mind, I'll focus on you in this post. (We can move into how other SGI members/non members might understand it, later.)

1) So are we in agreement that for you at least, these first two sentences carry the meaning:"

then wrote:

"And that therefore could be rewritten that way in terms of your practice?

(In other words, that's how you understand the sense of the lecture in terms of your own life and practice and that's the translation you are performing in your head when you read the word "mentor" - "mentor" = "Daiseku Ikeda" - in those sentences.)

If not, let's revisit the definition you've given and could you clarify it?

Where I'd like to get to is a precise understanding of the thing(s) the label refers to, for you, so those references can be dropped into the passage so becomes it explicit and cogent."

So now you have given me a different sentence:

"The word "mentor" is generalized, no specific names can replace a generalized name and still have a generalized statement that holds."

And you have stated:

"No, those transformations are incorrect. I could insert the statues you worship in there and it would no more sense. As I said I have many mentors in the SGI, Sensei is first among them and foremost, but they are all mentors: wise and trusted teachers."

OK so would it be more correct to rewrite it this way:

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the a wise and trusted teacher (of which there are many SGI members, firemost us Daiseku Ikeda) -disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of these wise and trusted teachers-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice."

Here I am using your generalised meaning, I hope as you have conveyed it, and have dropped that in instead.

If you're happy with that, can you confirm that this sense also holds for sentence five please?

Remember, at this stage I'm just interested in how you understand the passage, no others but we'll get to them as soon as we've reached agreement on your understanding.

We'll get there Chas!

Thanks :)

Be well :)

Chas.

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Jun 20, 2016, 3:53:28 AM6/20/16

On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 11:31:50 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Chas, lool you go on the attack so easily Chas, chill. I'm after finding out how you understand the passage and it's natural to ask you quesriins to check my understanding, which is why I haven't made assumptions but have checked witg you again and invited you to amend it.
>
> For a recap:
>
> You wrote:
>
> "As usual, in the midst of what was a sincere exchange, you insert twisting and distortion, as is your way."
>
> Far from introducing a distortion, I am trying to understand how you understand the passage. You gave the sentence the definition in response to a question to define the term "mentor" as follows:
>
> You wrote:
>
> > "Here is your sentence:
> >
> > "A Buddhist mentor is: a wise and trusted teacher of the three practices of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra."
> >
> > Sensei is my mentor."
>
> I asked:
>
> > 1) Are you refering to Daiseku Ikeda when you use the term "Sensei"?
> >
>
> You responded:
>
> "In that sentence, yes, although I have other mentors in many other things, Sensei gave me the seed of my faith in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. I have nurtured it, yes, and gotten encouragement from many others at many times: they are also mentors. But Sensei was there at the start of my faith in Buddhism and the Law."
>
> To make absolutely certain, I wrote:
>
> "Thanks for clarifying Chas. In this post, I want to make absolute certain about how you understand this passage, so if you don't mind, I'll focus on you in this post. (We can move into how other SGI members/non members might understand it, later.)
>
> 1) So are we in agreement that for you at least, these first two sentences carry the meaning:"
>

No, you are again conflating the specific with the general. The only way to build a true general definition by enumeration, which is what you are doing incorrectly, is to enumerate the entire class. In this case it would be stated thus:

"A Buddhist mentor is: a wise and trusted teacher of the three practices of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra, or by enumeration: one of the bodhisattvas of the Earth, who are the followers of Nichiren Daishonin, or the Daishonin himself."

That is a proper definition by enumeration. You slant the definition by short-circuiting the entire list: to make your sophistic point.

> then wrote:
>
> "And that therefore could be rewritten that way in terms of your practice?
>
> (In other words, that's how you understand the sense of the lecture in terms of your own life and practice and that's the translation you are performing in your head when you read the word "mentor" - "mentor" = "Daiseku Ikeda" - in those sentences.)
>
> If not, let's revisit the definition you've given and could you clarify it?
>
> Where I'd like to get to is a precise understanding of the thing(s) the label refers to, for you, so those references can be dropped into the passage so becomes it explicit and cogent."
>
> So now you have given me a different sentence:
>
> "The word "mentor" is generalized, no specific names can replace a generalized name and still have a generalized statement that holds."
>
> And you have stated:
>
> "No, those transformations are incorrect. I could insert the statues you worship in there and it would no more sense. As I said I have many mentors in the SGI, Sensei is first among them and foremost, but they are all mentors: wise and trusted teachers."
>
> OK so would it be more correct to rewrite it this way:
>
> "Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the a wise and trusted teacher (of which there are many SGI members, firemost us Daiseku Ikeda) -disciple relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of these wise and trusted teachers-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice."
>

Here you are conflating the specific with the general, and that may be the source of your issues with mentor and disciple, overall: you can only accept mentoring with someone of your stature, which I suppose would be Shakyamuni.

How-so-ever-that-is, here is my proper reformulation of the general defined by enumeration:

Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple (both of whom are of the bodhisattvas of the Earth, who are the followers of Nichiren Daishonin, or the Daishonin himself) relationship. The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor-disciple forms the essence of Buddhist practice.

Stated this way it makes it clear that we are affiliated together from beginningless time, with Nichiren Daishonin as our eternal leader: joined by a vow made in beginningless time.

> Here I am using your generalised meaning, I hope as you have conveyed it, and have dropped that in instead.
>
> If you're happy with that, can you confirm that this sense also holds for sentence five please?
>

Can't remember what sentence five is.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 20, 2016, 12:05:08 PM6/20/16

Thanks Chas, I'm not trying to do anything but get a clear understanding of how you interpret mentor in those sentences. I was up front before your last moan, about where I wanted to getto and you could have been helpful then by rewriting the passages as you understand them.

Could you do likewise for senyenve five please, which is:

"For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is transmitted."

Thanks.

Be well :)

Chas.

unread,

Jun 21, 2016, 12:06:36 AM6/21/16

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:05:08 AM UTC-7, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:

> "For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple that the Law is transmitted."
>

becomes:

For it is through the bond of mentor and disciple (both of whom are of the bodhisattvas of the Earth, who are the followers of Nichiren Daishonin, or the Daishonin himself) that the Law is transmitted.

This reemphasizes the quote from Chapter 2, Expedient Means of the Lotus Sutra: "The true aspect of all phenomena can only be understood and shared between buddhas."
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/2#para-6

Have I fallen into your "trap" yet?

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 21, 2016, 3:01:12 AM6/21/16

Thanks Chas, I'm short on time this morning, so will respond more fully later.

You wrote: "Have I fallen into your "trap" yet?" Chas, my mind cannot "trap" you, only yours can do that if that's what it seeks. Do you seek to entrap yourself?

My veiw is clear and already set out, I regard "mentor" as an imprecise label, which brings unnecessary ambiguity and creates confusion, in that last point you are on record as agreeing with me.

What I'm about here is straightforward, returning to clarity by carefully defining the terms and being explicit about how you understand them in your frane of reference before moving forward with the debate.

We'll turn to your veiw of how others might understand these terms after we've got your understanding clarified.

I hope that's helpful. :)

Have a great day! Be well :)

iainx...@gmail.com

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Jun 21, 2016, 1:15:16 PM6/21/16

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40#para-16

... In this letter, I have written my most important teachings.
... Grasp their meaning firmly, and make them a part of your
... life. Believe in the Gohonzon, the supreme object of
... devotion in all of Jambudvīpa. Be sure to strengthen your
... faith, and receive the protection of Shakyamuni, Many
... Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions. Exert
... yourself in the two ways of practice and study. Without
... practice and study, there can be no Buddhism. You must not
... only persevere yourself; you must also teach others. Both
... practice and study arise from faith. Teach others to the
... best of your ability, even if it is only a single sentence
... or phrase. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

Those words are directly from the mouth of the greatest mentor of the past, present and future, and you should not take them lightly, Iain, Alex, Katie and Mark Rogow.

Teach others in this context means to be a "wise and trusted teacher" towards those others, according to the English definition of "mentor", yes?

-Chas.

Katie Higgins

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Jun 23, 2016, 2:15:16 AM6/23/16

And you ignored the early warning signs of demon infestation !!

The character MYO , huh??

I don't know whether to laugh or cry--
Surely, you can't possibly NOT realize that you could not be any further from a follower of Nichiren if you lived at the bottom of the farthest most distant galaxy---
Ever READ , I mean really read Nichiren's writings-- ALL that have been translated into English?
Please get on it if you haven;t, because otherwise you won't get how absurd your musings are!!

Chas.

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Jun 24, 2016, 7:49:21 PM6/24/16

Just being honest, that's what I perceived. I hide nothing from you. It was a surprise to me as well, but that's what came out of my life when I saw Sensei up close for the first time.

I have wonderful experiences in front of the Gohonzon and every time I chant, as well, every day.

I am truly happy, from the top of my head, to the tips of my toes, every cell. Happy. Joyous, even.

My worst day is OK, simply because of the daimoku I chant.

I wish I could get every living being to feel as happy and hopeful as I do.

If the BBC is right, Britain just exited Europe and we are in for some tumultuous times ahead.

Everybody needs to fasten their seat-belts, as Bette Davis said. Bumpy ride coming.

-Chas.

Katie Higgins

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Jun 25, 2016, 3:34:45 AM6/25/16

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:49:21 PM UTC-4, Chas. wrote:
> Just being honest, that's what I perceived. I hide nothing from you. It was a surprise to me as well, but that's what came out of my life when I saw Sensei up close for the first time.

Did you consult Nichiren's writings to verify the *sign* that came from your life? Did you ever notice how *revelations of the mind* were called, *the workings of the devil king"?, by Nichiren, the one true teacher for the Latter Day of the Law? Nichiren says: "Rely on the Law not upon persons" Your Ikeda Senseless says: "Without ME yu cannot attain Buddhahood" Notice the difference?!

>
> I have wonderful experiences in front of the Gohonzon and every time I chant, as well, every day.
>
> I am truly happy, from the top of my head, to the tips of my toes, every cell. Happy. Joyous, even.
>
> My worst day is OK, simply because of the daimoku I chant.
>
> I wish I could get every living being to feel as happy and hopeful as I do.
>
> If the BBC is right, Britain just exited Europe and we are in for some tumultuous times ahead.
>
> Everybody needs to fasten their seat-belts, as Bette Davis said. Bumpy ride coming.

I addressed each of these statements on another post where you responded with all but the last two sentences-- though you are noticing the condition of the world, you aren't relating it to the SGI worldwide KR movement--yet. But you have shown the huge disparity between your life condition and most of the people who care deeply about the *kalpa of decline* that coincides with the proliferation of your Mentor's conglomerate !! Body and shadow-- sound familiar??

~Katie

> SGI Membership Numbers - 40% drop since 1988 to 2016.
>
> This is a great example of the tactics Chas (and his SGI media management masters) use to try and defend against something that undermines their claims, in this case their own published membership figures.
>
> In these links is analysis of the claimed current membership published by SGI and a comparison against 1988 figure. There is also calculation and comparison with global population growth across the period to 2016, to give a real terms comparison.
>
> Conclusion, had SGI just kept pace with population expansion, today it would be 29 million, if it had grown modestly in real terms, it should be about 40 million or more today. Instead it's 12 million.
>

[snip the rest of your bilge]

OK, we are talking at cross-purposes, let's deal at this point by point. First, let's deal with Soka Gakkai Japan.

1. Mr. Minoru Harada is the current President of Soka Gakkai Japan and he is also the acting President of the SGI. He is currently running the operation of both the Soka Gakkai Japan AND the SGI, and his statistics WILL BY DEFINITION TRUMP ANY OTHER STATISTICS YOU MIGHT QUOTE. So, when Mr. Harada says that the Soka Gakkai Japan has eight million households, THEN THAT IS THE NUMBER and all other sources are incorrect. I don't care where those numbers you quoted came from, Mr. Harada's number IS THE OFFICIAL NUMBER NOW.

Are we clear on that? Whoever else you might quote from the SGI who has a different opinion on that number, AND I DON"T CARE WHO THEY ARE, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG AND MR. HARADA IS 100% RIGHT.

You have your right to your opinion, m'Lord Iain, but not to your own private set of facts.

2. According to the official Japanese government census:

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/c0117.htm

There are currently, according to the 2017 census, 126.93 million living Japanese right now in 53.33 million households. Their statistics have roughly 4 significant figures and thus greater precision than ours. Nevertheless, according to that ratio (and the bigger the numbers, the more precise the ratio,) there are 2.830 Japanese per household.

3. Taking that ratio to heart (and you simply have no choice,) in eight million Japanese Soka Gakkai households there are 19 million Japanese who live in a Soka Gakkai household with a Butsudan containing a Gohonzon. Or, 20 million if you care about data significance. That is, by the way, precisely 15% of the population of Japan.

As you well know, in a Japanese household it is the custom for Japanese people, to show respect for the family shrine (altar, Butsudan, Gohonzon,) and that means bowing and doing occasional Sansho (three daimoku.)

This, according to Nichiren Daishonin, is sufficient to constitute the practice of Buddhism, since Gongyo is a formality.

Ipso facto, the world SGI member numbers you quote at twelve million are wrong by at least seven million, or rather 37% off. That is very close to your 40% deficit number. Once you add the rest of the world SGI membership you will exceed 20 million easily, which exceeds your 40% number precisely.

-Chas.

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