GD / Rosicrucian Programme Booklet -- Focus on Organizations
catherine yronwode
-- i have been very busy at work, with less time for hobby projects, and
the mean-spiritedness of those who have posted allegations and slurs
about me has certainly lessened the joy i earlier took in the project.
Here is the latest iteration of the ORGANIZATIONS section of the
document. I am hoping that dates and membership numbers might be
supplied by MEMBERS rather than put-downs supplied by ANON snipers --
but even the latter are welcome to participate, of course.
ORGANIZATIONS
(XXX NOTE! This list is INCOMPLETE and will be revised until May 31st
Ahathoor Temple in Paris
(affiliated with Griffin's HOGD (after Griffin split from Cicero))
(run by Jean Pascal Ruggiu says ANON Jean)
(ANON Jean: "The Ruggiu 'Ahathoor' as we know, is just a modern
revival and how active it is I don't know though one GD identity
[note, the term "one GD identity is so unspecific as to be fairly
meaningless; was it a person? if so, who?), when holidaying in
Paris, tried to find its address and could not do so - the numbers
on the street didn't appear to go that high.") [This is a weak
accusation; a common street map would prove or disprove the claim.]
AMORC Ancient Mystical Order of the Rosy Cross
(founded by H. Spencer Lewis; headquartered in San Jose, California)
(well known for its beautiful Egyptian museum and outreach programs
through popular magazines whereby it sells a correspondence course)
(battled Clymer's RF in an earlier Rosicrucian grudge-match, 1935)
("there are other 'inner' groups in AMORC that operate rather
differently to the external manifestation. Some of them operate using
alternate lineages and materials they would not want the broader
membership to be aware of," says ANON Jean)
(Clymer, fronting his own RF group, claimed in the book "The
Rosicrucian Fraternity in America" (1935) that one of the AMORC's
"alternate lineages" was a 1921 charter from the OTO of Aleister
Crowley, which he described as "a black cult of the Black Brotherhood";
he further claimed that Crowley was "the Black master and Secret
Chief" of AMORC's leader H. Spencer Lewis)
AOMR, August Order of the Mystic Rose
(Chief adept is Robert Word; order allied with Griffin's HOGD A+O)
(ANON Jean: "I think the August Order of the Mystic Rose is more or
less a one-man-band [...] Robert will soundly deny this I am sure.")
BOTA, Builders of the Adytum
(founded by Paul Foster Case, using some teachings of original HOGD)
(ANON Jean claimed Robert Word said something (but what?) about BOTA)
EOGD, Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn
(leader is Robert Zink, an ally of Chic Cicero)
(EOGD "improperly licensed" by Chic Cicero" claims ANON Trevor)
(said by ANON Jean to not be too involved in the Cicero-Griffin fight)
(said by Trevor Walker to be the creator of Griffin defamation sites)
(major anti-EOGD poster is ANON Trevor, self-proclaimed "proud"
HOGD A+O member who in 2006 condemned "[the] EOGD; where bloodletting,
mutilation, flogging, and the 'blood on the rose' is part of the
non-traditional additions of your 5=6 initiation ceremony. Indeed,
filed under the list of requirements for Zink's, EOGD's, 5=6
Adeptus Minor initiation ceremony is 'Razor Blades and Bandages'."
-- but how non-EOGD ANON Trevor came to know this is unknown)
FLO typo for FOL Fellowship of Light ???
(mentioned in a post by ANON Jean)
(ANON Jean claimed Robert Word said something (but what?) about FLO)
FARC Freres-Aines de la Rose-Croix
(founded by (?) Roger Caro says ANON Jean)
(Caro had claimed Templar lineage dating to 1318, says ANON Jean)
(contains a subset called by ANON Jean "Freres-Aines researchers")
(transmitted Templar lineage to Griffin and Ruggiu, says ANON Jean)
(were in "esoteric transmission" contact with Griffin, says ANON Jean)
(lineage had been made with forged documents in the 1970s, says ANON Jean)
(falsified documents admitted by Carmain, who was "a Priory of Sion
researcher," says ANON Jean. This happened "during a sequence of events
that involved Carmain's grandfather," says ANON Jean.)
(after this, FARC ceased esoteric contact with Griffin says ANON Jean)
HOGD Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
(late 19th century British occult order with its own schismatic history)
HOGD-C "Chic Cicero's GD", Cicero's Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
(based in Florida)
(ANON Jean: "members of Chic Cicero's GD organisation had established
successful temples in the UK in the early years of this decade [200s]")
(ANON Jean: In Feb, 2007, HOGD-C "won a lawsuit entitling it to sole
use of the HOGD name and acronym in the USA.")
(ANON sria_scams: "Actually, Griffin was sued by Cicero in a frivolous
lawsuit which tried to prevent Griffin from using the HOGD name in the
USA. Cicero lost, Griffin is still using the name, and now Cicero eats
dog food after having bankrupted himself in the process.")
(ANON Jean: "order is more widespread [than HOGD-G] but we are talking
about 50 pertemple. Surely less than 1000 [members] total.")
(ANON sria_truth: "there are between 30-50 active members left in
Chic's
order."
HOGD-G HOGD A+O "Griffin's GD", Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn Alpha
+ Omega
(repeatedly accused of being a Nazi front by the anon. posters
gdtruth666 and gd.insight, who post defamation website URLs to usenet)
(ANON Jean: In Feb. 2007 lost a lawsuit to Chic Cicero and may no longer
use the HOGD name and acronym in the USA")
(ANON Jean: the court decision has not been enforced in the USA as of
May, 2007, which may be a moot point due to Griffin's relocation to
Germany)
(ANON sria_scams: "Actually, Griffin was sued by Cicero in a frivolous
lawsuit which tried to prevent Griffin from using the HOGD name in the
USA. Cicero lost, Griffin is still using the name, and now Cicero eats
dog food after having bankrupted himself in the process.")
(ANON sria_scams: "Griffin's order still today calls itself the
Hermetic
Order of the Golden Dawn because it won the right to do that while
bankrupting Cicero in the process.")
(ANON Jean: "alleged to have as few as 24 longterm members," in 2007)
(ANON sria_truth "Griffin's order has 2,800 active members and
Griffin's
[Yahoo] forum has 8,000 members," May, 2007)
(ANON Jean: Griffin's "USA temples said to have been closed in 2006")
(ANON emailer: "Griffin did indeed lose a lot of members [between
2005 and 2007], including his former "3rd in command" Mark Christie
in mid-2006. There was only one temple left in North America
when Christie quit, in Ottawa, and it was being run by a 2=9
named Mark Bolks. The temple they had in the UK (in Kent)
was run by a 0=0 named Russell Murdoch [...] When he
resigned some [...] chose to remain with Griffin, notably
Trevor Walker.")
(ANON sria_scams: "Griffin's HOGD/A+O still operates temples in both
Sweden and in the UK [...] HOGD/A+O still operates temples throughout
Europe and NorthAmerica [no mention of USA] and is larger than ever
following their defeating Cicero in court [in 2007]")
HOMSI, Hermetic Order of the Morning Star Incorporated (?)
(said to be a "cult" led by "known sexual predator Robert Zink"
by anonymous anti-Zink posters, 2006 XXX get names of ANONs and log them)
(said by ANON Jean to not be involved in the Cicero-Griffin HOGD fight)
(said by ANON emailer to have reorganized as the EOGD when Chic
threatened Zink with a lawsuit over the GD trademark, then gave them
a GD charter because Griffin had stolen the trademark and Chic was
essentially asserting his right to bestow the trademark.
OSOGD Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn
(Chief adept is Sam Webster; group formed circa 2003)
(ANON tristrasting: "alleged" to be Satanists)
(alleged to be Satanists in Wikipedia but allegation withdrawn; check
Wiki history of OSOGD page for names of page revisers)
(ANON emailer: in 2003 they got a Cicero GD warrant during the
Griffin thing, granting them right to use the name Open Source Order
of the Golden Dawn but this was naked licensing -- XXX define naked
licensing-- during settlement proceedings, Cicero's lawyer Zimmerman
avoided this pitfall on the basis of Cicero's ignorance of trademark
law.)
RF Rosicrucian Federation
(Reuben Swinburne Clymer's organized bowdlerization of the works of
Paschal Beverly Randolph ("The Rosicrucian"); battled AMORC in the
1930s,
most notably claiming that AMORC was chartered in 1921 by the OTO,
which
latter Clymer characterized as "a black cult of the Black Brotherhood;"
Clymer's scurrilous attacks on the AMORC did not dim its popularity.
XXX cite Clymer's book)
RO A+O Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega
(An order that is umbrellaed with Griffin's HOGD, hence HOGD A+O)
SCRIF Societas Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatus
(ANON Sar Draconis (see Robert Word) is Adeptus Exemptus --
usenet, May, 2007)
(SCRIF claims to be "the only regular and masonically recognized branch
of the Societas Rosicruciana located within the territory of the United
States" -- usenet, May, 2007)
Sexual Magic and Alchemical Order
(ANON Jean claims this is one of "the other orders allied to Griffin."
No further details supplied.)
SIM Sovereign Imperium of the Mysteries
(ANON Jean says this is a family of orders spuriously chartered by
Desmond Bourke)
SOM-OGD Sanctuary of Ma'at - Order of the Golden Dawn
(XXX add ANON emailer material re Mark Griggs, who also got Cicero GD
warrant during the Griffin thing same deal as HOMSI/EOGD and OSOGD --
add all, plus add naked licensing note same as for OSOGD and EOGD)
SR+C Sodalitas Rosae+Crucis
("a large and rather convoluted order" in Sweden, says ANON Jean)
(used material pilfered from Griffin and other orders, says ANON Jean)
(may no longer continue to exist, says ANON Jean)
SRIAmerica, SRIAm, Soc Ros in America, Societas Rosicruciana in America
(an American Rosicrucian Society)
(led by "Plummer" and "Mother Serena, Plummer's widow" says ANON Jean)
("had temples in places like Liberia and Sierra Leone owing to the
immigration of African-Americans to those countries" and "may have had
maybe one thousand active members at a time then" says ANON Jean)
(operated "a correspondence course [...] like AMORC, and probably
relying on that and publishing Plummers' books, they remained a large
enough operation to function from 1909 until today [2007], says ANON Jean).
("laboured under an early accusation of AE Waite that the order had no
claim on Rosicrucian history and no legitimacy. Gilbert, a fan of
Waite's,
rescued the group from this overly-eager dismissal by Waite, proving
that the Order did have 'valid' connections and did conduct itself
in as 'authentic' a manner as could be expected." -- ANON Jean, 2007)
("salvaged" in 1997 by R. A. Gilbert at a GD conference, says ANON
Jean)
(the Gilbert paper that "rescued" and "salvaged" the reputation of the
SRIA was titled 'The Lost Stepchild in America' according to ANON Jean)
(Lucia Grolsch was Imperatrix of the SRIAm circa 1997, says ANON Jean)
(ANON Jean says, "The Imperatrix-ship of Lucia Grolsch (or Grosch) led
to a decline to 'a fraction' of those previous numbers. ... I am sure
the group was never even 10% the size of AMORC, so at best, probably a
few thousand members in its heyday seems reasonable.")
(Grolsh responsible for bad "land deal" that hurt SRIAm, says ANON Jean)
(Cicero pistol-whipped octagenarian Lucia Grosch, in the 1980s, according
to ANON sria_scams. This anonymous claim is so extraordinary it should
be
read in full; see it under the heading for Grolsch / Grosch)
(order recognised by Chic Cicero's HOGD, claims ANON Jean)
(current Imperatrix is Maria Babwasingh)
SRIAnglia, SRIAn, Soc Ros in Anglia, Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia
(a British Rosicrucian Society founded in 1865)
(R. A. Gilbert is a member, claims ANON Jean)
(a member of the SRIAn, Desmond Bourke, issued false charters
and gave rites to anyone who asked during the 1960s-70s says ANON Jean)
("the material [that Word and Griffin] asserted proved [that SRIA
lineage had been stolen from Mackenzie material meant for the
original HOGD] was suppressed by the SRIA in 1947 and was to do
with other matters entirely" (!!!) claims ANON Jean, then clarifies,
"The 'suppressed' material Word and Griffin alleged was about a
stolen lineage was about an early feud in the SRIA. They suppressed
it (dumb idea, by the way) because it was uncomfortably close to a
feud that was going on in the SRIA at the time, about 1947. The SRIA
is hardly the bed of roses that some commentators must wish to pretend.")
(in a paper "titled 'SRIA Mothers or Thieves?' [David Griffin]
suggested
... that the SRIA[n] had 'stolen' a [Mackenzie] lineage intended for
the
GD," says ANON Jean)
Whare Atua
(ANON Jean alleges this temple is allied with the Griffin HOGD A+O and
then says: "Whare Atua is a strange New Zealand outfit run by a fellow
[not named] who appears to be mentally very unwell. This isn't just
'dissing' it's based on every conversation I've ever had with him and
reflections from everyone else I know who's talked to him. He has
'charters' from almost everything, including administrative letters
from AMORC and 'charters' from two orders I know to have been made up
as a joke." [This begs the question of who would be making up or
inventing Rosicrucian or Golden Dawn orders "as a joke" -- and why.]
I want to thank those who have contributed. Please post any
further information, corrections, testimonies, verifications, or
objections, please!
cat yronwode
je...@jeandecabalis.org
Re: Whare Atua
> Whare Atua
> (ANON Jean alleges this temple is allied with the Griffin HOGD A+O and
> then says: "Whare Atua is a strange New Zealand outfit run by a fellow
> [not named] who appears to be mentally very unwell. This isn't just
> 'dissing' it's based on every conversation I've ever had with him and
> reflections from everyone else I know who's talked to him. He has
> 'charters' from almost everything, including administrative letters
> from AMORC and 'charters' from two orders I know to have been made up
> as a joke." [This begs the question of who would be making up or
> inventing Rosicrucian or Golden Dawn orders "as a joke" -- and why.]
My friend David Griffin brought the above to my attention.
About myself: I am married (have been for 15 years to the same person)
I am financially secure (own two detached house properties. One near
business CPD in the city and other seaside resort lifestyle. Though
admittedly due one of life's temporary cash flow issues, one of them
is now for sale to increase revenue. I am successfully raising a
family of four children, all with various strengths academic or music/
sports as their various awards testify. I am university educated and
qualified (data-communications) and only just failed the Menza
entrance exam. I do not smoke marijuana, nor do I take any forms of
drugs and only a light social drinker. I play guitar (both classical
and rock) hence this means the ability to read music is required. I
reguarly train at Karate and also do a little Yoga. In summary, i am
an extremely rational person, and unlike the various symptoms the
insane whom are irrational and generally unable to look after their
own lives, let alone the lives of others with any success.
The only thing that could be considered mildy insane is the occult,
which is a hobby of mine. If anyone has come to any conclusion from
any email communications with me, that i am insane when discussing the
occult, then i suggest that these anonomous and cowardly posters are
very likely less intelligence than myself, less successful and
certainly less knowledgable of the occult and the mental gymnastics
and word plays that are commonly practiced by magicians operating at
a high level! If i have a fault it is my own neurosis, which is not
insanity, but rather a well known symptom recognised by cultural
anthropologists whom have investigated persons whom practice
witchcraft.
Amazingly there is a lot of disinformation, politics and bullshit
within the alt.magick community, and the posting about the Whare Atua
and other things is a fine example of the undiscipled, ignorant,
cowardly and immature conduct i have come to expect from many persons
involved on alt.magick and this is one of the reason i avoid this
group.
I am not going to reply to the other disinformation on "ANON Jean"
postings. There are good valid reasons for everything that is done,
even when done in fun. Members of magicks.jeandecabalis.org and
whare.atua.temple.jeandecabalis.org
and various other groups are aware of these.
Magick is a Romantic Pursuit enjoy it.
Jean de Cabalis
morgandrake
Order of the Rosy Cross) was started in 2000; it has one lodge--Bast
Temple, Denver, Colorado (though the leader is getting upitty, so
someday...), and it is Golden Dawn in the Outer.
I really don't envy you trying to write an item such as this. I
recently tried writing an unbiased history of Golden Dawn, and it was
hard work.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/253167/a_brief_history_of_golden_dawn.html
paul...@comcast.net
> (mentioned in a post by ANON Jean)
> (ANON Jean claimed Robert Word said something (but what?) about FLO)
Not a typo, Cat. Fraternitas Lux Occulta, Brotherhood of the Hidden
Light. viz:
I thought you or Tyagi were already familiar with them, as with Sam's
OSOGD. They have been around at least 15 years. I initiated a member
of FLO into OTO about, I dunno, a bit over a decade ago had to be,
since I was living in Poolesville at the time, and come to think of
it, I believe my own initiator had spoken well of FLO which is getting
onto 20 years back.
Paul
teletourgos
> Here is the latest iteration of the ORGANIZATIONS section of the
> document. I am hoping that dates and membership numbers might be
> supplied by MEMBERS rather than put-downs supplied by ANON snipers --
> but even the latter are welcome to participate, of course.
>
> ORGANIZATIONS
>
> (XXX NOTE! This list is INCOMPLETE and will be revised until May 31st
>
> Ahathoor Temple in Paris
> (affiliated with Griffin's HOGD (after Griffin split from Cicero))
> (run by Jean Pascal Ruggiu says ANON Jean)
> (ANON Jean: "The Ruggiu 'Ahathoor' as we know, is just a modern
> revival and how active it is I don't know though one GD identity
> [note, the term "one GD identity is so unspecific as to be fairly
> meaningless; was it a person? if so, who?),
TT:
It was a senior member of an established GD group. If the Griffin
group feels the Paris address physically exists, they can always post
a link to it.
> AMORC Ancient Mystical Order of the Rosy Cross
> (founded by H. Spencer Lewis; headquartered in San Jose, California)
> (well known for its beautiful Egyptian museum and outreach programs
> through popular magazines whereby it sells a correspondence course)
> (battled Clymer's RF in an earlier Rosicrucian grudge-match, 1935)
> ("there are other 'inner' groups in AMORC that operate rather
> differently to the external manifestation. Some of them operate using
> alternate lineages and materials they would not want the broader
> membership to be aware of," says ANON Jean)
> (Clymer, fronting his own RF group, claimed in the book "The
> Rosicrucian Fraternity in America" (1935) that one of the AMORC's
> "alternate lineages" was a 1921 charter from the OTO of Aleister
> Crowley, which he described as "a black cult of the Black Brotherhood";
> he further claimed that Crowley was "the Black master and Secret
> Chief" of AMORC's leader H. Spencer Lewis)
TT:
The 'inner' groups of AMORC I am speaking of are not related to
Clymer's accusation. They do not practise OTO rituals, but
Rosicrucian and Martinist ones. There are many, as AMORC is a large
organisation and it is not to be surprised that senior members all
over the world hunger for more than AMORC's watery offerings.
Some have distinct lineages that are not recognised by AMORC. One had
a Martinist lineage from Russia at one time, another had links from
the OHTM in Belgium. Others are just informal groups within the main
organisation that do 'unauthorised' magical and theurgic work. This
occurs in various countries AMORC operates in.
> (mentioned in a post by ANON Jean)
> (ANON Jean claimed Robert Word said something (but what?) about FLO)
TT:
He had a tempestuous relationship with FLO at one time. I believe
they advanced his partner to the inner order but not him, and this
caused inevitable upset.
> FARC Freres-Aines de la Rose-Croix
> (founded by (?) Roger Caro says ANON Jean)
> (Caro had claimed Templar lineage dating to 1318, says ANON Jean)
TT: 1316
> (contains a subset called by ANON Jean "Freres-Aines researchers")
TT: No. just the few people who examine the FARC's history. Not a
group as such.
> (transmitted Templar lineage to Griffin and Ruggiu, says ANON Jean)
TT: No. They were created in 1973 (and backdated some of their early
publications to 1968) so could not have transmitted Templar anything
to anyone.
> (were in "esoteric transmission" contact with Griffin, says ANON Jean)
TT: These 'transmissions' were the FARC rituals and study materials,
not an 'etheric' link or something like that. Basically the Griffin
order got hold of some old documents.
> (lineage had been made with forged documents in the 1970s, says ANON Jean)
> (falsified documents admitted by Carmain, who was "a Priory of Sion
> researcher," says ANON Jean. This happened "during a sequence of events
> that involved Carmain's grandfather," says ANON Jean.)
> (after this, FARC ceased esoteric contact with Griffin says ANON Jean)
TT:
No. FARC had ceased to exist in the early 90s. The 'esoteric
transmissions' eg ,the documents circulated in print and on the web
afterwards.
>
> (ANON sria_truth: "there are between 30-50 active members left in
> Chic's
> order."
TT: Absolute rubbish. One large Cicero temple alone has 35 members.
> (ANON Jean: "alleged to have as few as 24 longterm members," in 2007)
> (
> (ANON Jean: Griffin's "USA temples said to have been closed in 2006")
> (ANON emailer: "Griffin did indeed lose a lot of members [between
> 2005 and 2007], including his former "3rd in command" Mark Christie
> in mid-2006. There was only one temple left in North America
> when Christie quit, in Ottawa, and it was being run by a 2=9
> named Mark Bolks. The temple they had in the UK (in Kent)
> was run by a 0=0 named Russell Murdoch [...] When he
> resigned some [...] chose to remain with Griffin, notably
> Trevor Walker.")
TT:
Quite true. The remaining Griffin temple was in Canada. The US
members defected to Cicero and the US temples collapsed.
Whether Griffin travelled to Sedona is neither here nor there. I
could jump on a plane and do the same thing, but it doesn't prove I'm
running an order in the USA.
> (ANON sria_scams: "Griffin's HOGD/A+O still operates temples in both
> Sweden and in the UK [...]
TT:
I have an email from the UK temple telling me that it is not currently
active.
> RF Rosicrucian Federation
TT: Dont know this but the Max Heindel order is the Rosicrucian
Fellowship.
> (Reuben Swinburne Clymer's organized bowdlerization of the works of
> Paschal Beverly Randolph ("The Rosicrucian"); battled AMORC in the
> 1930s,
> most notably claiming that AMORC was chartered in 1921 by the OTO,
TT:
Lewis merely had a 'Gage of Amity' with Reuss's OTO, not a charter.
AMORC does not like to trumpet this association anymore.
> Sexual Magic and Alchemical Order
> (ANON Jean claims this is one of "the other orders allied to Griffin."
> No further details supplied.)
TT:
I don't. Griffin's website does.
> SR+C Sodalitas Rosae+Crucis
> ("a large and rather convoluted order" in Sweden, says ANON Jean)
> (used material pilfered from Griffin and other orders, says ANON Jean)
> (may no longer continue to exist, says ANON Jean)
TT: I am [[not sure]] it currently exists. I would not say it did
not exist.
Whare Atua
(ANON Jean alleges this temple is allied with the Griffin HOGD
A+O and
then says: "Whare Atua is a strange New Zealand outfit run by
a fellow
[not named] who appears to be mentally very unwell. This isn't
just
'dissing' it's based on every conversation I've ever had with
him and
reflections from everyone else I know who's talked to him. He
has
'charters' from almost everything, including administrative
letters
from AMORC and 'charters' from two orders I know to have been
made up
as a joke." [This begs the question of who would be making up
or
inventing Rosicrucian or Golden Dawn orders "as a joke" -- and
why.]
TT:
You would be surprised how many 'orders' are created as private
jokes.
In this case, the persons wanted to see what Jean de Cabalis would do
if given a 'secret' transmission of authority.
He immediately put the charter on his Yahoo group for all to see.
Jean
fairp...@yahoo.com
The above is, as usual, utter bullshit. You must bear in mind that
Teletourgos is a pro-Cicero troll and constantly attempts to
DELIBERATELY misrepresent the truth to the detriment of Griffin's
order and their affiliates. Yes, there were schisms in the past in
Griffin's order and Russel Murdoch and Mark Christie were indeed both
expelled, as well as another Cicero spy who was a Croatian. These guys
had been offered advanced grades by Cicero to try and foment schism,
but got thrown out on their asses instead. There are, however, still
several temples aof Griffin's order active in the USA as well as in
Canada, the UK, Sweden, France, Germany, Brazil, Mexico, and other
places that Maria Babwasing's sock puppet, Teletourgos, does not have
an inkling of. Cicero's order and Babwahsing's SRIA, however, are
miniscule today after all of most members deserted them, fed up with
both Chic's and Maria's constant legal harrassing of other orders and
former members who dared to raise their voice against the abuse going
on in those two orders. The email that Maria has is old and from an
expelled member.
Why is it, Cat Yronwode, that all of the misrepresentation from TT is
included in your synopsis, but all rebuttals are conveniantly left
out? Do you call this objective reporting. I call it propaganda fro
both you and Teletourgos. What you are publishing certainly no longer
has anything whatsoever to do with truth at this stage. You
incorporate every silly rant from Teletourgos then deliberately and
consistently ignore and omit all factual information to the contrary.
How can you write anything objective when your editorial bias is
obviously so pro-Cicero?
Sar Draconis
> > SR+C Sodalitas Rosae+Crucis
> > ("a large and rather convoluted order" in Sweden, says ANON Jean)
> > (used material pilfered from Griffin and other orders, says ANON Jean)
> > (may no longer continue to exist, says ANON Jean)
>
> TT: I am [[not sure]] it currently exists. I would not say it did
> not exist.
There is so much that the Teletourgos Troll pretends to be sure of
that isn't so, that I'm surprised there is anything she pretends not
to be sure of, but still isn't so.
Sar Draconis
> Jean
teletourgos
nomenklatural styling that online Griffin apparatchiks seem to prefer,
has perfect freedom to contest anything I have said and present his
evidence.
Note that he does not.
Jean
je...@jeandecabalis.org
>
> You would be surprised how many 'orders' are created as private
> jokes.
>
> In this case, the persons wanted to see what Jean de Cabalis would do
> if given a 'secret' transmission of authority.
>
> He immediately put the charter on his Yahoo group for all to see.
>
Teletourgos, you must try to 'truthfully' misrepresent the facts. The
game much harder when played that way! Nevertheless, NO. NOT
IMMEDIATELY. *Fact = 3 & 1/2 years later* You really need to sharpen
you wit, if you want remain invisible and stay mentally challenged.
Jean
Sar Draconis
> The SAR-Draconis-Griffin-Defamation-Troll, to give him the
> nomenklatural styling that online Griffin apparatchiks seem to prefer,
> has perfect freedom to contest anything I have said and present his
> evidence.
Hi Jean,
You have busied yourself defaming a great many groups and individuals
with false information and claims, but it is neither my task nor my
labor to dignify your repeated defamatory lies with a reply.
You probably think that either we don't know who you are, or that we
can't find out. The truth is quite the contrary: we already know who
you are, but we don't care.
Now if you will permit me, I have more important business to attend
to.
Best regards,
Sar Draconis
teletourgos
What matters is the facts. I'm here to provide Cat with information
on this programme booklet. If you have anything useful to say on
this, direct it to her.
As far as this involves you, to any extent, it harks back to an
earlier thread where you were offering 'information' on the
SRIAmerica.
Dishonest information, because you neglected to inform the reader of
your particular history with that group.
So don't bother to trouble me with your nonsense about defaming
orders.
Jean
inlvxveritas
> Yes, there were schisms in the past in
> Griffin's order and Russel Murdoch and Mark Christie were indeed both
> expelled, as well as another Cicero spy who was a Croatian. These guys
> had been offered advanced grades by Cicero to try and foment schism,
> but got thrown out on their asses instead.
I try not to come here, but I see it is necessary to set the record
straight.
I tendered my resignation from Griffin's HOGD/A+O on January 9, 2006. I
had zero contact with Cicero or his order at any time before then.
Their "expulsion" was sent to me on April 12, 2006. Kinda hard to throw
someone out on their ass when they've been gone for over three months.
I might also add they posted said "expulsion" letter to their public
forum, disclosing personal and private information, in contravention of
their 0=0 and 5=6 oaths. Shows the character of their remaining two
chiefs.
Consider this: If the HOGD/A+O would "out" their own Cancellarius, is
any of their members' personal information really kept confidential?
Also kinda ironic that fairplaygd is complaining about Teletourgos'
"deliberate misrepresentation" in one breath and presents his own
deliberate misrepresentation in the next.
Now I believe people can fairly assess fairplaygd's credibility with
regards to his claims of temple statuses and desertions, both Griffin's
and Cicero's, etc.
Licht, Liebe, Leben,
-In LVX Veritas/Mark Christie
susanwhi...@yahoo.com
No spy who has been caught will ever admit it. In this case there
exists evidence
to the contrary. Chic Cicero actually bragged once in his kitchen in
the presence
of myself and two other Florida temple members that he had three spies
in
Griffin's order: one in England, one in Canada, and Mark Christie in
the USA.
Tom
<susanwhi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180747910....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> No spy who has been caught will ever admit it.
Except Francis Gary Powers, of course.
fairp...@yahoo.com
In fairness to Mr. Christy, I thought that I would investigate the
matter of
his expulsion further. I therefore went through the archives of the
Hermetic-Order-Of-The-Golden-Dawn Forum. What I found I append
below. The message traffic presents a picture of a a young man
desperate for attention and recognition, apparently in need of
psychological counseling.
--- In Hermetic-Order-o...@yahoogroups.com, "V.H. Frater
D.e.D.I." <VHFraterDeDI@...> wrote:
> Avete,
> Pursuant to action taken by the Chief Adept, the following Writ of
> Degradation and Expulsion with Prejudice concerning Mark Christie,
> formerly Frater I.L.V., also formerly Frater L.K.A., is published by
> our Office:
> "From: "Golden Dawn Admin" <admin@...>
> To: "In LVX Veritas" <Inlvxveritas@...>
> Cc: "VH Frater DeDI" <VHFraterDeDI@...>; "Jean-Pascal
> Ruggiu" <jp.ruggiu@...>; "Robert Word" <DrRobWord@...> Sent:
> Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:43 AM
> Former Frater LKA (ILV),
> Due to the gross irresponsibility surrounding your departure from
> our Order, you are herewith formally degraded to Lord of the Paths
> of the Portal and expelled with prejudice from the Rosicrucian
> Order of A+O.
> Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum Yeheshua,
> GH Frater LES
> Chief Adept
> Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
> Rosicrucian Order of A+O."
>
> LVX,
> VH Frater D.e.D.I.
> Praemonstrator Ordinis
--- In Hermetic-Order-o...@yahoogroups.com,
"luxexseptentrionis" <luxexseptentrionis@...> wrote:
> It has come to my attention that a demoted and expelled member
> of our order, former frater ILV, has been publicly misrepresenting
> the international structure of the Rosicrucian Order of A+O, as well
> as the circumstances surrounding his initiation into the 5=6 grade,
> in an attempt to avoid his demotion and expulsion from our order
> and to undermine the sovereignty and initiatic authority of the North
> American jurisdiction or the Rosicrucian Order of A+O. Serious
> misrepresentations published by former Frater ILV have prompted
> me to publicly clarify several structural features of our order.
> First of all, I would like to state for the record that there is only one
> Rosicrucian Order of A+O founded by S.L. MacGregor Mathers in Paris,
> and that the Ahathoor Temple No. 7 has always been and shall always
> remain the Mother Temple of our order. Nonetheless, the North American
> jurisdiction of the A+O as well as the jurisdiction in France each operate
> as sovereign entities, which nonetheless exist with full amity and
> reciprocity between one another.
> Upon his request, as an extrordinary favor to former Frater ILV at the time,
> I personally obtained permission for him to be initiated into 5=6 in Paris.
> As the American and the French jurisdictions of the A+O enjoy full amity
> with one another, this request was granted as a matter of course by the
> Chief Adept of the French Jurisdiction, GH Frater D.L.S, and the initiation
> was carried out as per my request. It must be emphasized, however, that
> at no time was former Frater ILV either a member of the French Jurisdiction
> of the A+O, nor of the Ahathoor Temple No. 7 in Paris, but was always a
> member of the North American jurisdiction of the A+O.
> Last January, former Frater ILV resigned and his resignation was accepted
> "without prejudice." This means basically that he left on good terms and
> would likely have been allowed to return should he ever have wished to
> do so. Unfortunately, ILV later showed such great irresponsibility following
> his departure that a follow-up writ of expulsion "with prejudice" was recently
> issued additionally reducing him to "Lord of the Paths of the Portal."
> (It is a little known fact that there is a long standing HOGD tradition that
> whereas any member of the Outer Order may be reduced to the 0=0 grade
> of Neophyte in disciplinary action, an Adept of the Second Order may never
> be reduced to less than a "Lord of the Paths of the Portal.")
> In a silly, misguided attempt to undermine the authority and sovereignty
> of the North American Jurisdiction of the Rosicrucian Order of A+O,
> former Frater ILV has publicly attempted to challenge the validity of
> said writ of expulsion and reduction in Grade issued by my office, by
> virtue of the fact that he was initiated into 5=6 in Paris. It is clear, however,
> that former Frater ILV was always a member of the Rosicrucian Order
> of A+O under its North American jurisdiction and that thus there can be
> no doubt of the validity of the writ of expulsion and reduction in grade
> issued by my office. Nonetheless, in light of former Frater ILV's public,
> misguided attempt to play the French and North American Jurisdictions
> of the A+O one against the other, I have discussed the matter today at
> length with GH Frater DLS of the French Jurisdiction. GH Frater DLS has
> stated that according to the terms of our amity, he fully respects the
> sovereignty of the North American jurisdiction of our order as well as
> its right to issue the aforementioned writ of expulsion and reduction in
> grade without further ratification.
> Thus, the matter of the political end-run by former Frater ILV attempting
> to undermine the initiatic authority and the sovereignty of the North American
> jurisdiction of the Rosicrucian Order of A+O is now a settled matter. If former
> Frater ILV wishes to misrepresent himself as an Adeptus Minor of an
> imaginary order created by himself he is welcome to do so. He is not,
> however, welcome to misrepresent himself as a Neophyte Adeptus
> Minor of the Rosicrucian Order of A+O.
>
> Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, Yeheshua,
> GH Frater LES
> Chief Adept
> Rosicrucian Order of A+O®
> Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®
> cc: GH Frater DLS, Chief Adept, French Jurisdiction, Rosicrucian Order of A+O®
> VH Frater DeDI, Chief Legal Advisor, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®
--- In Hermetic-Order-o...@yahoogroups.com,
"luxexseptentrionis" <luxexseptentrionis@...> wrote:
> It has come to my attention that former Frater ILV unfortunately is
> continuing his misguided search for recognition. Following my statement
> clarifying the international structure of our order, former Frater ILV
> has circulated the following appeal to other 7=4's of the Rosicrucian
> Order of A+O, which they forwarded to me so that I might encourage
> him to seek out the help he obviously needs.
>
> inluxveritas@..., Mark Christie (former Frater ILV) wrote:
> >Fratres,
> >I am writing you because I have talked with you, met you,
> >and worked with you in the Golden Dawn. I consider you friends.
> >I also consider you men of character. By now, you have probably
> >seen my public "outing" on the HOGD forum, among other such
> >posts by that order's Praemonstrator and backed by its Chief Adept.
> >I apologize for being direct and putting you on the spot, but I tire of
> >these petty political power plays and simply want to know straight out.
> >Do you condone or condemn the practice of posting to a public forum,
> >which includes people both inside AND outside the pale of the order,
> >an expulsion of an ex-member, INCLUDING his/her mundane name,
> >Outer Order AND Inner Order mottoes?
> >I await your responses.
> >Fraternally,
> >Mark C.
>
> Dear former Frater ILV,
> Please remember that your resignation was originally accepted
> "without prejudice" despite the irresponsible manner
> in which you left and you failure to to tie up numerous loose ends
> upon your departure from our Order. It was not until months later
> when you began to publicly harass a former student of yours from our
> order that a writ of "expulsion with prejudice" was issued and
> you were reduced in grade. Regarding your spurious claim that
> you were somehow "outed," please note that you "outed" yourself
> long ago and that my publicly confronting you was entirely provoked
> by you as well.
> Instead of simply accepting your expulsion with dignity,
> you instead have deliberately attempted to undermine the initiatic
> authority of our order and the sovereignty of its North American jurisdiction.
> When that did not work, you began yesterday to clandestinely circulate the
> above email. Mark, this sad spectacle has gone on far enough.
> It is time for you to stop this nonsense, to accept your expulsion and reduction in grade
> with a modicum of dignity, and to move on. I sincerely wish you good luck in all of your
> future spiritual endeavors. I would, however, suggest, that you re-read my article on
> "Israel Regardie, Initiation, and Psychotherapy." It is archived on our web site at:
> http://www.golden-dawn.com/temple/index.jsp?s=articles&p=initiation
> Mark, I am well aware of the nature
> of the psychological issues that have gotten activated in you, and the
> real reasons why you are behaving so irrationally. No, Mark, I will NOT publicly
> "out" you about what is really going on here. I do, however, most strongly
> recommend that you finally find a good therapist and work through
> your psychological issues once and for all. Please bear in mind that spiritual and
> personal growth must go hand in hand. It is time for you to focus on the
> psychological dimension of your development for a while. With time, I am confident
> that you may yet achieve the balance and humility which are characteristic
> of a true Adept. As things stand now, your behavior merely reinforces my decision.
> Good luck on your path.
> Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, Yeheshua,
> GH Frater LES
> Chief Adept
> Rosicrucian Order of A+O®
> Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®
teletourgos
> I try not to come here, but I see it is necessary to set the record
> straight.
>
> I tendered my resignation from Griffin's HOGD/A+O on January 9, 2006. I
> had zero contact with Cicero or his order at any time before then.
>
> Their "expulsion" was sent to me on April 12, 2006. Kinda hard to throw
> someone out on their ass when they've been gone for over three months.
>
> I might also add they posted said "expulsion" letter to their public
> forum, disclosing personal and private information, in contravention of
> their 0=0 and 5=6 oaths. Shows the character of their remaining two
> chiefs.
>
> Consider this: If the HOGD/A+O would "out" their own Cancellarius, is
> any of their members' personal information really kept confidential?
>
> Also kinda ironic that fairplaygd is complaining aboutTeletourgos'
> "deliberate misrepresentation" in one breath and presents his own
> deliberate misrepresentation in the next.
>
> Now I believe people can fairly assess fairplaygd's credibility with
> regards to his claims of temple statuses and desertions, both Griffin's
> and Cicero's, etc.
>
> Licht, Liebe, Leben,
> -In LVX Veritas/Mark Christie
>
TT: I do not know Mark and have never been in any order with him, but
what I have heard of the way in which a number of members left the
Griffin order is consistent with what Mark says.
I'll leave it at that for now.
I did initially say my information was from anonymous sources, who
desire to remain that way, and folk will have to make up their own
minds. Which is what we should all be doing anyway, surely.
Jean
inlvxveritas
> No spy who has been caught will ever admit it. In this case there
> exists evidence
> to the contrary. Chic Cicero actually bragged once in his kitchen in
> the presence
> of myself and two other Florida temple members that he had three spies
> in
> Griffin's order: one in England, one in Canada, and Mark Christie in
> the USA.
Then present your evidence. Because right now, it is my direct
testimony vs. your second-hand hearsay...and the burden of proof is on you.
I'm not holding my breath, though...considering your post was from a
Yahoo account fabricated the same day.
(http://profiles.yahoo.com/susanwhite200789)
Cat, if I may make a recommendation. One way to determine the
credibility of anonymous posters is the track record of their
account/alias. Teletourgos, although anonymous, has had a long standing
here of sharing commentary and inside knowledge with the community. I
would suspect that any posts from recently-created Yahoo accounts are
likely more interested in spewing propaganda than helping you get at the
truth.
LVX,
Mark
inlvxveritas
> In fairness to Mr. Christy, I thought that I would investigate the
> matter of
> his expulsion further...
Well, not really...because if you were interested in fairness, you would
have just as easily found my rebuttal in the Golden Dawn Meeting Place
archives:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goldendawnmeetingplace/message/4433)
Subject: Re: [goldendawnmeetingplace] Re: HOGD/A-O in Europe (continued)
reformated (sorry)
--------------------
Hi, Sam...
Needless to say, I agree with your points. The fact that I quoted
something that Griffin wanted posted immediately as "official statement"
and never got there still means it had Griffin's stamp of approval. To
say otherwise now is simple political posturing because it is
"inconvenient". And still, your point of the violation of several oaths
by Hevia go unanswered. I cannot help but be wildly amused whenever Mr.
Hevia calls something or someone else "unethical".
This actually leads to the second point: misrepresentation. As they seem
to like to repeat themselves whenever they don't have a viable defense,
I really need to set the record straight on a couple of things. I
apologize in advance as, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't care less.
Mr. Griffin would have you believe that he did me an “extraordinary
favor” by granting his authorization for me to be initiated into the 5=6
grade. However, this is only but part of the story. The part that he is
not telling you is that, although I had made this request at the
beginning of May 2005, he was pushing for me to advance into the Second
Order as early as January of that year.
The following small sampling of emails proves my claim:
(Note that I was the only person in the “Tech Support Department” and
the sup...@golden-dawn.com email account was mine since about January
2004 or so. Also note that I was initiated into the Portal Grade in May
2004.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Bi-Weekly reports
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:12:35 +0100
From: Golden Dawn Admin <ad...@golden-dawn.com>
To: Golden Dawn Support <sup...@golden-dawn.com>
References: <DFE2A478-5FE9-11D9-9575-000A95EF9A74@...>
<41DE168F.9050906@...>
Forget the prior months. Please just start sending in reports now. I
want to get you into 5=6 as soon as possible.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: ]
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:13:34 +0100
From: Golden Dawn Admin <golde...@golden-dawn.com>
To: Golden Dawn Support <sup...@golden-dawn.com>
References: <4214416C.7020804@...>
Perfect. Please do so right away. I would like to speak to you soon
again on the phone to try and motivate you to get back to work on your
bi-weekly reports. I do not want to pressure you...but I do want to
reward you with advancement.
--------------------
So my request to advance to 5=6 was as personally prompted and
encouraged by Mr. Griffin a full four months before I asked for it.
There were also a number of phone calls where he said the same, even
before January, but obviously they cannot be presented here as evidence.
Secondly, Mr. Griffin would have you believe that he personally made the
arrangements for my 5=6 initiation. He did give his authorization, yes.
However, the emails below will show the rest of the story:
(Note: the 011-331 prefix is the international code for Paris, France
(011 = International, 33 = Country Code for France, 1 = City Code for
Paris). The local 8-digit number has been omitted for the sake of M.
Ruggiu’s privacy.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Scheduling...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:19:40 -0700
From: Golden Dawn Admin <golde...@golden-dawn.com>
To: Golden Dawn Support <sup...@golden-dawn.com>
References: <42805A57.8070702@...>
I would be pleased to get you into the second order. I will not be able
to attend Corpus Christi this year due to my work schedule. Please phone
Jean-Pascal Ruggiu directly at 011-331XXXXXXXX and speak directly to him
about it. Please be personal and polite in your approach. Ahathoor has
no obligation and it is difficult for them to do a 5=6 in English.
Nonetheless, if you ask him nicely, J-P will make arrangements for you.
Mention that you were initiated into Portal by Robert Word on my behalf.
Robert will be there by the way for CC this year which they will
celebrate at the end of May. Be aware that Jorge is supposed to be there
for 5=6 as well (if he actually follows through this time...I doubt it).
Your presence there could be embarrassing for him. He will just have to
deal with that.
> On May 9, 2005, at 11:53 PM, Golden Dawn Support wrote:
> Ave et GH Frater...
>
> With Mom's ailments and such, I need to start carefully managing my
vacation time.
>
> I know I've sent you two months worth of reports. I know they are on
the lean side, but
> they have a few highlights, and they should show that I have covered
all of the Portal
> grade rituals at least once. Things will pick up again once we're
fully moved in and
> back from Niagara Falls...because we will at last have a dedicated
temple room once
> again!
> If there is more that you want to see from me in my reports, please
let me know.
>
> Cutting to the chase, I'm wondering about Corpus...if I am invited
for a 5=6 initiation et
> al...and what dates events would be held at Ahathoor.
>
> What would really be cool is if we somehow figured out a way that we
can fly together
> to Paris... :^)
>
> Fraternally in LVX,
> -H. Frater I.L.V.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Scheduling...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:30:39 -0700
From: Golden Dawn Admin <golde...@golden-dawn.com>
To: Golden Dawn Support <sup...@golden-dawn.com>
References: <42805A57.8070702@...>
<5a22ade7ad18079c96699971e909d228@...>
<42817CBC.2090201@...>
Call JP and do not worry. Cosidering recent events it is quite
important that you get into the 2d order right away.
On May 10, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Golden Dawn Support wrote:
> Fortunately, I have studied 5 years of French...so, if necessary, I
> could get a bit of a refresher in vocabulary, and perhaps I would be
> able to follow along with a 5=6 "en Français".
>
> One question though...Is M. Ruggiu expecting my call? I would not
> wish to turn him off by a surprise phone call from some Yankee he's
> never heard of before. ;^)
>
> (Would it be impolite or improper of me to attempt to speak to him in
> French? I know some consider it a compliment, others an insult...and
> my French is a rusty at best...)
>
> If all goes well, I will see if I can coordinate with Robert as well...
>
> Fraternally in LVX,
> ~ILV~
----------------------------------------
Please feel free to draw your own conclusions. All I will say about this
is that it is often said that half-truths are worse than outright lies.
Lastly, yes, I may just contact M. Ruggiu to verify information. The
past three times Mr. Griffin had spoken on M. Ruggiu's behalf, about
"how disappointed" he was in the manner I resigned, he had not known
anything about it. (Talk about misrepresentation...)
But all in all, this means very little in the grand scheme of things.
I'm with ROFL and Zontar that, at this point, I wear my public expulsion
from the online Rosicrucian Order of AO as a badge of honor. The way
their leadership has conducted themselves recently clearly indicate that
they have no clue what it means to be Rosicrucian. It is one of the many
reasons why I resigned in January. However, regardless of how many times
they fire me how many months after I quit to make themselves feel
better, it is the truly important things they can never take away from
me. They cannot take away the fact that I was the first American in over
20 years to be initiated into 5=6 at Ahathoor Temple. They cannot take
away my experience of being initiated into the Vault of the Adepti. And
they cannot take away the connection M. Ruggiu bestowed upon me that day
on Corpus Christi 2005.
Therefore, in the Light of Truth, I remain…
-V.H. Frater I.L.V.
(Ecstatic "Free Agent")
S. Scarborough wrote:
>Avete:
>
>There are a couple of points I would like to address here.
>
>The first is Mr. Hevia's questioning of ethical practices by Mark
>Christie concerning posting "alledged" documentation that "may" have
>belonged to Griffin's website. While saying that the posting of said
>documents in a public forum is unethical is one thing, I do believe
>that Mr. Hevia would have a bit better ground to stand on had he and
>the order which he represents not already engaged in an unethical act
>in the PUBLIC posting of Mark Christie's mottos and name in a public
>forum, which is a clear violation of several oaths within Standard
>esoteric Orders, especially within the Golden Dawn Community.
>
>The second point for consideration is this: Possible
>misrepresentation. There is a pattern of misrepresentation concerning
>just whom Mr. Griffin and Mr. Hevia can speak for. For instance, I
>draw attention to several legal letters that purported to speak on
>behalf of Chic Cicero, which were sent out to several orders which
>use the Golden Dawn name. Neither Mr. Griffin nor Mr. Hevia had such
>a right to misrepresent themselves in such a manner.
>
>One has to ask whether or not that once again there is a case of
>misrepresentation. This time with Mr. Hevia and Mr. Griffin
>misrepresenting a fact and speaking on behalf of someone that they
>may not have the authority to do. The possibility exists in light of
>past performance.
>
>To Mr. Christie, I would say to contact the Chief Adept of Ahathoor
>Temple in Paris and see if he gives you the same information that Mr.
>Hevia has. At least, you will know the exact status in regards to
>where you got your initiations and whether the said announcements
>concerning you are correct.
>
>Of course, in the long run, you did quit and may not be interested in
>such a course of action.
>
>In LVX,
>Samuel
>
Soror M.D.L.L.
You have quite a bit of nerve to come out to alt.magick and pose your
self-aggrandizement theories to the public. As someone who is very
disappointed by your twisted misinformation with regards to the HOGD/
A&O, and exposed to your unethical behaviors, experienced first hand,
I am compelled to point out some facts for the sake of clarification.
1) You promoted schism in the HOGD/A&O. My finance, another HOGD/A&O
member, and I , active members of the HOGD/A&O were subject to the
indirect attempts by both you and your wife via private phone calls to
our home presenting the order, our Chief Adept, David Griffin and our
Praemonstrator Ordinis,Jorge Hevia in a very poor light and supporting
other members active in clearly schismatic activities. I firmly
believe that since you knew my fiance personally and your wife was my
tutor at the time, that you could influence both of us to leave. But
of course it did not work.
2) Since your posting here has really proven to be false and accusing
the HOGD/A&O for mistreating you, which I believe to be false, since
it clearly appears you are exploiting for the sake of your own ego, I
decided to educate my self a bit and find out more about the events
when you left. This is what I found out- You had requested the ZAM
curriculum from David Griffin the day you " resigned" from the HOGD/
A&O since it was not released to you prior, based on the leadership of
the HOGD/A&O not trusting you. Also, you called Jorge Hevia inquiring
about the legal strategies of our order.
Now, I cannot prove this particular point as I was not personally
involved in those communications, but it sure leads me to wonder if
indeed you were not alone in your attempts to dissolve our order. Why
would you request the ZAM curriculum when you had already" resigned
without prejudice" and why on earth would you even care to know about
the legal strategies moving forward in an order you were no longer a
member of ??? I think it is more than just a coincidence.
3) You were expelled from the HOGD/A&O for the reason that you
inappropriately published personal information about HOGD/A&O members
publicly. I know this first hand, since you attacked and posted
private information about my fiance on another forum during the
schism. Information he wanted specifically to keep private. You even
dragged my family into the picture also. This really hurt him and
myself that you would do such a thing. We both knew you ( myself via
phone conversations at least and my fiance even in person). Since that
malicious attack event , I have been firmly convinced you were no
longer some inherently good guy with a cause that just had some
personality conflicts with the HOGD/A&O leasdership. That which should
have been Hermetically sealed, was betrayed by you. You are a
traitor!
4) Very imperative here also is the fact that your claims to the HOGD/
A&O temples in Canada and the Mid-West USA, no longer existing, is
wholly a false lie. Or perhaps you just assumed the temples would
crumble without you ? Wrong !
I hate to disappoint you Mark, but those temples still exist today,
just without you ! When the egotistical leaders of the temples left/
got expelled, there were loyal HOGD/A&O members that just picked up
where the few disillusioned snakes left off. Yes, believe it or not
Mark, all the bad eggs got tossed out and you were never really that
important. You keep trying to prove to everyone how much of an asset
you were to the HOGD/A&O, when those that remain know otherwise.There
are also more members now in the HOGD/A&O than when you were in the
order - I can vouch for this as I have students spanning 3 continents
and I am very busy.
Mark, as a fellow IT professional, a parent and household provider,
former sister of yours as a Soror in the HOGD/A&O, I do not think my
perceptions of your actions and the motivations behind them are far
off as far in assessing your insincerity, your purposes of satisfying
your desire for control and need for public recognition. How much
longer can you lie to other people through posting nonsense ? How much
longer can you lie to yourself and convince yourself through a martyr
complex ? You burned your own bridges. No one else is accountable for
your actions. I suggest you just deal with it.
Pax et LVX,
Soror M.D.L.L.
aka. Leigh-Ann Grace-Bachman
On Jun 2, 12:24 pm, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> the supp...@golden-dawn.com email account was mine since about January
> Therefore, in the Light of Truth, I remain...
> >Samuel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
catherine yronwode
>
> susanwhi...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > No spy who has been caught will ever admit it. In this case there
> > exists evidence
> > to the contrary. Chic Cicero actually bragged once in his kitchen in
> > the presence
> > of myself and two other Florida temple members that he had three spies
> > in
> > Griffin's order: one in England, one in Canada, and Mark Christie in
> > the USA.
>
> Then present your evidence. Because right now, it is my direct
> testimony vs. your second-hand hearsay...and the burden of proof is on you.
>
> I'm not holding my breath, though...considering your post was from a
> Yahoo account fabricated the same day.
> (http://profiles.yahoo.com/susanwhite200789)
>
> Cat, if I may make a recommendation. One way to determine the
> credibility of anonymous posters is the track record of their
> account/alias. Teletourgos, although anonymous, has had a long standing
> here of sharing commentary and inside knowledge with the community. I
> would suspect that any posts from recently-created Yahoo accounts are
> likely more interested in spewing propaganda than helping you get at the
> truth.
>
> LVX,
> Mark
This is an excellent point, and if i had the free time or was being
paid, i would certainly do that sort of a background check on the ANON
posters.
Logging a list of the ANON Golden Dawn poster names and observing what
those names say about other people is a wonderful way to learn about the
many types of Golden Dawn orders in this world and what their members
know about the Light. There's a Bible verse that relates to this, yu
know:
Matthew Matt 7:19-20: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is
hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall
know them.
Yes, "by their fruits ye shall know them" -- and that is as true today
as it was in Jesus' day. Amen.
cat yronwode
Mark Bolks
> inlvxveritas wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
That certainly is true, Cat. It would be a good one to apply to your
Satanic husband who has kept an obviously false and malicious,
defamatory website up on his site. Yes, the one you keep referring to
as the rabidly hateful anti-Griffin one. Be sure to check if you live
in a glass house before throwing stones, my dear.
As for Mr. Christie and his fruit, they're called sour grapes.
There were a total of 4 people who left from the Alpha et Omega and
their temples have been replaced by others. The Order has gotten along
better without the "trees with rotten fruit" and the formers'
manipulative agendas and the new temples in the U.S.A., Canada, and
the U.K. are all, from my personal knowledge, doing quite well, thank
you. Sorry to disappoint those with spiteful agendas. To further set
the record straight, I am a member of an active Mid-Western, U.S.
temple and am not the presiding Hierophant of a temple in Canada as
was stated by some anonymous e-mailer in one of your "scholarly"
reports.
Good night and LVX
Mark Bolks
susanwhi...@yahoo.com
> was not personally involved in those communications,
> but it sure leads me to wonder if indeed you were
> not alone in your attempts to dissolve our order. Why
> would you request the ZAM curriculum when you had
> already" resigned without prejudice" and why on earth
> would you even care to know about > the legal strategies
> moving forward in an order you were no longer a
> member of ??? I think it is more than just a coincidence.
Obviously, this is more than a coincidence. This coroberates
Chic's having bragged about sabotaging Griffin's
temples, about having given Tommy Westlund a trademark
lisence, and about the three spies including Christie. The rumor
about Griffin's temples leaving obviously comes from Chic as
well, as this is what he said was going to happen when Christie
and the others left. I remain anonymous as otherwise I obviously
would be expelled by Chic. I am glad that my information has
been coroberated by someone who knew Christie, and putting his
silly anonymity argument back into perspective.
Christie was clearly trying to gather information for Chic
on his way our the door. I sincerely hope, Mr. Christie, that
at least you got your 30 pieces of silver.
Tom
"Soror M.D.L.L." <isi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180844551.9...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Mark,
>
> You have quite a bit of nerve to come out to alt.magick and pose your
> self-aggrandizement theories to the public.
As do we all. There is a certain amount of controversy over just what
comprises "self-aggrandizement", of course.
> As someone who is very
> disappointed by your twisted misinformation with regards to the HOGD/
> A&O, and exposed to your unethical behaviors, experienced first hand,
> I am compelled to point out some facts for the sake of clarification.
You have quite a bit of nerve to come out to alt.magick and pose your
self-aggrandizement theories to the public.
> 2) Since your posting here has really proven to be false and accusing
> the HOGD/A&O for mistreating you, which I believe to be false,
Well, there you go. It's not uncommon for people who believe something to
think it has been proved. Since proof is simply whatever it takes to
convince you, what you think has been proved will depend on what you choose
to believe.
> 3) You were expelled from the HOGD/A&O for the reason that you
> inappropriately published personal information about HOGD/A&O members
> publicly.
I haven't been following the programme booklet closely enough. Was that the
expulsion that happened three months after the guy had resigned?
> 4) Very imperative here also is the fact that your claims to the HOGD/
> A&O temples in Canada and the Mid-West USA, no longer existing, is
> wholly a false lie.
As opposed to a wholly true lie?
> I hate to disappoint you Mark, but those temples still exist today,
> just without you !
You've been talking about proof. Can you prove that these temples exist
today?
fairp...@yahoo.com
> You have bee talking about proof.
> Can you prove that these temples exist
> today?
Well, let's see. We have, on the one hand, the word of two real
people
who are actual temple members posting under their own names; "Mark
Bolks"
and "Leigh-Ann Grace Bachman," and on the other hand, unsubstantiated
rumors being spread by "anonymous propaganda trolls;" "Tom" and
"Teletourgos."
I guess more appropriate questions would be:
1, Can anyone prove that trolls "Tom" and "Teletourgos" really exist?
(and are not mere propaganda socks?)
2. Assuming that they do exist, who are they and on what basis should
they be given any credibility whatsoever in this matter?
The burden of proof in this case clearly lies on the
baseless-rumor-mongering-anonymous-trolls and
sock puppets, rather than the other way around.
By the way, where is the proof to back up the BS
lineage claims of Babwahsing's SIRA and Cicero's
Golden Dawn? Could you please provide proof of
that "Tom" and "Teletourgos" and quit trying
to change the subject and divert attention
by spreading silly rumors about temples?
Meltdarok
> Anonymous Troll "Tom" wrote:
>
>> You have bee talking about proof.
>> Can you prove that these temples exist
>> today?
>
> Well, let's see. We have, on the one hand, the word of two real
> people
> who are actual temple members posting under their own names; "Mark
> Bolks"
> and "Leigh-Ann Grace Bachman," and on the other hand, unsubstantiated
> rumors being spread by "anonymous propaganda trolls;" "Tom" and
> "Teletourgos."
> I guess more appropriate questions would be:
Where are the temples located?
What are the addresses of said temples?
How come you don't post a Gooogle map of them?
>
--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
inlvxveritas
diatribe...especially after all your denial of not wanting anything to
do with order politics. It saddens me actually to see you drawn in.
Speaking of order politics, if I may refresh your memory, back in
December 2005, you emailed your tutor, who happened to be my wife, to
help you out because no one in administration was listening to you. You
were receiving politically directed instructions in email from Hevia for
your fiance which you wanted nothing to do with. You contacted him
asking him to stop and he didn't. You contacted Griffin to ask Hevia to
stop and nothing changed. Then you emailed my wife, she took your
plight to heart, and actually championed your cause. Here is the email
she sent on your behalf (apologies for the length):
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Concerns from a student (and from me)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:59:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Soror A.O.T.
To: ad...@golden-dawn.com, "Jorge Hevia, III"
<VHFrat...@Golden-Dawn.Com>, Frater LKA <vhfra...@golden-dawn.com>
Namaste!
I am writing this email to express my concern to the three Chiefs of the
HOGD concerning a situation reported to me by one of my students. I am
including her email and my response to her. I also realize that this
message is long, but I beg you to take the time to read it all (both my
message and the original from Soror M.D.L.L.) and give due consideration
to all that is included.
Basically, Soror M.D.L.L. is reporting that she is receiving, at her
personal email account (isi...@yahoo.com), communications from V.H.
Frater D.e.D.I. that are meant for her live-in boyfriend, Frater L.e.S.
She is unsure why her personal email address is being used to get
messages to him, but she has obviously made attempts to get the
situation resolved without results. I would like to impress upon you the
inconvenience this is causing and, assuming such communications might be
confidential when from one of our Chiefs, the fact that the messages are
being sent to an incorrect address could well post a "'security"
problem. This situation of not using Frater L.e.S.'s official email
address for such communications needs to be addressed immediately.
In addition, I would like to comment that I see several other problems
with this basic situation. I am curious that V.H. Frater D.e.D.I. is
sending posts to a member so that they can be posted on his behalf, but
without proper attribution to him. In addition, the message I have
attached here seems to indicate that neither Frater L.e.S. nor Soror
M.D.L.L. were really made aware of the serious consequences of Frater
L.e.S. taking on this task. If it only affected them, I would not be so
concerned. As they are both members of HOGD, I can assume they will have
some modicum of protection, at least with their daily banishings.
However, I think if you have seen her posts on the HOGD public forum,
you will realize that not only is she very serious in her study of
magic, but she appears to be quite gifted in intuition and psychic
ability. My own experience is that this ability is that it is often
passed from mother to child and most specifically to female children. I
think it's obvious from the effects of the Thanksgiving magical attacks,
that Soror M.D.L.L.'s daughter took the brunt of that attack. As a
parent and just as an observer, this is atrocious--not only the attack
but the fact that we, as an Order, created the environment that allowed
it to happen at all! I can understand her concern for the safety of her
child. I have the same concerns with my own children! I believe it would
have been more prudent to give them both adequate warning of what Frater
L.e.S.'s activities and posts, as "Paralda" would have on their own
safety. Only with this information could Frater L.e.S. have made a truly
informed decision. And saying no to taking on such a role would not have
reflected badly, in my opinion, on his dedication to our Order.
I realize no one can "go back" and offer this information or choice
(although perhaps Frater L.e.S. could be asked if he would like to
reconsider). However, it seems to me that in the future, it could become
a requirement before putting an unsuspecting order member in this kind
of situation and danger. I dearly hope you will all consider this.
Last, I have to say that I'm surprised that V.H. Frater D.e.D.I. is
sending such messages to Frater L.e.S. in the first place. I guess I
would have expected such messages to come from G.H. Frater L.E.S. or
that copies of such requests would have been sent to the other two
Chiefs. I think you all know my opinion on it being expected to defend
our Order from unwarranted attack and outright lies. However, I
personally object to our using the same tactics as Zink and his cronies.
I don't subscribe to alt.magic or the magical working group, but even on
our own forum, I have seen evidence that people had some respect for
HOGD as not playing that game with the same twisted rules. I believe it
is in our Order's best interests to take the high road on all of these
things. If we must defend ourselves, I would prefer to see the facts
presented without any excess information--such as supposing who is
behind the attacks or why they happen or any other such speculation. No
matter how convinced I am of the truth of such conclusions, including
them in emails on those forums only allows new avenues of attack and
accusation. I really feel we will win, in the end, by taking the high
road. That is, I think we should defend with facts and leave it at that.
I also believe we should follow the same policy on the contents of any
"official statements" that go on our web site.
With all that being said, I apologize for the rant, but not for the
content. This is the way I honestly feel about various occurrences over
the past few months. I hope you will consider what I've said here, not
as personal attacks on anyone in the Order, but as my attempt to make
you all think about where we are going and what we, as HOGD, the Order,
is going. We cannot control the actions of Zink or Max or anyone else
who "has it in" for us. But we can control our responses. And I truly
believe there are ways of defending ourselves without adding fuel to the
battle between Golden Dawn orders. And not only do I think we can do
that, and that we need to do that, but that people out there will see
that we are taking that "high road" and think better of us for it.
Meanwhile, if there are any techniques you can recommend--things that a
member of the 2=9 or 1=10 grade and below would not normally have
access to--that would help protect innocent family members from Zink' s
attacks, I would be very grateful for you to provide that information. I
will be happy to pass it on to Soror M.D.L.L., as well as to use it to
protect my own family.
I thank you for "listening." I will be happy to discuss this or answer
any questions you may have.
Peace and LVX,
Soror A.O.T.
--------------------
And do you remember how you were rewarded?
You were assigned a new tutor...you know...the guy that you had the
complaint about in the first place.
That's called punishing a whistleblower...and this was the email I sent
when I found out:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Did I hear you right?
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 02:10:53 -0600
From: V.H. Frater L.K.A. <VHFra...@golden-dawn.com>
To: Golden Dawn Admin <ad...@golden-dawn.com>
Did you say you reassigned MDLL to DeDI?!?
John...I do not want to get into it because of the Christmas
spirit...but if A.O.T. finds out about this, you will have a resignation
on your hands. I can only hope that MDLL won't resign when she finds out.
And let me make this very clear...this is NOT Mark Bolks' fault. He is
being used...and you are being mislead.
=LKA=
-------------------
Yes...at the time, Griffin was blaming the whole situation on
Mark...well, that is after he was blaming it on you and your
relationship with Mark.
I said it then, and I'll say it now...I find it ethically egregious to
for order chiefs to use their Outer Order members as political pawns,
regardless of whether they are willing participants or not. That
happened to me in HOMSI, and I would not wish that on anyone else.
But hey...as they say...no good deed goes unpunished, eh?
Ah well...I will address your points briefly.
1) If giving you the facts and telling you specifically on numerous
occasions to decide for yourself is schismatic, then I am guilty. Then
again, over the past 18 months, your focus in your spiritual life has
gone from simply doing the work and steering clear of politics to
frequenting alt.magick, diving head first into political discourse, and
calling people names. How's that spiritual direction workin' for ya'?
2) See below.
3) Your fiance was using over half a dozen anonymous aliases on a Yahoo
forum that prohibited such behavior and he got busted. So sorry. His
name he made public long before that. And frankly, no matter how you or
any of the Griffinites try to spin it, I *resigned* a full three months
beforehand. I realize a make-believe expulsion in retaliation for
whistleblowing makes certain people feel better about themselves, but
that doesn't mean the truth should have to bow to the Griffinite
collective subjective reality.
4) Au contraire. At Fall Equinox 2005, Equinox greetings were sent to
Seshat Temple in the Midwest, Serquet in Toronto, Neith in Georgia,
Thoth in Sweden, Isis elsewhere in Europe, Horus in Texas, Anubis in the
UK, and Ra in Germany (note no Ahathoor). (Bear in mind this was
already down from over two dozen when I joined in 2002.) Before my
resignation, Horus and Anubis collapsed, and after my resignation,
Seshat, Neith, and Serquet collapsed. Griffin's story that Serquet
moved to Ottawa was their attempt at damage control, as there is one or
two good people there doing little else than personal work. This is not
assumption, it is fact. I was friends with the people from the four
North American temples and the one in the UK, so I know first-hand. I
also know first-hand from some that initiation referrals are currently
not being answered, and the only communication they ever got from admin
is when it was time to pay their renewal fees. Needless to say, they
opted not to renew. The reason why the HOGD/A+O is not providing
initiation referrals to their members is a question I leave to the reader.
2) I find it very interesting that you've made this accusation,
especially after the several times assuring my wife and me that you
always check your sources as to the validity of any claim. As you have
not done that to me, I can only conclude that was a misstatement.
Anyways, it's neither here nor there, but Griffin promised me the ZAM
materials over a month before my resignation. I followed up twice the
two weeks following, that's all. It was impossible for me to request
the ZAM materials the same day I resigned because Griffin was away on
business then and for about two weeks afterwards. Following, please
find my resignation letter and the responses afterward, proving my
claim, as my resignation was tendered Jan 9, and his first response was
Jan 21:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Change is good...
From: V.H.Frater L.K.A.
Date: 1/9/2006 4:09 PM
To: Golden Dawn Admin
Cc: V.H.Frater D.e.D.I.
Avete et GH Frater...
Every New Year, I take the time to review the year past as regards our
Order. Every year, I have thanked you deeply, and said "you have my
sword". In 2005, you invited me into the Second Order, and gave me the
ineffable experience of being raised to the sublime degree of 5=6
Adeptus Minor at Temple Ahathoor in Paris. In the Vault of the Adepti,
GH Frater DLS connected me with the ages and ages of Rosicrucians which
have come before us. You also selected me for Cancellarius Ordinis at
last Equinox. It was another dream come true...and I cannot thank you
enough for all of this..
Since then, however, there has been a marked shift in the current and
the proceedings of the Outer, both within and without. It is said that
life is 10% of what happens to you and 90% of what you make of it. So,
from my perspective, it has not so much been about the lawsuit itself,
than it has been about how we have been conducting ourselves because of
the lawsuit.
For me, my happiness in this Order has never been about a fully secret
Second Order curriculum or the promise of the connection to an exalted
Third Order, but simply the fact that I could trust my Chief and his
Adepti to, in the end, simply do the right thing. However, it seems
recently that our moral compass has been realigned in such a manner that
the important thing to do is whatever is necessary (the ends justify the
means) and deny everything so that we are not culpable in a court of
law. But we seem to have forgotten that we individually know what we
have done...and, most important of all, the Lord of the Universe knows
what we have done. And, when all is said and done, we are unavoidably
accountable to ourselves and to Him. The law has no bearing upon our
spiritual lives, yet our Order has realigned our moral compass to it.
Because of this, our course as an Order has been re-plotted. Our focus
should always be to assist our initiates to grow spiritually so that
they may purify and exalt their Spiritual Natures, so that, with the
Divine Aid, they may at length attain to be More Than Human, and thus
gradually raise and unite themselves to their Higher and Divine
Geniuses. Our focus is no longer on this but on a total victory in a
mundane lawsuit, regardless of the collateral damage, within our Order,
or within the greater Golden Dawn community. The collateral damage has
even spilled into Freemasonry and the Societatis Rosicruciana.
Innocents are being harmed...including innocents who, in trusting us
implicitly, are fighting our battles for us.
My question to you, Greatly Honored Frater, is simply this: What good
is a spiritual organization that gains the world but loses its soul?
It would break my heart to see you follow the lawsuit through to full
term and judgment, subsequently win everything you ever wished for, do a
victory dance, then turn around to celebrate with your Order, and find
nothing but an empty shell behind you.
Greatly Honored Frater, having quarrel with the people who sue you,
attack you, and slander you is understandable. But, in the end, this
has nothing to do with who those people are and what those people do.
This has to with the kind of people WE ARE and what WE DO. We are
supposed to be Rosicrucians, and we should be conducting ourselves as
Rosicrucians. And, if I may be blunt, if a 7=4 Adeptus Exemptus in our
Order cannot invoke a morsel of lovingkindness of Chesed to his enemies
as well as his friends, then the Order has a major flaw on its hands.
Because of this, as the current of this Order has markedly changed, I
feel not so much that I am leaving the Order, but that the Order has
left me...and thus I have no choice but to gather all the gifts you have
bestowed upon me and offer them up as a Sacrifice to the Lord of the
Universe. This year, I offer my apolologies, as I must keep my sword so
that I may fall upon it. Therefore, I hereby tender my resignation from
the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn effective immediately, as the
Order is now currently incompatible with my civil and moral duties.
This decision is strictly and singularly my own, and only after much
contemplation, meditation and divination.
I still consider you my good friend. In truth, I would not be saying
all of this and making such an effort unless I cared about you so much.
I still wish to maintain warm and fraternal relations with you. I
also wish the same with GH Frater DLS and GH Frater IOP, and I intend to
go forward and conduct myself as such. I hope we will still get the
chance to meet someday and practice the Magic of Light together. Until
then, I regret to say that we must part ways.
I wish you Peace, brother...and I bid you to remember that the true mark
of a Rosicrucian is Love.
Fraternally in LVX,
V.H. Frater L.K.A.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
From: David J. Griffin
Date: 1/21/2006 9:00 AM
To: Mark Christie
Mark,
We need to speak in order to debrief you. You shold transfer all
archives to me and have a responsibility to tie up numerous loose ends.
Let me know when it would be convenient for me to phone you.
John
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Re:
From: David J Griffin
Date: 1/23/2006 5:46 AM
To: V.H.Frater I.L.V.
CC: Jorge Hevia Esq III
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, V.H. Frater I.L.V. wrote:
> John,
>
> How kind of you to write me...two weeks later.
>
> As the HOGD is your order, as has always been stated as such, let me
make it clear that if there are loose ends in your order, they are your
loose ends and therefore your responsibility. Surely they must not
have been urgent as they have been dangling for two weeks now.
Actually, there are some rather urgent things. Unfortunately, you timed
your resignation when I was out of town. Sorry that my schedule was not
more convenient for your resignation. Let us hope that you will show
more responsibility now.
>
> As far as archives are concerned, I cannot think offhand of anything
that I may have that you do not. If you can tell me what specific
archives you are looking for, I will do my best to help.
>
> If you wish to call, you know my number, and you can figure out the
polite times to call. Calling me at work is not considerate and
therefore not an option.
>
> -Mark
>
>
> David J Griffin wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>> We need to speak in order to debrief you. You shold transfer all
archives to me and have a responsibility to tie up numerous loose
ends. Let me know when it would be convenient for me to phone you.
>> John
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Re:
From: David J Griffin
Date: 1/23/2006 6:07 AM
To: V.H.Frater I.L.V .
Dear Mark (former Frater ILV/LKA),
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, V.H. Frater I.L.V. wrote:
> John,
>
> How kind of you to write me...two weeks later.
>
> As the HOGD is your order, as has always been stated as such, let me
make it clear that if there are loose ends in your order, they are your
loose ends and therefore your responsibility. Surely they must not
have been urgent as they have been dangling for two weeks now.
Once again, I must apologize that my travel schedule was not more
convenient for your schismatic activity.
>
> As far as archives are concerned, I cannot think offhand of anything
that I may have that you do not. If you can tell me what specific
archives you are looking for, I will do my best to help.
Recent transcripts, full information regarding our chat, and status
report regarding the Easy CGI project would be a good place to start.
>
> If you wish to call, you know my number, and you can figure out the
polite times to call. Calling me at work is not considerate and
therefore not an option.
I have no desire to speak with Mary nor to be put off by her due to
your erratic sleeping schedule. Please provide me with a couple of good
times for me to phone.
I am quite disappointed with you Mark. I advanced you to 5=6 despite
certain reservations. Both you and Nitatis have greatly disappointed
me. Do not think for a moment that I do not know what the two of you
have been up to. I have spoken with both Robert and Jean-Pascal and
they are equally disappointed with you.
John
--------------------
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:21 AM, V.H. Frater I.L.V. wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> I know you must be hurting. You probably feel horribly betrayed. I
understand. I probably would feel the same way if our roles were reversed.
>
> I never intended for this to happen. I tried voicing my concerns
for weeks...and even took the day off for the conference call you felt
was so important but did not show up for. I then spoke to the other
Chief one-on-one and, based on that conversation, made my decision to
leave. I repeat, my decision was my own and no one else's. Little did
I know that others were watching, and I was unwittingly acting as a
"canary in a coal mine" for them. This too was not my intention...but
it happened just the same...
>
> But is this really about getting to the truth? After all, you had
so many reservations regarding my advancement to 5=6 that three months
later you decided to install me as Cancellarius Ordinis...
>
> Is it even really about debriefing...or loose ends...or transcripts...?
>
> Or is it about finding a scapegoat for your woes and the woes of
your order?
>
> I am continually learning that the 5=6 grade is all about being
nailed to the cross...so why don't we just cut to the quick here? It
seems as if my sacrifice of the gifts you bestowed upon me was
insufficient for you...so here's some wood...here's some nails...have at.
>
> You always said that you are an emotional person and you like to
express your emotions...that's just the way you are. So, regardless of
the fact that you have already chosen me as such, I'm giving you the
invitation...You have your scapegoat...do as you will.
>
> -Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: The mess you left behind
From: David J Griffin
Date: 1/24/2006 8:24 AM
To: V.H.Frater I.L.V .
Cc: Jorge Hevia Esq III
Believe it or not, I am not interested in finding scapegoats, but
rather only in cleaning up the mess that you left behind. If YOU need a
scapegoat, I suggest you look in your own bedroom. There are many
people in the world who disguise power ambition and manipulation
beneath the appearance of social veneer and feigned moral virtue. For
such hypocrites, I have only the greatest disdain. Whether you, Vic, or
your wife is primarily responsible for the treachery and schismatic
behavior surrounding your departure is not important. All that matters
now is that you finally show backbone and integrity and clean up your
own mess.
The primary lesson of the 5=6 grade is humility and its vice is
arrogance. Whether the Minor Adept succumbs to his own arrogance or
allows himself to be manipulated by the arrogance of others is of
little consequence. The sad truth is that, as things now stand, your
initiatic development will never progress beyond what is published in
Regardie's book. What a pity. You showed promise. Whether you were
directly responsible or merely used and manipulated by others is of
little consequence. In the end, the result is the same and you are the
one who pays the price. Sad, yes, but not in the way that the
manipulators and the schismatics would like to have seen. Recent events
have merely caused our order to implement changes more quickly that
were secretly planned long term anyway...changes that I rightfully
concealed from all concerned.
Your claim that you tried voicing concerns to me for weeks is
disingenuous. I made several attempts to give you a voice. That order
business does not always provide timing convenient for you is a fact of
life you never learned to deal with. Wallow in self-pity and falsely
portray me as uncaring if you like. Not even you truly believe that
nonsense. I do, however, have other duties of which you have no
awareness, trials of which you can only dream, and spiritual hurdles
which make the examinations of the GD look like kindergarten. You
mistake "unattachment" for "disinterest" and your own impatience for
lack of devotion from me.
Regards,
John
--------------------
On Jan 25, 2006, at 7:54 AM, V.H. Frater I.L.V. wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> I was wrong. You weren't looking for a scapegoat. You were looking
for three scapegoats.
>
> Very well then. I hope writing that last email made you feel a
whole lot better.
>
> Goodbye, brother. I wish you peace.
> -Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: The mess you left behind
From: David J Griffin
Date: 1/25/2006 2:11 AM
To: V.H.Frater I.L.V.
Mark,
You are being less than honest. All my your letter required was an
answer to the effect that,
"I will be available at such and such a time to turn over the chat-
room, and any archival documents that you may have; or to answer any
quick routine administrative questions that you may have as a result of
my abrupt departure."
How about a little responsibility instead of platitudes, etc?
John
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: The mess you left behind
From: Jorge Hevia
Date: 1/25/2006 7:28 AM
To: David J Griffin, V.H.Frater I.L.V.
Dear Mark,
Why do you not simply state, "I do not have the integrity, nor the
professionalism, to spend half an hour turning over basic information on
the chat-room, documents in my possession, etc., which I should have
anticipated in light of my abrupt departure"?
Jorge
--------------------
CC: "VH Frater DeDI"
From: "Golden Dawn Admin"
Subject:
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:03:37 +0100
To: "Mark Christie"
Mark
For the record, I still expect you to show a minimum of
responsibility in respect of the office which you held in our order.
Please put the platitudes aside and finally provide a time when you
will be available to turn over chat-room details, and any archival
documents that you may have; to answer any quick routine
administrative questions that you may have as a result of your abrupt
departure, etc.
You not having done so yet is quickly changing my opinion of you. To
leave is honorable. To leave irresponsibly under the pretense of
honor is disingenuous and insulting of the office you once held.
John
--------------------
Lastly, I'm happy to take responsibility for my actions and wear my faux
expulsion from Griffin's org as a badge of honor. It is an emblem of
their distinct pattern of behavior of punishing whistleblowers over the
years. How very ironic that the one who was being punished in December
2005 is now the one doing the punishing in June 2007.
But that's OK...you've unwittingly done me a favor. When I heard my
name was mentioned yet again on alt.magick a few days ago, I realized
that I would not be left alone no matter how quiet I was. Now your post
has opened the door for me to be an open book on everything that went on
in Griffin's org during my time there. So thank you very much!
~ILV~
Mark Bolks
> > inappropriately published personal information about HOGD/A&O members
> > publicly.
>
> I haven't been following the programme booklet closely enough. Was that the
> expulsion that happened three months after the guy had resigned?
This is hopefully the last time I have to communicate with trolls on
alt.magick to set the record straight once again. Mr. Christie
"resigned without prejudice". This indicated that he had left the
Order for personal reasons of his own and the Order had no problem
with him exercising his free will in doing so. Our Order is not a cult
in the sense of forcing everyone to stay and subscribe to the exact
same philosophies of Order governance, this is why this would have
been permitted. He was not expelled for viewing things differently
than the Chiefs, that would be ridiculous. His status changed to
"expelled with prejudice" after he had decided, during his resignation
period, as the Soror clearly elucidated, to publicly bash a former
student of his and reveal information about a member of the Alpha et
Omega that that member wished to keep private. In other words, his
behavior was far from guided by "Rosicrucian ethics" or fraternal
towards the HOGD member in publiclly harrassing them, hence why his
status changed from "resigned without prejudice" to "expelled with
prejudice" three months later due to his bizarre and hostile behavior.
In other words, he could never return to the Order if he wanted to.
Whether he wanted to or wants to return to our Order or not is
irrelevent. I certainly wouldn't reward or license such behavior. The
only license I would give it is the license to depart!
So the sarcastic line of "I quit so you can't fire me" is puerile and
disingenuous once you get the facts staight.
LVX,
Mark B.
Trevor Walker
information about our temples. Due to persistent, deliberate
misinformation being spread on alt.magick and enshrined in Ms.
Yronwode's project, we made a limited exception to this policy to
set
the record straight. Let it suffice to say that we have active
temples throughout Europe and North America, including in the UK as
well as in the USA. I might also add that Ms. Yronwode appears to
have largely ignored information provided by our order and its
active
members, preferring that provided by anonymous trolls instead. The
notion that the HOGD/A+O has any obligation whatsoever to prove the
existence or location of any of our temples is patently absurd.
H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
Hierophant.
Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
London, U.K.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
The Outer Order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
On Jun 3, 7:18 pm, Meltdarok <meltda...@aol.com> wrote:
Meltdarok
> As a general matter of policy, the HOGD/A+O does not publicly reveal
> information about our temples. Due to persistent, deliberate
> misinformation being spread on alt.magick and enshrined in Ms.
> Yronwode's project, we made a limited exception to this policy to
> set
> the record straight. Let it suffice to say that we have active
> temples throughout Europe and North America, including in the UK as
> well as in the USA.
You can say anything you bloody well want to say.
> I might also add that Ms. Yronwode appears to
> have largely ignored information provided by our order and its
> active
> members, preferring that provided by anonymous trolls instead. The
> notion that the HOGD/A+O has any obligation whatsoever to prove the
> existence or location of any of our temples is patently absurd.
>
"Obligation"?
Can you actually read what you typed to me?
> H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
> Hierophant.
> Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
> London, U.K.
> Hermetic Order of the Golden DawnŽ,
> The Outer Order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et OmegaŽ.
>
>
> On Jun 3, 7:18 pm, Meltdarok <meltda...@aol.com> wrote:
>> fairpla...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Anonymous Troll "Tom" wrote:
>>>> You have bee talking about proof.
>>>> Can you prove that these temples exist
>>>> today?
>>> Well, let's see. We have, on the one hand, the word of two real
>>> people
>>> who are actual temple members posting under their own names; "Mark
>>> Bolks"
>>> and "Leigh-Ann Grace Bachman," and on the other hand, unsubstantiated
>>> rumors being spread by "anonymous propaganda trolls;" "Tom" and
>>> "Teletourgos."
>>> I guess more appropriate questions would be:
>> Where are the temples located?
>> What are the addresses of said temples?
>> How come you don't post a Gooogle map of them?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> meltdarokhttp://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
>
>
--
meltdarok, 6.02*10^23=1
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
Soror M.D.L.L.
Mark,
It is obvious that you are trying to hurt me yet again, by publishing
personal information about my family. You have indeed succeeded in
hurting me by dragging my family into the politics,that you had always
claimed yourself, at least on the surface, to abhor, via publishing an
e-mail regarding confidential concerns between an HOGD/ A&O student
(myself ) and my former tutor, your wife, Mary Christie. What is next
on your list, publishing my private journals sent to Mary while she
was my tutor ?
Soror M.D.L.L.
aka. Leigh-Ann Grace-Bachman
On Jun 3, 3:31 pm, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> Ahh, Leigh-Ann...how intriguing to find you here spewing
> diatribe...especially after all your denial of not wanting anything to
> do with order politics. It saddens me actually to see you drawn in.
>
> Speaking of order politics, if I may refresh your memory, back in
> December 2005, you emailed your tutor, who happened to be my wife, to
> help you out because no one in administration was listening to you. You
> were receiving politically directed instructions in email from Hevia for
> your fiance which you wanted nothing to do with. You contacted him
> asking him to stop and he didn't. You contacted Griffin to ask Hevia to
> stop and nothing changed. Then you emailed my wife, she took your
> plight to heart, and actually championed your cause. Here is the email
> she sent on your behalf (apologies for the length):
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Concerns from a student (and from me)
> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:59:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Soror A.O.T.
> To: a...@golden-dawn.com, "Jorge Hevia, III"
>
> <VHFraterD...@Golden-Dawn.Com>, Frater LKA <vhfrater...@golden-dawn.com>
>
> Namaste!
>
> I am writing this email to express my concern to the three Chiefs of the
> HOGD concerning a situation reported to me by one of my students. I am
> including her email and my response to her. I also realize that this
> message is long, but I beg you to take the time to read it all (both my
> message and the original from Soror M.D.L.L.) and give due consideration
> to all that is included.
>
> Basically, Soror M.D.L.L. is reporting that she is receiving, at her
> personal email account (isin...@yahoo.com), communications from V.H.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Tom
<fairp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180893756....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Anonymous Troll "Tom" wrote:
>
>> You have bee talking about proof.
>> Can you prove that these temples exist
>> today?
>
> Well, let's see. We have, on the one hand, the word of two real
> people
> who are actual temple members posting under their own names; "Mark
> Bolks"
> and "Leigh-Ann Grace Bachman," and on the other hand, unsubstantiated
> rumors being spread by "anonymous propaganda trolls;" "Tom" and
> "Teletourgos."
Can you cite any unsubstantiated rumors I've been spreading, or are you just
lumping everybody who hasn't sided with you as someone who has sided with
your enemies? It seems more than a little simplistic to see things that
way.
> I guess more appropriate questions would be:
> 1, Can anyone prove that trolls "Tom" and "Teletourgos" really exist?
> (and are not mere propaganda socks?)
Even "propagandas socks" exist, bubby. Perhaps you'd prefer to consider me
a figment of your imagination. In fact, most of what you perceive of me is
exactly that, given that what you perceive is significantly adulterated with
your fantasies.
So, if you insist on arguing with figments of your own imagination, feel
free, but most folks think that having continual public arguments with your
own fantasies is a symptom of a serious mental illness. So, either you're
crazy or I do exist. It's your call.
> 2. Assuming that they do exist, who are they and on what basis should
> they be given any credibility whatsoever in this matter?
I don't need any credibility to ask questions. So I'll repeat the question.
Can you prove that these temples do exist today?
> The burden of proof in this case clearly lies on the
> baseless-rumor-mongering-anonymous-trolls and
> sock puppets, rather than the other way around.
The burden of proof is upon the claimant, in this case Leigh-Ann
Grace-Bachman, who claims "Very imperative here also is the fact that your
claims to the HOGD/A&O temples in Canada and the Mid-West USA, no longer
existing, is wholly a false lie. I hate to disappoint you Mark, but those
temples still exist today, just without you!"
Now, Mark says they don't exist and Leigh-Ann says they do. Who can prove
their assertions and who cannot?
> By the way, where is the proof to back up the BS
> lineage claims of Babwahsing's SIRA and Cicero's
> Golden Dawn? Could you please provide proof of
> that "Tom" and "Teletourgos" and quit trying
> to change the subject and divert attention
> by spreading silly rumors about temples?
I made no such claim. I feel no need to provide evidence for a claim that I
didn't make. I don't know any of these people. I'm just reading Usenet
posts and commenting on the silliness of them.
I find it quite amusing to watch all these folks spit and snarl at each
other in such an infantile fashion, especially considering that they are
each trying to claim they are repositories of ancient and puissant secret
knowledge which leads to miraculous magical powers and ultimate spiritual
insights.
If there was ever any need to determine if someone actually had such
knowledge, it would be immediately obvious to the sincere seeker that these
bozos do not.
Tom
"Mark Bolks" <solinv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180899152.6...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> > 3) You were expelled from the HOGD/A&O for the reason that you
>> > inappropriately published personal information about HOGD/A&O members
>> > publicly.
>>
>> I haven't been following the programme booklet closely enough. Was that
>> the
>> expulsion that happened three months after the guy had resigned?
>
> This is hopefully the last time I have to communicate with trolls on
> alt.magick to set the record straight once again. Mr. Christie
> "resigned without prejudice". This indicated that he had left the
> Order for personal reasons of his own and the Order had no problem
> with him exercising his free will in doing so.
So it *is* that expulsion.
Do you know how silly, petulant, and impotent it looks for an employer, for
example, to try to fire someone who voluntarily resigned his job months
earlier? In other words, do you realize how silly, petulant, and impotent
*you* look for trying to expel someone who voluntarily resigned months
earlier?
> He was not expelled for viewing things differently
> than the Chiefs, that would be ridiculous.
But not unheard of.
> His status changed to
> "expelled with prejudice" after he had decided, during his resignation
> period, as the Soror clearly elucidated, to publicly bash a former
> student of his and reveal information about a member of the Alpha et
> Omega that that member wished to keep private.
If he were still a member and did this, I could see the justification. But
he was not, so it was nothing more than a bit of spite.
> In other words, his
> behavior was far from guided by "Rosicrucian ethics" or fraternal
> towards the HOGD member in publiclly harrassing them, hence why his
> status changed from "resigned without prejudice" to "expelled with
> prejudice" three months later due to his bizarre and hostile behavior.
> In other words, he could never return to the Order if he wanted to.
> Whether he wanted to or wants to return to our Order or not is
> irrelevent.\
Well, it might be justifiable if that expulsion were simply a matter of
internal bookkeeping and not some sort of effort to tarnish his reputation
(such as it is). However, the fact that you bruited this "expulsion" about
in order to retaliate against the said Mr. Christie invites a reasonable
suspicion that it was merely impotent spitefulness that prompted it.
> So the sarcastic line of "I quit so you can't fire me" is puerile and
> disingenuous once you get the facts staight.
So is "I'm firing you even though you quit three months ago!"
Tom
"Trevor Walker" <HFrat...@Yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180900150.0...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> As a general matter of policy, the HOGD/A+O does not publicly reveal
> information about our temples. Due to persistent, deliberate
> misinformation being spread on alt.magick and enshrined in Ms.
> Yronwode's project, we made a limited exception to this policy to
> set the record straight. Let it suffice to say that we have active
> temples throughout Europe and North America, including in the UK as
> well as in the USA. I might also add that Ms. Yronwode appears to
> have largely ignored information provided by our order and its
> active members, preferring that provided by anonymous trolls instead.
> The notion that the HOGD/A+O has any obligation whatsoever to prove
> the existence or location of any of our temples is patently absurd.
Occultists routinely refuse to provide substantive evidence for virtually
any of their claims. It's one reason why hardly anyone considers them
credible.
Mark Bolks
> I find it quite amusing to watch all these folks spit and snarl at each
> other in such an infantile fashion,
Which is why you are a sadistic troll trying to instigate more of this
for your sick pleasure. You will have no more such luck and I refuse
to engage myself in your hypocritical condemnation of "spitting and
snarling" while you spit and snarl away. If your idea of enlightenment
is getting your jollies off of this than alt.magick is definately the
right magickal organization for you. See ya!
Enjoy!
Mark B.
alectrum
you have long ears, long tales and memories for your long dead woes,
and I can never tell who is a rabbit or a mole,
because you're such a funny bunch of bunnies - what happened to your
soul?
Tom
> Anonymous "Tom" wrote this:
>> I find it quite amusing to watch all these folks spit and snarl at each
>> other in such an infantile fashion,
>
>
> Which is why you are a sadistic troll trying to instigate more of this
> for your sick pleasure.
What instigation? I'm just providing the laugh track.
> You will have no more such luck and I refuse
> to engage myself in your hypocritical condemnation of "spitting and
> snarling" while you spit and snarl away. If your idea of enlightenment
> is getting your jollies off of this than alt.magick is definately the
> right magickal organization for you. See ya!
Very good. That's one less of you. Perhaps others will realize what folly
it is to air your dirty laundry in this newsgroup. Probably not, though.
teletourgos
I will say little about these interesting pieces of information, but
it is another piece of the jigsaw, which goes to support what many,
including myself, had surmised already.
I am sure SAR Draconis, who posted similarly interesting
correspondence about Mike Rest*vo's problems with communicating with
one of his Orders some years ago, will agree with me that while this
sort of thing does break Order ethics, it is nonetheless interesting
for the historian.
Jean
catherine yronwode
Confusing siva with me will get you nowwhere, but it does raise a few
flags of interest.
In attempting to tie siva to me, you and a few ANON posters from your
order obviously use the term "Satanist husband" as a word of
condemnation to tar me by association, the way someone with an axe to
grind who assumed himself to be among friends sharing a similar
belief-set might say, "you and your right-wing fundamentalist wife" or
"you and your Catholic mother."
What is *your* religion?
Do you personally have something against Satanism as a religion or as a
philosophy?
If so, is that belief shared by the official teachings of your order,
the HOGD RO +A+O?
Is the religion of candidates and members of great importance to your
order, the HOGD RO A+O?
I ask these things because i happen to know, for instance, that in
mainstream male Freemasonry, despite the historical enphasis it places
on religious tolerance (vide Rudyad Kipling's poem, "The Mother Lodge"),
certain national Grand Lodges have historically required a ceritificate
of Christian baptism for lodge membership. Also, in Germany, before
World War II, there were, i believe, 6 independent Masonic grand lodge
systems, 4 of which forbade membership to Jews and 2 of which allowed
Jews to join. Obviously, therefore, a genral system of spiritual
practice which ostensibly open to members of all faiths, may be closed
de facto, or even closed secretly.
Does the HOGD RR A+O allow Jews to join?
Does it allow Christians to join?
Does it allow Muslims to join?
Does it allow Buddhists to join?
Does it allow Taoistss to join?
Does it allow Neo-Pagans to join?
Does it allow Satanists to join?
Does it allow Atheists to join?
While i am on the subject of organizational tolerance -- and intolerance
-- i wonder if you recall the discussions in alt.magick a few years ago,
in which Robert Word participated, during which claims were made that
there was historical evidence that the BOTA, another Rsicrucian/GD
system of initiation and study, at one time (prior to the late 1970s, i
believe) maintained a secret policy of refusing higher-grade initiations
to homosexuals, despite the fact that one of their leading members at
that time was a closeted gay man.
This brings up another question: does the HOGD RO A+O admit openly
homosexual men to its ranks? What about openly lesbian women?
> As for Mr. Christie and his fruit, they're called sour grapes.
>
> To further set
> the record straight, I am a member of an active Mid-Western, U.S.
> temple and am not the presiding Hierophant of a temple in Canada as
> was stated by some anonymous e-mailer in one of your "scholarly"
> reports.
Great. Thanks for setting that record straight, as i requested.
> Good night and LVX
> Mark Bolks
Good morning and i look forward to your response here in alt.magick.
cat yronwode
catherine yronwode
>
> Anonymous Troll "Tom" wrote:
>
> > You have bee talking about proof.
> > Can you prove that these temples exist
> > today?
>
> Well, let's see. We have, on the one hand, the word of two real
> people
> who are actual temple members posting under their own names; "Mark
> Bolks"
> and "Leigh-Ann Grace Bachman," and on the other hand, unsubstantiated
> rumors being spread by "anonymous propaganda trolls;" "Tom" and
> "Teletourgos."
> I guess more appropriate questions would be:
> 1, Can anyone prove that trolls "Tom" and "Teletourgos" really exist?
> (and are not mere propaganda socks?)
> 2. Assuming that they do exist, who are they and on what basis should
> they be given any credibility whatsoever in this matter?
Obviously, ANON fairplaygd, you are relatively new to alt.magick. Tom
really exists. He is Tom Schuler, formerly a Neo-Pagan Druid, currently
a skeptic and an agressive cold-reader who uses psychobabble to attack
those who are engaged in any sort of faith-based magic.
Tom has been posting here (and in alt.skeptic) for about 20 years. He is
a despicable piece of shit, but unlike an ANON troll, he is quite open
about his identity. He is not anyone's sock-puppet at this time,
although he did use the ANON name "Blue Rajah" for a while several years
ago.
Anonymity cuts both ways, and that caper ended up losing Tom his
credibility as a philospher and intellectual sparring partner in this
group. Had Tom remained simply Tom Schuler, his controversial,
mean-spirited, and even intentionally hurtful posts would have been
chalked up to who he was, his life's experiences, and his present
situation, but by using the cloak of anonymity to attack people with
more vnom than he did under his real name -- and then being exposed in
public as a cowardly character assassin -- he earned a life-time's worth
of ill-will.
Eventually, to his credit, Tom laid off of the anonymity "drug" and went
clean and sober, and he is once more just "our Tom," Tom the skeptic,
Tom the cold-reader, Tom the Randi Challenge promoter, Tom the
anti-mage, Tom the theories-of-consciousness peddler -- and thus he is
easy to kill-file or ignore should you not wish to engage him in
fruitless dialogue. (And trust me, if your interests are in magic or
spirituality, discourse with him will be fruitless, as he is only
interested in tearing down paranormality, mysticism, spirituality, and
magical beliefs of any sort and substituting for them a psychological
and anti-spiritual viewpoint based on materialism.)
Of course you, ANON fairplaygd, being just another fragmented,
throw-away ANON persona, don't realize that it takes courage and
dedication to one's principles to drop an ANON mask and stand up for
your beliefs. Even the vile and cruelly abusive Tom has to be given real
credit for posting under his own name: he is a man of substance and one
to be reckoned with, especially when compared with you, a pussilanimous
wretch who is mired in the self=delusion that ANON posting will somehow
save you from accountability for your actions and your beliefs.
Think about it.
Maybe you can drop the mask too. If Tom Schuler did, you can do it too.
> The burden of proof in this case clearly lies on the
> baseless-rumor-mongering-anonymous-trolls and
> sock puppets, rather than the other way around.
>
> By the way, where is the proof to back up the BS
> lineage claims of Babwahsing's SIRA and Cicero's
> Golden Dawn? Could you please provide proof of
> that "Tom" and "Teletourgos" and quit trying
> to change the subject and divert attention
> by spreading silly rumors about temples?
It is becoming increasingly obvious to me, and i assume to others, that
ANON Jean (teletourgos) uses shifty language to disparage the existence
of temples and numbers of members in and even remotely associated with
Griffin's HOGD RO A+O. These discrepencies have come to light often
enough that ANON Jean (teletourgos) has lost a certain amount of
credibility in that area of reportage, while yet remaining credible in
matters dealing with GD / Rosicrucian history predating 1960 or so.
cat yronwode
(whose patience is great, but not inexhaustible)
catherine yronwode
That's patent bullshit. The locations of temples and lodges is often
made public. Ditto for Neo-Pagan covens, groves, and circles. Whether or
not such information is mad e public depends on the organization's
policies, of course. Each has its own standards.
catherine yronwode
This is what you are best at, Tom, and i appreciate it.
I say this hoping that you will understand that while the claims and
counter-claims regading the exstence of PHYSICAL TEMPLES can be sorted
ou using your simple, strightforward materialistic approach, i still
oppose your attempts to make people present material evidence for their
own personal spiritual, mystical, magical, or metaphysical claims of
experience.
cat yronwode
not softening, but refining the limits of my hatred.
Sar Draconis
> Robert, it hardly matters who I am or who you are.
>
> What matters is the facts. I'm here to provide Cat with information
> on this programme booklet. If you have anything useful to say on
> this, direct it to her.
Your repeated statements that I have ever published on the subject of
the Wilson SRIA paper is patently false, nor have I ever given rise to
any theses or claims on the subject. Thus, your statements in this
regard are not only supported, but they are downright lies.
Once again, I have no interest or views on the subject.
>
> As far as this involves you, to any extent, it harks back to an
> earlier thread where you were offering 'information' on the
> SRIAmerica.
>
> Dishonest information, because you neglected to inform the reader of
> your particular history with that group.
My history with SRIAmerica is as follows:
1) I have never been a member of that organization, nor even
subscribed to their lessons. The information I posssess was delivered
to me circa 1987 by Patriarch Spruit, who consecrated Serena a bishop,
and then later confirmed to me by Serena herself in direct phone
conversation. Additionally, Serena personally confirmed to me that
she had not received the "tenth degree transmission" from an earlier
rosicrucian order, which had been received by her deceased husband,
Plummer, thus annulling, or cancelling out, that particular line.
However, the organization DID still possess a rosicrucian transmission
possessed by Manly Hall, and sent to SRIAm headquarters in the
1930's. But much more critical to the practice of Stella Matutina
rituals within SRIAm (still active in Serena's day) was the CHARTER
from Stella Matutina, which had been received by Theodotus in the
1950's.
Best regards,
Sar Draconis
On May 28, 10:42 am, Sar Draconis <SarDraco...@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 10:20?am, Sar Draconis <SarDraco...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Prior to his return to the U.K., Barshenksi created a branch of the
> > Aurum Solis in the Twin City Minnesota area which was associated with
> > Carl Weshke, then editor in chief of Llewellyn Publications. After
> > his return to england, Barshenksi ran various branches of Aurum Solis
> > in America, U.K., and continental Europe (where the rituals were
> > translated into various vernacular languages.) Of course, it was
> > then
> > Llewellyn publications which was the principal publisher of the Aurum
> > Solis books and manuals.
> > After Barshenksi's return to England, the Carl Weshke branch became
> > dormant.
> > One of the initiates of the Car Weshke Aurum Solis was one Michael
> > Albion MacDonald, founder of the Order of the Kethric Light.
> > Interestingly also, Michael Albion MacDonald in the 1970's lived in
> > the U.K. for a while, and joined the Golden Dawn under Desmond
> > Bourke: MacDonald was ceremonially advanced from 0-0 all the way up
> > through 7=4 in the Desmond Bourke Golden Dawn. MacDonald came to
> > incorporate advanced Golden Dawn material taken from the grades of
> > 5=6, 6=5 and 7=4 into his Order of the Kethric Light, presumably
> > originating from Desmond Bourke (I still possess an extensive
> > collection of Order of the Kethric Light papers with this
> > information.)
> > However, back in the states, he ran afoul of the Aurum Solis: he
> > claimed that his research proved that the Aurum Solis was of
> > "relatively recent origin" and therefore contradicting claims of
> > Aurum
> > Solis to an "ancient origin." His reward for engaging in this
> > research and ariving at said conclusion was "expulsion from the Aurum
> > Solis."
> > Following his untimely and premature death in 1989, MacDonald's Order
> > of the Kethric Light was also to become dormant. Today only a grave
> > marker in Palo Alto marks the remains of MacDonald, cited on the
> > marker as "Founder of the Order of the Kethric Light." Fewer still
> > are in possession of the Desmond Bourke 7=4 Golden Dawn papers as
> > transmitted through MacDonald. Curiously also, MacDonald bore a
> > striking resemblence to certain photographs of S.L. MacGregor
> > Mathers,
> > and he also possessed the belief (some would say suffered from the
> > delusion) that he was the reincarnation of S.L. MacGregor Mathers.
> > Ultimately Barshenksi was to come to expel ALL american Aurum Solis
> > members, but simultanously granting charter of "spiritual
> > succession"
> > in a lineage of hoary antiquity for the Aurum Solis, as created
> > within
> > the fertile imagination of Mr. Barshenksi himself.
> > On May 18, 10:17 am, Sar Draconis <SarDraco...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On May 17, 10:31 pm, Sar Draconis <SarDraco...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On May 10, 7:59 pm, Sar Draconis <SarDraco...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > > P.S. As Crowe is now deceased, it is unfortunately impossible to
> > > > > > verify today that he once possessed the "secret handshake" of the 7=4
> > > > > > in the Stella Matutina.
> > > > > It is interesting that Crowe's episcopal successor in his gnostic
> > > > > church later de-camped and joined the Coptic Orthodox Church, being re-
> > > > > consecrated a Bishop by Pope Shenouda, where he remains the official
> > > > > Coptic Church representative in England. Conceivably he might still
> > > > > be contactable regarding Crowe's Stella Matutina claims.
> > > > > SAR
> > > > Crowe's episcopal successor was His Grace Bishop Seraphim, who
> > > > retained the same episcopal name once re-consecrated by His Holiness
> > > > Pope Shenouda. It would be supposed that much of Bishop Seraphim's
> > > > congregation also converted to the Coptic Orthodox faith at the same
> > > > time. Recent Coptic publications still describe His Grace Bishop
> > > > Seraphim as current representative of his Holiness Pope Shenouda in
> > > > England.
> > > > In interesting connection arisedregarding Crowe's Stella Matutina
> > > > claims:
> > > > (He issued a charter to 1950's Soc. Roc. in America Imperator
> > > > Theodotus, authorizing the Soc. Roc. in America to make use of the
> > > > rituals of Stella Matutina. Result: All the "colleges" of Soc. Roc.
> > > > in America convert their temples over to a ritualism essentially
> > > > identical to published Regardie material, and very distinct from the
> > > > college material utilized under Plummer).
> > > > Mathers constituted Coptic as the ultimate magical language of the
> > > > Golden Dawn curriculum. Perhaps it was from his Coptic studies in the
> > > > Stella Matutina curriculum which led Crowe's successor to an interest
> > > > in, and later joining, the Coptic Orthodox Church.
> > > > Needless to say, though, theologically the Coptic Orthodox Church is
> > > > very, very far from the usages of the Stella Matutina, being fully
> > > > focused
> > > > on an orthodox theology and practice of the Teachings of its Lord,
> > > > Jesus Christ.
> > > > + Sar Draconis
> > > It was circa 1951 that W.B. Crow issued a charter to Theodotus of
> > > SRIAm authorizing him to work the rituals of the Stella Matutina.
> > > Soon afterwards, Theodotus thoroughly revised the rituals of SRIAm
> > > into the form as worked by the Stella Matutina.
> > > >From this occurance, we may conclude that W.B. Crow considered that he
> > > possessed an authority to issue charters or warrents authorizing
> > > recipients of the warrents to work the rites of the Stella Matutina,
> > > i.e., he considered himself to be 7=4 or higher in the Stella
> > > Matutina.
> > > Secondly, it would appear that Theodotus may have thought he "needed"
> > > a charter from Stella Matutina, in order to work the GD style rituals
> > > of the Stella Matutina.
> > > Under Theodotus, one of the Colleges of SRIAm to successfully work
> > > Stella Matutina rituals was "Golden Gate College" located in the San
> > > Francisco Bay Area.
> > > Theodotus married the widow of Plummer, i.e., Serena. Upon his death,
> > > Serena became the Imperatrix of SRIAm, and continued to work Stella
> > > Matutina style rituals as authorized by the Charter from W.B. Crow,
> > > 7=4 of Stella Matutina. Assuming that Crow did indeed possess this
> > > grade, his charter would have made SRIAm a "legitimate" branch of the
> > > GD initiatic stream.
> Assuming that the Archive of the Order of Holy Wisdom is intact, it is
> conceivable that they contain material germain to the alleged
> Theodotus charter and Stella Matutina claims of Crow. The following
> website alludes to this charter:
> http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/html/s2.htm
> as follows:
> "S: There is, to my knowledge, no W.B. Crow-derived O.T.O. currently
> in
> operation. In fact, I have a copy of a letter from Dr. Gregory
> Tillett
> to Martin P. Starr, (with whom I believe you are acquainted)
> dated Sept.
> 5, 1995. This letter is a response to a letter sent by Mr. Starr
> to His
> Grace Metropolitan Seraphim, the Most Reverend W.H.H. Newman-
> Norton. Dr.
> Tillett responded to Mr. Starr on behalf of His Grace, at His
> Grace's
> request. The Metropolitan Seraphim is the successor to Dr. W.B.
> Crow for
> the Order of Holy Wisdom, and the heir of its archives. The
> letter
> contains the following quote, "Metropolitan Seraphim is not
> aware of Dr.
> Crow ever having made any claim to have succeeded Aleister
> Crowley as
> OHO of the OTO. While correspondence does exist between Dr. Crow
> and
> Crowley, I have seen no evidence of contact between Dr. Crow and
> those
> who claimed to have succeeded Crowley. Although I have, in past
> years,
> worked on the material in the Warburg Institute, I cannot recall
> any
> claim by Dr. Crow in this reg ard, and, since I was specifically
> looking
> for material on him, I think I would have noted such a claim if
> it was
> made." If you would like a copy of this letter, it would be best
> if you
> would obtain it directly from Mr. Starr."
> thus confirming His Grace Metropolitan Seraphim, the Most Reverend
> W.H.H. Newman-Norton as episcopal successor to Crow (and now the
> representative in England of the Coptic Orthodox Church.)
> However, the difficulty of Starr in reaching His Grace directly
> suggests that direct access to this Archive may be difficult at the
> time of this writing. However, Dr. Tillet, a university scholar
> specializing in conflict resolution, may conceivably have more
> information regarding the transmissions of the Stella Matutina lineage
> via Crow charter to SRIAm.
> Interestingly, Dr. Gregory Tillett is known to have associated with
> Desmond Bourke during a sojourn in England, and to have received
> transmission of Stella Matutina 7=4 from him. As Bourke was also an
> associate of Crow, the connections of Tillett to both Bourke and
> Seraphim, successor of Crow, is suggestive also of the connection of
> Stella Matutina charter from Crow to Theodotus of SRIAm. The latter
> Charter provided Theodotus with an authoritative basis to adopt the
> Stella Matutina rituals into the Colege workings of SRIAm in the
> 1950's, including, it is thought, the Golden Gate College of SRIAm,
> which was once active in the Bay Area.
> Sar Draconis
Interestingly also, W.B. Crow, like Israel Regardie, had been an
associate of Aleister Crowley, and had even been named a Patriarch
within Crowley's church.
The following website:
http://www.egc.org.uk/misc/egc_crowley_crow.shtml
sets forth an address from Crowley to Crow and naming him to office
within his organization:
"Crowley Making W.B. Crow E.G.C. Patriarch
1944
Aleister Crowley to William Bernard Crow (born 11.9.1895)
To Mega Therion
The Word of The Aeon
Unto All And Singular To Whom These Presents Shall Come
Whereas the Gnostic Catholic Church, adhering to the vital elements
of
the most ancient true tradition, fixes its intentions and its aims
most firmly on the future. And whereas the world has entered the New
Aeon, the Age of the Crowned and Conquering Child, and the Masters
have decided that the time has come for High Initiates to administer
the Sacraments of the Age of Horus. Now, therefore, We, by virtue of
the Supreme authority vested in us do hereby nominate and appoint our
very dear brother and most reverend father in God William Bernard
Crow
by the name and title of [Mahoran Mar] Basilius Abdullah [III.] a
Sovereign Patriarch of the Gnostic Catholic Church and Vicar of
Salomon with full right, power and authority to administer the said
Church and to consecrate, ordein, appoint hyrarchs, priests,
priestesses, deacons and other necessary Officers therein, to work
the
Gnostic Catholic Mass, and to take charge of all ceremonials,
organisational, and financial affairs in connection therewith.
Love is the law, love under will.
... August 1944 e.v. "
Possibly Crow was in contact with Plummer and later Theodotus through
Crowley, who
was also acquainted with Plummer. In fact, Plummer was a member of
an
"Ark Lodge"
in the New York City area which permitted visitations from Crowley
(as
a Mason under
the Grand Lodge of France!)
If indeed Dr. Tillett (a 7=4 of Desmond Bourke vintage) has access to
the Crow archives, then probably he would be in a position to
elucidate more fully a great many things about the occult
career of W.B. Crow, and bearing especially on the question of the
Stella Matutina charter
to Theodotus, enabling the SRIAm to practice that particular variant
of GD ritualism legitimately.
Sar Draconis
> > Plummer, like Crow, was an "independant apostolic bishop." However,
> > > he failed to consecrate his successor, Serena, as a bishop. Serena
> > > ultimately became a Bishop at the consecrating hands of Adrian Spruit,
> > > Patriarch of the Church of Antioch, and who claimed an apostolic
> > > succession. Thus, Bishop Serena would simultaneously officiate at
> > > apostolic Church services while also directing the performance of
> > > Stella Matutina Grade rituals and advancements within the College
> > > structure of SRIAm. In 1987 I interviewed Patriarch Spruit directly
> > > at his Church then operating in Mtn. View, and he described and
> > > confirmed the facts
> > > of his consecration of Serena, as well as SRIAm involvement as a
> > > chartered direct lineal successor of Stella Matutina by virtue of W.B.
> > > Crowe 7=4 Charter.
> > > I had occasion to interview Bishop Serena also circa 1987, who
> > > lovingly re-confirmed the various details of Stella Matutina ritualism
> > > and W.B. Crowe charter as stated to me as well by Patriarch Spruit.
> > > Was Bishop Serena involved in Enochian system workings? Undoubtedly
> > > this is the case, as SRIAm worked ritualism very similar, if not
> > > completely identical, to the work of Stella Matutina by Israel
> > > Regardie, and originally published by Aries Press. They had their
> > > own
> > > very distinctive "style" of performing these Stella Matutina Rituals
> > > of Crowe, which would be known to differ in some striking
> > > particularities from the workings of certain trained students of
> > > Israel Regardie, the latter of whom also adhered to the ritualism of
> > > his publications.
> > > As previously remarked, Crowe had also been involved in the Church
> > > ritualism of Aleister Crowley, as a google search will show. I expect
> > > to find the time in the near future to do such a search on your
> > > behalf, dear reader, and to append additional details.
> > > The succession of Bishop Seraphim from Crowe is also significant, as
> > > the chief Metropolitan of the Coptic Orthodox Church in England, he
> > > continues to be a significant force on the spiritual / christian scene
> > > in that country.
> > > Sar Draconis
> > > P.S. Patriarch Spruit also confided to me that he had ordained as
> > > priest the chief of another well known occult order, also deeply
> > > involved in the enochian system, as well, as christian, gnostic, and
> > > pagan structured magickal workings. Of this, more later.- Hide quoted text -
> > Additionally, Patriarch Spruit explained that just as he had
> > consecrated Serena the Imperatrix of SRIAm (and successor of
> > Theodotus) as a Bishop, so also he ordained as Priest Leon
> > Barshenski, the head and co-creator of the Aurum Solis.
> > In the mid-1980's, one of the Llewellyn Publications of Aurum Solis
> > cited Adrian Spruit and his Church of Antioch as an outlet for the
> > teachings of the Aurum Solis.
> > Like the Stella Matutina Rituals practiced by Reverend Mother Serena,
> > the Aurum Solis also had a significant interest in the Enochian
> > System
> > formulated by John Dee, Edward Kelly, and assorted Spirits during the
> > Elizabethan Era; certain of their publications dealt with this
> > praxis. Additionally, they taught and practiced a sophisticated form
> > of sigil magick.
> > The Aurum Solis taught a system of Ogdoadic pseudo-gnostic Godforms
> > invoked by its adherents, as created by Aurum Solis founder Leon
> > Barshenski. Thus, Barshenski stands as one of the significant
> > magickal system creators / pioneers of the twentieth century.
> > Barshenski claimed that his Magickal Order was a Tradition going back
> > to the Middle Ages, and earlier even, to Ancient Times.
> > Adrian Spruit stated to me that having ordained Barshenksi a Priest,
> > it was the last he saw of him.
> > Sar Draconis
>
> Jean
>
>
alectrum
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
...and then the big bad bunny came,
'LIES' - he cried with fearsom voice,
and all aflame the bunnies lept,
to contest One with diverse choice,
of that and this, tother and tither,
whilst the fearful bunnies
scuttled for cover...
Trevor Walker
straight in this important regard. The Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et
Omega® is not a religious organization. Unlike certain other orders,
religion, race, creed, colour, and sexual orientation simply are not
factors in acceptance for initiation nor for grade advancement in our
outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®. The same holds
true for the Second or Third orders of the Alpha et Omega® as well.
Among its membership, the A+O® presently has active members from
various religious faiths as well as of various sexual orientations.
These things do not even play a role in selection for leadership
positions within the Alpha et Omega. Indeed, although he prefers to
personally stay out of usenet discussions, one present Hierophant of
our order is gay. This fact is well known and well accepted by the
members of the Temple over which he presides, as well as by the
leadership of our order.
H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
Hierophant.
Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
London, U.K.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
Cat Yronwode wrote:
>
> Is the religion of candidates and members of great importance to your
> order, the HOGD RO A+O?
> Does the HOGD RR A+O allow Jews to join?
>
> Does it allow Christians to join?
>
> Does it allow Muslims to join?
>
> Does it allow Buddhists to join?
>
> Does it allow Taoistss to join?
>
> Does it allow Neo-Pagans to join?
>
> Does it allow Satanists to join?
>
> Does it allow Atheists to join?
>
alectrum
> Thank you for providing an occasion for our order to set the record
> straight in this important regard. The Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et
> Omega® is not a religious organization. Unlike certain other orders,
> religion, race, creed, colour, and sexual orientation simply are not
> factors in acceptance for initiation nor for grade advancement in our
> outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®. The same holds
> true for the Second or Third orders of the Alpha et Omega® as well.
> Among its membership, the A+O® presently has active members from
> various religious faiths as well as of various sexual orientations.
> These things do not even play a role in selection for leadership
> positions within the Alpha et Omega. Indeed, although he prefers to
> personally stay out of usenet discussions, one present Hierophant of
> our order is gay. This fact is well known and well accepted by the
> members of the Temple over which he presides, as well as by the
> leadership of our order.
>
> H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
> Hierophant.
> Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
> London, U.K.
> Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
> outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
That's nice.
Just one more question...
...in what way do you accomodate the neuro-diverse in your temple/s?
If you had a candidate that was advanced enough to screw up all your
initiations (heh - as complex as they are) in a flash of light then
could you really accomodate them? hmmmm?
What does it mean to you when an initiate cannot be ultimately bound
by your methods?
Not a failure of the initiation ritual - but progress without fetters?
Completely without fetters - in essence.
?
Tom
"catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
news:46645656...@herb-magic.com...
>
> Obviously, ANON fairplaygd, you are relatively new to alt.magick. Tom
> really exists. He is Tom Schuler, formerly a Neo-Pagan Druid, currently
> a skeptic and an agressive cold-reader who uses psychobabble to attack
> those who are engaged in any sort of faith-based magic.
Whose point of view was perfectly OK with you until I started pointing out
your own flagrant lack of business ethics and personal integrity. Then all
of a sudden I became an awful person. You run a cheap ass, penny-ante
trinket business preying upon the most superstitious and gullible people you
can find and you absolutely hate anybody who says so. On top of that, you
are a chronic emotional basket case, which has been made painfully obvious
to everyone who has followed your posts in the last few months as you ranted
about how you hate Buddhists because nobody believed you when you accused
your dead step-daddy, who happened to be a Buddhist, of rape.
Every time you take another of your unprovoked pokes at me, your tenuous
hold on emotional stability and the deleterious effects of all that
carefully nourished hatred on your rationality are further confirmed, but
you just can't help yourself.
Tom
> Tom wrote:
>>
>> Occultists routinely refuse to provide substantive evidence for virtually
>> any of their claims. It's one reason why hardly anyone considers them
>> credible.
>
> That's patent bullshit.
I've asked you many times for verifiable evidence that the occult trinkets
you hawk do what you claim they do and you have adamantly refused to even
consider it. If you want to show that what I say is bullshit, back up the
claims for your products. If you won't, then you are a classic example of
exactly what I just stated.
alectrum
Tom - (and catherine) - a personal request please. I would like a
reply to my post above - and I fear that too much noise will occlude
it. For just a very small time - will you desist from your mutual
enmity? I would appreciate it. Thank you. :-)
inlvxveritas
> Of course you, ANON fairplaygd, being just another fragmented,
> throw-away ANON persona, don't realize that it takes courage and
> dedication to one's principles to drop an ANON mask and stand up for
> your beliefs. Even the vile and cruelly abusive Tom has to be given real
> credit for posting under his own name: he is a man of substance and one
> to be reckoned with, especially when compared with you, a pussilanimous
> wretch who is mired in the self=delusion that ANON posting will somehow
> save you from accountability for your actions and your beliefs.
Aww, don't get mad, Cat...
Behold...
On May 19 and 20, fairplaygd posted 4 messages from NNTP-Posting-Host IP
80.77.80.57:
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/bfee43ae173922d5#bfee43ae173922d5)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/ff17292c818ae50f/fa00e6960bb4637c#fa00e6960bb4637c)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/8a664ca021ef1cc3#8a664ca021ef1cc3)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/cb190566ca05622a#cb190566ca05622a)
On June 3, susanwhite200789 posted a message from the very same IP address:
Furthermore, orderoftheroseandcross posted a faux manifesto from the
identical IP address:
This basically means that fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
orderoftheroseandcross are all the same person.
Furthermore, on June 3, fairplaygd posted a message from 70.1.40.203:
This resolves to a Sprint PCS cluster with a net range of 70.1.1.1 -
70.14.255.255. However, only subnets 70.1.x.x and 70.7.xx are hosted in
Beverly Hills, CA.
Moving over to Griffin's HOGD Yahoo group...on June 3, hogdaomoderator
posted this message from X-Yahoo-Post-IP 70.1.23.202:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12941)
and this message on May 30 from 70.7.135.164:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12842)
Furthermore, luxexseptentrionis posted this message on May 30 from
70.7.238.92:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12840)
and this message on April 15 from 70.7.203.153:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11568)
And the cherry on top: Griffin's "Golden Dawn Publishing", which
published his "Ritual Magic Manual" in 1999, is based out of Beverly
Hills, CA.
Final note: NNTP-Posting-Host and X-Yahoo-Post-IP headers are assigned
by the server receiving the message and therefore cannot be spoofed by
users.
Judge for yourself.
inlvxveritas
~ILV~
Trevor Walker wrote:
> Thank you for providing an occasion for our order to set the record
> straight in this important regard. The Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et
> OmegaŽ is not a religious organization. Unlike certain other orders,
> religion, race, creed, colour, and sexual orientation simply are not
> factors in acceptance for initiation nor for grade advancement in our
> outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden DawnŽ. The same holds
> true for the Second or Third orders of the Alpha et OmegaŽ as well.
> Among its membership, the A+OŽ presently has active members from
> various religious faiths as well as of various sexual orientations.
> These things do not even play a role in selection for leadership
> positions within the Alpha et Omega. Indeed, although he prefers to
> personally stay out of usenet discussions, one present Hierophant of
> our order is gay. This fact is well known and well accepted by the
> members of the Temple over which he presides, as well as by the
> leadership of our order.
>
> H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
> Hierophant.
> Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
> London, U.K.
> Hermetic Order of the Golden DawnŽ,
> outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et OmegaŽ.
alectrum
>
> - Show quoted text -
This was - of course - posted in the wee small hours under the
influence.
Thanks anyway chaps. chapesses.
:-)))
alectrum
on for all these years.
I've just understoon it. Excellent! That's been bugging me for ages!
It's an automomy thing.
The GD members give over a part of their autonomy to their respective
organisations - and a subconscious part of them is disturbed by this
relinqishing of autonomy and motivates them to rebel. The actual
collective rituals they do (group focused on individual) will make
this in-fighting almost inevitable. The fights will last as long as
they feel their autonomy is comprimised.
*That* is what is causing these fights. The rest is pure semantics
and reactive hair pulling.
Ah - all's rights with the world now! :-)))
teletourgos
the Griffin Order on.
I am familiar with Robert Word's informative discussion on here with
the late Joseph Nolen about sexual preference in BOTA and their
policy.
(Cat, if you are interested, search the archives around 1997.)
There have been somewhat veiled comments to regard what went on
between Ann Davies and the late Gene Emard (the senior homosexual
member of BOTA in question) and why it was decided homosexual members
could not be part of Chapter work.
What was hurtful about the BOTA policy is that the Order has often
lied or avoided telling gay and lesbian aspirants to Chapter of the
reason for their exclusion.
Even now, when questioned on this by me, the response of at least one
senior BOTA member was to duck and cover.
That is troublesome to me.
Either they feel the policy is right, and they are perfectly within
their rights to do so, but they ought be up front enough to say, and
be mature enough to tell their gay and lesbian members that this is
the case.
One is to get the feeling that they are ashamed of their policy.
Since the transition of Proculotor-General, Fr Chesterman a couple of
years ago, I am not sure what the BOTA policy is. (Chesterman was a
fundamentalist Christian of some stripe.)
But as recently as two years ago, they were evasive on this important
question when I asked for a straightforward answer.
Jean
On Jun 5, 8:04 am, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> Trevor is 100% correct in this regard.
>
> ~ILV~
>
>
>
> Trevor Walker wrote:
> > Thank you for providing an occasion for our order to set the record
> > straight in this important regard. The Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et
> > Omega® is not a religious organization. Unlike certain other orders,
> > religion, race, creed, colour, and sexual orientation simply are not
> > factors in acceptance for initiation nor for grade advancement in our
> > outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®. The same holds
> > true for the Second or Third orders of the Alpha et Omega® as well.
alectrum
I've only been sticking around till I could answer the question of why/
how people could fight so long. I can bog off this ng now. Nice to
have met you all - very weird but nice all the same. Good luck with
the Great Work and all of that!
My best to you all,
Alectrum.
teletourgos
dummy merely because I don't play the game the way you think I ought
to.
You also appear to be trying to convey an aura of magnanimity which is
rather unusual in this circumstance. You are not the Goddess-Mother
of alt.magick and we are all free here, to post what we will. I am
not your errant, uncooperative child.
If you regard 'allegedly' and other similar words as 'shifty', there
isn't much I can say except that statements about defections and low
numbers were made to me by ex-members, but that I cannot confirm them,
so I qualify my statement with words like 'allegedly'.
It's a qualifier that can be overused - as you yourself noted in the
raft of allegations about the Ciceros. I'll try to keep it to a
minimum.
I have also stated many times that people need to confirm what I, and
everyone here says, for themselves. My identity should not matter,
and is irrelevant in that respect.
You may note that only a few days after my post about low numbers and
defections, real members of the Griffin temple came on here and
confirmed there had been defections, and then segued into their own
argument about how those were dealt with in the Order.
Further, I have made no secret of the fact that I do not like the
Griffin Order, and the reasons why.
Though, that said, I complemented them earlier this morning for their
stance on discrimination . . . so even I can be persuaded !
As regards the UK temple, I sent an email to the UK temple's address
a little while ago - cannot remember when - and was told that the
temple was not operating at that time. Unfortunately I have not kept
it or I would post it here.
Jean
> It is becoming increasingly obvious to me, and i assume to others, that
> ANONJean(teletourgos) uses shifty language to disparage the existence
> of temples and numbers of members in and even remotely associated with
> Griffin's HOGD RO A+O. These discrepencies have come to light often
> enough that ANONJean(teletourgos) has lost a certain amount ofcredibilityin that area of reportage, while yet remaining credible in
> matters dealing with GD / Rosicrucian history predating 1960 or so.
>
> cat yronwode
> (whose patience is great, but not inexhaustible)- Hide quoted text -
catherine yronwode
>
> And, if this is the policy, it is something I would like to commend
> the Griffin Order on.
>
> I am familiar with Robert Word's informative discussion on here with
> the late Joseph Nolen about sexual preference in BOTA and their
> policy.
Thanks, Jean. I recall that Word was in conversation with Michael
Green. Was Green a nym of Joseph Nolen? Or did Wrd discuss BOTA's
homosexual exclusion policty with several people?
Cluelessly and too hastily to do my own lookups,
cat yronwode :-)
teletourgos
> ANON Jean (teletourgos) uses shifty language to disparage the existence
> of temples and numbers of members in and even remotely associated with
> Griffin's HOGD RO A+O. These discrepencies have come to light often
> enough that ANON Jean (teletourgos) has lost a certain amount of
> credibility in that area of reportage,
And another thing . . .
In the past couple of days, it has become clear, through discussions
here - with which I am not associated - that there have been
defections from the Griffin order, and their former Cancellarius gives
his recollections on the drop in the number of temples - telling us
that by Autumn Equinox 2005 only half those in 2002 existed.
Further, one of those people mentioned her discomfort with posting
online on behalf of the Imperator.
Almost simultaneously, four pro-Griffin 'identities' here have been
uncovered as coming from the same computer.
At the last, we see Griffin himself here with his trademark spelling
errors (or possibly, someone posting cutting and pasting verbatim on
his behalf) attacking OR+C, which has just been publicly announced,
but which he obviously already feels has the where-with-al to be a
real threat.
Would an Order with a large and stable membership would do these
things ? You decide.
Jean
Trevor Walker
"techie" buddies have tried to lay something at the door of our
order
or its leaders using a daisy chain of public IPs or proxies, and it
will likely not be last time either. Your theory does not even
deserve further comment, except to state that if it had any real
merit, it would doubtlessly be backed up by legal action rather than
mere empty words. Our order would welcome such action by whatever
misguided party you may represent.
H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
Hierophant.
Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
London, U.K.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
On 5 Jun, 07:51, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> catherine yronwode wrote:
>
> > Of course you, ANON fairplaygd, being just another fragmented,
> > throw-away ANON persona, don't realize that it takes courage and
> > dedication to one's principles to drop an ANON mask and stand up for
> > your beliefs. Even the vile and cruelly abusive Tom has to be given real
> > credit for posting under his own name: he is a man of substance and one
> > to be reckoned with, especially when compared with you, a pussilanimous
> > wretch who is mired in the self=delusion that ANON posting will somehow
> > save you from accountability for your actions and your beliefs.
>
> Aww, don't get mad, Cat...
>
> Behold...
>
> On May 19 and 20, fairplaygd posted 4 messages from NNTP-Posting-Host IP
> 80.77.80.57:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/ff1729...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
>
> On June 3, susanwhite200789 posted a message from the very same IP address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> Furthermore, orderoftheroseandcross posted a faux manifesto from the
> identical IP address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/a34af2...)
>
> This basically means that fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
> orderoftheroseandcross are all the same person.
>
> Furthermore, on June 3, fairplaygd posted a message from 70.1.40.203:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> This resolves to a Sprint PCS cluster with a net range of 70.1.1.1 -
> 70.14.255.255. However, only subnets 70.1.x.x and 70.7.xx are hosted in
> Beverly Hills, CA.
>
> Moving over to Griffin's HOGD Yahoo group...on June 3, hogdaomoderator
> posted this message from X-Yahoo-Post-IP 70.1.23.202:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on May 30 from 70.7.135.164:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> Furthermore, luxexseptentrionis posted this message on May 30 from
> 70.7.238.92:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on April 15 from 70.7.203.153:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> And the cherry on top: Griffin's "Golden Dawn Publishing", which
> published his "Ritual Magic Manual" in 1999, is based out of Beverly
> Hills, CA.
>
> Final note: NNTP-Posting-Host and X-Yahoo-Post-IP headers are assigned
> by the server receiving the message and therefore cannot be spoofed by
> users.
>
> Judge for yourself.
>
>
>
> catherine yronwode wrote:
> > (whose patience is great, but not inexhaustible)- Hide quoted text -
>
mika
>
> Though, that said, I complemented them earlier this morning for their
> stance on discrimination . . . so even I can be persuaded !
"persuaded"? Nah. You can appreciate some of the things an
organization does and still have serious criticisms of the
organization itself (and/or its members). The idea that one must be
completely for or against a group, its members, its works,
philosophies and everything it stands for, is just plain silly.
Unless you buy into the territorial pissing and other pack animal
behavior, in which case, pick a side and stick to it already, Jean!
My word! How else will people know if you're part of "us" or part of
"them"?!
Trevor Walker
"As regards the UK temple, I sent an email to the UK temple's address
a little while ago - cannot remember when - and was told that the
temple was not operating at that time. Unfortunately I have not kept
it or I would post it here."
The UK Temple obviously does exist (minus some schismatic dead wood)
as I am its present Hierophant. I already clarified this to you once.
Please refrain from publishing further misrepresentations.
Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, YHShVH.
H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
Hierophant.
Temple of Ma'at,
No. 19, London, U.K.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
The Outer Order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
> > (whose patience is great, but not inexhaustible)- Hide quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
teletourgos
> teletourgos wrote:
>
> > And, if this is the policy, it is something I would like to commend
> > the Griffin Order on.
>
> > I am familiar with Robert Word's informative discussion on here with
> > policy.
>
> Thanks, Jean. I recall that Word was in conversation with Michael
> homosexual exclusion policty with several people?
>
> Cluelessly and too hastily to do my own lookups,
>
> cat yronwode :-)
He could have. I don't know Green, but Word referred to the late Mr
Nolen by name.
It was a lady from NZ who first made me aware of the policy -she hit
the glass ceiling in BOTA in the late 90s - and that was the reason
for my dragging it up.
This isn't anything to do with current feuds.
Jean