Tactics to bringing a language to life
news13...@hotmail.com
Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
Church.
1) You must bring the Coptic language to life in your own heart, soul
and mind.
2) You must then start a family.
3) You must encourage members of your family to communicate with you in
the Coptic language.
4) You must invite other interested families within the church to join
you.
5) If you own a business, make sure you recruit employees who can speak
the Coptic language to satisfactory standards.
6) When you have attained at least 1000 people establish a political
party.
7) Be fruitful and multiply! Yes, lets be active in evangelism :-)
I do hope you find doing the above enjoyable.
Have fun!
Alexei A. Frounze
> Hello!
>
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal.
You should probably advertise products on TV. They love saying NEW, BRAND
NEW, NEWER, implying BETTER, which is not necessarily true, and they do that
over and over again and only an imbecil can not figure out that all their
FORGET YOUR OLD SOMETHING, HERE'S THE BRAND NEW SOMETHING ELSE is an
infinite song for which they want get paid and whatever is new now will be
bad in the future and whatever will be new in the future will be again bad
in the deeper future and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
> I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> language to life.
Yeah, we're waiting for your treatment to cure our dumb mouths, your
Holiness.
> For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> Church.
>
> 1) You must bring the Coptic language to life in your own heart, soul
> and mind.
Don't tell others what they must, OK.
> 2) You must then start a family.
Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry someone like
you. Crazy enough to do that.
> 3) You must encourage members of your family to communicate with you
> in the Coptic language.
Maybe a clinic for mentally ill would be a good place to start the campaign.
The paitients will be excited about such a good new activity, which probably
won't happen in our communities among healthy people for they have some
better things to do every day.
> 4) You must invite other interested families within the church to join
> you.
>
> 5) If you own a business, make sure you recruit employees who can
> speak the Coptic language to satisfactory standards.
>
> 6) When you have attained at least 1000 people establish a political
> party.
>
> 7) Be fruitful and multiply! Yes, lets be active in evangelism :-)
>
> I do hope you find doing the above enjoyable.
Well, if you hoped to say something not very well-thought and make people
laugh at what you wrote or at yourself, you got it! :)
But if you're really concerned about the topic which you brought, it's not
all that easy or we would have had one language on our planet for hundreds
of years already.
Alex
K6
GAY PARALLEL REPUBLIC (GPR)
External Affairs
English language sector of activity
Message # 43
March 28,2006
A language such like Esperanto will not become a universal
language.There is no economic or military power behind it.No incentive
thus to learn it since it does not correspond to any geopolitical
reality.Even English,for all what stands behind it,is not really *the*
universal language.90% of the world population does not speak it to
start with.The idea of a universal language is an utopia,similar to the
one of the political unification of mankind.The sectarian,tribal and
nationalistic nature of the human specie will not allow it to become a
reality.
aran...@insightbb.com
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal.
I would argue the opposite is true. They *do* have unique appeal --
Esperanto because of its historical connection with international
cooperation, Klingon because of its intentional disregard for certain
so-called linguistic universals (and its connection with Star Trek),
Lojban because of its fanatical dedication to regularity and
unambiguous parseability, etc.
No, the problem is that they do not have *general* appeal.
Ruud Harmsen
Interlingua?
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
phog...@abo.fi
Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry someone like
> you. Crazy enough to do that.
I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning any
minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
languages ridiculous. I would like to point out that I do not like your
attitude.
Esben I.
> Interlingua?
Would be my bet. Only language I could understand at first try. Now, all
it needs is an army.
regards
Esben I.
Don
> Hello!
>
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> Church.
>
> 1) You must bring the Coptic language to life in your own heart, soul
> and mind.
>
> 2) You must then start a family.
>
> 3) You must encourage members of your family to communicate with you in
> the Coptic language.
>
They may be hard to convince, since Coptic has been dead, except for
religious purposes, since approximately the sixteenth century. It lacks
most of the vocabulary associated with life in the modern world.
> 4) You must invite other interested families within the church to join
> you.
>
This would only be of interest for religious reasons, a connection that
IALs ordinarily do not make.
> 5) If you own a business, make sure you recruit employees who can speak
> the Coptic language to satisfactory standards.
>
You will have a VERY small business.
> 6) When you have attained at least 1000 people establish a political
> party.
>
Sure. Drain off support from every party that has a chance, in favor of a
nutcase one that doesn't.
> 7) Be fruitful and multiply! Yes, lets be active in evangelism :-)
>
> I do hope you find doing the above enjoyable.
>
Well, the being fruitful and multiplying does sound like fun.
> Have fun!
>
--Don
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
>
>
>> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
>> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
>
> I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> languages ridiculous.
The three mentioned languages were invented, they weren't native languages
of some country or its part. What's the danger there? Do people who've
learned those invented languages suffer from inability of speaking their
/native/ language in their countries?
I'd not say some minor language is bad because it's minor or different or
its speakers are a minority or are different. And I didn't, did I? If you're
particularly upset about my statement of having one language on our planet,
then my personal opinion is this... People get closer and closer to each
other by means of transportation and information/telecommunication
technologies. That is good. But the language problem is still there -- you
can't just talk to anyone you've approached physically or met on the
internet, you must know their language for that or use some tools or
references to get the information translated from one language to the other.
And that is bad. If you think that I'm promoting some particular language
for all to speak, you're wrong. As long as everyone would speak that
language (eventually), I don't care what it is, it can be neither my native
nor others which I know. The same kind of badness is our countries... Just
don't get me wrong yet. Can you go to all places in the world now w/o having
a visa? I bet you can't (unless you're a president of a country which has
friendly relations with all other countries or something like that). You
can't cross all the borders just like that. I'm against the language borders
and country borders, which are difficult to cross. When there's just one
country, there's no border, there's no need to have armies just in case of a
war with some other country.
So, back to the language issue... There needs to be a language everyone
would understand. AFAIK, there're countries where people speak different
languages but there's one common state language in all parts of the country
and most people know it. We need that on a bigger scale, worldwide. If
that's English, OK. If that's Esperanto, OK. If that's something else that's
good enough for the purpose, OK. But god damn provide the real support (not
just some enthusiastic one among linguists) for it, urge to use, invest in
it on the govermental level. The church or several individuals can't do
that, they just do not have enough resources and authority.
> I would like to point out that I do not like
> your attitude.
We make our choices. I didn't like the one of the OP.
Cheers,
Alex
Christopher Culver
> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
> in their countries?
In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
should speak Esperanto instead of their native language. Even outside
of formal meetings or congresses, whenever I tried to stick to English
with my fellow English-speaker friends who happened to be
Esperantists, I was rebuffed with "Ni estas samideanoj, ni devus
paroli Esperanton. Ne krokodilu!" ("We are comrades, we should speak
Esperanto, don't use your native language!") This nuttery is why I
finally left.
> But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
> anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
> know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
> the information translated from one language to the other. And that
> is bad.
No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
Christopher Culver
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
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Larisa
Christopher Culver wrote:
>
> > But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
> > anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
> > know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
> > the information translated from one language to the other. And that
> > is bad.
>
> No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
> communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
> grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
> is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
> since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
mutually comprehensible.
LM
news13...@hotmail.com
> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
> > Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> >
> >
> >> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
> >> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
> >
> > I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> > imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> > any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> > languages ridiculous.
>
> The three mentioned languages were invented, they weren't native languages
All languages were invented :) and it does not matter whether it is
Hebrew, English, Esperanto, Coptic and Arabic. I like the method used
by Zionists to bring back Hebrew language to life.
> Can you go to all places in the world now w/o having
> a visa? I bet you can't (unless you're a president of a country which has
> friendly relations with all other countries or something like that). You
> can't cross all the borders just like that. I'm against the language borders
> and country borders, which are difficult to cross. When there's just one
> country, there's no border, there's no need to have armies just in case of a
> war with some other country.
>
25-member European Union is set towards becoming one country like the
50-member United States of America. Language diversity is the
foundation of both the EU and the US.
> But god damn provide the real support (not
> just some enthusiastic one among linguists) for it, urge to use, invest in
> it on the govermental level. The church or several individuals can't do
> that, they just do not have enough resources and authority.
>
I dislike government interference. The Church as the Christian
community is the foundation of Coptic nationalism.
> > I would like to point out that I do not like
> > your attitude.
>
> We make our choices. I didn't like the one of the OP.
>
Its your right to freely make your choice. If you love Russian, its
your free choice but its my free choice to love Coptic.
Alexei A. Frounze
> "Alexei A. Frounze" <ale...@chat.ru> writes:
>> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
>> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
>> in their countries?
>
> In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> should speak Esperanto instead of their native language. Even outside
> of formal meetings or congresses, whenever I tried to stick to English
> with my fellow English-speaker friends who happened to be
> Esperantists, I was rebuffed with "Ni estas samideanoj, ni devus
> paroli Esperanton. Ne krokodilu!" ("We are comrades, we should speak
> Esperanto, don't use your native language!") This nuttery is why I
> finally left.
Don't deal with those crocodiles refusing to speak with you because of the
language.
>> But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
>> anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
>> know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
>> the information translated from one language to the other. And that
>> is bad.
>
> No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
> communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
> grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
> is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
> since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
Diversity *is* good. Absense of the common language is bad.
Alex
Bob LeChevalier
>"Alexei A. Frounze" <ale...@chat.ru> writes:
>> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
>> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
>> in their countries?
>
>In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
>movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
>should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
Hilarious.
In 1989 at the World Science Fiction Convention in Boston, the Lojban
booth and The Esperanto booth were adjacent. The Esperantists seemed
to speak less Esperanto to each other than us Lojbanists spoke Lojban
to each other - and there were as yet no competent Lojban speakers.
I commented on this fact, and was told precisely the opposite of what
you just claimed - Esperantists who share a common native language
speak that native language.
lojbab
António Marques
> I'm against the language borders and country borders, which are
> difficult to cross. When there's just one country, there's no border,
> there's no need to have armies just in case of a war with some other
> country.
While we're at it, we could make it so that everybody had the same
tastes and opinions on everything, and there would be no more arguments
throughout the world.
--
am
laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
>
>> I'm against the language borders and country borders, which are
>> difficult to cross. When there's just one country, there's no border,
>> there's no need to have armies just in case of a war with some other
>> country.
>
> While we're at it, we could make it so that everybody had the same
> tastes and opinions on everything, and there would be no more
> arguments throughout the world.
I don't want a war. Do you? Being different or having a different opinion is
OK, but what's bad in not having wars and armies for them? Most people would
be against any kind of war resulting in injuries and deaths. Wouldn't they?
Alex
António Marques
There's these people who think having a different country and / or a
different language is ok.
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
Christopher Culver wrote:
>
> In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
Bullshit, Culver.
It's no different than two Latinos speaking Spanish to their little
darlings in the middle of Iowa, with said LDs going to school where
only English is used. They'll learn both languages, perhaps the
non-familial English better.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Larisa wrote:
>
> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
> mutually comprehensible.
Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
nowadays.
E-0 may change in 1000 years but it won't spawn x-number of daughter
languages like PIE did.
Ruud Harmsen
<drm...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>Larisa wrote:
>>
>> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
>> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
>> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
>> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
>> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
>> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
>> mutually comprehensible.
>
>Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
>ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
>distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
>nowadays.
There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
>E-0 may change in 1000 years but it won't spawn x-number of daughter
>languages like PIE did.
Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
Christopher Culver
> Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
> someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Christopher Culver wrote:
> >
> > In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> > movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> > should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
>
> Bullshit, Culver.
> It's no different than two Latinos speaking Spanish to their little
> darlings in the middle of Iowa, with said LDs going to school where
> only English is used. They'll learn both languages, perhaps the
> non-familial English better.
Look, dimwit's back, with all its idiotic attitude intact, and with,
moreover, no clue regarding the Esperanto community!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> 30 Mar 2006 20:06:49 -0800: "dmitri mosier/iowa city ia"
> <drm...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>
> >Larisa wrote:
> >>
> >> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
> >> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
> >> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
> >> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
> >> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
> >> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
> >> mutually comprehensible.
> >
> >Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
> >ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
> >distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
> >nowadays.
>
> There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
> between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
> grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
> thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
> and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
>
Hasn't it been shown, though, that all those differences reached their
height just before the advent of globalized communications and that
since said advent the pendulum has started swinging back the other way?
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
> If you can contribute nothing to the discussion other than lame,
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
Peter T. Daniels
>
> > 30 Mar 2006 20:06:49 -0800: "dmitri mosier/iowa city ia"
> > There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
> > between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
> > grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
> > thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
> > and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
> >
>
> Hasn't it been shown, though, that all those differences reached their
> height just before the advent of globalized communications and that
> since said advent the pendulum has started swinging back the other way?
Who do you think "showed" that? Where?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
Look who's talking!
mb
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
> immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
The American plural is "add hominy"
phog...@abo.fi
Christopher Culver wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen <realemail...@rudhar.com.invalid> writes:
> > Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
> > someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
>
> What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
> in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
> international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
> enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
I guess it will go on much like it used to. Esperanto will probably be
spoken among a band of followers, English will give way to some other
major language - Spanish, Portuguese, Hindi, Japanese, Chinese, or a
descendant of some of these. Your guess is as good as mine. In Africa,
minor languages will probably give way to regional lingua francas such
as Swahili and Sango. Out there, new languages will evolve as koinés
of mutually related dialects and languages (much in the way Swahili
evolved). Artistic conlangs comparable with Klingon and Quenya might
for idealistic reasons acquire communities of habitual, even native
speakers. It is not ruled out that some or one of these will acquire
significant importance in international communication, if it comes with
an attractive ideological package. It is also not ruled out that
Esperanto will become more important.
I do not share your antipathy towards Esperanto, but I am not an
Esperanto enthusiast either. I am rather neutral about it as a
language. I think it is a nice conlang, and as good a candidate for an
international auxlang as any. I have learnt its basics, but am usually
too busy with natural languages to take the trouble of becoming fluent.
phog...@abo.fi
Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
> > Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> >
> >
> >> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
> >> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
> >
> > I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> > imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> > any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> > languages ridiculous.
>
> The three mentioned languages were invented,
FYI, Coptic is not an invented language. It is an Afro-Asiatic
language, the daughter language of ancient Egyptian, written in a
Greek-based alphabet rather reminiscent of Cyrillic, and including a
heavy admixture of Greek loanwords.
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
...
>> The three mentioned languages were invented,
>
> FYI, Coptic is not an invented language.
I know, I was referring to Esperanto, Lojban and Klingon.
Alex
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
question instead of a statement.
Surely you're a good enough linguist to have picked up that particular
nuance?
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Oh, now, there's a stunning rebuke!
Can't admit to your own bad behavior so you have to resort to the "but
mommy, he did it too!!!" shtick, eh Petey?
Herman Rubin
<news13...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
>> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
>> > Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
................
>25-member European Union is set towards becoming one country like the
>50-member United States of America. Language diversity is the
>foundation of both the EU and the US.
Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
largely for older immigrants in the past.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Peter T. Daniels
That sort of question in the negative is typically an assertion.
You are claiming to have read that somewhere, though you don't remember
quite where. But I rather doubt that you ever have read that anywhere,
at least not in the writings of people who seriously study language
change. William Labov, who investigates this sort of question, says the
opposite.
So, where do you think you might have seen it?
Alexei A. Frounze
> Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
> not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
> schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
> largely for older immigrants in the past.
I know a number of Russians here in the US, who had been born in the US or
came to the country at a very little age and they don't speak Russian well.
A few months back I saw a little boy and his dad at a supermarket. The dad
would speak Russian to the kid but the kid would always speak English back.
IMO, it sucks when you can't speak the same language with your family
members. I guess the language problem is still pretty much the problem of
immigrants. They're not prohibited to speak either language where
appropriate but they're not supported in learning the new language or the
language of parents.
Alex
Herman Rubin
>Alex
It is more than that. Until recently, most immigrants
decided that they should be American, not hyphenated
American, and this meant that their children should
grow up linguistically as American, but retaining those
aspects of their culture which they thought worthwhile.
My parents would not use any language other than English
at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
idea that the children should not be adept in English
was not at all common.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
disagrees with the Great Peter Daniels?
Your arrogance continues to astound me with its scope.
pluto
wrote/and/or quoted:
"
>Herman Rubin wrote:
>> Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
>> not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
>> schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
>> largely for older immigrants in the past.
yes, herman rubin,
i have candp here in scm, scs, sct:
>>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
>>>Newsgroups: soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.thai,soc.culture.singapore
>>>Subject: The Mandarin Offensive
>>>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:48:19 +0800
>>>Organization: FJC Inc
>>>Message-ID: <05vn229la4sip8ttr...@4ax.com>
>>>Issue 14.04 - April 2006
>>>The Mandarin Offensive
>>>Inside Beijing's global campaign to make Chinese the number one language in
>>>the world.
>>>By Michael ErardPage 1 of 2 next »
>>>A light snow is falling outside the windows of Cyrus H. McCormick School in
>>>southwest Chicago, but the second graders in Room 203 are not distracted
>>>from their lesson. May Cheung, an energetic teacher from Hong Kong, holds a
>>>cup to her lips and asks, "Wo he shemma?" (What am I drinking?) A forest of
>>>arms go up. "Cha! Cha!" (Tea!) An hour later, Cheung has kindergartners
>>>counting to 27 in Mandarin as she hands out Chinese New Year hong bao, the
>>>red envelopes that promise wealth, abundance, and good fortune. For most of
>>>the kids in this Mexican-American neighborhood, Mandarin is their third
>>>language - after Spanish and English.
>>>The children at McCormick are part of the largest grade school Chinese
>>>program in the US. Seven years ago, after a post-college stint teaching
>>>English in China, Robert Davis wandered into the offices of the Chicago
>>>Public Schools and convinced the director to start a comprehensive Chinese
>>>language program and hire him to manage it. Now 3,500 Chicago kids, from
>>>kindergartners to 12th graders, learn Mandarin. "The days of everybody
>>>trying to be American are over," Davis says. "When you do business with or
>>>go to other countries, be prepared to work on their terms."
>>>Far from Chicago - 6,597 miles to the west, to be exact - Ma Jianfei is
>>>pointing at a huge map on the wall of a plush meeting room in an otherwise
>>>dreary building in Beijing. Ma is the deputy director general of the
>>>National Office for Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language, better known as
>>>Hanban, and the map chronicles his success exporting Mandarin around the
>>>world. The map shows that the hottest markets for Mandarin are Thailand and
>>>South Korea, where all elementary and middle schools will offer Chinese by
>>>2007. Europe, particularly France and Germany, is also doing well, thick
>>>with yellow circles (teachers), red triangles (test facilities), and blue
>>>squares (language centers).
>>>There aren't many shapes in the US yet, but Ma is working on that. For the
>>>past two years, Hanban has been collaborating with the College Board, the
>>>nonprofit that runs the SAT and the Advanced Placement program; in 2007,
>>>high school kids across the US will be able to take the first ever AP exam
>>>for Chinese language and culture (this year they're prepping for the test
>>>in new College Board-accredited classes). In October, Ma was in the
>>>American heartland, inking an agreement to open a Confucius Institute, a
>>>center for Chinese language learning and cultural studies, at the
>>>University of Kansas. It'll be the sixth in the US, the 41st in the world.
>>>Soon there will be 100 such institutes worldwide.
>>>Mandarin Chinese is already the most popular first language on the planet,
>>>beating out English by 500 million speakers. And it's the
>>>second-most-common language on the Internet. Now, just as China requires
>>>students to learn English, Beijing wants to make Chinese the must-take
>>>language for English speakers - and everyone else. Ma figures there are
>>>currently 30 million people around the world learning Chinese as a second
>>>language. Hanban aims to increase that to 100 million over the next four
>>>years.
>>>It's an audacious goal, and the government is backing it by funding - to
>>>the tune of nearly $25 million a year - the teaching of Chinese as a
>>>foreign language. Last year, Hanban sent 1,042 volunteer teachers to
>>>France, Kazakhstan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Mauritius, Nigeria, Colombia,
>>>and 16 other countries. This year, it will top that number.
>>>Hanban provides schools, centers, and Confucius Institutes with seed money,
>>>textbooks, and game-based learning software. College kids and adults play
>>>Great Wall Chinese, while middle school students get a game called Chengo
>>>Chinese, which Hanban developed through a partnership with the US
>>>Department of Education. Nearly 15,000 American kids in 20 states helped
>>>beta-test the game, and it's now used in Mandarin classes offered through
>>>the accredited Michigan Virtual High School.
>>>Beijing isn't doing anything different from what the British or the
>>>Americans or the French have done - sending emissaries abroad to spread its
>>>language and culture. It's not the first time the Chinese have pushed their
>>>native tongue, either: In the 17th and 18th centuries, imperial China
>>>brought several Chinese languages to much of Southeast Asia. But this
>>>21st-century push is more global in scope, as befits an emerging world
>>>power. "This is the linguistic equivalent of sending a person to the moon,"
>>>says Oded Shenkar, a professor at the Ohio State University and author of
>>>The Chinese Century.
>>>Chinese bureaucrats take their evangelism seriously. The country is
>>>"merging into the world," Zhang Xinsheng, China's deputy minister of
>>>education, explained to reporters before the first World Chinese Conference
>>>last June. The event attracted diplomats and teachers from 65 countries -
>>>all there to partake in China's efforts to export Mandarin. "China, as the
>>>mother country of the language, shoulders the responsibility of promoting
>>>[the language] and helping other nations to learn it better and faster."
>>>Chinese authorities also see spreading Chinese as an important part of the
>>>country's "peaceful rise," says Elizabeth Economy, the director for Asia
>>>Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, a New York foreign-policy
>>>think tank. This was the philosophy articulated in 2003 by China's
>>>president, Hu Jintao. China wants to emerge as a global power without
>>>threatening global security. "I think the Chinese have been very careful
>>>and thoughtful about assuaging the fears of the rest of the world," says
>>>Economy. "There's a benign element of the language work: to help educate."
>>>One of the people most responsible for providing that help is Zhang Yi.
>>>Over the past three years, she's been to South Africa, Thailand, Japan, and
>>>Canada on business - not bad for a 24-year-old government employee. Trained
>>>as a lawyer, she coordinates Hanban's volunteer teacher program, selecting,
>>>training, sending, and supporting the agency's pool of 10,000-plus
>>>volunteer instructors. Like missionaries, these full-time teachers receive
>>>no pay, only a small stipend from Hanban. Most are young women who sign on
>>>to see the world - and sow the seeds of Chinese along the way.
>>> Page 1 of 2 next »
>>>As a young cosmopolitan Beijinger, Zhang Yi celebrates Christmas and
>>>prefers coffee over tea, so when we meet one frigid evening in Haidian
>>>(China's Silicon Valley), she picks Starbucks. Zhang marvels at the
>>>remarkable popularity of her native language outside China - it's something
>>>European newspapers like to call "Chinese fever," or hanyu re. Zhang sees
>>>evidence of Chinese fever all the time. In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
>>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
>>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese. She recently had dinner with three
>>>professors from Beijing who had just been in Cuba, where they met students
>>>who were learning Chinese. Zhang is delighted to see the language taking
>>>hold in all these places. "That's why we are feeding the fire," she says.
>>>Back in Chicago, Robert Davis is fanning the flames, but he isn't asking
>>>for volunteers. He wants teachers who'll stay, not leave after a year or
>>>two. So Hanban gave him $70,000 to build a Confucius Institute at Walter
>>>Payton College Prep; it also sends him free software and books. This
>>>spring, the new institute will begin providing grade school instructors
>>>with teaching materials and lesson plans, and it will offer how-to seminars
>>>for parents who want to help their kids with Chinese homework.
>>>If Hanban exports Chinese around the world, then the main American importer
>>>is Gaston Caperton. He looks like Bill Clinton - though thinner - and
>>>speaks, once he gets talking, with an unchecked southern accent.
>>>Caperton caught his own version of Chinese fever on his third visit to the
>>>country in 1994, when he was governor of West Virginia and traveling to
>>>China as part of an international trade mission. Expecting to return to the
>>>raw, poor country he'd seen in the 1980s, he instead found people drinking
>>>Coca-Cola and using computers, and the hotel was as lavish as any in the
>>>West.
>>>Normally you'd find him in New York at the College Board, where he's
>>>president and unofficial promoter for Chinese-language education. But ever
>>>since the AP Chinese course was established, he's been on the road, trying
>>>to solve the shortage of qualified Chinese teachers in the US by prodding
>>>American universities to offer certification programs and persuading
>>>elementary schools and colleges stateside to offer more Chinese language
>>>classes. He's recently been in Beijing, meeting with Hanban officials about
>>>their volunteer-teacher program. But today he's in Shanghai with his wife,
>>>Idit Harel Caperton. She spent the fall teaching software engineering at a
>>>university here and is a consultant and major investor (along with MIT's
>>>Nicholas Negroponte) in a language software company based in China.
>>>The College Board is among the few organizations that can have national
>>>impact in a public school system where most decisions are made at the local
>>>level. So Gaston Caperton hopes that the Chinese AP will spur interest in
>>>the language in high schools - and even trickle down to elementary schools.
>>>"The future is in Asia, and we have to know Asian languages," he says. The
>>>point is to keep the US competitive. Learning Chinese isn't just a way for
>>>Americans to get jobs in China, but for them to do business with Chinese
>>>companies and compete with Mandarin speakers from other countries.
>>>Hanban contacted Caperton in 2004. At first, the Chinese government was
>>>frustrated by the fragmented US public school system. "They said to me, 'In
>>>China, we made English the second language,'" Caperton says. "'So why don't
>>>you just make it happen in the US?'"
>>>Caperton is working to spread Chinese however he can. After becoming
>>>president of the College Board in 1999, he urged the organization to offer
>>>courses and exams in more languages. Given the importance of standardized
>>>tests, decisions by the College Board inevitably filter down to high
>>>schools and even elementary schools. Hanban also wanted to import the
>>>curriculum they'd developed directly into US schools. But Caperton
>>>persuaded them to abandon their one-size-fits-all approach. The Chinese
>>>were "aggressive" about helping, he says. After speaking for a few moments,
>>>Caperton backtracks and changes aggressive to progressive. What's the
>>>difference? "Progressive is moving forward and up. Aggressive is simply
>>>getting what you want."
>>>Alexander Feldman saw this behavior firsthand when, as the US government's
>>>coordinator for international information programs, he was touring a new
>>>library at the State Institute for Islamic Studies of North Sumatera in
>>>Indonesia. On the third floor, an "American corner" was stocked with books,
>>>magazines, and computers with Internet access. Feldman suggested to the
>>>university's chancellor that videoconference equipment be installed in the
>>>empty space next to the corner. That's a good idea, the chancellor said.
>>>But about a month after the American corner was built, the Chinese were
>>>here and proposed a Chinese corner, which would sit right next to yours and
>>>have more resources than yours, he said. "There is a bit of friendly
>>>competition," Feldman mused later. "Competition is a good thing, both in
>>>business and in public diplomacy."
>>>Michael Erard (er...@lucidwork.com) wrote about kosher tech in issue 12.11.
>>> « back Page 2 of 2
>>> Wired Staff | Advertising | Subscribe | Reprints | Customer Service
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>>>This article is copyrighted material, the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.
>>>=========================end, and/or end quote================
>>>-pluto
>
>I know a number of Russians here in the US, who had been born in the US or
>came to the country at a very little age and they don't speak Russian well.
>A few months back I saw a little boy and his dad at a supermarket. The dad
>would speak Russian to the kid but the kid would always speak English back.
>IMO, it sucks when you can't speak the same language with your family
>members. I guess the language problem is still pretty much the problem of
>immigrants. They're not prohibited to speak either language where
>appropriate but they're not supported in learning the new language or the
>language of parents.
>
>Alex
yes, alexi, it looks sounds a bit "ridiculous" isnt it? It is not unusual
to see/hear in malaysia couples of different races speaking to each other
in their own tongues and yet they seem to understand each other !
There was a thread on esperanto here and some dialogues on the usefulness
as a universal language.
Personally, i doubt esperanto would replace all the major languges in the
world for nationalistic and practical reasons. Which nation would abandon
her national language for esperanto? Esperanto is a totally new language
altogether. How can it replace say, english, french, spanish and chinese,
the languages used in the UN for example?
Now, here is one episode i like to share with everyone to advise me:
When i was about 9, i saw and heard my mother "reading" the english version
of King James Bible, St john from the "latin vademecum" I know my mother
knew nothing of the english language, yet from the "latin vademecum" she
read distintively and flawlessly the english passages. Of course she did
not understand a single word of what she read. But when she placed the
chinese version of the same bible together, she understood what she was
reading.
I was amazed that this "latin vademecum" could be the elixir to all the
language reading/learning/understanding. Basically the "latin vademecum" is
a small book of some 90 english/french/german charaters with consonants and
vowels. Any language can be "translated" into the "latin scripts" and
anyone knowing this latin vademecum, could read effortlessly. To understand
what is read is to align the native version to the "latin" .
Alas, i have searched some 40 years now for this book, popularly found in
penang, baptist churches, gospel halls..... ,Externally, the "latin
vademecum" looks like a micro thin new testament.
Where can i find this book?
Does anyone know what i am talking about ? !! ;-)
=========================end, and/or end quote================
-pluto
mb
Herman Rubin wrote:
....
> My parents would not use any language other than English
> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> was not at all common.
mb
Herman Rubin wrote:
....
> My parents would not use any language other than English
> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> was not at all common.
Bob LeChevalier
>Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
>not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
>schools which used other languages,
There were public schools that were taught ENTIRELY in other
languages, especially German, up until around WWI. If that isn't
"encouraging diversity", I don't know what is.
lojbab
Peter T. Daniels
>
> IOW, either I'm lying or where I read it is not reputable because it
> disagrees with the Great Peter Daniels?
> Your arrogance continues to astound me with its scope.
No, because it disagrees with the Great William Labov.
Your ignorance combined with the lack of content of your postings
continues to astound all educated readers of sci.lang.
Peter T. Daniels
Guess what. Cultural imperialism is dead. (Or should be.)
Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
> care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
We'll stop cross posting when you do, petey-boy
Peter T. Daniels
>
>
> >
> > Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
> > care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
> We'll stop cross posting when you do, petey-boy
So you're in a.l.a., dimwit?
Herman Rubin
mb <azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Not all immigrants did this, but large numbers did, ...
azyt...@hotmail.com
Herman Rubin wrote:
> In article <1143934705....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> mb <azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> My parents would not use any language other than English
> >> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> >> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> >> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> >> was not at all common.
>
> >What exactly does that last sentence mean?
>
> Not all immigrants did this, but large numbers did, ...
>
Continue, please.
Herman Rubin
<azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Continue, please.
Most immigrants wanted their children to grow up to be
primarily Americans. even if they themselves maintained
the "old country" language or associations. The only
"foreign" language at my elementary school was Pig Latin;
is that strictly American?
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
Ah! I agree! But how few do? So sad!
*+-Diversity *is* good. Absense of the common language is bad.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
ypark
>>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
he knew written chinese(hanja).
That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
about chinese grammar.
He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
Y. Park
calm_weather
ypark wrote:
> > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
>
> That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> he knew written chinese(hanja).
Your interpretaion is wrong reread the quote below from pluto's
message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
traveller could speak Chinese.
> That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
> about chinese grammar.
> He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
>
>
>
> Y. Park
The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
learn more English grammar.
##minty.
>>>As a young cosmopolitan Beijinger, Zhang Yi celebrates Christmas and
>>>prefers coffee over tea, so when we meet one frigid evening in Haidian
>>>(China's Silicon Valley), she picks Starbucks. Zhang marvels at the
>>>remarkable popularity of her native language outside China - it's something
>>>European newspapers like to call "Chinese fever," or hanyu re. Zhang sees
>>>evidence of Chinese fever all the time. In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
ypark
calm_weather wrote:
> ypark wrote:
> > > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> > >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
> >
> > That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> > he knew written chinese(hanja).
>
> Your interpretaion is wrong
It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
poster.
I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
English.
I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
>reread the quote below from pluto's
> message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> traveller could speak Chinese.
> The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> learn more English grammar.
Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
Go fuck yourself, chinky.
Y. Park
calm_weather
ypark wrote:
> calm_weather wrote:
> > ypark wrote:
> > > > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> > > >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > > > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > > > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
> > >
> > > That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> > > he knew written chinese(hanja).
> >
> > Your interpretaion is wrong
>
> It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
> poster.
No, it depends your your ability to comprehend what you have read.
>
> I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
> English.
> I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
Irrelevant.
>
> >reread the quote below from pluto's
> > message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> > Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> > traveller could speak Chinese.
> > The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> > learn more English grammar.
>
>
> Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
Laughing at yourself is considered a sign of madness.
>
> Go fuck yourself, chinky.
I don't know where you got the latter from.
>
>
> Y. Park
Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
your parents proud.
I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
##minty..
ypark
> > It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
> > poster.
>
> No, it depends your your ability to comprehend what you have read.
>
> >
> > I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
> > English.
> > I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
>
> Irrelevant.
Terse and stern.... so you imagine. Hahaha
It is about as corny as geeks' uttering "negative" everytime in order
to sound more "logical".
>
> >
> > >reread the quote below from pluto's
> > > message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> > > Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> > > traveller could speak Chinese.
> > > The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> > > learn more English grammar.
> >
> >
> > Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
>
> Laughing at yourself is considered a sign of madness.
>
> >
> > Go fuck yourself, chinky.
>
> I don't know where you got the latter from.
"She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady..."
What else could you be? You are exhibiting exactly the same pattern
of grammatical errors as the thread-starter.
And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
your buddy P Daniels.
> Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
> your parents proud.
You know.... you should not smack-talk in ESL.
>
> I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
But you are quite good at implosive self-fucking which is possible
only with dicks less than an inch long. That is what I suggested to
you.
Y. Park
calm_weather
For the benefit of an utter idiot like you, here's your message of
Wednesday April 12
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/203b438e43ac3a13?dmode=source
ypark wrote:
> > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
>
> That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> he knew written chinese(hanja).
> That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
> about chinese grammar.
> He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
>
>
>
> Y. Park
You criticised someone else's grasp of chinese grammar, yet your
English grammar or comprehension is lacking.
The extract from the original article was about the actress Zhang Yi.
By the very use of 'actress' any reader should have known that she was
a woman, and the appropriate pronoun should have been used. Why do you
consider her to be 'he'?
>
> And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
> your buddy P Daniels.
This is about your hypocrisy, Y. Park.
>
> > Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
> > your parents proud.
>
> You know.... you should not smack-talk in ESL.
>
> >
> > I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
>
> But you are quite good at implosive self-fucking which is possible
> only with dicks less than an inch long. That is what I suggested to
> you.
>
>
> Y. Park
How lame. You ought to talk to sukgeun jung, your fellow korean
transvestite, as neither of you can tell gender difference.
##minty..
ypark
calm_weather wrote:
> You criticised someone else's grasp of chinese grammar,
???????????!??!!!!!!!!?????!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!?!!???????????
>yet your English grammar or comprehension is lacking.
>
> The extract from the original article was about the actress Zhang Yi.
> By the very use of 'actress' any reader should have known that she was
> a woman, and the appropriate pronoun should have been used. Why do you
> consider her to be 'he'?
>
> >
> > And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
> > your buddy P Daniels.
>
> This is about your hypocrisy, Y. Park.
This chinky is obviously hurt.
It's FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
I doubt anyone eles is confused here but by "he", I meant the Korean
traveler. I certainly was not criticzing the Korean traveler in
anyway. I was merely poking fun at the misplaced ethnic pride of the
Chinese posters.
And no, there is no chinese program in Korean middle schools possibly
except some specialized ones. It is rather clear that the "article"
confuses chinese characters with Chinese as a language. The former is
taught and the latter is not, possibly except as an optional secondary
foreign language in high school.
Y. Park
P.S. Please continue to entertain us with your Chinglish.
Philipp Strathausen
news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> Church.
You should have a look at how the Jewish community has started to revive
Hebrew again, about one hundred years ago, and how they managed to create
new words for daily life, only by using root letters with a similar meaning
from the Bible. Very impressive. Even until today Hebrew has successfully
maintained its unique character. They don't even use the word "computer",
but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
machine" :-) )
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
> What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
> in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
> international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
> enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
Well, somehow Mandarin is more likely to be this new babel-language :-)
But Spanish still has a chance...
Philipp
news13...@hotmail.com
Very true in the case of Mandarin, which is the fastest growing
language and necessary for business oppurtunity. But why do you say
Spanish still has a chance?
news13...@hotmail.com
Philipp Strathausen tulis:
> Hello.
>
> news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> > Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> > most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> > unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> > language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> > language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> > Church.
>
> You should have a look at how the Jewish community has started to revive
> Hebrew again, about one hundred years ago, and how they managed to create
> new words for daily life, only by using root letters with a similar meaning
> from the Bible.
I will take your advise :) I can see already Hebrew is a good example
of a dead language brought back to life and in fact it is quite similar
to Coptic as both were liturgical languages. Also, being a Semitic
language, Hebrew has an advantage for every word in its lexicon derives
from a three consonant root, and so there is a lot of room for new
words.
> Very impressive.
Has anyone on alt.language.artificial created a semitic language
before? If yes, what was your experience? Semitic languages usually
have three consonant roots, for example S-L-M and suppose we have 5
vowels (a,e,i,o,u) so 5X5X5X5 = 625 words can be coined from S-L-M.
> Even until today Hebrew has successfully maintained its unique character.
> They don't even use the word "computer",
> but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
> machine" :-) )
>
Hebrew has been very successful since it does not borrow words (ie loan
words) from other languages like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
Arabic. Borrowing of words creates a creol. To be a unique people with
a unique identity one needs a unique language and a standards body, ie
Hebrew Language Academy.
In fact, if Coptic nationalism were to be successful, we should emulate
the Jews by not using Arabic words at all for Arabic is related to the
Islamic ideology. Like the Jews who set up a Hebrew Language Academy,
we should set up a Coptic Language Academy to standardise the Egyptian
language.
Lee Sau Dan
news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
news13102005> Arabic.
What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
Nonsense! You've presented a necessary condition as though it were a
sufficient one. Maybe, you need some lessons on logic.
English has borrowed lots of words. Does that make English a creol?
In the Japanese lexicon, around 10% (or even fewer) of the words are
native Japanese. Others are borrowed. So, Japanese must be a creol?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Ruud Harmsen
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
>In the Japanese lexicon, around 10% (or even fewer) of the words are
>native Japanese. Others are borrowed. So, Japanese must be a creol?
That's one of the theories, yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language_classification
===
As for its relation to other languages, there are several theories,
presented in descending order of probability:
[3 theories skipped; RH]
Creole hypothesis
Japanese is a creole language. Phonological similarities and
geographical proximity to Austronesian languages have led to the
theory that Japanese may be a kind of creole, with an Altaic
substratum and an Austronesian superstratum, or vice versa. However,
different scholars have come up with lists of proposed
Japanese-Austronesian cognates that do not agree with each other. This
is a bad sign, because different scholars, working independently,
should come up with similar results. Furthermore, the number of words
possibly identified as Austronesian is extremely small.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
And this is why postings on artificial languages ("conlangs") are
unwelcome at sci.lang, a newsgroup devoted to linguistics. Not to
mention the scattershot selection of newsgroups it's crossposted to --
is there any hope of finding out where it originated?
> Philipp Strathausen tulis:
> > Hello.
> >
> > news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> > > Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> > > most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> > > unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> > > language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> > > language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> > > Church.
> >
> > You should have a look at how the Jewish community has started to revive
> > Hebrew again, about one hundred years ago, and how they managed to create
> > new words for daily life, only by using root letters with a similar meaning
> > from the Bible.
>
> I will take your advise :) I can see already Hebrew is a good example
> of a dead language brought back to life and in fact it is quite similar
> to Coptic as both were liturgical languages. Also, being a Semitic
> language, Hebrew has an advantage for every word in its lexicon derives
> from a three consonant root, and so there is a lot of room for new
> words.
1. Hebrew was never a dead language. It was in continual use for some
two millennia after it was no longer anyone's native language, and over
those two millennia, new vocabulary items continually entered the
language as new concepts and realia entered the world.
The only achievement of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda's parents was to make him
into the first native speaker of Hebrew in two millennia. In the
process, they deprived Hebrew of its Classical syntactic and
phonological structures, retaining only the morphology and a great deal
of lexicon.
2. Likewise, Coptic has never died, but its users have never felt the
need to try speaking it in the modern world.
3. It is not the case that "every word in its lexicon derives from a
three consonant root." Not even "the vast majority of words."
> > Very impressive.
>
> Has anyone on alt.language.artificial created a semitic language
> before? If yes, what was your experience? Semitic languages usually
> have three consonant roots, for example S-L-M and suppose we have 5
> vowels (a,e,i,o,u) so 5X5X5X5 = 625 words can be coined from S-L-M.
No one can "create" a Semitic language. The Semitic language family
already exists, and if present speech communities divide up and fall out
of communiation with each other, new Semitic languages will arise.
Clearly you know nothing of Semitic word formation, and the source of
"625" is utterly opaque.
> > Even until today Hebrew has successfully maintained its unique character.
> > They don't even use the word "computer",
> > but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
> > machine" :-) )
> >
>
> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not borrow words (ie loan
> words) from other languages like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
> Arabic. Borrowing of words creates a creol. To be a unique people with
> a unique identity one needs a unique language and a standards body, ie
> Hebrew Language Academy.
You don't know what "creol[e]" means, and you have never looked in a
Hebrew (etymological) dictionary.
The vast majority of "unique people"s with "unique identity" and a
"unique language" have nothing at all resembling the Hebrew Language
Academy. (Which, incidentally, in Israel is treated as a joke -- no one
pays any attention to its pronouncements, except state-run radio, which
is obligated to.)
> In fact, if Coptic nationalism were to be successful, we should emulate
> the Jews by not using Arabic words at all for Arabic is related to the
> Islamic ideology. Like the Jews who set up a Hebrew Language Academy,
> we should set up a Coptic Language Academy to standardise the Egyptian
> language.
Aha! Now we see what your political agenda is. Talk about putting the
cart before the horse!!
Wherever did you get the idea that there are no Arabic-origin words in
Modern Hebrew?
Logan Kearsley
news:87irnro...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
> >>>>> "news13102005" == news13102005 <news13...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
> news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
> news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
> news13102005> Arabic.
>
> What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
>
>
> news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
>
> Nonsense! You've presented a necessary condition as though it were a
> sufficient one. Maybe, you need some lessons on logic.
>
> English has borrowed lots of words. Does that make English a creol?
Not for just that reason (it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, as
you say), but yes, Modern English is a creole.
> In the Japanese lexicon, around 10% (or even fewer) of the words are
> native Japanese. Others are borrowed. So, Japanese must be a creol?
-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.
me
> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not borrow words (ie loan
> words) from other languages like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
> Arabic. Borrowing of words creates a creol.
Then, Hebrew is a creole. What's a telephone called in Hebrew?
Philipp Strathausen
Spanish is growing in the USA. Spanish speaking people already represent the
largest minority in the USA, and AFAIK it still is the third most spoken
language in the world, and who knows, maybe they'll make lots of
children... ;-) Honestly it's actually just my hoping. I like Spanish.
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
>>>>>> "news13102005" == news13102005 <news13...@hotmail.com> writes:
> news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
> news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
> news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
> news13102005> Arabic.
> What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
Tea is just "te" and silk "meshi", which sounds not very Arabic to me.
Anyway, one has taken also words from Arabic, I assume it's not because of
the academy, but in Israel are living 20% Arabs at least.
Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than does
for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer" instead of
the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very consequent in not
borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
> news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
> Nonsense! You've presented a necessary condition as though it were a
> sufficient one. Maybe, you need some lessons on logic.
I agree. But in case of such "young" languages like the new Hebrew or Coptic
may be, there is a danger this language might lose its character. It hasn't
been spoken at all for a long time and can't absorb a large amount of
foreign words.
Philipp
Lee Sau Dan
news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or Arabic.
>> What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
Philipp> Tea is just "te"
This word traces its origin to Chinese. Hebrew may have imported it
as a second-hand loan from neighbouring languages. But in any case,
it's a borrowed word.
Philipp> and silk "meshi",
The "shi" part also suggests a Chinese origin. Again, it may have
been a second-hand loan. But a loan is a loan.
Philipp> which sounds not very Arabic to me.
Arabic is not the only available and possible source of borrowing for
Hebrew.
Philipp> Anyway, one has taken also words from Arabic, I assume
Philipp> it's not because of the academy, but in Israel are living
Philipp> 20% Arabs at least.
So, Hebrew does have borrowed words. That's what I want to ascertain,
so as to refute news13102005's ungrounded claim.
Philipp> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but
Philipp> far less than does for example German. E.g. in German, we
Philipp> generally use "computer" instead of the German equivalent
Philipp> "Rechner".
Chinese is also relunctant to borrowing. And even if there is a loan,
the loan may eventually get replaced by newly coined word from native
roots. We have witness many examples in the past 2 centuries:
telephone -- once borrowed phonetically according to Shanghainese,
can't escape the fate of being replaced by "electric speech" (c.f.
German "Fernsprecher"). "Democracy" and "science", once borrowed
phonetically according to Mandarin, sound just too odd and
unintelligible. So, they soon got replaced by "folk lead" and
"subject learn". "Computer" has never been loaned. In PRC, they
translated it as "calculating machine" (c.f. German "Rechner"), but
people in HK and Taiwan like the more imaginative coinage: "electric
brain". In Cantonese, the older generation may still like to use the
phonetically borrowed terms "insurance" and "(postage) stamp". But I
didn't know these forms natively. I learnt them. I acquired natively
the more common, native words for these concepts: "cover risk" and
"postage ticket".
Philipp> Hebrew has been very consequent in not borrowing words,
Philipp> compared to other languages I know.
How does it compare to Chinese?
Dr. Joel M. Hoffman
news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
news13102005> Arabic.
On the contrary. Borrowing has been a productive source of new words
in Modern Hebrew. (Even the name of the official Israeli organziation
in charge of the purity of Hebrew has a foreign name: the AKADEMYA.)
I address the issue of MH vocabulary briefly in my NYU book (now in
paperback) _In the Beginning_, though the basic facts are well known.
news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
Of course it doesn't. In the case of Hebrew, though, borrowing did
significantly alter the standard phonology, a fact which I address in:
http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman/Publicaitons/IATL13.pdf
Basically, the loan words helped to destroy an otherwise systematic
morphological alternation, with the result that the altnernation is no
longer systematic even in non-loan words.
-Joel M. Hoffman, PhD
http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman
Ruud Harmsen
sci.lang:
>news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
>
>Of course it doesn't. In the case of Hebrew, though, borrowing did
>significantly alter the standard phonology, a fact which I address in:
>
> http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman/Publicaitons/IATL13.pdf
http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman/Publications/IATL13.pdf
Philipp Strathausen
> Arabic is not the only available and possible source of borrowing for
> Hebrew.
I know. Sometimes even they just took an ancient Greek word, or, which I
found quite a nice idea, they took the consonants from a word
like "telephone" and made it to "letalfen" which means "to phone", but
looks quite Hebrew at a first glance. Another one is "letahnen" for "to
plan" (derived from "technic", I assume) Anyway, these words just fit.
(As far as I know, four-root-letter-words have been around in Hebrew already
for some time before...)
> Philipp> Anyway, one has taken also words from Arabic, I assume
> Philipp> it's not because of the academy, but in Israel are living
> Philipp> 20% Arabs at least.
> So, Hebrew does have borrowed words. That's what I want to ascertain,
> so as to refute news13102005's ungrounded claim.
Of course. I don't have anything against borrowing words. Once German used
to borrow words in a nice way as well. A good example is "satt" which is
much shorter than, lets say, the English version "saturated".
Today, people just take the English word whenever they have the choice, just
to feel important or to get the impression to be somehow international. All
those IT or economy magazines are horribly overloaded by anglicisms. In
fact, most Germans don't really like their language.
Ridiculously those anglicisms makes us use the original English words in a
wrong way, and I'm sure, I do so as well ;-)
> Philipp> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but
> Philipp> far less than does for example German. E.g. in German, we
> Philipp> generally use "computer" instead of the German equivalent
> Philipp> "Rechner".
> Chinese is also relunctant to borrowing. And even if there is a loan,
> the loan may eventually get replaced by newly coined word from native
> roots.
For a German word there is no way to survive against an English one. I just
keep using the German words as long as it makes sense and doesn't sound
too "odd" ;-)
> We have witness many examples in the past 2 centuries:
> telephone -- once borrowed phonetically according to Shanghainese,
> can't escape the fate of being replaced by "electric speech" (c.f.
> German "Fernsprecher"). "Democracy" and "science", once borrowed
> phonetically according to Mandarin, sound just too odd and
> unintelligible. So, they soon got replaced by "folk lead" and
> "subject learn". "Computer" has never been loaned. In PRC, they
> translated it as "calculating machine" (c.f. German "Rechner"), but
> people in HK and Taiwan like the more imaginative coinage: "electric
> brain". In Cantonese, the older generation may still like to use the
> phonetically borrowed terms "insurance" and "(postage) stamp". But I
> didn't know these forms natively. I learnt them. I acquired natively
> the more common, native words for these concepts: "cover risk" and
> "postage ticket".
Well, now that you remind me, a Chinese friend actually told me about
that...
BTW, do you use some kind of software to make your text look so nice
formatted?
> Philipp> Hebrew has been very consequent in not borrowing words,
> Philipp> compared to other languages I know.
> How does it compare to Chinese?
You make me envy!! :-)
Philipp
phog...@abo.fi
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> The only achievement of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda's parents was to make him
> into the first native speaker of Hebrew in two millennia.
FYI: Eliezer Ben Yehuda was not the first native speaker. His son was.
His name was Itamar Ben Avi.
Dr. Joel M. Hoffman
Yes. This story is fairly well known, including the probably
apocryphal but still endearing account that Itamar's first words ---
the first words, therefore, in Modern Hebrew --- were LO L'HITLAXEM,
"stop fighting."
Fellman's 1973 book _Revival of a Classical Tongue_ goes into all the
details.
-Joel
phog...@abo.fi
Dr. Joel M. Hoffman kirjoitti:
Anyway, I reckon Ben Yehuda's other achievements were more important
than bringing up Itamar in Hebrew: I think he was above all a leading
journalist in Hebrew - i.e. he made Hebrew a language in which you
could actually discuss contemporary issues - and an exponent of a more
orally and communicationally oriented teaching of Hebrew. Correct me if
I am wrong.
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> Hello.
>
> news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
Even until today Hebrew has successfully
> maintained its unique character. They don't even use the word "computer",
> but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
> machine" :-) )
That you call unique? Big deal. Well, let me tell you something.
Icelandic calls computer a "tölva", Finnish calls it "tietokone" or
colloquially "tietsikka"; Swedish calls it "dator", Irish calls it
"ríomhaire", Czech calls it "pocitac" (somebody add the haceks and the
acute accent).
It is rather German that is unique among major languages in calling it
the English name. Okay, so there is Russian "komp'yuter" too, and
Polish "komputer". But still, Germany is one of the most submissive
nations these days in adopting undigested English words. "Der
Gangsterboss wurde von den Boys gekillt", pardon, "geassassinated".
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> schrubte:
> >>>>>> "news13102005" == news13102005 <news13...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
> > news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
> > news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
> > news13102005> Arabic.
> > What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
>
> Tea is just "te" and silk "meshi", which sounds not very Arabic to me.
> Anyway, one has taken also words from Arabic,
Oh yes, "kus", a very important word.
> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than does
> for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer" instead of
> the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very consequent in not
> borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
Then you don't know too many languages. Let me guess: German and
English? How fluent are you in Hebrew? Ata medaber ivrit?
Philipp Strathausen
> Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
>> Anyway, one has taken also words from Arabic,
> Oh yes, "kus", a very important word.
:-)
>> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than
>> does for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer"
>> instead of the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very
>> consequent in not borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
> Then you don't know too many languages. Let me guess: German and
> English?
...and French and Romanian (I am studying Bucharest). Okay, those languages
are somehow similar. Linguistics is just a hobby of mine.
> How fluent are you in Hebrew? Ata medaber ivrit?
??????! ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????, ?? ?? ?????. ??? ?? ?????? ?????
????? ??????????? ??????, ?????? ?? ??? ???????.
Philipp
sig...@binet.is
Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are also very submissive, "Dator" is one
of the few words that Swedish has managed to create in recent years,
otherwise most recent additions to the Swedish vocabulary are loan
words.
Danish is so bad that they´ll probably stop using it in the near
future.
Philipp Strathausen
> Even until today Hebrew has successfully
>> maintained its unique character. They don't even use the word "computer",
>> but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
>> machine" :-) )
> That you call unique? Big deal.
Take care! I didn't call the fact unique, that Hebrew invented words. Other
languages did this as well - of course. I called its *character* unique,
and you can discuss about that. I suppose every language as a unique
character. Please read what I wrote before starting a discussion.
> Well, let me tell you something.
> Icelandic calls computer a "tölva", Finnish calls it "tietokone" or
> colloquially "tietsikka"; Swedish calls it "dator", Irish calls it
> "ríomhaire", Czech calls it "pocitac" (somebody add the haceks and the
> acute accent).
>
> It is rather German that is unique among major languages in calling it
> the English name.
In this case, I don't think so. What about "Restaurant"? I don't say, all
the languages in the world are using "computer" or "restaurant". My
knowledge is far too limited for that ;-)
> Okay, so there is Russian "komp'yuter" too, and Polish "komputer".
So, you see.
> But still, Germany is one of the most submissive
> nations these days in adopting undigested English words. "Der
> Gangsterboss wurde von den Boys gekillt", pardon, "geassassinated".
I agreed with that already, and it's getting on my nerves as well.
Great example, by the way!
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
> Oh yes, "kus", a very important word.
:-)
>> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than
>> does for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer"
>> instead of the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very
>> consequent in not borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
> Then you don't know too many languages. Let me guess: German and
> English?
...and French and Romanian (I am studying in Bucharest). Okay, those
languages are somehow similar. Linguistics is just a hobby of mine.
> How fluent are you in Hebrew? Ata medaber ivrit?
תירבע דומלל יתחדמה ךכ רחא .ןועבט די לע הוקת רפכב םייתנש ינפל יתבדנתה !יאדווב
חכשא אלש ידכ ,ןילרבב הטיסרבינואב.
Philipp
PS: I hope the character encoding is ok this time, I've cancelled the other
article.
Philipp Strathausen
> Oh yes, "kus", a very important word.
:-)
>> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than
>> does for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer"
>> instead of the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very
>> consequent in not borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
> Then you don't know too many languages. Let me guess: German and
> English?
...and French and Romanian (I am studying in Bucharest). Okay, those
languages are somehow similar. Linguistics is just a hobby of mine.
> How fluent are you in Hebrew? Ata medaber ivrit?
??????! ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? (?? ?? ?????). ??? ?? ?????? ?????
????? ??????????? ??????, ??? ??? ????.
Philipp
PS: I hope the character encoding is ok this time, I've cancelled the other
articles. (hopefully not too late, my connection is really bad)
Philipp Strathausen
> Oh yes, "kus", a very important word.
:-)
>> Of course Hebrew borrows words, also in daily life, but far less than
>> does for example German. E.g. in German, we generally use "computer"
>> instead of the German equivalent "Rechner". Hebrew has been very
>> consequent in not borrowing words, compared to other languages I know.
> Then you don't know too many languages. Let me guess: German and
> English?
...and French and Romanian (I am studying in Bucharest). Okay, those
languages are somehow similar. Linguistics is just a hobby of mine.
> How fluent are you in Hebrew? Ata medaber ivrit?
תירבע דומלל יתכשמה ךכ רחא .ןועבט די לע הוקת רפכב םייתנש ינפל יתבדנתה !יאדווב
חכשא אלש ידכ ,ןילרבב הטיסרבינואב.
phog...@abo.fi
sig...@binet.is kirjoitti:
Yes, but Swedish at least tends to write and pronounce those Anglicisms
in a Swedish way. Even "show" is pronounced "sjåvv" in Sweden. (In
Finland-Swedish, it is more like English, because on this side of the
Gulf of Bothnia, Swedish-speakers are familiar with diphthongs, as they
occur both in Finnish and in Finno-Swedish dialects.)
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> >> news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> > Even until today Hebrew has successfully
> >> maintained its unique character. They don't even use the word "computer",
> >> but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
> >> machine" :-) )
> > That you call unique? Big deal.
>
> Take care! I didn't call the fact unique, that Hebrew invented words. Other
> languages did this as well - of course. I called its *character* unique,
> and you can discuss about that. I suppose every language as a unique
> character. Please read what I wrote before starting a discussion.
Well, I did read it.
>
> > Well, let me tell you something.
> > Icelandic calls computer a "tölva", Finnish calls it "tietokone" or
> > colloquially "tietsikka"; Swedish calls it "dator", Irish calls it
> > "ríomhaire", Czech calls it "pocitac" (somebody add the haceks and the
> > acute accent).
> >
> > It is rather German that is unique among major languages in calling it
> > the English name.
>
> In this case, I don't think so. What about "Restaurant"? I don't say, all
> the languages in the world are using "computer" or "restaurant". My
> knowledge is far too limited for that ;-)
In Finnish, "ravintola", in Icelandic "veitingahús". In Swedish, it is
certainly "restaurang". But "computer" is not "computer" in most major
languages.
> > Okay, so there is Russian "komp'yuter" too, and Polish "komputer".
>
> So, you see.
Yes, but in Polish you pronounce it as you write it: "komPOOter", and
in Russian it is of course written phonetically in Cyrillic. In German,
you write and pronounce it as in English. You don't try to write it as
"Kompjuhter", and you don't pronounce it as "Kom-poo-ter". The same
applies to "Terminal", which is pronounced as TÖHRminnel, not
termiNAL, which would be more German. And I do not even want to discuss
such horrors as "die Publicity" or "Event" (by the way, is it das, der
or die Event?).
> > But still, Germany is one of the most submissive
> > nations these days in adopting undigested English words. "Der
> > Gangsterboss wurde von den Boys gekillt", pardon, "geassassinated".
>
> I agreed with that already, and it's getting on my nerves as well.
> Great example, by the way!
Those "ge-ed" participles look especially stupid: "gewrecked",
"getimed", "abgefucked".
Philipp Strathausen
>> Other languages did this as well - of course. I called its *character*
>> unique, and you can discuss about that. I suppose every language as a
>> unique character. Please read what I wrote before starting a discussion.
> Well, I did read it.
Indeed I also find the way unique, how it has been brought to life.
[computer]
>> > It is rather German that is unique among major languages in calling it
>> > the English name.
>> In this case, I don't think so. What about "Restaurant"? I don't say, all
>> the languages in the world are using "computer" or "restaurant". My
>> knowledge is far too limited for that ;-)
> In Finnish, "ravintola", in Icelandic "veitingahús". In Swedish, it is
> certainly "restaurang". But "computer" is not "computer" in most major
> languages.
What about other loan words? I mean, is it true what sigvald wrote?
>> > Okay, so there is Russian "komp'yuter" too, and Polish "komputer".
>> So, you see.
> Yes, but in Polish you pronounce it as you write it: "komPOOter",
Wow. My grandmother does it as well that way in German.
> and in Russian it is of course written phonetically in Cyrillic.
Of course, but does it make any difference? Okay, lets go on with this
little race. I've had a look at my little German-Russian conversation
guide, on German words beginning with "p" and I found:
par (pair), pakiet, dokumient, park, patsient, person, plan, platskart (how
great, a German one, seat card for a train!!), militsia, potsht (post),
probliem, program, prospekt. At least, Hebrew for example, has for all of
them a Hebrew word, except of "park". Hebrew is great. Speak Hebrew now!
*advertise*
> In German,
> you write and pronounce it as in English. You don't try to write it as
> "Kompjuhter", and you don't pronounce it as "Kom-poo-ter". The same
> applies to "Terminal", which is pronounced as TÖHRminnel,
Yes, since people don't want those words to sound German, or better, they
don't want to sound German themselves. In fact, one could also use a
propper German word for this, because most people actually don't now
what "terminal" means. My suggestions where Schalter, Abfertigungshalle,
Datenstation or Konsole.
Those words may not always be as short, or derived from somewhere, but at
least one would know what it means. Ask a German about what a "Terminal"
actually is, I am sure most people won't be even able to give an answer.
Influences from Latin, or another language, is nothing I dislike. Such basic
words as "Fenster", "satt" or even "Problem", and all those tenses we have,
or the ending "-er" have enriched our language a lot, and others as well.
> not termiNAL, which would be more German. And I do not even want to
> discuss such horrors as "die Publicity" or "Event"
No, you really don't have to! During my studies in computer science I have
been tortured enough by this already. My colleagues simply *love* to use
anglicisms in any possible way! If you don't do so, you are not cool. Some
professors still keep up a good German (and speak the better English as
well!) but not so the younger ones...
> (by the way, is it das, der or die Event?).
Oh no. Well, there are two common ways: Either you call it "das", because it
is an English word, or you call it "das", because it means "das Ereignes".
But nothing aches more, than people calling it "der Top-Event des Jahres!"
By then I always feel this horrible pain in my head.
I can't explain why most people say "die E-Mail", including myself, although
the options where "der E-Mail", which is less popular, or "das E-Mail".
Usually I just call it "Brief", as long as there is no confusion with
the "real" letter, and in most cases I get along with that. Note, that
Germans write it "eMail", "Email", "Mail" or "E-mail", but the correct way
is "E-Mail", like "U-Bahn".
> Those "ge-ed" participles look especially stupid: "gewrecked",
> "getimed", "abgefucked".
Ouch. But you have to admit, German is (or was) a very rich language :-)
It just seems having lost its ability to grow.
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
> And I do not even want to discuss
> such horrors as "die Publicity" or "Event" (by the way, is it das, der
> or die Event?).
By the way, another obscure thing is that "handy". Pronounce it like an
English word, but actually it is German for "mobile phone". Most Germans
think it is an English word and use it in English conversations.
Philipp
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
In a similar way, metropolitan Swedish uses "freestyle" for the thing
usually known as "Walkman" in German, and they actually think it is an
English word. The Finno-Swedish word is "öronlappsstereo", a direct
translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
>
> [computer]
> >> > It is rather German that is unique among major languages in calling it
> >> > the English name.
> >> In this case, I don't think so. What about "Restaurant"? I don't say, all
> >> the languages in the world are using "computer" or "restaurant". My
> >> knowledge is far too limited for that ;-)
> > In Finnish, "ravintola", in Icelandic "veitingahús". In Swedish, it is
> > certainly "restaurang". But "computer" is not "computer" in most major
> > languages.
>
> What about other loan words? I mean, is it true what sigvald wrote?
Well, in Finnish we have, say, "puhelin" for telephone (in Icelandic,
sími). Biology is biologia even in Finnish, but líffraedi (I don't
use the special Icelandic letters here) in Icelandic.
>
> >> > Okay, so there is Russian "komp'yuter" too, and Polish "komputer".
> >> So, you see.
> > Yes, but in Polish you pronounce it as you write it: "komPOOter",
>
> Wow. My grandmother does it as well that way in German.
But I guess it's seen as a substandard or uncivilized pronunciation,
not as a natural assimilation.
> > and in Russian it is of course written phonetically in Cyrillic.
>
> Of course, but does it make any difference? Okay, lets go on with this
> little race. I've had a look at my little German-Russian conversation
> guide, on German words beginning with "p" and I found:
> par (pair), pakiet, dokumient, park, patsient, person, plan, platskart (how
> great, a German one, seat card for a train!!), militsia, potsht (post),
> probliem, program, prospekt. At least, Hebrew for example, has for all of
> them a Hebrew word, except of "park". Hebrew is great. Speak Hebrew now!
> *advertise*
I have been trying to learn it for some time now, but now I am
obstructed by other language-learning duties.
In Finnish:
pair = pari
pakiet = paketti
dokumient = asiakirja ("cause-book", "cause-letter")
park = puisto ("treery, place of trees")
patsient = potilas (from "potea" = suffer from a disease)
person = henkilö (from "henki" = spirit, ghost) ("persoona" is
stylistically marked)
plan = suunnitelma (from "suunta" = direction)
platskart = paikkalippu (word foe word translation: paikka = place,
lippu = ticket, flag)
militsia = miliisi (exotic word for exotic concept)
potshta = posti (old loanword)
probliema = ongelma ("probleema" is stylistically marked)
programma = ohjelma ("programmi" is heavily colloquial; in contemporary
slang, the truncated form "proggis" is preferred anyway; from "ohjata"
= to steer, to direct)
prospiekt (in the Russian sense of main street or avenue) = valtakatu
(valta = power in the sense of political power, katu = street, i.e.
"ruling street", "the king of streets")
> > In German,
> > you write and pronounce it as in English. You don't try to write it as
> > "Kompjuhter", and you don't pronounce it as "Kom-poo-ter". The same
> > applies to "Terminal", which is pronounced as TÖHRminnel,
>
> Yes, since people don't want those words to sound German, or better, they
> don't want to sound German themselves. In fact, one could also use a
> propper German word for this, because most people actually don't now
> what "terminal" means. My suggestions where Schalter, Abfertigungshalle,
> Datenstation or Konsole.
>
> Those words may not always be as short, or derived from somewhere, but at
> least one would know what it means. Ask a German about what a "Terminal"
> actually is, I am sure most people won't be even able to give an answer.
Back where I lived as a kid, a "terminaali", in the sense of combined
railway and bus station, was planned to be built in the town. However,
when it was actually built, it was called "keskusliikenneasema",
central traffic station.
> Influences from Latin, or another language, is nothing I dislike. Such basic
> words as "Fenster", "satt" or even "Problem", and all those tenses we have,
> or the ending "-er" have enriched our language a lot, and others as well.
Nothing wrong with them, as long as they are assimilated to the
language. Those Anglicisms are still "Fremdkörper".
> > not termiNAL, which would be more German. And I do not even want to
> > discuss such horrors as "die Publicity" or "Event"
>
> No, you really don't have to! During my studies in computer science I have
> been tortured enough by this already. My colleagues simply *love* to use
> anglicisms in any possible way! If you don't do so, you are not cool. Some
> professors still keep up a good German (and speak the better English as
> well!) but not so the younger ones...
>
> > (by the way, is it das, der or die Event?).
>
> Oh no. Well, there are two common ways: Either you call it "das", because it
> is an English word, or you call it "das", because it means "das Ereignes".
> But nothing aches more, than people calling it "der Top-Event des Jahres!"
> By then I always feel this horrible pain in my head.
>
> I can't explain why most people say "die E-Mail", including myself, although
> the options where "der E-Mail", which is less popular, or "das E-Mail".
> Usually I just call it "Brief", as long as there is no confusion with
> the "real" letter, and in most cases I get along with that. Note, that
> Germans write it "eMail", "Email", "Mail" or "E-mail", but the correct way
> is "E-Mail", like "U-Bahn".
>
> > Those "ge-ed" participles look especially stupid: "gewrecked",
> > "getimed", "abgefucked".
>
> Ouch. But you have to admit, German is (or was) a very rich language :-)
> It just seems having lost its ability to grow.
That is more or less the point. When newspaper German looks more
anglicized than newspaper Gaelic, something is seriously wrong.
>
> Philipp
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
My words exactly. No worries, they will. :)
Philipp Strathausen
>> English word, but actually it is German for "mobile phone". Most Germans
>> think it is an English word and use it in English conversations.
> In a similar way, metropolitan Swedish uses "freestyle" for the thing
> usually known as "Walkman" in German, and they actually think it is an
> English word.
It's both Sony, isn't it? Things I hate most, when people use a brand name
as a word, like here in Romania they call sport shoes "adidashi". In Germany
it happened to "handy" and "walkman", there was a time when "walky talky"
was also common for one-channel-phones with a direct communication.
By the way, the Israelians call mobile phones "pelefon" (ןופאלפ), which is
also told to be derived from a company or product name. Anyway, "pele"
means wonder (אלפ), so it's a "wonder-phone". I even like it!
> The Finno-Swedish word is "oronlappsstereo", a direct
> translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
Sounds all the same to me ;-) With this huge amount of letters finish uses
to write its words, I wonder if it was a good idea to create an own script
for Finish. Something more efficient, and fitting to the language. I don't
know Finish at all, but it's just my impression.
Greetings,
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
>> [computer]
>> What about other loan words? I mean, is it true what sigvald wrote?
> Well, in Finnish we have, say, "puhelin" for telephone (in Icelandic,
> sími). Biology is biologia even in Finnish, but líffraedi (I don't
> use the special Icelandic letters here) in Icelandic.
But... that is something completely different! Neither Finish nor Icelandic
actually come from this planet ;-) *jk* But in fact I think these languages
differ too strong from English, which makes it more difficult to just take
words as they are.
>> Wow. My grandmother does it as well that way in German.
> But I guess it's seen as a substandard or uncivilized pronunciation,
> not as a natural assimilation.
Yes.
>> Hebrew is great. Speak Hebrew now! *advertise*
> I have been trying to learn it for some time now, but now I am
> obstructed by other language-learning duties.
Have you been to Israel once? It's amazing. I started to like Hebrew very
much and keep learning, so I won't forget it.
> In Finnish:
(snipp)
I really think, Finnish is something special. What about Swedish or Danish?
>> Influences from Latin, or another language, is nothing I dislike. Such
>> basic words as "Fenster", "satt" or even "Problem", and all those tenses
>> we have, or the ending "-er" have enriched our language a lot, and others
>> as well.
> Nothing wrong with them, as long as they are assimilated to the
> language. Those Anglicisms are still "Fremdkörper".
And mostly resulting of lacking translating abilities.
>> Ouch. But you have to admit, German is (or was) a very rich language :-)
>> It just seems having lost its ability to grow.
> That is more or less the point. When newspaper German looks more
> anglicized than newspaper Gaelic, something is seriously wrong.
Yes :-) German newspapers have also English sources and tend to translate
them using "false friends" or just the English word. Usually they don't
have translation lessons, or some special education.
Philipp
sig...@binet.is
Philipp Strathausen wrote:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> >> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> >> [computer]
> >> What about other loan words? I mean, is it true what sigvald wrote?
> > Well, in Finnish we have, say, "puhelin" for telephone (in Icelandic,
> > sími). Biology is biologia even in Finnish, but líffraedi (I don't
> > use the special Icelandic letters here) in Icelandic.
>
> But... that is something completely different! Neither Finish nor Icelandic
> actually come from this planet ;-) *jk* But in fact I think these languages
> differ too strong from English, which makes it more difficult to just take
> words as they are.
English and Icelandic are closely related, Old Icelandic (old Norse)
and Old English influenced each other greatly.
nyra
> > The Finno-Swedish word is "oronlappsstereo", a direct
> > translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
>
> Sounds all the same to me ;-) With this huge amount of letters finish uses
> to write its words, I wonder if it was a good idea to create an own script
> for Finish. Something more efficient, and fitting to the language. I don't
> know Finish at all, but it's just my impression.
Finnish doesn't use that many letters per phoneme; i don't have any
statistics on hand, but i'd gess finnish is as 'letter-efficient' as
english in that regard. It might be possible to expand the latin
alphabet (beyond the already-used ä and ö) to account for the cases
currently treated by double letters, but i still don't think that
would make a large difference.
I wouldn't like to contemplate the result of adopting syllable script
for finnish - while the various affixes would certainly lend
themselves to this sort of simplification, having one symbol for
_every_ finnish word root would likely make it unreadable except for
mnemonic prodigies.
Finnish just has the capacity to generate very long words; that's why
they take so many letters to write.
--
Een koe is een merkwaardig beest; wat er ook in haar geest moge zijn,
haar laatste woord is altijd boe.
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> >> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> >> [computer]
> >> What about other loan words? I mean, is it true what sigvald wrote?
> > Well, in Finnish we have, say, "puhelin" for telephone (in Icelandic,
> > sími). Biology is biologia even in Finnish, but líffraedi (I don't
> > use the special Icelandic letters here) in Icelandic.
>
> But... that is something completely different! Neither Finish nor Icelandic
> actually come from this planet ;-) *jk* But in fact I think these languages
> differ too strong from English, which makes it more difficult to just take
> words as they are.
Nope. There is no real reason other than tradition why "computer"
couldn't be adopted into Icelandic as "kompútari". And Finnish does
know the word "kompuutteri", which is an entirely facetious word and is
rarely used, except as the name of a computer magazine.
>
> >> Wow. My grandmother does it as well that way in German.
> > But I guess it's seen as a substandard or uncivilized pronunciation,
> > not as a natural assimilation.
>
> Yes.
In Finnish, "kompuutteri" is marginally acceptable as a joke, but a
joke entirely assimilated to Finnish pronunciation and phonotaxis. To
pronounce it as [kom'pju:teri] would take even the joke too far.
>
> >> Hebrew is great. Speak Hebrew now! *advertise*
> > I have been trying to learn it for some time now, but now I am
> > obstructed by other language-learning duties.
>
> Have you been to Israel once? It's amazing. I started to like Hebrew very
> much and keep learning, so I won't forget it.
Regrettably, no. I am mostly interested in the revival of Hebrew as a
sociolinguistic phenomenon, because I am very much into Irish (FYI: we
call it properly "Irish", not "Gaelic"), and there is currently very
much interest in Irish-speaking circles in the revival of Hebrew.
>
> > In Finnish:
> (snipp)
>
> I really think, Finnish is something special. What about Swedish or Danish?
I don't think Finnish is in any way "special". No language is
"special". Some take in more loanwords, some less.
>
> >> Influences from Latin, or another language, is nothing I dislike. Such
> >> basic words as "Fenster", "satt" or even "Problem", and all those tenses
> >> we have, or the ending "-er" have enriched our language a lot, and others
> >> as well.
> > Nothing wrong with them, as long as they are assimilated to the
> > language. Those Anglicisms are still "Fremdkörper".
>
> And mostly resulting of lacking translating abilities.
Precisely.
>
> >> Ouch. But you have to admit, German is (or was) a very rich language :-)
> >> It just seems having lost its ability to grow.
> > That is more or less the point. When newspaper German looks more
> > anglicized than newspaper Gaelic, something is seriously wrong.
>
> Yes :-) German newspapers have also English sources and tend to translate
> them using "false friends" or just the English word. Usually they don't
> have translation lessons, or some special education.
So it seems. Well, German was a great language as long as it lasted.
Let us honour its memory by reading Heinrich Böll's short story "Im
Lande der Rujuks".
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > The Finno-Swedish word is "oronlappsstereo", a direct
> > translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
>
> Sounds all the same to me ;-) With this huge amount of letters finish uses
> to write its words, I wonder if it was a good idea to create an own script
> for Finish. Something more efficient, and fitting to the language. I don't
> know Finish at all, but it's just my impression.
Finnish uses a very phonetic and efficient script, a letter for a
phoneme. It's just that you Indo-Europeans don't know how to appreciate
agglutination and compound words. You all have such short and truncated
words: mob, hop, cock, sock and so on. :) In a real language, such as
Finnish, all words have at least two syllables. We are not afraid of
long words, such as "reititin", "hiukkaskiihdytin", "tuikeilmaisin",
"kiintolevy", "tuloste"... And if you want to know what those words
mean, they are all very high-tech and you Germans use English or
Latinate word for all these concepts.
Philipp Strathausen
> Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
>> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
>> > The Finno-Swedish word is "oronlappsstereo", a direct
>> > translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
>> Sounds all the same to me ;-) With this huge amount of letters finish
>> uses to write its words, I wonder if it was a good idea to create an own
>> script for Finish. Something more efficient, and fitting to the language.
>> I don't know Finish at all, but it's just my impression.
> Finnish uses a very phonetic and efficient script, a letter for a
> phoneme.
That's not really efficient. Hebrew for example doesn't need a letter for
every phoneme. What about the Japanese system? (I mean the one with
syllables) I don't know Finnish, but maybe something like that could work?
> It's just that you Indo-Europeans don't know how to appreciate
> agglutination and compound words.
Okay, actually it's something I like. Esperanto has some nice ideas. In
German usually we also just put words together, maybe connected with
an "s". At least we can create huge words with it, with lots of letters:
Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
(I didn't make this one up!) AFAIK Finnish works a little bit more
sophisticated... (except of that minimum of two syllables *g*)
Better examples may be "Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung", which also is just
composed, or "Unkameradschaftlichkeit", which is _not_ just a composed
word.
> You all have such short and truncated
> words: mob, hop, cock, sock and so on. :) In a real language, such as
> Finnish, all words have at least two syllables. We are not afraid of
> long words, such as "reititin", "hiukkaskiihdytin", "tuikeilmaisin",
> "kiintolevy", "tuloste"...
Is anyone still asking for evidences, that Finnish is related to Japanese?
> And if you want to know what those words mean, they are all very high-tech
> and you Germans use English or Latinate word for all these concepts.
Well, German without Latin just wouldn't exist. For instance there are basic
words like Fest, Fenster or satt (which are shorter and more efficient than
the Latin ones) In fact, Latin is a part of German.
What do you think about a syllabic alphabet? Has there ever been a Finnish
alphabet? I also pity those Hungarians, with their massive amount of
accents in each word... No doubt you can get used to everything, but is it
efficient?
Philipp
phog...@abo.fi
Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> > Philipp Strathausen kirjoitti:
> >> phog...@abo.fi <phog...@abo.fi> schrubte:
> >> > The Finno-Swedish word is "oronlappsstereo", a direct
> >> > translation of the Finnish "korvalappustereo" ("headphone-stereo").
> >> Sounds all the same to me ;-) With this huge amount of letters finish
> >> uses to write its words, I wonder if it was a good idea to create an own
> >> script for Finish. Something more efficient, and fitting to the language.
> >> I don't know Finish at all, but it's just my impression.
> > Finnish uses a very phonetic and efficient script, a letter for a
> > phoneme.
>
> That's not really efficient. Hebrew for example doesn't need a letter for
> every phoneme.
That works greatly in a Semitic language, where consonants carry the
meaning and vowels are only "forces of movement". Finnish, though, is
rich in vowels, and to recognise the word stem, you really need to see
the vowels.
> What about the Japanese system? (I mean the one with
> syllables) I don't know Finnish, but maybe something like that could work?
Well, it would certainly be more appropriate than a Semitic alphabet,
considering the importance of vowels in the language.
> > It's just that you Indo-Europeans don't know how to appreciate
> > agglutination and compound words.
>
> Okay, actually it's something I like. Esperanto has some nice ideas. In
> German usually we also just put words together, maybe connected with
> an "s". At least we can create huge words with it, with lots of letters:
> Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
> (I didn't make this one up!) AFAIK Finnish works a little bit more
> sophisticated... (except of that minimum of two syllables *g*)
>
> Better examples may be "Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung", which also is just
> composed, or "Unkameradschaftlichkeit", which is _not_ just a composed
> word.
What about "järjestelmällistämättömyydessäänköhän"? It is
definitely not a compound word, but a case form of the (possible) word
"järjestelmällistämättömyys" (the state of not having been
systematically arranged) with enclitics added.
> > You all have such short and truncated
> > words: mob, hop, cock, sock and so on. :) In a real language, such as
> > Finnish, all words have at least two syllables. We are not afraid of
> > long words, such as "reititin", "hiukkaskiihdytin", "tuikeilmaisin",
> > "kiintolevy", "tuloste"...
>
> Is anyone still asking for evidences, that Finnish is related to Japanese?
It is certainly and definitely not. BTW, hiukkaskiihdytin means
"particle accelerator", reititin means "router", tuikeilmaisin means
"scintillation detector", kiintolevy is a computer hard-disc, and
tuloste is a computer printout.
> > And if you want to know what those words mean, they are all very high-tech
> > and you Germans use English or Latinate word for all these concepts.
>
> Well, German without Latin just wouldn't exist. For instance there are basic
> words like Fest, Fenster or satt (which are shorter and more efficient than
> the Latin ones) In fact, Latin is a part of German.
Yes, but I mean those learned, hard words. Of course there are old
loanwords of Latin origin even in Finnish.
>
> What do you think about a syllabic alphabet? Has there ever been a Finnish
> alphabet?
No, not really. There was something called "venykekirjoitus",
introducing uniquely Finnish diacritics for our many diphthongs, but it
never caught on - it was only employed by its creator, who incidentally
also developed our medical terminology a lot.
> I also pity those Hungarians, with their massive amount of
> accents in each word... No doubt you can get used to everything, but is it
> efficient?
Well, of course it is satisfying to have an alphabet of your own, as
Georgians and Armenians will tell you, but for computers, it would be a
nightmare. And we cannot simply stick to the basic Latin. However, I
guess some international syllabary with development potential for new
sounds and new kinds of syllables would be an interesting idea. The
Korean Han'gul is the work of a genius and makes you really want to
learn the language too.