Tactics to bringing a language to life
news13...@hotmail.com
Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
Church.
1) You must bring the Coptic language to life in your own heart, soul
and mind.
2) You must then start a family.
3) You must encourage members of your family to communicate with you in
the Coptic language.
4) You must invite other interested families within the church to join
you.
5) If you own a business, make sure you recruit employees who can speak
the Coptic language to satisfactory standards.
6) When you have attained at least 1000 people establish a political
party.
7) Be fruitful and multiply! Yes, lets be active in evangelism :-)
I do hope you find doing the above enjoyable.
Have fun!
Alexei A. Frounze
> Hello!
>
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal.
You should probably advertise products on TV. They love saying NEW, BRAND
NEW, NEWER, implying BETTER, which is not necessarily true, and they do that
over and over again and only an imbecil can not figure out that all their
FORGET YOUR OLD SOMETHING, HERE'S THE BRAND NEW SOMETHING ELSE is an
infinite song for which they want get paid and whatever is new now will be
bad in the future and whatever will be new in the future will be again bad
in the deeper future and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
> I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> language to life.
Yeah, we're waiting for your treatment to cure our dumb mouths, your
Holiness.
> For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> Church.
>
> 1) You must bring the Coptic language to life in your own heart, soul
> and mind.
Don't tell others what they must, OK.
> 2) You must then start a family.
Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry someone like
you. Crazy enough to do that.
> 3) You must encourage members of your family to communicate with you
> in the Coptic language.
Maybe a clinic for mentally ill would be a good place to start the campaign.
The paitients will be excited about such a good new activity, which probably
won't happen in our communities among healthy people for they have some
better things to do every day.
> 4) You must invite other interested families within the church to join
> you.
>
> 5) If you own a business, make sure you recruit employees who can
> speak the Coptic language to satisfactory standards.
>
> 6) When you have attained at least 1000 people establish a political
> party.
>
> 7) Be fruitful and multiply! Yes, lets be active in evangelism :-)
>
> I do hope you find doing the above enjoyable.
Well, if you hoped to say something not very well-thought and make people
laugh at what you wrote or at yourself, you got it! :)
But if you're really concerned about the topic which you brought, it's not
all that easy or we would have had one language on our planet for hundreds
of years already.
Alex
K6
GAY PARALLEL REPUBLIC (GPR)
External Affairs
English language sector of activity
Message # 43
March 28,2006
A language such like Esperanto will not become a universal
language.There is no economic or military power behind it.No incentive
thus to learn it since it does not correspond to any geopolitical
reality.Even English,for all what stands behind it,is not really *the*
universal language.90% of the world population does not speak it to
start with.The idea of a universal language is an utopia,similar to the
one of the political unification of mankind.The sectarian,tribal and
nationalistic nature of the human specie will not allow it to become a
reality.
aran...@insightbb.com
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal.
I would argue the opposite is true. They *do* have unique appeal --
Esperanto because of its historical connection with international
cooperation, Klingon because of its intentional disregard for certain
so-called linguistic universals (and its connection with Star Trek),
Lojban because of its fanatical dedication to regularity and
unambiguous parseability, etc.
No, the problem is that they do not have *general* appeal.
Ruud Harmsen
Interlingua?
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
phog...@abo.fi
Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry someone like
> you. Crazy enough to do that.
I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning any
minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
languages ridiculous. I would like to point out that I do not like your
attitude.
Esben I.
> Interlingua?
Would be my bet. Only language I could understand at first try. Now, all
it needs is an army.
regards
Esben I.
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
>
>
>> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
>> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
>
> I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> languages ridiculous.
The three mentioned languages were invented, they weren't native languages
of some country or its part. What's the danger there? Do people who've
learned those invented languages suffer from inability of speaking their
/native/ language in their countries?
I'd not say some minor language is bad because it's minor or different or
its speakers are a minority or are different. And I didn't, did I? If you're
particularly upset about my statement of having one language on our planet,
then my personal opinion is this... People get closer and closer to each
other by means of transportation and information/telecommunication
technologies. That is good. But the language problem is still there -- you
can't just talk to anyone you've approached physically or met on the
internet, you must know their language for that or use some tools or
references to get the information translated from one language to the other.
And that is bad. If you think that I'm promoting some particular language
for all to speak, you're wrong. As long as everyone would speak that
language (eventually), I don't care what it is, it can be neither my native
nor others which I know. The same kind of badness is our countries... Just
don't get me wrong yet. Can you go to all places in the world now w/o having
a visa? I bet you can't (unless you're a president of a country which has
friendly relations with all other countries or something like that). You
can't cross all the borders just like that. I'm against the language borders
and country borders, which are difficult to cross. When there's just one
country, there's no border, there's no need to have armies just in case of a
war with some other country.
So, back to the language issue... There needs to be a language everyone
would understand. AFAIK, there're countries where people speak different
languages but there's one common state language in all parts of the country
and most people know it. We need that on a bigger scale, worldwide. If
that's English, OK. If that's Esperanto, OK. If that's something else that's
good enough for the purpose, OK. But god damn provide the real support (not
just some enthusiastic one among linguists) for it, urge to use, invest in
it on the govermental level. The church or several individuals can't do
that, they just do not have enough resources and authority.
> I would like to point out that I do not like
> your attitude.
We make our choices. I didn't like the one of the OP.
Cheers,
Alex
Christopher Culver
> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
> in their countries?
In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
should speak Esperanto instead of their native language. Even outside
of formal meetings or congresses, whenever I tried to stick to English
with my fellow English-speaker friends who happened to be
Esperantists, I was rebuffed with "Ni estas samideanoj, ni devus
paroli Esperanton. Ne krokodilu!" ("We are comrades, we should speak
Esperanto, don't use your native language!") This nuttery is why I
finally left.
> But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
> anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
> know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
> the information translated from one language to the other. And that
> is bad.
No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
Christopher Culver
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
Larisa
Christopher Culver wrote:
>
> > But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
> > anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
> > know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
> > the information translated from one language to the other. And that
> > is bad.
>
> No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
> communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
> grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
> is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
> since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
mutually comprehensible.
LM
news13...@hotmail.com
> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
> > Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> >
> >
> >> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
> >> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
> >
> > I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> > imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> > any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> > languages ridiculous.
>
> The three mentioned languages were invented, they weren't native languages
All languages were invented :) and it does not matter whether it is
Hebrew, English, Esperanto, Coptic and Arabic. I like the method used
by Zionists to bring back Hebrew language to life.
> Can you go to all places in the world now w/o having
> a visa? I bet you can't (unless you're a president of a country which has
> friendly relations with all other countries or something like that). You
> can't cross all the borders just like that. I'm against the language borders
> and country borders, which are difficult to cross. When there's just one
> country, there's no border, there's no need to have armies just in case of a
> war with some other country.
>
25-member European Union is set towards becoming one country like the
50-member United States of America. Language diversity is the
foundation of both the EU and the US.
> But god damn provide the real support (not
> just some enthusiastic one among linguists) for it, urge to use, invest in
> it on the govermental level. The church or several individuals can't do
> that, they just do not have enough resources and authority.
>
I dislike government interference. The Church as the Christian
community is the foundation of Coptic nationalism.
> > I would like to point out that I do not like
> > your attitude.
>
> We make our choices. I didn't like the one of the OP.
>
Its your right to freely make your choice. If you love Russian, its
your free choice but its my free choice to love Coptic.
Alexei A. Frounze
> "Alexei A. Frounze" <ale...@chat.ru> writes:
>> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
>> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
>> in their countries?
>
> In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> should speak Esperanto instead of their native language. Even outside
> of formal meetings or congresses, whenever I tried to stick to English
> with my fellow English-speaker friends who happened to be
> Esperantists, I was rebuffed with "Ni estas samideanoj, ni devus
> paroli Esperanton. Ne krokodilu!" ("We are comrades, we should speak
> Esperanto, don't use your native language!") This nuttery is why I
> finally left.
Don't deal with those crocodiles refusing to speak with you because of the
language.
>> But the language problem is still there -- you can't just talk to
>> anyone you've approached physically or met on the internet, you must
>> know their language for that or use some tools or references to get
>> the information translated from one language to the other. And that
>> is bad.
>
> No, diversity is good. Having to learn a foreign language to
> communicate with others keeps life interesting and helps avoid the
> grey monotony of globalisation. The Esperanto solution to the problem
> is just as bad as trying to spread McDonald's and Coca-Cola all over
> since local food is "too weird" or whatever.
Diversity *is* good. Absense of the common language is bad.
Alex
Bob LeChevalier
>"Alexei A. Frounze" <ale...@chat.ru> writes:
>> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
>> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
>> in their countries?
>
>In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
>movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
>should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
Hilarious.
In 1989 at the World Science Fiction Convention in Boston, the Lojban
booth and The Esperanto booth were adjacent. The Esperantists seemed
to speak less Esperanto to each other than us Lojbanists spoke Lojban
to each other - and there were as yet no competent Lojban speakers.
I commented on this fact, and was told precisely the opposite of what
you just claimed - Esperantists who share a common native language
speak that native language.
lojbab
Neeraj Mathur
"Christopher Culver" <crcu...@christopherculver.com> wrote in message
news:87fyl1n...@aura.christopherculver.com...
> "Alexei A. Frounze" <ale...@chat.ru> writes:
>> What's the danger there? Do people who've learned those invented
>> languages suffer from inability of speaking their /native/ language
>> in their countries?
>
> In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> should speak Esperanto instead of their native language. Even outside
> of formal meetings or congresses, whenever I tried to stick to English
> with my fellow English-speaker friends who happened to be
> Esperantists, I was rebuffed with "Ni estas samideanoj, ni devus
> paroli Esperanton. Ne krokodilu!" ("We are comrades, we should speak
> Esperanto, don't use your native language!") This nuttery is why I
> finally left.
I thought that Esperantists claim that using that language somehow
'protects' minority languages - how exactly is that supposed to work if the
above is true?
Neeraj Mathur
Christopher Culver
> I thought that Esperantists claim that using that language somehow
> 'protects' minority languages - how exactly is that supposed to work if the
> above is true?
The claim that Esperanto protects national languages is a recent fad,
which popped up in the last 30 years or so and is used to maximise
funding from European institutions and give Esperantists
respectability at international NGO and governmental events. Before
that, the claim is nowhere to be found. Zamenhof himself said some
really frightful things about language diversity, including wishing
that eventually all national languages would disappear.
Ruud Harmsen
<crcu...@christopherculver.com>: in sci.lang:
>The claim that Esperanto protects national languages is a recent fad,
>which popped up in the last 30 years or so
Is that a fact? I remember being aware of the claim when I first got
into contact with Esperanto, which may have been as early as 1972.
>and is used to maximise
>funding from European institutions and give Esperantists
>respectability at international NGO and governmental events. Before
>that, the claim is nowhere to be found. Zamenhof himself said some
>really frightful things about language diversity, including wishing
>that eventually all national languages would disappear.
--
António Marques
> I'm against the language borders and country borders, which are
> difficult to cross. When there's just one country, there's no border,
> there's no need to have armies just in case of a war with some other
> country.
While we're at it, we could make it so that everybody had the same
tastes and opinions on everything, and there would be no more arguments
throughout the world.
--
am
laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
>
>> I'm against the language borders and country borders, which are
>> difficult to cross. When there's just one country, there's no border,
>> there's no need to have armies just in case of a war with some other
>> country.
>
> While we're at it, we could make it so that everybody had the same
> tastes and opinions on everything, and there would be no more
> arguments throughout the world.
I don't want a war. Do you? Being different or having a different opinion is
OK, but what's bad in not having wars and armies for them? Most people would
be against any kind of war resulting in injuries and deaths. Wouldn't they?
Alex
António Marques
There's these people who think having a different country and / or a
different language is ok.
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
Christopher Culver wrote:
>
> In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
Bullshit, Culver.
It's no different than two Latinos speaking Spanish to their little
darlings in the middle of Iowa, with said LDs going to school where
only English is used. They'll learn both languages, perhaps the
non-familial English better.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Larisa wrote:
>
> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
> mutually comprehensible.
Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
nowadays.
E-0 may change in 1000 years but it won't spawn x-number of daughter
languages like PIE did.
Ruud Harmsen
<drm...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>Larisa wrote:
>>
>> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
>> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
>> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
>> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
>> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
>> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
>> mutually comprehensible.
>
>Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
>ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
>distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
>nowadays.
There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
>E-0 may change in 1000 years but it won't spawn x-number of daughter
>languages like PIE did.
Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
Christopher Culver
> Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
> someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Christopher Culver wrote:
> >
> > In the case of Esperanto, I'd say that often yes. The Esperanto
> > movement is rather strict that if two people are Esperantists, they
> > should speak Esperanto instead of their native language.
>
> Bullshit, Culver.
> It's no different than two Latinos speaking Spanish to their little
> darlings in the middle of Iowa, with said LDs going to school where
> only English is used. They'll learn both languages, perhaps the
> non-familial English better.
Look, dimwit's back, with all its idiotic attitude intact, and with,
moreover, no clue regarding the Esperanto community!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> 30 Mar 2006 20:06:49 -0800: "dmitri mosier/iowa city ia"
> <drm...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>
> >Larisa wrote:
> >>
> >> And the Esperanto solution won't work anyway. Languages change and
> >> evolve - it's just the way the human mind works. Even if the whole
> >> world were to adopt Esperanto and forget their native languages
> >> altogether, 100 years from now we'll all be speaking slightly different
> >> versions of Esperanto, 500 years from now these different versions will
> >> be different languages, and 1000 years from now they will not be
> >> mutually comprehensible.
> >
> >Don't think so, L. Your scenario above came about because of lack of
> >ability to communicate between the different (and geographically
> >distant/separate) populations. Communication is no such problem
> >nowadays.
>
> There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
> between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
> grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
> thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
> and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
>
Hasn't it been shown, though, that all those differences reached their
height just before the advent of globalized communications and that
since said advent the pendulum has started swinging back the other way?
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
> If you can contribute nothing to the discussion other than lame,
dmitri mosier/iowa city, Iowa
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
Peter T. Daniels
>
> > 30 Mar 2006 20:06:49 -0800: "dmitri mosier/iowa city ia"
> > There is ample communicatinon (TV, movies/films, Internet etc.)
> > between the US and UK, but pronunciation, choice of words, some
> > grammatical traits, still display some significant differences. Same
> > thing between pt in BR and PT, es in ES and Latin America, fr in FR
> > and CA, nl in NL and BE, de in DE and AT, etc. etc.
> >
>
> Hasn't it been shown, though, that all those differences reached their
> height just before the advent of globalized communications and that
> since said advent the pendulum has started swinging back the other way?
Who do you think "showed" that? Where?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
Look who's talking!
mb
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia wrote:
> immature ad homina, you may considering not "contributing" at all,
The American plural is "add hominy"
phog...@abo.fi
Christopher Culver wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen <realemail...@rudhar.com.invalid> writes:
> > Interesting thesis. The development is too recent to really say. Hope
> > someone will google this up in the year 2500, and comment.
>
> What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
> in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
> international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
> enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
I guess it will go on much like it used to. Esperanto will probably be
spoken among a band of followers, English will give way to some other
major language - Spanish, Portuguese, Hindi, Japanese, Chinese, or a
descendant of some of these. Your guess is as good as mine. In Africa,
minor languages will probably give way to regional lingua francas such
as Swahili and Sango. Out there, new languages will evolve as koinés
of mutually related dialects and languages (much in the way Swahili
evolved). Artistic conlangs comparable with Klingon and Quenya might
for idealistic reasons acquire communities of habitual, even native
speakers. It is not ruled out that some or one of these will acquire
significant importance in international communication, if it comes with
an attractive ideological package. It is also not ruled out that
Esperanto will become more important.
I do not share your antipathy towards Esperanto, but I am not an
Esperanto enthusiast either. I am rather neutral about it as a
language. I think it is a nice conlang, and as good a candidate for an
international auxlang as any. I have learnt its basics, but am usually
too busy with natural languages to take the trouble of becoming fluent.
phog...@abo.fi
Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
> > Alexei A. Frounze kirjoitti:
> >
> >
> >> Yeah, just find a guy or a gal who's a little bit nuts to marry
> >> someone like you. Crazy enough to do that.
> >
> > I gather you are the native speaker of the language of some jackbooted
> > imperialist conqueror nation who never took the trouble of learning
> > any minor languages and who finds the idea of revitalizing endangered
> > languages ridiculous.
>
> The three mentioned languages were invented,
FYI, Coptic is not an invented language. It is an Afro-Asiatic
language, the daughter language of ancient Egyptian, written in a
Greek-based alphabet rather reminiscent of Cyrillic, and including a
heavy admixture of Greek loanwords.
Peter T. Daniels
> FYI, Coptic is not an invented language. It is an Afro-Asiatic
> language, the daughter language of ancient Egyptian, written in a
> Greek-based alphabet rather reminiscent of Cyrillic, and including a
> heavy admixture of Greek loanwords.
What's cyrillic-looking about the Coptic alphabet?
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
>phog...@abo.fi wrote:
>
>> FYI, Coptic is not an invented language. It is an Afro-Asiatic
>> language, the daughter language of ancient Egyptian, written in a
>> Greek-based alphabet rather reminiscent of Cyrillic, and including a
>> heavy admixture of Greek loanwords.
>
>What's cyrillic-looking about the Coptic alphabet?
Anybody can judge for themselves:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/coptic.htm
I see some slight similarities myself too.
Alexei A. Frounze
> Alexei A. Frounze wrote:
...
>> The three mentioned languages were invented,
>
> FYI, Coptic is not an invented language.
I know, I was referring to Esperanto, Lojban and Klingon.
Alex
Peter T. Daniels
Um, because they're both derived from Greek uncials?
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
question instead of a statement.
Surely you're a good enough linguist to have picked up that particular
nuance?
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Oh, now, there's a stunning rebuke!
Can't admit to your own bad behavior so you have to resort to the "but
mommy, he did it too!!!" shtick, eh Petey?
Herman Rubin
................
>25-member European Union is set towards becoming one country like the
>50-member United States of America. Language diversity is the
>foundation of both the EU and the US.
Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
largely for older immigrants in the past.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Peter T. Daniels
That sort of question in the negative is typically an assertion.
You are claiming to have read that somewhere, though you don't remember
quite where. But I rather doubt that you ever have read that anywhere,
at least not in the writings of people who seriously study language
change. William Labov, who investigates this sort of question, says the
opposite.
So, where do you think you might have seen it?
Alexei A. Frounze
> Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
> not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
> schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
> largely for older immigrants in the past.
I know a number of Russians here in the US, who had been born in the US or
came to the country at a very little age and they don't speak Russian well.
A few months back I saw a little boy and his dad at a supermarket. The dad
would speak Russian to the kid but the kid would always speak English back.
IMO, it sucks when you can't speak the same language with your family
members. I guess the language problem is still pretty much the problem of
immigrants. They're not prohibited to speak either language where
appropriate but they're not supported in learning the new language or the
language of parents.
Alex
Herman Rubin
>Alex
It is more than that. Until recently, most immigrants
decided that they should be American, not hyphenated
American, and this meant that their children should
grow up linguistically as American, but retaining those
aspects of their culture which they thought worthwhile.
My parents would not use any language other than English
at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
idea that the children should not be adept in English
was not at all common.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
disagrees with the Great Peter Daniels?
Your arrogance continues to astound me with its scope.
pluto
wrote/and/or quoted:
"
>Herman Rubin wrote:
>> Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
>> not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
>> schools which used other languages, but even ESL was
>> largely for older immigrants in the past.
yes, herman rubin,
i have candp here in scm, scs, sct:
>>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
>>>Newsgroups: soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.thai,soc.culture.singapore
>>>Subject: The Mandarin Offensive
>>>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:48:19 +0800
>>>Organization: FJC Inc
>>>Message-ID: <05vn229la4sip8ttr...@4ax.com>
>>>Issue 14.04 - April 2006
>>>The Mandarin Offensive
>>>Inside Beijing's global campaign to make Chinese the number one language in
>>>the world.
>>>By Michael ErardPage 1 of 2 next »
>>>A light snow is falling outside the windows of Cyrus H. McCormick School in
>>>southwest Chicago, but the second graders in Room 203 are not distracted
>>>from their lesson. May Cheung, an energetic teacher from Hong Kong, holds a
>>>cup to her lips and asks, "Wo he shemma?" (What am I drinking?) A forest of
>>>arms go up. "Cha! Cha!" (Tea!) An hour later, Cheung has kindergartners
>>>counting to 27 in Mandarin as she hands out Chinese New Year hong bao, the
>>>red envelopes that promise wealth, abundance, and good fortune. For most of
>>>the kids in this Mexican-American neighborhood, Mandarin is their third
>>>language - after Spanish and English.
>>>The children at McCormick are part of the largest grade school Chinese
>>>program in the US. Seven years ago, after a post-college stint teaching
>>>English in China, Robert Davis wandered into the offices of the Chicago
>>>Public Schools and convinced the director to start a comprehensive Chinese
>>>language program and hire him to manage it. Now 3,500 Chicago kids, from
>>>kindergartners to 12th graders, learn Mandarin. "The days of everybody
>>>trying to be American are over," Davis says. "When you do business with or
>>>go to other countries, be prepared to work on their terms."
>>>Far from Chicago - 6,597 miles to the west, to be exact - Ma Jianfei is
>>>pointing at a huge map on the wall of a plush meeting room in an otherwise
>>>dreary building in Beijing. Ma is the deputy director general of the
>>>National Office for Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language, better known as
>>>Hanban, and the map chronicles his success exporting Mandarin around the
>>>world. The map shows that the hottest markets for Mandarin are Thailand and
>>>South Korea, where all elementary and middle schools will offer Chinese by
>>>2007. Europe, particularly France and Germany, is also doing well, thick
>>>with yellow circles (teachers), red triangles (test facilities), and blue
>>>squares (language centers).
>>>There aren't many shapes in the US yet, but Ma is working on that. For the
>>>past two years, Hanban has been collaborating with the College Board, the
>>>nonprofit that runs the SAT and the Advanced Placement program; in 2007,
>>>high school kids across the US will be able to take the first ever AP exam
>>>for Chinese language and culture (this year they're prepping for the test
>>>in new College Board-accredited classes). In October, Ma was in the
>>>American heartland, inking an agreement to open a Confucius Institute, a
>>>center for Chinese language learning and cultural studies, at the
>>>University of Kansas. It'll be the sixth in the US, the 41st in the world.
>>>Soon there will be 100 such institutes worldwide.
>>>Mandarin Chinese is already the most popular first language on the planet,
>>>beating out English by 500 million speakers. And it's the
>>>second-most-common language on the Internet. Now, just as China requires
>>>students to learn English, Beijing wants to make Chinese the must-take
>>>language for English speakers - and everyone else. Ma figures there are
>>>currently 30 million people around the world learning Chinese as a second
>>>language. Hanban aims to increase that to 100 million over the next four
>>>years.
>>>It's an audacious goal, and the government is backing it by funding - to
>>>the tune of nearly $25 million a year - the teaching of Chinese as a
>>>foreign language. Last year, Hanban sent 1,042 volunteer teachers to
>>>France, Kazakhstan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Mauritius, Nigeria, Colombia,
>>>and 16 other countries. This year, it will top that number.
>>>Hanban provides schools, centers, and Confucius Institutes with seed money,
>>>textbooks, and game-based learning software. College kids and adults play
>>>Great Wall Chinese, while middle school students get a game called Chengo
>>>Chinese, which Hanban developed through a partnership with the US
>>>Department of Education. Nearly 15,000 American kids in 20 states helped
>>>beta-test the game, and it's now used in Mandarin classes offered through
>>>the accredited Michigan Virtual High School.
>>>Beijing isn't doing anything different from what the British or the
>>>Americans or the French have done - sending emissaries abroad to spread its
>>>language and culture. It's not the first time the Chinese have pushed their
>>>native tongue, either: In the 17th and 18th centuries, imperial China
>>>brought several Chinese languages to much of Southeast Asia. But this
>>>21st-century push is more global in scope, as befits an emerging world
>>>power. "This is the linguistic equivalent of sending a person to the moon,"
>>>says Oded Shenkar, a professor at the Ohio State University and author of
>>>The Chinese Century.
>>>Chinese bureaucrats take their evangelism seriously. The country is
>>>"merging into the world," Zhang Xinsheng, China's deputy minister of
>>>education, explained to reporters before the first World Chinese Conference
>>>last June. The event attracted diplomats and teachers from 65 countries -
>>>all there to partake in China's efforts to export Mandarin. "China, as the
>>>mother country of the language, shoulders the responsibility of promoting
>>>[the language] and helping other nations to learn it better and faster."
>>>Chinese authorities also see spreading Chinese as an important part of the
>>>country's "peaceful rise," says Elizabeth Economy, the director for Asia
>>>Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, a New York foreign-policy
>>>think tank. This was the philosophy articulated in 2003 by China's
>>>president, Hu Jintao. China wants to emerge as a global power without
>>>threatening global security. "I think the Chinese have been very careful
>>>and thoughtful about assuaging the fears of the rest of the world," says
>>>Economy. "There's a benign element of the language work: to help educate."
>>>One of the people most responsible for providing that help is Zhang Yi.
>>>Over the past three years, she's been to South Africa, Thailand, Japan, and
>>>Canada on business - not bad for a 24-year-old government employee. Trained
>>>as a lawyer, she coordinates Hanban's volunteer teacher program, selecting,
>>>training, sending, and supporting the agency's pool of 10,000-plus
>>>volunteer instructors. Like missionaries, these full-time teachers receive
>>>no pay, only a small stipend from Hanban. Most are young women who sign on
>>>to see the world - and sow the seeds of Chinese along the way.
>>> Page 1 of 2 next »
>>>As a young cosmopolitan Beijinger, Zhang Yi celebrates Christmas and
>>>prefers coffee over tea, so when we meet one frigid evening in Haidian
>>>(China's Silicon Valley), she picks Starbucks. Zhang marvels at the
>>>remarkable popularity of her native language outside China - it's something
>>>European newspapers like to call "Chinese fever," or hanyu re. Zhang sees
>>>evidence of Chinese fever all the time. In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
>>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
>>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese. She recently had dinner with three
>>>professors from Beijing who had just been in Cuba, where they met students
>>>who were learning Chinese. Zhang is delighted to see the language taking
>>>hold in all these places. "That's why we are feeding the fire," she says.
>>>Back in Chicago, Robert Davis is fanning the flames, but he isn't asking
>>>for volunteers. He wants teachers who'll stay, not leave after a year or
>>>two. So Hanban gave him $70,000 to build a Confucius Institute at Walter
>>>Payton College Prep; it also sends him free software and books. This
>>>spring, the new institute will begin providing grade school instructors
>>>with teaching materials and lesson plans, and it will offer how-to seminars
>>>for parents who want to help their kids with Chinese homework.
>>>If Hanban exports Chinese around the world, then the main American importer
>>>is Gaston Caperton. He looks like Bill Clinton - though thinner - and
>>>speaks, once he gets talking, with an unchecked southern accent.
>>>Caperton caught his own version of Chinese fever on his third visit to the
>>>country in 1994, when he was governor of West Virginia and traveling to
>>>China as part of an international trade mission. Expecting to return to the
>>>raw, poor country he'd seen in the 1980s, he instead found people drinking
>>>Coca-Cola and using computers, and the hotel was as lavish as any in the
>>>West.
>>>Normally you'd find him in New York at the College Board, where he's
>>>president and unofficial promoter for Chinese-language education. But ever
>>>since the AP Chinese course was established, he's been on the road, trying
>>>to solve the shortage of qualified Chinese teachers in the US by prodding
>>>American universities to offer certification programs and persuading
>>>elementary schools and colleges stateside to offer more Chinese language
>>>classes. He's recently been in Beijing, meeting with Hanban officials about
>>>their volunteer-teacher program. But today he's in Shanghai with his wife,
>>>Idit Harel Caperton. She spent the fall teaching software engineering at a
>>>university here and is a consultant and major investor (along with MIT's
>>>Nicholas Negroponte) in a language software company based in China.
>>>The College Board is among the few organizations that can have national
>>>impact in a public school system where most decisions are made at the local
>>>level. So Gaston Caperton hopes that the Chinese AP will spur interest in
>>>the language in high schools - and even trickle down to elementary schools.
>>>"The future is in Asia, and we have to know Asian languages," he says. The
>>>point is to keep the US competitive. Learning Chinese isn't just a way for
>>>Americans to get jobs in China, but for them to do business with Chinese
>>>companies and compete with Mandarin speakers from other countries.
>>>Hanban contacted Caperton in 2004. At first, the Chinese government was
>>>frustrated by the fragmented US public school system. "They said to me, 'In
>>>China, we made English the second language,'" Caperton says. "'So why don't
>>>you just make it happen in the US?'"
>>>Caperton is working to spread Chinese however he can. After becoming
>>>president of the College Board in 1999, he urged the organization to offer
>>>courses and exams in more languages. Given the importance of standardized
>>>tests, decisions by the College Board inevitably filter down to high
>>>schools and even elementary schools. Hanban also wanted to import the
>>>curriculum they'd developed directly into US schools. But Caperton
>>>persuaded them to abandon their one-size-fits-all approach. The Chinese
>>>were "aggressive" about helping, he says. After speaking for a few moments,
>>>Caperton backtracks and changes aggressive to progressive. What's the
>>>difference? "Progressive is moving forward and up. Aggressive is simply
>>>getting what you want."
>>>Alexander Feldman saw this behavior firsthand when, as the US government's
>>>coordinator for international information programs, he was touring a new
>>>library at the State Institute for Islamic Studies of North Sumatera in
>>>Indonesia. On the third floor, an "American corner" was stocked with books,
>>>magazines, and computers with Internet access. Feldman suggested to the
>>>university's chancellor that videoconference equipment be installed in the
>>>empty space next to the corner. That's a good idea, the chancellor said.
>>>But about a month after the American corner was built, the Chinese were
>>>here and proposed a Chinese corner, which would sit right next to yours and
>>>have more resources than yours, he said. "There is a bit of friendly
>>>competition," Feldman mused later. "Competition is a good thing, both in
>>>business and in public diplomacy."
>>>Michael Erard (er...@lucidwork.com) wrote about kosher tech in issue 12.11.
>>> « back Page 2 of 2
>>> Wired Staff | Advertising | Subscribe | Reprints | Customer Service
>>>© Copyright© 1993-2006 The Condé Nast Publications Inc. All rights
>>>reserved.
>>>© Copyright 2006, Lycos, Inc. Lycos is a registered trademark of Lycos,
>>>Inc. All Rights Reserved.
>>>Your use of this website constitutes acceptance of the Lycos Privacy Policy
>>>and Terms & Conditions
>>>=========================DISCLAIMER==========================
>>>This article is copyrighted material, the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.
>>>=========================end, and/or end quote================
>>>-pluto
>
>I know a number of Russians here in the US, who had been born in the US or
>came to the country at a very little age and they don't speak Russian well.
>A few months back I saw a little boy and his dad at a supermarket. The dad
>would speak Russian to the kid but the kid would always speak English back.
>IMO, it sucks when you can't speak the same language with your family
>members. I guess the language problem is still pretty much the problem of
>immigrants. They're not prohibited to speak either language where
>appropriate but they're not supported in learning the new language or the
>language of parents.
>
>Alex
yes, alexi, it looks sounds a bit "ridiculous" isnt it? It is not unusual
to see/hear in malaysia couples of different races speaking to each other
in their own tongues and yet they seem to understand each other !
There was a thread on esperanto here and some dialogues on the usefulness
as a universal language.
Personally, i doubt esperanto would replace all the major languges in the
world for nationalistic and practical reasons. Which nation would abandon
her national language for esperanto? Esperanto is a totally new language
altogether. How can it replace say, english, french, spanish and chinese,
the languages used in the UN for example?
Now, here is one episode i like to share with everyone to advise me:
When i was about 9, i saw and heard my mother "reading" the english version
of King James Bible, St john from the "latin vademecum" I know my mother
knew nothing of the english language, yet from the "latin vademecum" she
read distintively and flawlessly the english passages. Of course she did
not understand a single word of what she read. But when she placed the
chinese version of the same bible together, she understood what she was
reading.
I was amazed that this "latin vademecum" could be the elixir to all the
language reading/learning/understanding. Basically the "latin vademecum" is
a small book of some 90 english/french/german charaters with consonants and
vowels. Any language can be "translated" into the "latin scripts" and
anyone knowing this latin vademecum, could read effortlessly. To understand
what is read is to align the native version to the "latin" .
Alas, i have searched some 40 years now for this book, popularly found in
penang, baptist churches, gospel halls..... ,Externally, the "latin
vademecum" looks like a micro thin new testament.
Where can i find this book?
Does anyone know what i am talking about ? !! ;-)
=========================end, and/or end quote================
-pluto
mb
Herman Rubin wrote:
....
> My parents would not use any language other than English
> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> was not at all common.
mb
Herman Rubin wrote:
....
> My parents would not use any language other than English
> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> was not at all common.
Bob LeChevalier
>Language diversity has been allowed in the US, but has
>not been encouraged at all until recently. There were
>schools which used other languages,
There were public schools that were taught ENTIRELY in other
languages, especially German, up until around WWI. If that isn't
"encouraging diversity", I don't know what is.
lojbab
Lee Sau Dan
Herman> My parents would not use any language other than English
Herman> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
Herman> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
Herman> idea that the children should not be adept in English was
Herman> not at all common.
I have a friend whose both parents speak Cantonese natively. He grew
up in New York City and they speak English at home all the time. He
told me that his parents never spoke Cantonese to the children. He
thinks that his parents kept Cantonese among themselves as a "secret
language". (Maybe, that's the the parents' intention, but at least
that's this friend's impression.) As a result, this Chinese-looking
man speaks English fluently -- with an American accent, can speak a
little bit Mandarin which he learnt at school, but can't speak
Cantonese at all. (He wish he could! I think it's an identity
confusion for him -- a Cantonese descendant not speaking Cantonese.)
In a gathering where both he and his father are present, I could talk
to his father in Cantonese, without this friend understanding a word!
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
>
> IOW, either I'm lying or where I read it is not reputable because it
> disagrees with the Great Peter Daniels?
> Your arrogance continues to astound me with its scope.
No, because it disagrees with the Great William Labov.
Your ignorance combined with the lack of content of your postings
continues to astound all educated readers of sci.lang.
Peter T. Daniels
Guess what. Cultural imperialism is dead. (Or should be.)
Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
dmitri mosier/iowa city ia
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
> care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
We'll stop cross posting when you do, petey-boy
Peter T. Daniels
>
>
> >
> > Everyone: please stop crossposting to soc.culture*. Either they don't
> > care, or a flood of ethnic invective will once again wash over sci.lang.
> We'll stop cross posting when you do, petey-boy
So you're in a.l.a., dimwit?
Herman Rubin
mb <azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Not all immigrants did this, but large numbers did, ...
azyt...@hotmail.com
Herman Rubin wrote:
> In article <1143934705....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> mb <azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> My parents would not use any language other than English
> >> at home unless they had guests who had difficulty with
> >> English. Not all did this, but large numbers, and the
> >> idea that the children should not be adept in English
> >> was not at all common.
>
> >What exactly does that last sentence mean?
>
> Not all immigrants did this, but large numbers did, ...
>
Continue, please.
phog...@abo.fi
AFAIK some of the non-Greek letters of Cyrillic were derived from the
Coptic alphabet.
Peter T. Daniels
There are all sorts of theories about where the extra letters come from,
but the most parsimonious is that they're all adapted from Glagolitic.
Herman Rubin
<azyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Continue, please.
Most immigrants wanted their children to grow up to be
primarily Americans. even if they themselves maintained
the "old country" language or associations. The only
"foreign" language at my elementary school was Pig Latin;
is that strictly American?
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
Ah! I agree! But how few do? So sad!
*+-Diversity *is* good. Absense of the common language is bad.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
Joachim Pense
"parsimonious"? My online dictionary translates it as "sparsam, knausrig"
which means "unwilling to spend money". Again, I seem to have missed a joke
:-(
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels
No joke. If your dictionary doesn't know that theories that obey Occam's
razor, as it were, are called "parsimonious," then you need a better
dictionary!
In the literal sense, it doesn't have a negative overtone; it means
thrifty, economical, not a spendthrift.
António Marques
>>> AFAIK some of the non-Greek letters of Cyrillic were derived from the
>>> Coptic alphabet.
>> There are all sorts of theories about where the extra letters come from,
>> but the most parsimonious is that they're all adapted from Glagolitic.
>
> "parsimonious"? My online dictionary translates it as "sparsam, knausrig"
> which means "unwilling to spend money". Again, I seem to have missed a joke
> :-(
'Parsimony' is standard in english for 'use of the less costly option',
and costly here means involved. Iow, the option that raises the fewest
problems.
--
am
laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
Jim Heckman
On 7-Apr-2006, António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>
wrote in message <4436de53$0$19767$a729...@news.telepac.pt>:
> Joachim Pense wrote:
>
> >>> AFAIK some of the non-Greek letters of Cyrillic were derived from the
> >>> Coptic alphabet.
> >>
> >> There are all sorts of theories about where the extra letters come
> >> from,
> >> but the most parsimonious is that they're all adapted from Glagolitic.
> >
> > "parsimonious"? My online dictionary translates it as "sparsam,
> > knausrig"
> > which means "unwilling to spend money". Again, I seem to have missed a
> > joke
> > :-(
No joke, as António says below. "Parsimonious" here is a perfectly
normal scientific term.
> 'Parsimony' is standard in english for 'use of the less costly option',
> and costly here means involved. Iow, the option that raises the fewest
> problems.
Not so much the one that raises the fewest problems as the one that
uses the fewest arbitrary assumptions. Very similar in practice to
Ockham's/Occam's Razor.
--
Jim Heckman
Joachim Pense
Ok, that would be nothing the dictionary needed to know, because the German
"sparsam" could be used the same way. What happened was that - my eyes
seeing "Glagolitic" - my confused mind substituted it with "Coptic", and
the "Coptic" theory certainly would not be parsimonious in that sense.
Joachim
IbnBatriq
there was no mention of Modern Hebrew and its revival or recreation or
reinvention, whatever you choose to call it. Ben Yehuda was brilliant
in that he kept the features necessary for the language to still be
called Hebrew, but when you dig down into the inner workings of the
language, it is more of a European language than a Semitic one.
zev
news:1144600175.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Ben Yehuda created new words using
Hebrew roots whenever he could.
Not all of his new words stuck,
in some cases people preferred European.
Today spoken Hebrew is full of foreign words
mainly from local Arabic and English.
I don't think many speakers of Hebrew
and some European language would agree
about your "inner workings" contention.
I certainly don't.
It may help to remember that Modern Hebrew
is based more on Mishnaic (Talmudic) Hebrew
than on Biblical Hebrew.
Zev
Peter T. Daniels
Mishnaic H is already considerably Graecized.
Modern H is Semitic in morphology but European (Whorf's "Standard
Average European") in phonology and syntax.
ypark
>>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
he knew written chinese(hanja).
That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
about chinese grammar.
He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
Y. Park
calm_weather
ypark wrote:
> > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
>
> That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> he knew written chinese(hanja).
Your interpretaion is wrong reread the quote below from pluto's
message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
traveller could speak Chinese.
> That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
> about chinese grammar.
> He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
>
>
>
> Y. Park
The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
learn more English grammar.
##minty.
>>>As a young cosmopolitan Beijinger, Zhang Yi celebrates Christmas and
>>>prefers coffee over tea, so when we meet one frigid evening in Haidian
>>>(China's Silicon Valley), she picks Starbucks. Zhang marvels at the
>>>remarkable popularity of her native language outside China - it's something
>>>European newspapers like to call "Chinese fever," or hanyu re. Zhang sees
>>>evidence of Chinese fever all the time. In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
ypark
calm_weather wrote:
> ypark wrote:
> > > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> > >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
> >
> > That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> > he knew written chinese(hanja).
>
> Your interpretaion is wrong
It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
poster.
I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
English.
I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
>reread the quote below from pluto's
> message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> traveller could speak Chinese.
> The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> learn more English grammar.
Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
Go fuck yourself, chinky.
Y. Park
calm_weather
ypark wrote:
> calm_weather wrote:
> > ypark wrote:
> > > > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> > > >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > > > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > > > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
> > >
> > > That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> > > he knew written chinese(hanja).
> >
> > Your interpretaion is wrong
>
> It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
> poster.
No, it depends your your ability to comprehend what you have read.
>
> I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
> English.
> I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
Irrelevant.
>
> >reread the quote below from pluto's
> > message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> > Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> > traveller could speak Chinese.
> > The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> > learn more English grammar.
>
>
> Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
Laughing at yourself is considered a sign of madness.
>
> Go fuck yourself, chinky.
I don't know where you got the latter from.
>
>
> Y. Park
Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
your parents proud.
I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
##minty..
ypark
> > It depends on how much credibility is to be given to the origianl
> > poster.
>
> No, it depends your your ability to comprehend what you have read.
>
> >
> > I am sure that there are Koreans who can speak Chinese but not
> > English.
> > I am also certain that there are Koreans with 6 fingers on each side.
>
> Irrelevant.
Terse and stern.... so you imagine. Hahaha
It is about as corny as geeks' uttering "negative" everytime in order
to sound more "logical".
>
> >
> > >reread the quote below from pluto's
> > > message. Both the people in this little excerpt are female. The actress
> > > Zhang Yi. She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady
> > > traveller could speak Chinese.
> > > The excerpt below uses the female personal pronoun. Perhaps you need to
> > > learn more English grammar.
> >
> >
> > Hahahaha, thank you, Mr. Perfect Grammar.
>
> Laughing at yourself is considered a sign of madness.
>
> >
> > Go fuck yourself, chinky.
>
> I don't know where you got the latter from.
"She was using this example to showing that the Korean lady..."
What else could you be? You are exhibiting exactly the same pattern
of grammatical errors as the thread-starter.
And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
your buddy P Daniels.
> Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
> your parents proud.
You know.... you should not smack-talk in ESL.
>
> I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
But you are quite good at implosive self-fucking which is possible
only with dicks less than an inch long. That is what I suggested to
you.
Y. Park
calm_weather
For the benefit of an utter idiot like you, here's your message of
Wednesday April 12
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/203b438e43ac3a13?dmode=source
ypark wrote:
> > >>>From: pluto <pl...@yahoo.com.sg>
> >>>>.... In Bangkok, her waiters spoke
> > >>>Chinese. In Jakarta, she helped a Korean traveler who couldn't speak
> > >>>Indonesian or English, only Chinese.
>
> That is sublimely funny. The most charitable interpretation is that
> he knew written chinese(hanja).
> That would not have done much good as he probably knew next to nothing
> about chinese grammar.
> He probably pretended to understand out of politeness.
>
>
>
> Y. Park
You criticised someone else's grasp of chinese grammar, yet your
English grammar or comprehension is lacking.
The extract from the original article was about the actress Zhang Yi.
By the very use of 'actress' any reader should have known that she was
a woman, and the appropriate pronoun should have been used. Why do you
consider her to be 'he'?
>
> And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
> your buddy P Daniels.
This is about your hypocrisy, Y. Park.
>
> > Y.Park the ignorant racist, and a stupid cunt, the qualities that made
> > your parents proud.
>
> You know.... you should not smack-talk in ESL.
>
> >
> > I'd tell you to fuck yourself, but you don't have a dick long enough.
>
> But you are quite good at implosive self-fucking which is possible
> only with dicks less than an inch long. That is what I suggested to
> you.
>
>
> Y. Park
How lame. You ought to talk to sukgeun jung, your fellow korean
transvestite, as neither of you can tell gender difference.
##minty..
ypark
calm_weather wrote:
> You criticised someone else's grasp of chinese grammar,
???????????!??!!!!!!!!?????!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!?!!???????????
>yet your English grammar or comprehension is lacking.
>
> The extract from the original article was about the actress Zhang Yi.
> By the very use of 'actress' any reader should have known that she was
> a woman, and the appropriate pronoun should have been used. Why do you
> consider her to be 'he'?
>
> >
> > And man,..... don't ever talk about grammar. Yours just sucks. Ask
> > your buddy P Daniels.
>
> This is about your hypocrisy, Y. Park.
This chinky is obviously hurt.
It's FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
I doubt anyone eles is confused here but by "he", I meant the Korean
traveler. I certainly was not criticzing the Korean traveler in
anyway. I was merely poking fun at the misplaced ethnic pride of the
Chinese posters.
And no, there is no chinese program in Korean middle schools possibly
except some specialized ones. It is rather clear that the "article"
confuses chinese characters with Chinese as a language. The former is
taught and the latter is not, possibly except as an optional secondary
foreign language in high school.
Y. Park
P.S. Please continue to entertain us with your Chinglish.
António Marques
> Ben Yehuda created new words using
> Hebrew roots whenever he could.
> Not all of his new words stuck,
> in some cases people preferred European.
> Today spoken Hebrew is full of foreign words
> mainly from local Arabic and English.
>
> I don't think many speakers of Hebrew
> and some European language would agree
> about your "inner workings" contention.
> I certainly don't.
>
> It may help to remember that Modern Hebrew
> is based more on Mishnaic (Talmudic) Hebrew
> than on Biblical Hebrew.
Is this a poem?
zev
> zev wrote:
<snipped>
>> It may help to remember that Modern Hebrew
>> is based more on Mishnaic (Talmudic) Hebrew
>> than on Biblical Hebrew.
>
> Is this a poem?
Wasn't meant to be ;-)
Zev
Herman Rubin
>> Ben Yehuda created new words using
>> Hebrew roots whenever he could.
>> Not all of his new words stuck,
>> in some cases people preferred European.
>> Today spoken Hebrew is full of foreign words
>> mainly from local Arabic and English.
I know of Greek words in Biblical Hebrew.
There are words of suspected Egyptian origin,
and words which appear unrelated to anything
in any Semitic language.
Despite many efforts to the contrary, most
languages use some version of the word
"telephone" rather than a direct translation
into their language, such as "fernsprecher".
>> I don't think many speakers of Hebrew
>> and some European language would agree
>> about your "inner workings" contention.
>> I certainly don't.
>> It may help to remember that Modern Hebrew
>> is based more on Mishnaic (Talmudic) Hebrew
>> than on Biblical Hebrew.
>Is this a poem?
--
António Marques
>> zev wrote:
> <snipped>
>>> It may help to remember that Modern Hebrew
>>> is based more on Mishnaic (Talmudic) Hebrew
>>> than on Biblical Hebrew.
>>
>> Is this a poem?
>
> Wasn't meant to be ;-)
> Zev
Hey, all the lines above those three were very fine too.
zev
news:e28h4c$2b...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
> In article <4446cf27$0$24652$a729...@news.telepac.pt>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio_Marques?= <m....@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>zev wrote:
>
>>> Ben Yehuda created new words using
>>> Hebrew roots whenever he could.
>>> Not all of his new words stuck,
>>> in some cases people preferred European.
>>> Today spoken Hebrew is full of foreign words
>>> mainly from local Arabic and English.
>
> I know of Greek words in Biblical Hebrew.
There's Aramaic, even in Genesis,
but I don't remember seeing Greek.
Got any examples (same for Egyptian)?
phog...@abo.fi
zev wrote:
> "IbnBatriq" <robd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144600175.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> > It's funny that with all this talk about bringing a language to life,
> > there was no mention of Modern Hebrew and its revival or recreation or
> > reinvention, whatever you choose to call it. Ben Yehuda was brilliant
> > in that he kept the features necessary for the language to still be
> > called Hebrew, but when you dig down into the inner workings of the
> > language, it is more of a European language than a Semitic one.
>
> Ben Yehuda created new words using
> Hebrew roots whenever he could.
> Not all of his new words stuck,
> in some cases people preferred European.
> Today spoken Hebrew is full of foreign words
> mainly from local Arabic and English.
>
> I don't think many speakers of Hebrew
> and some European language would agree
> about your "inner workings" contention.
> I certainly don't.
Well, my Hebrew is much worse than I would prefer it to be, but I guess
the most conspicuous Europeanization has happened in the verbal system,
which has reassigned the functions of "European" (maybe Yiddish?)
tenses to forms that were more like aspects or participles in Biblical
Hebrew. The comparative studies I have found on the Net strongly
suggested that in other respects Hebrew has not been much more
Europeanized than contemporary literary Arabic.
However, for me as someone who is fluent in Polish and has a command of
Russian, it is much more interesting that there are obvious Polish and
Russian loan-translations in everyday Hebrew. It would surely be a rich
field of study to do research into Slavic elements in contemporary
Hebrew. I hope somebody will write a thesis about "Modern Hebrew as an
Eastern European language". On second thought, I reckon somebody has
already written it.
Peter T. Daniels
His name is Paul Wexler, and his bibliography is considerable.
He has not found any converts.
zev
news:1145657819.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Many of the early Zionists were indeed Polish
(living not far from a line drawn from Minsk to Pinsk)
but I would be surprised to learn of Slavic
'loan-translations' which weren't actually
derived from Yiddish or Russian.
Can you enlighten me?
phog...@abo.fi
Oh come on. Paul Wexler is this gentleman with an obsession about
Yiddish being relexified Sorbian? I really do not think it is him I
mean.
phog...@abo.fi
Well, the first example that springs to my mind is ma ha-sha'a? = what
time is it? To me, it looks very much like the Polish "która
godzina?", word for word "which hour?" My Russian is, as I told you,
definitely worse than my Polish, but the last time I spoke Russian to
anyone, "what time it is?" was in that language "skol'ko vremeni?" =
"how much time?"
Christopher Culver
> My Russian is, as I told you, definitely worse than my Polish, but
> the last time I spoke Russian to anyone, "what time it is?" was in
> that language "skol'ko vremeni?" = "how much time?"
Russians say "kotorij chas", literally "which hour/clock?"
Christopher Culver
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
Peter T. Daniels
Regardless of what you think you mean, among his claims is that Modern
Hebrew is relexified Yiddish (not that Yiddish is relexified Sorbian --
he simply replaces the Gmc background with a Slavic one).
I don't find the Yiddish > Hebrew step all that remarkable, since ModH
has Semitic morphology but European (SAE) phonology and syntax.
Herman Rubin
<phog...@abo.fi> wrote:
>zev wrote:
>> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
>> news:1145657819.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > zev wrote:
>> >> "IbnBatriq" <robd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1144600175.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
.................
>Well, the first example that springs to my mind is ma ha-sha'a? =3D what
>time is it? To me, it looks very much like the Polish "kt=F3ra
>godzina?", word for word "which hour?" My Russian is, as I told you,
>definitely worse than my Polish, but the last time I spoke Russian to
>anyone, "what time it is?" was in that language "skol'ko vremeni?" =3D
>"how much time?"
My old Hebrew dictionary gives sha'a as Mishnaic or Talmudic.
phog...@abo.fi
Well, I think I have read a paper by him which effectively stated
Yiddish was relexified Sorbian, or a relexified Slavonic variety akin
to Sorbian. He built his theory on the word "zayde" for "grandfather",
which is obviously Slavonic but cannot be "placed" anywhere else than
Lower Sorbian.
>
> I don't find the Yiddish > Hebrew step all that remarkable, since ModH
> has Semitic morphology but European (SAE) phonology and syntax.
No, THAT step is not remarkable at all, but I would like to know more
about the development of Hebrew syntax in the different strains and
styles of medieval literature in Hebrew before judging. But as far as
phonology goes, I think there are varieties of Hebrew spoken in Israel
which retain a very Semitic consonantism; the gripping hand is that the
high-prestige varieties are those spoken with a SAE phonology.
phog...@abo.fi
Christopher Culver wrote:
> phog...@abo.fi writes:
> > My Russian is, as I told you, definitely worse than my Polish, but
> > the last time I spoke Russian to anyone, "what time it is?" was in
> > that language "skol'ko vremeni?" = "how much time?"
>
> Russians say "kotorij chas", literally "which hour/clock?"
Do they? I always thought my tendency to say "kotoryj chas?" was my
Polish influencing my Russian.
phog...@abo.fi
Herman Rubin wrote:
> In article <1145739863....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote:
>
> >zev wrote:
> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
> >> news:1145657819.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> > zev wrote:
> >> >> "IbnBatriq" <robd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1144600175.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> .................
>
> >Well, the first example that springs to my mind is ma ha-sha'a? =3D what
> >time is it? To me, it looks very much like the Polish "kt=F3ra
> >godzina?", word for word "which hour?" My Russian is, as I told you,
> >definitely worse than my Polish, but the last time I spoke Russian to
> >anyone, "what time it is?" was in that language "skol'ko vremeni?" =3D
> >"how much time?"
>
> My old Hebrew dictionary gives sha'a as Mishnaic or Talmudic.
I meant the construction, not the individual words.
Peter T. Daniels
> > > Oh come on. Paul Wexler is this gentleman with an obsession about
> > > Yiddish being relexified Sorbian? I really do not think it is him I
> > > mean.
> >
> > Regardless of what you think you mean, among his claims is that Modern
> > Hebrew is relexified Yiddish (not that Yiddish is relexified Sorbian --
> > he simply replaces the Gmc background with a Slavic one).
>
> Well, I think I have read a paper by him which effectively stated
> Yiddish was relexified Sorbian, or a relexified Slavonic variety akin
> to Sorbian. He built his theory on the word "zayde" for "grandfather",
> which is obviously Slavonic but cannot be "placed" anywhere else than
> Lower Sorbian.
I guess it comes down to what he thinks he means by "relexified," vs.
what the general creolist community means by it ...
> > I don't find the Yiddish > Hebrew step all that remarkable, since ModH
> > has Semitic morphology but European (SAE) phonology and syntax.
>
> No, THAT step is not remarkable at all, but I would like to know more
> about the development of Hebrew syntax in the different strains and
> styles of medieval literature in Hebrew before judging. But as far as
> phonology goes, I think there are varieties of Hebrew spoken in Israel
> which retain a very Semitic consonantism; the gripping hand is that the
> high-prestige varieties are those spoken with a SAE phonology.
BH verbal syntax (waw-consecutives, aspect in general) was quite dead by
the time the last canonical book, Qohelet, was written, and there's no
trace of it in Mishnaic (whatever its status vis-à-vis spoken vs. only
written any more may have been).
Surely the generation of Yemeni Jews, who were the ones that used Arabic
pronunciations of Hebrew letters, that made `aliyah in 1948 are all gone
by now, and their deviant pronunciation is by now no longer to be heard.
Herman Rubin
<phog...@abo.fi> wrote:
.................
I do not see the expression which literally means
"what is the hour" as that peculiar. Also, "sha'a"
has the meaning of "time" as well as hour. There
are likely to be many languages with this construction.
phog...@abo.fi
Herman Rubin kirjoitti:
> In article <1145824512....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote:
>
> >Herman Rubin wrote:
> >> In article <1145739863....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote:
>
> >> >zev wrote:
> >> >> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1145657819.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> >> > zev wrote:
> >> >> >> "IbnBatriq" <robd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:1144600175.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> .................
>
> >> >Well, the first example that springs to my mind is ma ha-sha'a? =3D what
> >> >time is it? To me, it looks very much like the Polish "kt=F3ra
> >> >godzina?", word for word "which hour?" My Russian is, as I told you,
> >> >definitely worse than my Polish, but the last time I spoke Russian to
> >> >anyone, "what time it is?" was in that language "skol'ko vremeni?" =3D
> >> >"how much time?"
>
> >> My old Hebrew dictionary gives sha'a as Mishnaic or Talmudic.
>
> >I meant the construction, not the individual words.
>
> I do not see the expression which literally means
> "what is the hour" as that peculiar. Also, "sha'a"
> has the meaning of "time" as well as hour. There
> are likely to be many languages with this construction.
That is as may be, but there are also languages with distinctly
different constructions, cf. Finnish and Swedish ("what is the
clock?"), German and Icelandic ("how late is it?"). To me at least,
"what is the hour" does seem peculiar enough, and I do not think it is
in any sense the obvious or default setting.
sig...@binet.is
phog...@abo.fi wrote:
> > I do not see the expression which literally means
> > "what is the hour" as that peculiar. Also, "sha'a"
> > has the meaning of "time" as well as hour. There
> > are likely to be many languages with this construction.
>
> That is as may be, but there are also languages with distinctly
> different constructions, cf. Finnish and Swedish ("what is the
> clock?"), German and Icelandic ("how late is it?").
It is "what is the clock" (hvað er klukkan?) in Icelandic as well,
"how late is it" does not sound familiar.
Philipp Strathausen
news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> Church.
You should have a look at how the Jewish community has started to revive
Hebrew again, about one hundred years ago, and how they managed to create
new words for daily life, only by using root letters with a similar meaning
from the Bible. Very impressive. Even until today Hebrew has successfully
maintained its unique character. They don't even use the word "computer",
but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
machine" :-) )
Philipp
Philipp Strathausen
> What a dystopian view of the future. For me, the ideal would be that
> in 500 years Esperanto is long dead, English has ceased being the
> international language with nothing replacing it, and a perfect and
> enjoyable Babel willl have descended upon the world.
Well, somehow Mandarin is more likely to be this new babel-language :-)
But Spanish still has a chance...
Philipp
Herman Rubin
>Philipp
This is not always done, or the words were lost. Certainly,
farm carts had axles, even 3500 years ago. Yet the current
Hebrew word for "rear axle" is "bekeks", and for front axle
the word is that for rear axle modified to indicate front
or early. There are other examples.
However, much of that is done. And the same problem arises
in other languages; just as English has added words derived
from Greek or Latin, the word "Telefon" has replaced the
native "Fernsprecher" in German.
news13...@hotmail.com
Philipp Strathausen tulis:
> Hello.
>
> news13...@hotmail.com <news13...@hotmail.com> schrubte:
> > Esperanto, Klingon and Lojban communities are not successful because
> > most of these artificial languages have a major flaw - they have no
> > unique appeal. I will provide some excellent ways to bring your
> > language to life. For purposes of example, I will use the Coptic
> > language, which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox
> > Church.
>
> You should have a look at how the Jewish community has started to revive
> Hebrew again, about one hundred years ago, and how they managed to create
> new words for daily life, only by using root letters with a similar meaning
> from the Bible.
I will take your advise :) I can see already Hebrew is a good example
of a dead language brought back to life and in fact it is quite similar
to Coptic as both were liturgical languages. Also, being a Semitic
language, Hebrew has an advantage for every word in its lexicon derives
from a three consonant root, and so there is a lot of room for new
words.
> Very impressive.
Has anyone on alt.language.artificial created a semitic language
before? If yes, what was your experience? Semitic languages usually
have three consonant roots, for example S-L-M and suppose we have 5
vowels (a,e,i,o,u) so 5X5X5X5 = 625 words can be coined from S-L-M.
> Even until today Hebrew has successfully maintained its unique character.
> They don't even use the word "computer",
> but "mahshev" instead, which is derived from "thinking". (like "thinking
> machine" :-) )
>
Hebrew has been very successful since it does not borrow words (ie loan
words) from other languages like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
Arabic. Borrowing of words creates a creol. To be a unique people with
a unique identity one needs a unique language and a standards body, ie
Hebrew Language Academy.
In fact, if Coptic nationalism were to be successful, we should emulate
the Jews by not using Arabic words at all for Arabic is related to the
Islamic ideology. Like the Jews who set up a Hebrew Language Academy,
we should set up a Coptic Language Academy to standardise the Egyptian
language.
Lee Sau Dan
news13102005> Hebrew has been very successful since it does not
news13102005> borrow words (ie loan words) from other languages
news13102005> like English, Malay, Mandarin, Spanish or
news13102005> Arabic.
What are the words for "tea" and "silk" in Hebrew?
news13102005> Borrowing of words creates a creol.
Nonsense! You've presented a necessary condition as though it were a
sufficient one. Maybe, you need some lessons on logic.
English has borrowed lots of words. Does that make English a creol?
In the Japanese lexicon, around 10% (or even fewer) of the words are
native Japanese. Others are borrowed. So, Japanese must be a creol?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Ruud Harmsen
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
>In the Japanese lexicon, around 10% (or even fewer) of the words are
>native Japanese. Others are borrowed. So, Japanese must be a creol?
That's one of the theories, yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language_classification
===
As for its relation to other languages, there are several theories,
presented in descending order of probability:
[3 theories skipped; RH]
Creole hypothesis
Japanese is a creole language. Phonological similarities and
geographical proximity to Austronesian languages have led to the
theory that Japanese may be a kind of creole, with an Altaic
substratum and an Austronesian superstratum, or vice versa. However,
different scholars have come up with lists of proposed
Japanese-Austronesian cognates that do not agree with each other. This
is a bad sign, because different scholars, working independently,
should come up with similar results. Furthermore, the number of words
possibly identified as Austronesian is extremely small.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com