DPS Classes: Why should I heal you?
Thomas J. Boschloo
heal yourself?
Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
to the group we are in?
There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
than other classes do?
If anybody knows,
Thomas
--
"If want aggro so badly, you can keep it"
Alex Mars
were recruited as the main party healer, then you better heal people or
you'll get booted and word will go out that you are useless. If you
were not recruited as the main healer and it was agreed that you were
going to be providing some other service to the party then your point
might be valid.
Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
sinking their teeth in your ass.
Catriona R
wrote:
>When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
>heal yourself?
And if the tank is useless? Or there is AOE? And you do realise bandages
are of no use when you have a damage over time debuff? Plus that they have
a 1 minute cooldown?
>Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
>on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
>to the group we are in?
Chain healing is rarely needed, a heal here and there is normal and
expected of any good healer. I would never group with a healer who refused
to heal the dps, as that means a group that will wipe.
>Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
>large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
>than other classes do?
No-one's said large percentage, just some reasonable consideration. It's
clear you've never played at higher levels, if you had you'd know that
there are many many cases where the dps classes *will* take damage and will
die without healing - not through their fault but through the way the
encounters are designed. And if you let all the dps die through your
stubbornness, the entire group will wipe because there's no longer enough
damage being done to kill the mobs.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
> sinking their teeth in your ass.
This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
Some ?noob? players just seem to think that out dps-ing everybody else
including the tank makes them 133t. I don't like to play these games and
let them die after a while.
Usually the groups I am in do much better without that awesome killing
power of theirs. I can't imagine I am the only healer in this newsgroup
having experienced this.
Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
Thomas
--
"If you want aggro that badly, you can keep it"
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> And you do realise bandages
> are of no use when you have a damage over time debuff?
Hehe, found that out in gnomer with my rl mage friend. We were out of
combat (at least I was) and he had been using arcane blasts and was kind
of hurt. So he tells me 'HEAL'. So I say 'EAT' and he dies of radiation
poisoning.
I used to try harder to keep him alive than the main tank because I
noticed his connection dropping sometimes when we died too often in a
row :-)
It is true that some mobs hit more than just their current target. But
basically I do claim to be a better healer because of not taking all
crap from dps classes and acting upon draining the groups healing pool
(by letting them die the next time they get my attention by grabbing
more than their share of aggro)
I mean. If you got crappy gear or are low level, how did you get that
much aggro! If you got good gear and a high level you shouldn't be dying
more than the other dps-ers either!
It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
because I happen to see the 'whole picture' more than most priest seem
to do (or who are afraid to get flak from the dps classes they group
with and get kicked out of parties)
I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
I did get flak from dps classes and a paladin at one point and I think
we did much better after they had left. Sometimes even without a
replacement for them!
Thomas
--
"If you want aggro that badly, you can keep it"
Franky
> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
why should the tanks bitch with you? at least t h e y get heals...
I wouldn't group with you... very selfish attitude..
Thomas J. Boschloo
>> It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
>> I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
>> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
>
> why should the tanks bitch with you? at least t h e y get heals...
Maybe because I let everyone die that they cannot keep aggro on? My
guess is that these tanks agree with me these particular toons should
die. Makes they job a whole lot easier (Disclaimer: I have never tanked
as a warrior but did as a druid)
> I wouldn't group with you... very selfish attitude..
Funny YOU should say this because it is in the interest of the group
that I am doing this.
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
Dr. Richard Cranium
1.) party is 49 thru 55, Aliase is lvl 51 rogue dps/daggers and or dps
rapiers (depends on current monster, as to what Aliase will pack going in)
everybody else is lower levels.
Lvl 55 is tank - puller , 1st contact. Aliase does her stealth back lube
job on the monster within micro seconds of lvl 55 tanking.
2.) at this point I assume Aliase becomes the off-tank because both lvl 55
and lvl 51 (rogue) are dealing major damage to monster.
3.) main tank is heavey slow damage dealer, so while his weapon is charging,
Aliase with dps weapons is dancing all over the monster with quick dps and
interfering with monsters attack on tank. Correct me if I am wrong here
about what Aliase should be doing after lube job - but this is usually the
scenario for Aliase.
Successful in the team and success for the team.
4.) Healer knows what his role is and let me tell you, Aliase gets the
heals. Maybe not as much as the tank (sure seems like it) - which leads me
to think Aliase must be the off-tank. Never heard a healer complain that
Aliase is expecting to much healing - mostly because Aliase doesn't ask for
heals ? Aliase kicks ash, and contributes to party success (i have never
heard different).
Your post here is the first nit I've heard about "selective" healing.
You stand there and watch Aliase go down (ko) and I bet the wipes come more
often, and you don't get to share in the victory goodies, as we all venture
back from the graveyard huh.
What is your name again ? What server ? maybe I not go party with you. You
need the exp, I can get it anywhere.
Hope this helps,
** no fate **
Dracman
Aliase female hume rogue lvl 52 PVE
Zebby female NE Huntress lvl 51 / Aja nightstalker cat lvl 51 (bite,prowl)
PVE
"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
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Its often safer just to let some dps people die.
Too much healing will pull aggro onto yourself and likely cause a wipe for
the whole group.
Ashen Shugar
something like...
>When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
>heal yourself?
Bandages are all too easily interrupted and take a while before they
can be reused. Tanks can only do so much about getting agro off other
players. If they have to spend too much time running after mobs that
have gone to chew on someone else, they become that much more likely
to lose agro from the mobs that they have. Not a problem if there's
only one mob.
>Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
>on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
>to the group we are in?
>
>There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
>himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
>if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
>
>Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
>large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
>than other classes do?
>
>If anybody knows,
Well, you do have a point. A large percentage of your mana and
casting time should be for the tank, not the DPS classes. But they do
deserve a percentage of your mana and casting time. I know the
problems you're talking about though. The people that try get in the
most damage during a fight. They don't give the tank time to build up
any hate before they start trying to nuke the mob. And they'll
probably run on to the next mob and pull it before anyone's had a
chance to catch their breath. Yes, some people deserve to die. But
played well, you want to keep your dps classes around as long as
possible, and heal them as necessary, because all too often it's not
going to be their fault they need the healing. One fight that comes
directly to mind is the Princess in Maraudon. When she sleeps or
fears or whatever your tank, she's going to be going after someone
else then until the tank can recover and get agro back. Then there's
also Herod in SM. When he goes into his whirlwind attack, any rogues
standing behind him sinking a dagger into his back are going to get
hurt. I've been there. In that case, even without gaining agro,
they're going to need healing. If they're quick enough backing off,
it won't require much, but you still want them back in the fight
rather than standing around waiting for a bandage to finish (which
even if they do use, will only do for the first time).
Still, ideally, most of the time they should be fine with just a renew
every now and then unless they don't care about gaining agro and
actually seem to be trying to get it.
Oh, and that's another place where dps classes are going to want
healing. Doan and his Arcane Explosions. Though ranged DPS can
possibly keep out of range of it.
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
U-Boat
controlling his DPS. The tank was trying really hard to keep aggro but
the rogue would continually steal it. I was one of the healers in my
group and my friend was the main healer, a priest. We were getting
annoyed by the fact that he would constantly pull aggro off the tank
and make the tank's job harder so we agreed not to heal him. After a
few deaths, most DPS classes realise that better aggro management is a
good thing.
You only have to look at the 2 main DPS classes, rogue and mage. If
either of them pull aggro, they die and in most cases no amount of
healing is going to keep them upright. Aggro management for a DPS class
is a lesson that some have to learn the hard way. When playing my
warrior I had to yell at someone to control their DPS because they were
continually wiping the group. Eventually I found out he had no concept
of Aggro Management so I taught him.
As far as DPS classes go, throw em a heal if they're sensible. But if
they're just being stupid and continually stealing aggro from the tank,
I let them die.
Doc
> Alex Mars wrote:
> [snip]
>> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
>> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
>> sinking their teeth in your ass.
>
> This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
> aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
You are going to open yourself up to all kinds of criticism doing that. When
a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to be
a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs is
a HoT.
> Some ?noob? players just seem to think that out dps-ing everybody else
> including the tank makes them 133t. I don't like to play these games and
> let them die after a while.
*Everybody* but healers out-dps tanks... and that is as it should be:).
I'm Rogue leader and core raider for our guild, and in most raids I end up
on top of the damage out meter. Yet I have a hard time pulling aggro from
our MT or OT. Why? Because they are very good at what they do. If a DPSer
pulls aggro from a tank, after letting the tank get a little playtime with
the mob first, then the tank is probably the one you should be blaming. If
the DPSer is off-tanking, then you need to keep the heals up on him, if you
try to get the tank to tap each mob (ie:- do his own off-tanking) then you
are going to pull aggro with your first heal.
> Usually the groups I am in do much better without that awesome killing
> power of theirs. I can't imagine I am the only healer in this newsgroup
> having experienced this.
A party without any DPS.. what a novel idea!
> Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
> wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
> normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
My advice is for you to go with the flow and see what you think later on
when you are more experienced.
--
Doc
'Virtute et armis!'
Llane server
60 Warrior
60 Rogue
60 Hunter
dt Kruger
Rather kick someone if they're causing problems. As a tank, I would
prefer not waiting for someone to corpserun. If you let them
die....we'll then you're not really doing your best, but don't worry,
I'll give you the courtesy of a kick, instead of "letting you die".
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Rather kick someone if they're causing problems. As a tank, I would
> prefer not waiting for someone to corpserun. If you let them
> die....we'll then you're not really doing your best, but don't worry,
> I'll give you the courtesy of a kick, instead of "letting you die".
The way I see it is that these clowns go mess up some other pickup group
if I kick them. Or they go announce that they don't want to group with
me anymore 'because I suck'. And one day they might turn level 60
despite never having defeated an end boss without tanking it themselves
at a high level (the horror!)
I give them the chance to learn and if they keep their DPS down they
will turn out to be fine DPS classes in the end! IMHO most DPSers get it
after one or two bosses. It is either that or they kick themselves :-)
[this group s0xors!]
I can take their little tirades when they go because I know how well we
will do without them. And if we need another DPS class, they are usually
easy to get.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:44df92b3$0$4529$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>> Alex Mars wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
>>> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
>>> sinking their teeth in your ass.
>> This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
>> aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
>
> You are going to open yourself up to all kinds of criticism doing that.
I noticed. Both ingame and here ;-)
> When
> a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
> seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
> just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to be
> a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs is
> a HoT.
When a rogue stays at 25% for 20 seconds he got no aggro and I will heal
him. It is the constant full out DPS types I do not heal, and they solve
the groups problems within 20 seconds if they don't get heals. And they
will shout and rant at me because of it. And the tank will love me for
it (I hope)
> *Everybody* but healers out-dps tanks... and that is as it should be:).
>
> I'm Rogue leader and core raider for our guild, and in most raids I end up
> on top of the damage out meter. Yet I have a hard time pulling aggro from
> our MT or OT. Why? Because they are very good at what they do. If a DPSer
> pulls aggro from a tank, after letting the tank get a little playtime with
> the mob first, then the tank is probably the one you should be blaming. If
> the DPSer is off-tanking, then you need to keep the heals up on him, if you
> try to get the tank to tap each mob (ie:- do his own off-tanking) then you
> are going to pull aggro with your first heal.
I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
shunder comes, you can do another. Or you can tag multiple mobs as a
caster and soften them up a bit. Or my druid would do a fairy fire after
two hits by the tank (you get a feel for this in small groups).
That seems more mana efficient while not getting you aggro.
Why didn't the level 60 raid group do such a thing?
>> Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
>> wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
>> normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
>
> In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
That is kind of cool :-) And when the DPSers die, the healers will die,
but not all of them! It just might work <g>
> My advice is for you to go with the flow and see what you think later on
> when you are more experienced.
I rather ask here than get flak in an instance. I think that if the tank
is good I will let DPS classes die if I feel they badly aspire to do so.
Kind regards,
WheeZ50
> When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
> heal yourself?
DOT's
Common courtesy
Bad Luck
A real good offtank pickup that otherwise would've gone to me directly
disabling my ability to heal mt.
Just a couple I can think of
> Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my
> mana on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and
> dangerous to the group we are in?
If they pull agro I'm checking the mt. Is he / she any good? If not,
warn the others and go slow on the dps... If they don't, let them die
once and warn them again immediately.
If they're at 30-60% but in no immediate danger and you're low on mana
while the fight is going on - just let them be there. They'd better
watch out.
> There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
> himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs,
> but if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
This is a Duh...
> Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy
> of a large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do
> more damage than other classes do?
For some it's a way of life. First thing I'm telling them - a large
repairbill is part of your way of life as well. I don't really mind
is, except when there's no resser and I'm main healer. Then it's large
repairbill, corpseruns and loads of anger with your partymembers.
And yes, I did a baronrun making sure noone died...
If you're main healer and certain people ask disproportionally much
mana (healing), tell them. If they don't adapt their playing style,
live with it. If they start to whine, tell 'em about healing in very
big detail. Be able to account for every 300 mana you spent usually
shuts them up *very* well.
Having been mainhealer on both pally and druid, I can tell you some
people just moan and bitch because I'm not a priest. I usually point
out they're not another class as well - ask warlocks for a drink,
mages for a summon/banish or rogues to stay aback and rangedps. It
always works. I seldom have trouble with tanks, which proves me that
I'm not all that bad a healer.
Erineveron / Eyeyun @dragonblight / EU
--
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
(vrij naar) ~Oscar Wilde~
Rene
That wouldn't be the (in)famous "THAT'S A FUCKING FIFTY DKP MINUS" show,
wouldnt' it ? ;)
Onyxia is a bit special, no snap-aggro mechanism works with her and she
additionally sheds aggro by using the "Wing Buffet" effect. This
effectively requires some special approach which often includes a slow
dps start after an extensive no-dps tank-phase.
She's quite aggro critical, especially since she has 2 programmed events
on which she wipes the aggro table completely and is very dangerous for
everyone not able to withstand large amounts of physical and fire damage
combined.
What you see is the resulting tactics to deal with that as best as possible.
I don't know which part of molten core you saw, there are essentially
few to none bosses where we do only light dps. After the tank got his
target firm on him, it's generally full dps on for everyone.
> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
> shunder comes, you can do another. Or you can tag multiple mobs as a
> caster and soften them up a bit. Or my druid would do a fairy fire after
> two hits by the tank (you get a feel for this in small groups).
>
> That seems more mana efficient while not getting you aggro.
>
> Why didn't the level 60 raid group do such a thing?
Because Onyxia can sort of negate sunder armors. And no snap-aggro
ability. So think about this, how are you going to keep aggro in this
case ? Only by creating more threat than anyone else, which means be and
remain top on the hate liste by damage and the few aggro generating
abilities that still work, but are reset somewhat whenever Onyxia does
her Wing Buffet.
> I rather ask here than get flak in an instance. I think that if the tank
> is good I will let DPS classes die if I feel they badly aspire to do so.
Perma-Aggrostealing DPS classes _are_ a problem though. There's the
exception of mages on bomb duty which just need to be heal spammed in
some specific cases, but generally DPS classes need to learn to be top
DPS without ever stealing aggro.
If rogues for example lose HP because of AoE effects or some such, they
get the same amount of healing like everyone else. However on most of
the time, they are completely on their own. In some raid encounters,
they are flat told that they will receive exactly 0 healing at all.
Their job then is to make as much damage as they can without ever
drawing aggro and to retreat into a safe position once they took enough
damage and bandage themselves, then repeat.
In other encounters they get priority healing (Vaelastrasz), often by a
special group setup (4 rogues, 1 priest spamming either group heal or
holy nova). Most often though rogues need to care for themselves and it
is not a problem. If a fight is easy enough for the group, they do get
some healing thrown in here and there.
It is however not just rogues. Every DPS class must be able to control
their aggro in normal situations. Aggro loss off the warrior is
generally bad, no matter who was it (depending also on the warrior in
question of course). But I presume we speak about an able and competent
tank that will glue any single-mob to him eternally if must be.
In the split-second decisions when stuff goes wrong or already did it
always depends on many factors. A surviving dps'er could make the
difference. The better you know your people, the better you can decide
who is expendable and who isn't. A mage with very low mana seldom
receives a heal from me in such a situation when there's a rogue I could
heal up instead.
CU
René
Marypop
"Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
ok ... as a tank I can answer !
I don't care if my life goes down (at least if I don't die) please heal that
rogue there who is dpsing and offtanking in this pack of mobs ^^
Cause if you don't there is no way i will keep all the aggro from you and we
will kill everybody here.
txs ^^
Babe Bridou
Thomas J. Boschloo a écrit :
> I can take their little tirades when they go because I know how well we
> will do without them. And if we need another DPS class, they are usually
> easy to get.
....
Well, sorry but you're wrong.
What you'll need at higher level is a damage dealer to do the killing
for you, outside of instances. Do the killing, escort you, spend time
protecting you, sharing the loot with you. Making money, getting
grinding quests done, upgrading your reputation.
And when you are in need of that, I assure you, available damage
dealers are scarce, very, very scarce... because they don't need you to
do that kind of business, and all you'll be doing is leeching from
them.
If you're going to be a healer, think about it. My hunter kills stuff
more than 5 times faster than my priest. The last time I was out with
my priest I was attacked by 3 mobs of 3 levels below me (trolls in Zul
Mashar). I was all clad in epic gear, and I'm not kidding, killing them
took me 15 minutes. I would have died if not for my clearly superior
mana regeneration.
I remember when I was 55 with my hunter, I used to breeze through the
whole village at least twice during the same 15 minutes.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
>> Doc wrote:
>>> When
>>> a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
>>> seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
>>> just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to
>>> be
>>> a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs
>>> is
>>> a HoT.
>> When a rogue stays at 25% for 20 seconds he got no aggro and I will heal
>> him. It is the constant full out DPS types I do not heal, and they solve
>> the groups problems within 20 seconds if they don't get heals. And they
>> will shout and rant at me because of it. And the tank will love me for
>> it (I hope)
>
> ok ... as a tank I can answer !
> I don't care if my life goes down (at least if I don't die) please heal that
> rogue there who is dpsing and offtanking in this pack of mobs ^^
> Cause if you don't there is no way i will keep all the aggro from you and we
> will kill everybody here.
> txs ^^
If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
If I don't heal the rogue the group will lose his dps, but I won't be
next on his aggro list when he dies. Sure, I will throw him a shield
and a renew but I won't give him two complete heals in the time that you
would have sufficed with half a heal.
Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
to what he is holding.
You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
Marypop
>
> If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
> that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
mmm... thepoint is that if you heal the rogue he DOES NOT go down !
> If I don't heal the rogue the group will lose his dps, but I won't be
> next on his aggro list when he dies. Sure, I will throw him a shield
> and a renew but I won't give him two complete heals in the time that you
> would have sufficed with half a heal.
why do you want him do die ?
you're healing himso that he doesn't!
> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
> to what he is holding.
"trivial" ? come on !
I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or 6 !
did you ever play that game ?
>
> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs are
on you !
What level are you ?
Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
Christian Stauffer
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
Just for the records, Thomas posted something like that about half a
year before already and IMHO got similar replies.
Yes, when a DPS class gets hurt all the time they're doing something
wrong.
No, as long as you can afford the heals you don't let them die,
because when all DPS is dead the tank and the healer will die a
slow, painful death.
If a player in a pickup group plays poorly, you can do only 2
things: Give him hints (nicely) and do your best to compensate
for that.
>> If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
>> that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
>
> mmm... thepoint is that if you heal the rogue he DOES NOT go down !
That's right, but he'll use twice the mana he'd use if those mobs
were on you, goes oom a lot earlier and the whole group probably
dies.
DPS classes are there to kill the enemy, that's the reason they
get heals.
>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>> to what he is holding.
>
> "trivial" ? come on !
> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or 6 !
> did you ever play that game ?
I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
(and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
offtanks.
Apart from that, I can't imagine a case where you have to deal with
more than 5 elite mobs, in any 5 man instance. Given you can crowd
control one that's only 4 in the end.
Non elites are irrelevant. Either you have someone to AoE them or you
let the DPS crowd take them while you tank the elites. The non-elites
won't last long enough to do any serious damage, a rogue who's
"soloing" a level 60 non elite for example in Stratholme will roughly
loose 20% health.
>> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
>> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
>> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
>> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
>> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
>
> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs are
> on you !
That's an exaggeration to say the least.
> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
Chris
--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Gwaith - Short beastmaster (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Maethor - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Sian - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Marypop
>
>>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>>> to what he is holding.
>>
>> "trivial" ? come on !
>> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or
>> 6 !
>> did you ever play that game ?
>
> I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
> (and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
> a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
> offtanks.
No 5 mobs is not "easy" because i aggro them one by one, and every heall
aggro them all.
Plus, if I have 5 on me you have to heal me all the time = more difficult
for me to keep them.
> Apart from that, I can't imagine a case where you have to deal with
> more than 5 elite mobs, in any 5 man instance. Given you can crowd
> control one that's only 4 in the end.
>
> Non elites are irrelevant. Either you have someone to AoE them or you
> let the DPS crowd take them while you tank the elites. The non-elites
> won't last long enough to do any serious damage, a rogue who's
> "soloing" a level 60 non elite for example in Stratholme will roughly
> loose 20% health.
>
>>> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
>>> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
>>> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
>>> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
>>> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
>>
>> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs
>> are on you !
>
> That's an exaggeration to say the least.
not really, it means I have to focus all my aggro management on that single
guy.
So how am I gonna be hated by the others ? when every heal you do is AOE
aggro ?
>> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
>
> Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
been to UBRS ...
I know there are 10 of us, but hey ! the other warrior was dpsing with a two
hands weapons and not tanking, what can I do about it ?
Well, please, heal the rogue doing his job ^^
even in a "trivial" 4 elites guy. One CC, 3 left.
I will keep two of them, and let the dpsers kill the third one. Then I have
built enough aggro to keep the two others.
Or the dpsers could focus on "my" mob. Then i have to use every skill to
keep it, and first heal the two others are on you. What's your choice ?
Catriona R
wrote:
>It is true that some mobs hit more than just their current target. But
>basically I do claim to be a better healer because of not taking all
>crap from dps classes and acting upon draining the groups healing pool
>(by letting them die the next time they get my attention by grabbing
>more than their share of aggro)
>
>I mean. If you got crappy gear or are low level, how did you get that
>much aggro! If you got good gear and a high level you shouldn't be dying
>more than the other dps-ers either!
>
>It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
>because I happen to see the 'whole picture' more than most priest seem
>to do (or who are afraid to get flak from the dps classes they group
>with and get kicked out of parties)
You might be looking at the "whole picture" but the way you express it it
comes across as though you have a flat rule to not heal anything other than
the tank, and that is *not* a good way to go about things. It is incredibly
rare for the tank to have all the aggro from every single mob in the higher
level instances - if you've never been higher than Gnomeregan, perhaps
you've not encountered that yet, but further on you definitely will do.
You'll find a lot of the time dps classes act as offtanks, particularly now
the majority of higher level instances cannot be done in 10-man raids -
you're not going to get 2 warriors in a group to deal with up to 6-7 elites
in a group, so a rogue or hunter will be offtanking sometimes to help out
if a mob takes an interest in the squishies. And if they don't get heals,
the healer is next on the aggro list, because of the aggro he's generated
by healing the tank.
Yes, *some* dps classes aren't good players and take aggro far too much,
but sometimes it just happens - everyone makes mistakes, and they shouldn't
be punished with death for it. Any *good* healer would see their job as
keeping the entire group alive, not just one other person.
Christian Stauffer
> "Christian Stauffer"...
>>
>>>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>>>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>>>> to what he is holding.
>>>
>>> "trivial" ? come on !
>>> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or
>>> 6 !
>>> did you ever play that game ?
>>
>> I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
>> (and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
>> a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
>> offtanks.
>
> No 5 mobs is not "easy" because i aggro them one by one, and every heall
> aggro them all.
I don't know what you mean by "aggroing them one by one", but if that
means you'll stack two sunders on a mob, then switch to the next to
get a sunder done, and then to the third, instead of generating threat
on all mobs from the beginning, that's a very suboptimal way of
tanking.
When tanking (I'm just talking about my experience as a drood tank, mind
you), the first thing I do is a demoralising roar. This is a real AoE, no
matter how much mobs are around me I'll cash them in. This alone will
cover a 600-1000 points heal. While they are on me they generate threat
by hitting me, because I have thorns on me (if you don't have a druid
to buff you thorns all the time, get shield spikes and a naglering at
least).
After that I'm swiping (similar to cleave - I know cleave isn't a real
aggro magnet, but you got other AoE tools) and trying to get a maul in
between, and I'm switching targets to give every mob a small whack as
well as fairy fire. If I see a mob heading for a damage dealer I'll
bash (stun) it. After that the first mob is alreaday down.
As soon as the first mob is down, I have already quite some threat
on all the remain ones, while the damage dealers, if they did the
job right, have none.
But really, the most important thing is cashing them in with a demo
roar and have thorns or other damage reflecting stuff on. I don't
know how many AoE tools warrior have, or how effective they are,
but not using an AoE as first action means all mobs have nothing
but proximity threat until you touch them. Which in turn means
that a 20 point heal spell is alraedy enough to get them off you.
> Plus, if I have 5 on me you have to heal me all the time = more difficult
> for me to keep them.
Au contraire. The healer has to heal the damage those 5 mobs do
anyway. No matter whether these 5 mobs are on you or on the
rogue, a 2000 heal will generate the same amount of aggro on
the same mobs.
The difference is: When the mobs are on you, the healer has to
heal less often, because you mitigate more damage than the
rogue.
You might argue now that when you have only 3 mobs on you
instead of 5, you can hold aggro easier, but that isn't true
neither. Here comes one of the keys to tanking 5 man instances:
The more mobs are on you, the more rage you'll have. And
rage = threat.
>>> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs
>>> are on you !
>>
>> That's an exaggeration to say the least.
>
> not really, it means I have to focus all my aggro management on that single
> guy.
Nope, not all. Most. And that's what you have to do anyway. Tanking in 5 man
instances means holding DPS aggro on 1 mob and holding healer aggro on the
rest.
Holding healer aggro is definitely priority #1, but you can perfectly
keep DPS aggro on one mob too most of the time.
> So how am I gonna be hated by the others ? when every heal you do is AOE
> aggro ?
By spending some attention on the rest.
>>> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
>>
>> Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
>
> been to UBRS ...
> I know there are 10 of us, but hey ! the other warrior was dpsing with a two
> hands weapons and not tanking, what can I do about it ?
> Well, please, heal the rogue doing his job ^^
UBRS is designed for 10 people, and for 2 tanks. I can't see a spot here
where there are more than 5 elites per tank neither.
If there's a rogue tanking he should of course get healed, but I wouldn't
call this is a smart choice nor a relevant example.
> even in a "trivial" 4 elites guy. One CC, 3 left.
> I will keep two of them, and let the dpsers kill the third one. Then I have
> built enough aggro to keep the two others.
> Or the dpsers could focus on "my" mob.
Vice versa. You declare one of the damage dealers as MA (main assistant).
This guy picks the next mob (preferably a hunter because of the mark,
but after the introduction of the target symbols any class will do).
All damage dealers attack whatever the MA attacks, and the tank knows
that the mob which the MA is on is the one that requires the most
attention.
> Then i have to use every skill to
> keep it, and first heal the two others are on you.
> What's your choice ?
No offense, but my choice would be another tank.
Tanking 4 mobs is fun, tanking 5 mobs is challenging, but tanking
3 lousy mobs at a time *is* trivial (excluding special mobs like
Drakkhis guards or thelikes).
As I wrote above, cash mobs in early, spend 75% of your time on
the main mob (the one being melted by the damage dealers). If
you loose aggro, no big deal (it will die soon anyway), but it
doesn't take 100% of your attention to hold it.
Keep the rest of your attention on the other mobs, either by
using AoE, or by switching targets.
Brian Trosko
> I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
> Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
> the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
> shunder comes, you can do another.
No. You clearly do not understand how threat works. One sunder is 260
threat. If you wait for one sunder, and then cast a frostbolt that does
700 damage, you've just drawn aggro. Which is dumb.
Extensive cut-and-past follows
[begin quoted text]
"Threat" is the magical number that each mob assigns you to determine
whether or not it should be attacking you, or its current target.
"Aggro" is used in two connected ways. When a mob awakens, it has
"aggroed." When a player aggroes a mob, that player becomes the current
target of the mob. Therefore, when a mob aggroes, it has selected a
target; when a player aggroes a mob, the player has become the target of
that mob.
"Pulling aggro" and "gaining aggro" mean the same thing, to have a mob
switch targets to you from its current target. Sometimes the mob's threat
list is referred to as its aggro list, since threat is the number used to
select the current target and aggro is the current selected target.
Some basic rules on threat:
Only players on the mob's threat list have threat. To get onto a mob's
threat list, you must do one of the following:
a) Perform an action detrimental to the mob (such as attack it or cast a
spell at it, if the spell isn't one of the few with no threat component).
b) Perform an action helpful to a player on the mob's threat list (such as
heal that player).
c) Get within the aggro range of the mob (modified by level of mob vs.
level of player).
d) Be in the same instance as the mob if the mob has instance-wide aggro
and one of the other three conditions are met by someone in the instance.
e) Get on the threat list of a mob linked to the mob.
Unless specially modified, each point of damage done to a mob gives the
player one point of threat. EDIT: For reference, Rogues and Warriors in
Beserker and Battle Stance cause less than 1 threat per damage, as built
in modifiers. Warriors in defensive stance do more than 1 threat per
damage. See Parrog's link below. There are also numerous talents and a
few pieces of gear that modify threat. Threat reduction and enhancement
are (as of 1.12) always multiplicatively calculated.
Unless specially modified, each point of healing done to a player on the
mob's threat list gives the player one half point of threat. Healing done
after full health (overhealing) gains no threat. All paladin healing has
further reduced threat, to prevent healtanking.
Crits generate NO extra threat beyond the extra damage/healing they do. A
crit does more threat than a normal attack only because it does more
damage than a normal attack.
Edit: Apparently, healing threat is divided over each mob with the healer
on their threat list. According to Parrog's link, anyway. Which I highly
recommend (see his post after this one).
Abilities that neither do damage nor heal have a set threat number.
Unless these are specifically listed as threat-gaining abilties, these
abilities tend to have a very small threat number.
The First Rule of Threat:
Once a mob has acquired a target, it will remain on that target until a
player within range of its melee attacks has exceeded its current target's
threat by 10%, or a player outside of the range of its melee attacks
exceeds the current target's threat by 30%.
The Second Rule of Threat:
Threat does not decay. Once you have X threat, you will retain X threat
until you raise or lower your threat through your own actions, or the mob
erases its aggro table completely. Your rate of threat gain has no effect
on your absolute threat, nor on the mob's decision to change targets.
Only your current threat compared to the current target's threat effects
that decision.
Taunt and Growl: A Warrior's Taunt or a beartank's Growl do the same
thing (with regards to threat). Both of them make the mob target the Tank
and both of them set the Tank's threat equal to the mob's current target.
This means two things:
1) If you are the current target of the mob, Taunt/Growl is not
exceedingly useful. Opening with these abilities is a complete waste
(except, arguably, for the three seconds of dedicated attacking these
abilities force from the mob).
2) If you are a DPSer and the mob gets taunted off of you, how much
damage you can do depends in large part on how late into the fight it is,
and how close you are to the mob. If it's early in the fight, you may
have to hold back. If it's later in the fight, you have to achieve more
threat to pull that threat back.
The Third Rule of Threat:
If a mob can not be taunted, and has no absolute aggro resets, the tank
MUST NOT die. An MT death on a raid boss that can not be taunted is a
wipe, if there are insufficient backup tanks at the top of the threat
list, or the boss is not very close to death (within about 3%, depending
on the boss).
Death sets your threat to 0. If the tank can not taunt to recover the top
threat spot, he must do 110% the threat of the mob's current target to
recover the top threat position. The further into the fight that this
occurs, the more impossible this is to attempt.
The Fourth Rule of Threat (the Momentum Rule):
Because threat does not decay, it has momentum. The further into the
fight you are, the more likely a mob is to stay on its current target,
barring death or aggro resets.
110% of 100 damage is a lot less to achieve than 110% of 1,000 damage, and
even that is more doable than 110% of 10,000 damage.
The Fifth Rule of Threat:
Threat is best measured in rates. If your rate of threat gain is less
than your tank's, he will gain more and more comparative threat and you
will not be achieving maximum DPS (although you may be doing optimum
damage for the fight, in terms of safety). If your rate of threat gain is
higher than your tank's, you will eventually steal threat from him... and
possibly wipe the raid.
Stealing threat from the tank is bad, and it gets worse the later into the
fight you get. See the fourth rule.
Some conclusions:
The further into the fight, the harder it is to pass threat back and forth
(barring taunts) between the tanks, thanks to rule 4.
An aggro reset (such as feign death) is more valuable later in the fight
than earlier. Late enough, and you can completely forget about pulling
aggro until everyone else is dead. If it works.
Similarly, small heals are better early in a fight, and bigger heals are
better later in a fight, thanks to the Momentum Rule. Paladin heals are
more valuable early in a fight, and druid/priest heals gain more value
later in the fight.
If you gain threat and are not a tank, your distance from the mob no
longer matters threatwise, as you are now the current target. Unless you
are kiting (and most raid mobs can't be kited), the best option is to run
to where the tank is tanking so as to allow him to recover aggro as
quickly as possible.
When the current target dies, the next target of the mob is the next
target on his threat list, irregardless of distance. Since most ranged
DPS and healers will be between 101 - 130% of the tank's current threat,
this means that the mob will begin systematically destroying the raid,
unless the tank can recover threat in time. Do not pull threat off the
tank.
Snares, knockbacks and other incapacitating effects are temporary aggro
dumps. They do not change the threat of those they effect, but they do
prevent them from being the mob's current target if there is an unaffected
target on the aggro list. It is better that the entire raid be effected
by these things than just the tanks, usually, because of the Momentum
Rule. AoE attacks from the raid mob in question may cause the strategies
to vary. If the tank has 110% of the threat of the highest raid member
unaffected by the incapacitation and is within melee range, or 130%
period, the mob will immediately revert to the tank when the
incapacitation ends. Know the mob's abilities, and judge your own safe
threat accordingly.
The key threat gaining abilities of the tanks do not scale with gear,
unlike both healing and damage. Feral tanks do scale better, as they rely
more on damage to do threat, but they suffer from a lack of itemization,
period. Sunder and the like always do the same amount of threat, no
matter how well geared the raid... this means your rate of threat will
exceed the tank's as you get better and better geared (starting about
halfway into BWL). Blessing of Salvation is absolutely essential to a
good deal of end-game raiding, therefore, and points can be shifted from
DPS talents to threat reduction talents to further help endgame DPS. This
is offset a bit by the increase in DPS by the tank himself when he gets
endgame weaponry... but not a whole lot.
These are just general rules. If anyone wants to post the exact numbers
of various threat-gaining abilities, I recommend it. For instance, I know
that Fade temporarily drops 800-odd threat, for as long as the fade lasts,
and regains it at the end of the fade duration (making fade one of the
most useless threat reduction talents, although it does have some synergy
with the 130% rule).
Addendum:
The "Priests hate Hunters" rule: If you are a hunter and are the mob's
current threat, and use feign death, you will wipe your threat from the
mob's threat list. However, this does not mean the mob will return to the
tank. Often, by necessity, healers are near the top of the threat list
(largely since tanks can tank without DPS, but not without heals... there
is no such thing as a "heal call."). This means that the mob will
automatically shift his current target to a healer... who will be standing
about 35 yards away from the tank.
Often, you, as a hunter, will not be standing next to the healer. This
means that the entire time it takes for the mob to move to the healer, the
entire time it takes for the healer to realize he's getting beaten on, and
the entire time it takes for the healer to move to the tank, the mob is
untanked. This is bad, and will probably result in the death of the
healer, several other people high on the threat list, and possibly the
entire raid.
The moral of this story: An aggro wipe is not an excuse to out-threat the
tank. Use it BEFORE you steal current target status ("aggro"), not after.
If you do pull threat, move to the tank, like any other DPSer. Don't
feign death and let the raid die in the resulting confusion.
Addendum #2: The Debuff/DoT Explanation
This is mostly about warlocks, but I've seen people make mistakes about a
warlock's actions in the past, so I recommend reading this to every DPS
class.
DoTs place the caster on the threat list, but they do not generate threat
until they actually do damage. They generate one point of threat per
damage, just like any other damage dealing mechanism. The benefit of DoTs
is that the rate of threat gain they possess is much lower than a nuke;
however, since threat does not decay, the earlier you place a DoT the
longer you have to wait until you can safely nuke.
DoTs can generally go up fairly early, but if the tank misses a sunder it
can spell trouble for the hasty 'lock/priest with a lot of +damage gear.
Because tanks feel responsible for the threat tables of the raid, it is
best to wait for the DPS call before launching DoTs... and it's not much
of a hindrance anyway, as that waiting just means you can nuke earlier.
Curse of Elements/Shadows, however, both have minimal threat and can be
thrown up after a single sunder. These are not DPS, however, and a curse
from a warlock is not a DPS call! Just because you see a Curse of
Elements up is not a reason to start launching frostbolts.
Shadow priests will often spam Rank 1 SW:P on raid bosses from the first
sunder. Since these do no damage (not being on the mob long enough) and
any damage they would do is ridiculously low anyway, the threat from these
is absolutely minimal. They are put in place solely to get the shadow
vulnerability debuff up to the full stack of five before the damage starts
to optimize the damage output of the warlocks/priests/everyone with a
shadow wand. These are also not a DPS call!
Do NOT use the debuff slots of the mob as a judge of when to start DPSing.
Not even sunder counting: an off-tank sunders as well, and those sunders
will stack with those of the tank. The only time to know when to start
DPSing is to wait for the tank to call it, even if he seems to be taking
forever.
Bonus Addendum: The Blast-and-Taunt
It is possible to make one member of the raid a sacrificial lamb when it
comes to threat with tauntable mobs. Have a raid member with excessively
high aggro generating "drawbacks", such as a Conflag' 'lock spamming
immolate/conflag/searing pain, or a hunter with aimed shot/distracting
shot, hit the mob first and get as much aggro as he can. Have the tank
then taunt the mob off the blaster, who then takes a breather (if he's
still alive) while the rest of the raid lays into the mob with less
drastic aggro-generating damage.
This has the benefit of skipping the tedious sunder build-up and greatly
speeding up the encounter. It has the drawback of not always working and
making for a messy splat.
[end quoted text]
Apheliona
"Brian Trosko" <btr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ebpuhc$1lj$2...@reader2.panix.com...
>> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
>> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
>> shunder comes, you can do another.
>
> No. You clearly do not understand how threat works. One sunder is 260
> threat. If you wait for one sunder, and then cast a frostbolt that does
> 700 damage, you've just drawn aggro. Which is dumb.
I think you might be missing agro reducing talents, spells and gear. I have
Netherwind 3 item set bonus and with a salvation, I can throw frostbolt and
crit on 1 sunder no trouble at all. If the tank has thunderfury, I usually
start DPS when I see the tank has the target. 2.5 secs is cast is more than
enough for a good tank to build agro. Everyone says it cant be done, but I'm
doing it.
If you dont have salvation (horde) or still need 3x Netherwind, spend the
first few secs casting Frostbolt (Rank 1). If you have Winters chill, you
can stack it 5x in 5 seconds (for an added 10% to crit). You might as well
use the waiting period for something usefull.
Oh and if you somehow manage to get agro - iceblock is your friend.
-Aph
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Yes, *some* dps classes aren't good players and take aggro far too much,
> but sometimes it just happens - everyone makes mistakes, and they shouldn't
> be punished with death for it. Any *good* healer would see their job as
> keeping the entire group alive, not just one other person.
Replace 'good healer' with 'good party member' and we agree :-)
Fullauto
with your attitude, will get you no where in the game. I stopped
reading after you mentioned Wailing Caverns. You need to be more open
minded, or roll a different class.
Thomas J. Boschloo
Maybe it is *YOU* who should roll a healer and get to understand that it
is not all about playing whack the weasel if you want to be above par.
At least if I reroll I would not suck at the classes you are currently
playing...
Brian Trosko
> If you dont have salvation (horde) or still need 3x Netherwind, spend the
> first few secs casting Frostbolt (Rank 1). If you have Winters chill, you
> can stack it 5x in 5 seconds (for an added 10% to crit). You might as well
> use the waiting period for something usefull.
> Oh and if you somehow manage to get agro - iceblock is your friend.
Does iceblock actually wipe aggro, or will you still be at the top of the
list when it wears off?
And if it does wipe aggro, odds are a healer's going to be the next
target.
Do you know what the actual threat multiplier from 3-piece Netherwind is?
Fullauto
Fullauto
class in WoW.
Credentials
60 Warrior
60 Mage x 2
60 Warlock
60 Druid
60 Priest
60 Hunter
60 Rogue
Only two I haven't got to 60 are Paladin and Shaman.
Once you have that kind of experience under your belt, you will look
back on this post and realize how dumb it was.
Brian Trosko
> Credentials
This means nothing, because the game post-60 is an entirely different game
than it is from level 1 to 59.
If you ding 60 with a character and then put him away and roll an alt, you
have no authority to claim in the lrn2play department. If you have at
least some Tier 2 on each of those characters, then it might be
meaningful.
PGerringer
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. By mentioning parties in WC and DM
he shows he doesn't have the experience to talk about healing or aggro
to anyone. I've taken several to 60s and now have just as many 40s. I
know how to play. I'm not an expert but I know. And, if I had the
op's low level priest in my party I would definitely think twice about
going.
Course, if its true that this is the same crap he's spouted off before,
then we can mark him as a troll and move on with life.
Lisa C
news:44df8b92$0$4531$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
> heal yourself?
>
> on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
> to the group we are in?
>
> himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
> if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
>
> large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
> than other classes do?
>
Two things tick off a mob.. getting whaled on, and someone who can heal
what's whaleing it. Translated - the DPS folks, and YOU. Enter the 'tank'
who has special abilities to turn that threat onto himself.
Sounds elementary? Sure.. now think on this. If the DPS folks are dying the
aggro is NOT ON THE TANK(s).
You're next bunkie.
If you let the DPS folks die, and you miraculously do not become the mob's
next snack, you've got a good chance of watching the mobs whale on the tank
until you are out of mana... and I guarantee you your tank is not gonna
appreciate it.
Now, I have no clue why you have the attitude to DPS classes that you do. I
assure you, in SIXTY levels, and numerous Pug's, I have never met folks who
"think they are worthy of a large percentage of my mana and casting time
because they do more damage than other classes do". What I *have* met are
folks who think that a healing class/spec should, well, HEAL. I suspect the
attitude's you are running in to are due in some part to the level you and
the folks you group with are now. If you are doing Deadmines and WC, you are
all a bit, say, underpowered within your class. All classes will get tools
to help with mana conversion, aggro management, etc. as you all level and
grow.
Here is some advice for the next time your tank loses aggro. First off
SHIELD and RENEW the dying, as you have been. Focus especially on the
off-tanks (the ones intentionally drawing aggro away from you). Remember,
that bandaging is a channeled ability. The DPS folk who are being targeted
will have that channelling interrupted. It is your job to make sure they
*CAN* bandage. If they can't bandage themselves, then it's up to you to
bandage them once shielded. I've met many folks who fail to realize that
applying a bandage has about the same 'casting' time and healing power as
casting a heal spell (at different levels - so long as you are using the
maximum bandage for your level).
Watch the warlock. Sometimes what you think is a 'DPS dying from aggro'
issue is really a mana recovery issue, as the warlock uses spirit tap. If
you see the warlock dropping mana fast, be ready to shield and help him get
his health back.
Remember that without the DPS class the odds drop for killing the mob.
Balance your mana use accordingly. Don't be afraid to shield.. and, if you
have to, yes, it is OCCASIONALLY correct to shield the tank. If the tank is
gonna die before you can heal him, he is not gonna be upset about being
unable to generate rage. Just understand the ramifications.
Fullauto
each and every one of them have at LEAST been to Ragnaros multiple
times. Therefore, I have a VAST understanding of each classes
capabilities, and challenges. The OP on this topic has a crappy
attitude, and truly lacks experience in the game. One of these spout
offs in an MC/AQ/BWL/NAXX raid and he/she would get the /gquit. If you
don't agree to that, then you also need to get some more end game
experience under your belt.
Fullauto
Above was @ Brian, no one else.
crazyfalnger
needed to reply, so I hope this hasn't already been said.
If you aren't healing your DPS classes you are a horrible healer. Lets
take my 60 rogue for example, in end game I need to be right next to
the mob, and in end game 90% of the mobs have a cleave, or AoE which
hits me regardless of my aggro level. Most hit for 1-2k damage. A rogue
only has around 4-5k buffed. My rogue only has 4k fully buffed. A
cleave takes half my life away, two kill me. So I need heals.
As a rogue I know the tank is the priority, so I do banage when I can,
but I can't always. Lets explore the snake boss in ZG. He has a holy
nova that hits for about 1000 damage. This hits about every 5 seconds
along with other hits, if I try and bandage up close I will waste a
bandage. If I back away to banage I will risk a wipe due to chain
lighting. I need heals or I will die, so will the other 3 rogues. If we
all die, so does DPS, and that also risks a wipe.
I'm not a lame ass rogue who over aggro's....I wouldn't blame you for
not healing them, but all classes need healing from time to time,
priority should always be on tank but that doesn't mean you should
ignore other classes, or say good bye to your dps and you will never
get anywhere.
Babe Bridou
> I consider myself to have the utmost understanding of nearly every
> class in WoW.
Sorry but I need to bash you a bit for that sentence:
Tell me of at least one situation in which having Blessed Recovery
increases your chance to wipe.
Tell me the difference between taunt and challenging shout.
Tell me about the "holy fire bug".
Tell me the difference between a 10 seconds rotation and a 9 seconds
rotation.
Tell me of a wipe recovery tactic involving no paladin, no shaman, no
rogue, no hunter and no warlock.
Tell me which pet does the most burst damage in this game.
Tell me the correct sequence to perform a perfect stunlock
Tell me in which situation does a druid perform a hundred percent
better than a warrior as a main tank.
Tell me which trinket helps the most with healing between a talisman of
ascendance, a zandalaran hero charm, and a royal seal of eldre'thalas.
Tell me the maximum fire resistance for a cloth wearer.
For each race, tell me of a priest build that maximizes the effects of
racial spells.
I know all the answers by heart. Do you?
>
> Credentials
>
> 60 Warrior
> 60 Mage x 2
> 60 Warlock
> 60 Druid
> 60 Priest
> 60 Hunter
> 60 Rogue
>
>
> Only two I haven't got to 60 are Paladin and Shaman.
>
sorry, I'm only 28, but
> Once you have that kind of experience under your belt, you will look
> back on this post and realize how dumb it was.
right back at you.
Babe Bridou
Fullauto a écrit :
it's /gkick.
Thomas is playing on a RP server, and his attitude as a player is
clearly in line with that of his priest from what I remember, so that
makes it "acceptable". Then again, this group is here to share
knowledge in a friendly way, not to bash away with leetness. Patience
is a virtue, which you don't seem to have here.
By the way, as an off topic note try to quote the poster you're
replying to, at least mention his name, it gets tough sometimes to
follow a discussion otherwise, as we don't always share the exact same
thread arborescence on usenet.
Marshall
"crazyfalnger" <crazyf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155574580....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I didn't read through all the posts. I just became so dumb-founded I
> needed to reply, so I hope this hasn't already been said.
>
> If you aren't healing your DPS classes you are a horrible healer. Lets
> take my 60 rogue for example, in end game I need to be right next to
> the mob, and in end game 90% of the mobs have a cleave, or AoE which
> hits me regardless of my aggro level. Most hit for 1-2k damage. A rogue
> only has around 4-5k buffed. My rogue only has 4k fully buffed. A
> cleave takes half my life away, two kill me. So I need heals.
>
> As a rogue I know the tank is the priority, so I do banage when I can,
> but I can't always. Lets explore the snake boss in ZG. He has a holy
> nova that hits for about 1000 damage. This hits about every 5 seconds
> along with other hits, if I try and bandage up close I will waste a
> bandage. If I back away to banage I will risk a wipe due to chain
> lighting. I need heals or I will die, so will the other 3 rogues. If we
> all die, so does DPS, and that also risks a wipe.
If you and other melee classes are in hacking on Venoxxis before he is
under 50% life, then you're not playing him right. What our guild has
always done, is have main tank pull him off to the side and hold him
there until the rest of us clean up the other snakes (sleeps/sheeps and
clean them up one at a time). Then everyone goes to ranged damage
on Venoxxis until he's under 50% life (MT still holding him in place),
then he can't chain-lightning anymore, and it's just a matter of hacking
him down while the MT moves him around out of the poison clouds
he spews every so often after that. Piece of cake.
-Marshall
Marypop
> Tell me in which situation does a druid perform a hundred percent
> better than a warrior as a main tank.
pleaaassssseeeee !!
I want to know ^^
Catriona R
wrote:
>Fullauto wrote:
>> It is clear that you have limited experience in WoW. This, combined
>> with your attitude, will get you no where in the game. I stopped
>> reading after you mentioned Wailing Caverns. You need to be more open
>> minded, or roll a different class.
>
>Maybe it is *YOU* who should roll a healer and get to understand that it
>is not all about playing whack the weasel if you want to be above par.
I have a lvl 55 priest and I still believe your attitude is not a good one
for a healer. I have healed up to Maraudon, and in those runs have had zero
wipes and very few deaths at all; those that have happened have been one
person maximum in a situation that could well have been a wipe, so I think
I'm not a bad healer. And my healing philosophy is to heal anyone who needs
it - tank takes priority, naturally, but I never let someone die unless I
have *no* mana at all, or am left with a choice between the tank and
someone else.