DPS Classes: Why should I heal you?
Thomas J. Boschloo
heal yourself?
Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
to the group we are in?
There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
than other classes do?
If anybody knows,
Thomas
--
"If want aggro so badly, you can keep it"
Alex Mars
were recruited as the main party healer, then you better heal people or
you'll get booted and word will go out that you are useless. If you
were not recruited as the main healer and it was agreed that you were
going to be providing some other service to the party then your point
might be valid.
Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
sinking their teeth in your ass.
Catriona R
wrote:
>When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
>heal yourself?
And if the tank is useless? Or there is AOE? And you do realise bandages
are of no use when you have a damage over time debuff? Plus that they have
a 1 minute cooldown?
>Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
>on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
>to the group we are in?
Chain healing is rarely needed, a heal here and there is normal and
expected of any good healer. I would never group with a healer who refused
to heal the dps, as that means a group that will wipe.
>Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
>large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
>than other classes do?
No-one's said large percentage, just some reasonable consideration. It's
clear you've never played at higher levels, if you had you'd know that
there are many many cases where the dps classes *will* take damage and will
die without healing - not through their fault but through the way the
encounters are designed. And if you let all the dps die through your
stubbornness, the entire group will wipe because there's no longer enough
damage being done to kill the mobs.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
> sinking their teeth in your ass.
This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
Some ?noob? players just seem to think that out dps-ing everybody else
including the tank makes them 133t. I don't like to play these games and
let them die after a while.
Usually the groups I am in do much better without that awesome killing
power of theirs. I can't imagine I am the only healer in this newsgroup
having experienced this.
Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
Thomas
--
"If you want aggro that badly, you can keep it"
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> And you do realise bandages
> are of no use when you have a damage over time debuff?
Hehe, found that out in gnomer with my rl mage friend. We were out of
combat (at least I was) and he had been using arcane blasts and was kind
of hurt. So he tells me 'HEAL'. So I say 'EAT' and he dies of radiation
poisoning.
I used to try harder to keep him alive than the main tank because I
noticed his connection dropping sometimes when we died too often in a
row :-)
It is true that some mobs hit more than just their current target. But
basically I do claim to be a better healer because of not taking all
crap from dps classes and acting upon draining the groups healing pool
(by letting them die the next time they get my attention by grabbing
more than their share of aggro)
I mean. If you got crappy gear or are low level, how did you get that
much aggro! If you got good gear and a high level you shouldn't be dying
more than the other dps-ers either!
It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
because I happen to see the 'whole picture' more than most priest seem
to do (or who are afraid to get flak from the dps classes they group
with and get kicked out of parties)
I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
I did get flak from dps classes and a paladin at one point and I think
we did much better after they had left. Sometimes even without a
replacement for them!
Thomas
--
"If you want aggro that badly, you can keep it"
Franky
> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
why should the tanks bitch with you? at least t h e y get heals...
I wouldn't group with you... very selfish attitude..
Thomas J. Boschloo
>> It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
>> I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
>> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
>
> why should the tanks bitch with you? at least t h e y get heals...
Maybe because I let everyone die that they cannot keep aggro on? My
guess is that these tanks agree with me these particular toons should
die. Makes they job a whole lot easier (Disclaimer: I have never tanked
as a warrior but did as a druid)
> I wouldn't group with you... very selfish attitude..
Funny YOU should say this because it is in the interest of the group
that I am doing this.
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
Dr. Richard Cranium
1.) party is 49 thru 55, Aliase is lvl 51 rogue dps/daggers and or dps
rapiers (depends on current monster, as to what Aliase will pack going in)
everybody else is lower levels.
Lvl 55 is tank - puller , 1st contact. Aliase does her stealth back lube
job on the monster within micro seconds of lvl 55 tanking.
2.) at this point I assume Aliase becomes the off-tank because both lvl 55
and lvl 51 (rogue) are dealing major damage to monster.
3.) main tank is heavey slow damage dealer, so while his weapon is charging,
Aliase with dps weapons is dancing all over the monster with quick dps and
interfering with monsters attack on tank. Correct me if I am wrong here
about what Aliase should be doing after lube job - but this is usually the
scenario for Aliase.
Successful in the team and success for the team.
4.) Healer knows what his role is and let me tell you, Aliase gets the
heals. Maybe not as much as the tank (sure seems like it) - which leads me
to think Aliase must be the off-tank. Never heard a healer complain that
Aliase is expecting to much healing - mostly because Aliase doesn't ask for
heals ? Aliase kicks ash, and contributes to party success (i have never
heard different).
Your post here is the first nit I've heard about "selective" healing.
You stand there and watch Aliase go down (ko) and I bet the wipes come more
often, and you don't get to share in the victory goodies, as we all venture
back from the graveyard huh.
What is your name again ? What server ? maybe I not go party with you. You
need the exp, I can get it anywhere.
Hope this helps,
** no fate **
Dracman
Aliase female hume rogue lvl 52 PVE
Zebby female NE Huntress lvl 51 / Aja nightstalker cat lvl 51 (bite,prowl)
PVE
"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
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Its often safer just to let some dps people die.
Too much healing will pull aggro onto yourself and likely cause a wipe for
the whole group.
Ashen Shugar
something like...
>When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
>heal yourself?
Bandages are all too easily interrupted and take a while before they
can be reused. Tanks can only do so much about getting agro off other
players. If they have to spend too much time running after mobs that
have gone to chew on someone else, they become that much more likely
to lose agro from the mobs that they have. Not a problem if there's
only one mob.
>Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my mana
>on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
>to the group we are in?
>
>There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
>himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
>if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
>
>Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy of a
>large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
>than other classes do?
>
>If anybody knows,
Well, you do have a point. A large percentage of your mana and
casting time should be for the tank, not the DPS classes. But they do
deserve a percentage of your mana and casting time. I know the
problems you're talking about though. The people that try get in the
most damage during a fight. They don't give the tank time to build up
any hate before they start trying to nuke the mob. And they'll
probably run on to the next mob and pull it before anyone's had a
chance to catch their breath. Yes, some people deserve to die. But
played well, you want to keep your dps classes around as long as
possible, and heal them as necessary, because all too often it's not
going to be their fault they need the healing. One fight that comes
directly to mind is the Princess in Maraudon. When she sleeps or
fears or whatever your tank, she's going to be going after someone
else then until the tank can recover and get agro back. Then there's
also Herod in SM. When he goes into his whirlwind attack, any rogues
standing behind him sinking a dagger into his back are going to get
hurt. I've been there. In that case, even without gaining agro,
they're going to need healing. If they're quick enough backing off,
it won't require much, but you still want them back in the fight
rather than standing around waiting for a bandage to finish (which
even if they do use, will only do for the first time).
Still, ideally, most of the time they should be fine with just a renew
every now and then unless they don't care about gaining agro and
actually seem to be trying to get it.
Oh, and that's another place where dps classes are going to want
healing. Doan and his Arcane Explosions. Though ranged DPS can
possibly keep out of range of it.
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
U-Boat
controlling his DPS. The tank was trying really hard to keep aggro but
the rogue would continually steal it. I was one of the healers in my
group and my friend was the main healer, a priest. We were getting
annoyed by the fact that he would constantly pull aggro off the tank
and make the tank's job harder so we agreed not to heal him. After a
few deaths, most DPS classes realise that better aggro management is a
good thing.
You only have to look at the 2 main DPS classes, rogue and mage. If
either of them pull aggro, they die and in most cases no amount of
healing is going to keep them upright. Aggro management for a DPS class
is a lesson that some have to learn the hard way. When playing my
warrior I had to yell at someone to control their DPS because they were
continually wiping the group. Eventually I found out he had no concept
of Aggro Management so I taught him.
As far as DPS classes go, throw em a heal if they're sensible. But if
they're just being stupid and continually stealing aggro from the tank,
I let them die.
Doc
> Alex Mars wrote:
> [snip]
>> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
>> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
>> sinking their teeth in your ass.
>
> This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
> aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
You are going to open yourself up to all kinds of criticism doing that. When
a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to be
a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs is
a HoT.
> Some ?noob? players just seem to think that out dps-ing everybody else
> including the tank makes them 133t. I don't like to play these games and
> let them die after a while.
*Everybody* but healers out-dps tanks... and that is as it should be:).
I'm Rogue leader and core raider for our guild, and in most raids I end up
on top of the damage out meter. Yet I have a hard time pulling aggro from
our MT or OT. Why? Because they are very good at what they do. If a DPSer
pulls aggro from a tank, after letting the tank get a little playtime with
the mob first, then the tank is probably the one you should be blaming. If
the DPSer is off-tanking, then you need to keep the heals up on him, if you
try to get the tank to tap each mob (ie:- do his own off-tanking) then you
are going to pull aggro with your first heal.
> Usually the groups I am in do much better without that awesome killing
> power of theirs. I can't imagine I am the only healer in this newsgroup
> having experienced this.
A party without any DPS.. what a novel idea!
> Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
> wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
> normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
My advice is for you to go with the flow and see what you think later on
when you are more experienced.
--
Doc
'Virtute et armis!'
Llane server
60 Warrior
60 Rogue
60 Hunter
dt Kruger
Rather kick someone if they're causing problems. As a tank, I would
prefer not waiting for someone to corpserun. If you let them
die....we'll then you're not really doing your best, but don't worry,
I'll give you the courtesy of a kick, instead of "letting you die".
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Rather kick someone if they're causing problems. As a tank, I would
> prefer not waiting for someone to corpserun. If you let them
> die....we'll then you're not really doing your best, but don't worry,
> I'll give you the courtesy of a kick, instead of "letting you die".
The way I see it is that these clowns go mess up some other pickup group
if I kick them. Or they go announce that they don't want to group with
me anymore 'because I suck'. And one day they might turn level 60
despite never having defeated an end boss without tanking it themselves
at a high level (the horror!)
I give them the chance to learn and if they keep their DPS down they
will turn out to be fine DPS classes in the end! IMHO most DPSers get it
after one or two bosses. It is either that or they kick themselves :-)
[this group s0xors!]
I can take their little tirades when they go because I know how well we
will do without them. And if we need another DPS class, they are usually
easy to get.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:44df92b3$0$4529$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>> Alex Mars wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> Of course, your attitude overlooks the reality of the situation, every
>>> party member that hits the floor leaves the monsters one step closer to
>>> sinking their teeth in your ass.
>> This is not true. I have let people die and the mobs on them had no
>> aggro at me at all. If they did the tank took off this aggro quite easily.
>
> You are going to open yourself up to all kinds of criticism doing that.
I noticed. Both ingame and here ;-)
> When
> a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
> seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
> just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to be
> a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs is
> a HoT.
When a rogue stays at 25% for 20 seconds he got no aggro and I will heal
him. It is the constant full out DPS types I do not heal, and they solve
the groups problems within 20 seconds if they don't get heals. And they
will shout and rant at me because of it. And the tank will love me for
it (I hope)
> *Everybody* but healers out-dps tanks... and that is as it should be:).
>
> I'm Rogue leader and core raider for our guild, and in most raids I end up
> on top of the damage out meter. Yet I have a hard time pulling aggro from
> our MT or OT. Why? Because they are very good at what they do. If a DPSer
> pulls aggro from a tank, after letting the tank get a little playtime with
> the mob first, then the tank is probably the one you should be blaming. If
> the DPSer is off-tanking, then you need to keep the heals up on him, if you
> try to get the tank to tap each mob (ie:- do his own off-tanking) then you
> are going to pull aggro with your first heal.
I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
shunder comes, you can do another. Or you can tag multiple mobs as a
caster and soften them up a bit. Or my druid would do a fairy fire after
two hits by the tank (you get a feel for this in small groups).
That seems more mana efficient while not getting you aggro.
Why didn't the level 60 raid group do such a thing?
>> Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
>> wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
>> normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
>
> In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
That is kind of cool :-) And when the DPSers die, the healers will die,
but not all of them! It just might work <g>
> My advice is for you to go with the flow and see what you think later on
> when you are more experienced.
I rather ask here than get flak in an instance. I think that if the tank
is good I will let DPS classes die if I feel they badly aspire to do so.
Kind regards,
WheeZ50
> When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
> heal yourself?
DOT's
Common courtesy
Bad Luck
A real good offtank pickup that otherwise would've gone to me directly
disabling my ability to heal mt.
Just a couple I can think of
> Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my
> mana on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and
> dangerous to the group we are in?
If they pull agro I'm checking the mt. Is he / she any good? If not,
warn the others and go slow on the dps... If they don't, let them die
once and warn them again immediately.
If they're at 30-60% but in no immediate danger and you're low on mana
while the fight is going on - just let them be there. They'd better
watch out.
> There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
> himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs,
> but if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
This is a Duh...
> Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy
> of a large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do
> more damage than other classes do?
For some it's a way of life. First thing I'm telling them - a large
repairbill is part of your way of life as well. I don't really mind
is, except when there's no resser and I'm main healer. Then it's large
repairbill, corpseruns and loads of anger with your partymembers.
And yes, I did a baronrun making sure noone died...
If you're main healer and certain people ask disproportionally much
mana (healing), tell them. If they don't adapt their playing style,
live with it. If they start to whine, tell 'em about healing in very
big detail. Be able to account for every 300 mana you spent usually
shuts them up *very* well.
Having been mainhealer on both pally and druid, I can tell you some
people just moan and bitch because I'm not a priest. I usually point
out they're not another class as well - ask warlocks for a drink,
mages for a summon/banish or rogues to stay aback and rangedps. It
always works. I seldom have trouble with tanks, which proves me that
I'm not all that bad a healer.
Erineveron / Eyeyun @dragonblight / EU
--
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
(vrij naar) ~Oscar Wilde~
Rene
That wouldn't be the (in)famous "THAT'S A FUCKING FIFTY DKP MINUS" show,
wouldnt' it ? ;)
Onyxia is a bit special, no snap-aggro mechanism works with her and she
additionally sheds aggro by using the "Wing Buffet" effect. This
effectively requires some special approach which often includes a slow
dps start after an extensive no-dps tank-phase.
She's quite aggro critical, especially since she has 2 programmed events
on which she wipes the aggro table completely and is very dangerous for
everyone not able to withstand large amounts of physical and fire damage
combined.
What you see is the resulting tactics to deal with that as best as possible.
I don't know which part of molten core you saw, there are essentially
few to none bosses where we do only light dps. After the tank got his
target firm on him, it's generally full dps on for everyone.
> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
> shunder comes, you can do another. Or you can tag multiple mobs as a
> caster and soften them up a bit. Or my druid would do a fairy fire after
> two hits by the tank (you get a feel for this in small groups).
>
> That seems more mana efficient while not getting you aggro.
>
> Why didn't the level 60 raid group do such a thing?
Because Onyxia can sort of negate sunder armors. And no snap-aggro
ability. So think about this, how are you going to keep aggro in this
case ? Only by creating more threat than anyone else, which means be and
remain top on the hate liste by damage and the few aggro generating
abilities that still work, but are reset somewhat whenever Onyxia does
her Wing Buffet.
> I rather ask here than get flak in an instance. I think that if the tank
> is good I will let DPS classes die if I feel they badly aspire to do so.
Perma-Aggrostealing DPS classes _are_ a problem though. There's the
exception of mages on bomb duty which just need to be heal spammed in
some specific cases, but generally DPS classes need to learn to be top
DPS without ever stealing aggro.
If rogues for example lose HP because of AoE effects or some such, they
get the same amount of healing like everyone else. However on most of
the time, they are completely on their own. In some raid encounters,
they are flat told that they will receive exactly 0 healing at all.
Their job then is to make as much damage as they can without ever
drawing aggro and to retreat into a safe position once they took enough
damage and bandage themselves, then repeat.
In other encounters they get priority healing (Vaelastrasz), often by a
special group setup (4 rogues, 1 priest spamming either group heal or
holy nova). Most often though rogues need to care for themselves and it
is not a problem. If a fight is easy enough for the group, they do get
some healing thrown in here and there.
It is however not just rogues. Every DPS class must be able to control
their aggro in normal situations. Aggro loss off the warrior is
generally bad, no matter who was it (depending also on the warrior in
question of course). But I presume we speak about an able and competent
tank that will glue any single-mob to him eternally if must be.
In the split-second decisions when stuff goes wrong or already did it
always depends on many factors. A surviving dps'er could make the
difference. The better you know your people, the better you can decide
who is expendable and who isn't. A mage with very low mana seldom
receives a heal from me in such a situation when there's a rogue I could
heal up instead.
CU
René
Marypop
"Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
ok ... as a tank I can answer !
I don't care if my life goes down (at least if I don't die) please heal that
rogue there who is dpsing and offtanking in this pack of mobs ^^
Cause if you don't there is no way i will keep all the aggro from you and we
will kill everybody here.
txs ^^
Babe Bridou
Thomas J. Boschloo a écrit :
> I can take their little tirades when they go because I know how well we
> will do without them. And if we need another DPS class, they are usually
> easy to get.
....
Well, sorry but you're wrong.
What you'll need at higher level is a damage dealer to do the killing
for you, outside of instances. Do the killing, escort you, spend time
protecting you, sharing the loot with you. Making money, getting
grinding quests done, upgrading your reputation.
And when you are in need of that, I assure you, available damage
dealers are scarce, very, very scarce... because they don't need you to
do that kind of business, and all you'll be doing is leeching from
them.
If you're going to be a healer, think about it. My hunter kills stuff
more than 5 times faster than my priest. The last time I was out with
my priest I was attacked by 3 mobs of 3 levels below me (trolls in Zul
Mashar). I was all clad in epic gear, and I'm not kidding, killing them
took me 15 minutes. I would have died if not for my clearly superior
mana regeneration.
I remember when I was 55 with my hunter, I used to breeze through the
whole village at least twice during the same 15 minutes.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
>> Doc wrote:
>>> When
>>> a Rogues asks why he didn't get a heal after being on 25% health for 20
>>> seconds, you can't really say that you were busy healing the tank, you'll
>>> just look like you don't know what's going on around you. You'll seem to
>>> be
>>> a noob, and people won't want to party with you. Often all a DPSer needs
>>> is
>>> a HoT.
>> When a rogue stays at 25% for 20 seconds he got no aggro and I will heal
>> him. It is the constant full out DPS types I do not heal, and they solve
>> the groups problems within 20 seconds if they don't get heals. And they
>> will shout and rant at me because of it. And the tank will love me for
>> it (I hope)
>
> ok ... as a tank I can answer !
> I don't care if my life goes down (at least if I don't die) please heal that
> rogue there who is dpsing and offtanking in this pack of mobs ^^
> Cause if you don't there is no way i will keep all the aggro from you and we
> will kill everybody here.
> txs ^^
If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
If I don't heal the rogue the group will lose his dps, but I won't be
next on his aggro list when he dies. Sure, I will throw him a shield
and a renew but I won't give him two complete heals in the time that you
would have sufficed with half a heal.
Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
to what he is holding.
You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
Marypop
>
> If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
> that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
mmm... thepoint is that if you heal the rogue he DOES NOT go down !
> If I don't heal the rogue the group will lose his dps, but I won't be
> next on his aggro list when he dies. Sure, I will throw him a shield
> and a renew but I won't give him two complete heals in the time that you
> would have sufficed with half a heal.
why do you want him do die ?
you're healing himso that he doesn't!
> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
> to what he is holding.
"trivial" ? come on !
I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or 6 !
did you ever play that game ?
>
> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs are
on you !
What level are you ?
Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
Christian Stauffer
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
Just for the records, Thomas posted something like that about half a
year before already and IMHO got similar replies.
Yes, when a DPS class gets hurt all the time they're doing something
wrong.
No, as long as you can afford the heals you don't let them die,
because when all DPS is dead the tank and the healer will die a
slow, painful death.
If a player in a pickup group plays poorly, you can do only 2
things: Give him hints (nicely) and do your best to compensate
for that.
>> If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
>> that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
>
> mmm... thepoint is that if you heal the rogue he DOES NOT go down !
That's right, but he'll use twice the mana he'd use if those mobs
were on you, goes oom a lot earlier and the whole group probably
dies.
DPS classes are there to kill the enemy, that's the reason they
get heals.
>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>> to what he is holding.
>
> "trivial" ? come on !
> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or 6 !
> did you ever play that game ?
I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
(and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
offtanks.
Apart from that, I can't imagine a case where you have to deal with
more than 5 elite mobs, in any 5 man instance. Given you can crowd
control one that's only 4 in the end.
Non elites are irrelevant. Either you have someone to AoE them or you
let the DPS crowd take them while you tank the elites. The non-elites
won't last long enough to do any serious damage, a rogue who's
"soloing" a level 60 non elite for example in Stratholme will roughly
loose 20% health.
>> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
>> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
>> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
>> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
>> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
>
> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs are
> on you !
That's an exaggeration to say the least.
> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
Chris
--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Gwaith - Short beastmaster (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Maethor - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Sian - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Marypop
>
>>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>>> to what he is holding.
>>
>> "trivial" ? come on !
>> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or
>> 6 !
>> did you ever play that game ?
>
> I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
> (and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
> a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
> offtanks.
No 5 mobs is not "easy" because i aggro them one by one, and every heall
aggro them all.
Plus, if I have 5 on me you have to heal me all the time = more difficult
for me to keep them.
> Apart from that, I can't imagine a case where you have to deal with
> more than 5 elite mobs, in any 5 man instance. Given you can crowd
> control one that's only 4 in the end.
>
> Non elites are irrelevant. Either you have someone to AoE them or you
> let the DPS crowd take them while you tank the elites. The non-elites
> won't last long enough to do any serious damage, a rogue who's
> "soloing" a level 60 non elite for example in Stratholme will roughly
> loose 20% health.
>
>>> You grab that aggro from the rogue and I will do everything I can to
>>> keep you healed until the battle is over and all corpses are lootable
>>> ;-) If you need more time to do this I will buy you some time by healing
>>> the rogue, but him gaining health points means your job becoming
>>> slightly harder with each extra heal I throw.
>>
>> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs
>> are on you !
>
> That's an exaggeration to say the least.
not really, it means I have to focus all my aggro management on that single
guy.
So how am I gonna be hated by the others ? when every heal you do is AOE
aggro ?
>> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
>
> Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
been to UBRS ...
I know there are 10 of us, but hey ! the other warrior was dpsing with a two
hands weapons and not tanking, what can I do about it ?
Well, please, heal the rogue doing his job ^^
even in a "trivial" 4 elites guy. One CC, 3 left.
I will keep two of them, and let the dpsers kill the third one. Then I have
built enough aggro to keep the two others.
Or the dpsers could focus on "my" mob. Then i have to use every skill to
keep it, and first heal the two others are on you. What's your choice ?
Catriona R
wrote:
>It is true that some mobs hit more than just their current target. But
>basically I do claim to be a better healer because of not taking all
>crap from dps classes and acting upon draining the groups healing pool
>(by letting them die the next time they get my attention by grabbing
>more than their share of aggro)
>
>I mean. If you got crappy gear or are low level, how did you get that
>much aggro! If you got good gear and a high level you shouldn't be dying
>more than the other dps-ers either!
>
>It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
>because I happen to see the 'whole picture' more than most priest seem
>to do (or who are afraid to get flak from the dps classes they group
>with and get kicked out of parties)
You might be looking at the "whole picture" but the way you express it it
comes across as though you have a flat rule to not heal anything other than
the tank, and that is *not* a good way to go about things. It is incredibly
rare for the tank to have all the aggro from every single mob in the higher
level instances - if you've never been higher than Gnomeregan, perhaps
you've not encountered that yet, but further on you definitely will do.
You'll find a lot of the time dps classes act as offtanks, particularly now
the majority of higher level instances cannot be done in 10-man raids -
you're not going to get 2 warriors in a group to deal with up to 6-7 elites
in a group, so a rogue or hunter will be offtanking sometimes to help out
if a mob takes an interest in the squishies. And if they don't get heals,
the healer is next on the aggro list, because of the aggro he's generated
by healing the tank.
Yes, *some* dps classes aren't good players and take aggro far too much,
but sometimes it just happens - everyone makes mistakes, and they shouldn't
be punished with death for it. Any *good* healer would see their job as
keeping the entire group alive, not just one other person.
Christian Stauffer
> "Christian Stauffer"...
>>
>>>> Also, a rogue can't hold aggro over more than say two or three mobs when
>>>> I heal him, which would be trivial for the warrior to hold in addition
>>>> to what he is holding.
>>>
>>> "trivial" ? come on !
>>> I'm busy holding aggro on two or three mobs, i won't keep let's say 5 or
>>> 6 !
>>> did you ever play that game ?
>>
>> I did, and holding healer aggro on up to 5 mobs is doable. At least
>> (and now we're on topic again), if the DPS people focus on one mob
>> a time instead of spreading their DPS and thinking they were
>> offtanks.
>
> No 5 mobs is not "easy" because i aggro them one by one, and every heall
> aggro them all.
I don't know what you mean by "aggroing them one by one", but if that
means you'll stack two sunders on a mob, then switch to the next to
get a sunder done, and then to the third, instead of generating threat
on all mobs from the beginning, that's a very suboptimal way of
tanking.
When tanking (I'm just talking about my experience as a drood tank, mind
you), the first thing I do is a demoralising roar. This is a real AoE, no
matter how much mobs are around me I'll cash them in. This alone will
cover a 600-1000 points heal. While they are on me they generate threat
by hitting me, because I have thorns on me (if you don't have a druid
to buff you thorns all the time, get shield spikes and a naglering at
least).
After that I'm swiping (similar to cleave - I know cleave isn't a real
aggro magnet, but you got other AoE tools) and trying to get a maul in
between, and I'm switching targets to give every mob a small whack as
well as fairy fire. If I see a mob heading for a damage dealer I'll
bash (stun) it. After that the first mob is alreaday down.
As soon as the first mob is down, I have already quite some threat
on all the remain ones, while the damage dealers, if they did the
job right, have none.
But really, the most important thing is cashing them in with a demo
roar and have thorns or other damage reflecting stuff on. I don't
know how many AoE tools warrior have, or how effective they are,
but not using an AoE as first action means all mobs have nothing
but proximity threat until you touch them. Which in turn means
that a 20 point heal spell is alraedy enough to get them off you.
> Plus, if I have 5 on me you have to heal me all the time = more difficult
> for me to keep them.
Au contraire. The healer has to heal the damage those 5 mobs do
anyway. No matter whether these 5 mobs are on you or on the
rogue, a 2000 heal will generate the same amount of aggro on
the same mobs.
The difference is: When the mobs are on you, the healer has to
heal less often, because you mitigate more damage than the
rogue.
You might argue now that when you have only 3 mobs on you
instead of 5, you can hold aggro easier, but that isn't true
neither. Here comes one of the keys to tanking 5 man instances:
The more mobs are on you, the more rage you'll have. And
rage = threat.
>>> If I grab the aggro from the rogue, when you heal me, all the other mobs
>>> are on you !
>>
>> That's an exaggeration to say the least.
>
> not really, it means I have to focus all my aggro management on that single
> guy.
Nope, not all. Most. And that's what you have to do anyway. Tanking in 5 man
instances means holding DPS aggro on 1 mob and holding healer aggro on the
rest.
Holding healer aggro is definitely priority #1, but you can perfectly
keep DPS aggro on one mob too most of the time.
> So how am I gonna be hated by the others ? when every heal you do is AOE
> aggro ?
By spending some attention on the rest.
>>> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
>>
>> Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
>
> been to UBRS ...
> I know there are 10 of us, but hey ! the other warrior was dpsing with a two
> hands weapons and not tanking, what can I do about it ?
> Well, please, heal the rogue doing his job ^^
UBRS is designed for 10 people, and for 2 tanks. I can't see a spot here
where there are more than 5 elites per tank neither.
If there's a rogue tanking he should of course get healed, but I wouldn't
call this is a smart choice nor a relevant example.
> even in a "trivial" 4 elites guy. One CC, 3 left.
> I will keep two of them, and let the dpsers kill the third one. Then I have
> built enough aggro to keep the two others.
> Or the dpsers could focus on "my" mob.
Vice versa. You declare one of the damage dealers as MA (main assistant).
This guy picks the next mob (preferably a hunter because of the mark,
but after the introduction of the target symbols any class will do).
All damage dealers attack whatever the MA attacks, and the tank knows
that the mob which the MA is on is the one that requires the most
attention.
> Then i have to use every skill to
> keep it, and first heal the two others are on you.
> What's your choice ?
No offense, but my choice would be another tank.
Tanking 4 mobs is fun, tanking 5 mobs is challenging, but tanking
3 lousy mobs at a time *is* trivial (excluding special mobs like
Drakkhis guards or thelikes).
As I wrote above, cash mobs in early, spend 75% of your time on
the main mob (the one being melted by the damage dealers). If
you loose aggro, no big deal (it will die soon anyway), but it
doesn't take 100% of your attention to hold it.
Keep the rest of your attention on the other mobs, either by
using AoE, or by switching targets.
Brian Trosko
> I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
> Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
> the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
> shunder comes, you can do another.
No. You clearly do not understand how threat works. One sunder is 260
threat. If you wait for one sunder, and then cast a frostbolt that does
700 damage, you've just drawn aggro. Which is dumb.
Extensive cut-and-past follows
[begin quoted text]
"Threat" is the magical number that each mob assigns you to determine
whether or not it should be attacking you, or its current target.
"Aggro" is used in two connected ways. When a mob awakens, it has
"aggroed." When a player aggroes a mob, that player becomes the current
target of the mob. Therefore, when a mob aggroes, it has selected a
target; when a player aggroes a mob, the player has become the target of
that mob.
"Pulling aggro" and "gaining aggro" mean the same thing, to have a mob
switch targets to you from its current target. Sometimes the mob's threat
list is referred to as its aggro list, since threat is the number used to
select the current target and aggro is the current selected target.
Some basic rules on threat:
Only players on the mob's threat list have threat. To get onto a mob's
threat list, you must do one of the following:
a) Perform an action detrimental to the mob (such as attack it or cast a
spell at it, if the spell isn't one of the few with no threat component).
b) Perform an action helpful to a player on the mob's threat list (such as
heal that player).
c) Get within the aggro range of the mob (modified by level of mob vs.
level of player).
d) Be in the same instance as the mob if the mob has instance-wide aggro
and one of the other three conditions are met by someone in the instance.
e) Get on the threat list of a mob linked to the mob.
Unless specially modified, each point of damage done to a mob gives the
player one point of threat. EDIT: For reference, Rogues and Warriors in
Beserker and Battle Stance cause less than 1 threat per damage, as built
in modifiers. Warriors in defensive stance do more than 1 threat per
damage. See Parrog's link below. There are also numerous talents and a
few pieces of gear that modify threat. Threat reduction and enhancement
are (as of 1.12) always multiplicatively calculated.
Unless specially modified, each point of healing done to a player on the
mob's threat list gives the player one half point of threat. Healing done
after full health (overhealing) gains no threat. All paladin healing has
further reduced threat, to prevent healtanking.
Crits generate NO extra threat beyond the extra damage/healing they do. A
crit does more threat than a normal attack only because it does more
damage than a normal attack.
Edit: Apparently, healing threat is divided over each mob with the healer
on their threat list. According to Parrog's link, anyway. Which I highly
recommend (see his post after this one).
Abilities that neither do damage nor heal have a set threat number.
Unless these are specifically listed as threat-gaining abilties, these
abilities tend to have a very small threat number.
The First Rule of Threat:
Once a mob has acquired a target, it will remain on that target until a
player within range of its melee attacks has exceeded its current target's
threat by 10%, or a player outside of the range of its melee attacks
exceeds the current target's threat by 30%.
The Second Rule of Threat:
Threat does not decay. Once you have X threat, you will retain X threat
until you raise or lower your threat through your own actions, or the mob
erases its aggro table completely. Your rate of threat gain has no effect
on your absolute threat, nor on the mob's decision to change targets.
Only your current threat compared to the current target's threat effects
that decision.
Taunt and Growl: A Warrior's Taunt or a beartank's Growl do the same
thing (with regards to threat). Both of them make the mob target the Tank
and both of them set the Tank's threat equal to the mob's current target.
This means two things:
1) If you are the current target of the mob, Taunt/Growl is not
exceedingly useful. Opening with these abilities is a complete waste
(except, arguably, for the three seconds of dedicated attacking these
abilities force from the mob).
2) If you are a DPSer and the mob gets taunted off of you, how much
damage you can do depends in large part on how late into the fight it is,
and how close you are to the mob. If it's early in the fight, you may
have to hold back. If it's later in the fight, you have to achieve more
threat to pull that threat back.
The Third Rule of Threat:
If a mob can not be taunted, and has no absolute aggro resets, the tank
MUST NOT die. An MT death on a raid boss that can not be taunted is a
wipe, if there are insufficient backup tanks at the top of the threat
list, or the boss is not very close to death (within about 3%, depending
on the boss).
Death sets your threat to 0. If the tank can not taunt to recover the top
threat spot, he must do 110% the threat of the mob's current target to
recover the top threat position. The further into the fight that this
occurs, the more impossible this is to attempt.
The Fourth Rule of Threat (the Momentum Rule):
Because threat does not decay, it has momentum. The further into the
fight you are, the more likely a mob is to stay on its current target,
barring death or aggro resets.
110% of 100 damage is a lot less to achieve than 110% of 1,000 damage, and
even that is more doable than 110% of 10,000 damage.
The Fifth Rule of Threat:
Threat is best measured in rates. If your rate of threat gain is less
than your tank's, he will gain more and more comparative threat and you
will not be achieving maximum DPS (although you may be doing optimum
damage for the fight, in terms of safety). If your rate of threat gain is
higher than your tank's, you will eventually steal threat from him... and
possibly wipe the raid.
Stealing threat from the tank is bad, and it gets worse the later into the
fight you get. See the fourth rule.
Some conclusions:
The further into the fight, the harder it is to pass threat back and forth
(barring taunts) between the tanks, thanks to rule 4.
An aggro reset (such as feign death) is more valuable later in the fight
than earlier. Late enough, and you can completely forget about pulling
aggro until everyone else is dead. If it works.
Similarly, small heals are better early in a fight, and bigger heals are
better later in a fight, thanks to the Momentum Rule. Paladin heals are
more valuable early in a fight, and druid/priest heals gain more value
later in the fight.
If you gain threat and are not a tank, your distance from the mob no
longer matters threatwise, as you are now the current target. Unless you
are kiting (and most raid mobs can't be kited), the best option is to run
to where the tank is tanking so as to allow him to recover aggro as
quickly as possible.
When the current target dies, the next target of the mob is the next
target on his threat list, irregardless of distance. Since most ranged
DPS and healers will be between 101 - 130% of the tank's current threat,
this means that the mob will begin systematically destroying the raid,
unless the tank can recover threat in time. Do not pull threat off the
tank.
Snares, knockbacks and other incapacitating effects are temporary aggro
dumps. They do not change the threat of those they effect, but they do
prevent them from being the mob's current target if there is an unaffected
target on the aggro list. It is better that the entire raid be effected
by these things than just the tanks, usually, because of the Momentum
Rule. AoE attacks from the raid mob in question may cause the strategies
to vary. If the tank has 110% of the threat of the highest raid member
unaffected by the incapacitation and is within melee range, or 130%
period, the mob will immediately revert to the tank when the
incapacitation ends. Know the mob's abilities, and judge your own safe
threat accordingly.
The key threat gaining abilities of the tanks do not scale with gear,
unlike both healing and damage. Feral tanks do scale better, as they rely
more on damage to do threat, but they suffer from a lack of itemization,
period. Sunder and the like always do the same amount of threat, no
matter how well geared the raid... this means your rate of threat will
exceed the tank's as you get better and better geared (starting about
halfway into BWL). Blessing of Salvation is absolutely essential to a
good deal of end-game raiding, therefore, and points can be shifted from
DPS talents to threat reduction talents to further help endgame DPS. This
is offset a bit by the increase in DPS by the tank himself when he gets
endgame weaponry... but not a whole lot.
These are just general rules. If anyone wants to post the exact numbers
of various threat-gaining abilities, I recommend it. For instance, I know
that Fade temporarily drops 800-odd threat, for as long as the fade lasts,
and regains it at the end of the fade duration (making fade one of the
most useless threat reduction talents, although it does have some synergy
with the 130% rule).
Addendum:
The "Priests hate Hunters" rule: If you are a hunter and are the mob's
current threat, and use feign death, you will wipe your threat from the
mob's threat list. However, this does not mean the mob will return to the
tank. Often, by necessity, healers are near the top of the threat list
(largely since tanks can tank without DPS, but not without heals... there
is no such thing as a "heal call."). This means that the mob will
automatically shift his current target to a healer... who will be standing
about 35 yards away from the tank.
Often, you, as a hunter, will not be standing next to the healer. This
means that the entire time it takes for the mob to move to the healer, the
entire time it takes for the healer to realize he's getting beaten on, and
the entire time it takes for the healer to move to the tank, the mob is
untanked. This is bad, and will probably result in the death of the
healer, several other people high on the threat list, and possibly the
entire raid.
The moral of this story: An aggro wipe is not an excuse to out-threat the
tank. Use it BEFORE you steal current target status ("aggro"), not after.
If you do pull threat, move to the tank, like any other DPSer. Don't
feign death and let the raid die in the resulting confusion.
Addendum #2: The Debuff/DoT Explanation
This is mostly about warlocks, but I've seen people make mistakes about a
warlock's actions in the past, so I recommend reading this to every DPS
class.
DoTs place the caster on the threat list, but they do not generate threat
until they actually do damage. They generate one point of threat per
damage, just like any other damage dealing mechanism. The benefit of DoTs
is that the rate of threat gain they possess is much lower than a nuke;
however, since threat does not decay, the earlier you place a DoT the
longer you have to wait until you can safely nuke.
DoTs can generally go up fairly early, but if the tank misses a sunder it
can spell trouble for the hasty 'lock/priest with a lot of +damage gear.
Because tanks feel responsible for the threat tables of the raid, it is
best to wait for the DPS call before launching DoTs... and it's not much
of a hindrance anyway, as that waiting just means you can nuke earlier.
Curse of Elements/Shadows, however, both have minimal threat and can be
thrown up after a single sunder. These are not DPS, however, and a curse
from a warlock is not a DPS call! Just because you see a Curse of
Elements up is not a reason to start launching frostbolts.
Shadow priests will often spam Rank 1 SW:P on raid bosses from the first
sunder. Since these do no damage (not being on the mob long enough) and
any damage they would do is ridiculously low anyway, the threat from these
is absolutely minimal. They are put in place solely to get the shadow
vulnerability debuff up to the full stack of five before the damage starts
to optimize the damage output of the warlocks/priests/everyone with a
shadow wand. These are also not a DPS call!
Do NOT use the debuff slots of the mob as a judge of when to start DPSing.
Not even sunder counting: an off-tank sunders as well, and those sunders
will stack with those of the tank. The only time to know when to start
DPSing is to wait for the tank to call it, even if he seems to be taking
forever.
Bonus Addendum: The Blast-and-Taunt
It is possible to make one member of the raid a sacrificial lamb when it
comes to threat with tauntable mobs. Have a raid member with excessively
high aggro generating "drawbacks", such as a Conflag' 'lock spamming
immolate/conflag/searing pain, or a hunter with aimed shot/distracting
shot, hit the mob first and get as much aggro as he can. Have the tank
then taunt the mob off the blaster, who then takes a breather (if he's
still alive) while the rest of the raid lays into the mob with less
drastic aggro-generating damage.
This has the benefit of skipping the tedious sunder build-up and greatly
speeding up the encounter. It has the drawback of not always working and
making for a messy splat.
[end quoted text]
Apheliona
"Brian Trosko" <btr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ebpuhc$1lj$2...@reader2.panix.com...
>> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
>> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
>> shunder comes, you can do another.
>
> No. You clearly do not understand how threat works. One sunder is 260
> threat. If you wait for one sunder, and then cast a frostbolt that does
> 700 damage, you've just drawn aggro. Which is dumb.
I think you might be missing agro reducing talents, spells and gear. I have
Netherwind 3 item set bonus and with a salvation, I can throw frostbolt and
crit on 1 sunder no trouble at all. If the tank has thunderfury, I usually
start DPS when I see the tank has the target. 2.5 secs is cast is more than
enough for a good tank to build agro. Everyone says it cant be done, but I'm
doing it.
If you dont have salvation (horde) or still need 3x Netherwind, spend the
first few secs casting Frostbolt (Rank 1). If you have Winters chill, you
can stack it 5x in 5 seconds (for an added 10% to crit). You might as well
use the waiting period for something usefull.
Oh and if you somehow manage to get agro - iceblock is your friend.
-Aph
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Yes, *some* dps classes aren't good players and take aggro far too much,
> but sometimes it just happens - everyone makes mistakes, and they shouldn't
> be punished with death for it. Any *good* healer would see their job as
> keeping the entire group alive, not just one other person.
Replace 'good healer' with 'good party member' and we agree :-)
Fullauto
with your attitude, will get you no where in the game. I stopped
reading after you mentioned Wailing Caverns. You need to be more open
minded, or roll a different class.
Thomas J. Boschloo
Maybe it is *YOU* who should roll a healer and get to understand that it
is not all about playing whack the weasel if you want to be above par.
At least if I reroll I would not suck at the classes you are currently
playing...
Brian Trosko
> If you dont have salvation (horde) or still need 3x Netherwind, spend the
> first few secs casting Frostbolt (Rank 1). If you have Winters chill, you
> can stack it 5x in 5 seconds (for an added 10% to crit). You might as well
> use the waiting period for something usefull.
> Oh and if you somehow manage to get agro - iceblock is your friend.
Does iceblock actually wipe aggro, or will you still be at the top of the
list when it wears off?
And if it does wipe aggro, odds are a healer's going to be the next
target.
Do you know what the actual threat multiplier from 3-piece Netherwind is?
Fullauto
Fullauto
class in WoW.
Credentials
60 Warrior
60 Mage x 2
60 Warlock
60 Druid
60 Priest
60 Hunter
60 Rogue
Only two I haven't got to 60 are Paladin and Shaman.
Once you have that kind of experience under your belt, you will look
back on this post and realize how dumb it was.
Brian Trosko
> Credentials
This means nothing, because the game post-60 is an entirely different game
than it is from level 1 to 59.
If you ding 60 with a character and then put him away and roll an alt, you
have no authority to claim in the lrn2play department. If you have at
least some Tier 2 on each of those characters, then it might be
meaningful.
PGerringer
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. By mentioning parties in WC and DM
he shows he doesn't have the experience to talk about healing or aggro
to anyone. I've taken several to 60s and now have just as many 40s. I
know how to play. I'm not an expert but I know. And, if I had the
op's low level priest in my party I would definitely think twice about
going.
Course, if its true that this is the same crap he's spouted off before,
then we can mark him as a troll and move on with life.
Lisa C
news:44df8b92$0$4531$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
> heal yourself?
>
> on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and dangerous
> to the group we are in?
>
> himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs, but
> if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
>
> large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do more damage
> than other classes do?
>
Two things tick off a mob.. getting whaled on, and someone who can heal
what's whaleing it. Translated - the DPS folks, and YOU. Enter the 'tank'
who has special abilities to turn that threat onto himself.
Sounds elementary? Sure.. now think on this. If the DPS folks are dying the
aggro is NOT ON THE TANK(s).
You're next bunkie.
If you let the DPS folks die, and you miraculously do not become the mob's
next snack, you've got a good chance of watching the mobs whale on the tank
until you are out of mana... and I guarantee you your tank is not gonna
appreciate it.
Now, I have no clue why you have the attitude to DPS classes that you do. I
assure you, in SIXTY levels, and numerous Pug's, I have never met folks who
"think they are worthy of a large percentage of my mana and casting time
because they do more damage than other classes do". What I *have* met are
folks who think that a healing class/spec should, well, HEAL. I suspect the
attitude's you are running in to are due in some part to the level you and
the folks you group with are now. If you are doing Deadmines and WC, you are
all a bit, say, underpowered within your class. All classes will get tools
to help with mana conversion, aggro management, etc. as you all level and
grow.
Here is some advice for the next time your tank loses aggro. First off
SHIELD and RENEW the dying, as you have been. Focus especially on the
off-tanks (the ones intentionally drawing aggro away from you). Remember,
that bandaging is a channeled ability. The DPS folk who are being targeted
will have that channelling interrupted. It is your job to make sure they
*CAN* bandage. If they can't bandage themselves, then it's up to you to
bandage them once shielded. I've met many folks who fail to realize that
applying a bandage has about the same 'casting' time and healing power as
casting a heal spell (at different levels - so long as you are using the
maximum bandage for your level).
Watch the warlock. Sometimes what you think is a 'DPS dying from aggro'
issue is really a mana recovery issue, as the warlock uses spirit tap. If
you see the warlock dropping mana fast, be ready to shield and help him get
his health back.
Remember that without the DPS class the odds drop for killing the mob.
Balance your mana use accordingly. Don't be afraid to shield.. and, if you
have to, yes, it is OCCASIONALLY correct to shield the tank. If the tank is
gonna die before you can heal him, he is not gonna be upset about being
unable to generate rage. Just understand the ramifications.
Fullauto
each and every one of them have at LEAST been to Ragnaros multiple
times. Therefore, I have a VAST understanding of each classes
capabilities, and challenges. The OP on this topic has a crappy
attitude, and truly lacks experience in the game. One of these spout
offs in an MC/AQ/BWL/NAXX raid and he/she would get the /gquit. If you
don't agree to that, then you also need to get some more end game
experience under your belt.
Fullauto
Above was @ Brian, no one else.
crazyfalnger
needed to reply, so I hope this hasn't already been said.
If you aren't healing your DPS classes you are a horrible healer. Lets
take my 60 rogue for example, in end game I need to be right next to
the mob, and in end game 90% of the mobs have a cleave, or AoE which
hits me regardless of my aggro level. Most hit for 1-2k damage. A rogue
only has around 4-5k buffed. My rogue only has 4k fully buffed. A
cleave takes half my life away, two kill me. So I need heals.
As a rogue I know the tank is the priority, so I do banage when I can,
but I can't always. Lets explore the snake boss in ZG. He has a holy
nova that hits for about 1000 damage. This hits about every 5 seconds
along with other hits, if I try and bandage up close I will waste a
bandage. If I back away to banage I will risk a wipe due to chain
lighting. I need heals or I will die, so will the other 3 rogues. If we
all die, so does DPS, and that also risks a wipe.
I'm not a lame ass rogue who over aggro's....I wouldn't blame you for
not healing them, but all classes need healing from time to time,
priority should always be on tank but that doesn't mean you should
ignore other classes, or say good bye to your dps and you will never
get anywhere.
Babe Bridou
> I consider myself to have the utmost understanding of nearly every
> class in WoW.
Sorry but I need to bash you a bit for that sentence:
Tell me of at least one situation in which having Blessed Recovery
increases your chance to wipe.
Tell me the difference between taunt and challenging shout.
Tell me about the "holy fire bug".
Tell me the difference between a 10 seconds rotation and a 9 seconds
rotation.
Tell me of a wipe recovery tactic involving no paladin, no shaman, no
rogue, no hunter and no warlock.
Tell me which pet does the most burst damage in this game.
Tell me the correct sequence to perform a perfect stunlock
Tell me in which situation does a druid perform a hundred percent
better than a warrior as a main tank.
Tell me which trinket helps the most with healing between a talisman of
ascendance, a zandalaran hero charm, and a royal seal of eldre'thalas.
Tell me the maximum fire resistance for a cloth wearer.
For each race, tell me of a priest build that maximizes the effects of
racial spells.
I know all the answers by heart. Do you?
>
> Credentials
>
> 60 Warrior
> 60 Mage x 2
> 60 Warlock
> 60 Druid
> 60 Priest
> 60 Hunter
> 60 Rogue
>
>
> Only two I haven't got to 60 are Paladin and Shaman.
>
sorry, I'm only 28, but
> Once you have that kind of experience under your belt, you will look
> back on this post and realize how dumb it was.
right back at you.
Babe Bridou
Fullauto a écrit :
it's /gkick.
Thomas is playing on a RP server, and his attitude as a player is
clearly in line with that of his priest from what I remember, so that
makes it "acceptable". Then again, this group is here to share
knowledge in a friendly way, not to bash away with leetness. Patience
is a virtue, which you don't seem to have here.
By the way, as an off topic note try to quote the poster you're
replying to, at least mention his name, it gets tough sometimes to
follow a discussion otherwise, as we don't always share the exact same
thread arborescence on usenet.
Marshall
"crazyfalnger" <crazyf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155574580....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I didn't read through all the posts. I just became so dumb-founded I
> needed to reply, so I hope this hasn't already been said.
>
> If you aren't healing your DPS classes you are a horrible healer. Lets
> take my 60 rogue for example, in end game I need to be right next to
> the mob, and in end game 90% of the mobs have a cleave, or AoE which
> hits me regardless of my aggro level. Most hit for 1-2k damage. A rogue
> only has around 4-5k buffed. My rogue only has 4k fully buffed. A
> cleave takes half my life away, two kill me. So I need heals.
>
> As a rogue I know the tank is the priority, so I do banage when I can,
> but I can't always. Lets explore the snake boss in ZG. He has a holy
> nova that hits for about 1000 damage. This hits about every 5 seconds
> along with other hits, if I try and bandage up close I will waste a
> bandage. If I back away to banage I will risk a wipe due to chain
> lighting. I need heals or I will die, so will the other 3 rogues. If we
> all die, so does DPS, and that also risks a wipe.
If you and other melee classes are in hacking on Venoxxis before he is
under 50% life, then you're not playing him right. What our guild has
always done, is have main tank pull him off to the side and hold him
there until the rest of us clean up the other snakes (sleeps/sheeps and
clean them up one at a time). Then everyone goes to ranged damage
on Venoxxis until he's under 50% life (MT still holding him in place),
then he can't chain-lightning anymore, and it's just a matter of hacking
him down while the MT moves him around out of the poison clouds
he spews every so often after that. Piece of cake.
-Marshall
Marypop
> Tell me in which situation does a druid perform a hundred percent
> better than a warrior as a main tank.
pleaaassssseeeee !!
I want to know ^^
Catriona R
wrote:
>Fullauto wrote:
>> It is clear that you have limited experience in WoW. This, combined
>> with your attitude, will get you no where in the game. I stopped
>> reading after you mentioned Wailing Caverns. You need to be more open
>> minded, or roll a different class.
>
>Maybe it is *YOU* who should roll a healer and get to understand that it
>is not all about playing whack the weasel if you want to be above par.
I have a lvl 55 priest and I still believe your attitude is not a good one
for a healer. I have healed up to Maraudon, and in those runs have had zero
wipes and very few deaths at all; those that have happened have been one
person maximum in a situation that could well have been a wipe, so I think
I'm not a bad healer. And my healing philosophy is to heal anyone who needs
it - tank takes priority, naturally, but I never let someone die unless I
have *no* mana at all, or am left with a choice between the tank and
someone else.
Babe Bridou
Marypop a écrit :
Mind controlling or polymorphing boss :)
Catriona R
>If you and other melee classes are in hacking on Venoxxis before he is
>under 50% life, then you're not playing him right. What our guild has
>always done, is have main tank pull him off to the side and hold him
>there until the rest of us clean up the other snakes (sleeps/sheeps and
>clean them up one at a time). Then everyone goes to ranged damage
>on Venoxxis until he's under 50% life (MT still holding him in place),
>then he can't chain-lightning anymore, and it's just a matter of hacking
>him down while the MT moves him around out of the poison clouds
>he spews every so often after that. Piece of cake.
Well that's not how my guild does it - MT holds the boss on the stairs
while we kill the snakes, then everyone goes in on the boss. Works fine for
us, so I wouldn't say anyone's "not playing it right" just because they use
a different method.
Catriona R
I think I can guess - situations where the tank can be polymorphed (such as
Voshgajin in LBRS), as I believe shapeshift makes druids immune to
polymorph? Could be wrong but it's what comes to mind for me anyway.
Marypop
polymorphing i see but MC ?
Had my druid MCed in strat yesterday he did nothing about it (was in cat
form)
what could he do ?
Fullauto
used to a normal PhPbb type skin and layout. I almost feel that I
should take the time to answer your questions, as you took the time to
type them. However, it would do no good, and I would be accused of
looking them up or something. I really have no urge to PROVE my
compitence in the game, as I know myself, as do my fellow players I
game with. You did give me a bit of understanding that you are a well
versed playerl, which I can respect. Oh, and the /gquit thing, yeah I
re-read it and realized I messed that up, but since I wasn't sure how
to edit, I left it that way.
All in all, the attitude must change with this player, unless he is a
HARDCORE RP guild, and I mean HARDCORE, he won't get picked up by
letting DPS die all the time, no debating that.
Babe Bridou
Marypop a écrit :
Ah, something new for me to learn then, we are actually not using the
druid as tank against Jin'Do for the mind control, but for the
polymorph only, it was just a coincidence that the MT was never mind
controlled :)
that said, you learn every day, here's what I just read on wowwiki
about the jin'do encounter:
"Another strategy is one that is available to be used on any boss in
the Zul'Gurub instance, but is most commonly used against Jin'do,
because it already has the potential to be a fast, furious fight: Clear
all the mobs up to Jin'do, and before engaging him, pull back a pull of
3 imps from the "Edge of Insanity" area earlier in the instance. Anyone
with an epic mount and some fire resist can do this extremely easily.
When the imps arrive, enslave them with a trio of warlocks, and begin
the fight. The imps do absolutely disgusting quantities of damage. Note
that as of this time, the "auto-cast" option on the imp's fireball
ability does not actually use it as often as possible, but rather,
simply as often as the AI decides to use it. The warlock controlling
the imp can *SMASH* the Fireball button as fast as they can to
absolutely decimate Jin'do."
Talk about a clever strategy :D
Babe Bridou
Fullauto a écrit :
> All in all, the attitude must change with this player, unless he is a
> HARDCORE RP guild, and I mean HARDCORE, he won't get picked up by
> letting DPS die all the time, no debating that.
Quoted for truth, and case closed :)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> I'm not a lame ass rogue who over aggro's....I wouldn't blame you for
> not healing them, but all classes need healing from time to time,
> priority should always be on tank but that doesn't mean you should
> ignore other classes, or say good bye to your dps and you will never
> get anywhere.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.warcraft/msg/9b5afb22b42b6424
is about a rogue over aggroing and I replied how my (RP) priest would
deal with that. I started this new thread because it seemed worth
discussing.
Of course I heal everybody if I can afford it. But when choices need to
be made I rather have the tank and myself alive instead of a rogue (or a
dumb shadow priest as in my personal experience some time ago) that
keeps all the aggro to himself and doesn't share till he is dead.
For me it is very simple:
Ask not what your healer can do for you but what you can do for your
healer -- JFK
Us healers seem to be taken for granted, and it is true that by healing
everybody that takes a hit you soon forget that we are there. And this
is how it should be!
But when this results in the tanking class being rendered useless,
something is amiss. Whether you are in a raid of 40 Tier 3 folks or if
you are doing Ragefire Chasm in a party of two for the first time.
I have quested *a lot* of my time with warriors due to a twist of fate.
I loved it when I got my catform and was finally able to out aggro the
warrior I played with (other one had leveled to fast for us). I used to
tease the warrior and see how far I could go before he let me die. In
fact I never did unless I prowled off in a different direction.
I have a HUGE respect for tanks. They are nigh impossible to kill and
yet they get all mobs just trying to do that.
If the game functions differently above MC, please let me know, but for
everything up to Gnomerian and Razorfen Kraul it works best to let the
tank grab all the aggro, the dps classes kill its main target just fast
enough not to annoy the tank and the healer will have no problem keeping
the tank alive and still keep enough mana for unpleasant surprises or if
one of the other classes hurts himself and needs a kiss.
I want to express nothing more than this,
Thomas J. Boschloo
> I consider myself to have the utmost understanding of nearly every
> class in WoW.
Then you will also understand this:
/ignore Fullauto
Bye,
Shay
Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> If I heal the rogue and he goes down, you won't gain aggro on me after
> that till we are out of combat. I will also be out of mana fast.
>
> If I don't heal the rogue the group will lose his dps, but I won't be
> next on his aggro list when he dies.
Good grief. Perhaps something more blunt...
As has been said, you need the DPS to finish the fight. And there is a
fundamental flaw here - you're assuming the rest of your party is as
self-preserving as you are. If it is, you need a new group.
Heal the rogue so the fight can be won. If so much as one mob eyeballs
My healer, I will teach them what building hate is. Hunters are famous
for wreckless aggro, trust I will get their attention quickly. :) And
my healer Better back me when I yank him clear of mobs. I hear that
only-heal-tanks crap after saving his butt, he's getting kicked. You
need to learn to do your job and trust your team to do theirs. If you
get aggro for healing, someone else should step up to deal with it.
It's hardly the end of the world. Happens often enough. Our healer
rifles off some heals, a couple mobs come for him. I spam arrows into
everything around him, priest keeps me alive while I let them batter me
and keep working on the main objective till the tank can come around
and pull them off me.
You don't seem to realize, half us DPSers go down trying to protect our
healers. It takes me one instant do just keel over and feign. It is
fear for my healer and mage's safety that keeps me standing. This is a
two way street though. If you play the everyone for themselves game,
you'll be doing a far sight more corpse runs than the hunters or
rogues. We're very capable of letting you die in our place.
If you can't trust your team and are worried with self preservation
over and above your group, you really need to be solo'ing and a priest
is a poor choice for that. The justification that keeps creeping up
repeatedly is you're afraid of aggro. It happens. Help your team and
they'll protect you in return.
Your strategy relies on catering to the lowest common denominator: how
to act when surrounded by incompetent DPSers and selfish backup. There
are perfectly good reasons good plans go awry. Any incompetent priest
can keep one tank standing when the plan is going perfectly. But what
you've shown is if one thing goes awry, you will be useless. You will
continue to perform the same task over and over apparently oblivious to
the deteriorating and changing situation around you. Anyone who is
going to target the MT and just repeatedly depress a button can easily
be replaced.
A successfull group has to be able to think, react and survive when
things go wrong. You would be you useless to them. And you will, in
fact, find yourself stuck with groups full of the very kind of people
you expect them to be. Kind of a karmic, self-fulfilling prophesy now
that I think of it...
But seriously, your actions are everything a good group would avoid.
And it may very well be why you seem surrounded by incompetence
already. The competent stay far clear.
~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
ASKF
dette:
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:21:36 GMT, "Marshall" <Mars...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>If you and other melee classes are in hacking on Venoxxis before he is
>>under 50% life, then you're not playing him right. What our guild has
>>always done, is have main tank pull him off to the side and hold him
>>there until the rest of us clean up the other snakes (sleeps/sheeps and
>>clean them up one at a time). Then everyone goes to ranged damage
>>on Venoxxis until he's under 50% life (MT still holding him in place),
>>then he can't chain-lightning anymore, and it's just a matter of hacking
>>him down while the MT moves him around out of the poison clouds
>>he spews every so often after that. Piece of cake.
>
>Well that's not how my guild does it - MT holds the boss on the stairs
>while we kill the snakes, then everyone goes in on the boss. Works fine for
>us, so I wouldn't say anyone's "not playing it right" just because they use
>a different method.
We drains his mana while MT is holding him, and then go melee + mana
conserving ranged, till he's at 50% then let the tank catch full aggro
again before nuking him away.
The benefit of doing it this way is it can be done with few healers,
because he only hit the tank with his AOE. - We even managed to pull it
through when we started out raiding with 16 man, where the best equiped
had nearly full tier0 (before the tier0.5) and one was a lvl 58 shadow
priest.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
ASKF
<vrmdnZ9nN6vVVH3Z...@comcast.com> med dette:
>Fullauto <Bam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @ Babe, please excuse my infamiliarity with these Google boards, I am
>> used to a normal PhPbb type skin and layout. I almost feel that I
>
>This is not a "google board" btw, this is a usenet newsgroup. That
>you happen to be using Google as an interface doesn't make it a google
>board.
>
>The worst thing that has happened to Usenet over the last several
>years (although not as bad as the very first 'spam' in uhhh '94 I think?)
>has been the proliferation of the web based message boards, as people
>come to usenet (typically via google these days) and bring all their
>crappy web board habits with them.
This isn't as bad as when AOL got access, so I'll place it as a #3 at
the list, though I'm not sure if MS OE doesn't challenge it too (a
server admin would say OE was worse, because they had to add a lot of
filters).
ASKF
dette:
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:27:27 +0200, "Marypop"
><am_...@hotmail.pitiepasdespam.com> wrote:
>
>>"Babe Bridou" ...
>>
>>> Tell me in which situation does a druid perform a hundred percent
>>> better than a warrior as a main tank.
>>
>>pleaaassssseeeee !!
>>I want to know ^^
>
>I think I can guess - situations where the tank can be polymorphed (such as
>Voshgajin in LBRS), as I believe shapeshift makes druids immune to
>polymorph? Could be wrong but it's what comes to mind for me anyway.
They're not immume, but they can shape shift out of it.
Catriona R
>Catriona R ytrede sig i <11d1e25v530ikghlv...@4ax.com> med
>dette:
>>I think I can guess - situations where the tank can be polymorphed (such as
>>Voshgajin in LBRS), as I believe shapeshift makes druids immune to
>>polymorph? Could be wrong but it's what comes to mind for me anyway.
>
>They're not immume, but they can shape shift out of it.
Strange, I'm sure the tooltip says "immune to polymorph" when I mouseover
my druid friend's buffs when he's in catform :-/ Another screwed up
tooltip?
ASKF
med dette:
>Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
>
>> When you have got tanks to get the aggro of yourself and bandages to
>> heal yourself?
>
>DOT's
>Common courtesy
>Bad Luck
>A real good offtank pickup that otherwise would've gone to me directly
>disabling my ability to heal mt.
>
>Just a couple I can think of
>
>> Can any able Rogue or other DPS class tell me why I should waste my
>> mana on chain healing them when the conditions are challenging and
>> dangerous to the group we are in?
>
>If they pull agro I'm checking the mt. Is he / she any good? If not,
>warn the others and go slow on the dps... If they don't, let them die
>once and warn them again immediately.
>
>If they're at 30-60% but in no immediate danger and you're low on mana
>while the fight is going on - just let them be there. They'd better
>watch out.
>
>> There are conditions where I will heal you. Like a warlock burning
>> himself out with AoE. I will be dead if he fails to kill all mobs,
>> but if it works it is a great and fast way of progressing.
>
>This is a Duh...
>
>> Just what is it with some players that they think they are worthy
>> of a large percentage of my mana and casting time because they do
>> more damage than other classes do?
>
>
>For some it's a way of life. First thing I'm telling them - a large
>repairbill is part of your way of life as well. I don't really mind
>is, except when there's no resser and I'm main healer. Then it's large
>repairbill, corpseruns and loads of anger with your partymembers.
>
>And yes, I did a baronrun making sure noone died...
>
>If you're main healer and certain people ask disproportionally much
>mana (healing), tell them. If they don't adapt their playing style,
>live with it. If they start to whine, tell 'em about healing in very
>big detail. Be able to account for every 300 mana you spent usually
>shuts them up *very* well.
>
>Having been mainhealer on both pally and druid, I can tell you some
>people just moan and bitch because I'm not a priest. I usually point
>out they're not another class as well - ask warlocks for a drink,
>mages for a summon/banish or rogues to stay aback and rangedps. It
>always works. I seldom have trouble with tanks, which proves me that
>I'm not all that bad a healer.
My favorite is to tell them to do an Innovate on me when I'm out of mana
for healing them, because they always forgets that.
I'm glad I'm playing at a old server, because most chars leveling up are
alts so they're just learning to play a new class, and are mostly very
willing to take instructions from others.
Lisa C
news:44df9746$0$4531$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> Catriona R wrote:
> [snip]
>> And you do realise bandages
>> are of no use when you have a damage over time debuff?
>
> Hehe, found that out in gnomer with my rl mage friend. We were out of
> combat (at least I was) and he had been using arcane blasts and was kind
> of hurt. So he tells me 'HEAL'. So I say 'EAT' and he dies of radiation
> poisoning.
>
> I used to try harder to keep him alive than the main tank because I
> noticed his connection dropping sometimes when we died too often in a
> row :-)
>
> It is true that some mobs hit more than just their current target. But
> basically I do claim to be a better healer because of not taking all
> crap from dps classes and acting upon draining the groups healing pool
> (by letting them die the next time they get my attention by grabbing
> more than their share of aggro)
>
> I mean. If you got crappy gear or are low level, how did you get that
> much aggro! If you got good gear and a high level you shouldn't be dying
> more than the other dps-ers either!
>
> It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
> because I happen to see the 'whole picture' more than most priest seem
> to do (or who are afraid to get flak from the dps classes they group
> with and get kicked out of parties)
Sheesh. Not content with bashing the dps classes, now you bash the priests
who have no problem with healing the entire party. Gonna have to say, if you
are 'considered by some to be a lousy healer' it could be that your attitude
is part of the problem.
>
> I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
And, I suspect your definition of 'very fine' are the tanks who did not
complain.
>
> I did get flak from dps classes and a paladin at one point and I think
> we did much better after they had left. Sometimes even without a
> replacement for them!
>
It sounds to me like you do better with fewer party members to heal.
Hopefully, that will change as you level and gain experience.
Lisa C
> Franky wrote:
>>> It just hurts me that I am considered by some to be a lousy healer
>>> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
>>
>
> Maybe because I let everyone die that they cannot keep aggro on? My
> guess is that these tanks agree with me these particular toons should
> die. Makes they job a whole lot easier
No, it does not. Any tank who tells you his job is easier if you take away
the folks doing damage, has not learned his class.
> (Disclaimer: I have never tanked
> as a warrior but did as a druid)
Don't need the disclaimer.. your inexperience is obvious.
>
>> I wouldn't group with you... very selfish attitude..
>
> Funny YOU should say this because it is in the interest of the group
> that I am doing this.
>
What you are saying is that *YOU* CANNOT HEAL a full group. So, in the
interest of the group, you heal whom you think is most important. As you
level, that attitude will bite you. As the bosses get tougher, the value of
EACH class becomes magnified. Around level 40 you will find folks opting out
of grouping with a 'tank only' healer.
Rastus
> heal yourself?
Well, I have been going to MC lately, so let me answer you:
Because I just copped a random pyroblast off a mob.
Some mobs throw aggro to anyone on aggro list.
I am banishing something really nasty which will love to jump on a healer
should I die.
Because I can't do shit when I am bandaging and when the raid wipes with the
boss at 5K life - realise that is proberly the damage lost from a single
warlock who bandaged twice.
Because I can't bandage with dots.
Because I can be interupted when bandaging and have to wait.
But, be aware I don't expect a single heal of a priest. It is usually a
shaman or a druid that throws some love my way and I never ask for it. I
keep up healthones, potions and I do bandage and I even throw a healthstones
to the preists and mages and anyone else who wants one. This means starting
MC with 40 HS and farming along the way.
Having said that though, our guild has a lot of preists and some of them
have suffered from Divine Neurosis. These are usually the ones who say shit
like the following:
"I don't heal DPS"
"I am not coming unless I get a summons"
"I am Holy spec and can't farm - the guild should support me"
But, in the end the raid will get along with or without them, they are not
one of the classes we have trouble filling spots for. The ones with Divine
Neurosis are usually the ones that find find that raids are sometimes "full
on preists" or are even asked to step aside on occasion.
And if your wondering why you should dispell a warlock, realise that the
rest of his group is going to get pissed when he waves goodbye to his 3
talent point improved imp and pulls out a fellhunter to be able to self
dispell. The last time all our warlocks had to do this I can assure you it
wasn't use who was copping the heat in vent.
Rastus
I meant Soul Shards.
Rastus
>> better than a warrior as a main tank.
>
> pleaaassssseeeee !!
> I want to know ^^
Out last guild MC run on Major Domo, after many wipes, we finally finished
after swapping out a particular protection specced warrior for a druid. I
think our guild's warrior class officer needs to spend some "quality time"
with said warrior to sort out what was happening... and what wasn't.
Babe Bridou
Rastus a écrit :
ah, the fact that feral charge can be used in combat can come handy
there (no need to stance dance), but I don't think druids have a clear
advantage here.
Christian Stauffer
>>I think I can guess - situations where the tank can be polymorphed (such as
>>Voshgajin in LBRS), as I believe shapeshift makes druids immune to
>>polymorph? Could be wrong but it's what comes to mind for me anyway.
>
> They're not immume, but they can shape shift out of it.
In caster form he's not immune, as soon as he's in cat/bear (moonkin?)
he's immune.
Chris
--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Gwaith - Short beastmaster (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Maethor - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Sian - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
lis...@red-dwarf.lan
<nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>Fullauto wrote:
>> It is clear that you have limited experience in WoW. This, combined
>> with your attitude, will get you no where in the game. I stopped
>> reading after you mentioned Wailing Caverns. You need to be more open
>> minded, or roll a different class.
>
>Maybe it is *YOU* who should roll a healer and get to understand that it
>is not all about playing whack the weasel if you want to be above par.
>
>At least if I reroll I would not suck at the classes you are currently
basically, what you are saying is:
"only the tank should have aggro. if you get aggro, you die".
bizarre...
AlphaWoolf
wrote:
>Fullauto a écrit :
>
>> I consider myself to have the utmost understanding of nearly every
>> class in WoW.
>
>Sorry but I need to bash you a bit for that sentence:
>
>Tell me about the "holy fire bug".
>Tell me the difference between a 10 seconds rotation and a 9 seconds
>rotation.
>Tell me of a wipe recovery tactic involving no paladin, no shaman, no
>rogue, no hunter and no warlock.
>Tell me which pet does the most burst damage in this game.
>Tell me which trinket helps the most with healing between a talisman of
>ascendance, a zandalaran hero charm, and a royal seal of eldre'thalas.
>Tell me the maximum fire resistance for a cloth wearer.
>For each race, tell me of a priest build that maximizes the effects of
>racial spells.
>
>I know all the answers by heart. Do you?
Some of these questions are intriguing, Babe. Mind answering the ones
I left above for the benefit of a curious audience?
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
Simon Nejmann
wrote:
>Marypop a écrit :
>> Had my druid MCed in strat yesterday he did nothing about it (was in cat
>> form)
>> what could he do ?
>
>Ah, something new for me to learn then, we are actually not using the
>druid as tank against Jin'Do for the mind control, but for the
>polymorph only, it was just a coincidence that the MT was never mind
>controlled :)
The flaw here is that mind control is not just mind control. :)
Go PvP with a priest and play with a animal druid - he is immune to
your mind control (or more likely, he is an illegal target). Priest
mind control can only target humanoids, but animal druids are beasts.
On the other hand, Lucifron's adds in Molten Core casts a mind control
that can take over any player regardless of humanoid/beast/whatever.
Jin'do's mind control totems can likewise take control over any player
regardless of form - they, however, will not mind control the person
with highest aggro on Jin'do. It is not impossible to see somebody
grab aggro on jin'do over the MT, only to have the MT mind controlled
by a totem shortly after - even in bear form.
I believe that Hakkar's and Baroness Anastari's mind controls can also
are able to take control of any player regardless of type (with Hakkar
always going for the highest aggro player, and Baroness Anastari being
random).
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Babe Bridou
> >Tell me about the "holy fire bug".
Every tick of the holy fire dot breaks fear, because it's considered as
a direct damage spell and not a dot.
> >Tell me the difference between a 10 seconds rotation and a 9 seconds
> >rotation.
You start the 10 seconds rotation with autoshot-multishot rather than
autoshot-aim shot. It's also less mana intensive.
> >Tell me of a wipe recovery tactic involving no paladin, no shaman, no
> >rogue, no hunter and no warlock.
This was discussed previously in these groups - I don't remember the
original poster though, kudos to him/her. Have the priest die, and the
druid battle rez the priest. Priest waits until everyone dies and the
fight is reset, then clicks "resurrect now".
> >Tell me which pet does the most burst damage in this game.
Ursius, elite shardtooth in Winterspring, is the only pet with a native
2.4 attack speed. The fat baby could crit as high as 700-800 damage
with a correct spec and a few buffs.
> >Tell me which trinket helps the most with healing between a talisman of
> >ascendance, a zandalaran hero charm, and a royal seal of eldre'thalas.
The talisman of ascendance, due to the 60 seconds cooldown, gives an
average of about +66 heal.
Both the ZHC and the Royal Seal give similar bonus, with a preference
to the Royal Seal when spamming flash heals (+33 heal & 4mp5 vs +36
heal average over 2 minutes), and a very slight advantage to the ZHC
when spamming heals & greater heals (+42 heal average over 2 minutes vs
+33 heal & 4mp5).
> >Tell me the maximum fire resistance for a cloth wearer.
Trick question: you can reach the fire resistance cap of 315 (75%
resist against level 63), just like all classes ;)
Now I would actually have to calculate all the items required, here's a
sum up:
head: fire goggles +17 FR, arcanum of resilience +20 FR
neck: drakefire talisman +10 FR
pauldrons: flarecore mantle +24 FR, argent dawn enchant +10 FR
cloak: wildfire cape +20 FR, greater fire resistance enchant +15 FR
robe: black ash robe +30 FR
belt: tier1 epic belt +7 FR
bracers: flameweave cuffs of fire resistance +25 FR
gloves: flarecore gloves +24 FR
leggings: flarecore leggings +16 FR, arcanum of resilience +20 FR
feet: firestrider +15 FR
ring: ...of fire resistance +22FR
ring: ...of fire resistance +22FR
trinket: ultra flash fire reflector +18 FR
trinket: ultra flash fire reflector +18 FR
off hand: one of the many with +15 FR
main hand: alcor's sunrazor +10 FR
-> 358 FR unbuffed.
you could buff that one further with buffs I think, and there are
probably more items I missed. Also with a non engineer, don't worry,
you can still reach the 350's.
> >For each race, tell me of a priest build that maximizes the effects of
> >racial spells.
This one is kind of a trick question because the racial spells have
little use in game overall. The point here is to get them to work the
best they can, not to make the priest as powerful as he could be.
dwarf: spiritual healing buffs desperate prayer effects, fear ward is
instant so it gets further buffed up by mental agility. 30 holy/ 20
discipline, 1 wherever you want.
human: same as dwarf for desperate prayer, but this time divine spirit
synergizes with the native 5% spirit bonus of the race. 30 holy/ 21
discipline.
night elf: elune's grace improves dodge ability, which helps when
channelling spells (nothing other than a shield helps with that). power
infusion helps too when channelling starshards -> 13 discipline,
including martyrdom, improved shield, and meditation, and as you
actually prefer to be critted whenever you get hit by a mob, blessed
recovery helps there a lot. Damage boost comes from spirit guidance, as
it's more reliable than power infusion -> 25 holy. For the last 13
points I would go for mental agility (for shield/grace casting), divine
spirit and 1 point in force of will. 26 disc/25 holy.
38 disc/13 holy works well, too.
undead: ah, undead.
So, will of the forsaken taken aside, you can indirectly maximize its
return by putting some points in wand mastery instead of unbreakable
will.
Devouring plague is best served with an inner focus (11 points in
discipline).
Touch of weakness & devouring plague damage are increased by all sorts
of shadow damage bonuses - go for them all, get your 31 points in the
shadow tree. What you do with the rest is up to you. I wouldn't take
aggro reduction talents, just so you can maximize the number of hits
you're taking to deal as much touch of weakness damage as possible per
cast. I would pick up resistance talents from discipline though.
troll: ah, troll, my favourite.
shadowguard procs about everything there is to proc (blackout,
shadowweaving, vampiric embrace) and scales nicely with about all that
can possibly be scaled. There is no annoying secondary effect, and the
damage is dealt in 3 times - not over 20 seconds, so it gains full
benefits from +damage gear (over 9 seconds of being struck), making it
the best dps scaling dot in the priest's arsenal, on par with
starshards (but starshards isn't shadow).
I've tested with both shadowform/darkness and spiritual guidance, and
the damage is similar. (around 185 per tick with my current damage
gear). It also works through shield, and the damage per mana ratio
increases with mental agility. It doesn't crit though, so force of will
isn't your best choice for increasing its damage.
Berzerking though increases the effect of casting spells, and works
quite nicely with improved mind blast talent (if you go shadow) and
with divine fury talent (if you go holy).
Lastly, hex of weakness is one of the few things that work with a
shield and with mental agility.
-> I would go for that one:
holy 25 for spirit guidance and divine fury
shadow 26 for blackout, spirit tap, improved mind blast, vampiric
embrace, improved vampiric embrace, shadow weaving.
spirit guidance adds overall more shadowguard damage than darkness here
(about 70 points for spirit guidance, +140 with spirit tap from these
talents alone). the breakpoint is at +190 shadow damage.
after +190 shadow damage from gear, go 31 shadow/20disc for maximum
efficiency.
Apheliona
"Rastus" <fubar-r...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:ebrj0i$1d0j$1...@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au...
>> with 40 HS and farming along the way.
>
> I meant Soul Shards.
This thread is the "Energizer bunny" of threads. It just keeps going and
going.
-Aph :)
Babe Bridou
Simon Nejmann a écrit :
Well, at least they cannot mind control my pet ;)
Some silithids perform mind controls - my pet has never been mind
controlled at any point when I solo them.
Likewise, the pet doesn't get AOE knockbacked, knockdowned, punted,
nothing like that, even against the fish boss in ZG.
Christian Stauffer
> Ursius, elite shardtooth in Winterspring, is the only pet with a native
> 2.4 attack speed. The fat baby could crit as high as 700-800 damage
> with a correct spec and a few buffs.
Ha! Finally an opportunity to a) tell you you're wrong and b) brag about
my pet :-)
The cat I have, Sian-Rotam, has a unique (among the cats) 2.0s attack
speed. That's 0.4s less than Ursius, *but* Sian-Rotam can attack out
of stealth, which means 50% more damage on that hit.
I'd bet that - given the same buffs - Sian-Rotam hits harder out of
stealth than Ursius does (without stealth obviously).
Did I forget something? Ah! ... :-p
Babe Bridou
Christian Stauffer a écrit :
> "Babe Bridou" <babeb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ursius, elite shardtooth in Winterspring, is the only pet with a native
> > 2.4 attack speed. The fat baby could crit as high as 700-800 damage
> > with a correct spec and a few buffs.
>
> Ha! Finally an opportunity to a) tell you you're wrong and b) brag about
> my pet :-)
> The cat I have, Sian-Rotam, has a unique (among the cats) 2.0s attack
> speed. That's 0.4s less than Ursius, *but* Sian-Rotam can attack out
> of stealth, which means 50% more damage on that hit.
> I'd bet that - given the same buffs - Sian-Rotam hits harder out of
> stealth than Ursius does (without stealth obviously).
>
> Did I forget something? Ah! ... :-p
GRMBL!
okay so let's go maths-heavy, Chris, you and me, mano a mano! This is a
hunter duel, orc vs dwarf!
FIRST
I concede cats have 10% more damage and 50% more damage from stealth
(grmbl, forgot about that one).
BUT
you have 50% chance that the first hit being a bite instead of your
2.0s attack!
SO
in the end 50% of the time I win
UNLESS
you deactivate both bite and claw, and reactivate them after the first
hit
WHICH MEANS
it's a pain in the arse to handle
AND BY THE WAY
good call on the stealthed Sian Rotan, you're probably right ;)
Christian Stauffer
>GRMBL!
Ha! Gotcha!
> okay so let's go maths-heavy, Chris, you and me, mano a mano! This is a
> hunter duel, orc vs dwarf!
Oh my god, maths against Babe! *Feigns death*
> FIRST
> I concede cats have 10% more damage and 50% more damage from stealth
> (grmbl, forgot about that one).
*Giggles silly*
> BUT
> you have 50% chance that the first hit being a bite instead of your
> 2.0s attack!
>
> SO
> in the end 50% of the time I win
>
> UNLESS
> you deactivate both bite and claw, and reactivate them after the first
> hit
>
> WHICH MEANS
> it's a pain in the arse to handle
Bah, we're talking about who in theory can get the biggest crits.
I win, and the sooner you admit the sooner we can forget this
shameful moment of yours :-)
> AND BY THE WAY
> good call on the stealthed Sian Rotan, you're probably right ;)
:-p
To comfort you, I only realised this after taming it. I attacked
an ogre mage in burning steppes and used just for fun prowl,
bestial wrath and devilsaur tooth (ST class trinket, makes the
next pet attack a crit) and he hit it for about 500 damage.
Highest crit according to recap is ~580, unbuffed :-)
The thing that worries me is that 580 is about what multishots
of mine crit for, and with my lousy 10% crit rate I don't see
such values often. I need more agi. On the upside, I need 1750
more rep with AD and I'm revered, which means I can turn my
insignias into an 18 slot bag and the plague hunter leggins.
Doc
"Fullauto" <Bam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155574283....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fullauto wrote:
>> I have no way to assure you I am an exper tin each class. However,
>> each and every one of them have at LEAST been to Ragnaros multiple
>> times. Therefore, I have a VAST understanding of each classes
>> capabilities, and challenges. The OP on this topic has a crappy
>> attitude, and truly lacks experience in the game. One of these spout
>> offs in an MC/AQ/BWL/NAXX raid and he/she would get the /gquit. If you
>> don't agree to that, then you also need to get some more end game
>> experience under your belt.
>
>
>
> Above was @ Brian, no one else.
>
Dude, you need to quote who you're replying to... just a few lines of quote
is sufficient.
--
Doc
'Virtute et armis!'
Llane server
60 Warrior
60 Rogue
60 Hunter
Doc
"ASKF" <nos...@askf.dk> wrote in message
news:pss1e2lvcij88u145...@4ax.com...
This is pretty much how we do it, except that by the time we have taken out
the adds, he's at 0 mana and melee go in and kick his butt.
Doc
>@ Babe, please excuse my infamiliarity with these Google boards, I am
> used to a normal PhPbb type skin and layout. I almost feel that I
> type them. However, it would do no good, and I would be accused of
> looking them up or something. I really have no urge to PROVE my
> compitence in the game, as I know myself, as do my fellow players I
IE:- He doesn't know.
Doc
"Christian Stauffer" <wildc...@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:ebsdtu$e99$1...@atlas.ip-plus.net...
>
> The thing that worries me is that 580 is about what multishots
> of mine crit for, and with my lousy 10% crit rate I don't see
> such values often. I need more agi.
No, you need more +crit gear. Hunters really get it in the butt when it
comes to crit bonus due to agi (I think it's like 50 agi per +1% crit)
Christian Stauffer
> "Christian Stauffer" <wildc...@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:ebsdtu$e99$1...@atlas.ip-plus.net...
>>
>> The thing that worries me is that 580 is about what multishots
>> of mine crit for, and with my lousy 10% crit rate I don't see
>> such values often. I need more agi.
>
> No, you need more +crit gear.
I think I need both :-/ My gear still didn't arrive at 60, and I'm
still wearing lots of shammy stuff. Which isn't all that bad, because
lots of stamina, intellect and spirits has it's advantages, but I
need to focus more on the damage stats.
> Hunters really get it in the butt when it
> comes to crit bonus due to agi (I think it's like 50 agi per +1% crit)
Yep, somewhere around that.
PV
>> You are going to open yourself up to all kinds of criticism doing that.
>
>I noticed. Both ingame and here ;-)
Then don't do that! Keeping people alive is part of the challenge. Yes,
there are incompetent DPSers. There are also incompetent tanks that make it
impossible for us to do our jobs because they don't generate enough threat.
And there are also situations (mind control, knockbacks, aggro wipes,
cleaves, aoes) where we're going to get hit even IF the tank is doing a
perfect job. And those situations become VERY common in the upper levels.
DPS classes take damage and get aggro stuck on them all the time from UBRS
onwards. Get used to it!
>I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
>Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
>the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
This is critical in raids, because if you don't give the tank/tanks a head
start, mages or rogues will effortlessly take aggro, and then the big
dragon turns on you and roasts everyone at once. In Onyxia phase 1, all the
casters use their wand and nothing else.
>As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
>one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
>shunder comes, you can do another. Or you can tag multiple mobs as a
>caster and soften them up a bit. Or my druid would do a fairy fire after
>two hits by the tank (you get a feel for this in small groups).
Good way to kill the raid. 1 sunder is not enough threat for a geared mage
fireball. The idea is, that by the time they have 5 sunders, they have
developed a full pool of rage, and gotten far enough in the lead on the
threat list that they can stay in front indefinitely, provided they don't
die.
>Why didn't the level 60 raid group do such a thing?
Until you've seen some raid battles, it's hard to understand. If you can
talk everyone into installing a threatmeter, you'll learn a lot about
what's going on behind the scenes. Even me, a mere warlock, can out-threat
a tank on my prime (non-lifetapped) mana load if I was to go nuts early in
a fight. Mages and rogues can do it without even breaking a sweat.
>> In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
>
>That is kind of cool :-) And when the DPSers die, the healers will die,
>but not all of them! It just might work <g>
If the DPSers die in raids, it's a wipe. Priests are no longer the 'save at
all costs' class once you get to raiding. For example, other than dwarf
ones on certain battles (Onyxia for example), there is never a time where I
will soulstone a priest. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
PV
>I consider myself to have the utmost understanding of nearly every
>class in WoW.
Bored now! Leveling to 60 does not mean you understand a class - it just
means you put in the time. *
PV
>clean them up one at a time). Then everyone goes to ranged damage
>on Venoxxis until he's under 50% life (MT still holding him in place),
>then he can't chain-lightning anymore, and it's just a matter of hacking
>him down while the MT moves him around out of the poison clouds
>he spews every so often after that. Piece of cake.
Correct. This is an easy fight if you do that. *
PV
>"Another strategy is one that is available to be used on any boss in
>the Zul'Gurub instance, but is most commonly used against Jin'do,
>because it already has the potential to be a fast, furious fight: Clear
>all the mobs up to Jin'do, and before engaging him, pull back a pull of
>3 imps from the "Edge of Insanity" area earlier in the instance. Anyone
The damage from those things is indeed insane, but if they die they pop
out corrupted voidwalkers. I haven't kept one other than during Edge of
Madness itself (where their life expectancy is in the 45 second range),
but I might file this under the "So crazy it just might work" category. *
Fullauto
topic. This thread is about a priest who has a bad attitude and poor
performance. I will gladly reply to your flames in a separate thread
instrad of clogging this one up.
The case was closed earlier, but a chosen few decide to tag on the
bandwagon.
PV
>This was discussed previously in these groups - I don't remember the
>original poster though, kudos to him/her. Have the priest die, and the
>druid battle rez the priest. Priest waits until everyone dies and the
>fight is reset, then clicks "resurrect now".
And without the release timer anymore, it's even easier. *
Babe Bridou
Christian Stauffer a écrit :
> To comfort you, I only realised this after taming it. I attacked
> an ogre mage in burning steppes and used just for fun prowl,
> bestial wrath and devilsaur tooth (ST class trinket, makes the
> next pet attack a crit) and he hit it for about 500 damage.
> Highest crit according to recap is ~580, unbuffed :-)
> The thing that worries me is that 580 is about what multishots
> of mine crit for, and with my lousy 10% crit rate I don't see
> such values often. I need more agi. On the upside, I need 1750
> more rep with AD and I'm revered, which means I can turn my
> insignias into an 18 slot bag and the plague hunter leggins.
>
> Chris
I did some maths but unfortunately lost it all due to a crash...
Basically: all other factors being equal, a cat with 2.0 speed
approximately equals a bear with 2.4 speed (cat has a native +10% dps,
a bear has a native -9% dps
1*0.91*2.4 = 2.184
1*1.1*2 = 2.2
So Sian Rotan's maximum crit will always be slightly superior to
Ursius'.
That said, I also found out that according to petopia (don't know if
that stat is updated), Jaguero Panthers (level 50) also have 2.0 speed,
making them an extremely easier way to tame a high burst damage pet.
And being black. Let's call them the dark side of the pet force :)
Doc
"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:44e03e09$0$4528$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> Doc wrote:
<snipped> - nothing new
> I want to ask you for an opinion. I have seen a level 60 guild raid
> Onexia and Molten Core. What I saw is that the tank and raid leader told
> the dps classes "NO DPS" then "ONLY LIGHT DPS" and finally "FULL DPS NOW".
As other have said, that'd be the Onyxia fight.
In the Ragnaros fight however, all ranged need to go flat-out as soon as
possible, even if the MT hasn't landed a hit... they are never going to pull
aggro. There are all different kinds of fights in the game
>>> Maybe in 40 man raid different rules apply, but these clowns can mess up
>>> wailing caverns or stockades just fine in my limited experience. Even in
>>> normal PvE I can't say I am impressed by these characters.
>>
>> In 40 person raids the DPSers will have their own healer(s).
>
> That is kind of cool :-) And when the DPSers die, the healers will die,
> but not all of them! It just might work <g>
lol - you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The DPSers
don't die because the healers keep them alive... it's mobs that the DPSers
are beating on that die.
>> My advice is for you to go with the flow and see what you think later on
>> when you are more experienced.
>
> I rather ask here than get flak in an instance.
You don't get flak for letting DPSers die? Pulleth the other one, it playeth
a comely sound.
> I think that if the tank
> is good I will let DPS classes die if I feel they badly aspire to do so.
>
You are still of that opinion after reading all the responses in here? Wow
man, it must suck being you.
Doc
Here's a flame for you.
Quote your posts dammit!
Rene
> "Babe Bridou" <babeb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> This was discussed previously in these groups - I don't remember the
>> original poster though, kudos to him/her. Have the priest die, and the
>> druid battle rez the priest. Priest waits until everyone dies and the
>> fight is reset, then clicks "resurrect now".
>
> And without the release timer anymore, it's even easier. *
Doesn't battle rez vanish after at most one minute as an option ? You
can't hold on to it as long as you wish.
CU
René
PV
>> And without the release timer anymore, it's even easier. *
>
>Doesn't battle rez vanish after at most one minute as an option ? You
>can't hold on to it as long as you wish.
Dunno, never been the target of one. Sniff. *
PV
>You don't get flak for letting DPSers die? Pulleth the other one, it playeth
>a comely sound.
Ha! I did that quest on my rogue just last week. *
Catriona R
It doesn't give any indicator of having a timer so far as I remember, but
I've only been ressed with it 2 or 3 times and wasn't paying that much
attention, it was more a case of "ooh a res, click accept" :-) I'll take a
closer look if I get one again sometime, might try and test it with a druid
friend next time he's online.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
>> I have been with some very fine tanks since the day I started playing
>> and not a single one was unhappy about my group performance.
>
> And, I suspect your definition of 'very fine' are the tanks who did not
> complain.
In fact I asked loads of questions to my guild priest who also has a
high level warrior. And I asked here. And I experimented a lot if the
party allowed for that. One particular warrior I quested with for a
couple of days was very harsh towards other players joining our party
but seemed to love me. (I remember him ignoring a druid wanting to join
us at Dun Modr for not buffing us without being asked. I thought the
druid was educatable and we could have used the MotW and Thorns (we
failed the demolionists because I wasted some mana on offensive spells
and I didn't know about the bandage while shielded trick yet [kudos to
Lisa C]))
As my first character (above level 10) was a druid I learned about
tanking and healing from very early on. I sucked at first like anybody
else. And our first Wailing Caverns was a nightmare because the four of
us together (hunter,warrior,warrior and me a druid) didn't know how to
play in a party and we wiped numerous times (I remember the sleeping
spells I got because I (as I now think) had healer aggro most).
But I got better and I got more eccentric (also due to RPing my
character. That wears off on me somehow. I almost feel feminine if I
play her for too long). Now I would do WC with any random threesome of
us and not wipe a single time (two others have also gotten much better
over the last year. Though they hit 60 and 56 and I stayed at 32 while I
rerolled on another server where I played exclusively with a mage,
learning yet more about aggro management with my new druid. All he
wanted to do was instances and more instances, where we grouped with
very diverse players, some with which I got a very good online
relationship (I remember a dwarven hunter that set a lot of traps and
(off)tanked with his pet (which I healed /and/ buffed). When you play
with a hunter, mage and druid bringing the pet out is more than logical,
won't you agree?)).
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Anyone who is
> going to target the MT and just repeatedly depress a button can easily
> be replaced.
I have a problem with this. This is exactly what I try to avoid doing.
Didn't you read my comment about comparing healing with triage? Triage
is far from easy. I know someone who has a cd where you learn Triage.
Believe me, if you or me try that program for the first time everybody
would die. She actually pulled it of after some time I think (but she
can stand real blood and wounds very well also while I cannot, I would
rather receive first aid from her than from a real doctor).
1] You cannot safe everybody
2] If the tank drops all mobs on him will move elsewhere
3] A DPS class will generally have fewer mobs on her than the tank
4] Every heal brings you aggro
5] Every heal brings the target aggro
And I am not even talking about mana requirements here. You think
balancing these variables is trivial? Think again, there are even more.
Pushing a button over and over again is what I think *MOST* priests do
up till a very high level. I have seen a level 60 playing in a raid a
number of times and it looked easy. Just whack everything that turns red
in CTRA. Remain motionless when you oom and wait for some mana to
regenerate and spam it on the tank that is down most!
In fact, someone once posted this about not wanting to heal anymore:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.warcraft/msg/ebaedba780e45daf
Healing can be very challenging when you see it as triage and not like
'whack-a-mole' at all!
Sure, you will do fine in all but the top guilds if you just flash heal
everything that drops in your raid window. Combined with +healing and
+spirit gear you will go far. But letting certain players die based on
past performance by denying them medical care is /sooo/ much more
interesting.
Brian
alt.games.warcraft.
>>>> Meet a 6-7 mobs pack and we'll talk about this again !
>>>
>>> Which pack of 6-7 elites are you talking about?
>>
>> been to UBRS ...
>> I know there are 10 of us, but hey ! the other warrior was dpsing with a two
>> hands weapons and not tanking, what can I do about it ?
>> Well, please, heal the rogue doing his job ^^
>
>UBRS is designed for 10 people, and for 2 tanks. I can't see a spot here
>where there are more than 5 elites per tank neither.
>If there's a rogue tanking he should of course get healed, but I wouldn't
>call this is a smart choice nor a relevant example.
I've done UBRS plenty of times as the only tank. And yes, I can hold 6
mobs against healer aggro just fine, but in pulls that large I'm guaranteed
to lose the mob that is taking DPS. I won't even try. So my Rogue MA
*really* needs to be getting heals, our strategy requires it.
A well-geared Rogue can hold aggro on one UBRS-level elite just fine most
of the time. But it'll kill him if he doesn't get at least a couple of
heals.
Brian
--
ICQ#: 68214833 | AIM: LineNoise54
.
Budget: Something we go without to stay within.
Brian
alt.games.warcraft.
>
>"Brian Trosko" <btr...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:ebpuhc$1lj$2...@reader2.panix.com...
>>> As a mage I would want to start doing dps early on. Like when there is
>>> one shunder on a target /everybody/ can do one attack and when the next
>>> shunder comes, you can do another.
>>
>> No. You clearly do not understand how threat works. One sunder is 260
>> threat. If you wait for one sunder, and then cast a frostbolt that does
>> 700 damage, you've just drawn aggro. Which is dumb.
>
>I think you might be missing agro reducing talents, spells and gear. I have
>Netherwind 3 item set bonus and with a salvation, I can throw frostbolt and
>crit on 1 sunder no trouble at all. If the tank has thunderfury, I usually
>start DPS when I see the tank has the target. 2.5 secs is cast is more than
>enough for a good tank to build agro. Everyone says it cant be done, but I'm
>doing it.
The top raidguild on Ysera recently got a Thunderfury for their maintank.
They got really lucky with bindings, so the rest of their raidgroup isn't
fully epic'd out, although they're coming close.
Their new guild motto is this: "Thunderfury proc'd, DPS on full"
Brian
--
ICQ#: 68214833 | AIM: LineNoise54
.
Red meat isn't bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is.
Thomas J. Boschloo
Granted.
I never said Rogues cannot hold aggro. In fact, they hold aggro (on
single mobs) a bit too well :-) The healer awaits the same fate as the
Rogue if she manages to peel off an angry smell mob from you <giggle>
If it is really too much for me and my friend Rogue to deal with on our
own the whole party can be in jeopardy. If it takes too long and costs
too many heals, likewise.
You seem like a capable tank, I would just follow your directions
blindly if you gave them to me. Didn't spend a full year as a draftee
for nothing after all :-) My priest is very good in following orders if
she needs to (even if it seems stupid to her at first)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> And if your wondering why you should dispell a warlock, realise that the
> rest of his group is going to get pissed when he waves goodbye to his 3
> talent point improved imp and pulls out a fellhunter to be able to self
> dispell. The last time all our warlocks had to do this I can assure you it
> wasn't use who was copping the heat in vent.
You are not a DPS class silly. You can get all the heals you want! And
every buff or debuff I have as long as it won't be back on your in no-time!
Also seems a bit hard to remove your DoT from a mob, so what can you do
but wait for your mob to die?