Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)
BRo...@yahoo.com
This morning I get on with my 39.9 hunter and my wife shows up with her
42 warlock to help me to a quest or two to hit 40. Said hi to the only
person on in the guild I joined last night, we talked, she said she'd
be glad to join. About a 34 Priest, if memory serves me well. We met
up and started killing miners and getting crystals on the side of a
hill in goofy terrain. A Druid shows up and starts doing the same quest
a the same time, so it gets a little confusing as to which hit is
which, etc.
Suddenly, the priest starts asking questions of the Warlock (who
happens to be played by none other than my wife) about why this minion
and not that, etc. Then, slowly, a she dosn't stop I realize she's
starting to tell my wife how to play the thing -- where's your imp, why
not a VW cause it's better, etc. etc. etc. etc. My wife, angel that she
is, ignores it, but is upset to have somebody out of the blue start
offering to play her character for her.
I get the last crystal, the lock and the priest both died, my wife
logged out because she had to go get a daughter registered in school.
Now, I voiced disapproval of somebody spewing out constant advice
without being asked, got some answer back, and promptly /ignored the
person. In comes another wsp from her husband saying I had put the
guild head honcho on ignore. I said I didn't care WHO it was, if a
level 60 in Epic showed up and started pontificating about how a
certain character SHOULD be playing his character, they're out of
there. I promptly quit the guild.
This guy and I talked, and thought we had it more or less settled, he
told me how difficult his wife can be, but then he flared up at me
again, so I just signed off and went to work.
Now, as the "group leader" or as the "husband" or as a "concerned
co-player", am I wrong? I hunt up level 60s, let's say, and ask
permission to ask them questions about their builds, pets, etc, and
usually find some insanely nice people. I wouldn't ever personally
think of suddenly setting up a class on playing a party member's
character by remote control or constant, unending suggestions.
Anyway, I'm still bewildered and, frankly, pissed. My wife? She's in
line over at the school.
Best,
Mike Gaskins
it's especially annoying to have people telling you what you should
have put your talent points into (yes I'm a frost mage and don't have
Improved Blizzard. Sue me.).
Luckily my guild generally is pretty good about this and the only
complaints I've gotten have been from people in PUG's (which is why I
very, very rarely do PUG's anymore).
BTW, why not post the guild name and server? It would help others get
a better picture of the guilds in general. No sense making somebody
else find out about their attitude on their own.
Mike
crazyfalnger
with some twit of a rogue who kept telling me to stand to back so I
wont get aggro. I was the highest level in the group. I was only
getting aggro because I had to keep healing him, and we were wiping
because he would keep sapping (no imp. sap) before I mana.
I explained to him two times that it makes no difference where I stand.
The third time he told me stand back, I blew up at him. I was yelling
at him because he was causing us to do poorly with his lousy pulls,
furture more I don't get aggro by being close, I get aggro from
healing, furture more I need to be near the tank so he can't taunt the
mobs off of me....furture more, you are a stupid rogue, use feint, we
are wiping because you suck. I know how to play your class, have a 60
rogue, you obviously don't know how to play mine.
So it goes both ways, sometimes advice is needed, coaching can be a
good thing. At other times it is just annoying. Some people play wow
and think they know everything. I think my almost 3 level 60's and
countless alt's speak for my wow know-how, yet I never really tell
people what to do. I only tell people how to play their class if they
are new and requesting help, or if they are causing us two wipe.
ps. After telling off the rogue I got called a ninja for rolling a
+shadow damage gear, because I'm a shadow priest, but because I'm a
priest I don't have any shadow damage. The rogue stayed until the end
of the library, rolled need on both doan's robe(green cloth) and
illusionary rod(blue staff) good thing for the group he lost both of
them and was booted. I already had better stuff so I didn't care, but
really the nerve of some people?!
Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind
knowing what to do can be a bit more rewarding. But this is about
pontification so here's my take.
As long as you're playing solo I don't care how often you die or how
you play or how efficient you are at farming.
But, if we're guildies and you're in a group or a raid with me and your
mistakes are causing me to die then I will be start giving you advice.
I usually won't press the matter but if this keeps up I will just move
on. But if we're on a raid MC + and you're playing playing badly and I
advice you but it is ignored then the gloves come off.
Its basically how much of the group game you impact I think.
Besides, people are way too hung up on positive criticism wrapped in
flowers and candies :)
BRo...@yahoo.com
Mike Gaskins wrote:
> You'll run into these types of people from time to time. At lvl 60,
> it's especially annoying to have people telling you what you should
> have put your talent points into (yes I'm a frost mage and don't have
> Improved Blizzard. Sue me.).
>
> Luckily my guild generally is pretty good about this and the only
> complaints I've gotten have been from people in PUG's (which is why I
> very, very rarely do PUG's anymore).
>
> BTW, why not post the guild name and server? It would help others get
> a better picture of the guilds in general. No sense making somebody
> else find out about their attitude on their own.
>
> Mike
>
<<CLIP>>
Well, I really didn't want to come on and post the server/guild name
simply because I didn't want to be misunderstood as bitching and
somehow trying to inflict a bit of self-satisfying revenge. But I thank
you for your kind words and support. Met someone form that guild last
night and he couldn't have been nicer or more helpful, so I joined up.
Then, this morning, the whole line of crap that I went into in the
original thread.
Anyway, I'm on Scarlet Crusade and, although it's a small chance, sort
of a note thrown out in a bottle, if there are any good guilds out
there -- moderate rp is even fine, but mostly nice people helping out
each other is what I want -- let me know in a reply here.
Still checking back in today to see what other reactions might be...
Good journeys,
BRob
gaf1234567890
> Now, as the "group leader" or as the "husband" or as a "concerned
> co-player", am I wrong? I hunt up level 60s, let's say, and ask
> permission to ask them questions about their builds, pets, etc, and
> usually find some insanely nice people. I wouldn't ever personally
> think of suddenly setting up a class on playing a party member's
> character by remote control or constant, unending suggestions.
>
> Anyway, I'm still bewildered and, frankly, pissed. My wife? She's in
> line over at the school.
I don't think there is really a "wrong" or "right". As a MMO game,
there is both the upside and downside of having to deal with other
people. And keep in mind that some of these other people are pretty
young too.
Anyway, you were upset by the other players behavior and you did what
you thought was necessary. I can't find fault in that.
If it were me, I'd have just made up an excuse to disband the group...
gone and got a snack... then resumed playing as a Duo. Or if it was
clear this other player was going to be in the area, just mention that
you're a real life couple and just want to play together for a while
(no one wants to be a 3rd wheel).
I probably wouldn't have ever gotten into an argument over it. Nor
would I have looked at it as defending my wife's honor. She's capable
of fighting her own battles, and speaks her mind just fine when someone
pisses her off.
crazyfalnger
jes....@hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> That annoys me. Warlocks and such who bitch about priests taking
> "warlock gear" can talk to my middle finger. Actually, unless an
> item is specifically lableled as being for a particular class I get
> mad when people have very rigid rules about what classes can/should
> roll on a particular item ... who knows, maybe somoene is actually
> trying to break out of the cookie cutter molds.
Well there wasn't a warlock in our group anyhow. I was the only person
who could use +shadow, and lucky for me these +shadow shoulder pads
replaced my grey ones nicely. Incase anyone hasn't realized, a shadow
priest can heal any 5-man instance with ease. A feral druid can also. A
retro pally(I know from experience) can also heal any 5-man instance,
and I'm sure a shammy could too. These healers just have to try a bit
more because they aren't as effective as their holy/resto counterparts.
My retro pally healed(using blessing of light on the tank, blessing of
salvation on all others) so far up to ST. The last scholo run I had,
our only healer was a pally. We did fine. A shadow priest can heal a
whole hell of a lot better then retro pally.
I guess people get confused with running something simple like SM or ZF
with end game raids where bosses require perfect planning and the
healer has to heal before the tank even needs it. Oh well.....
Shay
jes....@hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind <tie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But, if we're guildies and you're in a group or a raid with me and your
> > mistakes are causing me to die then I will be start giving you advice.
>
> all the standardized cookie cutter-ness that's out there?
>
> Not saying one has to group with them, but my beef is typically with
> the 'learn your role!' and 'learn how to play your class!' people.
I think I'd have to lay the blame down on the guild in the OPs case. It
seems clear the OP walked away feeing they were being lectured for
their 'mistakes'. It's a guild's job, IMO, to train (to fight
cohesively, not to play their class correctly) and further their
members. But when members walk away feeling Blamed for something, the
leaders have failed in their job on two levels. One, people are not
inspired by criticism. If morale is low, it will affect performance.
Two, this Is a game. If you're upsetting people, you're ruining time
they've paid for and set aside in their real lives to enjoy themselves.
When I'm leading a team, I won't hesitate to speak with members if
things are going badly. Perhaps the lock has an odd pick for a demon
that keeps getting killed, maybe the warrior just got a new rifle and
keeps Barny Fife'ing, preempting the hunter pulling, marked mobs keep
getting sheeped in mid attack... Whatever the case, as a guild, we
strive to perform as a Group. To build a synergy, it requires learning
to mesh our talents together. That sometimes requires we learn to do
things differently to compliment one anothers' strengths and
weaknesses. But the words "you're doing it wrong" are never spoken.
Clearly, if they do things a certain way, they've met with success in
the past. It's not for me to second guess how best they should play
their class.
I've always found the best way to approach team members is to explain
things from the team's perspective. Yes, a big blue demon is
outstanding at tanking, but we as a group might be being eaten alive by
caster mobs and the lock could save our skins if they'd be willing to
whip out a fel for us. In lieue of telling someone they're doing
something wrong, it is just as easy and considerably more polite to
point out their particular talents they have that would help their
team.
And I'm sincere in that. It's not a word trick to get someone to
cooperate. Some things only a particular class can provide. And if it
is only explained to people corteously, it is usually more than enough
incentive for everyone to get on the same page. And unless you're
currently under attack, ASK someone if they mind doing something a
particular way. And explain why. Have a dialogue for God's sake instead
of assuming you know how to do things better. It's just as easy to say,
"Hey, if you were to switch to a fel, ya think it could keep those
casters from having our lunch? We're having some serious trouble
surviving them."
If it continues to cause issues and I cannot convince someone to try
something more suitable for the group, I just let it be. Sometimes
groups just don't mesh. If it causing trouble, I just won't work with
them in the future if they're inflexible. I'm not going to demand they
play a certain way, but if it is detrimental to the group, I Will make
sure they don't do it next to me in the future.
~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrazsa
paul...@yahoo.com
> is, ignores it, but is upset to have somebody out of the blue start
> offering to play her character for her.
There is your problem. You wife should have just told the other person
to chill.
I get this sometimes but mostly with my priest - HEAL NOW! Throw
SHIELD! , etc.
I tell them to chill. If they continue, I leave but most people stop
once you tell them to.
Some people think they are being "helpful" and don't realize they are
being asses.
Now if we wipe or I let them die then they can tell me what to do...
ASKF
<1154986445.1...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> med dette:
I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that
someone needed healing, especially since he would have died several
times, if I ever waited to start healing him till after I was told.
Most healers laughed, and the raidleader got the point.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
lis...@red-dwarf.lan
i like the sound of "let them die"... quite fitting for a shadow
priest, mwahahahaha!
seriously though, i was in MC tonight with 2 people from my guild who
have done the dirty on me but something inside me just would not let
me NOT heal them, even though i think they thoroughly deserve it :)
Simon Nejmann
<tie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think a lot of people can afford to play better. In a long run
>knowing what to do can be a bit more rewarding. But this is about
>pontification so here's my take.
>
>As long as you're playing solo I don't care how often you die or how
>you play or how efficient you are at farming.
Aye, and agreed.
>But, if we're guildies and you're in a group or a raid with me and your
>mistakes are causing me to die then I will be start giving you advice.
>I usually won't press the matter but if this keeps up I will just move
>on. But if we're on a raid MC + and you're playing playing badly and I
>advice you but it is ignored then the gloves come off.
>
>Its basically how much of the group game you impact I think.
Yes, it is very much a factor of how much your "mistakes" or
"non-optimal playstyle" affects "things" - and what these "things"
are.
For example, if it is a 5man group and you play less that optimally,
but we still make it and without wiping (excessively) or taking way
too long time, then so what? In the end it really doesn't matter, we
get there eventually.
After all, where does the nitpicking otherwise end?
On the other hand, if we got 40 man in a raid dungeon and you go and
do something completely daft that you should have known not to, and
which winds up wiping us, then it is a different matter.
This also has a lot to do with it being worse to waste 39 peoples time
than it is wasting the time of 4...
There are, of course, plenty greytones in between those two areas -
but all together Im not at all a fan of telling people how to play.
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Simon Nejmann
wrote:
>It happens all the time my friend. Just the other day I was doing SM
>with some twit of a rogue who kept telling me to stand to back so I
>wont get aggro. I was the highest level in the group. I was only
>getting aggro because I had to keep healing him, and we were wiping
>because he would keep sapping (no imp. sap) before I mana.
>
>I explained to him two times that it makes no difference where I stand.
Actually he did have a point, sort of...
If you are in melee range you need 110% of the aggro of the highest
person on the aggro list for the mob to turn on you. If you are
outside of melee range you need 130% of his aggro.
Of course, if you have to heal a tank-wannabe rogue who is getting the
snot kicked out of him, then it doesn't take all that much longer to
go above 130% than it does 110%... But you _do_ get aggro more easily
in melee range than you do at range.
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
JohnR
<BRo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154975225.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
share of fragile sensitive types who like to treat others in a manner that
would have themselves flying in a rage.
iibm...@yahoo.com
regards
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Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind
This is a bit of a tangent but sort of on topic.
I mentioned earlier that if they are in a raid and their performance is
causing me to die or their lack of performance is causing the raid to
fail, then I will speak up.
I am an officer in my guild and I've gotten in a few mess because I
have told certain people that they are underperforming and so forth.
Its not even as wildly tangential as a Warlock wanting to Melee, its
more Paladins wanting to DPS and Druids wanting to go Bear or Owl. And
I admit they are all viable under certain circumstances, stuns from
Paladins are great. Bear and Owl are also awesome for support roles.
But by and large I have often come at odds with some people who want a
more laid back approach.
I am not trying to say I'm right and they are wrong, but I feel that in
certain situation, especially when you are part of a team you are
expected to pull your own weight. Granted, a 5 foot person can be a
linesman but I much much prefer my linesman to be 6 foot + and 300+
lbs. Do what your class is best at, kinda deal.
So in the OT, I would have been the jackass :)
But I see both sides of the situation, and if the druids wanted to go
bear in UBRS that's fine, but I will not be there with them :)
drocket
>Out of my various chars, the priest seems to get the most flack in
>this regard. I think it comes down to most people not really playing
>priests as well as people getting pretty sensitive when it comes to
>healing. Well, that and 'healer' often being viewed as a second class
>citizen in a group (If I get called 'priest' one more time, I'm going
>to melt their face).
Having played a priest, I definitely know what you're talking about.
I think, however, that druids have it the worst. At least half the
time when you try to join a group as a druid, you get asked
point-blank what you're spec is. If you're not pure resto, you're not
coming. Period. At least a shadow priest can GET into a group, even
if you spend half your time being bitched at for not having the best
spec FOR THEM.
Matt McLeod
>> mistakes are causing me to die then I will be start giving you advice.
>
> all the standardized cookie cutter-ness that's out there?
This is one of the things I love about my guild. Our GM is a frost
mage. Who tries to tank. We have a priest who routinely leads the
charge. We also have a hunter who is generally acknowledged as being
the best PvP hunter on the server, so it's not all silly.
(We also aren't a raiding guild. We have arrangements with some
raiding guilds so members who want to do that can, but it's not
the primary focus.)
That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
avoid grouping with him now.
Matt
ASKF
dette:
I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.
The funny part were that I only needed help for healing a couple of
times, and most of the time I had it fairly easy, because of the priest
casting Vampiric Embrace. We also enjoyed each others company so much,
the we did Scholo three times in a row, so the ones who hadn't completed
all the quests could get it done (this was before the 5-man limit was
made, while it was hard getting a party to go there).
ASKF
<1155001859.9...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> med dette:
>Giving people advice.
>
>This is a bit of a tangent but sort of on topic.
>
>I mentioned earlier that if they are in a raid and their performance is
>causing me to die or their lack of performance is causing the raid to
>fail, then I will speak up.
>
>I am an officer in my guild and I've gotten in a few mess because I
>have told certain people that they are underperforming and so forth.
>Its not even as wildly tangential as a Warlock wanting to Melee, its
>more Paladins wanting to DPS and Druids wanting to go Bear or Owl. And
>I admit they are all viable under certain circumstances, stuns from
>Paladins are great. Bear and Owl are also awesome for support roles.
>But by and large I have often come at odds with some people who want a
>more laid back approach.
If you're an officer in a raiding guild, I can only say I support your
standing. We're always asking people if they would be willing to respec
to meet the needs of our guild, and tell them that it's the ones with
the prefered specs who get selected first for the raids.
We do accept any spec for alt chars, because it's often more important
to get a feral Druid if no other Druids are avalible, than missing out
of their abillities (especialy since Evocation have become a base
skill).
The most important factor is that people can play their class well, and
utilise the special benefits of their build, however it do demand some
adaptabillity from the raidleader, because some small changes to the
normal tactic might be needed.
>I am not trying to say I'm right and they are wrong, but I feel that in
>certain situation, especially when you are part of a team you are
>expected to pull your own weight. Granted, a 5 foot person can be a
>linesman but I much much prefer my linesman to be 6 foot + and 300+
>lbs. Do what your class is best at, kinda deal.
>
>So in the OT, I would have been the jackass :)
>
>But I see both sides of the situation, and if the druids wanted to go
>bear in UBRS that's fine, but I will not be there with them :)
I've done an UBRS run with a dis/holy priest as main healer and me as
shammy as secondary. We had another priest with us, but he was only
tossing 1-2 heals during the whole raid, otherwise he were there for
DPS. The druids changed between cat and bear form, depending of the
need, and we only had one near wipe.
If you got the needed healing, it is stupid not to get the extra tanking
or dps from a feral druid, thus I'll urge you to reconsider your opinion
and give it a try now and then.
Valjean
news:E_mdnZMEnsmLK0rZ...@comcast.com...
> crazyfalnger <crazyf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Well there wasn't a warlock in our group anyhow. I was the only person
>> who could use +shadow, and lucky for me these +shadow shoulder pads
>
> are considered to be "warlock items" if there is a lock in the group
> (with my priest at least). Never let it be said that I don't put
> some thought into who/what is going to get mad at me wanting a particular
> item and avoiding those people :)
>
>> replaced my grey ones nicely. Incase anyone hasn't realized, a shadow
>> priest can heal any 5-man instance with ease. A feral druid can also. A
>> retro pally(I know from experience) can also heal any 5-man instance,
>> and I'm sure a shammy could too. These healers just have to try a bit
>> more because they aren't as effective as their holy/resto counterparts.
>
> (which is incorrect in a lot of places). For instance, look at the
> priest forum - full of stories of people who get compliments on healing
> and then go shadow at the end just to amaze the group. Personally,
> I wouldn't roll like that - but it must be pretty humorous.
My shadow priest is a terrible "healer" - I would like to claim it is role
playing but it is actually just that I can only stare at health bars for so
long before losing the will to move my fingers. I run Scholo and spend about
60% of the time in shadowform, only dropping out for boss fights and risky
groups - Strat is harder but possible depending on the group but possible
(though I wouldn't want to try a 45 minute run.)
One plea for the healer though, Hunter if you are laying a frost trap for
some wierd reason at least let us know - I very nearly lost my eyballs when
staring at the health bars last night when one went off...
--
Tixover / Stalls / Tlxover / Mum (EU Terenas)
gernot almen
news:glgfd29rul7vejahe...@4ax.com...
> I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
> kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
> that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that
Raid healing (as in 40 people raid) is somthing compleatly different. Here
you NEED somebody to tell 5 priests (+dudus +pallies/shammies) who heals
whom and how and when, or you will fail. But thats not the job of the raid
leader, but of the most expirienced healer PLAYER. And the healer who
doesn't do as he's told (or at last tries to) will not be on our next raid.
Apoptygma
effectivness as a healer, a shadow priest in all +heal gear with good
spirit will outheal a fairly average geared holy spec, when spirit tap
procs from a random SW:P kill you'll do better mana-wise than most holy
preists too.
Simon Nejmann
wrote:
Yes, but I somehow don't think that is what ASKF was talking about...
The healing leader in a raid starts out by calling stuff like: "A, B,
& C heal that tank. D, E, & F heal that one. You others look after so
and so" - basically laying out the general plan.
On the other hand, I think that ASKF was taking about a tank getting
low on health in the middle of combat, and the raid leader then
yelling: "Heal tank-x NOW!!!" over teamspeak.
Of course, I could be wrong...
It is impossible for a leader (raid, healing or otherwise) to
micromanage people to that degree. Mostly you, imho, just have to lay
the basic guidelines down, and then expect your members to be
intelligent enough to stick to it - or break away from it if the
proverbial excrement hits the rotary cooling device.
Eg. something unexpected happens and a mob shifts to another tank -
then the healers better be smart enough to switch their focus along
with the mob as well...
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Simon Nejmann
wrote:
>That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
>using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
>killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
>stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
>avoid grouping with him now.
Aye, and that is the other side of the coin...
Having some bastard sitting there trying to play your character by
proxy sucks. But on the other side, suddently finding out that nobody
wants to play with you anymore has got to be sad too - and even more
so if you don't know why...
This is where being nice can backfire - now, I'm not saying it is the
case here, but what if that hunter don't know what he is doing wrong,
and nobody wants to tell him because they don't want to be mean? They
just all start avoiding him, and he sits there alone and without a
clue...
Sorta like the friend who can't tell that he smells - nobody tells him
because they don't want to seem mean, but on the other hand they also
all avoid him because they can't stand the way he stinks.
Bah! Damn all these grey areas - makes this all too complicated... :)
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Marypop
it is not all about healing !
so many people telling me how to tank please ...
if i'm not sunder*5 it is because I'm doing something else !
It is not my only way to build aggro, and not even the best way ok ?
So please let me do my job ^^
I got whispered by every player in the last PUG I did, that I should do
sunder max.
And the point was ... on every boss I was not losing aggro !
So, just learn, we, warriors, have other abilities, like the GREAT aggro
generator : revenge.
Those can not proc any time (sunder can when you have the rage for it)
So, if i focus on sunder, when i reach 5 of them what sould i do ?
sunder for nothing as the mob already has 5 of them on him ?
Thanks for not telling me how to play :p
As a truth, I do tell other people how to play, but very rarely.
Remember going to uldaman with a warlock who didn't use life tap even once
and refused to soulstone the healer/rezzer ...
Urs Steiner
Marypop wrote:
> answering there ...
>
> it is not all about healing !
>
> so many people telling me how to tank please ...
>
> if i'm not sunder*5 it is because I'm doing something else !
>
> It is not my only way to build aggro, and not even the best way ok ?
>
> So please let me do my job ^^
>
> I got whispered by every player in the last PUG I did, that I should do
> sunder max.
It's often used as a sign when to start ataccking.
> And the point was ... on every boss I was not losing aggro !
>
> So, just learn, we, warriors, have other abilities, like the GREAT aggro
> generator : revenge.
jup.
> Those can not proc any time (sunder can when you have the rage for it)
> So, if i focus on sunder, when i reach 5 of them what sould i do ?
> sunder for nothing as the mob already has 5 of them on him ?
actually, sunder has 2 (3) purposes, and only one of these is limited to
a stacking of 5.
Purpose 1: reduce armor of target. Only stacks to 5, for 30s. needs to
renewed after that.
Purpose 2: generate aggro. NO stacking limit! As you need to renew
anyway for purpose 1, just do it.
Purpose 3: many groups just say: after so-and-so-many sunders, you can
attack. You certainly can also have a damage-go macro you hit when ready.
Admittedly revenge is the better aggro generator if you can use it, but
sundering is not for nothing after the first 5.
HTH
Urs
--
mail: urs [dot] steiner [at] switzerland [dot] org
"The 'H' stands for horrible, right?" * Lister's Confidence
frood
news:4jri7gF...@individual.net...
Ok, I'm still new to this, but I have a lvl20 Warrior (used to be my main,
but found I like my rogue better, so now he is my main alt <G>) that I'd
like to learn to play well. I've read Marypop and Urs' posts, but I'm afraid
I don't understand most of the jargon.
Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?
And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound like
I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
aggro.
If this matters, my warrior uses a 2-hand axe, and I'm speccing him towards
Arms.
--
Wendy
Marypop
> Hiho
>
> Marypop wrote:
>> answering there ...
>>
>> it is not all about healing !
>>
>> so many people telling me how to tank please ...
>>
>> if i'm not sunder*5 it is because I'm doing something else !
>>
>> It is not my only way to build aggro, and not even the best way ok ?
>>
>> So please let me do my job ^^
>>
>> I got whispered by every player in the last PUG I did, that I should do
>> sunder max.
>
> It's often used as a sign when to start ataccking.
well, they can start when i say "go" ^^
>> And the point was ... on every boss I was not losing aggro !
>>
>> So, just learn, we, warriors, have other abilities, like the GREAT aggro
>> generator : revenge.
>
> jup.
txs ... many non-tanking-players think i'm non sense if not sundering
>> Those can not proc any time (sunder can when you have the rage for it)
>> So, if i focus on sunder, when i reach 5 of them what sould i do ?
>> sunder for nothing as the mob already has 5 of them on him ?
>
> actually, sunder has 2 (3) purposes, and only one of these is limited to a
> stacking of 5.
> Purpose 1: reduce armor of target. Only stacks to 5, for 30s. needs to
> renewed after that.
yep but ...
believe me, on a boss fight, the stack 5 is easily reached anyway.
I don't care if dpsers loose a few dps if i have to build my aggro (sue me
!)
they'll have their sunders when they'll have it.
they'll have my shout when they'll have it.
My fist job is to keep aggro of the boss I think.
> Purpose 2: generate aggro. NO stacking limit! As you need to renew anyway
> for purpose 1, just do it.
yes but i prefere to generate aggro the most efficient way, which is for me
revenge whenever I can do it.
My sunder generation is not on auto-flag button !
I will sunder when i have rage and can't revenge. count on me.
> Purpose 3: many groups just say: after so-and-so-many sunders, you can
> attack. You certainly can also have a damage-go macro you hit when ready.
>
>
> Admittedly revenge is the better aggro generator if you can use it, but
> sundering is not for nothing after the first 5.
Yep I know that. But I definitively think it's a waste of rage anyway as one
sunder every 30s is enough to keep the 5 stacks. And I have improved revenge
(not playing VHL). "they" don't complain when I stun the boss ^^
drocket
<frood...@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?
The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
but healers as well.
>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound like
>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>aggro.
You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
skill.
>If this matters, my warrior uses a 2-hand axe, and I'm speccing him towards
>Arms.
Something you need to know is that you're not actually a tank unless
you have a shield. Using a 2-handed weapon or dual-wielding works
fine solo, or if someone else is going to tank while you do damage,
but a warrior without a shield just does not work as a tank, at least
past level 50.
frood
news:g6lhd25e0uu1523hp...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:43:20 GMT, "frood"
> <frood...@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>
>>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?
>
> The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
> of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
> your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
> but healers as well.
>
I'll get better with practice.
>>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound
>>like
>>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>>aggro.
>
> You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
> automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
> skill.
>
>>If this matters, my warrior uses a 2-hand axe, and I'm speccing him
>>towards
>>Arms.
>
> Something you need to know is that you're not actually a tank unless
> you have a shield. Using a 2-handed weapon or dual-wielding works
> fine solo, or if someone else is going to tank while you do damage,
> but a warrior without a shield just does not work as a tank, at least
> past level 50.
I have a 1-hand sword (not a good one) and a shield (not bad for a
low-level). I understand the principle of a shield so healers don't have to
heal so much, but since most of my play is solo or duo with my spouse, I'm
not overly concerned yet with changing this yet. But, there must be some
purpose for a non-tank warrior, just as there is for shadow priests and
feral druids. Not the most common spec, but still a valid choice of
playstyle.
--
Wendy
>
Ham Pastrami
> co-player", am I wrong? I hunt up level 60s, let's say, and ask
> permission to ask them questions about their builds, pets, etc, and
> usually find some insanely nice people. I wouldn't ever personally
> think of suddenly setting up a class on playing a party member's
> character by remote control or constant, unending suggestions.
You'll get this a lot as a warlock. People love to tell you which pet to
use, and sometimes you'll even have two other people arguing over which pet
you should use. Neither of them will bother to ask you, the warlock, for
your opinion. You really do have to just ignore these people. I get even
more heat because I'm DS-spec, and when raiding I get numerous complaints
about not having the imp buff. In order to avoid arguing with guildmates I
simply tell them that I'm DS. This is a lead-in. If they then ask what that
means or what significance it has, I flatly reply to them that people who do
not know or understand DS are not informed enough about warlocks to dictate
our tactics. That shuts them up real fast.
Brian Westley
>On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:43:20 GMT, "frood"
><frood...@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?
>The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
>of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
>your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
>but healers as well.
Heh. I found this option a few weeks ago, and it's useful for PvP
as well - this is what happened when I was grinding in WPL for
ironweb spider silk:
I'd killed some spiders and was drinking; I was scanning around as
usual, and a horde rode near and stopped. I clicked on him to have
him selected in case I needed to attack, but kept drinking with my
back to him.
He paused, then backed up a bit, and rode off without dismounting.
I think he was thinking of attacking, but then saw I was already
targeting him and knew he was there, so he left instead.
>>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound like
>>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>>aggro.
>You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
>automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
>skill.
For mages, their earlier abilities are still usable. I have macros to
throw rank 1 fireballs and frostbolts when I hold down the shift key,
which are much faster and cheaper to cast, if I need it for a faster
DoT or kite move.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
AlphaWoolf
>using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
>killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
>stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
>avoid grouping with him now.
Haha, I just ran into another hunter that was doing this. It sure
looks impressive doesn't it? :) Then again, loooong ago, my warlock
used Rain of Fire on bosses. Difference being I did that in BFD, and
this guy was in Scholo. By the time I hit SM I knew the shadowbolt
was king. Well, except for that Firestone-assisted melee phase I went
through...
These days I (think) I know 3 classes really well, but I do hesitate
to comment on others' techniques. I can learn from their mistakes,
and quietly steal their good ideas too. If it's not getting us killed
why stir up something with someone who's paid their 15 bucks to have
fun?
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
Shay
Matt McLeod wrote:
> That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
> using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
> killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
> stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
> avoid grouping with him now.
Ew! Now there is a fine line between out-of-the-cookie-cutter-box and
inadvisable. But some things are quite clearly off in the left field of
just plain stupid. :)
The only two instances I've usually found volley useful for is 1) if a
clothey is getting swarmed by a bunch of mobs, it redirects their aggro
onto me quickly 2) laying down to add a bit of dps to a group our mage
has always frozen in place and is AoEing. Compared to other options,
volley just irritates a lot more than it kills - piddly damage.
Hunter's have Far too many precision aggro management tools available
to have any excuse for sloppy pulling. Overpulls rank right up their
with bad pet control and warrior-envy in "things that make other
classes despise us". There's little excuse for any of them.
On a side note, there's been a lot of talk over guild requirements for
respec'cing. As a guild leader and a non-standard build myself, I try
to take rote wisdom with a grain of salt. I don't really care What the
traditional builds are. We evaluate people solely on their performance.
Come to think of it, I have never personally asked a member What their
build was. I just want to know specifics on what they can do, what I
can expect and what areas they won't be able to cover - especially
important if they don't fill traditional roles well like healing.
As long as I know in advance, we're good. If someone tells me their
priest doesn't heal, I make sure everyone has an adequate supply of
bandages and potions and the 'lock sees to healthstones. As long as
they can make up for the lack of healing in DPS, we're good. But I
expect to see the mobs dropping significantly faster. If they do, fine,
we need less healing anyways. I've never been averse to trading out
defensiveness for aggression. Either style works, so long as the person
is competent in what they Can do.
I'm mainly MM with just enough BM to give my pet more tankability. My
armor's ratings laughable, my stamina frail, my mana runs out swiftly.
But at 404 agility I put some breathtakingly large holes in enemies
with arrows. Most importantly though, I know my limitations. The only
time you'll see my axes out are for a wingclip or disengage. They're
just handheld agility items otherwise and I have No business being in
melee. That's my kitty's job.
And there's no issues with the guild or even PUGs on the rare occasion
I go with one. I just make it very clear. I'll be laying down a lot of
damage, but forget me for melee. If you need something pulled off you,
run AWAY from me and get to bow range if necessary and I'll yank 'em.
So, as a guild leader, I can honestly say, any build is welcome. You
likely won't even be asked what yours is. Just make sure it is
effective and you know how to play it and we won't ask any problems.
But if you're a mage and keep charging ahead with an icy enchant on a
glorified stick, or a hunter playing warrior and tying up our healer
with keeping you alive constantly, you can expect a serious talking to.
The line is when you stop being an asset and start being a gold/xp
sponge, or flat out danger, to the rest of your team.
~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
Joerg Vohn
> I think, however, that druids have it the worst. At least half the
> time when you try to join a group as a druid, you get asked
> point-blank what you're spec is. If you're not pure resto, you're not
> coming.
So I'm quite happy if the people ask me about that, because I'm
feral-skilled.
When they ask about that, I don't want to go with them because they show
up that they don't know anything about the abilities of a druid and I'm
glad that I don't waste time with these poor noobs.
Actually, I don't go anywhere with random groups anymore, only with
other guild members. My experience teached me - unfortunately.
Matt McLeod
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:35:47 +1000, ma...@boggle.org (Matt McLeod)
> wrote:
>>
>>That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
>>using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
>>killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
>>stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
>>avoid grouping with him now.
>
> Haha, I just ran into another hunter that was doing this. It sure
> looks impressive doesn't it? :)
It does indeed. I suspect he'd only recently got it (this was in ZF),
and he seems to be about 13, so he probably just thought it looked
really cool. He was setting it off every time its cooldown ran out.
> Then again, loooong ago, my warlock
> used Rain of Fire on bosses. Difference being I did that in BFD, and
> this guy was in Scholo. By the time I hit SM I knew the shadowbolt
> was king. Well, except for that Firestone-assisted melee phase I went
> through...
I did this once with Blizzard in SM -- I don't run many instances --
and immediately twigged that it hadn't been a good idea, apologised,
and haven't done it again except when dealing with big piles of
non-elites where it is actually appropriate.
I think we were all hoping that the hunter would have a similar
experience.
> These days I (think) I know 3 classes really well, but I do hesitate
> to comment on others' techniques. I can learn from their mistakes,
> and quietly steal their good ideas too. If it's not getting us killed
> why stir up something with someone who's paid their 15 bucks to have
> fun?
That's pretty much my attitude, but then again I'm not doing end-game
raiding, and if I ever do it won't be in quite the serious way some
people do. I can see where the min/maxers are coming from, I just
don't find it much fun.
Matt
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
> group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
> asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
> help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
> able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
> us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.
That must have been one happy kitty :-) I expect he purred a lot to you
in catform <g>
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> It happens all the time my friend. Just the other day I was doing SM
> with some twit of a rogue who kept telling me to stand to back so I
> wont get aggro. I was the highest level in the group. I was only
> getting aggro because I had to keep healing him, and we were wiping
> because he would keep sapping (no imp. sap) before I mana.
>
> I explained to him two times that it makes no difference where I stand.
> The third time he told me stand back, I blew up at him. I was yelling
> at him because he was causing us to do poorly with his lousy pulls,
> furture more I don't get aggro by being close, I get aggro from
> healing, furture more I need to be near the tank so he can't taunt the
> mobs off of me....furture more, you are a stupid rogue, use feint, we
> are wiping because you suck. I know how to play your class, have a 60
> rogue, you obviously don't know how to play mine.
I would just not heal the rogue. In fact, if rogues or other dps classes
die and they are not vital in order to avoid a wipe right then, I let
them die. If they remain steady at a certain health level it must have
meant they lost their aggro somehow and _then_ I heal them by bandaging
or just the largest heal I have (if mana is not on a ration).
1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
This is only something I started doing as a priest and not as my druids
yet but she would give remarks like:
"Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
"Man, you must have had some aggro dying that fast! I did not notice you
drop, sorry"
"Sorry, I was healing the tank, but you would have been next on my list;
honest!"
"Hehe, you need to get rezzed again? Though luck for you today man!"
It might sound arrogant (and it is). And I must admit, I *love* letting
people die if it saves the rest of the party /plus/ some rogue learning
about aggro management for the first time. Healing is a lot like Triage
I think when it get challenging. Let the players who are beyond hope of
recovery die fast and help the ones with mild ailments.
Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
two mobs.
What scares me a little bit is if tanks get out of my line of sight, but
that usually happens early in a battle giving me time to find the tank
and PW:S him or something. I usually throw lesser heals and stuff early
on to give my +spi some benefit from itself so my mana bar is always
regenerating, so I find out they are not in my line of sight real quick.
DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals. I am still
learning after all and getting aggro sooner helps me learn how to avoid
it :-)
Regards,
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Sorta like the friend who can't tell that he smells - nobody tells him
> because they don't want to seem mean, but on the other hand they also
> all avoid him because they can't stand the way he stinks.
For Taurens it doesn't matter. Everybody know they smell bad and they
know it themselves also :-) Yet they are the kindest and most gentil
race in the WoW universe.
"I smell bad? Oh, must have forgotten to wash my fur this week"
Ever wondered why male taurens always scratch themselves during
conversation?
hehe,
frood
"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:44db46c7$0$4528$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Thanks for the rogue tips! I learn alot from reading this group. I do most
of my play solo or duo with my pally spouse. The tips on getting aggro off
me are helpful for when I play in groups.
--
Wendy
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Thanks for the rogue tips! I learn alot from reading this group. I do most
> of my play solo or duo with my pally spouse. The tips on getting aggro off
> me are helpful for when I play in groups.
I must warn you that my priestest is still level 32 but I did a lot of
low level instances with my (both) level 32 druids (both sides,
different servers). But this is how I play with the experience I have
and it seems to work.
What I really love doing is e.g. the low level instances without a tank,
letting e.g. a higher level (experienced) rogue tank. Last instance
(stockades) I did was with a friend warrior and my priest and a skilled
hunter (who did no ice traps iirc) and a inexperienced druid and a trash
shadowpriest (who also played a rogue main).
I really gave my friend warrior a hard time keeping aggro and later in
the followup in the keep I even stole it from him so he would gain
tanking experience in this. He complained about himself not being able
to hold aggro but with the shadow priest (max aggro all the time) and
druid (wandering off at times and giving no thorns on the tank nor MotW
on other party members) I told him he did a really great job and that is
what matters.
I think there is a movie of a couple of mages doing mc really fast. Must
have been a thrill for the priests in that raid group!
I might even like pickup groups now that I think of it :-) They are
nicely unpredictable. Some other players from PUGs made a real lasting
impression on me, but that is what happens on a mature server where
people level their alts.
I also learn a lot from this group btw, I love AGW!
gernot almen
> die and they are not vital in order to avoid a wipe right then, I let
> them die.
That's what gives us priests bad reputation. Arrogance.
And by the way: DPSer dead -> no demage -> longer fight -> healer oom ->
wipe
> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
This thread started with somebody teaching an other clase unasked - and
getting spanged for doing so.
> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
So you ly, and don't even teach him as intended. He only learns that you are
an incompetent healer for not paying attention.
> It might sound arrogant (and it is).
Yes, indeed.
> And I must admit, I *love* letting
> people die if it saves the rest of the party
But a rouge dead out of spite doesn't. If you were chainhealing the tank or
feared to go oom otherwise, I whould acept this.
> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
> two mobs.
The mob 3 and 4 whould be dead, hade the DPSer lived a little longer. And
don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.
Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a board
when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.
> I am still learning after all
I realy, REALY hope so.
Dan
>It might sound arrogant (and it is). And I must admit, I *love* letting
>people die if it saves the rest of the party /plus/ some rogue learning
>about aggro management for the first time. Healing is a lot like Triage
>I think when it get challenging. Let the players who are beyond hope of
>recovery die fast and help the ones with mild ailments.
Be aware then, that most rogues will vanish rather than die (flash
powder is much cheaper than repairs) - and the moment they vanish
they'll lose aggro and the mob that was hitting them is going to
start hitting you - especially if you don't have the aggro-reducing
talents for healing. Now your party's in bigger trouble - you've
lost around 25% of your damage output /and/ your healer's being beat
up. Would you then not heal yourself, since you shouldn't have aggro
and you need to learn a lesson?
When I play my priest, I consider it a point of personal honour that
no one dies if at all possible. Even if it happens to be a bad pug
that keep making bad pulls, you're going to get through faster and
more successfully if everyone survives. And not to mention you can a
reputation as being a priest people can depend on rather than an
arrogant one.
The vast majority of instance pulls do not require chain-healing and
do not drain a priest's entire mana pool, so there's no reason not
to throw shields, renews, heals on other members of the party as
well as the tank.
Dan
ASKF
<44db3f73$0$4529$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl> med dette:
>ASKF wrote:
>[snip]
>> I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
>> group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
>> asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
>> help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
>> able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
>> us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.
>
>That must have been one happy kitty :-) I expect he purred a lot to you
>in catform <g>
Indeed he did, especially since he could need on both druid and rogue
stuff.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
ASKF
med dette:
>On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:44:55 +0200, "gernot almen" <amit...@gmx.de>
>wrote:
>
>>"ASKF" <nos...@askf.dk> wrote in message
>>news:glgfd29rul7vejahe...@4ax.com...
>>> I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
>>> kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
>>> that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that
>
>>Raid healing (as in 40 people raid) is somthing compleatly different. Here
>>you NEED somebody to tell 5 priests (+dudus +pallies/shammies) who heals
>>whom and how and when, or you will fail. But thats not the job of the raid
>>leader, but of the most expirienced healer PLAYER. And the healer who
>>doesn't do as he's told (or at last tries to) will not be on our next raid.
>
>Yes, but I somehow don't think that is what ASKF was talking about...
>
>The healing leader in a raid starts out by calling stuff like: "A, B,
>& C heal that tank. D, E, & F heal that one. You others look after so
>and so" - basically laying out the general plan.
>
>On the other hand, I think that ASKF was taking about a tank getting
>low on health in the middle of combat, and the raid leader then
>yelling: "Heal tank-x NOW!!!" over teamspeak.
>Of course, I could be wrong...
You've got the point.
We'd discussed the healing strategy among the healers, so some were
using the fast heals, while others were using the large heals. This ment
that the tanks sometimes looked like they wasn't being healed enough,
although they would have full life 1-2 sec later.
>It is impossible for a leader (raid, healing or otherwise) to
>micromanage people to that degree. Mostly you, imho, just have to lay
>the basic guidelines down, and then expect your members to be
>intelligent enough to stick to it - or break away from it if the
>proverbial excrement hits the rotary cooling device.
>Eg. something unexpected happens and a mob shifts to another tank -
>then the healers better be smart enough to switch their focus along
>with the mob as well...
The raid leader shouldn't have to assign specific people, but let it be
up to the classes to figure out who's best suited for a job. All a
raidleader should do is to lay out the general tactic, and then give
notice when the tactic is changing to another step or if other sudden
changes is needed.
AlphaWoolf
<nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>Simon Nejmann wrote:
>[snip]
>> Sorta like the friend who can't tell that he smells - nobody tells him
>> because they don't want to seem mean, but on the other hand they also
>> all avoid him because they can't stand the way he stinks.
>
>For Taurens it doesn't matter. Everybody know they smell bad and they
>know it themselves also :-) Yet they are the kindest and most gentil
>race in the WoW universe.
>
>"I smell bad? Oh, must have forgotten to wash my fur this week"
>
>Ever wondered why male taurens always scratch themselves during
>conversation?
They scratch themselves between bow shots at 500ft epic bosses! When
do they NOT scratch? You name it, if there's a Tauren involved
there's some scratching going on. They really should give all Taurens
some flea repellant (or make that idle animation a *tad* less often
used). :)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Now your party's in bigger trouble - you've
> lost around 25% of your damage output /and/ your healer's being beat
> up. Would you then not heal yourself, since you shouldn't have aggro
> and you need to learn a lesson?
As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
PW:S being cast on the run)
I am usually the first to die in parties because of this (if the tank is
good and the rogues are competent and don't try to steal aggro from the
tank)
I feel sorry for the shadow priests that keep grabbing aggro and which I
thus won't heal after some time of this taking place, who will then try
to heal themselves to no avail because there is no way the tank can grab
back all that aggro they got upon themselves (and neither can I)
Maybe at the end of a fight I will heal the dps classes but I rather
heal non-squishies.
I am a holy discipline priest btw. If I wanted to do ranged cloth dps I
would have rolled a mage.
I also don't want crits. And I think a hunter, mage or rogue shouldn't
want that either when they are in a party. I think it is insane some
people spec for this (unless they want to PvP rather than PvE)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
>> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
>
> So you ly, and don't even teach him as intended. He only learns that you are
> an incompetent healer for not paying attention.
Maybe he will be more careful next pull when first he dies a couple of
times. Any class that loses a lot of health points with each hit is a
bad class to heal. And that includes YOU, no matter how much dps you can
do! Just what is it you think that tanks are supposed to do?
> And
> don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
hitpoint left.
Druids (my favorite class) do not even have fast heals like priests and
paladins do. They have to plan ahead. Spamming Regrowth is very wasteful
and will wipe a party sooner or later.
>> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
>> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.
>
> Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a board
> when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.
>
>> I am still learning after all
>
> I realy, REALY hope so.
Sounds like someone didn't get his heals today.
Nikolas Landauer
> Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> >
> > Ever wondered why male taurens always scratch
> > themselves during conversation?
>
> They scratch themselves between bow shots at
> 500ft epic bosses! When do they NOT scratch?
> You name it, if there's a Tauren involved there's
> some scratching going on. They really should
> give all Taurens some flea repellant (or make
> that idle animation a *tad* less often used). :)
All the idle animations have that issue, but only the obvious ones make
it, well, obvious.
Male night elves actually have a valid reason to be emo: with the way
they're constantly shifting their shoulders and neck, dislocation can't
be far off.
--
Nik
Thomas J. Boschloo
>> would have rolled a mage.
>
But I can do that on usenet for free :-D
Regards,
PV
>1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
>anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
>2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
You, sir, are an incompetent healer. Letting a DPS class die is a great way
to guarantee a wipe, since you can't damage your way out of an overpull. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> writes:
>> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
>> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
>> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
>
> You, sir, are an incompetent healer. Letting a DPS class die is a great way
> to guarantee a wipe, since you can't damage your way out of an overpull. *
You can't damage your way out of an overpull in either case, so what is
the difference? The difference is that I have enough mana and _time_ to
heal the tank which gives the tank a chance to grab aggro again. (using
e.g. Retaliation or Challenging Roar as a druid)
Another thing is that the mages and shadow priests won't run out of mana
by going full out and be useless anyhow. (shadow priests should conserve
mana for healing in your scenario).
And that I won't get the aggro they had stacked up by doing full DPS
until I cannot heal all of them anymore and some start to die.
If I am going to heal DPS classes I had better be told beforehand
because I won't last very long if we do. Ever tried staying alive with
your tank gone? Ever tried tanking without getting heals landed on you
because your priest bought it?
I am all in for healing DPS classes if asked for. But my low level
instance experience has learned me that such parties don't last long and
certainly don't reach the end boss. Yes, just letting players die, I
also enjoy *wiping* because I am right. And I would do it again and
again till they ask me for some input on how to do it better.
In your situation Holy Nova might be called for, but just like a mage
with Arcane Explosion I can't keep that up for long.
hth,
Brian Trosko
> This thread started with somebody teaching an other clase unasked - and
> getting spanged for doing so.
If the information that someone is giving out is factual, there's no
reason to 'spang' him for it unless he's coming across as an arrogant
twat.
I've come across a lot of would-be tanks who don't know that they should
be sundering, and I tell them that they probably want to look into
using it, because it's by far the best non-reactionary threat-generator
they have, especially if they're not prot-specced (379 threat compared to
363 from Shield Slam, but if they don't have shield slam the next best is
Heroic Strike at 211). I've seen warriors who never switch stances,
probably because they don't know what Tactical Mastery is for. Paladins
who won't aura. That kind of thing.
If you're just running around solo, that doesn't matter, but if you're
grouped, your group can wipe or win based on how well you play your class,
so if you're playing your class poorly, expect suggestions on how to do a
better job. How else are you going to learn how to improve, especially
if you're not asking for advice?
Brian Trosko
> [snip]
> >> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
> >
> > So you ly, and don't even teach him as intended. He only learns that you are
> > an incompetent healer for not paying attention.
> Maybe he will be more careful next pull when first he dies a couple of
> times. Any class that loses a lot of health points with each hit is a
> bad class to heal. And that includes YOU, no matter how much dps you can
> do! Just what is it you think that tanks are supposed to do?
Yep. If you're a DPS class and you're taking aggro from the tank, either
the tank's not doing his job or you're not doing yours. If you're a
rogue, that's why you have feint (-600 threat), which you should be
spamming every time it's available for mobs where getting aggro from the
tank is a bad idea. And if something really gloms onto you, that's why
you have Vanish, a complete aggro wipe. And it's also why you have
bandages.
In 5-mans, this stuff isn't such a big deal. But in raid instances, you
need to do what you can to make the healers have to not worry about you.
> > And
> > don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
> Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
> everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
> hitpoint left.
Yep. Full long-cast heals also let you start casting, and then move to
cancel the cast if someone else lands one in the meantime.
Brian Trosko
> >recovery die fast and help the ones with mild ailments.
> Be aware then, that most rogues will vanish rather than die (flash
> powder is much cheaper than repairs) - and the moment they vanish
> they'll lose aggro and the mob that was hitting them is going to
> start hitting you
Not unless the healer is next on the list.
frood
news:ebiaqb$snm$1...@reader2.panix.com...
*raises hand* My warrior never switches stances. I can't figure the whole
thing out. I just got a nice one-hand sword and reasonable shield, so I can
tank a little better (rather than 2H axe), but the instructions from the
trainer don't really cover how to use the various skills. My guild is full
of hunters and paladins, so I haven't gotten much advice from them (except
how to play my rogue, but they don't have much clue there, either).
So, asking for advice here... my lvl22 (just barely) Warrior wants to know
when/how to switch stances, and in what order to use the skills.
--
Wendy
Shay
Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...
"rogues (and tanks)" ?????
Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?
You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in
melee, believing you have support when you start taking hits for the
party. IMHO, if you let your anger get in the way of doing the job
everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
course).
~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrazsa
Shay
Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
> or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
> me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
> PW:S being cast on the run)
>
First to die in these parties where you use withholding healing as a
punitive measure for irritating you? I'd humbly submit there may be
some direct cause and effect here... :)
~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
Marypop
>
> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
> two mobs.
ok ...
do you REALLY think that if you don't heal before the last possible moment
the tank is going to :
- live ^^
- look for more mobs to aggro ? the tanking / healing is a win-win trade.
Tou heal me I keep the aggro.
Catriona R
wrote:
>Dan wrote:
>[snip]
>> Now your party's in bigger trouble - you've
>> lost around 25% of your damage output /and/ your healer's being beat
>> up. Would you then not heal yourself, since you shouldn't have aggro
>> and you need to learn a lesson?
>
>As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
>or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
>me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
>PW:S being cast on the run)
>
>I am usually the first to die in parties because of this (if the tank is
>good and the rogues are competent and don't try to steal aggro from the
>tank)
That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.
>Maybe at the end of a fight I will heal the dps classes but I rather
>heal non-squishies.
It's your choice but I wouldn't wish to group with a healer who used your
tactics. When things go wrong and you just can't keep everyone alive, then
of course concentrate on the tank, but allowing your dps to die when it's
not necessary makes it a lot harder to get through a fight.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
Brian Trosko
> *raises hand* My warrior never switches stances. I can't figure the whole
> thing out.
Thing about not switching stances is that if you just play from battle
stance, you're basically playing only a third of your class. There's
useful stuff in all three stances, depending on the situation. One of the
most significant is that where, normally, dealing 1 point of damage gets
you 1 point of threat, if you're a warrior in defensive stance, dealing 1
point of damage gets you 1.3 points of threat, a flat 30% enhancement to
your aggro-holding without factoring in any other bonuses.
> So, asking for advice here... my lvl22 (just barely) Warrior wants to know
> when/how to switch stances, and in what order to use the skills.
This is a very good thing to read for everyone, but tanks especially:
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.html
PV
>Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...
>
>"rogues (and tanks)" ?????
>
>Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?
Thomas is talking out his ass on this. I have a feeling he's the kind of
healer that only gets to work with pickup groups, because nobody will group
with him as solo healer twice.
>You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
>them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
>line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in
What you're going to have is broken groups and people moving you into the
red zone on their Karma list. Healers that let people die in 5-mans are bad
healers - there is simply no excuse for it. It's not much different in
raids either - anyone who gets an attitude lets people die on their watch
won't be invited back.
>everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
>venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
>yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
>course).
Indeed. This is why priests are hard to come by - the good ones get sick of
their job, and the bad ones destroy groups. *
Shay
jes....@hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
> much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.
LOL Our priestess does that constantly. I think she knows half the
time, but she just refuses to tend to herself while she has people in
danger. It's far more precious than frustrating to us I think. It's
nice to have someone that dedicated at your side. /grin I find myself
rushing forward with a bandage occasionally though after clearing mobs
off her. I'll take that any day compared to the other extreme though.
Catriona R
>Catriona R <catrion...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
>> shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
>> probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.
>
>The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
>much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.
Same :-) But by accident isn't as bad as deliberately not healing - that
particular tactic is way too risky for my liking.
I think I heard somewhere that shield causes less aggro than a heal; I
don't know if that's accurate but when I get aggro I normally fade, if that
doesn't work, shield myself and add a renew if I've taken more than a
little bit of damage, only give myself a proper heal if it's really needed.
But my health is low (only 2.5k when self-buffed, about 2k unbuffed) so I
really need to keep it topped up or I'm in deep trouble if I get aggro.
Perhaps it's less needed if I have more health but it's so hard to get a
balance between enough health, enough mana and enough mana regen (and
+healing) - currently my full healing gear is 3.8k mana, 2.1k health,
210ish spirit (adds up to 27.5 mana/5 sec inside the 5 second rule when
self-buffed with divine spirit), 22 mana/5 sec and 129 +healing... probably
needs work as a lot of it's low-40s blues and I'm 55 :-)
drocket
wrote:
>That's what gives us priests bad reputation. Arrogance.
>And by the way: DPSer dead -> no demage -> longer fight -> healer oom ->
>wipe
Pretty much the same thing as the alternative: healer blows all his
mana on the idiot DPS who doesn't know how to control aggro -> wipe.
The only difference is that not healing the idiot DPS guy MIGHT teach
him how to control his aggro, which is a lot better than them
repeating the same mistake forever.
Marshall
Unless you are the slickest and most clairvoyant healer in the game,
with a direct mental link into the game engine which will tell you
exactly when the unexpected will happen and some huge crit or other
sudden damage spike is going to take out huge chunks of your heal-
target's lifebar, this is a formula for losing a lot of players. Cast big
heals a lot if you wish, but don't be planning them to hit when your
friend is down to just a sliver of life left. You'll be too late by then,
quite frequently. Heh, even planning to land such long-cast heals
when your target is down to around 25% health, can be pretty risky.
If you're planning your healing strategy on letting your crew get as
low on life as possible before you zap them with a big heal, you're
gambling their lives on fate. And fate really sucks :-) Murphy is Large
and In Charge, in WoW.
-Marshall
lis...@red-dwarf.lan
>"Shay" <shay...@aol.com> writes:
>>Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...
>>
>>"rogues (and tanks)" ?????
>>
>>Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?
>
>Thomas is talking out his ass on this. I have a feeling he's the kind of
>healer that only gets to work with pickup groups, because nobody will group
>with him as solo healer twice.
>
>>You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
>>them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
>>line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in
>
>What you're going to have is broken groups and people moving you into the
>red zone on their Karma list. Healers that let people die in 5-mans are bad
>healers - there is simply no excuse for it. It's not much different in
>raids either - anyone who gets an attitude lets people die on their watch
>won't be invited back.
people who constantly think "ooh! priest will keep me alive... i'll
out-aggro the tank!" are complete tosssers who will not only reach the
red zone on my karma list but will also be listed on my KOS addon.
as an aside... why don't these sorts of people take food into an
instance with them? oh yes... the priest will fill my HP. but what if
there's no mage to give me water? i have to use my own expensive dew
to refill your HP bar then drink another one?
i've had this a few times... big fight, out of mana. i drink my own
morning glory dew to replenish my mana but the melee classes are still
at half HP. they then whine as to why i haven't "healed" them...
simple. i don't "heal" out of combat.
>>everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
>>venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
>>yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
>>course).
>
>Indeed. This is why priests are hard to come by - the good ones get sick of
>their job, and the bad ones destroy groups. *
and some of the good ones get sick of the whiney, little turds who
steal aggro from the tank then say, "why didn't you heal me?"
sheesh.
lis...@red-dwarf.lan
wrote:
totally agree. if my tank gets that low that he needs a major heal,
i'll shield him first then cast the major heal then wonder how i let
him get that low.
this does not include the times i am inflicted with silence,stun or
various other attacks that stop me casting :)
which brings me to another point... i'm going to get write a macro
that says, "the reason i didn't heal you is because i couldn't heal
you, not because i didn't want to heal you" :)
Brian Trosko
> "Brian Trosko" <btr...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:ebib50$snm$2...@reader2.panix.com...
> > Thomas J. Boschloo <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> >> gernot almen wrote:
> >
> >> > And
> >> > don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
> >
> >> Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
> >> everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
> >> hitpoint left.
> Unless you are the slickest and most clairvoyant healer in the game,
Watch your attributions.
Marshall
Sorry Brian, my bad.
-Marshall
AlphaWoolf
<nlan...@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe I'm biased against Alliance (and NE in particular) but male NE
idle animations make them appear to be sniffing around to determine
who just farted. And the female NE "jiggle", yeesh.
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
AlphaWoolf
<nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>
>I also don't want crits. And I think a hunter, mage or rogue shouldn't
>want that either when they are in a party. I think it is insane some
>people spec for this (unless they want to PvP rather than PvE)
Hunters and rogues want crits because it's a big part of their damage
output and they can wipe aggro if need be. Warriors want crits
because it generates more aggro and rage.
AlphaWoolf
I think you need to be more flexible in your approach, and less
arrogant. Fact is, everyone has to be doing their job for parties to
work. The higher up you go the more crucial this gets. Tank dies?
It's a wipe. Healer dies, it's a wipe. DPS dies, it's a slower wipe.
Everybody (or a sufficiently large proportion of a raid) has to come
through to make the encounter a success. If you decide to not do your
job because others are making mistakes they're going to mark you as
the trouble-maker and not themselves. In fact, as the "monitor" of
the group, your suggestions should count the most towards correcting
problems. Don't just abandon people if they're screwing up, give them
a chance to improve.
ald
<frood...@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>But, there must be some
>purpose for a non-tank warrior, just as there is for shadow priests and
>feral druids. Not the most common spec, but still a valid choice of
>playstyle.
>
>--
>Wendy
A bit late replying (hey, 4 days behind is *early* for me ;-) ) but
yes, there is another purpose for a Warrior, although in instances it
is quite similar but complimentary to the main tank. First off, as
you've already discovered, when soloing or duoing you can play DPS,
you may not hit as hard as a Mage or a Rogue but you sure can take
more damage while dealing out *your* damage. The role I play in
instances is almost always the off-tank, who's main job it is to
protect the squishies, and only occasionally have to tank a mob, when
we're taking on more than one major one at once.
But in that regard, my Warrior is very lucky. One of my guildmates'
main character is a Warrior (mine was my first AH mule, and is now my
"main alt", or second-highest character), and we've always kept within
a couple levels of each other. We often team up to take on the tougher
quests, and almost always are in instances together (heh, the one time
she wasn't around, an Uldamann run, didn't go *too* badly until I was
called on to shoot-pull one of the guys in the next-to-last chamber.
See, I forgot I was in Defensive Stance, and Shoot is only hot-keyed
in Battle Stance. I kept creeping closer wondering why I wasn't in
range yet. Oh, well, as one of the other group members said after the
wipe, at least we managed to clear the room ;-) ). At 44 (she's 45
currently, couldn't *stand* the fact that I hit 44 first so she's been
working on it a bit ;-) ), I'm not sure I could have gotten away with
an all-Arms build (until 42, now starting on the Fury tree) without
her around, my main tanking skills are somewhat lacking. But that will
work even better when we hit 60 and start on the end-game 5-mans,
because then my Hunter will finally have someone to team up with ;-)
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com
Thomas J. Boschloo
I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).
It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.
It also happens we stay in a party and we stay in it for the party chat
while we each go our own ways. As a priest I notice someone dropping
(several flight-points away from me) and I can't heal them and the
warriors tell me they have to get used again not having heals land on
them anymore :-)
I consider that a job well done,
Thomas
P.S. On healing on the last possible moment, I learned the hard way when
I was new to my priest in DM and a guildy ran me through it with her
level 60 warrior. She was going so fast (and I had to stay back) that I
landed a stamina buff on her just as she was pulling. Only her quick
aggro grabbing skills kept me alive back then. And I should have know
because it happened several times to me before also (buff happy as I
tend to be)
Maybe priests shouldn't heal before the tank has several sunders on each
mob ;-)
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Unless you are the slickest and most clairvoyant healer in the game,
> with a direct mental link into the game engine which will tell you
> exactly when the unexpected will happen and some huge crit or other
> sudden damage spike is going to take out huge chunks of your heal-
> target's lifebar, this is a formula for losing a lot of players. Cast big
> heals a lot if you wish, but don't be planning them to hit when your
> friend is down to just a sliver of life left. You'll be too late by then,
> quite frequently. Heh, even planning to land such long-cast heals
> when your target is down to around 25% health, can be pretty risky.
> If you're planning your healing strategy on letting your crew get as
> low on life as possible before you zap them with a big heal, you're
> gambling their lives on fate. And fate really sucks :-) Murphy is Large
> and In Charge, in WoW.
You are correct that classes like mages need the fastest heal possible
when they go down because they tend to go down within the casting time
of your largest heal (unless you spot bad things happening to them real
early on, which is possible in a fiveman party).
But the real problem for a healer is casting a large heal, only to
notice someone else going down even faster than your current target. So
you have to interrupt that heal and start casting again (fast heal this
time). All this while your original target is still under aggro. Then
after some of this you fail to heal your more urgent target who dies,
and you lose your original target too because you had to interrupt.
Original target is usually the tank with me.
More urgent target is usually some DPS guy that thinks he is tough
episode all the time.
And since I also heal and buff pets the situation gets more complicated.
I have seen it happen on a level 60 friends screen as a dwarven priest:
Everybody dies in a real short amount of time! For everyone you heal in
a 30+ raid several other raid members buy it. And since the situation is
real hectic, flash heals probably don't heal enough anymore to keep
everybody alive. Plus that you get a *LOT* of aggro every time you fail
to heal somebody and whoever was killing them now turns on you
interrupting your spells (which druids and priests can spec against
fortunately).
Oh, and as a druid you have to be psychic and it is one of the reasons
why I love the class :-) Sometimes you start healing before the pull but
you tell the tank beforehand because all that aggro will be coming onto
you if he doesn't pull some spectacular stunt to keep it on him firmly
for some time :-) As a druid you can of course always go to bear for a
while, for a priest the ramifications of such an action are usually more
severe.
Sometimes it is fun to try something new and as a druid you can.
hi,
Thomas J. Boschloo
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:45:03 -0500, jes....@hexduxhmp.org wrote:
>
>> Catriona R <catrion...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
>>> shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
>>> probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.
>> The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
>> much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.
>
> Same :-) But by accident isn't as bad as deliberately not healing - that
> particular tactic is way too risky for my liking.
Well, it is by accident with me too, but I RP that it is deliberate :-)
Just how I play my human girl based on how I think she would be in the
real world. She has entered the emerald dream after visiting WC btw some
weeks ago. I just have lost too many friend due to level differences
over the last year and atm I cannot deal with that anymore.
> I think I heard somewhere that shield causes less aggro than a heal; I
> don't know if that's accurate but when I get aggro I normally fade, if that
> doesn't work, shield myself and add a renew if I've taken more than a
> little bit of damage, only give myself a proper heal if it's really needed.
Ok. I have speced Spirit of Redemption recently and I was fortunate to
use it once. The situation was this:
Excellent tank (my friend)
Shadow priest trying to top the damage meters and brag about it later on
in the instance (should have kicked him, but letting him die proved more
fun).
I died (with half my mana :-/ )
Both shadowpriest and warrior can be saved (these were my main healing
targets during the instance)
Druid (in bear) got feared and pulled Thredd + adds just before (Shadow
priest cursing him several times because of this)
Hunter is skilled and has no aggro, he has he pet out off-tanking as I
asked him to before entering stockades
Lets assume that all have half health. Shadow priest going down faster
than Warrior of course.
We cleared one and a half of the three rooms before prox pulling Thredd
in the last room.
Who would you heal with your spirit of redemption? (I think I healed the
shadow priest on intuition, figuring the warrior would survive long
enough for it not to matter anymore (hehe, twinked just like me by the
guild))
gernot almen
>>> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.
>>
>> Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a
>> board
>> when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.
>>
>>> I am still learning after all
>>
>> I realy, REALY hope so.
>
> Sounds like someone didn't get his heals today.
Oh, our raid's druides are fine in keeping their priests alive, thank you.
Dan
>Who would you heal with your spirit of redemption? (I think I healed the
>shadow priest on intuition, figuring the warrior would survive long
>enough for it not to matter anymore (hehe, twinked just like me by the
>guild))
In such a situation, given that mana efficiency doesn't matter
during spirit of redemption (all spells have zero mana cost), I'd be
spamming Prayer of Healing and so healing everyone still alive at
the same time. Holy Nova is another possibility, though I'm not sure
if that one can be case as a Spirit since it does damage.
Dan
Dan
>I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
>forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
>rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
>turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
>the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).
This is just weird thinking. If you chug a mana potion, you have
mana for more than one heal. You can chug a mana potion, heal or
shield yourself, and still have mana for a couple more heals on
others. Drinking a health potion when you are out of mana is utterly
pointless. What are you going to do, bonk them with your staff?
Drinking a health potion when you aren't out of mana is daft. You
can heal yourself instead and not blow your potion timer.
A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.
>It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.
The biggest thrill I have had as a priest is pulling a group
successfully through a near-certain wipe situation, and the kudos
you get from the other players afterward is just a bonus. Nothing
makes me smile more than a group member commenting "Awesome
healing!"
If a group wipes, I as main healer have failed in my primary role -
to keep the group alive. It may not be *my* fault that the group
wiped, people may not blame me, but it still to me feels like a
failure. A wipe is bad for the group in many ways - it costs
everyone time (especially if a corpse run is involved) and gold
(repairs/reagents), it's bad for morale and it can mean the instance
run gets abandoned, incomplete (e.g. respawns near the start mean
you'd have to more or less start over.) Wipes are to be avoided at
almost any cost.
I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.
Dan
Thomas J. Boschloo
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nos...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>
>> I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
>> forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
>> rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
>> turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
>> the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).
>
> This is just weird thinking. If you chug a mana potion, you have
> mana for more than one heal. You can chug a mana potion, heal or
> shield yourself, and still have mana for a couple more heals on
> others. Drinking a health potion when you are out of mana is utterly
> pointless. What are you going to do, bonk them with your staff?
> Drinking a health potion when you aren't out of mana is daft. You
> can heal yourself instead and not blow your potion timer.
>
> A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
> potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
> from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
> potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
> take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.
I feel better if I achieve the same thing without any potions at all!
Like I said, I rarely use mana potions because I rarely run out of mana.
I have up to five mana potions ready when I do (low level instances),
but when I need a potion it is usually to stay alive while the tank (or
some other player, maybe the one that gave me all the aggro) grabs the
aggro off me.
I rarely run out of mana because I think about each heal I do and the
heals that would result from me doing that heal.
When I run out of mana I can always wand and sometimes I sit down (don't
know if that helps).
You say I need to drink mana instead of health. Well, when I need health
the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
when you are death?
My first serious toon was an alchemist, so I could try out all potions
for free, but ended up using (and making) only health and some mana.
>> It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.
>
> The biggest thrill I have had as a priest is pulling a group
> successfully through a near-certain wipe situation, and the kudos
> you get from the other players afterward is just a bonus. Nothing
> makes me smile more than a group member commenting "Awesome
> healing!"
I think I leave my groups a bit shaken most of the time when this
happens. And most of the time I won't keep everybody alive. I never had
the comment 'awesome healing'. I did end up on friendslists of other
players that I consider very skilled.
> If a group wipes, I as main healer have failed in my primary role -
> to keep the group alive. It may not be *my* fault that the group
> wiped, people may not blame me, but it still to me feels like a
> failure. A wipe is bad for the group in many ways - it costs
> everyone time (especially if a corpse run is involved) and gold
> (repairs/reagents), it's bad for morale and it can mean the instance
> run gets abandoned, incomplete (e.g. respawns near the start mean
> you'd have to more or less start over.) Wipes are to be avoided at
> almost any cost.
>
> I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
> mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.
I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
reassessment.
Rene
It's been in the manual since start but it just isn't doing anything. It
might have been so in the beta, but ever since release, sitting down
does _not_ increase mana and/or health regeneration. Just forget about it.
> You say I need to drink mana instead of health. Well, when I need health
> the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
> I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
> when you are death?
Nothing. But as a priest, having full health and 0 mana is just as
pointless.
> My first serious toon was an alchemist, so I could try out all potions
> for free, but ended up using (and making) only health and some mana.
alchemy can be a good money-maker later on, but mostly only if you also
take herbalist and get your ingredients yourself. Otherwise you might be
able to break even when you buy all in the AH.
> I think I leave my groups a bit shaken most of the time when this
> happens. And most of the time I won't keep everybody alive. I never had
> the comment 'awesome healing'. I did end up on friendslists of other
> players that I consider very skilled.
You get seldom gratulated for the healing, so you will remember when it
happens, as well as the situation where you got it. Patience, you'll one
day see it :-)
[..]
>> I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
>> mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.
>
> I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
> and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
> reassessment.
There's always "the plan". And then there is the person who just knows
the right thing to do when the plan isn't any longer feasible and turns
the "inevitable wipe everyone saw coming and was already writing the
last will" into a no-one died, good job all thingie that lets you sleep
that much better this night.
Plans are good. Acting correctly against a plan is sometimes far better.
CU
René
Thomas J. Boschloo
> Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
>> I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
>> and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
>> reassessment.
>
> There's always "the plan". And then there is the person who just knows
> the right thing to do when the plan isn't any longer feasible and turns
> the "inevitable wipe everyone saw coming and was already writing the
> last will" into a no-one died, good job all thingie that lets you sleep
> that much better this night.
>
> Plans are good. Acting correctly against a plan is sometimes far better.
I like to improvise and experiment. But when I want to do something
drastic that might go wrong I ask for permission first. What I hate is
when I am told how to play my class and I respond to that my totally and
utter obedience to whomever has the biggest mouth in the pickup group.
One case that I remember clearly was with my druid when a paladin kept
saying I didn't heal enough so after a while I went to bear telling him
to do all the healing and me to do the tanking (we had no warrior).
When I tanked the hunter made a bad pull and we got two patrols on our
back instead of one which I held almost complete aggro over in the few
seconds I lasted (challenging roar). The pally didn't land a single heal
on me and was offtanking or something as far as I could see.
I went down in seconds, the rest of the party wiped in about two times
that time and I felt absolutely good about doing the job 'I was told to'
and proving the pally with heal healing per second obsession an
incompetent healer.
We also had a mage (my RL friend) and a hunter and some other
non-healing class, probably a rogue.
Brian Trosko
> Hunters and rogues want crits because it's a big part of their damage
> output and they can wipe aggro if need be. Warriors want crits
> because it generates more aggro and rage.
A crit generates no bonus threat. One point of damage = one point of
threat[*], so the additional damage does generate additional threat, but
there's no bonus because it's a crit.
[*] - Yeah, yeah, generally.
Dan
>> A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
>> potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
>> from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
>> potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
>> take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.
>
>I feel better if I achieve the same thing without any potions at all!
If you can do it without needing an emergency potion, then it wasn't
an emergency. The point of having emergency mana potions is to save
the situations that you can't otherwise save. :)
>You say I need to drink mana instead of health.
For a priest, mana yields health. (Conversely for a warlock, health
yields mana.) A mana potion will give you enough mana to generate
4-5x more health than a health potion will give you.
>Well, when I need health
>the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
>I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
>when you are death?
If you have mana, you can prevent yourself dying. A priest with mana
will not die unless they are taking damage faster than they can heal
themselves and if your health is going down /that/ fast, a health
potion isn't going to buy you much. When the situation is hectic and
things are beating on you, if you have mana you have other options:
Fade - instant cast, chances are will it shed at least one of the
mobs hitting on you and even if not, will make it easier for others
to take aggro off you.
Power Word: Shield - instant cast, buys you more seconds in exactly
the same way as a health potion would.
Renew - instant cast, buys you more time by countering some (most,
for a single mob) of the damage you are taking without increasing
your aggro like a big heal does.
Psychic Scream - instant cast. It's use in instances is obviously
situational - you can't use it in area where feared mobs will aggro
other mobs, but in a relatively cleared area it can save your butt
in an emergency - not only does it give you a break from being hit,
but all the party around you as well. Everyone gets a few seconds
breathing space for cooldowns to tick, energy to regen, bandaging or
whatever.
Prayer of Healing - the priest's trump card as far as group healing
goes. Heal yourself *and* the tank *and* the dpsers all at the same
time. You only need 3 party members to be taking damage for Prayer
of Healing to be more mana efficient than single-target heals, and
even if only 2 are taking damage, the ability to heal yourself
without stopping healing the tank can be more important than the
mana cost. A combination of shield followed by a prayer of healing
or two can do a lot toward turning the tide of the encounter and
preventing an impending wipe.
If there's a warlock in your group, you have another option - make
them give you a healthstone. Same effect as a health potion, without
blowing your potion timer. 900 mana from a mana potion will buy you
(and your party) a lot more health than 900 health from a heal
potion.
Dan
Thomas J. Boschloo
[snip]
> Fade - instant cast, chances are will it shed at least one of the
> mobs hitting on you and even if not, will make it easier for others
> to take aggro off you.
>
> Power Word: Shield - instant cast, buys you more seconds in exactly
> the same way as a health potion would.
>
> Renew - instant cast, buys you more time by countering some (most,
> for a single mob) of the damage you are taking without increasing
> your aggro like a big heal does.
>
> Psychic Scream - instant cast. It's use in instances is obviously
> situational - you can't use it in area where feared mobs will aggro
> other mobs, but in a relatively cleared area it can save your butt
> in an emergency - not only does it give you a break from being hit,
> but all the party around you as well. Everyone gets a few seconds
> breathing space for cooldowns to tick, energy to regen, bandaging or
> whatever.
I would like to add Desperate Prayer. I try to use it a lot :-)
I am not sure what I think about prayer of healing. I don't think I ever
used it or found it useful. (maybe because I let the rogues die if they
grab too greedily in the aggro bin over a longer period of time).
Basically as a low level priest I strive for parties where only the tank
and maybe some off tank (leather or better) has aggro.
As a druid I loved to cast tranquility on near death. It doesn't just
work but it also looks real cool!
Krust
Gosh!
L2P
(jk <3)
AlphaWoolf
wrote:
I'm going the DPS route with my warrior as well. I decided this just
before Blizzard lowered the player caps on the high-end dungeons.
Back when you could 10-man Strath and Scholo a DPS warrior wasn't that
uncommon a sight. Now with that opportunity gone my only chance to
DPS is solo or in 20+ raids, and then only if we've got got some
proper tanks. While I feel my spec is fairly useless simply because I
so seldom get to put it to good use, I'm sticking with it. I recently
respec'd completely out of Protection (11/40/0) and I can still tank
UBRS and below just fine if I have to, and when I get to bare my teeth
(so to speak) it's lots of fun. I'd only spec Protection if I were a
designated MT for a guild, and that's never gonna happen. Even then,
my guild's MTs are primarily Arms or Fury spec'd, I believe, and I'm
talking about tanks that farm BWL and have started into AQ40.