I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter - this is what fathers have to look forward to
Moderator
completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her parents are
lying to her. Its so disheartening. I’ve been honest with her and
fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken everything I
have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
I eventually broke down and started giving her some shit in an attempt
to clarify things. She has no idea the amount of lies she’s been told.
I can’t wait until January when the next hearing will take place. Her
mother has already fallen flat on her face at the last hearing and I’m
going to bury her at the next one.
Here’s a sample of what my daughter trased me with tonight:
“…I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?…”
THE BORG
"Moderator" <meld...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She�s
completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her
parents are
fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken
everything I
have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
I eventually broke down and started giving her some shit in
an attempt
to clarify things. She has no idea the amount of lies she�s
been told.
I can�t wait until January when the next hearing will take
place. Her
mother has already fallen flat on her face at the last
hearing and I�m
going to bury her at the next one.
Here�s a sample of what my daughter trased me with tonight:
��I know that you never did anything when I was born.
Didn't work?
Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?��
***
Thank you for posting this to alt.philosophy.
I am sure your personal problems will result in huge and
Universal implications which many subscribers of this group
will enjoy discussing.
Did your personal relationship with your daughter effect
first cause? Or maybe the very reason for existence itself?
It is nice to know that people know how suitable their
personal problems are on groups such as alt.philosophy,
where they shed new light on the many great names of the
past, giving new insight into life, death, existence, time,
matter and a whole range of other deep and meaningful
concepts and ideas.
THE BORG
True Blue
"Moderator" <meld...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
completely poisoned against me.
<snip>
Hmmm... seems to me that you've been too lenient by far. What she needs is a
firm hand. Tie her to something heavy and take your belt off. Give her two
dozen, all the while reciting verse from the Old Testament. Short term she
may resent this, or even inform the police, but in the long run she'll
*respect you*.
Moderator
I concede the error. Why didn't you snip the group from your repsonse?
(That's relevant to alt.philosphy).
Moderator
> "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She’s been
> completely poisoned against me.
>
> <snip>
>
> Hmmm... seems to me that you've been too lenient by far. What she needs is a
> firm hand. Tie her to something heavy and take your belt off. Give her two
> dozen, all the while reciting verse from the Old Testament. Short term she
> may resent this, or even inform the police, but in the long run she'll
> *respect you*.
Why would you hold your child responsible under the circumstances??
Its not her fault her views have been twisted. Corporal punishment is
unwarranted in ths situation. The mother however, should indeed be
tied to something heavy and lashed until she bleeds. Then she should
be thrown in jail just like the other mothers who pull the same
trickery to deprive their kids of their fathers.
FREAK!
Saracene
>
> Here’s a sample of what my daughter trased me with tonight:
>
> “…I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?…”
Were you really such a layabout? Were you smoking a lot of dope at the
time?
Moderator
Of course not on both counts. I was on contract up until the child was
about 2. When the contract was finished, I was looking for work and
looking after the kid and taking her to the park every day. Then mommy
dearest threw her into daycare because she didn't want me to be able
to argue I was primary caregiver. She had us in court within a few
months. She had it planned from the start. I was a unwitting victim.
She used the law as a weapon and lied to use it as effectively as
possible. But its all starting to come out now. Last hearing the judge
spent most of his time questioning her and setting her to task on all
her bogus claims. He saw right through her. Her mistake is thinking
things are still the same a twelve years ago. Things have changed
legally and politically. The judges know better these days especially
when a father is making a case for a refraining order. LOL
bigfl...@gmail.com
For heavens sake, you have lasted this long. Maintain your truth, or
be dragged into a shitfight, where your daughter will find it almost
impossible to recognise whats been happening.
I can absolutely promise you that to maintain you balance will give
her a clear example of what is what. The harsh fact is,even doing
that, she may not recognise your situation.At least this way you can
demonstrate to her by your actions, because words in such situations
do not have much value.
BOfL
chazwin
What does $75,000 mean to you? Most people would never have access to
that sort of cash. Maybe it is a piss in the ocean, maybe it
represents half your equity.
One thing is for sure if your aim is to bury your ex then you might
has well shoot yourlsef in the head. If you aim to do that then your
daughter will always think you are an arse-hole. What are you hoping
to achieve in the next hearing?
Have you thought that it might be time to move on?
bigfl...@gmail.com
> THE BORG wrote:
> > "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> > I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She s
> > been
> > completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her
> > parents are
> > her and
> > fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken
> > everything I
> > have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
>
> > I eventually broke down and started giving her some shit in
> > an attempt
> > been told.
>
> > place. Her
> > mother has already fallen flat on her face at the last
> > going to bury her at the next one.
>
>
> > I know that you never did anything when I was born.
> > Didn't work?
> > Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?
>
> > Thank you for posting this to alt.philosophy.
> > I am sure your personal problems will result in huge and
> > Universal implications which many subscribers of this group
> > will enjoy discussing.
> > Did your personal relationship with your daughter effect
> > first cause? Or maybe the very reason for existence itself?
> > It is nice to know that people know how suitable their
> > personal problems are on groups such as alt.philosophy,
> > where they shed new light on the many great names of the
> > past, giving new insight into life, death, existence, time,
> > matter and a whole range of other deep and meaningful
> > concepts and ideas.
> > THE BORG
>
> I concede the error. Why didn't you snip the group from your repsonse?
>
> - Show quoted text -
There was no error. This is 'life in the raw' and brings 'some'
philosophers into the real world of application.
We are people first, and there is little more fundemental than how we
relate to our offspring, particularly in this period of rapid change.
My parents learned how to live through war and depression, I needed to
loive through the changing roles of the sexes, 'unlearn' from my
parents, and my children are wrestling with vast amounts of
information.
Prior to recent generations, nothig much changed for hundreds of
years.
Progress means old patterns of living loosing value, and, painful as
some of the lessons are, the wisdom that results is worth every tear.
BOfL
Nick 'my dad (correction) didnt fly spitfires' Griffin
you could get a hitman (or woman) for less than 75K
bigfl...@gmail.com
So you wish to perpetuate the battle?
Remember how you reacted if and when somebody 'rubished' your own
mother?
Get above it, or be swallowed up, which will only empower your ex. and
alienate your daughter.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Dont forget, you wife has the memory of her background as well.
These events never 'start' where most think they do.
Problems unresolved, are problems revisited, which is why, until you
fix yourself, you will not be providing a different example for your
daughter, guaranteing her next stage of interaction with the mn or men
in her future.
If all she sees is what she believes you are, what else would you
expect?She will be attracted to what her experience tells her is the
behaviour of a male.
BOfL
True Blue
Perhaps the mother should be compelled to wear a scold's bridle and coarse
hessian undergarments. Modern undergarments are an invention of Satan, and
give rise to carnal thoughts that befit only the beasts of the field.
Moderator
I appreciate your well-meaning advice but you seem confused about some
things.
I’ve remained silent regarding the truth. I am on the side of truth.
The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
do). Our court order is based on lies. That’s why it took me so much
money over the years to remain in my child’s life. The first five
years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
to the court order.
I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
vindicated. The judge saw through the bullshit. I’m anxiously awaiting
the next hearing. Remember, I’m only there to modify a child support
order.
My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
said she wasn’t angry with me. Two days later I got an email trashing
me for making service. I couldn’t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
I wasn’t going to force visitation on her.
I’ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
whatsoever. Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
regurgitated crap from her mother. (The mother is able to do this in a
manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
year old kid).
The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
My dilemma is complex. I can’t defend myself without setting the
record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
trashed. I’ve held off for as long as possible. She is the only mother
my kid has. I don’t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
As it stands, it’s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
defend myself, the kid resents it. It’s a near impossible situation.
She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
I’m prepared to loose the kid. I have to save myself and my family. My
reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can’t let
it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
Claire
"Chairs??? We sit on spikes!!"
Moderator
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've moved on and now I can fight for truth and hope for justice. I
wish more fathers would do the same. The lawyers more often than not
make things worse and don't fight for fathers. Its a simple matter of
carefully reading the law and relying on truth. Truth defeat lies. You
can't defend a lie with truth. A lie can only be defended with more
lies. Truth is gold. When I understood that, and knew I was on the
side of truth, I started to fight back and its working. Too bad about
the kid but I might be able to salvage that relationship sooner or
later. If not, so be it.
True Blue
>> Perhaps the mother should be compelled to wear a scold's bridle and
>> coarse
>> hessian undergarments. Modern undergarments are an invention of Satan,
>> and
>> give rise to carnal thoughts that befit only the beasts of the field.
>"Chairs??? We sit on spikes!!"
You were lucky....
bigfl...@gmail.com
I do understand, more than you may believe. Her behaviour was , in a
sense, predictable. When one parent 'rubishes' the other parent, they
force a loyalty question (like thge kids version of Sophies Choice),
and more often than not, the mother daughter connection prevails. The
legal process is one thing. Im talking bayond that.
>
> I’ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
> resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
> whatsoever.
Nor should she be expected to. Do you see where Im coming from. Right
or wrong, she is being asked to chose. You clarifying things to her,
just increases her dillemma.
> Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
> regurgitated crap from her mother.
Of course! That was really no surprise was it?
> (The mother is able to do this in a
> manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
> year old kid).
Where she is standing, she sees conflict. Bear also in mind, she is
not alone in this situation. Far from it, which is why I was making a
comparision with generational changes over the last century.
>
> The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
> was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
So you can prove the (currently) most important influential person in
her life has been falsifying. If you cannot grasp the gravity of this,
you soon will.
>
> My dilemma is complex. I can’t defend myself without setting the
> record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
> trashed. I’ve held off for as long as possible. She is the only mother
> my kid has.
Precisely.If your concern is for your daughter, which it obviously is,
then live with your truth, and let things take their
course.Metaphorcally, the knife is in your daughter, so is doent
matter to her, who twists it.
>I don’t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
Winning in court is exactly what that will do.
> As it stands, it’s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
> defend myself, the kid resents it. It’s a near impossible situation.
Ive grown from similar circumstances more than I could have imagined.
I also know how I would have responded to suh comments 'back when':-)
>
> She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
> says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
> distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
THis is why you simply have to 'pull back'. Show her who you are, and
she will gravitae to where she needs to.
In my case, one daughtr still sided with her mother (they are
extremely similar in nature), and the other one has developed a
wonderful relationship with me. Ages twenty and twenty two. I was
'ejected' on my second daughters first birthday.
>
> I’m prepared to loose the kid.
If you listen to anything, listen to this. It is 'not' your choice.
You know the truth, trust her to become more discerning as she grows.
>I have to save myself and my family. My
> reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can’t let
> it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
Think of that 'twisting knife' image.
BOfL
Moderator
I think I understand. I have no problem letting it be but I hope
you're not implying that I shouldn't defend myself in court in order
to protect my daughter's feelings. That is just going to happen.
Moderator
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've never been so deeply hurt. At first I was logical but then it
sunk in. It hit me at an emotional level and as any therapist will
attest, the emotional center tends to override the logical one. After
some reflection I've decided to ask her if she would be willing to go
to councelling with me but probably not as joint sessions. Regardless
of her response, I will have to go in order to get through this.
My heart goes out to those fathers who arrive to pick their kids up
one weekend and are told by the kids that they don't want to visit. It
must be devastating.
Andrew Usher
> I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She’s been
> completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her parents are
> lying to her. Its so disheartening. I’ve been honest with her and
> fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken everything I
> have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
Remember that your daughter is female and women are always influenced
by other women, even if it's totally irrational. Sorry.
Andrew Usher
Claire
Catharine Wheals? <owch>
Moderator
What do you mean?! Are you saying this in the context of councelling?
Are you saying this in the context of her being allienated? What is it
you're trying to say?
bigfl...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
In her eyes, defending yourself means attacking her mother. It will
only make things worse, but if thats what you need to go through....we
learn mostly by experience, but occasionally by making sense of others
similar situations.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Thats until we each learn better. Some therapist I know are really
there to learn, more than teach.
>After
> some reflection I've decided to ask her if she would be willing to go
> to councelling with me but probably not as joint sessions. Regardless
> of her response, I will have to go in order to get through this.
The tell her you are going, and leave her to respond as she sees fit.
The less the pressure, the more she will respect you, even if it takes
some time.
Top therapists will tell you that whatever we 'each' go through will
repeat until it is resolved, and we each only have the power for self
resolution.You will then inspire her.
>
> My heart goes out to those fathers who arrive to pick their kids up
> one weekend and are told by the kids that they don't want to visit. It
> must be devastating.
I know for absolutely certain, that the greater the trauma,the more
there is to learn.It didnt stop the pain, but the difference in
recognising this underlying reality makes a huge difference.
BOfL
Chom Noamsky
> I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She�s been
> completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her parents are
> lying to her. Its so disheartening. I�ve been honest with her and
> fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken everything I
> have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
>
> to clarify things. She has no idea the amount of lies she�s been told.
>
> I can�t wait until January when the next hearing will take place. Her
> mother has already fallen flat on her face at the last hearing and I�m
> going to bury her at the next one.
>
My TV broke about a year into the Reality TV kick and I never bothered to
fix it. I took it to e-waste recycling, paid the $5 dollars to dispose of
it, and haven't watched TV since.
Now we have idiots like Meldon bringing "Reality TV" to Usenet. He wants to
be one of those 800lb man boys crying about their gross obesity because they
couldn't stop eating, and blaming the world for it.
Chom Noamsky
BTW, you've spent 10 years getting trashed online, so obviously it's
something you really enjoy.
Maria
> On 31 Oct, 11:07, "True Blue" <t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:5cf96470-4733-4365...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>> On Oct 31, 5:00 am, "True Blue" <garybagg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>>> completely poisoned against me.
>>> <snip>
>>>> Hmmm... seems to me that you've been too lenient by far. What she needs
>>>> is a
>>>> firm hand. Tie her to something heavy and take your belt off. Give her
>>>> two
>>>> dozen, all the while reciting verse from the Old Testament. Short term
>>>> she
>>>> may resent this, or even inform the police, but in the long run she'll
>>>> *respect you*.
>>> Why would you hold your child responsible under the circumstances??
>>> Its not her fault her views have been twisted. Corporal punishment is
>>> unwarranted in ths situation. The mother however, should indeed be
>>> tied to something heavy and lashed until she bleeds. Then she should
>>> be thrown in jail just like the other mothers who pull the same
>>> trickery to deprive their kids of their fathers.
>> Perhaps the mother should be compelled to wear a scold's bridle and coarse
>> hessian undergarments. Modern undergarments are an invention of Satan, and
>> give rise to carnal thoughts that befit only the beasts of the field.
>
> "Chairs??? We sit on spikes!!"
Lend us your turnip please.
Andrew Usher
> What do you mean?! Are you saying this in the context of councelling?
> Are you saying this in the context of her being allienated? What is it
> you're trying to say?
I can't read for you, my post was pretty clear.
Andrew Usher
Maria
>
> bigfl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 6:15 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Saracene wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ��I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
>>>>> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?��
> The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
> money over the years to remain in my child�s life. The first five
> years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
> to the court order.
>
> I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
> I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
> truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
> do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
> modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
> 5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
> the next hearing. Remember, I�m only there to modify a child support
> order.
>
> My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
> me for making service. I couldn�t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
> I wasn�t going to force visitation on her.
>
> I�ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
> resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
> whatsoever. Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
> regurgitated crap from her mother. (The mother is able to do this in a
> manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
> year old kid).
>
> The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
> was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
>
> record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
> my kid has. I don�t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
> As it stands, it�s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
> defend myself, the kid resents it. It�s a near impossible situation.
>
> She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
> says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
> distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
>
> reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can�t let
> it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
Why? Why do you *have* to defend yourself?
Seriously? Is your character assassination more important to you? Please
think - stand back. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees.
The girl needs a parent she can trust - if it's not her mum and it's not
you, then what/who?
I'm no expert, or lawyer, or child psy, but I think I have learned one
thing, from having 6 children of my own, coming from a family of 15
children, and having gone through various family conflicts over the
decades - *the child most trusts the person who is calm (not cold),
rocksteady (not benign), reliable (not boring), who takes it on the chin*.
What the child seeks most is stability - you can give her that but you
*have* to stand back, take a look at what you and your ex are doing
objectively, and calm down. If the ex doesn't calm down, all the better
for you.
I fear for you that if you keep on like this, you *will* lose the child,
and suddenly your pride will not seem to matter so much...the child may
lose herself, and her life will be ruined.
Maria
> On Oct 31, 8:36 am, "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 7:29 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> bigflet...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Oct 31, 6:15 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Saracene wrote:
>>>>>>> ��I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
>>>>>>> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?��
>>> The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
>>> money over the years to remain in my child�s life. The first five
>>> years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
>>> to the court order.
>>> I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
>>> I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
>>> truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
>>> do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
>>> modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
>>> 5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
>>> the next hearing. Remember, I�m only there to modify a child support
>>> order.
>>> My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
>>> me for making service. I couldn�t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
>>> I wasn�t going to force visitation on her.
>> I do understand, more than you may believe. Her behaviour was , in a
>> sense, predictable. When one parent 'rubishes' the other parent, they
>> force a loyalty question (like thge kids version of Sophies Choice),
>> and more often than not, the mother daughter connection prevails. The
>> legal process is one thing. Im talking bayond that.
>>
>>
>>
>>> resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
>>> whatsoever.
>> Nor should she be expected to. Do you see where Im coming from. Right
>> or wrong, she is being asked to chose. You clarifying things to her,
>> just increases her dillemma.
>>
>>> Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
>>> regurgitated crap from her mother.
>> Of course! That was really no surprise was it?
>>
>>> (The mother is able to do this in a
>>> manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
>>> year old kid).
>> Where she is standing, she sees conflict. Bear also in mind, she is
>> not alone in this situation. Far from it, which is why I was making a
>> comparision with generational changes over the last century.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
>>> was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
>> So you can prove the (currently) most important influential person in
>> her life has been falsifying. If you cannot grasp the gravity of this,
>> you soon will.
>>
>>
>>
>>> record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
>>> my kid has.
>> Precisely.If your concern is for your daughter, which it obviously is,
>> then live with your truth, and let things take their
>> course.Metaphorcally, the knife is in your daughter, so is doent
>> matter to her, who twists it.
>>
>> Winning in court is exactly what that will do.
>>
>>> defend myself, the kid resents it. It�s a near impossible situation.
>> Ive grown from similar circumstances more than I could have imagined.
>> I also know how I would have responded to suh comments 'back when':-)
>>
>>
>>
>>> She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
>>> says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
>>> distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
>> THis is why you simply have to 'pull back'. Show her who you are, and
>> she will gravitae to where she needs to.
>>
>> In my case, one daughtr still sided with her mother (they are
>> extremely similar in nature), and the other one has developed a
>> wonderful relationship with me. Ages twenty and twenty two. I was
>> 'ejected' on my second daughters first birthday.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you listen to anything, listen to this. It is 'not' your choice.
>> You know the truth, trust her to become more discerning as she grows.
>>
>>> I have to save myself and my family. My
>>> it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
>> Think of that 'twisting knife' image.
>>
>> BOfL- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I've never been so deeply hurt. At first I was logical but then it
> sunk in. It hit me at an emotional level and as any therapist will
> attest, the emotional center tends to override the logical one. After
> some reflection I've decided to ask her if she would be willing to go
> to councelling with me but probably not as joint sessions. Regardless
> of her response, I will have to go in order to get through this.
Stop nursing the hurt - it will pass - nurse it and indulge it and feed
it and it will dominate you. Would you want a perpetual heart attack?
Don't let the hurt get in the way of being a father. Don't end up being
addicted to victimhood - it's so easy...accept that the mother is in the
wrong but there is nothing you can do about it right now. Be yourself
for your girl. If you don't calm this storm, who will? In fact, and in
your mind, you are the child's father - that is never ever going to
change. Use that as an anchor with which to hold steady.
BTW be careful with counselling - it cannot help you to accept what is
happening IMV - sometimes it can make it worse, dragging those terrible
feelings up over and over again instead of letting you come to terms
with them so that they may pass over.
Remember - nothing is written in stone - tomorrow is another day etc
etc. Everything can change, and everything does change. The only people
I know for whom things have never changed is those who would never let
go enough to allow them to change.
NB - please don't take this as some kind of presumptuous instruction - I
really wish I could help, that's all.
>
> My heart goes out to those fathers who arrive to pick their kids up
> one weekend and are told by the kids that they don't want to visit. It
> must be devastating.
It is - but you have to accept it (for the time being) and get over it,
or it destroys you.
Ted
> Moderator wrote:
>
> > bigflet...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Oct 31, 6:15 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Saracene wrote:
>
> >>>>> “…I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
> >>>>> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?…”
> > The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
> > money over the years to remain in my child’s life. The first five
> > years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
> > to the court order.
>
> > I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
> > I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
> > truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
> > do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
> > modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
> > 5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
> > the next hearing. Remember, I’m only there to modify a child support
> > order.
>
> > My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
> > me for making service. I couldn’t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
> > I wasn’t going to force visitation on her.
>
> > I’ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
> > resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
> > whatsoever. Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
> > regurgitated crap from her mother. (The mother is able to do this in a
> > manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
> > year old kid).
>
> > The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
> > was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
>
> > record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
> > my kid has. I don’t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
> > As it stands, it’s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
> > defend myself, the kid resents it. It’s a near impossible situation.
>
> > She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
> > says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
> > distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
>
> > reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can’t let
> > it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
>
> Why? Why do you *have* to defend yourself?
He has to defend himself
> Seriously? Is your character assassination more important to you?
A "character assassination" is a set of untruths. Are you - or is
anyone - better off believing in a set of untruths, or are you better
off in knowing the truth?
> Please
> think - stand back. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees.
Do you believe it is better to know an uncomfortable truth, or a
reassuring untruth? Which sets you up better for subsequent life?
> The girl needs a parent she can trust
The girl needs someone trustworthy she can trust.
>- if it's not her mum and it's not
> you, then what/who?
You have to do what you can to be trustworthy. You may be acted
against by outside forces trying yo stop you from doing that. They
must be opposed.
> I'm no expert, or lawyer, or child psy, but I think I have learned one
> thing, from having 6 children of my own, coming from a family of 15
> children, and having gone through various family conflicts over the
> decades - *the child most trusts the person who is calm (not cold),
> rocksteady (not benign), reliable (not boring), who takes it on the chin*.
> What the child seeks most is stability - you can give her that but you
> *have* to stand back, take a look at what you and your ex are doing
> objectively, and calm down. If the ex doesn't calm down, all the better
> for you.
> I fear for you that if you keep on like this, you *will* lose the child,
> and suddenly your pride will not seem to matter so much...the child may
> lose herself, and her life will be ruined.
He should not involve the child in lies - lies of the mother, or lies
of his own. The child needs the truth. He should not acquiesce in a
lying situation.
Maria
> On Nov 1, 9:29 am, Maria <oldwo...@theshoe.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Moderator wrote:
>>
>>> bigflet...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Oct 31, 6:15 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Saracene wrote:
>>>>>>> ��I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
>>>>>>> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?��
>>> The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
>>> money over the years to remain in my child�s life. The first five
>>> years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
>>> to the court order.
>>> I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
>>> I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
>>> truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
>>> do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
>>> modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
>>> 5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
>>> the next hearing. Remember, I�m only there to modify a child support
>>> order.
>>> My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
>>> me for making service. I couldn�t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
>>> I wasn�t going to force visitation on her.
>>> I�ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
>>> resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
>>> whatsoever. Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
>>> regurgitated crap from her mother. (The mother is able to do this in a
>>> manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
>>> year old kid).
>>> The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
>>> was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
>>> record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
>>> my kid has. I don�t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
>>> As it stands, it�s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
>>> defend myself, the kid resents it. It�s a near impossible situation.
>>> She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
>>> says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
>>> distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
>>> reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can�t let
>>> it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
>> Why? Why do you *have* to defend yourself?
>
> He has to defend himself
He doesn't - not that I think he is wrong to try to defend himself -
everyone has that right, but it is evidently adding fuel to the fire.
So, he can choose to defend himself, and add fuel to the fire, which may
ensure that he loses his daughter for good (I don't know which country
he lives in but in the UK, absent parents have been completely banned
from seeing their children by the courts for the very reason that the
continuing conflict is harming the child...)
It *is* harming her - to be the parent to back down when you know you
are in the right is extremely difficult, but perhaps the only thing that
will save her head.
>
>> Seriously? Is your character assassination more important to you?
>
> A "character assassination" is a set of untruths. Are you - or is
> anyone - better off believing in a set of untruths, or are you better
> off in knowing the truth?
The child does not know what or who to believe at the moment. The child
is better off knowing the truth, of course, but even if she heard the
truth right now, how would she know it was the truth? In my experience,
it has taken an outsider who is a witness to convince the child that one
or the other parent is being truthful. The child is a child, and does
not have the judgemental or reasoning capacity of an adult...
Moderator can state his case over and over again, but unless someone is
*prepared* to believe him, it is worthless at the moment. Sometimes it
is better to state your case and walk away to allow a period of digestion...
>
>> Please
>> think - stand back. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees.
>
> Do you believe it is better to know an uncomfortable truth, or a
> reassuring untruth? Which sets you up better for subsequent life?
How is she going to know *any* truth at the moment, when she trusts
neither of the people who are claiming to be telling the truth?
>
>> The girl needs a parent she can trust
>
> The girl needs someone trustworthy she can trust.
She cannot know if they are trustworthy or not - she does not have that
capacity as a child. She can have ideas about who she trusts and why,
but sometimes it is simple peace and calm in a person that brings about
trust because it is a relief from the anguish of fighting parents.
>
>> - if it's not her mum and it's not
>> you, then what/who?
>
> You have to do what you can to be trustworthy. You may be acted
> against by outside forces trying yo stop you from doing that. They
> must be opposed.
Proving trustworthiness is hard, even to another adult. I believe that
sometimes adults become so engaged in their bitter fight that they can
believe that the child must be able to see it from the same perspective,
when most of the time they cannot. When I have talked to children who
have been in the environment of fighting parents, and asked what they
want, it is only for the fighting to stop. A lot of the time they don't
even understand what the fighting is about, and justice and fairness
doesn't mean anything to them. How old is the child in this situation?
>> I'm no expert, or lawyer, or child psy, but I think I have learned one
>> thing, from having 6 children of my own, coming from a family of 15
>> children, and having gone through various family conflicts over the
>> decades - *the child most trusts the person who is calm (not cold),
>> rocksteady (not benign), reliable (not boring), who takes it on the chin*.
>> What the child seeks most is stability - you can give her that but you
>> *have* to stand back, take a look at what you and your ex are doing
>> objectively, and calm down. If the ex doesn't calm down, all the better
>> for you.
>> I fear for you that if you keep on like this, you *will* lose the child,
>> and suddenly your pride will not seem to matter so much...the child may
>> lose herself, and her life will be ruined.
>
> He should not involve the child in lies - lies of the mother, or lies
> of his own.
Agreed - which is why I consider it better to remain calm and rational
to the child - something she may appreciate at the moment. He doesn't
have to say anything - she will ask when she is prepared to listen and
possible believe.
>The child needs the truth.
See above. The child needs the truth, but that simply may not be
possible *at this moment in time*.
> He should not acquiesce in a
> lying situation.
What is the alternative to acquiescence if the other party cannot/will
not believe you?
abelard
wrote:
>>> I'm no expert, or lawyer, or child psy, but I think I have learned one
>>> thing, from having 6 children of my own, coming from a family of 15
>>> children, and having gone through various family conflicts over the
>>> decades
more than many a dullard psychologist ever does
> - *the child most trusts the person who is calm (not cold),
>>> rocksteady (not benign), reliable (not boring), who takes it on the chin*.
>>> What the child seeks most is stability - you can give her that but you
>>> *have* to stand back, take a look at what you and your ex are doing
>>> objectively, and calm down. If the ex doesn't calm down, all the better
>>> for you.
>>> I fear for you that if you keep on like this, you *will* lose the child,
>>> and suddenly your pride will not seem to matter so much...the child may
>>> lose herself, and her life will be ruined.
>>
>> He should not involve the child in lies - lies of the mother, or lies
>> of his own.
>
>Agreed - which is why I consider it better to remain calm and rational
>to the child - something she may appreciate at the moment. He doesn't
>have to say anything - she will ask when she is prepared to listen and
>possible believe.
>
>>The child needs the truth.
>
>See above. The child needs the truth, but that simply may not be
>possible *at this moment in time*.
>
>> He should not acquiesce in a
>> lying situation.
>
>What is the alternative to acquiescence if the other party cannot/will
>not believe you?
your post is entirely logical and sane....as so often...
regards
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted
> Ted wrote:
> > On Nov 1, 9:29 am, Maria <oldwo...@theshoe.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> Moderator wrote:
>
> >>> bigflet...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 31, 6:15 pm, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Saracene wrote:
> >>>>>>> “…I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
> >>>>>>> Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?…”
> >>> The mother has lied from the beginning (like most of these mothers
> >>> money over the years to remain in my child’s life. The first five
> >>> years I fought for some justice and never got it but I remained loyal
> >>> to the court order.
> >>> I ran out of work and money in January 2009. When enforcement started
> >>> I said, enough is enough and found my strength by understanding that
> >>> truth is stronger than lies. I had to have faith that the court would
> >>> do its job. I motioned for my refraining order and the subsequent
> >>> modification to the existing order which is required. After the first
> >>> 5 stages, the fifth was in front of a judge, I am feeling legally
> >>> the next hearing. Remember, I’m only there to modify a child support
> >>> order.
> >>> My kid refused to visit after I made service in June even though she
> >>> me for making service. I couldn’t believe it but I accepted it anyway.
> >>> I wasn’t going to force visitation on her.
> >>> I’ve just recently been able to start speaking with her but her
> >>> resentment is clear. She refuses to discuss the matter in any way
> >>> whatsoever. Then it came out last night. She let loose and it was all
> >>> regurgitated crap from her mother. (The mother is able to do this in a
> >>> manner which is so subtle that it is not obvious especially to a 14
> >>> year old kid).
> >>> The proof was in her statement about knowing what I was doing when she
> >>> was an infant. I also intend to show that as evidence in court.
> >>> record straight which means the mother is going to get verbally
> >>> my kid has. I don’t want to hurt the child by bad mouthing the mother.
> >>> As it stands, it’s the mother or me who is going to be trashed. If I
> >>> defend myself, the kid resents it. It’s a near impossible situation.
> >>> She already distrusts the mother but ironically, she accepts what she
> >>> says to a degree especially when it comes to me. The kid now is
> >>> distrustful of me even prior to our recent discussion.
> >>> reputation may or may not be salvaged but I have to try. I can’t let
> >>> it go. I have to defend myself against the allegations.
> >> Why? Why do you *have* to defend yourself?
>
> > He has to defend himself
>
> He doesn't - not that I think he is wrong to try to defend himself -
> everyone has that right, but it is evidently adding fuel to the fire.
Then the proper thing to do is to defend yourself without involving
the child, as far as possible. The action is in court, and he does
not really get the opportunity to talk to the child. It seems to me
he can't do much more to lessen the child's involvement.
> So, he can choose to defend himself, and add fuel to the fire, which may
> ensure that he loses his daughter for good
This is the possibility whether or not he defends himself.
>(I don't know which country
> he lives in but in the UK, absent parents have been completely banned
> from seeing their children by the courts for the very reason that the
> continuing conflict is harming the child...)
> It *is* harming her - to be the parent to back down when you know you
> are in the right is extremely difficult, but perhaps the only thing that
> will save her head.
To leave her believing in an untruth is not "saving her head".
>
>
>
> >> Seriously? Is your character assassination more important to you?
>
> > A "character assassination" is a set of untruths. Are you - or is
> > anyone - better off believing in a set of untruths, or are you better
> > off in knowing the truth?
>
> The child does not know what or who to believe at the moment. The child
> is better off knowing the truth, of course, but even if she heard the
> truth right now, how would she know it was the truth?
That is a dilemma we all face. Lying to her, or letting a lie go
unchallenged, is not going to help her resolve these problems.
> In my experience,
> it has taken an outsider who is a witness to convince the child that one
> or the other parent is being truthful. The child is a child, and does
> not have the judgemental or reasoning capacity of an adult...
She is 14. Holding her to childish standards is not going to be of
any benefit to her development..
> Moderator can state his case over and over again, but unless someone is
> *prepared* to believe him, it is worthless at the moment.
I disagree. Stating the truth is of value just by itself, whether or
not anyone is prepared to believe it.
> Sometimes it
> is better to state your case and walk away
Yes, I agree with that.
>to allow a period of digestion...
>
>
>
> >> Please
> >> think - stand back. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees.
>
> > Do you believe it is better to know an uncomfortable truth, or a
> > reassuring untruth? Which sets you up better for subsequent life?
>
> How is she going to know *any* truth at the moment, when she trusts
> neither of the people who are claiming to be telling the truth?
The sooner she learns how, the better.
Good advice.
>He doesn't
> have to say anything - she will ask when she is prepared to listen and
> possible believe.
He shouldn't leave her with known untruths though. She deserves the
opportunity to evaluate more than just one view of a situation.
>
> >The child needs the truth.
>
> See above. The child needs the truth, but that simply may not be
> possible *at this moment in time*.
>
> > He should not acquiesce in a
> > lying situation.
>
> What is the alternative to acquiescence if the other party cannot/will
> not believe you?
Present the facts and let them decide. The more complete the
presentation of the facts, the better the chances of them making a
good decision. Nothing is guaranteed, though.
Claire
> Claire wrote:
> > On 31 Oct, 11:07, "True Blue" <t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:5cf96470-4733-4365...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Oct 31, 5:00 am, "True Blue" <garybagg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> "Moderator" <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:fa036948-6499-45e1...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> >>> completely poisoned against me.
> >>> <snip>
> >>>> Hmmm... seems to me that you've been too lenient by far. What she needs
> >>>> is a
> >>>> firm hand. Tie her to something heavy and take your belt off. Give her
> >>>> two
> >>>> dozen, all the while reciting verse from the Old Testament. Short term
> >>>> she
> >>>> may resent this, or even inform the police, but in the long run she'll
> >>>> *respect you*.
> >>> Why would you hold your child responsible under the circumstances??
> >>> Its not her fault her views have been twisted. Corporal punishment is
> >>> unwarranted in ths situation. The mother however, should indeed be
> >>> tied to something heavy and lashed until she bleeds. Then she should
> >>> be thrown in jail just like the other mothers who pull the same
> >>> trickery to deprive their kids of their fathers.
> >> Perhaps the mother should be compelled to wear a scold's bridle and coarse
> >> hessian undergarments. Modern undergarments are an invention of Satan, and
> >> give rise to carnal thoughts that befit only the beasts of the field.
>
> > "Chairs??? We sit on spikes!!"
>
> Lend us your turnip please.
"Is that a pair of Devil's Dumplings?"
"Cold! Cold's God's way of telling us we're not burning enough
Catholics!"
Loved that episode even as a committed Christian! :-)
Moderator
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think I’ve done the responsible thing. Let me summarize:
1) We engaged in a verified online conversation where she expressed
resentment toward me.
2) When I tried to explain and she expressed more resentment.
3) She provided documentary evidence that she has been unfairly
alienated.
4) She provided documentary evidence that she trusts neither parent.
5) The next day I asked if she would consider attending family
counseling either joint or individually.
6) She agreed to counseling and provided days and times of her
availability (documentary).
A) Point one is common among any parent / child relationship.
B) Point two is less common but given that the parent is unable to
resolve the matter, a responsible parent might consider professional
counseling.
C) Point three provides evidence of parental alienation.
D) Point four suggests the other parent child relationship is deeply
troubled.
E) Point five suggests the actions of a responsible parent.
F) Point six provides documentary evidence the child is willing to
attend counseling whether or not her decision “changes”.
G) Counseling may yield more significant issues the child may have
with the mother than with the father and by comparison, the other
parent has never considered counseling even though the that parent
child relationship is troubled.
The smell of a change in custody is becoming stronger and although its
not my motivation and I won't request that decision from the court,
upon evidence the court may make that order regardless.
chazwin
Well if you have the money to throw away, fine. But remember this;
courts are not looking for truth or justice and are pretty fucking
hopeless about providing either.
You didn't answer my specific questions.
Moderator
I'll have a look for your questions and do my best to answer them but
I certainly do not intend of hiring a lawyer.
Moderator
> On Oct 31, 6:21 am, Moderator <meldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I spent an hour online getting trashed by my daughter. She’s been
> > completely poisoned against me. She thinks that both her parents are
> > lying to her. Its so disheartening. I’ve been honest with her and
> > fought for twelve years to stay in her life. Its taken everything I
> > have including $75,000 worth of legal bills.
>
> > I eventually broke down and started giving her some shit in an attempt
> > to clarify things. She has no idea the amount of lies she’s been told.
>
> > I can’t wait until January when the next hearing will take place. Her
> > mother has already fallen flat on her face at the last hearing and I’m
> > going to bury her at the next one.
>
> > Here’s a sample of what my daughter trased me with tonight:
>
> > “…I know that you never did anything when I was born. Didn't work?
> > Stayed in PJ's all day? watching TV?…”
>
> What does $75,000 mean to you? Most people would never have access to
> that sort of cash. Maybe it is a piss in the ocean, maybe it
> represents half your equity.
> One thing is for sure if your aim is to bury your ex then you might
> has well shoot yourlsef in the head. If you aim to do that then your
> daughter will always think you are an arse-hole. What are you hoping
> to achieve in the next hearing?
> Have you thought that it might be time to move on?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Over the first 6 years I spent the equivalent of three years of an
average salary. I have made 30K one year in my entire life so 75G's
was a fuck of a chunk of change and it got me no where. I bargained
everything for joint custody because she was threatening to move. The
final order was joint custody and she had it removed a year later (she
had a lawyer and I didn't - I had to pay costs for that one.) Since
then I shut up and played along except for being accused of uttering a
threat over the phone which never happened. I attended an expensive
anger management course on consent and the crown withdrew the charge.
During that time access was halted for about 3 months until I arranged
mediation and was given supervised visitation until the charge was
finally dropped. THat was about 5 years ago. I played along and shut
up for that perios and did what I could to obtain employment and paid
what I could for child support (set based on 28.8K per annum worked to
265 per month).
You have missed a bit of recent history. I ended up broke and
unemployed and enforcement against my driver's license was initiated
earlier this year. I had to do some deep sol searching and while I
was, I had written a little epic story of a hero's quest to give me
some inspiration. I discovered wile writing it, that truth was more
powerful than lies. Knowing that she had achieved success based on
lies, I resolved to fight back. I motioned for a refraining order
against the Family Reponsibility Office (Child Support). In Canada it
requires a further motion to change the original order and that's what
I did. I received my refraining order and saved my license and I've
been going through the 6 step process in Superior Court.
I recently finished step 5 which is a case conference in front of a
judge. All I said was, "I'm here because I motioned for a refraining
order." The judge then turned to her and began questioning her litany
of requests, complaints, allegations, inuendos and inferences once of
which was her request for the Office of the Children's Lawyer. The
judge threw that request out and I suspect he will do the same for the
other garbage she tried to introduce.
This is the heart of the Payor's Gambit which is derived from the
Hero's Gambit. I'm encouraging other fathers in similar situations to
take heed and utilize the informaton I have provided.
When I say burried, I mean I will be an onlooker. If the court does
its job, and there's every indication it will, she will be burried by
the court.
The British Common Law is a remarkable thing. Its not a farce but it
can certainly be manipulated against the truth and can be very unjust.
In my case, all this is changing due to the nature of the Motion to
Refrain. It turns the tables on the unjust and traps them in their own
game especially when they are self-represented. If they decide to hire
a lawyer, it also works against them since they are willing to put up
large amoutns of cash while they complain about not recevieing child
support.
Its pretty sweet really. Court is gong very well indeed. If a father
uses sound logic, there's not much a judge can do. if they go outside
the rules or ignore logic, an appeal can be launched and no judge
wants that to happen.
Chapters 10 and 11 of the Hero's Gambit reads as follows:
10. The hero depends however, on the foe being sound to halt in the
face of the hero’s just force. The hero has no interest in bringing
force even when it is just, but should the foe refuse, the hero will
muster full and just force against the foe until the foe learns to be
just. The hero takes such great effort to at first allow, then scare,
then force the foe to join in good faith because two in the fight for
justice is better than one, so long as their path remains true and
just. In a final demonstration the hero again proves just and true
since, should the foe still reject to join what is just, the hero will
be deeply saddened because it would mean the foe is unsound and fails
to recognize the mutual benefit available but continues to fight for
what is unjust and untrue and if so, the grail must be protected!
11. The hero with his faith and author beginning to restore and being
just and true, now places that decision in the hands of a greater
author, better able to deal with, and with more knowledge in, such
matters as the unsound when they are unjust. The hero stands in good
conscience knowing he did what was just, and such a profound decision
on the foe’s destiny may now, in good faith, be placed in the hands of
an author most able to make such a weighty determination. The hero
again places trust in what is sound and just and true by placing the
decision with a greater author, but believes the foe can learn to
trust what is sound and just and true and never again the grail be
threatened by such misguided a venture.
These two chapters apply to your final warnings. Force in the hands of
a just author is a good thing and will bring stability and justice to
what has been an injustice. My daughter will be thankful if or when it
happens.
The Hero's Gambit:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.men/msg/0a6ff763592b1db0
The Payor's Gambit:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.men/msg/d16983368075ed4a