Provable Lies Of The Warren Commission - #5 - Just For Coward Corbutt

[Ben Holmes]

Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.

Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)

The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was
still currently made. Their own documentation referred to a batch of
ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694 pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.

It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

The Warren Commission lied.

[Gil Jesus]

They sure did.

In 1965, Author Stewart Galanor wrote the company and received this letter advising that Western hadn't made the ammunition since 1944.
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/ammo-production.jpg

Feel free to right click and copy it for your files.

[Bud]

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:00:49 PM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:

> Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
> Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
> of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
> been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.
>
> Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
> ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
> manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
> ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
> 100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
>
> The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
> document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made,

"The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were manufactured in 1954."

https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/65-x-52-mannlicher-carcano/

> or was
> still currently made. Their own documentation referred to a batch of
> ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694 pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.
>
> It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
> (as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

"currently made" had nothing to do with the speculation they were debunking.

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:10:37 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> "The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at
> East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were manufactured in 1954."

That was a special production run for the CIA to provide ammunition for the upcoming overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.
When Arbenz fled in a bloodless coup, the American Government ( allegedly ) sold the ammo to private gun dealers and gun shops.
The Warren Commission lied when it said that the ammunition was "recently made" and that Western Cartridge, "manufactures such ammunition currently".
None of this ammunition was being produced in 1964.
It was nine year old ammunition made in a special one-off production run for the CIA.

NO REGULAR production runs were made after 1944.

Did you get that Bud ?
It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.

[Mark Ulrik]

It's interesting that Yellow Panties and Gilly think the shooter(s) were using old and unreliable ammo. Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the assassination was a low-budget operation after all.

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:00:21 AM UTC-4, Mark Ulrik wrote:
> It's interesting that Yellow Panties and Gilly think the shooter(s) were using old and unreliable ammo. Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the assassination was a low-budget operation after all.

I never described the ammo as old an unreliable.
I only said that there were no regular production runs after 1944.
I only said that the 1954 run was a one-off for your pals at the CIA.

PROVE ME WRONG

Once again, your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking.
As usual, you haven't refuted one single thing that I posted.
No citations
No documents
No testimony
No exhibits
No witness videos
No photographs
No links
All you post is silly comments, lies and insults.
A person can gain NO KNOWLEDGE from your posts.

[Mark Ulrik]

torsdag den 24. august 2023 kl. 14.07.29 UTC+2 skrev Gil Jesus:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:00:21 AM UTC-4, Mark Ulrik wrote:
> > It's interesting that Yellow Panties and Gilly think the shooter(s) were using old and unreliable ammo. Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the assassination was a low-budget operation after all.
> I never described the ammo as old an unreliable.

Now that we all seem to agree that the ammo wasn't old and unreliable, where's the beef?

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:46:47 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:10:37 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > "The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at
> > East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were manufactured in 1954."
> That was a special production run for the CIA to provide ammunition for the upcoming overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.

So the WC successfully debunked the speculation.

> When Arbenz fled in a bloodless coup, the American Government ( allegedly ) sold the ammo to private gun dealers and gun shops.

So there was nine year old ammunition of this type available on the open market.

> The Warren Commission lied when it said that the ammunition was "recently made" and that Western Cartridge, "manufactures such ammunition currently".

What timespan is the criteria for ammunition to be made to qualify as "recently made"?

> None of this ammunition was being produced in 1964.
> It was nine year old ammunition made in a special one-off production run for the CIA.
>
> NO REGULAR production runs were made after 1944.

Four million rounds were manufactured in 1954. I know it is difficult, but try to look at the relevant information.

> Did you get that Bud ?
> It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.

If it was on the open market than it was open market ammunition that killed Kennedy. Just like the Italian army isn`t responsible that one of their rifles killed Kennedy.

But that is just reasoning. And just a little more, why would they sell a rifle on the open market if you couldn`t purchase reliable ammunition for it?

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:38:42 AM UTC-4, Mark Ulrik wrote:
> torsdag den 24. august 2023 kl. 14.07.29 UTC+2 skrev Gil Jesus:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:00:21 AM UTC-4, Mark Ulrik wrote:
> > > It's interesting that Yellow Panties and Gilly think the shooter(s) were using old and unreliable ammo. Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the assassination was a low-budget operation after all.
> > I never described the ammo as old an unreliable.
> Now that we all seem to agree that the ammo wasn't old and unreliable, where's the beef?

Ben is trying to exploit the word "currently" to score some meaningless point that has nothing to do with the debunking of the speculation.

[John Corbett]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:46:47 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

Once the government sold it to private dealers, it was no longer CIA ammo. It is nice to see
you acknowledge that the Carcano was the murder weapon. We are making progress.

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:00:28 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> What timespan is the criteria for ammunition to be made to qualify as "recently made"?

The same timespan to qualify as "manufactures such ammunition currently"
The ammunition was not made after 1954.
Prove it was.
Normal production was ceased in 1944.
Prove it wasn't.
You're playing chickenshit word games again, as usual.

A numbnut like you would probably consider his 10 year old car as "recently made".

> But that is just reasoning. And just a little more, why would they sell a rifle on the open market if you couldn`t purchase reliable ammunition for it?

Some people collect weapons as souvenirs.

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:55:43 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> It is nice to see you acknowledge that the Carcano was the murder weapon. We are making progress.

Where did I say that ?
You nutters love to put words in my mouth.
I never said a word about the rifle.
Cite where I did.
You're dellusional.

We're talking about the ammunition. Try to keep up.
ROFLMAO.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 04:10:36 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:00:49?PM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>> Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
>> Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
>> of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
>> been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.
>>
>> Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
>> ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
>> manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
>> ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
>> 100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
>>
>> The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
>> document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made,
>
>"The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were
> mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by
> the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at East
> Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were
> manufactured in 1954."
>
> https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/65-x-52-mannlicher-carcano/

An unsourced claim made by a website doesn't refute a statement made
by the actual company involved.

You lose.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:00:25 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:


So, according to Bugliosi, it was this "oval" shape that was
"virtually conclusive evidence" of an SBT?

Chickenshit is TERRIFIED of this simple honest question. He knows
that Bugliosi was a moron if he truly thought this... yet you can't
get Chickenshit to publicly acknowledge that Bugliosi said this.

It's a simple "Yes" or "No" question, and Chickenshit cannot cite
where he has EVER answered it. (Without immediately denying it.)

So it's going to keep getting asked until Chickenshit answers it.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:55:41 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:46:47?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:10:37?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>>> "The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at
>>> East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were manufactured in 1954."
>> That was a special production run for the CIA to provide ammunition for the upcoming overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.
>> When Arbenz fled in a bloodless coup, the American Government ( allegedly ) sold the ammo to private gun dealers and gun shops.
>> The Warren Commission lied when it said that the ammunition was "recently made" and that Western Cartridge, "manufactures such ammunition currently".
>> None of this ammunition was being produced in 1964.
>> It was nine year old ammunition made in a special one-off production run for the CIA.
>>
>> NO REGULAR production runs were made after 1944.
>>
>> Did you get that Bud ?
>> It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.
>

>Once the government...

Logical fallacy deleted.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

> Ben is trying...

To stop your molesting of Ulrik's grandmother...

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:32:44 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:00:28 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > What timespan is the criteria for ammunition to be made to qualify as "recently made"?
> The same timespan to qualify as "manufactures such ammunition currently"

Two different concepts.

> The ammunition was not made after 1954.
> Prove it was.

Not necessary to debunk the speculation.

> Normal production was ceased in 1944.
> Prove it wasn't.

What was abnormal about the production run done for the Greek conflict?

> You're playing chickenshit word games again, as usual.

I am?

> A numbnut like you would probably consider his 10 year old car as "recently made".

But it would be ok to falsely consider the ammunition to be over 20 years old.

How much of a gun store`s stock of ammunition is over nine years old? Isn`t this just the kind of thing conspiracy folks make a big deal out of because they have nothing?

> > But that is just reasoning.

Gil removed the context to this remark...

Gil: "It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy."

Me: "If it was on the open market than it was open market ammunition that killed Kennedy. Just like the Italian army isn`t responsible that one of their rifles killed Kennedy."

If a WWII Mauser was used to kill Kennedy, Gil would think it implicated the Nazis.

> And just a little more, why would they sell a rifle on the open market if you couldn`t purchase reliable ammunition for it?
> Some people collect weapons as souvenirs.

That`s what you are going with, that they weren`t being bought to shoot, just to look at?

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:02:45 AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Ben is trying...
>
> To stop your molesting of Ulrik's grandmother...

I told you to stop fucking your dead mother in the ass, the poor woman is falling apart.

I wrote this, which is 100% true...

"Ben is trying to exploit the word "currently" to score some meaningless point that has nothing to do with the debunking of the speculation."

Ben hates when his silly game playing is looked at correctly.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:11:24 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:32:44?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:00:28?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>> > What timespan is the criteria for ammunition to be made to qualify as "recently made"?
>> The same timespan to qualify as "manufactures such ammunition currently"
>
> Two different concepts.

Which concept does cowardice fall under?

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:02:45?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Ben is trying...
>>
>> To stop your molesting of Ulrik's grandmother...

And yet, Chickenshit continues, and fails to apologize for putting
words in my mouth that I never said...

[Ben Holmes]

Has anyone noticed that even *BELIEVERS* cite evidence that the WCR
lied, yet refuse to publicly acknowledge this fact?

As I clearly stated: It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A

CITATION TO CURRENTLY (as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in
the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

The Warren Commission lied.

And believers refuse to publicly acknowledge this proven fact.

*That* tells the tale...

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:59:46 AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 04:10:36 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:00:49?PM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> >> Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
> >> Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
> >> of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
> >> been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.
> >>
> >> Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
> >> ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
> >> manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
> >> ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
> >> 100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
> >>
> >> The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
> >> document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made,
> >
> >"The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were
> > mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by
> > the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at East
> > Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were
> > manufactured in 1954."
> >
> > https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/65-x-52-mannlicher-carcano/
> An unsourced claim made by a website doesn't refute a statement made
> by the actual company involved.

So you believe the ammunition used in the assassination was WWII ammunition. Good.

[Bud]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:18:57 AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
> wrote:
> >On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:02:45?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> >> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Ben is trying...
> >>
> >> To stop your molesting of Ulrik's grandmother...
> And yet, Chickenshit continues, and fails to apologize for putting
> words in my mouth that I never said...

This characterization was accurate...

"Ben is trying to exploit the word "currently" to score some meaningless point that has nothing to do with the debunking of the speculation."

Ben just hates the truth.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:18:57?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:02:45?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ben is trying...
>>>>
>>>> To stop your molesting of Ulrik's grandmother...
>>
>> And yet, Chickenshit continues, and fails to apologize for putting
>> words in my mouth that I never said...
>>

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:32:44 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

[John Corbett]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:39:38 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:55:43 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > It is nice to see you acknowledge that the Carcano was the murder weapon. We are making progress.
> Where did I say that ?

Bud said:
"The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US
west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of
Olin industries Inc., at East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were
manufactured in 1954."

After pointing out that was a special run made for the CIA, you replied:

"Did you get that Bud ?
It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy."

You said it was the CIA ammo that killed JFK. The ammo we were discussing was the 6.5mm
ammo made for the Carcano. It follows that it was the Carcano that killed JFK.

> You nutters love to put words in my mouth.
> I never said a word about the rifle.
> Cite where I did.

It's called a logical inference. Having served on several juries, I know judges instruct jurors to
make logical inferences from the evidence. Since you said 6.5mm Carcano ammo was used to
kill JFK, the logical inference is a Carcano was used to kill JFK.

> You're dellusional.
>
> We're talking about the ammunition. Try to keep up.

The 6.5mm x 52 Carcano cartridge was developed specifically for the 1891 Carcano and
successors. There are other 6.5mm rifles but it is dangerous to use ammo in a firearm which
was not designed to accept it. If your theoretical conspirators used a rifle other than the Carcano,
Why the hell wouldn't they select the ammo made specifically for that rifle?

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:15:28 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:39:38?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 9:55:43?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>> > It is nice to see you acknowledge that the Carcano was the murder weapon. We are making progress.
>> Where did I say that ?
>
>Bud said:

Nobody cares what "Bud" said. Here's what you're running from:

Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.

Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)

The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't

document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was

still currently made. Their own documentation referred to a batch of
ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694 pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.

It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

AND CLEARLY, CORBUTT DIDN'T.

The Warren Commission lied.

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Bud]

Actually you seem to be talking out of both side s of your mouth about the ammunition. You produce a person from Winchester who said they hadn`t made any ammo since 1944, and then you say they made ammunition for the CIA in 1954. Which is it?

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Bud]

My ownership of Swampy the Troll continues....

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 14:05:48 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> Actually you seem to be talking out of both side s of your mouth about the ammunition. You produce a person from Winchester who said they hadn`t made any ammo since 1944, and then you say they made ammunition for the CIA in 1954. Which is it?

I already explained to you, dumbass. Apparently, your knowledge of manufacturing, like your knowledge of everything else, is limited.

Regular scheduled production of the ammunition was halted in 1944.

At the request of the CIA, there were four SPECIAL production runs in 1954 of one million rounds for the Agency. They bore special lot numbers 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003. This ammunition was to be used for an anticipated coup against Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. Arbenz had nationalized land owned by United Fruit, whose board of directors included Allen Dulles, and given that land to the peasants. The CIA used radio broadcasts saying that the American Navy was enroute. Fearing for his life, Arbenz fled and an armed conflict between his forces and the US never materialized. At least some of that ammunition was sold to commercial dealers, but I can't say for sure that ALL of it was sold.
Can you ?

If you have evidence that ALL of this ammunition was sold and was not used in the Bay of Pigs invasion, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in 1961 or the assassination of Rafael Trujillo in 1961, please post it.

You like to play word games, so here's one for you:

Explain why the Warren Commission LIED when it claimed in 1964 that WCC, "manufactures ( present tense ) such ammunition currently ( at the present time ) " when the ammunition was at least 10 years old.
Or produce proof that there were production runs in 1964.

[Gil Jesus]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:20:12 PM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
> (as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.
> No one ever has... no one ever will.
> AND CLEARLY, CORBUTT DIDN'T.
>
> The Warren Commission lied.

Yes they did. And the trolls lied about what I said on two different occasions just in this thread alone.
The trolls, like the Commission they worship, are liars.
That's what they do, lie. It's their native tongue.
And when I ask them, "when did i say that ?" they go silent because they know they've been caught in another lie.
SPANKED AGAIN.

Maybe if their parents had spanked them when they lied as kids, we wouldn't have to do it here as adults.

But don't feel sorry for them. They're so far out of touch with reality that they can't be embarrassed.

It's kind of ironic, really.
The ones who come in here hoping to expose the lies of "conspiracy theorists" end up being exposed as liars themselves.
I guess that's what happens when you support a lie, it makes a liar out of you as well.

[Bud]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 5:41:09 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > Actually you seem to be talking out of both side s of your mouth about the ammunition. You produce a person from Winchester who said they hadn`t made any ammo since 1944, and then you say they made ammunition for the CIA in 1954. Which is it?
> I already explained to you, dumbass. Apparently, your knowledge of manufacturing, like your knowledge of everything else, is limited.

Your empty claims to know things are meaningless.

> Regular scheduled production of the ammunition was halted in 1944.

Not what your source said. Your source said...

"Any previous production on this cartridge was made against Government contracts which were completed back in 1944."

Your source is saying the last production of this bullet was in 1944.

> At the request of the CIA,

Where did you show this?

> there were four SPECIAL production runs in 1954 of one million rounds for the Agency.

You aren`t showing anything special about this production run. It`s a contract from the government. They made billions of bullets for the Government.

But your source said the last production run for this bullet was in 1944.

>They bore special lot numbers 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003.

You haven`t shown they were given lot numbers because they were "special".

>This ammunition was to be used for an anticipated coup against Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala.

Support that.

> Arbenz had nationalized land owned by United Fruit, whose board of directors included Allen Dulles, and given that land to the peasants. The CIA used radio broadcasts saying that the American Navy was enroute. Fearing for his life, Arbenz fled and an armed conflict between his forces and the US never materialized. At least some of that ammunition was sold to commercial dealers, but I can't say for sure that ALL of it was sold.
> Can you ?

What difference could that possibly make? Once some of this ammunition was available on the open market, anyone could buy it, even the CIA, or Oswald.

> If you have evidence that ALL of this ammunition was sold and was not used in the Bay of Pigs invasion, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in 1961 or the assassination of Rafael Trujillo in 1961, please post it.

Why?

> You like to play word games, so here's one for you:
>
> Explain why the Warren Commission LIED when it claimed in 1964 that WCC, "manufactures ( present tense ) such ammunition currently ( at the present time ) " when the ammunition was at least 10 years old.

I don`t know why they said what they said anywhere, I only know what they said. Perhaps they got hold of a Western Cartridge Company catalog and saw the round and thought they were still making it. They shouldn`t have said anything about it at all as it had absolutely nothing to do with debunking the speculation.

> Or produce proof that there were production runs in 1964.

That would be the wrong thing to look at. The relevant thing is whether it was available to the public.

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > Explain why the Warren Commission LIED when it claimed in 1964 that WCC, "manufactures ( present tense ) such ammunition currently ( at the present time ) " when the ammunition was at least 10 years old.

> Perhaps they got hold of a Western Cartridge Company catalog and saw the round and thought they were still making it.

Perhaps ? You're speculating again. They saw it in a 20 year old catatlog and thought it was still being manufactured ?
Is this supposed to be an investgation, or a guessing game ?

> > Or produce proof that there were production runs in 1964.
> That would be the wrong thing to look at. The relevant thing is whether it was available to the public.

No the relevant thing is whether or not the Warren Commission lied when it said it was currently being manufactured.

Nice try, but you lose again.

[Bud]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:21:35 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > > Explain why the Warren Commission LIED when it claimed in 1964 that WCC, "manufactures ( present tense ) such ammunition currently ( at the present time ) " when the ammunition was at least 10 years old.
> > Perhaps they got hold of a Western Cartridge Company catalog and saw the round and thought they were still making it.
> Perhaps ? You're speculating again. They saw it in a 20 year old catatlog and thought it was still being manufactured ?

You speculate they lied, right? But why would they need to lie because if you take out the bit about it currently being made the debunking isn`t harmed.

> Is this supposed to be an investgation, or a guessing game ?

It is them making the mistake that they address all the issues people might raise. They should have just said "The ammunition was available on the open market", the only relevant consideration, and left it at that.

> > > Or produce proof that there were production runs in 1964.
> > That would be the wrong thing to look at. The relevant thing is whether it was available to the public.
> No the relevant thing is whether or not the Warren Commission lied when it said it was currently being manufactured.

Irrelevant to debunking the speculation.

> Nice try, but you lose again.

What about all this you ran from...

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:41:17 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:

< stupid comments deleted >

OK brainiac, I looked it up.
Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )
What happened to the other two million rounds ?

[Bud]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:41:17 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>
> < stupid comments deleted >
>
> OK brainiac, I looked it up.
> Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )

So how is this an issue?

> What happened to the other two million rounds ?

In case the wanted to assassinate a huge amount of people?

And you ran from all this *again*...

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:27:11 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> > OK brainiac, I looked it up.
> > Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )
> So how is this an issue?

Aren't you the guy who said that once the ammo was placed on sale, it was no longer CIA ammo ?
Well, two million rounds were never placed on sale to private dealers, does that mean it was still in the hands of the CIA ?

> > What happened to the other two million rounds ?
> In case the wanted to assassinate a huge amount of people?

The CIA tried 638 times to kill Castro.
The OAS fired 147 rounds at DeGaulle's car, only hit it 7 times and never hit the four passengers inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGV4TOJbaeU

But Oswald only fired three shots in his first try and killed the President.
He had to be the best shot in the world.

[Bud]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:51:39 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:27:11 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> > > OK brainiac, I looked it up.
> > > Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )
> > So how is this an issue?
> Aren't you the guy who said that once the ammo was placed on sale, it was no longer CIA ammo ?

Once it was available to the public it was available to the public.

> Well, two million rounds were never placed on sale to private dealers, does that mean it was still in the hands of the CIA ?

Have you shown it was ever in their hands?

> > > What happened to the other two million rounds ?
> > In case the wanted to assassinate a huge amount of people?
> The CIA tried 638 times to kill Castro.
> The OAS fired 147 rounds at DeGaulle's car, only hit it 7 times and never hit the four passengers inside.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGV4TOJbaeU
>
> But Oswald only fired three shots in his first try and killed the President.
> He had to be the best shot in the world.

Why give soldiers rifles at all if they can`t hit anything with them?

And you are *still* missing all this...

[Ben Holmes]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 08:59:15 -0700, Ben Holmes
<Ad...@ConspiracyJFKForum.com> wrote:

>Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
>Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
>of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
>been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.
>
>Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
>ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
>manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
>ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
>100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
>
>The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
>document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was
>still currently made. Their own documentation referred to a batch of
>ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694 pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.
>

>It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
>(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.
>
>No one ever has... no one ever will.
>

>The Warren Commission lied.


Huckster read this, then simply ran away...

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 03:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Gil Jesus
<gjjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

The fact that believers run from even the most obvious of lies - and
try to defend them - tells the tale.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 02:41:07 -0700 (PDT), Gil Jesus
<gjjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Chickenshit will do what Chickenshit does best, he'll run.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 03:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Gil Jesus
<gjjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Spanked again. These liars can't look at things correctly. Of
course, that's what liars do.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 03:11:30 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 5:41:09?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 4:43:56?PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>> > Actually you seem to be talking out of both side s of your mouth about the ammunition. You produce a person from Winchester who said they hadn`t made any ammo since 1944, and then you say they made ammunition for the CIA in 1954. Which is it?
>> I already explained to you, dumbass. Apparently, your knowledge of manufacturing, like your knowledge of everything else, is limited.
>

> Your empty claims ...

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 03:41:16 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:21:35?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:11:31?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>>>> Explain why the Warren Commission LIED when it claimed in 1964 that WCC, "manufactures ( present tense ) such ammunition currently ( at the present time ) " when the ammunition was at least 10 years old.
>>> Perhaps they got hold of a Western Cartridge Company catalog and saw the round and thought they were still making it.
>> Perhaps ? You're speculating again. They saw it in a 20 year old catatlog and thought it was still being manufactured ?
>

> You ...

Need to answer this:

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:51:39?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:27:11?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
>>>> OK brainiac, I looked it up.
>>>> Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )
>>> So how is this an issue?
>> Aren't you the guy who said that once the ammo was placed on sale, it was no longer CIA ammo ?

<lies deleted.>

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 05:27:09 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:41:17?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>>
>> < stupid comments deleted >
>>
>> OK brainiac, I looked it up.
>> Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )

<stupid responses deleted>

[John Corbett]

You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.

[John Corbett]

Why does that matter? Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman,
one would have sufficed.

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
> showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
> manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
> you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
> killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
> that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.

Wrong as usual.
YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK. I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.
I NEVER said anything about the rifle being the murder weapon. And you're a liar for saying that I did.
If now you're going to claim deductive reasoning as your "evidence" that I said the rifle was the murder weapon, then you're full of shit as well.

Here's some advice, John:

Stick to posting your stupid comments, because your powers of deduction are as kooky as some of the most kooky conspiracy theories I've ever heard.
Yeah, that's right. You're as bad as they are. You take something that someone says, twist it all around and turn it into something they didn't say.
It's called misinformation and because you do it INTENTIONALLY it makes you a liar in my book.

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.

Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.
27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.

Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.
18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/

That's 45 rounds fired from that rifle and no one could duplicate his performance.

Admit it, this was more than luck. Oswald was the best shot in the world.

[Chuck Schuyler]

Your logical fallacy here is called a false equivalence fallacy.

https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/

If Oswald's shots were somehow duplicated EXACTLY by tests carried out by the FBI or another group, you'd find that suspicious, too. Heads you win, tails the Oswald Alone side loses.

You're undefeated, in your mind.

https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/

Read. Learn. Take a critical thinking class. Study how to stop using logical fallacies in your arguments. Improve.

By the way, have you given up on the idea of discussing your "those Oswald photos look like different Oswalds to me," thread?

[Steven Galbraith]

I'd like to know how the Birchers - the group he says killed JFK - obtained this supposed CIA ammunition. I'm sure he'll have lots of "cites".

[John Corbett]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:37:50 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
> > showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
> > manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
> > you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
> > killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
> > that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.
> Wrong as usual.
> YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK. I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.

There was no "if" in your statement. You stated it as a fact. I noticed you deleted what you wrote earlier, but we still have a record of it. As a refresher, you stated:

"Did you get that Bud ?
It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy."

> I NEVER said anything about the rifle being the murder weapon. And you're a liar for saying that I did.

You said ammo made specifically for the Carcano was used to kill JFK. So how do you explain
CIA killing JFK was Carcano ammo if not fired by a Carcano rifle. There are other 6.5mm rifles
but they use different size cartridges than the Carcano.

> If now you're going to claim deductive reasoning as your "evidence" that I said the rifle was the murder weapon, then you're full of shit as well.

We notice you didn't point out any flaw in my deductive reasoning.

>
> Here's some advice, John:
>
> Stick to posting your stupid comments, because your powers of deduction are as kooky as some of the most kooky conspiracy theories I've ever heard.

I spelled out how I deduced what I did. You didn't even make an attempt at a rebuttal.

> Yeah, that's right. You're as bad as they are. You take something that someone says, twist it all around and turn it into something they didn't say.

I didn't twist anything. I pointed out the logical inference of your emphatic statement that CIA
ammo killed JFK. I didn't need to twist anything.

> It's called misinformation and because you do it INTENTIONALLY it makes you a liar in my book.

There's no misinformation. I quoted you directly and pointed out the consequences of your
statement.

[John Corbett]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:45:57 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.
> Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.

Why would you think they were trying to duplicate Oswald's performance?

> 27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.

What they discovered was the scope was aimed slightly high and to the right. We are talking about inches. Given how the target was moving down Elm St., Oswald would need to aim
slightly high and to the right to give the proper lead. We don't know if Oswald was aiming at the
head or the torso but whichever it was, he only hit his target once and had one near miss which
struck JFK on a different part of his body than what he was aiming at. Oswald didn't need a
weapon with pinpoint accuracy in order to get the job done. Close enough was good enough.

>
> Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.

Matching Oswald's performance is a red herring introduced by the conspiracy hobbyists to try
to exonerate Oswald. Oswald wasn't trying to match anybody. He was trying to shoot JFK. He
tried three times and hit him twice at a relatively short range. Not exactly world class shooting.

> 18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
> https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/

You're putting your ignorance of firearms on full display Gil. Fixed sights and scopes are set to
hit a target at a specific range. If you fire from a shorter distance, the shots are going to be high. If fired at a longer distance, the shots are going to be low. That's because a bullet in flight arcs
downward from it's initial direction. The fixed sights on the Carcano were zeroed for 200 meters.
I don't know what the scope was set for but we can safely say it wasn't for either 15 or 25 yards.
Who would need a scope at such short range. It should come as no surprise that the rifle would
shoot high at either distance.

>
> That's 45 rounds fired from that rifle and no one could duplicate his performance.
>

Nobody was trying to. They were testing the performance of the rifle. It is preposterous to argue
that the Carcano was incapable of firing the shots that killed JFK given that he only two bullets
recovered were positively matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in
the world. This includes the fragmented bullet found by the SS in the limo which were the remnants
from the headshot.

> Admit it, this was more than luck. Oswald was the best shot in the world.

If Oswald was the best shot in the world, Kennedy would have been killed with the first shot. He
wouldn't have needed three to score a kill shot.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 07:26:57 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:03:34?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:20:12?PM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>>> It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
>>> (as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.
>>> No one ever has... no one ever will.
>>> AND CLEARLY, CORBUTT DIDN'T.
>>>
>>> The Warren Commission lied.
>> Yes they did. And the trolls lied about what I said on two different occasions just in this thread alone.
>> The trolls, like the Commission they worship, are liars.
>> That's what they do, lie. It's their native tongue.
>> And when I ask them, "when did i say that ?" they go silent because they know they've been caught in another lie.
>> SPANKED AGAIN.
>>
>> Maybe if their parents had spanked them when they lied as kids, we wouldn't have to do it here as adults.
>>
>> But don't feel sorry for them. They're so far out of touch with reality that they can't be embarrassed.
>>
>> It's kind of ironic, really.
>> The ones who come in here hoping to expose the lies of "conspiracy theorists" end up being exposed as liars themselves.
>> I guess that's what happens when you support a lie, it makes a liar out of you as well.
>

>You claim I lied Gil ...

It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

You lose.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:37:50?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>>> You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
>>> showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
>>> manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
>>> you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
>>> killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
>>> that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.
>> Wrong as usual.
>> YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK. I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.
>

>There was no "if" in your statement...

There was no cite in yours.

It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

You lose.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 07:29:46 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 7:51:52?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:41:17?AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>>
>> < stupid comments deleted >
>>
>> OK brainiac, I looked it up.
>> Out of the four million rounds manufactured in 1954, the FBI found that only two million were placed on sale. ( 3 H 400 )
>> What happened to the other two million rounds ?
>
>Why does that matter?

What matters is that you couldn't cite.

You lost.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:14:55 -0700 (PDT), Chuck Schuyler
<chucksch...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:45:57?AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>>> Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.
>> Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.
>> 27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.
>>
>> Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.
>> 18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
>> https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/
>>
>> That's 45 rounds fired from that rifle and no one could duplicate his performance.
>>
>> Admit it, this was more than luck. Oswald was the best shot in the world.

Logical fallacy deleted.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:17:55 -0700 (PDT), Steven Galbraith
<stevemg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I'd like to know how the Birchers - the group he says killed JFK - obtained this supposed CIA ammunition. I'm sure he'll have lots of "cites".

Another coward who can't cite...

Does it suprise anyone?

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 14:00:56 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:45:57?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>> > Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.
>> Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.

Logical fallacy deleted.

>> 27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.
>

>What they discovered...


Since you refused to cite, it's clearly a lie... so I deleted it.

>> Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.

Logical fallacy deleted.

>> 18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
>> https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/

Yet another logical fallacy deleted.

>> That's 45 rounds fired from that rifle and no one could duplicate his performance.

Corbutt can't argue without logical fallacies... deleted.

>> Admit it, this was more than luck. Oswald was the best shot in the world.
>

>If ...


Nope. No speculation need be asserted.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:46:47 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 7:10:37 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > "The white 20-round cardboard 6,5mm Carcano ammunition boxes were mostly sold in the US west and Midwest gunshops. They had been made by the WESTERN CARTRIDGE Co., division of Olin industries Inc., at
> > East Alton, Illinois and four lots of one million rounds each were manufactured in 1954."
> That was a special production run for the CIA to provide ammunition for the upcoming overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.
> When Arbenz fled in a bloodless coup, the American Government ( allegedly ) sold the ammo to private gun dealers and gun shops.
> The Warren Commission lied when it said that the ammunition was "recently made" and that Western Cartridge, "manufactures such ammunition currently".
> None of this ammunition was being produced in 1964.
> It was nine year old ammunition made in a special one-off production run for the CIA.
>
> NO REGULAR production runs were made after 1944.

>
> Did you get that Bud ?
> It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.

Where is your source that the 1954 production run of 6.5 Carcano was for the CIA? I don't
mean someone pulling it out of their ass, but actual documentation that the order was
for the CIA.

[Hank Sienzant]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:37:50 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
> > showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
> > manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
> > you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
> > killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
> > that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.
> Wrong as usual.
> YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK.

No, you did. In talking about the 6.5 Carcano ammo, you said: "It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/gQF-VMCO_VY/m/xk5qhCr2AAAJ

> I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.

No, you also admitted two million rounds were for sale to the public. That means the ammo that killed Kennedy wasn't necessarily CIA ammo. And where did you show that the CIA had any of this ammo?

You did make this claim, but never cited for it: "That (the 1954 production run) was a special production run for the CIA to provide ammunition for the upcoming overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala. When Arbenz fled in a bloodless coup, the American Government ( allegedly ) sold the ammo to private gun dealers and gun shops."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/gQF-VMCO_VY/m/xk5qhCr2AAAJ

> I NEVER said anything about the rifle being the murder weapon.

Was it a different Carcano? Or the one filmed and photographed in the TSBD shortly after the assassination.

> And you're a liar for saying that I did.
> If now you're going to claim deductive reasoning as your "evidence" that I said the rifle was the murder weapon, then you're full of shit as well.
>
> Here's some advice, John:
>
> Stick to posting your stupid comments, because your powers of deduction are as kooky as some of the most kooky conspiracy theories I've ever heard.
> Yeah, that's right. You're as bad as they are. You take something that someone says, twist it all around and turn it into something they didn't say.

You claimed "It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy". You also claimed the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition "was a special production run for the CIA."

That sure sounds like you're saying 6.5mm Carcano ammunition killed Kennedy. Which means a 6.5 Carcano killed Kennedy. Where is the disconnect here?

> It's called misinformation and because you do it INTENTIONALLY it makes you a liar in my book.

And you're reduced to name-calling.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:37:50 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
> > showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
> > manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
> > you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
> > killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
> > that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.
> Wrong as usual.
> YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK. I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.

The "CIA ammo" thing is an unsourced, baseless claim on your part.
A claim that you cannot support.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:45:57 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.
> Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.
> 27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.

Looks like they hit quite the target quite a bit. 15 times out of 27
shots, at speed, and with a rifle they were unfamiliar with.

> Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.
> 18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
> https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/

Who said that they were aiming at the head? CE 582 is the
first target. It was the closest target, and the one that the the
shooters had the most time to line up. Not coincidentally, it
also features the tightest grouping of the three targets. This
grouping shows where the shooters were actually aiming: they
were aiming for the center of mass of the target, not the head.

The idea that they or Oswald or anyone else were aiming for
the "head area" is purely your own invention.

[...]

[Gil Jesus]

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:10:07 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> they were aiming for the center of mass of the target, not the head.

Source ?

> The idea that they or Oswald or anyone else were aiming for the "head area" is purely your own invention.

What do you think the assassin was aiming for with Kennedy's "center mass" covered up by the back seat ?

Idiot.

[John Corbett]

We can never know what Oswald was aiming at but whether it was the head or the torso, two
of his three shots missed his aiming point. One missed so badly it didn't even hit inside the car.
Most likely, he missed right of target which would miss the limo entirely. Unless one believes he
aimed the other two shots at different parts of the body, one the two hits was on target and the
other missed by about a foot. Which one of the shots that hit his aiming point is a matter of
guesswork.

[John Corbett]

Obviously it wasn't completely covered up because the first bullet that struck him did so high
on his back. If Oswald was aiming at the torso, the second of his two hits was about a foot
above the aiming point. If he was aiming at the head, the first of his two hits was about a
foot below the aiming point.

Only Oswald knows what he was aiming at and he's not talking. In golf, it is not uncommon to
mishit a shot and still end up with a very good result. When that happens, you can count on at
least one of your buddies to say, "Nice miss". The head shot might well have been a nice miss.
Oswald might have been aiming for the torso and a high shot struck JFK in the head.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 11:46:32 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:10:07 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> > they were aiming for the center of mass of the target, not the head.
> Source ?

I explained why: "CE 582 is the first target. It was the closest

target, and the one that the the shooters had the most time to
line up. Not coincidentally, it also features the tightest grouping
of the three targets. This grouping shows where the shooters
were actually aiming"

Now, where is *your* source for *your* assertion that they were
aiming for "the head area?" Or are you just trying to avoid

> > The idea that they or Oswald or anyone else were aiming for the "head area" is purely your own invention.
>
> What do you think the assassin was aiming for with Kennedy's "center mass" covered up by the back seat ?
>
> Idiot.

You aim for the center of mass of the available ( i.e. visible) target.
You sound like you've never been around firearms very much.

[John Corbett]

If he had, he would know why the rifle would shoot high at such short ranges whether the
shooter used the fixed sights of the scope.

[Gil Jesus]

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> Spanked again. These liars can't look at things correctly. Of
> course, that's what liars do.

This FBI report said that Western Cartridge was selling ammo to the Italian government during WW 2.
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/WH_Vol26_62-ammo-production.gif

It's corroborated by the letter to Galanor saying that regular production ended in 1944, the same year the US entered the European theater.
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/ammo-production.jpg

At that point, no more selling arms to the Italians. And there's no evidence that there were any production runs between 1944 and 1954.

Four production runs of one million rounds each were made in 1954 for the Department of Defense ( at the request of the CIA, who were forbidden to buy arms by law and had to get them through the DOD ) and there is no evidence that any other production runs were made after that.

There was nothing "recently made" or "manufactures such ammuntition currently" about the ammunition.
Most of it was made during WW II with special production for the CIA in 1954.

Two million rounds of that CIA ammo was sold to private gun dealers.
What happened to the CIA's other two million rounds ?

They claimed the bullets that killed Kennedy came from that production run of 1954.
The Warren Commission failed to identify the source of the ammuntion because the odds were 50-50 those bullets came from the CIA.

[John Corbett]

Why does it even matter what production run Oswald bought his ammo from?

You inability to figure out such a simple case of a double murder is probably due in large part
to you obsessing over these unimportant questions instead of looking at the incriminating
evidence of your client's guilt.

[Bud]

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 9:29:49 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
> > Spanked again. These liars can't look at things correctly. Of
> > course, that's what liars do.
>
> This FBI report said that Western Cartridge was selling ammo to the Italian government during WW 2.
> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/WH_Vol26_62-ammo-production.gif

Maybe they did. The war went on for about two years after Italy surrendered. From the internet...

"Many Italian soldiers, sailors and airmen did fight the Germans after the Italian armistice. From October 1943 The Italian Co-belligerent Army fielded between 266,000 and 326,000 troops in the Italian Campaign, of whom 50,000, (some sources state up to 99,000) were combat troops."

They would likely be using Carcanos.

> It's corroborated by the letter to Galanor saying that regular production ended in 1944, the same year the US entered the European theater.

You are lying about what your own source said and you are making a distinction you haven`t shown exists.

The guy from Winchester wrote...

"Any previous production on this cartridge was made against Government contracts which were completed back in 1944."

Nothing about "regular production", he wrote that *all* production was completed in 1944.

But now that I think of it you really need to see the letter Galanor wrote to see what the Winchester guy was responding to.

> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/ammo-production.jpg
>
> At that point, no more selling arms to the Italians. And there's no evidence that there were any production runs between 1944 and 1954.
>
> Four production runs of one million rounds each were made in 1954 for the Department of Defense ( at the request of the CIA, who were forbidden to buy arms by law and had to get them through the DOD )

Still haven`t seen that supported.

> and there is no evidence that any other production runs were made after that.
>
> There was nothing "recently made" or "manufactures such ammuntition currently" about the ammunition.
> Most of it was made during WW II with special production for the CIA in 1954.

Not the ammunition Oswald used.

> Two million rounds of that CIA ammo was sold to private gun dealers.
> What happened to the CIA's other two million rounds ?

What does that matter?

> They claimed the bullets that killed Kennedy came from that production run of 1954.
> The Warren Commission failed to identify the source of the ammuntion because the odds were 50-50 those bullets came from the CIA.

What a stump! It isn`t 50-50. Like saying you can buy a used truck it might run correctly or not run correctly, so the odds are 50-50.

[Hank Sienzant]

Celebrate the small victories, Bud.

Within a few days, we’ve gotten Gil down to 50% from 100% certainty:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/gQF-VMCO_VY/m/xk5qhCr2AAAJ
“Did you get that Bud ? It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.”

Only 50% more to go! Of course, as we approach the goal, attaining it gets harder and harder… like a mass approaching the speed of light.

[Bud]

As is often the case Gil`s claim made me think of something humorous I saw elsewhere while traveling the ether. The premise of this site is a comedic take on what a pitch meeting to a movie that has been released might have looked like. This one is to the movie "Sharknado"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYootnc0uew

The part that brought to my mind Gil`s claim is at 5:15 (the whole thing is funny)...

First Guy: "What are the odds that it was the same shark that Nova fell into?"

Second Guy: "50%, either it was or it wasn`t."

First Guy: "Is that how math works?"

[Ben Holmes]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 11:37:50?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:26:59?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>> > You claim I lied Gil but you never responded directly to my last post in this thread in which I
>> > showed logically that you claimed the 6.5mm X 52 ammo the CIA purchased which had been
>> > manufactured specifically for the Carcano rifle had been used to kill JFK. It seems likely to me
>> > you made that claim without thinking through the ramifications of your claim. If JFK had been
>> > killed by one of the cartridges manufactured for the CIA specifically for use in the Carcano,
>> > that clearly implies the Carcano was the murder weapon.
>> Wrong as usual.
>> YOU PEOPLE claim the ammunition killed JFK.

Logical fallacy deleted.

>> I was simply pointing out that if that was true, then the ammo was CIA ammo.

Logical fallacy deleted.

>> I NEVER said anything about the rifle being the murder weapon.

Logical fallacy deleted.

>> And you're a liar for saying that I did.
>> If now you're going to claim deductive reasoning as your "evidence" that I said the rifle was the murder weapon, then you're full of shit as well.
>>
>> Here's some advice, John:
>>
>> Stick to posting your stupid comments, because your powers of deduction are as kooky as some of the most kooky conspiracy theories I've ever heard.
>> Yeah, that's right. You're as bad as they are. You take something that someone says, twist it all around and turn it into something they didn't say.
>

>You ...

No Huckster, we're examining YOUR blatant lies.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 16:46:53 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>If he had, he would know why the rifle would shoot high at such short ranges whether the
>shooter used the fixed sights of the scope.

Are you attempting to claim expertise with a rifle?

[Ben Holmes]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 06:29:47 -0700 (PDT), Gil Jesus
<gjjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

And, of course, Huckster remains ABSOLUTELY SILENT here - because he
can't tell a lie big enough to cover this WCR lie.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 09:53:54 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:46:32?PM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:10:07?PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> they were aiming for the center of mass of the target, not the head.
>> Source ?
>>> The idea that they or Oswald or anyone else were aiming for the "head area" is purely your own invention.
>> What do you think the assassin was aiming for with Kennedy's "center mass" covered up by the back seat ?
>>
>> Idiot.
>
>Obviously it wasn't completely covered up because the first bullet that struck him did so high
>on his back.

Backi? Or Neck?

[Ben Holmes]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 05:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:


So, according to Bugliosi, it was this "oval" shape that was
"virtually conclusive evidence" of an SBT?

Chickenshit is TERRIFIED of this simple honest question. He knows
that Bugliosi was a moron if he truly thought this... yet you can't
get Chickenshit to publicly acknowledge that Bugliosi said this.

It's a simple "Yes" or "No" question, and Chickenshit cannot cite
where he has EVER answered it. (Without immediately denying it.)

So it's going to keep getting asked until Chickenshit answers it.

[Ben Holmes]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 9:29:49?AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:24:27?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>>> Spanked again. These liars can't look at things correctly. Of
>>> course, that's what liars do.
>>
>> This FBI report said that Western Cartridge was selling ammo to the Italian government during WW 2.
>> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/WH_Vol26_62-ammo-production.gif
>>
>> It's corroborated by the letter to Galanor saying that regular production ended in 1944, the same year the US entered the European theater.
>> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/ammo-production.jpg
>>
>> At that point, no more selling arms to the Italians. And there's no evidence that there were any production runs between 1944 and 1954.
>>
>> Four production runs of one million rounds each were made in 1954 for the Department of Defense ( at the request of the CIA, who were forbidden to buy arms by law and had to get them through the DOD ) and there is no evidence that any other production runs were made after that.
>>
>> There was nothing "recently made" or "manufactures such ammuntition currently" about the ammunition.
>> Most of it was made during WW II with special production for the CIA in 1954.
>>
>> Two million rounds of that CIA ammo was sold to private gun dealers.
>> What happened to the CIA's other two million rounds ?
>>
>> They claimed the bullets that killed Kennedy came from that production run of 1954.
>> The Warren Commission failed to identify the source of the ammuntion because the odds were 50-50 those bullets came from the CIA.
>
>Why does it even matter what production run Oswald bought his ammo from?

BECAUSE THE WARREN COMMISSION LIED ABOUT IT!


And you can't publicly acknowledge that fact.

[Ben Holmes]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 03:03:31 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:


>Celebrate the small victories, Bud.
>
>Within a few days, we’ve gotten Gil down to 50% from 100% certainty:
>https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/gQF-VMCO_VY/m/xk5qhCr2AAAJ
>“Did you get that Bud ? It was CIA ammunition that killed Kennedy.”
>
>Only 50% more to go! Of course, as we approach the goal, attaining it gets harder and harder… like a mass approaching the speed of light.

This is what you need to answer, Huckster:

Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the
Texas School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end
of World War II. The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have
been at least 20 years old, making it extremely unreliable.

Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American
ammunition recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which
manufactures such ammunition currently. In tests with the same kind of
ammunition, experts fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than
100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)

The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't
document it's claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was
still currently made. Their own documentation referred to a batch of
ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694 pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.

It's now incumbent on any believer to PRODUCE A CITATION TO CURRENTLY
(as of 1964) PRODUCED WESTERN CARTRIDGE AMMO in the relevant caliber.

No one ever has... no one ever will.

The Warren Commission lied.

Run coward Huckster... RUN!!!

As believers do...

EVERY

SINGLE

TIME!

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 09:47:14 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:10:07?PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:45:57?AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 10:29:47?AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>>>> Oswald only needed three to kill JFK. Had he been a top notch marksman, one would have sufficed.
>>> Funny how the FBI fired 27 rounds from that same rifle and could not match Oswald's performance.
>>> 27 rounds an never hit what they were aiming at.
>> Looks like they hit quite the target quite a bit. 15 times out of 27
>> shots, at speed, and with a rifle they were unfamiliar with.
>>> Funny how three MASTER riflemen fired 18 rounds from that same rifle and couldn't match his performance.
>>> 18 rounds and never hit the head area of the target.
>>> https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle-tests/
>> Who said that they were aiming at the head? CE 582 is the
>> first target. It was the closest target, and the one that the the
>> shooters had the most time to line up. Not coincidentally, it
>> also features the tightest grouping of the three targets. This
>> grouping shows where the shooters were actually aiming: they
>> were aiming for the center of mass of the target, not the head.
>>
>> The idea that they or Oswald or anyone else were aiming for
>> the "head area" is purely your own invention.
>>

Logical fallacy deleted.

[John Corbett]

WOW! That means I have a 50-50 chance of winning the lottery. Either I will or I won't. I'm only
going to buy one ticket though. Buying more won't improve my odds. It will still be 50-50.

[Ben Holmes]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>WOW! That means I have a 50-50 chance of winning the lottery. Either I will or I won't. I'm only
>going to buy one ticket though. Buying more won't improve my odds. It will still be 50-50.

Watch, and pay attention folks - if you want to see how morons
think...