CONSPIRACY KOOKS RUN AMOK:
JAMES DiEUGENIO (ANOTHER KOOK RUNNING AMOK):
PALAMARA, BUGLIOSI, AND HORNE:
MORE MISC. POSTS:
A CONSPIRACY KOOK NAMED CHRIS MESSNER SAID:
>>> "Mr. "von Pein" [sic; sigh]...cannot even tell his real name." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN (OR IS IT ME?) SAID:
What in the world makes you think something really stupid like this?
Let me guess -- Lenny Osanic?
KOOK MESSNER SAID:
>>> "Like Mr. Bugliosi[,] he [DVP] seems to be caught in the spider network of his own fabrications." <<<
You're silly. Very, very silly. Name ONE thing Bugliosi "fabricated"?
You won't be able to name ONE.
On the other hand, I can name many things that have been "fabricated"
by you conspiracy kooks. Here's a small sampling right off the top of
my head (there are hundreds more, of course):
1.) Oswald was just an innocent "patsy" and did not kill JFK.
2.) Dave Ferrie plotted to kill JFK.
3.) Guy Banister plotted to kill JFK.
4.) Clay Shaw plotted to kill JFK.
5.) Malcolm Wallace killed JFK.
6.) William Greer killed JFK.
7.) Secret Service agent George Hickey accidentally shot and killed
8.) Secret Service agent Henry Rybka was told to "stand down" at Love
9.) The motorcade route was changed at the "last minute".
10.) Jack Ruby was let in to the DPD basement in order to kill Oswald.
11.) The Warren Commission "covered up" the truth about JFK's death.
12.) JFK was shot by a "triangulation of crossfire", featuring 6
gunshots and 3 gunmen (Oliver Stone's theory).
13.) JFK's body was stolen and his wounds altered at Walter Reed
before the autopsy (David Lifton).
14.) JFK's body was altered by Dr. James J. Humes at Bethesda before
the autopsy (Doug Horne).
15.) There were two separate brain examinations, one on a brain that
wasn't JFK's (Doug Horne).
16.) The Zapruder Film has been altered (Doug Horne and gobs of other
17.) The Zapruder Film has been "wholly fabricated" (James Fetzer).
18.) JFK's autopsy photos and X-rays have been altered/faked.
19.) A man with an umbrella IN PLAIN SIGHT ON ELM STREET fired a
poisoned dart into the neck of President Kennedy (in front of HUNDREDS
OF WITNESSES AND MANY CAMERAS).
20.) A man with an umbrella IN PLAIN SIGHT ON ELM STREET was
"signalling" to his co-conspirators by "pumping" his rain-shielding
device up and down (in front of HUNDREDS OF WITNESSES AND MANY
21.) JFK faked his own death (Brian David Andersen).
22.) The "backyard photos" have been faked.
23.) Lyndon Baines Johnson had Kennedy killed.
24.) Governor John Connally was involved in arranging things so that
JFK would be able to drive by the "kill zone" on Elm Street (Doug
Horne, et al).
25.) John Connally possibly whipped a pistol out of his ankle holster
and shot the President (Gil Jesus; no, really, Jesus actually put that
theory on the table a year or two ago).
26.) The DPD actually killed Lee Harvey Oswald (by finishing him off
in the DPD office area after Ruby fired one shot into his belly).
27.) The Parkland Hospital doctors actually killed Lee Harvey Oswald
(by allowing him to die on the operating table, instead of saving his
28.) CE399 was planted by Jack Ruby at Parkland Hospital.
29.) CE399 was planted by ________ at Parkland Hospital.
30.) CE399 was substituted for the real bullet that Darrell Tomlinson
found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
31.) More silly theories here -- http://google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/5ac4a7c8a086bb36
32.) And more here (57 total) -- http://google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/43e50295440e48b0
Now, Chris, what was it you were saying about "fabrications"?
Talk about pot and kettle.
MIKE WILLIAMS (WHO IS NOT A CONSPIRACY KOOK) SAID:
>>> "David, Please do not forget to include Messner's most recent offering: The "3 black men" and Jack Dougherty were on the 5th floor as part of the conspiracy." <<<
Of course, as I said above, there are literally hundreds of additional
hunks of silliness that I could add to any such list of things that
have been "fabricated" by conspiracy theorists.
Another one that just came to mind after I saw Mike's last post:
A few years ago, a kook named Donald C. Willis (at the acj "Pigpen")
postulated that -- get this kids -- DANNY ARCE (an 18-year-old TSBD
worker) was the person who killed JFK. And--are you ready?--Arce
evidently did it from the WEST side of the FIFTH FLOOR.
And then--is somebody holding you up?--Willis goes on to say that the
other co-conspirators (which included ALL of the men who were on the
fifth floor at 12:30--Williams, Norman, and Jarman) planted evidence
on the EAST SIDE of the SIXTH floor in order to frame Oswald. (A
DIFFERENT floor entirely from where Arce committed the murder!)
Also--get the smelling salts for this one--Willis The Weirdo theorizes
that Bonnie Ray Williams, a few minutes before Arce blew JFK's head
off, was waving a rifle out of a window on the FIFTH floor in order to
ATTRACT ATTENTION to Oswald's window, which (of course) was located on
the SIXTH floor.
To read still more about Don Willis' situation comedy regarding the
evil fifth-floor Depository assassins, go here:
As Vince Bugliosi said on Page 507 of "Reclaiming History" ---- "I
know that conspiracy theorists have a sweet tooth for silliness, but
is there absolutely nothing that is too silly for their palate?"
CHRIS MESSNER THE KOOK SAID:
>>> "So tell us your real name?" <<<
Hint: Check the name attached to every post I make.
But I imagine you require a birth certificate, right?
No, wait. That won't cut it. A birth certificate could always be
"altered" and/or "faked" too. Everything is always fake in the world
of conspiracy-happy kooks. So, I guess I'm SOL when it comes to
proving who I am. ~sigh~
>>> "What is your identity?" <<<
Aren't you repeating yourself, kook? See last answer.
MESSNER CONTINUES HIS GRILLING WITH (SANS THE HOT LIGHTS
AND DRIPPING WATER, THANK HEAVEN):
>>> "Where do you live?" <<<
DVP (SWEATING BULLETS, EVEN THOUGH CHRIS
ISN'T UTILIZING HOT LIGHTS) SAID:
Langley, Virginia. (Where else?)
Now, when can I expect the next 10 questions of your inquisition,
TONY FRATINI SAID:
>>> "Jim DiEugenio knows a phenomenal amount about the assassination of JFK - he, like David [Von Pein], is a true scholar re everything JFK. Most of us, especially myself, are armchair amateurs when it comes to comparing to the knowledge that someone like Jim or David possess. I enjoy reading about what BOTH of them have to say - I, for one, am very grateful for the excellent JFK material that David has on his web site - it truly is remarkable. However, please do not - under any circumstances - try to diminish the work done by Jim DiEugenio in terms of asking deep probing questions re the JFK assassination as well as other topics. The debate that I referred to [between DiEugenio and John McAdams in September and Ocober 2009] was very informative and civil. Len [Osanic] allowed no interjection or talking over one another and gave both debaters plenty of time to put their points across. A debate between Jim and David would be incredible because EACH person has an incredible knowledge base that puts most of us to shame. Thought provoking questions allows one to go off and do private research to see why there is so much conflict in this case. In regards to the so-called "bags"--Jim is absolutely correct - read the WC testimonies yourself - Frazier and his sister couldn't identify the "correct" bag. .... Now you know that when one encounters a crime scene, you do not touch anything and photograph the scene--correct? So where was the rifle bag in a photograph taken by the crime scene investigators? I am still looking for one." <<<
About the paper bag:
It's certainly true that there is no photo of the paper bag in the
Sniper's Nest. And if the DPD had to do it over again, I think we can
all agree that they would have certainly photographed that bag in that
Nest before anybody picked the damn thing up off the floor.
But, then too, we must look at that great thing called "THE TOTALITY
OF THE EVIDENCE". And the "totality" of the evidence with respect to
the paper bag specifically is certainly telling any reasonable person
that the brown bag in evidence (CE142) is the very same bag that was
taken into the Book Depository Building by Lee Harvey Oswald on the
morning of 11/22/63.
That "totality" includes:
1.) Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle BOTH saw Lee Oswald with a large-
ish brown paper bag that morning (November 22).
2.) Oswald's prints (a palmprint and a fingerprint) were found on the
CE142 paper bag after the assassination.
3.) A brown viscose fiber consistent with the blanket from Ruth
Paine's garage was found inside the CE142 bag. And that same blanket
was known to be the place where Oswald stored his rifle prior to
4.) Oswald lied to the police about taking ANY large type bag into
work that day. (And is it more reasonable to think Oswald, the accused
assassin, was telling lies about the bag or people like Buell Wesley
Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle? But don't ask Jim DiEugenio that
question. Because what you'll get is an answer that is totally
So, even without a picture of the bag in the Sniper's Nest, it's quite
clear to me (as it should be to all reasonable individuals of Planet
Earth) that the bag with OSWALD'S PRINTS on it (CE142) was, in fact,
the bag that Frazier and Randle saw in Oswald's hands on November 22,
And lots of other "totality" concerning Oswald's Carcano rifle tells a
reasoned-thinking person that CE142 was the bag that Oswald used to
carry his rifle into work on the day he killed the President with it.
RE: JIM DiEUGENIO:
I will admit that I am not nearly as well-versed in several aspects of
the JFK case as Mr. DiEugenio is. And one of those areas is "New
Orleans and Jim Garrison", which is an area where DiEugenio excels--no
doubt about that.
But even though Jim D. has far more knowledge than I about various
aspects of the New Orleans and Garrison subjects, I am still very
confident in saying the following (and I'll just do a bit of copying-
and-pasting at this point, because these words from 2009 certainly
still apply now; and these comments actually can be applied to not
only the so-called "New Orleans plot", but also to many other theories
and purported "conspirators" relating to JFK's assassination too):
"Even if we were to make the assumption (just for the sake of
this particular discussion, although I'm not conceding this to be a
true fact at all) that Lee Oswald WAS acquainted with the various "New
Orleans" characters that Jim DiEugenio thinks LHO was acquainted with
in the summer of 1963 (e.g., Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, and Guy
Banister).....that would still be a million miles away from proving
that ANY of those New Orleans characters had ANY INVOLVEMENT, IN ANY
WAY, WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY IN DALLAS ON NOVEMBER
"And the reason the above paragraph is the truth is because
(once Perry Russo's lie is tossed aside, as it must be) there isn't a
shred of evidence that CONNECTS any of those New Orleans individuals
to the planning and/or carrying out of the murder of John F. Kennedy
in Dallas, Texas. No evidence whatsoever.
"Everything Lee Harvey Oswald did on 11/21/63 and 11/22/63
indicates that he was a LONE ASSASSIN in Dallas. And that fact would
still be true even IF Oswald had been pals with ALL of the three
previously-named New Orleans-based people (Shaw, Ferrie, and
"In other words -- Where is Jim DiEugenio's (or anyone's) BRIDGE
and/or UMBILICAL CORD that allows conspiracy theorists to make the
grand leap from this --- LEE HARVEY OSWALD KNEW CLAY SHAW, DAVID
FERRIE, AND GUY BANISTER --- to this --- SHAW, FERRIE, AND BANISTER
WERE CO-CONSPIRATORS IN THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY?
"Given the physical and circumstantial evidence that exists of
ONLY OSWALD'S GUILT in the assassination of JFK, such a monumental
leap of faith like the one suggested above is, to put it bluntly,
monumentally ridiculous." -- David Von Pein; July 31, 2009
MIKE WILLIAMS SAID:
>>> "Seems some time ago I read about a reporter who had a recorder in the plaza. This was not a recording via dictabelt, it was something different. .... From what I understood he started a recorder and had it set down somewhere. I thought by the reflecting pool. But I just vaguely recall reading something about this. Does anyone else recall or know of this?" <<<
You're not losing your mind. There was a reporter who claimed to have
had a tape recording of the gunshots in Dealey Plaza. But his story
doesn't ring true at all. In fact, it's been pretty much proven to be
totally bogus and false (as we'll see in a minute via the book quotes
The reporter's name is Travis Linn, and he worked for WFAA-Radio at
the time of the assassination in 1963. Linn said he heard the sound of
three gunshots on the tape, but the recording was accidentally erased
right after Linn (and Linn only) supposedly heard the three shots.
Vincent Bugliosi discusses Linn in "Reclaiming History". Here are the
pertinent excerpts (which appear as a lengthy footnote on Page 155 of
the book's endnotes on CD-ROM):
"Author Gerald Posner tells of yet another alleged audiotape of
the assassination, and cites it as confirmation for his conclusion
that only three shots were fired in Dealey Plaza. Posner said that he
had heard a rumor in Dallas that a former reporter for Dallas radio
WFAA, Travis Linn, had an audio recording of the shooting in Dealey
"Posner contacted Linn in 1992 and Linn told him the following
story. He said that since he was covering the Trade Mart that day, he
asked an associate of his to take a small portable tape recorder to
Dealey Plaza and set it down on top of a column near the reflective
pool close to the corner of Houston and Elm to pick up the sound of
the motorcade going by.
"Since the associate was going to be there anyway, why Linn
wouldn’t just have him hold it in his hand, and closer to the street,
is not known. Also, why wouldn’t Linn want his associate to try to
pick up the sound of the motorcade on Main, where the crowds were much
larger? In any event, after the shooting, Linn went to Dealey Plaza
and found that his associate had left, but the recorder was still
"He played the tape back at the station and heard three shots on
it, but while he was starting to duplicate it, his news director sent
him out to Oswald’s apartment. He yelled out to his colleagues, “Don’t
erase that tape,” but said when he got back “the tape had been
erased.” (Posner, Case Closed, pp.243–245)
"Apart from telling his story for the first time almost thirty
years later, and the absence of any corroborative evidence that what
Linn said took place, the story, on its face, seemed somewhat unlikely
to me. I later found out that Sixth Floor Museum curator Gary Mack,
who has no visceral opposition to far-out stories as long as they’re
not fraudulent, had proved the story was false.
"When Linn told Mack the story around 1989, Mack told me he
interviewed Walter Evans, Linn’s news director at the time of the
assassination and Evans just laughed, saying it never happened and he
hadn’t even heard about it before. Mack also spoke to Pierce Allman,
the station’s program director at the time, who told Mack he had never
heard it either. “Nor,” Mack wrote, “did any other reporter working in
Dallas at the time at WFAA or elsewhere that I have been able to learn
about. Something like that would have been known by others in the
newsroom who would long remember the great story that got away.”
"Mack then interviewed the son of A. J. L’Hoste, the WFAA-TV
photographer Linn supposedly asked to record the motorcade. He told
Mack his late father filmed the motorcade on Main Street, not Dealey
Plaza, and had never heard of Linn’s story. Indeed, L’Hoste’s film,
shot about nine blocks east of Dealey Plaza, appears without sound in
the WFAA-TV videotapes recorded on November 22, 1963.
"Finally, Mack looked at the Elsie Dorman film, which picks up
the area where the tape recorder was supposedly left, and saw no such
recorder. (Posting to the Internet by Gary Mack, August 8, 1998;
Telephone interview of Gary Mack by author on August 18, 2005)."
I'll also add this note --- Travis Linn can be heard providing a
variety of live news reports on WFAA-Radio in Dallas throughout the
weekend of JFK's assassination, including the afternoon of November
22nd. And nowhere in any of his radio reports does he mention a thing
about any tape recording of the gunshots.
Now, you'd think if Linn had heard these shots on an audio tape, that
would be a pretty nice scoop and a big EXCLUSIVE story to tell America
via his position as an on-air reporter for WFAA-Radio. Instead, we
heard nothing that weekend from Linn about any tape that supposedly
recorded the sound of the gunshots in Dealey Plaza.
BTW, if you'd like to hear the voice of Travis Linn, click the
following link, which is a portion of WFAA's live 11/22/63 radio
coverage of the aftermath of President Kennedy's assassination. At the
21:30 mark of this audio file, Linn can be heard reporting from Love
Field just after LBJ took off in Air Force One:
>>> "Even though [Travis] Linn's fabrication was to help prove only 3 shots, it is a perfect example of some "witness" gunning for his 15 minutes of fame, regarding the assassination. The problem is, many others have done this kind of thing and the fabrication is usually used to help corroborate some conspiracy story. The bigger problem is, many CT's rely on these lying "witnesses" and their fabrications." <<<
Indeed. In fact, in this Travis Linn fabrication, we've got author
Gerald Posner falling for it--hook, line, and sinker. And that doesn't
help Gerald's credibility any.
Here are some passages from Posner's 1993 book, "Case Closed",
regarding the Travis Linn story:
"The final piece of the acoustical puzzle over the number of
shots fired at Dealey Plaza is available now in the confirmation of a
story that has long been rumored in Dallas. Since the assassination,
local media gossip had it that a journalist had recorded the sounds of
Dealey on November 22 and that later the recording was accidentally
"The author [Gerald Posner, that is] finally located the
reporter, Travis Linn, now a professor of journalism. He had always
declined previous interviews because "I didn't want to be the subject
of twenty thousand telephone calls." But despite his reluctance, he
finally agreed to tell, for the first time publicly, the story of the
only sound recording known to have been made of the assassination.
"[Quoting Travis Linn:] "I was a reporter for WFAA radio...which
was an ABC and NBC affiliate. As we were making our plans for the day,
I was scheduled to go to the Trade Mart, where I supposed to do radio
pool on the speech. I asked one of the TV guys, A.J. L'Hoste, if he
would take one of our portable tape recorders up to Dealey Plaza, as
he was going up there, and I asked him to set it down on top of a
column near the reflective pool at the corner of Houston and Elm. ....
It would get the natural sound of the motorcade going by. I was at the
Trade Mart when the shooting occurred. .... Finally, we shut down
after Kennedy's death had been announced, and I caught a ride up to
Dealey. .... I looked around and found the tape [recorder] on top of
one of those pedestals. You couldn't really even see it, as the
pedestals are tall, the tape recorder is pretty small, and you would
have to look for it. And no one was looking for anything there after
the pandemonium of the shooting." [End Linn Quotes.]
"Linn said the German-manufactured recorder was a battery-driven
professional unit. It was an early version of a cassette recorder,
which had to be rewound manually with a crank. In order to play it on
the air, it had to be transferred to a reel-to-reel tape machine.
"[Quoting Linn again:] "So, I took it back to the station and
dubbed it onto reel-to-reel in our beeper room, which is where we took
in phone reports and production. And while I was in the process of
dubbing it, I was called by my news director to go out, with a TV guy,
to Lee Harvey Oswald's apartment. So I yelled, 'Don't erase that
tape.' When I got back, the tape had been erased. The way it worked is
you got the cassettes, and after you dubbed out of those little
cartridges, you then bulk-erased the cartridges and went on to another
assignment. And the reel-to-reel was not bulk-erased, but had been
recorded over with so many incoming feeds that you could not find
anything but little snatches of crowd noises." [End Linn Quotes.]
"When asked if he heard the sounds of shots on the tape when he
first played it back, Linn had no hesitation. [Quoting Linn:] "When I
was dubbing it, I did hear three shots. I can tell you without any
doubt that there were three shots and they were rifle shots. I know
rifles and pistols. There is no question about those sounds. They were
huge over the crowd noise. You've heard a rifle. A rifle fired in that
square makes quite a noise. The first two, my recollection is, were
closer together, and there was a slightly longer pause until the third
one, as if the guy hurried his shots, and then said, 'No, I am going
to aim this time.' " [End Linn Quotes.]
"Asked why he had never come forward, Linn said, "Others knew
about it at the station. But I was the only one that heard the shots.
That's why I figured, 'Let's just forget about it.' In those days
after the assassination, the stories were coming in so quick, just
bang, bang, bang, that there was no time to think about it. [DVP
INTERJECTION: HUH??!! NO TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT, TRAVIS??!! ARE YOU
NUTS??!!] You just don't have time to do thumbsuckers and think of
what might have been. [REPRISE: HUH?! WTF??] I knew within a week that
if I had it, that it was very important. But I didn't have it, so what
could I do?" " -- Pages 242-243 of "Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald And
The Assassination Of JFK"
The source notes for the above book excerpts indicate: "Interview with
Travis Linn, April 15, 1992." (Which was, ironically, eighteen years
ago this very day.)
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "So maybe it [common sense] is not that common then?" <<<
DAVID V.P. SAID:
Oh, you're exactly right about that. Common sense is not very common
at all -- particularly amongst JFK-assassination conspiracy theorists.
They have virtually NONE of that human trait. As evidenced by Doug
Horne's insane theories.
If Doug H. had possessed ANY common sense at all during the
formulation of his wild theories about Dr. Humes, Dr. Boswell, the
"Two Brains", and the Z-Film alteration crap, he would have totally
abandoned each and every one of those far-out theories. And that's
because each and every one of those theories defies logic and common
sense -- not to mention the TOTALITY OF EVIDENCE in this case.
>>> "I agree it is silly do try and apply common sense --- "Common sense: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts" (Webster) --- to an event like the assassination which is so complex, unusual and unfamiliar." <<<
The basic core of this case isn't "complex" at all:
Lee Harvey Oswald took his own gun to work and murdered the President
from his (Oswald's) own place of employment. Oswald then shot and
killed a policeman trying to escape.
Simple as can be.
It's only the speculation-laden conspiracy theorists who have managed
to complicate a completely uncomplicated murder case.
Heck, the Dallas Police Department pretty much had the case solved
from Day 1.
And, incredibly, a lot of conspiracists seem to think the DPD wouldn't
have had any desire at all to track down the "real killer(s)" of their
fellow police officer OR the "real killer(s)" of the President of
their own country.
Instead, per the loopy CTers, the cops couldn't care less about
allowing Tippit's AND KENNEDY'S killer(s) to get off scot-free.
Again--common sense. Plain ordinary common sense tells any reasonable
person that the above type of "I Couldn't Care Less" attitude couldn't
possibly have existed in this case -- especially when multiplying that
type of attitude by TWO separate murders, including the murder of a
DALLAS POLICEMAN, who was a friend of a lot of those cops who (per
some CTers) just looked the other way when it came to tracking down
who murdered J.D. Tippit!
no advertising moron.....
> DVP SAID:
> Heck, the Dallas Police Department pretty much had the case solved
> from Day 1.
> And, incredibly, a lot of conspiracists seem to think the DPD wouldn't
> have had any desire at all to track down the "real killer(s)" of their
> fellow police officer OR the "real killer(s)" of the President of
> their own country.
> Instead, per the loopy CTers, the cops couldn't care less about
> allowing Tippit's AND KENNEDY'S killer(s) to get off scot-free.
> Again--common sense. Plain ordinary common sense tells any reasonable
> person that the above type of "I Couldn't Care Less" attitude couldn't
> possibly have existed in this case -- especially when multiplying that
> type of attitude by TWO separate murders, including the murder of a
> DALLAS POLICEMAN, who was a friend of a lot of those cops who (per
> some CTers) just looked the other way when it came to tracking down
> who murdered J.D. Tippit!
> That's insane.
19 of the Dallas Police's convictions have been overturned by DNA
That's 19 suspects accused by the DPD
That's 19 suspects prosecuted by Henry Wade.
That's 19 suspects convicted by Dallas juries on the "evidence".
That's 19 suspects framed for crimes they didn't commit in order to
pad the DA's "statistics"
That's not common sense, that's FACT.
19 out of how many convictions?
> no advertising moron.....