Questions for the self-proclaimed "more knowledgeable one", Hank Sienzant: Question # 9

[Gil Jesus]

There are many questions that I have about this case and I feel compelled to go to a reliable source, the self proclaimed "more knowledgeable" one, Hank Sienzant. I'm sure Hank in his infinite wisdom and knowledge will have no problem answering my questions.

Question # 9 : How did a "Defector" to the Soviet Union get employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis by a company which did Gov't work on U-2 photos ?

[Ben Holmes]

Corbutt's answer: "Nobody knows, nobody cares. It happened."


ROTFLMAO!!!

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 3:34:12 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> There are many questions that I have about this case and I feel compelled to go to a reliable source, the self proclaimed "more knowledgeable" one, Hank Sienzant. I'm sure Hank in his infinite wisdom and knowledge will have no problem answering my questions.
>
> Question # 9 : How did a "Defector" to the Soviet Union get employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis by a company which did Gov't work on U-2 photos ?

Did JCS actually do classified U-2 work? I've seen it alleged ad nauseum, but have never seen a source for this. JCS did do some work for Vought Aircraft, but Vought wasn't involved with the U-2 program.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> There are many questions that I have about this case and I feel compelled to go to a reliable source, the self proclaimed "more knowledgeable" one, Hank Sienzant. I'm sure Hank in his infinite wisdom and knowledge will have no problem answering my questions.
>
> Question # 9 : How did a "Defector" to the Soviet Union get employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis by a company which did Gov't work on U-2 photos ?

By applying.

[Ben Holmes]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:11:33 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:


So, according to Bugliosi, it was this "oval" shape that was
"virtually conclusive evidence" of an SBT?

Chickenshit is TERRIFIED of this simple honest question. He knows
that Bugliosi was a moron if he truly thought this... yet you can't
get Chickenshit to publicly acknowledge that Bugliosi said this.

It's a simple "Yes" or "No" question, and Chickenshit cannot cite
where he has EVER answered it. (Without immediately denying it.)

So it's going to keep getting asked until Chickenshit answers it.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

> There are many questions that I have about this case and I feel compelled to go to a reliable source, the self proclaimed "more knowledgeable" one, Hank Sienzant. I'm sure Hank in his infinite wisdom and knowledge will have no problem answering my questions.
>
> Question # 9 : How did a "Defector" to the Soviet Union get employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis by a company which did Gov't work on U-2 photos ?

By applying.

NEXT!

[Ben Holmes]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:10:51 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Hank Sienzant]

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

> There are many questions that I have about this case and I feel compelled to go to a reliable source, the self proclaimed "more knowledgeable" one, Hank Sienzant. I'm sure Hank in his infinite wisdom and knowledge will have no problem answering my questions.
>
> Question # 9 : How did a "Defector" to the Soviet Union get employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis by a company which did Gov't work on U-2 photos ?

John Graef of Jaguars-Chiles-Stovall testified to the process. Oswald was unemployed, and the Texas Unemployment Commission referred Oswald to them as possible candidate. Oswald lied to unemployment, saying he was recently discharged from the Marines. He was interviewed by Graef, made a good impression, and hired as a trainee.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/graef.htm

Bob Stovall testified to the type of work they did for the Dept of Defense, and added that Oswald had no access to that area:
== quote ==
Mr. JENNER. What does your company do?
Mr. STOVALL. We are in the typographic services. We serve advertising agencies, advertising departments, and the graphic arts industry as a middle supplier for type services. We also produce newspaper mats for duplication throughout the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Do you do any work for any federal agency?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?
Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not, but we do on occasion. We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of Defense as a single unit.
Mr. JENNER. Without disclosing any secrets in that connection or classifications, what is the nature of that work?
Mr. STOVALL Generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and figures. We have no correlation of what they refer to.
Mr. JENNER. It's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land areas or what?
Mr. STOVALL Yes; and some foreign areas, too.
Mr. JENNER. That is, other than continental United States?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes; right.
Mr. JENNER. Was any of this work done in the department or area to which Lee Oswald had access while he was employed by your company?
Mr. STOVALL. Not in the department at all. Whatever secret work we might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view this.
Mr. JENNER. So, anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate Federal agency?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work?
Mr. STOVALL. This is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that your company is at pains to see that no one other than those who are cleared have access to it?
Mr. STOVALL. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that was true while he was working for you?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes. In fact, at such times as we have any secret work going, even at the point of being rude, we see that no one has access to any of this material. I won't say--rude but we strictly enforce it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you make it pretty firm, which is right?
Mr. STOVALL Right.
== unquote ==

Neither Stovall nor Graef ever said JCS worked on the U-2 project in any fashion. It’s merely a supposition by conspiracy theorists.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 20:42:19 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:

You've claimed that the "A.B.C.D." in the Autopsy Report is the
description of the *location* of the large head wound.

Yet you refuse time and time again from QUOTING the preceding
paragraph that describes what this ACTUALLY is. Why is that?

You've also claimed that the prosectors dissected the throat wound.

Why do you continue to refuse to cite any evidence for this?

Why have you CONSISTENTLY run away each time I raise this issue?

Now you've quite stupidly insisted that the bullet entered JFK's back,
and exited the back of his head.

More cowardice, more stupidity, more dishonesty.

Are you proud of yourself?

[Hank Sienzant]

Ben attempts to change the subject to something he pretends I said because he apparently can’t discuss this topic knowledgeably.

He’s reduced to trolling.

[Ben Holmes]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 9:19:46?AM UTC-4, Ben Holmes wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 20:42:19 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
>> <hsie...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> You've claimed that the "A.B.C.D." in the Autopsy Report is the
>> description of the *location* of the large head wound.
>>
>> Yet you refuse time and time again from QUOTING the preceding
>> paragraph that describes what this ACTUALLY is. Why is that?
>>
>> You've also claimed that the prosectors dissected the throat wound.
>>
>> Why do you continue to refuse to cite any evidence for this?
>>
>> Why have you CONSISTENTLY run away each time I raise this issue?
>>
>> Now you've quite stupidly insisted that the bullet entered JFK's back,
>> and exited the back of his head.
>>
>> More cowardice, more stupidity, more dishonesty.
>>
>> Are you proud of yourself?
>

>Ben attempts...

Ben doesn't "attempt." I've succeeded MARVELOUSLY at allowing you to
prove your dishonesty & cowardice.

You frequently make statements you can't support... and run from
obvious lies told by fellow believers.

[Hank Sienzant]

Gil?

Please enlighten me what was incorrect above.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 15:00:48 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:


Huckster?

Please enlighten me what was incorrect below:

[Bud]

Yes, he has to prevent discussion on these issues because he and Gil do not fare too well in them.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

> Yes, he has to prevent discussion ...

You mean, of course, that *YOU* have to refuse to answer:

[Gil Jesus]

On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 11:42:21 PM UTC-4, Hank Sienzant wrote:
> Mr. JENNER. Do you do any work for any federal agency?
> Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
> Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?
> Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not, but we do on occasion. We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of Defense as a single unit.
> Mr. JENNER. Without disclosing any secrets in that connection or classifications, what is the nature of that work?
> Mr. STOVALL Generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and figures. We have no correlation of what they refer to.
> Mr. JENNER. It's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land areas or what?
> Mr. STOVALL Yes; and some foreign areas, too.
> Mr. JENNER. That is, other than continental United States?
> Mr. STOVALL. Yes; right.
> Mr. JENNER. Was any of this work done in the department or area to which Lee Oswald had access while he was employed by your company?
> Mr. STOVALL. Not in the department at all. Whatever secret work we might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view this.
> Mr. JENNER. So, anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate Federal agency?
> Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
> Mr. JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work?
> Mr. STOVALL. This is correct.

That was a lie because Oswald's JCS timesheet for October 16th, just 4 days after he was hired, had him doing work for the Army Map Service.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg

[recip...@gmail.com]

There's a "k" in the middle of your "maspservice." And "mapkervis" looks like it might be
two words, "map kervice". So is it really "army mapservice," or something else entirely?
The combination of handwriting and image quality are bad enough that it's foolish to
place any interpretation with confidence.

Of course, we're talking about Gildo here, and we expect the world of foolishness from
him.

[Gil Jesus]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:04:02 AM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> Of course, we're talking about Gildo here, and we expect the world of foolishness from him.

What exactly is an army "map kervis " ?
It's a capital "S", for Stupid, like you.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 9:07:24 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:04:02 AM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Of course, we're talking about Gildo here, and we expect the world of foolishness from him.

> What exactly is an army "map kervis " ?

You're the guy who claims that it says "army mapservice," failing to
notice the "k" in the middle. You tell us what it's supposed to mean.

> It's a capital "S", for Stupid, like you.

It's definitely a lower case "k." He left an example of his upper case
"S" just below with "Sears." Also, notice that the "a" in "army" and the
"m" in "map" are lower case. It makes no sense that he would write
it like "army map Service"

[Gil Jesus]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:03:59 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> It's definitely a lower case "k." He left an example of his upper case
> "S" just below with "Sears." Also, notice that the "a" in "army" and the
> "m" in "map" are lower case. It makes no sense that he would write
> it like "army map Service"

What is an army map kervis ?
Go smoke your fucking dope and let people who know the case present it.
Loser.

Oswald's timesheets showed that eight times in his tenure at JCS, Oswald did work for the Army Map Service ( AMS ).
( Oct. 16, Nov. 10, Nov. 22, and Dec. 1, 6, and 29 in 1962 and on Feb. 14 and March 25 in 1963 ) ( 23 H 530- 614 )

His supervisor ( Graef ) said that the work they did for the AMS was secret ( 10 H 191 ) and that Oswald had nothing to do with it. The owner of JCS ( Stovall ) verified it. ( 10 H 169 )
Oswald's timesheets proved they both lied.

Not only did the timesheets prove that Graef and Stovall lied, a Document released by the CIA in 1998 under the JFK Records Act
included an interview that author/researcher Edward Jay Epstein did with New York Magazine in 1978.

In that interview, Epstein said that JCS, "was involved with highly classified work for the Army Map Service. It received long lists of names of cities in the Soviet Union, China and Cuba which were typeset
and then returned to the Army Map Service, where they were affixed to maps. THESE MAPS WERE MADE BY AMERICA'S SPY SATELLITES AND U-2 SPY PLANES. Oswald thus had access to lots of cities
that were US Intellignece targets in Russia, Cuba and China." ( NARA # 104-10404-10390, pg. 3 )

Epstein also said that when he and his investgators interviewed the form's former employees, they found that, ALL workers there, including Oswald, had access to ALL parts of the plant. Security
procedures were not strongly enforced." ( ibid. )

Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.

END OF STORY.

I'm going to start calling you Kervis, because you're a fucking idiot.
SMH

[Bud]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:46 PM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:03:59 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It's definitely a lower case "k." He left an example of his upper case
> > "S" just below with "Sears." Also, notice that the "a" in "army" and the
> > "m" in "map" are lower case. It makes no sense that he would write
> > it like "army map Service"
> What is an army map kervis ?
> Go smoke your fucking dope and let people who know the case present it.
> Loser.
>
> Oswald's timesheets showed that eight times in his tenure at JCS, Oswald did work for the Army Map Service ( AMS ).

Aren`t you just assuming that anywhere it says "AMS" it is referring to Army Map Services and not some other company they did work for?

> ( Oct. 16, Nov. 10, Nov. 22, and Dec. 1, 6, and 29 in 1962 and on Feb. 14 and March 25 in 1963 ) ( 23 H 530- 614 )
>
> His supervisor ( Graef ) said that the work they did for the AMS

Not really, he said he *thought* they did work for Army Map Services. Apparently he wasn`t sure. Conspiracy folks don`t understand qualifiers.

>was secret ( 10 H 191 ) and that Oswald had nothing to do with it. The owner of JCS ( Stovall ) verified it. ( 10 H 169 )
> Oswald's timesheets proved they both lied.

Not necessarily. You assume all Army Map Service work would be classified.

The purpose of the AMS was to "The mission was to “collect, catalogue, and store foreign and domestic maps and map information required by the War Department".

https://www.nga.mil/defining-moments/Army_Map_Service.html

No reason to believe all the maps collected were confidential.

> Not only did the timesheets prove that Graef and Stovall lied, a Document released by the CIA in 1998 under the JFK Records Act
> included an interview that author/researcher Edward Jay Epstein did with New York Magazine in 1978.
>
> In that interview, Epstein said that JCS, "was involved with highly classified work for the Army Map Service. It received long lists of names of cities in the Soviet Union, China and Cuba which were typeset
> and then returned to the Army Map Service, where they were affixed to maps. THESE MAPS WERE MADE BY AMERICA'S SPY SATELLITES AND U-2 SPY PLANES. Oswald thus had access to lots of cities
> that were US Intellignece targets in Russia, Cuba and China." ( NARA # 104-10404-10390, pg. 3 )

Now we know what Epstein said. What did he show?

> Epstein also said that when he and his investgators interviewed the form's former employees, they found that, ALL workers there, including Oswald, had access to ALL parts of the plant. Security
> procedures were not strongly enforced." ( ibid. )
>
> Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.

I thought you didn`t speculate.

[recip...@gmail.com]

So, what you say the Epstein said is that the "secret U-2 work' actually consisted of:

1.) JCS was given lists of place names by the Army Corps of Engineers
2.) JCS typeset these into little name tags which were given back to the Army Corps of Engineers
3.) The Army Corps of Engineers affixed these tags on maps that were in part derived from satellite and aerial photagraphy.

That is, the "secret U-2 work" consisted of making little name tags and handing them back to the Army.

And you think that this is somehow super-sensitive?

You're even dumber than I thought.

[Bud]

Yes, why would they need the maps to make the tags?

[Gil Jesus]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 8:54:50 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
>

> That is, the "secret U-2 work" consisted of making little name tags and handing them back to the Army.
>
> And you think that this is somehow super-sensitive?

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, ALL government work involving Cuba was super-sensitive, as was work involving America's enemies Russia and China, moron.
Of course, in your world, name tags of landmarks or cities that the US might target in the event of an attack would not be considered super-sensitive.
How much do you think Castro would pay to know what those nametags said ?

Apparently, the US Army Map Service thought the work was sensitve, they created the standard for security that JCS didn't follow.
Apparently, the JCS employees that Epstein interviewed and the bosses at JCS thought so, too.
What's deemed sensitive doesn't go by YOUR standards, it goes by the standards of the government.
If you have a problem with that, take it up with them.

MR JENNER. Does Jaggers-Childs-Stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work ?
MR GRAEF. Yes, Yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map Service.

They apparently thought the work was so super-senstiive that the supervisor and the company owner lied to the Warren Commission about Oswald's access to it.

MR JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that ?
MR GRAEF No.
( 1 H 191 )

MR JENNER. So anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by a Federal agency ?
MR STOVALL. Yes, sir.
MR JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it NOR ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS WORK ?
MR STOVALL. THIS IS CORRECT.

( 10 H 169 )

Oswald timesheets proved they lied. Oswald and everyone in that building had access to that work. Epstein corroborated those timesheets and the CIA withheld that information from both the Warren Commission and the HSCA. And the bosses at JCS lied to the Commission because they were afraid if the government found out their security was below its requirements, they'd lose their government contracts.

> You're even dumber than I thought.

You see a "K" where there is no K and you're calling me dumb ?
ROFLMAO

Congratulations. You're as much a dumbfuck as Bud and Corbett.

In other words.....YOU LOSE.

[Gil Jesus]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 8:41:24 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> Not really, he said he *thought* they did work for Army Map Services. Apparently he wasn`t sure.

Ok, so they really didn't do work for the Army Map Service. Thanks for clearing that up.
Why is it on Oswald's timesheet then ?
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg

>> Oswald's timesheets showed that eight times in his tenure at JCS, Oswald did work for the Army Map Service ( AMS ).

>Aren`t you just assuming that anywhere it says "AMS" it is referring to Army Map Services and not some other company they did work for?

Name the other company.

> No reason to believe all the maps collected were confidential.

Do you have evidence they weren't ?

> Now we know what Epstein said. What did he show?

You should be asking why the CIA withheld this information until 1998.

> > Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.
> I thought you didn`t speculate.

I don't. Why else would they have lied ?
Can't you use your regular "reasoning" to figure it out ?

<snicker>

[Bud]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:02:54 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 8:41:24 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > Not really, he said he *thought* they did work for Army Map Services. Apparently he wasn`t sure.
> Ok, so they really didn't do work for the Army Map Service. Thanks for clearing that up.
> Why is it on Oswald's timesheet then ?

Non sequitur.

Graef only *thought* they did work for Army Map Services. That isn`t` him stating it as fact, like you presented it to be.

> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg
> >> Oswald's timesheets showed that eight times in his tenure at JCS, Oswald did work for the Army Map Service ( AMS ).
>
> >Aren`t you just assuming that anywhere it says "AMS" it is referring to Army Map Services and not some other company they did work for?
> Name the other company.

Your idea, your burden. You need to show, not just assume.

> > No reason to believe all the maps collected were confidential.
> Do you have evidence they weren't ?

Why did you remove the link?

> > Now we know what Epstein said. What did he show?
> You should be asking why the CIA withheld this information until 1998.

I asked the right question.

> > > Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.
> > I thought you didn`t speculate.
> I don't.

You just did.

> Why else would they have lied ?

You haven`t showed that they did.

> Can't you use your regular "reasoning" to figure it out ?

Of course, that is why I don`t go where your mind does.

> <snicker>

[Gil Jesus]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:15:01 AM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> > >Aren`t you just assuming that anywhere it says "AMS" it is referring to Army Map Services and not some other company they did work for?
> > Name the other company.
> Your idea, your burden. You need to show, not just assume.

No YOU said it may have been another company. It's YOUR burden to show that company.

> > > No reason to believe all the maps collected were confidential.
> > Do you have evidence they weren't ?

> Why did you remove the link?

What link ? You assholes don't post links.

> > > Now we know what Epstein said. What did he show?
> > You should be asking why the CIA withheld this information until 1998.
> I asked the right question.

So no response.

> > > > Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.
> > > I thought you didn`t speculate.
> > I don't.
> You just did.

No I didn't. Oswald timesheets and Epstein's investigation proved they lied
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/NARA-104-10404-10390-pg.-3.png

> > Why else would they have lied ?
> You haven`t showed that they did.

MR JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that ?
MR GRAEF No.
( 1 H 191 )

MR JENNER. So anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by a Federal agency ?
MR STOVALL. Yes, sir.
MR JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it NOR ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS WORK ?
MR STOVALL. THIS IS CORRECT.

( 10 H 169 )

Oswald's timesheet proves those were lies.
https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg

> > Can't you use your regular "reasoning" to figure it out ?
> Of course, that is why I don`t go where your mind does.

Because you're an idiot who refuses to look at the evidence.
And when you back a lie, you become a liar.

[Bud]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 4:50:09 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 8:54:50 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > That is, the "secret U-2 work" consisted of making little name tags and handing them back to the Army.
> >
> > And you think that this is somehow super-sensitive?
> During the Cuban Missile Crisis, ALL government work involving Cuba was super-sensitive, as was work involving America's enemies Russia and China, moron.
> Of course, in your world, name tags of landmarks or cities that the US might target in the event of an attack would not be considered super-sensitive.
> How much do you think Castro would pay to know what those nametags said ?

Your assumptions and speculations aren`t evidence. Your source said this....

"It received long lists of names of cities in the Soviet Union, China and Cuba which were typeset and then returned to the Army Map Service, where they were affixed to maps."

That`s it, just the names of cities, names that probably could be found on any over the counter purchased map.

Your speculation that they were targeted locations is just that, speculation.

> Apparently, the US Army Map Service thought the work was sensitve, they created the standard for security that JCS didn't follow.

You assume any work done for Army Map Services was confidential.

> Apparently, the JCS employees that Epstein interviewed and the bosses at JCS thought so, too.
> What's deemed sensitive doesn't go by YOUR standards, it goes by the standards of the government.
> If you have a problem with that, take it up with them.

You haven`t shown there was a problem.

> MR JENNER. Does Jaggers-Childs-Stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work ?
> MR GRAEF. Yes, Yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map Service.
>
> They apparently thought the work was so super-senstiive that the supervisor and the company owner lied to the Warren Commission about Oswald's access to it.
>
> MR JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that ?
> MR GRAEF No.
> ( 1 H 191 )

What he doesn`t say is that *all* the work done for Army Map Services was confidential.

> MR JENNER. So anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by a Federal agency ?
> MR STOVALL. Yes, sir.
> MR JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it NOR ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS WORK ?
> MR STOVALL. THIS IS CORRECT.
> ( 10 H 169 )

You assume what Oswald worked on was confidential. He may have just been working on the sheets the labels would be printed on.

> Oswald timesheets proved they lied.

You haven`t shown that.

> Oswald and everyone in that building had access to that work.

Just a rumor.

> Epstein corroborated those timesheets and the CIA withheld that information from both the Warren Commission and the HSCA. And the bosses at JCS lied to the Commission because they were afraid if the government found out their security was below its requirements, they'd lose their government contracts.

Crackpot speculation.

> > You're even dumber than I thought.
> You see a "K" where there is no K and you're calling me dumb ?
> ROFLMAO
>
> Congratulations. You're as much a dumbfuck as Bud and Corbett.
>
> In other words.....YOU LOSE.

You`re as delusional as Ben.

[Bud]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:27:10 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:15:01 AM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> > > >Aren`t you just assuming that anywhere it says "AMS" it is referring to Army Map Services and not some other company they did work for?
> > > Name the other company.
> > Your idea, your burden. You need to show, not just assume.
> No YOU said it may have been another company. It's YOUR burden to show that company.

Wrong. Your idea that AMS is Army Map Services everywhere "AMS" appears is not the default that needs to be disproven, it is your assumption that that is the case that needs to be supported.

When you make a "this means this" declaration it is up to you to establish "this" can only mean "this", and not anything else.

> > > > No reason to believe all the maps collected were confidential.
> > > Do you have evidence they weren't ?
>
> > Why did you remove the link?
> What link ? You assholes don't post links.

Here is the post you are responding to. Honest people will have no problem finding the link that no longer exists in your response...

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/6O8pnSTEFB4/m/mB3sJqauBgAJ

> > > > Now we know what Epstein said. What did he show?
> > > You should be asking why the CIA withheld this information until 1998.
> > I asked the right question.
> So no response.

No response to your non sequitur.

> > > > > Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.
> > > > I thought you didn`t speculate.
> > > I don't.
> > You just did.
> No I didn't. Oswald timesheets and Epstein's investigation proved they lied

No, stupid, *you* conclude this must mean they lied. *Then* you go on to speculate that the reason they lied is to protect their government contract.

> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg
> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/NARA-104-10404-10390-pg.-3.png
> > > Why else would they have lied ?
> > You haven`t showed that they did.
> MR JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that ?
> MR GRAEF No.
> ( 1 H 191 )
>
> MR JENNER. So anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by a Federal agency ?
> MR STOVALL. Yes, sir.
> MR JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it NOR ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS WORK ?
> MR STOVALL. THIS IS CORRECT.
> ( 10 H 169 )

The confidential work.

> Oswald's timesheet proves those were lies.
> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/10.16.62-ams.jpg

This doesn`t establish that this is confidential work.

> > > Can't you use your regular "reasoning" to figure it out ?
> > Of course, that is why I don`t go where your mind does.
> Because you're an idiot who refuses to look at the evidence.

The evidence isn`t the problem, it is what you mind does to it that is.

> And when you back a lie, you become a liar.

You delude yourself that your assumptions are fact.

[Gil Jesus]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:28:12 AM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
< a lot of bullshit without evidence >

In a document suppressed by the Warren Commission, a document that never made it into the 26 volumes of evidence, there is the FBI interview with Jack Leslie Bowen.

On December 8, 1963 an Oswald co-worker at JCS, Bowen was interviewed by the FBI.
Bowen was previously employed as the assisant art director for the firm.

He told the FBI that he was presnet in the office of Ray Hawkins, foreman of the photo department,
"when Oswald was explaining Russian symbols on maps the firm was preparing for the United States Army."
( CD 205, pg. 470 )

The evidence indicates that Oswald had access to sensitive work performed by JCS for the Army Map Service.

Your stupid comments don't mean shit.
If you can't prove otherwise, then shut the fuck up.
Idiot.

[Bud]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 8:08:49 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:28:12 AM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> < a lot of bullshit without evidence >

< running commencing >

> In a document suppressed by the Warren Commission, a document that never made it into the 26 volumes of evidence,

But did exist in the material they made public.

> there is the FBI interview with Jack Leslie Bowen.

This guy?

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/pseudodb.php?id=BOWEN_JACK

> On December 8, 1963 an Oswald co-worker at JCS, Bowen was interviewed by the FBI.
> Bowen was previously employed as the assisant art director for the firm.
>
> He told the FBI that he was presnet in the office of Ray Hawkins, foreman of the photo department,
> "when Oswald was explaining Russian symbols on maps the firm was preparing for the United States Army."
> ( CD 205, pg. 470 )
>
> The evidence indicates that Oswald had access to sensitive work performed by JCS for the Army Map Service.

Hawkins didn`t recall what the map was. But of course you cherry pick, the information from these witness you like is reliable, when they give information harmful to your ideas they are lying.

> Your stupid comments don't mean shit.
> If you can't prove otherwise, then shut the fuck up.

I don`t need to prove anything, these are your ideas, you need to firm them up. That you are willing to assume things the evidence doesn`t establish doesn`t mean shit.

> Idiot.

[Hank Sienzant]

Granting that’s an “S” for the sake of argument, show that this work was secret or confidential. As Stovall explained,
== quote ==

> > Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?

> > Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not…
== unquote ==

“Most of it is not…”

So if this not secret or confidential, then there’s no contradiction between Stovall’s testimony and Oswald’s timesheet.

You are assuming what you need to prove. Aren’t you?

Go ahead, prove it. We’ll wait.

[Hank Sienzant]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 8:08:49 AM UTC-5, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:28:12 AM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> < a lot of bullshit without evidence >
>
> In a document suppressed by the Warren Commission, a document that never made it into the 26 volumes of evidence, there is the FBI interview with Jack Leslie Bowen.
>
> On December 8, 1963 an Oswald co-worker at JCS, Bowen was interviewed by the FBI.
> Bowen was previously employed as the assisant art director for the firm.
>
> He told the FBI that he was presnet in the office of Ray Hawkins, foreman of the photo department,
> "when Oswald was explaining Russian symbols on maps the firm was preparing for the United States Army."
> ( CD 205, pg. 470 )
>
> The evidence indicates that Oswald had access to sensitive work performed by JCS for the Army Map Service.

Wait, what?

You are assuming that the work as secret or confidential, not establishing that.

Still awaiting some evidence that the map was secret or confidential.

If all you got is an assumption, then the below applies most readily to you:

>
> Your stupid comments don't mean shit.
> If you can't prove otherwise, then shut the fuck up.
> Idiot.

We’re awaiting something besides an assumption on your part.

[Hank Sienzant]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:46 PM UTC-4, Gil Jesus wrote:

> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:03:59 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It's definitely a lower case "k." He left an example of his upper case
> > "S" just below with "Sears." Also, notice that the "a" in "army" and the
> > "m" in "map" are lower case. It makes no sense that he would write
> > it like "army map Service"
> What is an army map kervis ?
> Go smoke your fucking dope and let people who know the case present it.
> Loser.
>
> Oswald's timesheets showed that eight times in his tenure at JCS, Oswald did work for the Army Map Service ( AMS ).
> ( Oct. 16, Nov. 10, Nov. 22, and Dec. 1, 6, and 29 in 1962 and on Feb. 14 and March 25 in 1963 ) ( 23 H 530- 614 )
>
> His supervisor ( Graef ) said that the work they did for the AMS was secret ( 10 H 191 ) and that Oswald had nothing to do with it. The owner of JCS ( Stovall ) verified it. ( 10 H 169 )

No, Stovall clarified it. He said some of that work was secret, confidential, or classified, but “most of it is not”.

Most of it is not.

Stop assuming what you need to prove.

> Oswald's timesheets proved they both lied.

No, you are assuming ALL the work was secret, confidential, or classified.
You haven’t shown that, and Stovall’s testimony establishes they did work for the AMS that was not secret, confidential, nor classified.
== quote ==

> > Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?

> > Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not…
== unquote ==

“Most of it is not…”


>

> Not only did the timesheets prove that Graef and Stovall lied, a Document released by the CIA in 1998 under the JFK Records Act
> included an interview that author/researcher Edward Jay Epstein did with New York Magazine in 1978.
>
> In that interview, Epstein said that JCS, "was involved with highly classified work for the Army Map Service. It received long lists of names of cities in the Soviet Union, China and Cuba which were typeset
> and then returned to the Army Map Service, where they were affixed to maps. THESE MAPS WERE MADE BY AMERICA'S SPY SATELLITES AND U-2 SPY PLANES. Oswald thus had access to lots of cities
> that were US Intellignece targets in Russia, Cuba and China." ( NARA # 104-10404-10390, pg. 3 )
>

So you’re citing unsourced hearsay from Epstein as evidence. Next.

And that wasn’t all that JCS did, as Stovall testified. There was work for the AMS that didn’t fall under the umbrella of secret, confidential, or classified. And Bowen’s comments were the maps (not *aerial photos*) were labeled in Russian, which would eliminate photos from U.S spy satellites entirely (unless you think that the Russians had big signs next to each of their cities labeled in Russian, so that the US could read city’s names from their spy satellites).

You think that? I hope not. So explain the contradiction between what Epstein claims, and Bowen’s assertion that the maps (not *aerial photos*) were labeled in Russian. You treat statements that are contradictory as confirmation. That makes no sense.

> Epstein also said that when he and his investgators interviewed the form's former employees, they found that, ALL workers there, including Oswald, had access to ALL parts of the plant. Security
> procedures were not strongly enforced." ( ibid. )

Ok, so if that’s true, then the fault lies with JCS, and doesn’t indicate a conspiracy or coverup of any kind (except for JCS’s failure to enforce the procedures they most likely said they would abide by in a contract they signed with the government).

>
> Graef and Stovall lied to the Warren Commission because they were afraid if the government found out that their security measures were lax, they'd lose their government contracts.

If your assumptions are true. But that has nothing to do with the assassination of JFK, and doesn’t establish a conspiracy.

[NoTrueFlags Here]

Hobbyist Hank is back to fiddle around with something he thinks is not important, despite his wife telling him he's nuts to do so! Nutters are a special kind of Retard!

[Hank Sienzant]

Note all NTF can do is insult me, and ignore the points I made.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:50:09 AM UTC-6, Gil Jesus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 8:54:50 PM UTC-4, recip...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > That is, the "secret U-2 work" consisted of making little name tags and handing them back to the Army.
> >
> > And you think that this is somehow super-sensitive?
>
> During the Cuban Missile Crisis, ALL government work involving Cuba was super-sensitive, as was work involving America's enemies Russia and China, moron.
> Of course, in your world, name tags of landmarks or cities that the US might target in the event of an attack would not be considered super-sensitive.
> How much do you think Castro would pay to know what those nametags said ?

Neither you nor Epstein have presented any evidence that JCS did any work for anyone
specifically pertaining to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Or even Cuba in general. And Oswald
didn't start at JCS until 1963, anyway. So your point is moot.

> Apparently, the US Army Map Service thought the work was sensitve, they created the standard for security that JCS didn't follow.
> Apparently, the JCS employees that Epstein interviewed and the bosses at JCS thought so, too.
> What's deemed sensitive doesn't go by YOUR standards, it goes by the standards of the government.

There is no guarantee that all of the work JCS did for the military was
classified, nor do we know what classification level any particular job
was. The president of JCS, Stovall, said that most of their government/
military work not classified, so Oswald certainly could have done work
for any government agency, including the Army Map Service, that was
not classified of secret at all.

The Government audits security clearances granted to vendors. Not just
to specific employees, but to the organization as a whole. If JCS were that
lackadaisical about security, they'd have been caught, and either forced to
conform or just loose the classified business. Either way, we would have
known about it by now.

> If you have a problem with that, take it up with them.
>
> MR JENNER. Does Jaggers-Childs-Stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work ?
> MR GRAEF. Yes, Yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map Service.
>
> They apparently thought the work was so super-senstiive that the supervisor and the company owner lied to the Warren Commission about Oswald's access to it.

Or they didn't lie, and Epstein was just wrong.

> MR JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that ?
> MR GRAEF No.
> ( 1 H 191 )
>
> MR JENNER. So anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by a Federal agency ?
> MR STOVALL. Yes, sir.
> MR JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it NOR ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS WORK ?
> MR STOVALL. THIS IS CORRECT.
> ( 10 H 169 )
> Oswald timesheets proved they lied. Oswald and everyone in that building had access to that work. Epstein corroborated those timesheets and the CIA withheld that information from both the Warren Commission and the HSCA. And the bosses at JCS lied to the Commission because they were afraid if the government found out their security was below its requirements, they'd lose their government contracts.

Epstein didn't work at JCS, and therefore could not corroborate anything.

> > You're even dumber than I thought.
> You see a "K" where there is no K and you're calling me dumb ?
> ROFLMAO

Because it is a lowercase letter "k." Apparently, you're too dumb to figure
out your ABCs.

[Hank Sienzant]

Gil?

[Ben Holmes]

On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 04:28:38 -0700 (PDT), Gil Jesus
<gjjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Watch, as Huckster simply runs away...

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:49:27 -0800 (PST), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>
wrote:

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 07:35:05 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:

You've claimed that the "A.B.C.D." in the Autopsy Report is the
description of the *location* of the large head wound.

Yet you refuse time and time again from QUOTING the preceding
paragraph that describes what this ACTUALLY is. Why is that?

You've also claimed that the prosectors dissected the throat wound.

Why do you continue to refuse to cite any evidence for this?

Why have you CONSISTENTLY run away each time I raise this issue?

Now you've quite stupidly insisted that the bullet entered JFK's back,
and exited the back of his head.

More cowardice, more stupidity, more dishonesty.

Are you proud of yourself?

We're waiting for something other than cowardice from Huckster...

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 02:15:00 -0800 (PST), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:58:53 -0800 (PST), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Ben Holmes]

On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 08:12:38 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant

[Ben Holmes]

On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 17:41:22 -0700 (PDT), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 07:30:43 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 18:10:25 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant

Huckster?

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 02:28:10 -0800 (PST), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 15:51:49 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant

[Bud]

Ben the Irrelevant Troll?

[Ben Holmes]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 10:40:40 -0800 (PST), Bud <sirs...@fast.net>

[Hank Sienzant]

Pretty much at this point.

If you remember Anthony Marsh, towards the end of his posting life his posts often made little sense. Some suspected mental impairment of some sort. Perhaps that is happening here with Ben. He fervently believes in a conspiracy, we've known that for a long time. Perhaps he has some condition that prevents him from voicing his concerns in the manner that he can be understood, so he is reduced to doing the best he can with the faculties he has left.

If true, it is sad. No one wants Ben to enunciate his concerns more clearly than I, to form articulate well-reasoned responses complete with citations to the evidence, but it appears he is not capable of doing so, based on his last month or two of repeating the same two posts, or appending those same two posts to brief comments.

Ben to call me a liar and a coward, and repeat his false claims about things I never said.

[NoTrueFlags Here]

Here Hank projects his own dementia onto others. Before you know it he'll be voting for Donald Trump.

[Ben Holmes]

Ben to point out that you're well aware of what category of logical
fallacy you just employed... just to run from your words:

[Hank Sienzant]

I pointed out the evidence leading me to that conclusion (his apparent inability to post anything but the same one post to me, and the same one post to Bud) and I qualified it with, “if true”.
It's neither dementia nor ad hominem.

Case in point: see the response from Ben immediately above this.

[Ben Holmes]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 16:58:44 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant

[Matt Cloud]

Who opened doors for Epstein?

"I had first met Pat in 1966. He had come to Harvard as director of the Joint Center for Urban Studies, where I was studying. ... His generosity toward me, including giving me a party for the completion of my thesis— with guests seating at tables according to whether they liked their steaks rare, medium or well-done— and inviting me to India for Christmas as part of the Star series."

https://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diary/moynihan.htm

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:43:25 -0800 (PST), Matt Cloud
<matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 10:26:41?AM UTC-5, Ben Holmes wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 16:58:44 -0800 (PST), Hank Sienzant
>> <hsie...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> You've claimed that the "A.B.C.D." in the Autopsy Report is the
>> description of the *location* of the large head wound.
>>
>> Yet you refuse time and time again from QUOTING the preceding
>> paragraph that describes what this ACTUALLY is. Why is that?
>>
>> You've also claimed that the prosectors dissected the throat wound.
>>
>> Why do you continue to refuse to cite any evidence for this?
>>
>> Why have you CONSISTENTLY run away each time I raise this issue?
>>
>> Now you've quite stupidly insisted that the bullet entered JFK's back,
>> and exited the back of his head.
>>
>> More cowardice, more stupidity, more dishonesty.
>>
>> Are you proud of yourself?

Non-sequitur deleted.