Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 58)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- The shirt that Lee Oswald was wearing
at the time of his arrest was GRAY.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Bullshit. Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in a
brown shirt, without a SHRED of a doubt.
WC testimony......
DAVID BELIN -- "By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned
a T-shirt in the picture. Do you remember what else he had on?"
GERALD HILL -- "He had on a dark--I don't recall it being a solid
brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and
dark trousers. This I specifically remember."
MR. BELIN -- "Any jacket?"
MR. HILL -- "No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time."
~~~~~~
MR. BELIN -- "Do you remember what clothes he had on?"
C.T. WALKER -- "He had on a white T -shirt under a brown shirt, and a
pair of black pants."
~~~~~~
Were both Hill and Walker telling lies re. the "brown" shirt that LHO
was arrested in? Did they both think that GRAY was BROWN?
And those are just the first two examples of DPD officers' testimony I
checked in this "shirt color" regard. There are probably more.
Also -- Here are the words from two more witnesses re. Oswald's shirt
color at the time of his arrest:
"He had on this brown sports shirt." -- Julia Postal
~~~~~~
"This man was wearing a brown sport shirt." -- Johnny Brewer
(affidavit)
"He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out." -- Johnny
Brewer (to WC)
~~~~~~
Did Oswald enter the theater wearing a BROWN shirt (per Postal and
Brewer), and then change into a GRAY one just minutes later? (But even
that silly assertion wouldn't explain away Hill's and Walker's "brown
shirt" testimony that I just mentioned above.)
And, of course, we have these photos of Oswald taken on November 22,
very shortly after his arrest (do you think these B&W images show LHO
in a GRAY shirt here?)......
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/LHO/oswald09.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/oswald3.jpg
A CT-Kook has struck again....turning the evidence on its head to
satisfy his endless thirst for "conspiracy" -- ANY conspiracy. Even a
"shirt" plot of some kind, where all the cops and regular citizens
like Julia Postal and Johnny Brewer (for some reason) said "brown",
but the shirt (per the above kook) was really "gray".
Go figure kooks.
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CTer -- The shirt that Oswald was wearing as they put him the police
car was GRAY. .... But the DPD and FBI were DESPERATE to prove that
the man that had been murdered in their house, while in their custody,
was the man who murdered JFK. In their desperation they grabbed at any
flimsy piece of evidence they could find to patch up the dam.
DVP -- Yeah, so they (the DPD and/or FBI), somehow, got all the
witnesses to lie about the true color of Oswald's arrest shirt? Is
that what "they" did?
<big laugh>
But just....why? In fact, if Brewer/Postal/Walker/Hill (et al) had
said the shirt was "gray" (which you contend it actually was), it
would probably "align" better with what OTHER witnesses testified to
regarding the clothing color of JFK's assassin in the TSBD -- because
most of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza have said that the TSBD gunman
was wearing a "light-colored" shirt as he shot President Kennedy. And
wouldn't "gray" be closer to "light" than "dark brown"?
I guess the cops just wanted to complicate things some more by
deliberately inserting FALSE AND CONFLICTING (and "coerced", of
course) "brown shirt" testimony into the official record in order to
frame Mr. Oswald.
Go figure.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4dd73f8e676a5db8
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CTer -- I can see that you're awakening to the FACT that the gunman in
the TSBD was wearing light-colored clothing.
DVP -- Sure he was. Oswald was wearing a WHITE T-shirt when he
assassinated John F. Kennedy. Last time I saw, "white" = "light".
It's very possible that Oswald put on his brown shirt (which he could
easily have had right beside him in the Sniper's Nest) only AFTER the
shooting. Makes sense too -- in an "I Want To Change My Appearance A
Little Bit" sort of way.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/305bd715edfa142a
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CTer -- Oswald was wearing a REDDISH BROWN shirt at the time JFK was
shot.
DVP -- How would you know that? You don't think Oswald was the killer
with "light" clothing in the TSBD. So how the hell do you know exactly
what Oswald was wearing when JFK was shot? Via Marrion Baker's
testimony? He's the same cop who many CTers think was a liar (3 times
over), and a guy who a lot of other CTers think was out to get poor
Oswald by rubbing him out (but didn't dare because Roy Truly was
standing right next to him). But you must think Marrion got the shirt
color right at least.
I'm sure that you (Mr. CTer/Hypocrite) will now sprint toward Act #34
of today's play that you're starring in, entitled: "CTer-Invented
Evidence That Never Really Existed, But I'll Say It Did Anyway Because
I'm A Kook".
Act 34 will be worth a laugh...but worth nothing else.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/aaeb4a1389e69938
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CTer -- He {Oswald} CHANGED his shirt in his room at 1:00 PM.
DVP -- I doubt that very much. There's just no really good reason for
him to do so. Oswald threw on a jacket to COVER his shirt (possibly in
an effort to once again change his outward appearance, and also to
hide his revolver more easily, of course). So why change the shirt AND
put a jacket over the NEW shirt?
Another thought regarding the brown shirt of Oswald's.....
It's quite possible that Oswald also used that brown shirt as a
fingerprint-wiping rag as he made his way from the Sniper's Nest to
the stairway on the sixth floor of the Depository, which would explain
how some "fresh" fibers that were consistent with Oswald's brown
arrest shirt ended up on the rifle.
After serving its purpose as a fingerprint-removing rag, the shirt was
then put on by Oswald as he went down the stairs to the second floor.
I also believe this would explain (to a large extent) why Officer
Marrion Baker thought the shirt looked like a "jacket" (via Baker's
11/22 affidavit and his WC testimony).
The shirt, having possibly been put on hastily by LHO, probably wasn't
buttoned up and (via the testimony shown below) was definitely not
tucked into Oswald's pants when Baker saw LHO in the lunchroom. Hence,
the shirt was flapping open, untucked, and could have resembled a
jacket to Baker (who, after all, only saw Oswald for a few fleeting
seconds).
DAVID BELIN -- "Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar
to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar
to either one?"
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0270a.htm
MARRION BAKER -- "Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume
it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face
and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew
him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went
on."
BELIN -- "Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that
correct?"
BAKER -- "Yes, sir."
BELIN -- "Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the
police station?"
BAKER -- "He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out."
BELIN -- "Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen
when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?"
BAKER -- "I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my
recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/182cecc7c4e37bb2
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CTer -- The "fresh" fibers from the shirt were probably wiped onto the
rifle after both items were appropriated by the authorities.
DVP -- LOL. Yeah, that's a lot more reasonable than my theory about
Oswald possibly having used the shirt to wipe fingerprints off of the
rifle. I'll still go with my version though...thanks.
Oswald might very well have had his brown shirt next to him in the SN,
knowing he would be wanting to use it to wipe off fingerprints after
the shooting (should he actually get that far in the day's
proceedings, that is....proceedings that Oswald HAD to know were not
going to be easy to pull off...he would need some very good luck on
his side re. having the whole 6th Floor to himself at just the right
moment; which, unluckily for America, did occur).
I'm also inclined to place a little more faith in Marrion Baker's word
about Oswald's clothing than Mrs. Robert A. Reid's....due to Baker's
specific mentioning of LAYERED clothing (i.e., Baker said that Oswald
had on what seemed to him like "a light brown jacket and maybe some
kind of white-looking shirt").
Yes, I'm "picking and choosing"....but, let's face facts, BOTH Baker
AND Reid cannot both be 100% correct here. Reid sees no "jacket" or
brown outer shirt...but Baker does. And Baker sees Oz BEFORE Reid sees
him. If that were reversed (Reid seeing Oz before Baker), then we
LNers could have our Sara Lee and consume it as well in this "Reid/
Baker Clothing" regard.
But not all witness evidence aligns with each other, as we all know.
So some picking & choosing must be done....or just ignore all
witnesses altogether I guess.
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RE.: OSWALD AND "THE COKE".....
CTer -- Look at Baker's affidavit. He wrote: "drinking a coke".
DVP responses to the "Coke" situation.....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/633bb46c251c4ce9
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/81605bfd7cdcc06a
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/14ab602390b9235c
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f992a250669a6d
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1aa28d171ce21bcd
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e773ad7c636f899d
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2717aa424602e9bf
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CTer -- The preponderance of evidence indicates that Lee Oswald was,
in fact, wearing a brown shirt....while the gunman was wearing a white
shirt.
DVP -- You're attempting to exclude Oswald as the gunman in "white".
But you can't do it. Because Oswald WAS wearing a "white" shirt when
he murdered John F. Kennedy. Of that there is little doubt. (I doubt
that Lee stripped down to nothing before the shooting.)
The "preponderance" of evidence positively shows Lee Harvey Oswald to
be guilty of pulling that trigger at 12:30 on November the 22nd. And
that bothers you terribly.
And, for some reason, you think you KNOW exactly what shirt Oswald had
on at exactly 12:30...even though you admit that you think nobody
actually saw LHO at that precise moment.
How long does it take to throw on a shirt over your T-shirt? Two
seconds? Three? (Especially when we take into account Officer Baker's
testimony of Oz's shirt tail "hanging out"; i.e., Oswald not taking
time to tuck it in...and probably unbuttoned too.)
Try again. Your attempts at exonerating a double-killer fall miles
short of even "pathetic" at this stage.
Try making up a witness who SAW Oswald at 12:30. That might help your
sorry-ass "Anybody Except Oswald" version of events a little more.
After all, the gullible masses will believe ANYTHING -- as evidenced
by how many sheep have been led astray by Oliver Stone's ludicrous
"OSWALD WAS A LONE PATSY BUT WAS ALLOWED TO WANDER AROUND ON HIS OWN"
theory in the "Best Fantasy Film Of 1991".
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/51b89da58d3e6489
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CTer -- Professional killers often use triangulation of fire.
DVP -- Within the context of "LET'S FRAME OZZIE-BOY" plots too??
Great plan there. They complicate things to the Nth degree by shooting
from multiple locations in front of hundreds of witnesses and just
expect all of this to filter down to the "Patsy". That's always
special. And ultra-idiotic to boot.
But...Oliver Stone and Jim "Mega-Kook" Garrison bought this
nonsense...so why not the rest of America, too?!
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9bce073792dae800
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CTer -- The way you write about CE399, you seem to be quite satisfied
it wounded JFK and JBC? Am I perhaps misjudging?
DVP -- No, you're not misjudging at all. I believe that Bullet CE399
positively wounded both John Kennedy and John Connally on
11/22/63...without a shred of a doubt.
Here's why (in a common-sense nutshell):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
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CTer -- Don't you think it is also strange that someone who used a
revolver to shoot someone would then discharge the shells at the crime
scene. I think it is very naive to believe that.
DVP -- Naive or not, Oswald did it nonetheless. Unless you wish to
believe that all of the witnesses who said they SAW the gunman
PHYSICALLY DUMPING SHELLS out of his gun just after J.D. Tippit was
killed were telling the same in-unison lie. (I think it'd be more
naive to believe THAT.)
Your post reminds me of Jim Garrison, and a very similar type remark
that he made in his 1967 Playboy Magazine interview. Garrison actually
had the balls to utter the following nonsense in that national
magazine in '67:
"The clincher, as far as I'm concerned, is that four cartridges were
found at the scene of the {Tippit} slaying. Now, revolvers do not
eject cartridges, so when someone is shot, you don't later find
gratuitous cartridges strewn over the sidewalk -- unless the murderer
deliberately takes the trouble to eject them. We suspect that
cartridges had been previously obtained from Oswald's .38 revolver and
left at the murder site by the real killers as part of the setup to
incriminate Oswald." -- Jim Garrison
~~~~~~
My response to the above silliness espoused by Garrison:
"Absolutely incredible! Garrison obviously could not read. Because
Oswald DID, based on observations of witnesses, "take the trouble to
eject" the empty cartridges from his revolver, and the Warren
Commission said this plain as day on page #168 of the WR. For some
reason, Garrison totally ignored the unimpeachable evidence of
multiple witnesses re. the fact that the killer (later positively
identified as Lee Oswald) was "shaking shells from the gun" as he fled
the Tippit murder scene on foot.
"Mr. Garrison's built-in pro-conspiracy bias vividly shines through
via his remark about the Tippit bullet shells. For, he had to have
known (or should have known) that there were witnesses at the Tippit
murder scene who watched the killer shaking shells out of his
revolver, rendering Garrison's above remarks completely worthless. But
Jim obviously liked his own version of events better than that of the
official WC rendition of what happened. Shouldn't this blatant
distortion of the official record of the Tippit murder cloud just
about everything else Mr. Garrison has to say with respect to the JFK
case?
In my view, yes, it should." -- DVP
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2317ac73008b3c8a
eca...@tx.rr.com
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- Professional killers often use triangulation of fire.
>
> DVP -- Within the context of "LET'S FRAME OZZIE-BOY" plots too??
>
> Great plan there. They complicate things to the Nth degree by shooting
> from multiple locations in front of hundreds of witnesses and just
> expect all of this to filter down to the "Patsy". That's always
> special. And ultra-idiotic to boot.
>
> But...Oliver Stone and Jim "Mega-Kook" Garrison bought this
> nonsense...so why not the rest of America, too?!
>
THANKS David!!
Ed